quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I don't claim to know exactly what is damaging the mummies' hair. All I know is that, according to Brothwell and Spearman, this hair is damaged.
on predynatsic remains
Queen Tiye, 18 dynasties later Imagine the size of the afro were this an afro that "corroded"
watch how Truthcentrick and Djehootie are trying to acquire street cred points in this thread......
carry on.... [/QB]
Not everybody has the same hair texture in Africa. The hair is not straight, it's thick and frizzy!
When is this going to penetrate into your skull?
Posts: 22249 | From: Omni | Registered: Nov 2010
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People don't have green skin. yet an artist can portray Osiris a God that has green skin. The skin is intended to be real green skin that a god might have not that the god wore makeup
Dumbass, skin colors are symbolic! We already have examples of women who are painted yellow even though they may not have been that color in life. As for gods, their skin colors are symbolic of their powers. Green is the color vegetation as Osiris is an agricultural god. Amun is often portrayed as blue as blue is the color of the sky and omniscience. Note the Ausar's wife Aset and her twin sister Nebti behind him both have blue plant wigs NOT hair as not only are they blue colored with no indication of texture but the ends have a gold lining.
quote:
Likewise people don't have blue hair But a god could have blue hair
NO god with an animal head is depicted with hair, dummy! That is my point! It is not hair at all but a headdress!
quote:
Are we looking at a depiction of a mask of Anubis here or is it supposed to be the real Anubis? As we can see by the size of the head it's too small to be a mask on top of a human head. It's the real Anubis, a god with a jackal head on a human body with human hair.
It doesn't matter. Whether it be a man portraying the god with a mask or the god himself, it is NOT hair but a headdress!! I already showed you pictures of the god Horus one with blue headdress, another green, and another multicolored! This is common FACT of Egyptology! I suggest you do research on it before you type any rubbish and spam more pictures.
quote:All Egyptians wore wigs? No, some did others didn't. Look at the mummies of Tiye, Yuya, Thiya, Rameses II and many more with their real hair.
Of course not all Egyptians wore wigs. Wigs in fact are a sign of status as they are in traditional West African cultures. Most common folks didn't wear wigs but their own hair. As for the elite, they either fashioned their own hair and/or wore wigs on top of their hairs.
quote:Is Anubis in the above relief wearing a wig made of plant fiber? Dje-who-ti showed the item below made of plant fiber. Are the fibers all hanging in neat straight rows? No, there is no resemblance. What about the ancient Egyptian wigs we have seen posted? They don't resemble this hair on Anubis
Dumb b|tch, not all plant fibers are the same and not all fibers look alike. I also posted a picture of a West African girl wearing a plant fiber wig that looked nothing like the deity mask!
Even Troll Patrol posted a picture of an Ethiopian man wearing a grass wig that looks like 'straight hair'!
^ All the above wigs are plant fibers but they are all different, stupid ho.
quote:this guy just makes it up as he goes along. Anything that is artistically ambiguous he hiccups "plant fiber"
I'm not making anything up! The problem is you know nothing about traditional African wigs let alone plant wig styles which is again is something African!
quote:Another thing about plant fiber is that if rubbing against bare skin it would scratch...
That would depend on what kind of plant fiber, if the person even has bare skin that is bald scalp underneath the wig, and if they were bald they had lubricant since many Egyptians used butter and beeswax on their scalps.
quote:There are also hair wigs. And as we have seen there are mummies of people who had their own natural hair, Queen Tiye is an example.
Yes but that has no bearing on the totemic animal heads.
quote:lyinass productions 2013 everyday like a bowel movement
flushed down again. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:That is not data it's art. and you are the one that has been saying Egyptians wore wigs. Right there is a problem in knowing what their natural hair was. Further this thread shows when looking at a lot of the art you cannot be certain of what hair type is being shown
.
If you have doubts then you check what visitors to Egypt said. In this case Greek intellectuals such as Herodotus and Aristotle. They had nothing to gain by lying on the type of hair the AEs and Nubians had.
So were the lying when they wrote that the Egyptians and Nubians had woolly hair. Yes or No?
There were 26 AE dynasties and some 330 pharaohs spread over 3000 years plus. A few pharaohs singled out and showed around for propaganda purposes will convince.
Better to get a grasp of what the AEs were by their murals, sculptures, and what the Greeks wrote. And they said--embarrassingly for the Eurocentrics--that the AEs and Nubians shared the same kind of woolly hair. Selecting a few mummies and showing off their supposed natural hair is interesting but implies nothing really.
The Greeks occupied Egypt and knew the land thoroughly. That's why I trust them more on phenotypical appearances than grave robbers and pale-faced Euro excavators.
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quote:Originally posted by Djeshiti: not all plant fibers are the same and not all fibers look alike. I also posted a picture of a West African girl wearing a plant fiber wig that looked nothing like the deity mask!
The hair left on the head is shaved. A special libation, known as triple libation is poured with a cocktail of millet-beer, palm wine and Schnapps. During libation, the god's blessing is asked for the girls. After the parents of the girls present a castrated goat to the Dipo priest for slaughtering, the blood is used in washing the girl's feet, in the belief of washing away any bad omen that might prevent the girls from becoming mothers in future. The 'dipo-yo' is made to sit on a special stool covered with white cloth. Some marks are made on the body with clay. The girls are made to wear the intestines of the goat across their shoulders and taken to a shrine, where they are made to sit on a sacred stone three times. After the ceremony, the girls are carried home amidst jubilation. The remaining hair shaved by the priest are worn like hats by the girls
^^^ proof that Djeshootme makes up stuff, like he knew what that head piece was made of, exposed, not plant fiber
.
Krobo girl, Dipo ceremony
fool, we have seen the Egyptian wigs. They bear no resemblance to what this this girl is wearing. This item sheds no light on Egyptian art.
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: The hair left on the head is shaved. A special libation, known as triple libation is poured with a cocktail of millet-beer, palm wine and Schnapps. During libation, the god's blessing is asked for the girls. After the parents of the girls present a castrated goat to the Dipo priest for slaughtering, the blood is used in washing the girl's feet, in the belief of washing away any bad omen that might prevent the girls from becoming mothers in future. The 'dipo-yo' is made to sit on a special stool covered with white cloth. Some marks are made on the body with clay. The girls are made to wear the intestines of the goat across their shoulders and taken to a shrine, where they are made to sit on a sacred stone three times. After the ceremony, the girls are carried home amidst jubilation. The remaining hair shaved by the priest are worn like hats by the girls ^^^ proof that Djeshootme makes up stuff, like he knew what that head piece was made of, exposed, not plant fiber
First, can you please cite your source. Not that I don't believe what you describe is true, but your mental capacity for basic comprehension seems deficient enough yet you expect I and others to assume you all of a sudden know what the photo of the Krobo girl portrays and the exact cultural context! We know your dumbass is not psychic! So cite the source of your explanation of that photo, plagiarist twit!
Second, I wasn't the one who first posted the picture of the Krobo girl in this forum. Someone else, I believe Tukuler (?) did in another thread a couple of years back when I asked for examples of plant fiber wigs worn by Africans. So if I am mistaken it was due to someone else's mistake.
Either way, it does not change anything I said in regards to totemic gods' headdresses! LOL
Here is another example of a man who wears a similar headdress:
fool, we have seen the Egyptian wigs. They bear no resemblance to what this this girl is wearing. This item sheds no light on Egyptian art.
YOU are the fool! Whether the wig is plant fiber or hair it DOES bear a resemblance to Egyptian wigs only that her's is shorter. Again, you don't know anything about Egyptian wigs!
To intelligent folks, I'm actually surprised that the wig the Krobo girl above wears is made from her own hair which if true must be styled in some way because it looks just like plant fiber of the type that gives a smooth non textured appearance of the type worn by Egyptians.
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ First off, I don't need you to cite your source as I can find it myself. That you have to is based on basic scholarship as well as common courtesy to the author you ripped it off from! Second of all, I have not been flushed by anyone let alone a nincompoop like YOU! LOL
You still have not refuted what I said about totemic animal headed deities not having long hair but wearing plant headdresses or wigs. And you still have not refuted what I said about West Africans wearing black plant fiber wigs that give the (false) impression of straight hair. So I'm still waiting to be 'flushed', b|tch. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ All the above wigs are plant fibers but they are all different, stupid ho.
this is why Djehuti has no credibility he is saying that the above man is wearing a plant fiber wig when in fact he is not wearing something made of plant fiber. He pretends to know what he's talking about.
It's safer not to pretend and rather you think it's made of plant fiber rather than it is made of plant fiber. That way you at last have an out.
But since such wisdom has not been followed another small mammal meal has been provided to the lioness.
You may agree with some of what this Djehutie character says but you also have to watch him. He tries to slip in slick moves.
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean? Its already established that African Americans who straighten their hair don't get round cross sections. This is exactly why hair straightening isn't permanent:
quote:What happens when you relax your hair? The keratin in hair is arranged in bundles. These bundles are held together by chemical bonds called disulphide bonds. These bonds give the hair strength. Relaxers simply break these disulphide bonds and cap them so that they cannot chemically reform. Classically, hair relaxers use a reducer or a base (the opposite of an acid) such as lye (sodium hydroxide) to break and cap these bonds. Unfortunately, sodium hydroxide can burn your skin and damage your hair. That is why some women opt for no-lye relaxers.
Your link does not say that cross-section shape isn't altered by relaxers. The reason the straightening effect isn't permanent if you use certain methods is because only hydrogen bonds are affected, not disulfide bonds. On the other hand, if you do affect the disulfide bonds, the straightening is permanent. It's more to do with which bonds are affected than cross-section shape, I suspect.
quote:You're flattening your hair strand by applying pressure from the outside. This is what scientist would call human intervention; it wouldn't occur in nature. Three questions: 1) what outside pressure reverses this process (this just seems a contradiction), and 2) what naturally occurring mechanical or chemical phenomena precipitates this? 3) why are curly haired mummies found in the same tombs among other individuals with wavy-straight hair, i.e., why did the curly hairs survive the mechanical and chemical alterations despite the shared environmental conditions?
I don't claim to know exactly what is damaging the mummies' hair. All I know is that, according to Brothwell and Spearman, this hair is damaged.
The excerpts talks about how straightening is achieved, and cross-sectional changes aren't listed. You're right that there are permanent straighteners that involve chemical treatments. Let me just alter my statement to say that I don't discount that there are permanent straighteners, just that cross-section changes have nothing to do with the end result. This view should be easily falsifiable. I've tried to falsify it myself in the past and cross-section changes are never listed among the hair changes that underlie chemically straightened hair.
The issue of cuticle damage in and of itself is irrelevant. In fact, non-Egyptian hairs also suffered cuticle damage. Its unreasonable to expect flesh and bone to decay after thousands of years, but not hair. All I care about is whether cuticle damage explains the incidences of wavy straight hair on Egyptian and Nubian mummies, and from the looks of it, it doesn't. I'm not interested in suspicions founded on pre-conceived notions about African variability. Natural mechanical forces don't alter hair in life, so there seems to be no reason why they should alter post-mortem hair.
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^ Yet despite physical decay and deterioration, Euronuts like Lyinass would often point to the complexion of mummies as well as their hair color and texture as 'proof' of something.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass twit: this is why Djehuti has no credibility he is saying that the above man is wearing a plant fiber wig when in fact he is not wearing something made of plant fiber. He pretends to know what he's talking about.
It's safer not to pretend and rather you think it's made of plant fiber rather than it is made of plant fiber. That way you at last have an out.
But since such wisdom has not been followed another small mammal meal has been provided to the lioness.
You may agree with some of what this Djehutie character says but you also have to watch him. He tries to slip in slick moves.
Look here, b|tch. At least I admit when I'm wrong. So the West African girl is not wearing a wig made of plant fibers, maybe not the Ethiopian man either. Your strawman notions about whatever I was wrong about still does NOT refute anything I said about the headdress of totemic deities nor the use of plant fiber wigs among Egyptians just like other Africans.
^ 3 Egyptian gods seated in procession all wearing headdresses-- from right to left-- Ausar with his atef headdress, Djehuti (Thoth) with his blue plant fiber wig or headdress, Hetheru (Hathor) with a black plant fiber wig. Both wigs have gold lined ends.
Here are some Rwandans with plant wigs which if portrayed in ancient art may lead the lyinass idiot to think they were platinum blondes.
Your lyinass is so desperate to cling to whatever small errors on my part to distract from the main point of my argument which I am definitely correct and YOU are wrong.
your productions are crumbling before they are even flushed. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Oromos buy those headdresses from a certain Ethiopian tribe. Rural Ethiopian trade is structured like that, where different ethnic groups are known for, and bring different products to the market. For instance, the Afar are known for mining and selling salt. I believe the hairs are from Lion manes, but don't quote me on that. They're most definitely not plant fibers; its animal hair.
Does anyone have a single image of an undisputed plant fiber wig? Or at least an academic text on this type of headdress, that specifies the African nations that wear/wore this type of wig?
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Those 'dos look almost identical to the traditional Ancient Egyptian hairstyles, but the textures seem dissimilar.
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They are probably emulating a racial type they came into contact with. As early as the 3rd century BC, Callimachus describes female Libyans with flowing blonde hair while fair hair and blue eyed Libyans also appear in earlier Egyptian depictions:
"...the royal necropolis of Thebes of about 1300 B.C., certain Libyans are depicted as having a white skin, blue eyes and fair beards. Blonds are represented on Egyptian monuments from 1700 B.C. and were noted by the Greeks in the fourth century B.C. In the east the blonds have quite died out, but there are patches of this race in the west of North Africa. This fair race still remain an unsolved problem. Some students bring them from Spain, other authors from Italy, others again from the east. Perhaps they were a sporadic invasions and formed an aristocratic class. One suggestion is that they were Proto-Nordics who formed a part of the various groups of Asiatics who raided Egypt about 1300 B.C. and moved westwards." - Alfred Cort Haddon, The Races of Man and Their Distribution (1924), University Press, 1924, p.36
Posts: 873 | From: USA | Registered: Sep 2012
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In the early 20th century much was made over the ancestry of Hetepheres II. A relief from the tomb of her daughter, Meresankh III, depicts the queen with blonde hair.
However, closer inspection reveals that she was not a natural blonde, but rather the owner of a unique and, we can speculate, much coveted blonde wig.
Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262
As Brothwell and Spearman (‘63) point out, reddish-brown ancient hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. This color was seen in a large proportion of the Semna sample, and also noted by Titlbachova and Titlbach (‘77) on Egyptian material, where it also may have resulted from the mummification process. However, the large number of blond hairs that are not associated with the cuticular damage that bleaching produces, probably points to a significantly lighter-haired population than is now present in the Nubian region. Brothwell and Spearman (’63) noted genuinely blond ancient Egyptian samples using reflectance spectrophotometry. Blondism, especially in young children, is common in many darkhaired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages (J. Zabkar, personal communication).
Only one sample (M197) showed cuticular damage and irregularities definitely consistent with bleaching, although bleaching could not be ruled out in some of the blond samples.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yet despite physical decay and deterioration, Euronuts like Lyinass would often point to the complexion of mummies as well as their hair color and texture as 'proof' of something.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass twit: this is why Djehuti has no credibility he is saying that the above man is wearing a plant fiber wig when in fact he is not wearing something made of plant fiber. He pretends to know what he's talking about.
It's safer not to pretend and rather you think it's made of plant fiber rather than it is made of plant fiber. That way you at last have an out.
But since such wisdom has not been followed another small mammal meal has been provided to the lioness.
You may agree with some of what this Djehutie character says but you also have to watch him. He tries to slip in slick moves.
Look here, b|tch. At least I admit when I'm wrong. So the West African girl is not wearing a wig made of plant fibers, maybe not the Ethiopian man either. Your strawman notions about whatever I was wrong about still does NOT refute anything I said about the headdress of totemic deities nor the use of plant fiber wigs among Egyptians just like other Africans.
^ 3 Egyptian gods seated in procession all wearing headdresses-- from right to left-- Ausar with his atef headdress, Djehuti (Thoth) with his blue plant fiber wig or headdress, Hetheru (Hathor) with a black plant fiber wig. Both wigs have gold lined ends.
Here are some Rwandans with plant wigs which if portrayed in ancient art may lead the lyinass idiot to think they were platinum blondes.
Your lyinass is so desperate to cling to whatever small errors on my part to distract from the main point of my argument which I am definitely correct and YOU are wrong.
your productions are crumbling before they are even flushed.
It's intrigue, this ritual is called "war dancing".
Aside from the original topic,
It's interesting, I haven't heard of this or seen this before.
The ballet costume for the Intore men is grass wigs to create a ‘mane’ effect, spears, and bells on each foot to provide the beat of the performance. Women dancers wear traditional shawls wrapped across their bodies in sari fashion. The dancers act out narratives using flapping bird and swimming fish movements, battle cries, leaps, stomps, spins, hand gestures and facial expressions. Together, these create the fictional world—the setting, characters and plot—without any playbill necessary.
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers: They are probably emulating a racial type they came into contact with. As early as the 3rd century BC, Callimachus describes female Libyans with flowing blonde hair while fair hair and blue eyed Libyans also appear in earlier Egyptian depictions
First off, the photos I posted are of Rwandan Bahuma. I seriously doubt their ancient ancestors came into any direct contact with 'Libyans' let alone white people with blonde hair and blue eyes. Note the typical Euronut arrogance and jump to the conclusion that these Africans must somehow be "emulating" a superior Caucasian race! LOL Ironically enough so many cultural traits and affinities to Sub-Saharan 'Negroes' are found in Egypt yet I never hear a peep from you or your Euronut ilk about the supposed 'Caucasian' Egyptians emulating black racial types. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Oromos buy those headdresses from a certain Ethiopian tribe. Rural Ethiopian trade is structured like that, where different ethnic groups are known for, and bring different products to the market. For instance, the Afar are known for mining and selling salt. I believe the hairs are from Lion manes, but don't quote me on that. They're most definitely not plant fibers; its animal hair.
I know men of certain ethnic groups or tribes in Africa would wear lions manes after successfully hunting a lion. Though lion hunting has been outlawed in most if not all countries, and I haven't heard of the tradition being practiced lately in Africa. These reasons plus the fact that certain thin grasses look like long hair or fur led me to believe the Ethiopian man might be wearing a headdress of grass though now that you mention it, it does look a lot like mane fur.
quote:Does anyone have a single image of an undisputed plant fiber wig? Or at least an academic text on this type of headdress, that specifies the African nations that wear/wore this type of wig?
There's one website that features examples of traditional African wigs made from artificial materials like plant fiber, right here!
^ All of the examples though are of braided types. I am still in search of pictures of plant fiber wigs that look like Egyptian 'straight hair'.
I first learned about plant fiber wigs many years back when I began learning about Egypt's African identity, specifically when I read Diop's African Origins book where he pointed out that the Egyptian wigs that gave a jet-straight haired appearance were in fact not made of hair at all but plant fibers. He even said that such type wigs were used in various cultures in West Africa including his own Wolof culture but unfortunately the tradition is dying out due to takeover of foreign influences whether Islamic or Western. Only in rural parts or in communities that are the most conservative is the tradition of making such wigs still alive. Still I am looking for modern day examples.
Unfortunately, pictures of traditional African wigs regardless of its material are sorely lacking in the internet. This is hardly surprising considering that the tradition of African wigs (outside of ancient Egypt) is virtually unheard of outside of Africa let alone by Westerners. As I said, I didn't even know that the wig-wearing custom of Egyptians was African until I read Diop's work.
^ The reason why I thought the West African Krobo girl above could be wearing an example of such a wig was because a couple of years back on a thread about African hairstyles I inquired if someone had a picture of plant fiber hairpieces and someone either Zarahan, Troll Patrol, or Tukuler answered with that picture. Looking at the texture you can understand why I thought that was the case.
Speaking of which...
Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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LOL You dishonest, plagiarist, troll! You didn't think I would find the source of your quotes. Again basic scholarship tells one to cite the source of a quote that obviously isn't yours.
By the way, I still question whether what you cited below actually describes the girls in the two photos.
The hair left on the head is shaved. A special libation, known as triple libation is poured with a cocktail of millet-beer, palm wine and Schnapps. During libation, the god's blessing is asked for the girls. After the parents of the girls present a castrated goat to the Dipo priest for slaughtering, the blood is used in washing the girl's feet, in the belief of washing away any bad omen that might prevent the girls from becoming mothers in future. The 'dipo-yo' is made to sit on a special stool covered with white cloth. Some marks are made on the body with clay. The girls are made to wear the intestines of the goat across their shoulders and taken to a shrine, where they are made to sit on a sacred stone three times. After the ceremony, the girls are carried home amidst jubilation. The remaining hair shaved by the priest are worn like hats by the girls
Yet here are the girls just before they drink their libations.
Something is amiss in the desperate lyinass google-search explanation. Posts: 26507 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The following screenshots are citations that describe the hair types found on individuals interred in areas that are (mostly) directly below the 1st cataract:
the charts that had hair types that were once in this thread were they from
The Archological Survey of Nubia: Report For 1907-1908 -G. Elliot Smith,F. Wood Jones
Crania Ćgyptiaca, or, Observations on Egyptian ethnography -Samuel George Morton
______________________
or from another source?
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Both. The former source supplied most descriptions while the latter source contained just a couple, IIRC.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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I was looking in both documents for the charts you had up. Are they in there exactly as you had them posted, as a screen shot of the document? Or did you make the chart based on the books data?
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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But to answer your question, no, the tables aren't in the books. I congregated all the relevant text that was accessible from books.google and plugged them into the tables I had posted at the time.
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well, I thought it was going to be easy. Do you still have these tables? Can you repost them? This is a uniquely formatted piece of information that would be good to have up on the internet. A repost in any form would be good. Ideally it should be all in one piece with the sources printed on it, possibly with page references as well (but not absolutely necessary) Thanks if you can do it. If you had what you had before I can put it together as one graphic and then get your approval on it.
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Had to really dig in the crates to retrieve these. You owe me one, lioness. Save these from now on, please. Yes, I posted it and I'm responsible for sourcing the data, but the references were posted.
Only the top reference (p19) was taken from Samuel Morton's "Crania Aegyptiaca". All the other references were taken from the other book.
The latter book consists of several volumes. With the descriptions and their book pages, I think you can take the legwork over from here on and find the book pages of interest.
Side note: more descriptions were given of hair textures of possibly Nubian individuals in Crania Aegyptiaca (the ones in Philae), but I omitted them because I don't know it's settlement history and it's a border town. The individuals could have easily been Egyptians or partly Egyptian. This thread was about (lower) Nubians.
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I just googled some of the descriptions hoping to get the other (missing) books.google pages, but with no success. The book's previews don't even seem to be available anymore. But maybe you'll have more luck, lioness.
Just to address questions some may have:
Most examples of the non-ulotrichous hair forms of individuals with ostensibly Nile Valley origins (i.e. excluding the so-called "alien" types [which are more common in the common era period, especially the Christian period]) seem restricted to individuals phenotypically identified as belonging to "Egyptian" and "Nubian" types, like this:
p137
"1. Young woman: hair has been black and wavy: the face is of the Nubian type. The third molar teeth are still deep in the alveolus. Three of the first molars are carious. (...)"
p137
"Man, found in empty tomb: probably modern Nubian. Skull: L. over scalp 169, B. (over scalp) 138--index 82. The beard is scanty and confined to the chin and the ramus of the mandible; the hair on the upper lip is scanty. The scalp hair is wavy."
Visually speaking (and this can be gathered from descriptions in the saved book pages I still have), the "Egyptian" type described by the physical anthropologist (presumably Elliot Smith), approximates this:
It's basically the most representative-looking ancient Egyptian cranium, with the least visible "negroid", Maghrebi, Levantine, etc. admixture (a common practice back then was study populations by identifying distinct looking racial types perceived to be representatives of different pure, pre-existing racial sources). I don't know what the author's "Nubian" type corresponds to, but it's at least somewhat different given the non-overlapping and deliberate use of both labels. The author acknowledges that both have a common origin in a "Hamitic" ancestral population, so they were probably just thought to be two varieties of the same "race".
Aside from the aforementioned conceptual "Egyptian", "Nubian" and "Alien" types, there were apparently also visibly "negroid"-looking remains with non-ulotrichious hair forms. Here is one, for instance:
p118
quote: "28 contained an aged woman very like No. 27 [Note: No. 27 was described as "negroid" looking in the previous paragraph], with a rounded oval cranium: nose negroid: only 6 teeth remaining and the alveolar process of the rest of the jaw absorbed: all sutures closes: hair black and wavy (..)"
Cautionary tale for confused individuals who see this diversity in hair forms as confirmation of their Eurocentric ideas. These are native African physiognomies and can be seen today on certain living Egyptians (although they're coupled with more non-African DNA, today). These Egyptians are clearly different from the average living Egyptian (i.e. the ones who look like Hosni Mubarak:
Since the preview of "The Archaeological Survey of Nubia, Report For 1907-1908" in books.google seems to be gone, I'll make the pages I have saved (>30 pages) available on request. They're mostly dry descriptions that most here would not be interested in, so I won't post them.
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You all do know Neanderthals were GG for EDAR370. Meaning ancient “humans” most likely had thick straight hair. Meaning modern humans most like left Africa with thick straight hair.
Thick straight hair although uncommon in Africa today was apparently common in African genetic history. FYI.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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I think the mutation in the EDAR gene you're referring to just codes for thick hair (among other things), not straight hair. From what I recall, West Eurasians don't have the mutated gene at sufficient levels to explain the ubiquitous non-ulotrichous hair forms in that region.
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Agreed. Thick/Straight hair may be cumulative due to different genes just as pigmentation. But many scientist characterize Native American/Asian hair texture EDAR. And of course shovel teeth comes into play.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think the mutation in the EDAR gene you're referring to just codes for thick hair (among other things), not straight hair. From what I recall, West Eurasians don't have the mutated gene at sufficient levels to explain the ubiquitous non-ulotrichous hair forms in that region.
posted
Of all the densely pigmented people in the world, it seems to be to be the case that mostly Sub-Saharan Africans, some native Oceanians and some South Asians (e.g. Andaman Islanders) have tightly curled hair. The original dark skinned Khuzistanis ("Elamites"), Arabs, Sumerians, etc.--all dark skinned groups closer to the African continent--seem to have had curly and wavy-straight hair forms.
Possible scenarios re: the origin and spread of hair forms:
1) The mtDNA M and N OOA migrations were composed of distinct waves, with the populations in some waves being predominately ulotrichous and others predominantly non-ulotrichous (unlikely IMO, because M and N were too related at the time for such a pattern to already exist by then).
2) Ulotrichous dark skinned populations in Asia carry additional, post-OOA genes from an ulotrichous (e.g. a Sub Saharan or pre-Toba OOA AMH) source population (unlikely IMO, because OOA populations have similar amounts of shared genetic drift).
3) OOA populations were originally mostly non-ulotrichous, but selection acted on the ancestors of some of the living dark skinned Eurasians, causing them to lose their wavy-straight hair forms. Some dark skinned Asians then reacquired alleles for straight hair at some later point. Australian wavy-straight hair can almost certainly be explained this way; sister populations related to them, with no detectable admixture (e.g. Papuans and Tasmanians), have ulotrichous hair. This possibly explains South Asian examples of non-ulotrichous hair forms as well, given what we know about the phenotypes of groups who are almost purely ASI (e.g. Onge); they have tightly curled hair, like most SSAs.
4) OOA populations were originally all ulotrichous. Non-ulotrichous phenotypes emerged in one or more lineages after OOA. The ancestors of living dark skinned Eurasian groups with ulotrichous hair forms then absorbed populations with the alleles for straight hair. This scenario would also explain the Australian and South Asian wavy-straight hair forms. It's plausible, but wavy-straight hair is present in both East and West Eurasians. The latter split happened very early after the first OOA subgroups (ancestors of Oceanians) started departing from the main OOA stem. This would give wavy straight hair a very narrow window of time to emerge in Eurasians after OOA.
5) mtDNA M and N OOA groups acquired straight hair alleles from contact with North African MSA groups (e.g. Aterians, Nubian complex people) when they arrived in North Africa from the south, or, alternatively, from Neanderthals in the Levant, as soon as they left Africa. This scenario is compatible with scenario 3.
Anyone willing to try narrowing these down with clever arguments?
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Thick hair can be straight.
"Thick" in this case means thick individual hair strands, like this extreme case:
The genome of a man who lived on the western coast of Greenland some 4,000 years ago has been decoded, thanks to the surprisingly good preservation of DNA in a swatch of his hair so thick it was originally thought to be from a bear.
But yeah, thick hair strands can be straight. In the case of East Asians thick and straight hair strands are dominant.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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The density of someone’s hair refers to how much hair exists in an area on the scalp. For example, if you take one inch of a person’s head, hold the hair and see a lot of bare scalp, that person has very thin hair. Density can be either thin, medium, or thick depending on how much scalp is visible. Texture, however, refers to the actual hair strand itself. If an individual hair strand is very large in circumference, we would call that a coarse hair strand. If a hair strand is incredibly skinny in width, we would call that a fine hair strand. It’s important to note that someone can have very thick hair in density, but fine strands in texture.
posted
Yes, that may be what TP was talking about--hair density. But when people mention the EDAR gene in relation to East Asians, they're talking about hair strand thickness and a larger follicle size.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Agreed. Thick/Straight hair may be cumulative due to different genes just as pigmentation. But many scientist characterize Native American/Asian hair texture EDAR. And of course shovel teeth comes into play.
You may be right, bro. Seems like there is some parallel evolution going on in Europe and East Asia, with both regions having their own variants. The derived EDAR variant may be one of these on the East Asian side. But, given the fact that the recently discovered European variant only explains ~6%, it says little about the hair texture of early OOA groups.
Quote: "These variants are at their highest frequency in Northern Europeans, paralleling the distribution of the straight-hair EDAR variant in Asian populations."
Source: Common Variants in the Trichohyalin Gene Are Associated with Straight Hair in Europeans
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I know I recently shared a study in the Facebook group showing that there were certain morphological differences between "kinky" African and Melanesian hairs, so it's possible Melanesian forms may not simply reflect a holdover from OOA.
Regardless, I say we consider that straighter hair forms are the norm across primates, and that the "kinky" form appears unique to the human lineage. Whatever selected for these differences in hair texture, could it be that the genetic potential for straighter hair has still been inherited by all human populations (even African on es), and it just took certain conditions to turn this inherited potential back on? If so, this could mean reversions to non-kinky hair could have happened all over the place bot within and outside of Africa. Your thoughts?
Posts: 7225 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yes, that may be what TP was talking about--hair density. But when people mention the EDAR gene in relation to East Asians, they're talking about hair strand thickness and a larger follicle size.
- Hair strand thickness IS folicle size, that is not "and" it's the same thing
-A distinguishing feature of East Asian hair is it's SHAPE which determines texture : straight, wavy, curly, tight coil East Asian hair has a circular cross section and that makes it's shape straight cross section strand SHAPE determines TEXTURE
-The third factor is DENSITY, not shown on the chart, and density here is not determined by TEXTURE (STRAND SHAPE) Density means how many of these individual strands are clustered in a given area of the scalp
So if someone says a person going bald has "thinning" hair it can lead to confusion bcause they are really talking about density. The balding person could have thick hair (individual strand) or thin hair (individual strand) yet be losing density the same way
So to be clear in a scientifc dsicussion the following could be used
Texture Type (straight, wavy, curly, spiral coiled)
Folicle size (large 'coarse' strand or samll 'fine' strand)
Density (high or low)
________________
by excluding "thick" and "thin" as terms there is less room for unclearity
Posts: 43114 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
To name an analogous situation (i.e. genetic potential for certain phenotypes lying within organisms that don't necessarily express those phenotypes):
quote:Previous authors noted that ornithischian quills/protofeathers were morphologically distinct from those in theropods [6,19]. Our analyses support suggestions that these features should not be regarded a priori as homologous with theropod epidermal structures: ornithischian quills/protofeathers plausibly represent epidermal structures that evolved independently, and may be indicative of a more general ornithodiran tendency to experiment with epidermal features. The latter possibility is suggested by: possession of feathers and protofeathers in theropods [2–5]; presence of filamentous coverings in at least some pterosaurs [18]; and development of elaborate midline scale frills in hadrosaurs and sauropods (electronic supplementary material, S1). As archosaur scales, claws and feathers are composed of β-keratins [20,21], it is possible that the elaboration of all complex ornithodiran epidermal structures was underpinned by the same developmental and regulatory mechanisms ([22]: which, for unknown reasons, were not expressed in the majority of non-coelurosaurian dinosaurs). Molecular phylogenies of β-keratin families indicate that those found in feathers are the latest diverging among archosaurs and may not have appeared prior to the evolution of crown birds, whereas scale and ‘feather-like’ β-keratins diverged earlier [21]. This suggests a scenario in which scales and feather-like structures may have appeared (and diversified) via numerous independent acquisitions in Ornithodira, with true feathers appearing only in birds and their proximate theropod outgroups.
And that study on African and Melanesian hair I invoked previously:
quote:Although hair form has received much attention in the past, it has rarely been studied systematically, and never using direct curling variables. In the present study, seven groups were scored on eight variables, including four newly-devised curling variables. These data were analyzed using univariate and multivariate techniques to give information about the population relations and mechanisms of hair form. “Racial” groups were separated using a principal components analysis. African and Melanesian populations were shown to have significantly different quantitative hair form traits, especially in regard to their regularity of curvature. The physiological, environmental, and genetic factors contributing to hair form variation are discussed.
Posts: 7225 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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If I'm reading your comment correctly, I think per Mendelian and classical genetics, the answer is no. According to these schools of thought there is no dormant potential for straight hair in curly haired populations. Once a population becomes fixed for an allele, the genetic variation at that locus gets lost forever. But new (read: old, but often ignored) data shows that there is much more to the genome when it comes to gene expression (as well as gene inheritance). I'm not up to date on that. Good suggestion though. It's often overlooked in population genetics.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
Unlike EDAR 1540C allele, no extended LD was observed from rs4752566-T allele of FGFR2 in CHB+JPT (Figures 1b and c), suggesting that the higher population frequency of rs4752566-T in CHB+JPT than YRI and CEU has not been attained by recent positive selection. As rs4752566-T is observed in YRI (Table 1), a mutation of rs4752566-T appears to predate the ‘out-of-Africa’ event of modern humans. Thus, high interpopulation differentiation of rs4752566 may have been caused by random genetic drift, although it is difficult to fully exclude the possibility of positive selection having acted in ancestors of East Asian origin because the extended LD, as a signature of positive selection, is difficult to be detected for a standing allele such as rs4752566-T.6
As EDAR 1540C allele is almost absent in African and European ancestors,7 the mutation is considered to have occurred in the ancestors of Asian after the split from the ancestors of European origin. Thus, the possibility of local adaptation or positive selection related to hair thickness in non-Asian populations could not be discussed in our previous study.2, 3 If thicker hair is always advantageous in humans, an allele associated with thicker hair is expected to be highly frequent in all the populations where it exists. The rs4752566-T allele, which was found to be associated with hair thickness has lower population frequency in YRI and CEU (Table 1), implying that thicker hair may have been less advantageous in the African and European than in East Asian populations or selection intensity may be different among populations.
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Thick hair can be straight.
"Thick" in this case means thick individual hair strands, like this extreme case:
The genome of a man who lived on the western coast of Greenland some 4,000 years ago has been decoded, thanks to the surprisingly good preservation of DNA in a swatch of his hair so thick it was originally thought to be from a bear.
But yeah, thick hair strands can be straight. In the case of East Asians thick and straight hair strands are dominant.
Yes, I suspected that. So what you say is that the diameter of the hair is being measured.
The strained thickness. It causes the hair to be more stiff. I know this from Asian friends. At one time I heard a Afgan dude also mentioning this. He say my hair is so "hard".
I had white Dutch friends explaining that their hair is different from Germans hair texture. And how Germans have even "softer / thinner hair."
Then my cousin used to be a barber, he told me about the hair textures of kinky hair. Going from loose and soft to extremely coiled. I do think it is due to the follicle size.
Moral of the story, hair is more complex than we consider it to be.
In general these are the hair types known. I will try to find more info on the follicle size.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yes, that may be what TP was talking about--hair density. But when people mention the EDAR gene in relation to East Asians, they're talking about hair strand thickness and a larger follicle size.
- Hair strand thickness IS folicle size, that is not "and" it's the same thing
-A distinguishing feature of East Asian hair is it's SHAPE which determines texture : straight, wavy, curly, tight coil East Asian hair has a circular cross section and that makes it's shape straight cross section strand SHAPE determines TEXTURE
-The third factor is DENSITY, not shown on the chart, and density here is not determined by TEXTURE (STRAND SHAPE) Density means how many of these individual strands are clustered in a given area of the scalp
So if someone says a person going bald has "thinning" hair it can lead to confusion bcause they are really talking about density. The balding person could have thick hair (individual strand) or thin hair (individual strand) yet be losing density the same way
So to be clear in a scientifc dsicussion the following could be used
Texture Type (straight, wavy, curly, spiral coiled)
Folicle size (large 'coarse' strand or samll 'fine' strand)
Density (high or low)
________________
by excluding "thick" and "thin" as terms there is less room for unclearity
quote:"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories.
Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable".
--Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
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