quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, ever since Reisner's findings I've noticed a lot of old sources I've read on Nubia love to make a distinction between lower Nubia and upper Nubia with the former being closely related to Egyptians and thus 'caucasoid' while the latter is 'negroid'. In fact I remember years ago reading a passage from Rex Keating's book Nubian Twilight where he describes tribute in the form of cattle and slaves from Nubia. From Lower Nubia these were slaves but from Upper Nubia these were 'negro' slaves. LOL
Anyway as far as features go, Lower Nubians even in recent literature are stereotyped as being taller and darker than even Upper Egyptians but with more pronounced "caucasian" features like narrower noses and thinner lips.
That's because the Euronuts realize deep down that there would have to be genetic blending between the Egyptians and Nubians, so they want to move the point where K-zoids grade into Black people somewhere in Lower Nubia in order to free their Egyptians of as much Black ancestry as possible.
Posts: 7213 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean ''how do they designate the term ''wavy and curly''? The same way you would when you know what the terms mean according to their definition, and apply them in the real world. I find it interesting that both you and Dana question their ability to designate wavy, but not their ability to designate peppercorn hair. Surely, someone incapable of diagnosing the former, cannot be trusted diagnosing the latter, yet attention is focused on wavy, why?
Peppercorn as a designation is more precise as compared to "wavy and curly."
quote:By definition it is impossible for someone to have kinky, yet wavy long and flowing hair.
Why, and who's definition are you going by; your own or the scientists? As stated by the scientists some samples had hair clearly defined as crispy curled (p118) and even frizzy (p125), all terms used to additionally describe the hair of black peoples yet simply because these samples show hair which gravitate away from samples showing peppercorn hair they are not illustrated as "typically negro."
quote:Don't let that stop you from posting examples though, I'd appreciate pics of African people with kinky hair whose hair form matches your description.
With regard to your request:
quote:
These girls are a good case in point. Their hair is kinky, long, and wavy textured.
quote:Yes, and that isn't the only questionable term they've been sprinkling around. However, how that effects the hair descriptons being made, I have yet to see.
It doesn't, although the usage of the word "typical" together with the racial label "negro" when describing hair is unnecessary if you ask me. I don't see them interjecting non "negro" racial labels and together applying the word "typical" in report of their other samples.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Peppercorn as a designation is more precise as compared to "wavy and curly."
No, it isn’t. Can you provide the meaning of each of the words?
quote:Why, and who's definition are you going by; your own or the scientists?
Because kinky hair means tightly curled, and wavy hair doesn’t spiral in a circular manner, at all. You’ve already made your mind up about a deviation between ''my'' definition of the word, and how the scientists have used it. What evidence do you have for this, and what are other definitions of wavy hair, for them to follow other than the one used by anyone with basic knowledge of hair form?
quote:As stated by the scientists some samples had hair clearly defined as crispy curled (p118) and even frizzy (p125), all terms used to additionally describe the hair of black peoples
Yes, and if you notice, the descriptions add further weight to the idea that they were not applied by someone not versed in the basics of hair. The descriptions can be added to a spectrum of hair forms that go from peppercorn to straight, and covering (mostly) everything within it. They also correctly make distinctions between loosely curled and tightly curled, and thereby, correctly identiying both hair forms as continuous, under the curly header.
quote:With regard to your request:
The first two pics don’t show kinky hair, and appear to fall in between wavy and straight. Difficult to tell whether some of it is loosely curled or wavy because their hair is braided, stretched and flattened on their scalp. The girl in the last picture definitely has kinky hair, no indication of loosely curled hair whatsoever, let alone wavy hair. I don’t mean to be rude, but after posting the bottom pic, I wonder what makes you suspect the authors definition of the descriptions may need polishing, and not your own.
quote:It doesn't, although the usage of the word "typical" together with the racial label "negro" when describing hair is unnecessary if you ask me. I don't see them interjecting non "negro" racial labels and together applying the word "typical" in report of their other samples.
The reports often mention ''typical Nubian'', and ''typical Egyptian'' in reference to the impression imparted by the crania, so to be fair, they were applying ''typical'' to things other than what they considered ''negro''. But those descriptions are all equally dubious and oudated.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
In regards to the lady in the last picture, although it's not as clear because of the small size it appears that she has curly hair though it looks like it may have been altered by something like a hot iron.
By the way, the look reminds me of the sort of wigs worn by ancient Egyptian women.
LOL @ the white woman playing the part.
Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
I wonder if their wigs really looked like that, or whether it changed in some way shape or form throughout time. I can't imagine that something as big, bulky and messy as that would've been seen as attractive, and similar wigs in their art look much more attractive for some reason (minus the crown):
We know they also made other wigs, think Maherpri, and those look much more realistic, and like what we today would call a non-recreational wig. The wig above and the wig of the Amun priest you've posted earlier look more like something thats a part of costume, but hey, thats just my opinion.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No, it isn’t. Can you provide the meaning of each of the words?
Why should my definition of each words be provided?
"Wavy" as a meaning can have many interpretations. The same cannot be said for peppercorn hair, a label marked by clear expression and detail.
quote:Because kinky hair means tightly curled, and wavy hair doesn’t spiral in a circular manner, at all. You’ve already made your mind up about a deviation between ''my'' definition of the word, and how the scientists have used it. What evidence do you have for this, and what are other definitions of wavy hair, for them to follow other than the one used by anyone with basic knowledge of hair form?
If kinky hair can be so tightly curled in a manner to give a peppercorn appearance for what reason can the same not be said to the contrary > kinks are looser in a manner for a wavy appearance? I was basing my presumption on whatever way you or the scientists define the words. When looking at the survey, descriptions of the hair structure can be generally understood within the range, still i would say their description of just wavy for instance is open to more than one interpretation. Under the wavy header it would great if the authors could have touched more on these variances: e.g.; "moderately" -to- "very" wavy as they did when describing other hair forms e.g. "crispy" -to- "loosely" curly et al.
quote:The first two pics don’t show kinky hair, and appear to fall in between wavy and straight. Difficult to tell whether some of it is loosely curled or wavy because their hair is braided, stretched and flattened on their scalp.
Aside from their hair being fashionably done, you can observe kinky strands of hair sticking out from the other part of girl's hair being stretched. For this reason their hair is naturally kinky and the straightness of their hair is unnatural. Constant tending to their hair in such a fashion has achieved a state you view not of the kinky variety but wavy and straight.
quote:The girl in the last picture definitely has kinky hair, no indication of loosely curled hair whatsoever, let alone wavy hair. I don’t mean to be rude, but after posting the bottom pic, I wonder what makes you suspect the authors definition of the descriptions may need polishing, and not your own.
Leastwise, we both agree on her hair being kinky. And in my opinion i would go on further to say her hair is long, flowing and even qualifies as wavy in its own right as i mentioned earlier. I hope i'm also not coming off as attacking you personally just offering an opinion. Your survey is useful. If only there were pics.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged |
Supposing it was natural or altered, I don't see how any of that is important. It's her hair. It's long, flowing, wavy and most importantly kinky in texture.
quote:In regards to the lady in the last picture, although it's not as clear because of the small size it appears that she has curly hair though it looks like it may have been altered by something like a hot iron.
I couldn't help but notice how you described her hair as curly. and being reminiscent of kmtian / egyptic hairstyles. Interesting. Makes me wonder if some of the samples in the survey had hair in a similar manner as the ladys hair in the pic.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:If kinky hair can be so tightly curled in a manner to give a peppercorn appearance for what reason can the same not be said to the contrary > kinks are looser in a manner for a wavy appearance?
Because you’d be venturing outside of the definition of kinky hair: KINKY 1. Slang given to unusual, abnormal, or deviant sexual practices 2. Informal exhibiting unusual idiosyncrasies of personality; quirky; eccentric 3. Informal attractive or provocative in a bizarre way kinky clothes 4. tangled or tightly looped, as a wire or rope 5. tightly curled, as hair
quote:I was basing my presumption on whatever way you or the scientists define the words. When looking at the survey, descriptions of the hair structure can be generally understood within the range, still i would say their description of just wavy for instance is open to more than one interpretation. Under the wavy header it would great if the authors could have touched more on these variances: e.g.; "moderately" -to- "very" wavy as they did when describing other hair forms e.g. "crispy" -to- "loosely" curly et al.
Wavy hair form has more of a distinct pattern. Hair either zig zags in an ’’S’’ shape (wavy), coils in a helix shape (loose curly or tight curly) or requires very long length to notice a curve (curved or straight hair).
quote:Aside from their hair being fashionably done, you can observe kinky strands of hair sticking out from the other part of girl's hair being stretched.
Already commented on those particular hairs, and from what’s observable from behind my screen they’re are tiny S shaped (wavy) patterns, not helix patterns. This could be because their hair is streched, which if true, would disqualify their hair from being wavy. The overal picture one gets though, is that stretching has nothing to do with some of their scalp region hair looking S shaped.
quote:For this reason their hair is naturally kinky and the straightness of their hair is unnatural. Constant tending to their hair in such a fashion has achieved a state you view not of the kinky variety but wavy and straight.
There is absolutely no ounce of truth to the above. African American women tend to their hair all the time, spend more money on hair products than most Euro-American women. Nowhere will you find their hair achieving an unnatural straight state, because of ’’constant tending’’. Your constant use of kinky to refer to their hair, or to wavy hair, shows you don’t really know what that term means. Their hair is not kinky, it is obviously no different from hair of many eurasians.
quote:Leastwise, we both agree on her hair being kinky. And in my opinion i would go on further to say her hair is long, flowing and even qualifies as wavy in its own right as i mentioned earlier. I hope i'm also not coming off as attacking you personally just offering an opinion. Your survey is useful. If only there were pics.
You don’t come off as attacking, but I am puzzled as to why you would question the descriptions, if you don’t really know what the descriptions mean?
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
what country are these girls from and what is the source of the photo? can it be assumed that they have naturally wavy straight hair that hangs down and has been braided or that they have afro-kinky hair that has been straightened or that they are purely African in ancestry?
Posts: 43094 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ ah STFU since you apparently did not comprehend any of the info in the first page.
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): @ Djehuti,
Supposing it was natural or altered, I don't see how any of that is important. It's her hair. It's long, flowing, wavy and most importantly kinky in texture.
Again I don't know about it being necessarily kinky but yes it is her hair. This also makes me wonder if Egyptian women (at least those who didn't shave) did things to alter their hair like using some sort of ancient version of hot irons.
quote:I couldn't help but notice how you described her hair as curly. and being reminiscent of kmtian / egyptic hairstyles. Interesting. Makes me wonder if some of the samples in the survey had hair in a similar manner as the lady's hair in the pic.
I used 'curly' to describe it because that is what it is.
^ If you look closely at left of the picture-- the girl's right side-- you can see a couple of strands that are loose curls. This same exact hair texture can be seen on these banqueting ladies.
Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: There is definitely a semblance there.
I wonder if their wigs really looked like that, or whether it changed in some way shape or form throughout time. I can't imagine that something as big, bulky and messy as that would've been seen as attractive, and similar wigs in their art look much more attractive for some reason (minus the crown):
We know they also made other wigs, think Maherpri, and those look much more realistic, and like what we today would call a non-recreational wig. The wig above and the wig of the Amun priest you've posted earlier look more like something that's a part of costume, but hey, that's just my opinion.
Egyptian wig styles like all fashion styles varied with the times, though what remained constant was that larger more elaborate wigs reflected higher status. Such large wigs were usually composed of the hairs of multiple individuals. Of course in death an elite member was usually buried with smaller more realistic head pieces so as not to take so much space in a sarcophagus.
As for the Amun priest wigs, yes they were worn during special religious occasions. In fact, I'm automatically reminded of Discovery Channel's 'Nefertiti Resurrected' which featured the Amun chief priest wearing a gigantic afro wig! LOL No wonder the Euronuts are mad.
Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^So the Amun wig was worn for religious purposes only? Since physically acting out the reputed behaviors of deities was a big part of AE religion and ceremony, I wonder if the hair texture of the wig has anything to do with him wanting to look more like the conceptualised Amun, to add more umph to his religious ceremonies.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Originally posted by Djehuti: Yes, ever since Reisner's findings I've noticed a lot of old sources I've read on Nubia love to make a distinction between lower Nubia and upper Nubia with the former being closely related to Egyptians and thus 'caucasoid' while the latter is 'negroid'. In fact I remember years ago reading a passage from Rex Keating's book Nubian Twilight where he describes tribute in the form of cattle and slaves from Nubia. From Lower Nubia these were slaves but from Upper Nubia these were 'negro' slaves. LOL
^^Typical hypocrisy and double standards, even though they had evidence way back then that the Nubians were the closest people ethnically to the Egyptians.
Definitely all Nubian...
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Let's remember that for the longest time from the advent of Egyptology in the 1800s the Egyptians were classified by Western anthropologists as being of the 'Abyssinian type'.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^So the Amun wig was worn for religious purposes only?...
I would assume so since all Egyptian priests usually went about with clean shaven heads wearing no wigs at all.
quote:Since physically acting out the reputed behaviors of deities was a big part of AE religion and ceremony, I wonder if the hair texture of the wig has anything to do with him wanting to look more like the conceptualised Amun, to add more umph to his religious ceremonies.
I've always wondered about that myself. I have never seen any depictions of the god Amun with an afro. What I do find interesting as I pointed out in another thread is that the Amun priest wigs remind me of Beja warrior hairstyles featuring an Afro with braids hanging down the back. This makes me wonder if the cult of Amun may have some roots in the eastern desert among proto-Beja or Beja predecessors.
Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Let's remember that for the longest time from the advent of Egyptology in the 1800s the Egyptians were classified by Western anthropologists as being of the 'Abyssinian type'.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^So the Amun wig was worn for religious purposes only?...
I would assume so since all Egyptian priests usually went about with clean shaven heads wearing no wigs at all.
quote:Since physically acting out the reputed behaviors of deities was a big part of AE religion and ceremony, I wonder if the hair texture of the wig has anything to do with him wanting to look more like the conceptualised Amun, to add more umph to his religious ceremonies.
I've always wondered about that myself. I have never seen any depictions of the god Amun with an afro. What I do find interesting as I pointed out in another thread is that the Amun priest wigs remind me of Beja warrior hairstyles featuring an Afro with braids hanging down the back. This makes me wonder if the cult of Amun may have some roots in the eastern desert among proto-Beja or Beja predecessors.
May be of use here:
It may seem surprising, but there is a strong ancient tradition linking the white crown to Upper Nubia. In the first century BC, Diodorus Siculus (3.2.1–3.6) wrote that at the beginning of time the Egyptians and Nubians (‘Aithiopians’) were one people and that Osiris (i.e. their first king) came from ‘Aithiopia’ and colonized Egypt after it was created by the out-flowing Nile. This, he states, explains why Nubian and Egyptian customs are similar and why the kings of both countries wear ‘tall pointed felt hats ending in a knob’ (Eide et al. 1996, 645). This story can be traced back to the early 18th Dynasty, when the Thutmosid pharaohs established their southern cultic frontier at Jebel Barkal, near the Fourth Cataract. This mountain is distinguished by a 75 m high pinnacle, in whose natural shape the Egyptians saw the vague features of a gigantic figure (i.e.Osiris) as well as a rearing uraeus (Nekhbet of el-Kab), both wearing the white crown. Because they also recognized the rock as an erect phallus, they believed they had discovered here the original mound of Creation — a Nubian Heliopolis and Karnak—and the birthplace and residence of the primeval ithyphallic Amun (= Min).Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
what's remarkable about this thread is that Swenet believes some Nubians had straight hair.
I wonder who else would come out an agree with that.
Either it's African diversity at it again
or they straightened their hair in some way.
this thread is like one of those Truthcentric slips that happens occasionally
.
I have come to believe this Lioness character is genuinly crazy.
Even though I've clearly layed out the reports on which I base my conclusions, for everyone to read, the contents of this thread (as well as that of others I've made/contributed to) somehow get morphed in her diminutive brain as reducable to merely ''Swenet believes''. We've went back and forth about Somali's possessing occasional straight hair according observations made by Coon, and now the b!tch wants to act like Africans possessing occasional straight hair is an entirely new concept. What a crackhead.
posted
^ They posess straight hair because they have Caucasoid admixture. This was observed by Grafton Elliot Smith (1910), Junker (1921), Batrawi (1946) and Coon (1962).
Pure-blooded Negroids don't have straight hair - they have wooly.
The Badarian remains of predynastic egypt (c. 4000 BC) are also Caucasoid - thin nosed, orthognathic etc as observed by A. Wiercinski (1965). Heres the paper -
Wiercinski A.,1965.The analysis of racial structure of early dynastic populations in Egypt. Materialy i Prace AntropoL 71:3-48.
According to Wiercinski the vast majority of the Badarian crania is Caucasoid (76 %) while only 4% show negroid 'traits' such as prognathism.
E. Strouhol (1968, 1971) came to the same conclusion. Of 177 crania only 8 were labelled as having Negroid traits.
Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
- Guy Brunton, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, The Badarian Civilization and Predynastic Remains near Badari, London, 1928.
Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair...
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Evidently ALL the Badarians and earliest Nubians were straight or wavy haired. None were wooly. See the sources above.
Where today do you see a whole country or place of negroes who are all straight-wavy haired and not wooly?
Doesn't exist. Even if i play along with you and say Negroids can have straight hair (even though they don't) the earliest remains from egypt and nubia are entirely straight-wavy haired never wooly. Its simply impossible to get a whole country of only straight haired negroids. Even the afronuts have to spend hours scanning google images for the odd straight haired ethiopian...
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:b!tch wants to act like Africans possessing occasional straight hair is an entirely new concept
Well you are going to have to do better than ''occasional'' LOL.
Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
- Guy Brunton, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, The Badarian Civilization and Predynastic Remains near Badari, London, 1928.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:^ They posess straight hair because they have Caucasoid admixture. This was observed by Grafton Elliot Smith (1910), Junker (1921), Batrawi (1946) and Coon (1962).
Well, Elliot Smith, Junker, Batrawi and Coon didn’t know Somali male lineages overwhelmingly belong to E-M78, did they? With that being said, all their pre-genetic era speculations become obselete.
quote:Pure-blooded Negroids don't have straight hair - they have wooly.
^Strawman. No one mentioned Rainforest adapted Africans.
quote:The Badarian remains of predynastic egypt (c. 4000 BC) are also Caucasoid - thin nosed, orthognathic etc as observed by A. Wiercinski (1965). Heres the paper
The earliest sample, the Badarian, frequently appears to be relatively distinct. This could be due to their very gracile nature (Gaballah et al., 1972), with very little development of the muscular relief; hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character (Strouhal, 1971). In early studies the Badarian sample were usually also described as having rather small absolute dimensions, especially in terms of breadth, horizontal circumference, and cranial capacity (Stoessiger, 1927; Morant, 1935). Stoessinger (1927) described the group as being distinct from Later Predynastic (LPD) populations through being more dolichocephalic and prognathic, somewhat narrower in the parietal region, and having shorter faces (and a lower nasal index). In contrast, Strouhal (1971) considered them to have high nasal indices. He also summarized them as being dolichocranial, orthocranial, mesenic to leptic, and chamaerrhine[], i.e. having narrow, average height skulls with average to narrow upper faces, and [b]a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
-Sonia R. Zakrzewski (2007)
Badarians as described as following, according to Zakrzewski, who has summerized descriptions made by various authors:
-frequently appears to be relatively distinct. -hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character -rather small absolute dimensions, especially in terms of breadth, horizontal circumference, and cranial capacity -distinct from Later Predynastic (LPD) populations through being more dolichocephalic and prognathic, -having shorter faces (and a lower nasal index) than other Predynastic populations. -high nasal indices. -chamaerrhine -a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
So, which one of the above traits cause them to be ’’Caucasoids’’?
quote:Regarding Badarian hair -
wavy in 33 cases curly in 6 cases straight in 10 cases no wooly
- Guy Brunton, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, The Badarian Civilization and Predynastic Remains near Badari, London, 1928.
Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair...
Exactly. Not typical of the variety of hair found in most African populations. It is similar to Somali hair in its proportions of wavy, straight and curly hairs, and Badarians were clearly more divergent from Europeans than Somali’s, as demonstrated by the above descriptions (broad nose, marked prognathism). Very simple math: the closest Euro’s can come to making Somali Caucasians is 40% using controversial markers such as N and M. This means, according to your own typological model, Badarian Eurasian input would be around 20%, as evinced by their ’’Negroid’’ facial traits. This is, mind you, lower than the non-European input of Greeks and Yugoslavians, and comes closer to the German non-European input.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Funny how modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair, according to hair studies (eg, Guilbeau-Frugier C et al, 2006), even though they're 50/50 hybrids genetically.
How do you explain that, crackhead, if not that fully indigenous proto-berbers, and their particularly close relatives in the Nile Valley, already had hair that was more or less wavy and straight. I mean, why is it that coastal North African hair doesn't look like Obama's hair, and that of other African American Mulatto's?
Just give it up already, pesky insect.
The previous time you raised the silly objection of the closeness of Arabia to Somalia, I asked you to explain why Ethiopian groups with known genetic contribution from Arabia (40% haplogroup J) don't approach the wavy/straight hair frequencies detected among Somali's, whose J frequencies are negligible (3%).
I take it you bring the issue up again because you have stumbled on a scientific explanation. I mean, you wouldn't regurgitate arguments, knowing full well they've been refuted in the past, would you? Because we all know how genuine you are when it comes to knowing when to quit.
posted
^ LMAO @ dat b|tch lyinass! She's obviously lost track of all the facts no doubt due to ignoring them while continuing to spout her questions which we've already answered!
Apparently she missed the part in this thread that such straighter hair is largely found in the Sahara far away from any coastal areas-- either near Arabia or Europe-- and that such hair can also be found in the Sahel regions among people like the Kanuri and other Chadians and Fulani, or that the Bilma of Niger have that hair despite looking no different from other Bantu people in the rest of their features.
Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh and speaking of the Sahara region being a large source of people with loose hair...
Sundjata first posted this excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sweetnet: modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair, according to hair studies (eg, Guilbeau-Frugier C et al, 2006), even though they're 50/50 hybrids genetically.
How do you explain that, egghead, if not that fully indigenous proto-berbers, and their particularly close relatives in the Nile Valley, already had hair that was more or less wavy and straight.
Djheuti said hair type correlates to climate. San hair is peppercorn So why is modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair?
Because much of costal North Africa was not populated a few thousand years ago. Various migrants, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans, Arabs settled into these areas. These people became people who historians were to call "indigenous" just as American Indians, technically came from Asia. These costal North African Atlas people mingled with some Africans but were in larger part Eurasian. That's why they have straight hair and desert dwelling Khosians' is not even wavy or curly, not even on the way to straight hair. A strong case of common sense
Posts: 43094 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Oh and speaking of the Sahara region being a large source of people with loose hair...
Sundjata first posted this excerpt from a description by the first westerner (an African-American) to supposedly reach Timbuktu and live to tell about it:
"The place which was called El Gazie, ( 2 ) was a low sandy beach, having no trees in sight, nor any verdure. There was no appear-ance of mountain or hill ; nor (excepting only the rock on which the ship was wrecked) any thing but sand as far as the eve could reach. The Moors [of Mauritania] were straight haired, but quite black; their dress consisted of little more than a rug or a skin round their waist, their upper parts and from their knees downwards, being wholly naked."--Robert Adams (1810)
^Nice, goes together nicely with what I just said about the possibility of proto Berbers taking such characteristics further West.
quote:Djheuti said hair type correlates to climate. San hair is peppercorn So why is modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair?
For this sloppy mumbo jumbo to be entertained (ie, your idea that the Sahara is no different from Khoisan habitat), you'd have to first demonstrate this, and while you're at it, demonstrate that Khoisan people have been living under those Saharan-like cumstances long enough for the hypothesis to be falsifyable.
quote:Because much of costal North Africa was not populated a few thousand years ago. Various migrants, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans, Arabs settled into these areas. These people became people who historians were to call "indigenous" just as American Indians, technically came from Asia. These costal North African Atlas people mingled with some Africans but were in larger part Eurasian. That's why they have straight hair
All you did was citing a fairytale about Eurasian migrants being numerically dominant (which you've just pulled out of your ass), and tying that falsehood to your braid dead logic that ''thats why they have straight hair'', as if that's an explanation.
Crackhead, didn't I just tell you that coastal North Africans have, on average, an Eurasian contribution of around 50%? How can a 50% genetic contribution of Eurasian groups, create a hair form that is nearly the exact same as that of the Eurasian group, if the local hair form was kinky prior to that? Do you imagine it is possible to end up with fresh milk after mixing it with cereal? Crackhead all over again. Maybe you'll get it now that I've dumbed it down for you.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All you did was citing a fairytale about Eurasian migrants being numerically dominant (which you've just pulled out of your ass),
Carthage, a Phoenician colony, at it's height had 500,000 people.
That you have any evidence of large populations of littoral N. Africans BCE who were not Eurasian is a joke.
Posts: 43094 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass dummy: Djheuti said hair type correlates to climate. San hair is peppercorn So why is modern coastal North African hair is more or less the same as European hair?
Hey dummy what does San have to do with anything?! Yes I believe hair form does correlate with climate and I think wavy hair forms in general correlate with dry desert conditions like Australian aborigines. As Swenet says, what evidence do you have that the San adapted to such just because their environment today is arid?!
Also, you speak of coastal North Africa but what about inner North Africa away from the coasts where people have such hair, dummy?!
quote:Because much of coastal North Africa was not populated a few thousand years ago. Various migrants, Phoenicians, Vandals, Romans, Arabs settled into these areas. These people became people who historians were to call "indigenous" just as American Indians, technically came from Asia. These coastal North African Atlas people mingled with some Africans but were in larger part Eurasian. That's why they have straight hair and desert dwelling Khosians' is not even wavy or curly, not even on the way to straight hair. A strong case of common sense
More lyinass assumptions. What makes you think the coastal areas were not populated until a few thousand years ago?!! Also, how the hell can you call recent immigrants in the last thousand years "indigenous" and compare them to Native Americans who were actually the first people to settle the Americas tens of thousands of years ago?! Do you know who incredibly stupid you look?? I guess not!
And again, though the Khoisan today are largely restricted to the Kalahari, such was not always the case as their range was much larger and even the Kalahari is not as dry as the Sahara nor does it remain as dry for as long periods.
More Lyinass productions down the toilet!! Posts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: All you did was citing a fairytale about Eurasian migrants being numerically dominant (which you've just pulled out of your ass),
Carthage, a Phoenician colony, at it's height had 500,000 people.
That you have any evidence of large populations of littoral N. Africans BCE who were not Eurasian is a joke.
^Dumbass, now demonstrate that the predominant nr of those people were Phoenicians, and not locals. It may not have occurred to your grey matter deficit brain, but colonies are generally political constructs that involve the local peoples, not exclude them.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:^ They posess straight hair because they have Caucasoid admixture. This was observed by Grafton Elliot Smith (1910), Junker (1921), Batrawi (1946) and Coon (1962).
Well, Elliot Smith, Junker, Batrawi and Coon didn’t know Somali male lineages overwhelmingly belong to E-M78, did they? With that being said, all their pre-genetic era speculations become obselete.
Can you explain how they become obsolete? And how does the fact Somali male lineages are E-M78 help you?
quote:The earliest sample, the Badarian, frequently appears to be relatively distinct. This could be due to their very gracile nature (Gaballah et al., 1972), with very little development of the muscular relief; hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character (Strouhal, 1971).
No. Stouhal (1971) labels these gracile remains as ''gracile meditterenean''. This was the ancestral Caucasoid phenotype which evolved out of the earliest proto-Caucasoid Upper Paleolithics (Cro-Magnon). Its basically a reduced, smaller-boned derivative :
Earnest Hooton -
''The brunet, long-headed, delicate and gracile type that is ordinarily thought of under the name Mediterranean, I propose to call Classic Mediterranean. There can be little doubt that it is a reduced, refined, smaller-boned derivative of either or both of the massive dolichocephals -Upper Palaeolithic''
Classic Mediterranean
Reduced derivatives of the Upper Palaeolithic
a) Skeleton: gracile, skull smooth with small brow-ridges and mastoids
(b) Beard and body hair: sparse
(c) Face narrow, oval; chin pointed
(d) Nose form: in the Upper Palaeolithic derivative, straight with medium thick tip, elevated or horizontal; in the Iran Plateau derivative, very thin, high-bridged, often aquiline nose, always convex, with thin, depressed tip and recurved alae
(e) Stature: usually under 166 cm.
(f) Body build: usually slender
quote:He also summarized them as being dolichocranial, orthocranial, mesenic to leptic, and chamaerrhine[], i.e. having narrow, average height skulls with average to narrow upper faces, and [b]a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
-Sonia R. Zakrzewski (2007)
No. His 1971 covers 177 Badarian crania. Of those he distinguishes between the ''Gracile Meditterenean'' (Caucasoid) to robust Europid (Caucasoid) crania, and then he puts the majority as 'Negroid-Europid' mixed. He took the position that Negroids entered North Africa before Coon, Junker etc had proposed and that it was already a melting pot by 4000 BC.
He maintains that the original racial substratum was Gracile Med, never Negroid.
quote:-frequently appears to be relatively distinct. -hence they have often been considered to have a generally feminine" character -rather small absolute dimensions, especially in terms of breadth, horizontal circumference, and cranial capacity -distinct from Later Predynastic (LPD) populations through being more dolichocephalic and prognathic, -having shorter faces (and a lower nasal index) than other Predynastic populations. -high nasal indices. -chamaerrhine -a rather broad nose with marked prognathism.
The 177 Badarian crania is put in the following groups -
Gracile Med (Caucasoid) Robust Europid (Caucasoid) Negroid-Caucasoid (Hybrid)
quote:So, which one of the above traits cause them to be ’’Caucasoids’’?
They are different races.
The gracile med skulls have no prognathism, thin nasal holes, are dolichocephalic with small teeth. They are Caucasoid. In contrast the hybrid skulls show negroid prognathism and are far larger with wider nasal holes.
quote:Clearly not Negroid. No nappy hair Exactly. Not typical of the variety of hair found in most African populations. It is similar to Somali hair in its proportions of wavy, straight and curly hairs, and Badarians were clearly more divergent from Europeans than Somali’s, as demonstrated by the above descriptions (broad nose, marked prognathism). Very simple math: the closest Euro’s can come to making Somali Caucasians is 40% using controversial markers such as N and M. This means, according to your own typological model, Badarian Eurasian input would be around 20%, as evinced by their ’’Negroid’’ facial traits. This is, mind you, lower than the non-European input of Greeks and Yugoslavians, and comes closer to the German non-European input.
Again you are distorting the sources.
The badarian crania belong to different races.
You afronuts though are obsessed with this bizarre idea that the variation is ''inbuilt'' diversity among africans - its a way for you to claim racial traits as your own which are never yours - which is what black people do out of self-hate. They don't want afros, wide noses, thick lips or prognathism - they crave Caucasoid features such as straight-wavy hair, thin noses etc - so they then claim those features are apart of their own phenotypic diversity (when in reality everyone knows this is false).
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Sweetnet, if your crap was true people looking like Kabyles would be all over Sudan. It's too late. I heard zarahan is kicking you out out the click due to that straight haired Nubian joint. You think coming at me is going to save you now?
Posts: 43094 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Can you explain how they become obsolete? And how does the fact Somali male lineages are E-M78 help you?
Because after all this talk about the Caucasian family of people ultimately coming from the Caucasus region, this appears to have no foundation. Such authors went by phenotype, and didn’t take into account that a common phenotype doesn’t necessarily correlate with the phylogenetic signature of two populations. And it doesn’t stop there; sound statistical metric/non-metric/dental analysis never place Somali’s among Europeans. The order of population means is always: Broadly featured Africans, Elongated Africans, North Africans and THEN Europeans.
quote:No. Stouhal (1971) labels these gracile remains as ''gracile meditterenean''. This was the ancestral Caucasoid phenotype which evolved out of the earliest proto-Caucasoid Upper Paleolithics (Cro-Magnon). Its basically a reduced, smaller-boned derivative
This is garbage. Gracialisation is not a phenomenon that is exclusive to Europe. This is something that occurred in many places, so it's NOT a marker that can be used to distinguish between populations. If you’re so confident it can function as such a marker, list one modern European population of which it can be said that the remains are difficult to assign to a sex, like it has been frequently said of Badarians. In fact, you yourself have created threads about how Europeans supposedly have the most sexual dimorphism and Africans the least. Where do you think that places ''feminine'', little muscle relief having Badarians. Nearer to Africans or nearer to Europeans?
quote:He maintains that the original racial substratum was Gracile Med, never Negroid.
I take it, that by ''original substratum'' you mean the 9 craniums out of the total 115 that were thought to be gracial meds? How can a substratum consist of 9 out of 115 craniums?
quote:The 177 Badarian crania is put in the following groups -
Gracile Med (Caucasoid) Robust Europid (Caucasoid) Negroid-Caucasoid (Hybrid)
You’re lying, as usual, and you can't even get your facts straight. The amount of crania he analysed was 115, not 177.
And why do lie about the types? There were not three, but four. 15 were ’’Europid’’ according to Strouhal. These were internally composed of remains that he thought of as resembling Robust North African Epipaleolithic material (6), and the others resembled the gracile Mediterranean type (9). Some were thought of as close to Negro types (8), and the rest seemed mixed to him and exhibiting various degrees of traits of both extremes (94).
Aside from the questionable labels that try to force Europe into the equation (contemporary Nubian remains contained gracile and robust configurations that equally fit the bill as explained earlier), Strouhal’s work holds no currency when scrutinized by modern scientific standards. ALL individuals of a given cranial series, whether African or European, can be distributed to various groups according to their individual appearances.
quote:They are different races.
The gracile med skulls have no prognathism, thin nasal holes, are dolichocephalic with small teeth. They are Caucasoid. In contrast the hybrid skulls show negroid prognathism and are far larger with wider nasal holes.
They were found to have rather small absolute dimensions, especially the breadth measurements, the horizontal circumference and the cranial capacity, they were not very robust, their muscular relief was developed only slightly and their general character was described as feminine. According to the indices, they were dolichocranial, orthocranial, mesenic to leptenic and chamaerrhine (i.e. narrow, average height skull, average to narrow upper face, and rather broad nose). A rather high nasal index (men 54.8, women 55.2) together with marked prognathism distinguished them from the following Predynastic series and inclined towards the Negroid direction.
Lying Cash-in-the-minus says:
-no prognathism -thin nasal holes -only the hybrids Badarians show prognathism -only the hybrid Badarians show wider nasal apertures’
Strouhal said:
-Marked prognathism for the entire series as a whole -A relatively broad nose for the entire series as a whole
quote:Again you are distorting the sources. The badarian crania belong to different races.
You’re talking out of your ass. The Badarian arrow is clearly short on the following graph, indicating them to be much more homogenous than known mulatto groups such as the Gizeh E-series depicted above all the other series:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Sweetnet, if your crap was true people looking like Kabyles would be all over Sudan. It's too late. I heard zarahan is kicking you out out the click due to that straight haired Nubian joint. You think coming at me is going to save you now?
You can't even formulate sound arguments, much less a well put together case. Your responses have nothing to do with what was asked of you.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Because after all this talk about the Caucasian family of people ultimately coming from the Caucasus region, this appears to have no foundation.
Caucasoids did not originate in the Caucasus region. The name derived from Blumenbach who used the inhabitants of that region as a representation of Homo Albus (Whites) in Linnaeus' earlier racial classification. The term has since stuck.
quote:Such authors went by phenotype, and didn’t take into account that a common phenotype doesn’t necessarily correlate with the phylogenetic signature of two populations.
quote:And it doesn’t stop there; sound statistical metric/non-metric/dental analysis never place Somali’s among Europeans. The order of population means is always: Broadly featured Africans, Elongated Africans, North Africans and THEN Europeans.
Negroids have macrodont (megadont) meaning large however the teeth of Somalis are mesodont (medium) and microdont (small). I don't know what sources you've been reading.
Lefkowitz covers this in her work 'Black Athena revisited' p. 150 noting how Somaliis have smaller teeth than sub-saharan africans and lists the scientific sources.
However the debate is that larger teeth could change through diet. Others however regard teeth as a strong marker of racial ancestry. Negroids have the largest teeth, Caucasoids have the smallest. This is linked to the prognathic skull in Negroids which prevents dental overcrowding as found in Caucasoids because they have non-protuding jaws.
Gill (1986:149-150) describes the Caucasoid parabolic palate as triangular, and states that the reduced prognathism seen in Caucasoid skulls is due to consistent dental crowding.
Krogman and Iscan (1986:369) describe Caucasoid dental roots as shorter, straighter, and less splayed than Negroid or Mongoloid dental roots.
- Gill, George W. 1986. "Craniofacial Criteria in Forensic Identification." In Forensic Osteology: Advances in the identification of Human Remains. Reichs, KI(ed.). pp. 143- 159. Springfield: Charles C.
- Krogman, Wilton Marion and Mehmet Yascar Iscan 1986. The Human Skeleton in Forensic Medicine. Springfield: Charles C.Thomas.
quote:This is garbage. Gracialisation is not a phenomenon that is exclusive to Europe. This is something that occurred in many places, so it's NOT a marker that can be used to distinguish between populations. If you’re so confident it can function as such a marker, list one modern European population of which it can be said that the remains are difficult to assign to a sex, like it has been frequently said of Badarians. In fact, you yourself have created threads about how Europeans supposedly have the most sexual dimorphism and Africans the least. Where do you think that places ''feminine'', little muscle relief having Badarians. Nearer to Africans or nearer to Europeans?
Gracialisation appears in all races but you overlooked the fact the Gracile Med skulls are orthognathic with thin nasal holes. They are Caucasoid. Negroids in contrast are prognathic with wide nasal holes.
You are delusional though and think blacks can have no prognathism and thin noses, which is why this is pointless to further debate.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: What do you mean ''how do they designate the term ''wavy and curly''? The same way you would when you know what the terms mean according to their definition, and apply them in the real world. I find it interesting that both you and Dana question their ability to designate wavy, but not their ability to designate peppercorn hair. Surely, someone incapable of diagnosing the former, cannot be trusted diagnosing the latter, yet attention is focused on wavy, why?
Peppercorn as a designation is more precise as compared to "wavy and curly."
quote:By definition it is impossible for someone to have kinky, yet wavy long and flowing hair.
Why, and who's definition are you going by; your own or the scientists? As stated by the scientists some samples had hair clearly defined as crispy curled (p118) and even frizzy (p125), all terms used to additionally describe the hair of black peoples yet simply because these samples show hair which gravitate away from samples showing peppercorn hair they are not illustrated as "typically negro."
quote:Don't let that stop you from posting examples though, I'd appreciate pics of African people with kinky hair whose hair form matches your description.
With regard to your request:
quote:
These girls are a good case in point. Their hair is kinky, long, and wavy textured.
quote:Yes, and that isn't the only questionable term they've been sprinkling around. However, how that effects the hair descriptons being made, I have yet to see.
It doesn't, although the usage of the word "typical" together with the racial label "negro" when describing hair is unnecessary if you ask me. I don't see them interjecting non "negro" racial labels and together applying the word "typical" in report of their other samples.
the first girl looks mixed. they are not pure black
Posts: 103 | From: America | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ And exactly how is a pure African suppose to look like to you??
If you haven't noticed, Africans are very diverse in features so skin close to jet black, kinky hair, broad nose, and everted lips aren't exactly the only features found among fully indigenous Africans.
To Swenet. You waste your time and energy arguing with the idiot Castrated. This is the same white loser who works as an orderly in a mental hospital. Not that such a job can hinder someones intellect and further education but I'm pretty sure there are patients in that facility that are way more educated in matters of science and anthropology than the idiot.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Sweetnet, if your crap was true people looking like Kabyles would be all over Sudan. It's too late. I heard zarahan is kicking you out out the click due to that straight haired Nubian joint. You think coming at me is going to save you now?
Are you nuts?? First of all which Kabyle are you referring to? The white types or the ORIGINAL types like the ones below?
And if you were paying attention, straight hair is found in people from Chad to Uganda, so what is so contradictory about it being found in Lower Nubia? I don't know what you "heard" but last time I checked Zarahan agrees with Swenet and neither of them are part of any clique the way you trolls are with you and Simpleton etc.
GTFOHPosts: 26472 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Caucasoids did not originate in the Caucasus region. The name derived from Blumenbach who used the inhabitants of that region as a representation of Homo Albus (Whites) in Linnaeus' earlier racial classification. The term has since stuck.
It doesn’t matter whether that Caucasian source originated in the Caucus region or some other place. If there is no common source from which all those who are termed ’’Caucasoid’’ derive, then the whole premise is undermined. The ancestors of Somali’s, Masai, Nubians, Tutsi et al didn’t lose their paleolithic generalized modern pattern in the vicinity/because of admixture with the ancestors of Swedes for example. Therefore, their elongated physique cannot be considered evidence of them being or allied with Europeans.
quote:Negroids have macrodont (megadont) meaning large however the teeth of Somalis are mesodont (medium) and microdont (small).
Tooth size is not a common ancestry marker, wake up and remove the crust from your eyes.
quote:Negroids have the largest teeth, Caucasoids have the smallest.
You’re lying and talking out of your neck. Australian Aboriginals are among the people with the largest teeth, not the people who originated in West Africa. The tooth size of West African groups such as Nigerians is right on par with Native Americans; would you say that Nigerians and Native Americans belong to the same race? Non-Metric dental traits group Somali’s with Africans such as Kenyans and Khoisan.
quote:You are delusional though and think blacks can have no prognathism and thin noses
Of course this is impossible. It’s because you’ve already made up your mind that ’’blacks’’ means wide nosed and prognathous. In other words, you’ve already correlated ’’blacks’’ with a single exaggerated appearance, which then makes all posting of indigenous elongated featured Africans non-black, because the very glance at anything narrow nosed/orthochnatous, would disqualify them from conforming to your shabby definition of black, which is based on appearance, not phylogenetic positioning. Then you ask the question, why do all blacks have broad noses and prognathism? Well, it’s because your restricted definition of ’’black’’ excludes all groups that are phenotypically strongly deviating from Rainforest adapted Africans, but phylogenetically similar (eg, the Masai) outside of the ’’black’’ bracket. You have to have a brain deficit to be walking around with such logical inconsistencies for years, and not notice it.
quote:Gracialisation appears in all races but you overlooked the fact the Gracile Med skulls are orthognathic with thin nasal holes. They are Caucasoid. Negroids in contrast are prognathic with wide nasal holes.
No, YOU’RE the one who is overlooking facts. Just like gracialisation occurred globally, nasal indices changed according to the climate in which each of the generalised moderns settled, not because Europeans were there to regulate it worldwide with their genes. Hence, remains that look like ’’Gracile Meds’’, whether found among Amerindians, Africans, or Indians, doesn’t require the presence of actual Mediterraneans.
^Dolichocephalic, Gracile, ortochnathous, narrow nosed/faced Masai require no Mediterraneans to occur.
According to Zakrzewski (2002), discriminant function analysis assigns 83.3% of the Badarian material correctly in the ’’Badarian’’ series, and the rest of the remaining Badarian remains classify with the the succeeding Early Predynastic period. None go in the hybrid Late Gizeh series, nor do any of the hybrid Late Gizeh remains fall in the Badarian cluster. Again, wipe the crust from your eyes, and get it out of your head that Badarians were mixed race.
posted
The Maasai are Nilo-Hamites, meaning they are recent hybrids between Nilotes and Hamites (Ethiopians), therefore they have Caucasoid ancestry due to their Ethiopian bloodlines. They are not pure blooded Negroids.
It's funny how Afronuts always use Caucasoid admixed groups like Fulanis, Maasai, Ethiopians, Beja etc to claim Caucasoid traits.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Horner admixture causing Masai to have their elongated features is the equivalent of expecting Greeks to look more like Swedes, after their 25% African contribution; it just won't happen.
The Iraqw are a good example of what Cushites mixed with a tad bit of broad featured Africans would look like. The Iraqw definitely don't approach the Masai in cranial features.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Maasai are genetically 25% Caucasoid (due to Ethiopian admixture). They cluster away from pure Negroids and pull in the direction of their Hamitic ancestors.
True Negroids do not have these traits nor do they have any genetic affinity with Eurasians, unlike the Maasai.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Very outdated study, with only 40 markers tested. He could be 90% Negroid with modern tests.
However, the Maasai have been tested on modern 1 million marker genotyping chips. They still cluster far away from pure Negroids like the Yoruba/Igbo and pull strongly in the direction of Caucasoids.
Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair study applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
[1]"Nordic hair measurements"[/i]
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data) White Germans: 66.33 ______________________________________________________________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics _____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed, "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun." Image gallery | Articles | Google
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Nubian infantrymen shown with distinctive Nubian wig. From Deir el-Bahri, Temple of Hatshepsut New Kingdom, Eighteenth Dynasty, 1480 B.C.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^You've already posted that information here. Please don't make the thread a pain to read by having to scroll past all that information. Thanks.
quote:The Maasai are genetically 25% Caucasoid (due to Ethiopian admixture). They cluster away from pure Negroids and pull in the direction of their Hamitic ancestors.
True Negroids do not have these traits nor do they have any genetic affinity with Eurasians, unlike the Maasai.
^I will ignore reiterated and already addressed arguments
quote: Posted a few minutes ago: The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Horner admixture causing Masai to have their elongated features is the equivalent of expecting Greeks to look more like Swedes, after their 25% African contribution; it just won't happen.
The Iraqw are a good example of what Cushites mixed with a tad bit of broad featured Africans would look like. The Iraqw definitely don't approach the Masai in cranial features.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Nonsense.
Craniometrically the Maasai are in between Horners and Negroids, in agreement with their hybrid origins. They have stronger Negroid (Nilotid) infleunce, but still are partly Caucasoid nonetheless. See this study (p. 184):
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Masai are phenotypically DEFINITELY more divergent from forest adapted Africans, and closer to Europeans than Ethiopians/Somali's are. If anything, Cushitic admixture in Masai would make them more in line with other Africans, both in cranial size, as well as cranio-facial meassurements.
Nonsense.
Craniometrically the Maasai are in between Horners and Negroids, in agreement with their hybrid origins. They have stronger Negroid (Nilotid) infleunce, but still are partly Caucasoid nonetheless. See this study (p. 184):
This had better not be another case of you mistaking the Masai for another ethnic group, like how you took the Hema to be Tutsi's.
Posts: 8807 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
She's obviously lost track of all the facts no doubt due to ignoring them while continuing to spout her questions which we've already answered!![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic