posted
A lot of people complain that West Africans are taking East African history and that they had no role in the creation of kmt. At the same time, I've also heard some West African tribes and communities came from kmt or mixed with them. What does West Africa, specifically many of the ethnic groups that would later become enslaved have anything to do with kmt?
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: A lot of people complain that West Africans are taking East African history and that they had no role in the creation of kmt. At the same time, I've also heard some West African tribes and communities came from kmt or mixed with them. What does West Africa, specifically many of the ethnic groups that would later become enslaved have anything to do with kmt?
^Probably nothing since West Africa was sparsely populated prior to 3000 BCE (when Km't was created), hence no one would have been coming from there and settling in Egypt to found it in the first place. The ethnic groups you mention are not static either and likely did not exist that long ago.
You guys need to stop with these misguided questions and start using the logical side of your brains, seriously. Understand the concepts you are dealing with and the context in which you use terms. What is a "West African" and what is an "ethnic group? What are you basing the premise of your question on (one can also ask what modern ethnic groups from Asia could have founded ancient Egypt, but why are you asking that question and why is it worth spending time to explore if we can just look to who was already in the Nile valley and adjacent Sahara?).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by asante: Stop talking ****, west africans never try and steal east african history away from them
I'm just noting accusations, I'm not saying whether it's factual. Although I will clarify that this is often directed specifically towards African Americans who are often mentioned to be of West African descent.
quote:Probably nothing since West Africa was sparsely populated prior to 3000 BCE (when Km't was created), hence no one would have been coming from there and settling in Egypt to found it in the first place. The ethnic groups you mention are not static either and likely did not exist that long ago.
I heard of this too, but then is there any studies of migration patterns from East to west? Do we have anything that can trace any West African peoples to the East during dynastic/predynastic times (most relevantly to KMT if possible)? I'm not trying to cause a stir, I just wonder what information is out there because I'm very new.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Do we have anything that can trace any West African peoples to the East during dynastic/predynastic times (most relevantly to KMT if possible)?
Nothing definitive, no. There are theories but any direct connection would be distant and tenuous. This doesn't contradict shared backgrounds but why would you be looking for west African ancestors in ancient Egypt and not in west Africa? Why are you trying to go so far back in time when at first you were discussing West African "ethnic groups", nearly all of which emerged in West Africa.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
this thread title question was good. Sundjata shouldn't have tried to high post on the brother. Nevertheless his points were correct Luckily Wally's on vacation.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Why are you trying to go so far back in time when at first you were discussing West African "ethnic groups", nearly all of which emerged in West Africa.
The whole point is, is that I've come across many East Africans who insist that ancient East African civilizations are exclusive to modern East Africans or a specific East African country. While I could simply dismiss this, I feel it is more effective to refute people of this nature by their own train of thought when possible.
These East Africans who are insisting that African Americans especially are thieving East African/Egyptian culture may not be taking into account that the ancestors of many of today's West Africans (and African Americans also from there) may have had ancestors that lived in the East during ancient times too. Should this be true, one would not be able to separate ancient East African history from modern West African history. One would be unable to behave as though the ancestors of today's West Africans shared no connection to the ancient East.
One example I hear is Yoruba, who some have said left around the time of the Hyksos invasions according to their oral traditions. If that's true, then the people of Yoruba have a connection to Egypt and you cannot separate them from Eastern history due to modern placements.
Another example are ancient Nabta Playans who, people are saying went (if I'm correct) west to East and probably contributed to the culture of what would become ancient Egypt.
What I ask is, did any of today's modern West Africans have ancestors in Ancient Egypt/predynastic Egypt? Are there any oral traditions or studies? Is there any studies showing the west was sparsely populated during predynastic/protodynastic periods? Even theories would be interesting to listen to.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ First of all, it's not a matter of West Africans claiming Egypt or other East African cultures for themselves or African Americans claiming it as their ancestral culture so much as claiming them claiming these cultures to be AFRICAN period!! For so long, Egypt has been divorced and segregated from the rest of Africa as some sort of exceptional culture that was non-African or 'Middle Eastern' when such is obviously a LIE pure and simple and one that was widely propagated by Eurocentric Westerners. Ancient Egypt was obviously an African culture created by an African people and studies from all sorts of disciplines have supported this time and time again.
Second of all, as far as a West African connection is concerned, this connection lies solely through common origins in the central Sahara. North Africa goes through periods of climate change with some periods receiving more rain than others. As such there were times when the Sahara did not exist as desert but as fertile savanna with lakes and rivers. That some of the ancient Egyptians' ancestors came from the Sahara is a FACT and so too did some ancestors of West Africans who came from the western side of the Sahara. There is NO evidence whatsoever that Egyptians after the fall of their civilization migrated all the way to West Africa. Such unfortunately seems to be a common assumption peddled by some Afrocentric scholars as a way of explaining striking similarities between West African cultures and those of the Nile Valley. Again it's not a matter of recent immigration but *common origins* in the Sahara.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most African Americans of West African descent probably have litlle or no Egyptian ancestry or cultural diffusion. Some tribes far from Egypt have myths that they were related to Egyptians. Since Egypt is so impressive this is understandable but probably not true.
I think if African Americans get into ancient Egyptian culture it's fine and if some of it can be updated and put into practical or artistic use. But to try to claim ancestral rights and ethnic identity of Egypt will fail.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:^ First of all, it's not a matter of West Africans claiming Egypt or other East African cultures for themselves or African Americans claiming it as their ancestral culture so much as claiming them claiming these cultures to be AFRICAN period!! For so long, Egypt has been divorced and segregated from the rest of Africa as some sort of exceptional culture that was non-African or 'Middle Eastern' when such is obviously a LIE pure and simple and one that was widely propagated by Eurocentric Westerners. Ancient Egypt was obviously an African culture created by an African people and studies from all sorts of disciplines have supported this time and time again.
Second of all, as far as a West African connection is concerned, this connection lies solely through common origins in the central Sahara. North Africa goes through periods of climate change with some periods receiving more rain than others. As such there were times when the Sahara did not exist as desert but as fertile savanna with lakes and rivers. That some of the ancient Egyptians' ancestors came from the Sahara is a FACT and so too did some ancestors of West Africans who came from the western side of the Sahara. There is NO evidence whatsoever that Egyptians after the fall of their civilization migrated all the way to West Africa. Such unfortunately seems to be a common assumption peddled by some Afrocentric scholars as a way of explaining striking similarities between West African cultures and those of the Nile Valley. Again it's not a matter of recent immigration but *common origins* in the Sahara.
Well, what's been happening now is that now the saying is going that "being in Africa doesn't translate to black" and there's the example of Asians and Europeans who've migrated there over the past hundreds of years for example. What I have heard about Yoruba is that some that they left during the time of the Hyksos invasions. The point is, departures from Egypt and the East could've occurred over thousands of years. There didn't have to be a mass migration after Egypt fell. If the West was not greatly populated, how did it's population increase?
It doesn't really matter to me, if there were no ancient ties to Egypt, but if I was wondering if I could refute by their perspectives anyway.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: A lot of people complain that West Africans are taking East African history and that they had no role in the creation of kmt. At the same time, I've also heard some West African tribes and communities came from kmt or mixed with them. What does West Africa, specifically many of the ethnic groups that would later become enslaved have anything to do with kmt?
Well, if these "people" are going to complain about any "West Africans taking East African history", then they should start checking in-house first. Any east African who were not ancient Egyptians themselves, Ta-Seti citizens, or Kushites for examples, are taking history that does not directly involve them. Their claim to history is regional orientation.
Secondly, west Africans ultimately have ancestry in east Africa.
By around 16k years ago or so, there are archaeological indications that ancestors of contemporary west African populations were in west Africa. For instance...
From 30,600 to 10,000 BC:
"A cultural flow, from the southeast of Subsaharan Africa and to the Sahara, could explain the diffusion of the microlithic industries all the way through West Africa. We observe them initially in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30.600-29.000 BC), then at the Ivory Coast in Bingerville (14.100-13.400 BC), in Nigeria in Iwo Eleru (11.460-11.050 BC), and finally in Ounjougou (phase 1, 10th millennium BC)." — Human population and paleoenvironment in West Africa
It's very probable that E3a bearing group(s) came into contact with the then wandering earlier-inhabitants of west Africa, who would have been pressured to move southward beyond the then Saharan desert boundaries, due to progressing aridity of the Ogolian period. These groups could have brought their central-Saharan pottery [e.g. found in Niger] traditions with them [developed perhaps sometime during the transitioning period to the wetter phase of the Sahara], just as the E3a bearing group(s) brought the microlithic traditions that they possibly picked up in the vicinity of the Shum Laka region [see above excerpt carbon dating estimations of finds] …and/or else…the new migrants produced their own versions of pottery in their new found location [as it is not noted whether these pottery had affinities with examples found in the aforementioned central Saharan region], at a time when it was trendy to carry stuff in pottery ware in the Saharan-Sahelian zone, with the filling up river systems due to the Monsoon rains.
By around 6000 years B.P. we start to see complex stone-built settlement trails at Tichitt-Walata and the Tangant plateaus, which would become formation zones of the ancient Ghanaian complex.
There is also evidence of ancient west to east migrations, as indicated by the long presence of HbS in the Nile Valley of Egypt, at least since the late proto-Dynastic period. The only prevalent example therein is the Benin haplotype, which has its origins in western Africa.
There are also Nilo-Saharan elements in western Africa. Obviously these groups inherited this from migrants from eastern Africa.
Some of the proclamations about Dynastic Egypt connections with various west Africans are materially-wanting, usually explained off by tenuous linguistic links and certain cultural reminiscence, but there is no question that some migrations east to west from the Nile Valley had occurred. There are remnants of hg A3b2 in western Africa in modest frequencies, otherwise most widely distributed in eastern Africa, which could signal to such migrations.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Correct. I was just about to say that genetic markers associated with West and Central Africans like E3a and haplotype IV are also found in Egypt as well as Benin HBS.
Benin HBS (sickle cell)
By the way has anyone heard of this?? I think it's the first time I've heard of a North African origin for E3a (E1b1a) instead of an east African origin.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ LMAO @ the dumb prick above me. If only he would prove his claim by showing evidence of a NEOLITHIC slave trade into southern Europe let alone African male lineages prevalent in those areas.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Most African Americans of West African descent probably have litlle or no Egyptian ancestry or cultural diffusion. Some tribes far from Egypt have myths that they were related to Egyptians. Since Egypt is so impressive this is understandable but probably not true.
I think if African Americans get into ancient Egyptian culture it's fine and if some of it can be updated and put into practical or artistic use. But to try to claim ancestral rights and ethnic identity of Egypt will fail.
You are very foolish, you should crack a book open before displaying your ignorance so readily.
I am not going to post the links to well documented and researched articles by academics but there are clear signs that many groups in present day west africa came from Egypt. Hausa and Yoruba come to mind.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I am not going to post the links to well documented and researched articles by academics but there are clear signs that many groups in present day west africa came from Egypt. Hausa and Yoruba come to mind.
Big fat lie.
Have you ever read any genetic studies?
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I am not going to post the links to well documented and researched articles by academics but there are clear signs that many groups in present day west africa came from Egypt. Hausa and Yoruba come to mind.
Big fat lie.
Have you ever read any genetic studies?
*chuckle*
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Do we have anything that can trace any West African peoples to the East during dynastic/predynastic times (most relevantly to KMT if possible)?
Nothing definitive, no. There are theories but any direct connection would be distant and tenuous. This doesn't contradict shared backgrounds but why would you be looking for west African ancestors in ancient Egypt and not in west Africa? Why are you trying to go so far back in time when at first you were discussing West African "ethnic groups", nearly all of which emerged in West Africa.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: You are very foolish, you should crack a book open before displaying your ignorance so readily.
I am not going to post the links to well documented and researched articles by academics but there are clear signs that many groups in present day west africa came from Egypt. Hausa and Yoruba come to mind.
if you're not going to post the links be quiet
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
I am wrong based on what? Have you researched Hausa or Yoruba for example? Do you know anything about what their oral history states? Have you actually researched this particular subject in depth and I don't mean just googling a few days.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
You haven't been paying attention, or maybe I'm reading you wrong, and you have proof that HbS in predynasty and early Dynastic royal remains is evidence of slave blood in ancient Egyptian royalty?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
Based on what I noted earlier, there is some truth to what TypeZeis says, at least given the indicators I pointed out; however, any idea that "many" or a majority of western Africans come from the Nile Valley is dubious and warrants unequivocal tangible evidence.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
I am wrong based on what? Have you researched Hausa or Yoruba for example? Do you know anything about what their oral history states? Have you actually researched this particular subject in depth and I don't mean just googling a few days.
Some Hausa and Yoruba claim Egyptian ancestry but can they prove it?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
Based on what I noted earlier, there is some truth to what TypeZeis says, at least given the indicators I pointed out; however, any idea that "many" or a majority of western Africans come from the Nile Valley is dubious and warrants unequivocal tangible evidence.
I WONT say all! But there are some groups that were in the nile valley, others that were in the Sahara. My father's Family is Mende and it is tradition they came from further north following some Queen supposedly. My great grandmother was Hausa and they said they came from Egypt. They (Hausa) have some traditions too, like a form of martial arts that was found in ancient egypt. I know Mende came into Sierra Leone and Liberia rather later and absorbed some groups already there. There are a few academic studies on this subject. I wouldn't discount the number of groups that were in the nile valley at one point though. Just thinking about Sierra Leone (where my family is from) it was rather sparse in the beginning until larger groups came in, and they came in MUCH later.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
I am wrong based on what? Have you researched Hausa or Yoruba for example? Do you know anything about what their oral history states? Have you actually researched this particular subject in depth and I don't mean just googling a few days.
Some Hausa and Yoruba claim Egyptian ancestry but can they prove it?
Its called research, try it sometimes.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
The first one is a sculpture of a Yoruba figure called a Child of Obatala. Obatala is a Yoruba god. And the second one is the Egyptian god Bes. And they are both wearing a skull necklace. Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=egyto&action=display&thread=27&page=2#ixzz1eXJufwb3[/B] Note I am claiming genetic relationship I'll leave that to Zarahan and others who have more of a genetics handle on things but there do seems to be some cultural transference, whether this all goes back to the end of the wet Saharan phase or more recent arrivals from the Nile or a combination of both is another story.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: A lot of people complain that West Africans are taking East African history
Actually even giving any credence to the notion that this is at all even possible is much less bright than those they say are taking East African history. EA history is EA history.
Furthermore, in Kemetian times there would be no East vs. West African distinction.
quote: and that they had no role in the creation of kmt.
Well, no one can know that for sure, but the question is one of evidence.
There are rumors about the Dogon, Tassili N'Ajer (which has been connected to the Fula), & etc. but primarily they have a mutual connection to the pre-Sahara North African Savannah and to the Sahara desert, with both areas having had states by rivers (Nile, Niger) 6,000 ago with tombs for their buried dead rulers.
quote:"Before 2000 BC, what is today the southern Sahara was inhabited by significant numbers of herders and farmers. On the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Walata (Birou) and Tagant Plateaus in modern day Mauritania, they built what are considered among the earliest known civilizations in western Africa. Composed of more than 400 stone masonry settlements, with clear street layouts, some settlements had massive surrounding walls while others were less fortified. In a deteriorating environment, where arable land and pasturage were at a premium, the population grew and relatively large-scale political organizations emerged - factors which no doubt explain the homogeneity of architecture, settlement patterns, and material culture (e.g., lithic and ceramic traditions). This agro-pastoral society traded in jewelry and semi-precious stones from distant parts of the Sahara and Sahel, while crafts, hunting, and fishing were also important economic pursuits...Their elites built funerary monuments for themselves over a period extending from 4000 to 1000 BC."
- Ray A. Kea, and Mauny, R. (1971), “The Western Sudan” in Shinnie: 66-87.
- Monteil, Charles (1953), “La Légende du Ouagadou et l’Origine des Soninke” in Mélanges Ethnologiques (Dakar: Bulletin del’Institut Francais del’Afrique Noir)
So as you see, the were doing the same West and East in the Sudan. The primary difference being of the Eastern Kingdoms, one donned and introduced the ability to write (the Lower {Northern} Nile Valley Kingdom, Ancient Egypt). That and Mummification.
By the way, one has to remember that by the time of the early Pharaohs the Sahara hadn't even yet fully receded South past what is today's Egypt so even whilst being more Eastern it was inherently part SubSaharan. It infact started in sub-Saharan Africa: Ta Seti was Kemet's first Nome.
Meanwhile infact, the tropics line starts at the South of the modern Arab Republic of Egypt, and in ancient times a Greek historian - I believe it was Herodotus - told of not being able to go past Elephantine because the heat was unbearable / sweltering.
**
Lastly though, back on to all this East & West Africa She-ite, West Africans are of East African origin about 20-30 k years back, infact, 90-100% of the time having a Y-haplogroup (paternal lineage) E-V38 which is ultimately East African in origin, with some exceptions such as Cameroonians who sometimes present percentages as low as 0-40% (those groups being Hg R* at percentages going from 100-60%) or somethin like that.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
This makes a hell of a lot more sense than This,but why don't you address This,being that we have This.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
There's really no connecting west Africans with Egypt, unless there were some west Africans that lifted heavy stones just like alot of east Africans.lol
Posts: 527 | From: usa | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
- This doesn't of course though mean the ancient egyptians were pygmies themselves, all they did was invent gods based on the Pygmies they encountered through trade roots.
Posts: 2408 | From: My mother's basement | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Simple and Cassis Bes was originally a god from the area of the Great Lakes which is central Africa Not Nigeria. see the blue spot bordering Uganda,Sudan,Kenya, Tanzania and the dreaded Congo? This was not found in that region but in the land of the Yoruba far to the north and west in Nigeria. This was called the forty days trade rout one of the terminal point is Kano northern Nigeria hence the connections with western Africa proper,and this connection goes back even before Kemet or Kush were states at the end of the wet Saharan phase, again the greatlakes region is one of the cultural incubators of the Nile valley civilizations. Archeology Findings
The oldest known fossil remains, according to Dr. Louis Leakey, were found in the Olduvai Gorge region in Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. These first "small stature" people were known as the "Twa", who worshipped the God Bes, a primitive human form of Horus I, being the earliest form of Ptah the God of Gods. The Twa, are modern humans or Homo sapiens sapiens. They are a diminutive Africoid people residing in the rain forests of Central Africa. http://wysinger.homestead.com/bes.html click here for more.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
@ Brada, yeh, I failed to mention the ancient (trade/?) routes found going from the Nile to West Africa (I've heard of just two, one going past where yours according to the map went), but then again I wasn't on an all-out mission to joint Kemet with West Africa, I think trying to join or seperate the two is a rather lame-brained ploy, it is what it is, and they are how they are.
It was more a mere ploy to add some (perhaps\apparently different) perspective.
@ zarahan, I feel you, but she posted something that stupid? At some times you have to let the other person be the stupid one and if anything just do your stuff in order to make the person look more stupid -- in my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Based on what I noted earlier, there is some truth to what TypeZeis says, at least given the indicators I pointed out; however, any idea that "many" or a majority of western Africans come from the Nile Valley is dubious and warrants unequivocal tangible evidence.
That's my point exactly!
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I am wrong based on what? Have you researched Hausa or Yoruba for example? Do you know anything about what their oral history states? Have you actually researched this particular subject in depth and I don't mean just googling a few days.
Yes. I've spent some years researching the subject and I'm well aware of Yoruba and Hausa oral traditions of ancestry from the east, particularly the Hausa who like many Chadic speaking folk in the Guinea region claim origins in the Lake Chad area. Such is a far stretch from claiming origins in the Nile Valley though!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Simpleton Girl: There's really no connecting west Africans with Egypt, unless there were some west Africans that lifted heavy stones just like a lot of east Africans. lol
Well there were!
[i]"Before 2000 BC, what is today the southern Sahara was inhabited by significant numbers of herders and farmers. On the rocky promontories of the Tichitt-Walata (Birou) and Tagant Plateaus in modern day Mauritania, they built what are considered among the earliest known civilizations in western Africa. Composed of more than 400 stone masonry settlements, with clear street layouts, some settlements had massive surrounding walls while others were less fortified. In a deteriorating environment, where arable land and pasturage were at a premium, the population grew and relatively large-scale political organizations emerged - factors which no doubt explain the homogeneity of architecture, settlement patterns, and material culture (e.g., lithic and ceramic traditions). This agro-pastoral society traded in jewelry and semi-precious stones from distant parts of the Sahara and Sahel, while crafts, hunting, and fishing were also important economic pursuits...Their elites built funerary monuments for themselves over a period extending from 4000 to 1000 BC."
- Ray A. Kea, and Mauny, R. (1971), “The Western Sudan” in Shinnie: 66-87.
Add to all of this the traditions of wig wearing among West Africans including wigs made of plant fibers giving a 'straight haired' appearance, as well as totemic animal masks used by West African shamans just like Egyptian priests with grass aprons, the ritual sacrifice of enemies of the divine king as depicted on the Narmer Palette is also practiced by West African kings, etc.
And well even YOUR thimble brain should get the idea, or maybe not? Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Based on what I noted earlier, there is some truth to what TypeZeis says, at least given the indicators I pointed out; however, any idea that "many" or a majority of western Africans come from the Nile Valley is dubious and warrants unequivocal tangible evidence.
That's my point exactly!
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: I am wrong based on what? Have you researched Hausa or Yoruba for example? Do you know anything about what their oral history states? Have you actually researched this particular subject in depth and I don't mean just googling a few days.
Yes. I've spent some years researching the subject and I'm well aware of Yoruba and Hausa oral traditions of ancestry from the east, particularly the Hausa who like many Chadic speaking folk in the Guinea region claim origins in the Lake Chad area. Such is a far stretch from claiming origins in the Nile Valley though!
Hausa do not claim they are from the lake chad region. While you google, my grand mother was from Northern Nigeria in Hausa Land. You're mistaken
P.S.
your "point" was Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
that is a direct quote and you don't know what your talking about on this subject.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
The whole point is Guyz N Galz some try to make East and West Africa so far apart as if the distance was equal from the Milky Way to the Andromeda Galaxy. Fact there were contact with material goods,people and ideas travelling back and forth between the regions for thousands of yrs,West Africa was no isolate,it only took a lil over a month walking or hitching a ride on a donkey as the map above indicate.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: Hausa do not claim they are from the lake chad region. While you google, my grand mother was from Northern Nigeria in Hausa Land. You're mistaken
Again, my knowledge on the subject was not recently "googled" but researched some years back through reading books and written records from actual Hausa people. If your grandmother is Hausa, that's great. Do you mind telling us what she knows of her people's history?
From what I've learned, the seven Hausa kingdoms were according to native legend founded by the seven sons of a Muslim hero from the north named Bayajida and a non-Mulsim native queen named Magajiya Daurama whose ancestral land was to the east centered around a large lake, which many presume to be Lake Chad. That it was Lake Chad is guessed at from similar oral tales of Chadic speaking peoples pointing to that area.
Now I never claimed to be an expert on this topic and am open to any info that disputes this. So if you can offer some from your Hausa grandmother, or what have you then be my guest.
quote:P.S.
your "point" was Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:^ TypeZeis is wrong about West African groups coming from Egypt, but as was explained some of these groups share common ancestry in the Sahara with Egyptians, and there is evidence of West African ancestry among Egyptians. So unless anyone can present evidence to the contrary please do so.
that is a direct quote and you don't know what your talking about on this subject.
Really, then why is there no archaeological, linguistic, or even folk traditions among these peoples saying their ancestry is specifically Egyptian?? Again a people claiming ancestry from the north or east is one thing, but it is another to say it is from Egypt.
We already have evidence from archaeology that the ancestors of many West Africans is the Sahara, what more do you want?
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: A lot of people complain that West Africans are taking East African history and that they had no role in the creation of kmt. At the same time, I've also heard some West African tribes and communities came from kmt or mixed with them. What does West Africa, specifically many of the ethnic groups that would later become enslaved have anything to do with kmt?
^Probably nothing since West Africa was sparsely populated prior to 3000 BCE (when Km't was created), hence no one would have been coming from there and settling in Egypt to found it in the first place. The ethnic groups you mention are not static either and likely did not exist that long ago.
You guys need to stop with these misguided questions and start using the logical side of your brains, seriously. Understand the concepts you are dealing with and the context in which you use terms. What is a "West African" and what is an "ethnic group? What are you basing the premise of your question on (one can also ask what modern ethnic groups from Asia could have founded ancient Egypt, but why are you asking that question and why is it worth spending time to explore if we can just look to who was already in the Nile valley and adjacent Sahara?).
True what West African group are they speaking of? Hausa (from the word Habesha)from the region of Chad and Nubia and further east. Fulani who still stretch to Sudan originally from Saharan oases including Fayum, Tuareg from north east Africa, Songhai - Nilo-Saharans; Soninke (Aswanek) or Wangara/Gora'an whose name comes from Aswan, Zaghawa known in Arab texts as the Upper Habesha; Mandinke from the Aquatic tropical civilization of the Saharan region before it became desert; Haratin or Ikaradan/Karduwan related to the Teda-Krit or Tibbu with blood groups closest of all known peoples to ancient Egyptians ... Peoples of Yoruba, Efek, Ibo, Benin stock and the like have the same roots as some of these people including Hausa and Zaghawa (Jukon, Kwararafara, etc)but with a strong mix of Congo related groups.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic