There are truly intelligent people on this forum. Can you be so gracious and give us some information about who the Hadanduwah are? What is their history?
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I don't know, but in the meantime do your own personal research, if you really care to find out.
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Hadandawa live in east Sudan. They consider themselves an Arabic tribe who came from Saudi Arabia. Hadoandowa. sometimes called "fuzzy wuzzies" due to their full heads of hair are famous in fighting and they have greatest warriors especially using the sword.
The migration of the Hadandawa to Port Sudan with special reference to its impacts on their identification El-Amin E. Hag Ahmed
Beiträge zur 1. Kölner Afrikawissenschaftlichen Nachwuchstagung (KANT I) Herausgegeben von Marc Seifert, Markus Egert, Fabian Heerbaart, Kathrin Kolossa, Mareike Limanski, Meikal Mumin, Peter André Rodekuhr, Susanne Rous, Sylvia Stankowski und Marilena Thanassoula
The Islamization of the Beja until the 19th century
Jan Záhorík, Department of Anthropology, University of West Bohemia, Pilsen Abstract The Beja tribes belong to the oldest known nations not only in the Sudan but also in the whole Africa. Their history goes back to the antiquity and nowadays they inhabit the eastern parts of the Islamic Republic of Sudan, the northern triangle of Eritrea, the Ababda tribe lives in the southern parts of Egypt around Assuan, and small enclaves of the Beja can be found in the northern tip of Ethiopia. In this paper I will try to show the process of Islamization of these Cushitic people and to reinterpret as well as to present less known or insufficiently accented facts. There are several uncertainties that require attention. First of all, the date of the beginning of Islamization differs according to several scholars and authors. Second, it is difficult to find some adequate conclusions of the early Islamization of the Beja while we know almost nothing about the extent of this process in the 9th and 10th centuries. Even though we have some direct sources from Arab scholars such as Ibn Battuta, al-Mas’udi, Ibn Jubair and some others, the information about Islam among the Beja differ, so we have no clear idea of the early Islamization of the Beja tribes. In my opinion, we cannot consider the conversion to Islam a quick, but rather a gradual process caused by the intrusion of the Arab tribes since the 9th century and by the increasing importance of the Beja camel guiders and caravan route leaders. Moreover, as examples of some other peoples show, the conversion to Islam or Christianity is always slower in the case of nomadic people than in the case of sedentary population. To sum up, we can talk about beginnings of Islamization of the Beja as early as in the 10th century but we should think of the 18th and the 19th centuries as the final phase of Islamization of the Beja, according to some scholars researching Islam. The differences in practicing Islam between some of the Beja tribes indicate that Islamization of these nomadic people was not a unified and sudden process. KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja 1. Introduction The Beja belong to the longest known people in Africa. Their history goes back to ancient times and we know them from many stone inscriptions as well as from the works of ancient and Medieval Greek, Roman and Arab authors. In the framework of the scientific field, there has been a long-lasting discussion, whether the Beja can be identified with the ancient Blemmyes. In this sense, mainly linguists like Andrzej Zaborski and Werner Vycichl have discussed this topic (Zaborski 1966, 1967, 1989, 1999; Vycichl 1958a, 1958b). Be it as it may, the connection between the Blemmyes and the Beja seems more probable than the connection between the Beja and some other ancient populations as Ichtyofags, Troglodytes, Medju, Taggaites, and others (Kirwan 1979). Nowadays, the majority of the Beja live in the North-East of Sudan, but we may also find smaller numbers of the Beja living in southern Egypt and northern Eritrea. The Beja confess to Islam, but we cannot think of it as a cohesive and motionless fact. There are groups confessing to the traditions of Abul Hassan ash-Shadhili, and others that do not. In the following paper I will focus on the process of the coming of Islam among the Beja. The Arabs from the Arabian peninsula acted as bearers of ideas and goods, as well as Islam, they penetrated to the North-East of Africa since the 7th century and helped to islamize the indigenous population on the other side of the Red Sea. On the other hand, as we will see, acceptance of Islam among the Beja was not a simple and easy process that occurred within years, but a long and slow development lasting for centuries. At the beginning of the 21st century, though being Muslims, the Beja were in opposition to the arabic Muslim government, and this fact also helps us not to perceive Islam as a monolith, as it is sometimes expressed in the media. In general, this article can be viewed as a contribution to the history of the Beja people. 2. First steps The words balwiet and balwia are terms for Arabic or Arabs in the language of the northern Beja. It is possible that these words had their origin in the era of the first contacts with the 2 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja Arab population, or the Balliyy respectively. The Balliyy tribe came from Sinai, and during the reign of khalifa Umar (634 – 644) they advanced as far as the South of Egypt. The first Arabs had migrated to northern Africa since 641 to spread Islam and the new order. The leader of these groups was Amr ibn al-As. His task was to finish the Nubian threat on the southern parts of Egypt. In the 7th century, when the Arabs began to migrate to the North-East of Africa, the inhabitants of Nubia and Alwa were confessing to Christianity, and among them probably some of the Beja. The relationship between the Beja people and Christianity has not been sufficiently explained so far, but we may say, that the Christianization of the Beja was more superficial, than anything else. The first crucial moment in the history of Arab infiltration and the potential clash between Islam and Christianity were the years 651-652 and the occupation of Dongala lead by Abdallah ibn Sa’ad. The Arabs plundered the church and reached an agreement of trade and alliance. Since these years, there was nothing that kept the Arab migrants from settling in conquered areas, in the vicinity of the Beja and Nubian population. The Arabs did not want them to be subordinated to them, but to take their raids under control. The agreement that was signed between the two sides was called baqt, and according to Yusuf Fadl Hassan: Baqt remained the major factor in the Muslim-Nubian relations for six centuries (Hasan 1967:14). The Arab migration in Sudan was held in two ways. The first one has already been mentioned, the way from Egypt into the South. The second migration wave was taken across the Red Sea, the causes of this migration can also be found in preventing of pirates raiding from Africa to the Arab peninsula. Within these periods of Arab infiltration the Beja were confronted with the Semitic and Muslim elements from two sides. During the reign of Abdalmalik (715 – 717), the Dahlak archipelago was captured to prevent it against the pirate raids from Africa. It was the first occupation of the African coastal area in the Red Sea. This act brought many activities of Arabian merchants who helped to spread Islam. Nevertheless, 3 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja the Beja, alarmed by the Arab intrusions, intensified their raids on the Egyptian-Sudanese border, where they were defeated by an army lead by Ubaidullah ibn al-Habhab. In 831 the Beja raided the Upper Egypt, concretely the region of Qift, where chaos and violence prevailed until Abdallah ibn Jahan forced King Kanun to sign a treaty, which guaranteed either one hundred camels or three hundred dinars. Kanun also had to promise that he would respect the Muslim faith as well as protect their property and lives. The move of Arabs towards the South caused the move of other tribes penetrating Ethiopia since the 7th century. For Ethiopia, the consequences of these migrations were disastrous and Carlo Conti Rossini talks about the "century of absolute darkness" in this sense (Conti Rossini 1928:266). Christian states found themselves endangered by the raids of the Beja, to whom Conti Rossini ascribes the major part in final destruction of the Axum Empire. According to al-Jaqubi, the Beja founded several “kingdoms” between the Red Sea and the Nile, each having its own sovereignty (Budge 1970; Zaborski 1966). Since 831 the Beja were subjects of khalifa and the Beja country, extending from Assuan in Egypt to Badi in the Sudan, which was entirely khalifa’s personal property. In 854 the Beja refused to pay taxes and they plundered several villages in the Upper Egypt. On the personal command of khalifa al-Mutawakkil the revolt was suppressed. Andrzej Zaborski contributes that the Arabian punishment expedition had no other character, because the gold mines were not in use yet and the only wealth of the Beja were their camels. Now, it is time for us to stress one major aspect that helped to Islamize and Arabize the native population not only in the Sudan, but also in other parts of Africa. The major influence of the diffusion of Islamic ideas was the development of trade across Africa. First, in the case of Sudan it was caused mainly due to the discovery of the diamond and gold mines; second, along with the previous fact since the 10th century several important ports on the Red Sea coasts were created. The nomadic people played a major role in caravan routes, thus, they were often in contact with the Arab population. Besides the transport of goods, there was also a significant exchange of ideas. John Spencer Trimingham asserts that Islam in Africa was spread particularly by merchants and pilgrims rather than by religious zealots (Trimingham 1968:38). Coinciding with the Islamization the Beja were also influenced by Arabization, which is most evident in their genealogy. Their lineage distinctly bears an Arabic appearance. 4 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja The Arabs began to settle among the Beja since the turn of the 9th century, but in spite of this, they never had prevalence over the Beja. We can search for an explanation in the climatic conditions, because most of the Beja areas are not hospitable and the Arab settlers were looking for a better climate along the river Nile. Consanguineous affiliation of the Arabs and the Beja meant that a part of the Beja considered certain Kahil – the offspring of the Prophet’s cousin Zubair ibn al-Awwan – their predecessor. 3. The Beja in the writings of Arab scholars When talking about the Arab infiltration in the Sudan it is useful to read the work of the famous Arab medieval scholar Ibn Chaldun and his Muqqadimma, where he says: Tribes, that are protected by the inaccessible mountain range against the nomadic Arabs, are in safety from their raids and invasions. The Arabs neither get across the mountains nor undergo an endeavor or danger to get to them (Ibn Khaldun 1972:148). In the 9th century, the Arab tribes of Guhayna and Rabi’a began to settle in areas inhabitd by the Beja and intermingled with the local population. After the discovery of the gold mines in Wadi al-Allaqi, the interest of the migrants intensified. Abul Hassan Ali al-Mas’udi brings us some interesting and useful information in his famous work Gold-bearing deposit and gem mines: In their [Beja] country there are rich smaragd and gold-bearing deposits – it is a gnarled gold, called tibr. Lesser groups of the Beja raid the Nubian country on their pedigree- camels, plunder and capture the prisoners. In early times the Nubians were stronger than the Beja, but only until the coming and rise of Islam among them (Al-Mas’udi 1983:264). 5 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja Unfortunately, he does not give us any information about the direct impact on the lives of the Beja people and the intensity of their religious life. He only gives us examples of Arab infiltration: The people of the Rabi’a tribe married the Beja daughters and gave their own daughters to them; this double conjunction strengthened the power of the Beja as well as of the Rabi’a, so that they could with the help of their new allies defeat the closest enemies, like the Kahtan tribe and some other Arab tribes originating from Mudar (Al-Mas’udi 1983:264-265). The gold mines were in the hands of Abu Mansur Bishr from the Rabi’a tribe, whose allies formed thirty thousand Beja men, who, according to al-Mas’udi, "are called Hadariba and there are among all the Beja the only ones confessing Islam" (Al-Mas’udi 1983:264 – 265). If we can take these assertions of al-Mas’udi as absolutely relevant, then we may consider the 10th century as the beginning of Islamization of the Beja people. Nevertheless, we have to use this term carefully as long as we know nothing about the intensity and extension of the Islamization in these areas. The Hadariba tribe, mentioned by al-Mas’udi, is, according to some scholars, the Beja term for the so-called Hadarima or the inhabitants of Hadramaut. In the pre-Islamic period these inhabitants migrated to the North-East of Africa and settled in the vicinity of the Beja, north of Suakin. According to Ibn Hawqal, the Beja were Muslims only by name, though they adopted some aspects of Islamic belief. Andrzej Zaborski also agrees with this statement. Moreover, John Spencer Trimingham asserts that the Rabi’a tribe, rather than Arabize the Beja, itself absorbed the Beja customs, beliefs and language of the Beja. In the second half of the 10th century, the Arab historian al-Yaqubi mentioned the existence of some Beja "kingdom", named N.qís or Nagís with the capital H.g.r. Andrzej Zaborski points out the Semitic character of the word Nagís, thus, it is possible that it was borrowed from Arabic and transformed. Al-Yaqubi mentions three Beja kingdoms, which Zaborski opposes that we can talk about only one Beja "kingdom", the others were the kingdoms of Baria and Tigré. (Zaborski 1966, 1999) 6 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja In the 70’s of the 10th century, Ibn Selim al-Aswani (ca 971) traveled to the Beja country, his book "Nubia, Makuria, Alwa, Beja and the Nile" disappeared some centuries after, but another Arab scholar, al-Maqrizi used it as a relevant source and he revealed matrilineality among the Beja. Since the 10th century, it is more than probable, that these customs vanished and were replaced by patrilineality. This patrilineality was rather caused by Arabization than intensive Islamization. On the other hand, if Beja absorbed some of the Arab social customs, the same process could have been in the case of culture and religion. In the second half of the 12th century (ca 1180), an Arab scholar and traveler Ibn Jubayr reached Aidhab, the city that was increasing in its prosperity, thanks to gold mines, until the decline in the 14th century. Towards the city he met "the race of black people inhabiting the mountains", how he described the Beja. He characterized them as camel owners who spent much time on routes without water, thus, he confirms a general perception of the Beja as "unrestrained", as we know for example from Ibn Battuta. Ibn Jubayr states that the Beja "loot valuable objects, especially those of old age" (Ibn Jobair 1949:80). Unfortunately he does not give any concrete example of what he means. He describes the Beja country as inaccessible, where people risk their lives because of insufficient supplies of water. But the Beja had to be subordinate to some provincial leader, as Ibn Jubair states that they "sometimes go to the city to visit local governor" (Ibn Jobair 1949:82). In the case of faith Ibn Jubayr is very skeptical when he accuses them of faithlessness, "except the formula of God’s unity they say to express confession of Islam" (Ibn Jobair 1949:82). The city of Aidhab prospered of trade, but when Ibn Battuta visited it on his journey through Asia and Africa (1325 – 1354) we cannot consider the city very prosperous. Ibn Battuta finds Aidhab quite sufficiently supplied with fish, milk, dates and cereals, imported from the Upper Egypt. While Ibn Jobayr wrote that the Beja lived around the city in the 12th century, in the 14th century Ibn Battuta stated that the inhabitants of the city were the Bujah, black-skinned people, who wrap themselves in yellow blankets and tie headbands, each about a fingerbreadth wide, round their heads. They give daughters no share in their inheritance (Ibn Battuta 1929:69). 7 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja We know about the Beja economy in the 14th century and that their food consisted of camel meat etc. Unfortunately, he does not mention their attitude towards Islam. Let us return to the end of the 13th century, when Aidhab began to feel the decline of gold mines, having been almost exploited at that time. At the same time a new danger had arisen in shape of the Egyptian mamluks. Moreover, in 1272, the Nubian king David’s city had been plundered, and after this disaster there followed a period of fights and quarrels between the Arab tribes, until the Egyptian sultan had to pacify the Guhayna and Rifa’a tribes. In 1426, Aidhab was completely looted by the sultan Bars Bey. It was a revenge for attacking the caravan route by the inhabitants of Aidhab. Penetration of mamluks caused migration of various tribes, decline of Nubia, and confirmation of Islamic expansion far to the African interior. The Turkish impact began to be more evident not only in Egypt, but also in the Sudan, which Ibn Battuta comments as follows: On reaching Aidhab we found that al-Hadrabi, the sultan of the Bujah, was engaged in hostilities with the Turks, that he had sunk the ships, and the Turks had fled before him (Ibn Battuta 1929:69) The history of cultural communication between the Beja and Arab settlers was at least in the first three centuries the history of mutual quarrels, fights and wars. If we may advert to the words of John Spencer Trimingham, it seems probable that the Islamization of the Beja as well as other nomads in the area, run slowly and superficially, and we cannot say that Islam settled among the Beja easily. According to the sources we have at disposal we may see opinions of the Arab authors on the Beja true faith, which are usually a bit sceptical. Islam finally settled in the Beja country during the New Ages, which we may prove on the basis of the 19th century sources, for example the German traveller Alfred von Kremer characterizes the Ababda and Bisharin tribes (two Beja socio-political units) as fully mixed with Arab blood and there is no doubt about their confession to Islam (von Kremer 1863). 8 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja 4. History versus anthropology? Christianity was adopted rather superficially by the Beja so we cannot talk about their real Christianization. According to the medieval Arab written sources we have at disposal, we may say, that Islamization of the Beja was not a mass and quick process either, at least in the first centuries after the Islam and the Arabs came to settle in the North-East of Africa. Its mode was due to a lot of aspects rather gradual than intensive, while we can place its peak to the first centuries of the New Age. Islam among the Beja can be characterized in two basic ways: First, as a process of bolstering of ethnic and social identity; second, as a space for redefinition and reinterpretation of old customs and rituals and their incorporation into the new religious system. In the Sudan, as well as anywhere else in Africa and Asia, Islam has specific forms and cannot be perceived as a monolith that is coming through the same processes from Western Sahara to Indonesia.The Beja adopted Islam and a lot of obligations related to it. At the same time, many ancient, pre-Islamic beliefs or customs prevail, or they have been somehow redefined and reinterpreted. Such an example can be shown in a spiritual way, where ghouls (spirits or jinns respectively) still prevail. They live together with people, adopt human shape and moreover, they are even organized in clan structures, similar to those of the Beja. Ghouls can be divided into several subgroups: afarit, šayatín, riyah, zairan etc. (Trimingham 1949:171). They inhabit places such as old houses or cemeteries. The Amar’ar women in Deim Omna allegedly refused to use local latrines, because they believe that they are inhabited by ghouls who would make them infertile. They also believe that the jinns or ghouls still return to the dark and dirty places in the peripheral areas of the villages. Such stories are still present among the Beja (Palmisano 1991:67-68). Since the rise of the Mahdist movement, the Beja in urban areas – especially in Port Sudan – became adherents of Sufism. The Amar’ar were adherents of the Khatmiya order. As Palmisano states, in the overcrowded conditions of the squatter areas, the brotherhoods represent for many persons and more than ever an opportunity for free expression and re-confirmation of an 9 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja heterodox social identity experienced in the margins of Islam and the market economy as well as in the everyday life in a center of islamization, occidentalization and industrialization such as Port Sudan (Palmisano 1991:68). The Beja people were traditionally perceived as “Muslims only by name“ by the medieval Arab authors but this interpretation is wrong when we consider that the Beja incorporated many of their pre-Islamic customs into "their" Islam. John Spencer Trimingham, one of the most important scholars on Islam in Africa, gives the following view on religious life of the Beja: The Islam of the majority of the Beja cannot be regarded as more than skin deep. None are particularly religious, though like most of the Sudanese they are extremely superstitious and show credulity of any fekis who gain amongst them a reputation for possessing baraka (Trimingham 1949:15). The concept of baraka is very crucial for the Beja belief; people, who possess baraka, enjoy remarkable attention. Baraka is not only something that people have, but also that people are. Baraka among the Beja (héequal in to-bedauiye) has a lot in common with Arabic baraka, meaning "giving prosperity, increasing fertility, mediating blessing from God, bringing good luck to people" (Jacobsen 1998:22). The last meaning seems to dominate. Generally, Frode Jacobsen disagrees with Trimingham’s thesis about the Beja’s religious beliefs and life. On the contrary, he considers them a very religiously based people. He adds one story from his own fieldwork: I once witnessed a couple of Muslim teachers of Islam coming from Suakin to a remote rural area in Sinkat to preach the observance of basic duties of Islam to what they recognized as ignorant rural Beja people. Among other things they wanted them to pray at the prescribed times. Learning that they had been following the wrong time schedule for 10 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja their prayers, the rural Beja tried very eagerly to correct their mistakes (Jacobsen 1998:22). The ideas, thoughts, and prescriptions of the Koran are obvious in other aspects of life, too. In the last decades, especially Scandinavian anthropologists have uncovered the veil of secrets covering the Beja spiritual life. The Norwegian anthropologist Frode Jacobsen, mentioned before, has dealt with a research of diseases and how Beja understand them. He concludes that the Beja explain many diseases and illnesses on the basis of their knowledge of the Koran. Jacobsen also notices that they usually put traditional knowledge above knowledge taken from books. A lot of their information and experiences can be compared to that of American or Mexican Indians (Jacobsen 1998). If we accept the thesis of John Spencer Trimingham about the Beja Islam, which corresponds to those of the Arab medieval scholars, then we may admit it only when we take a look at the high illiteracy, which means that not many people really know the Koran and all the duties and prescriptions that the Holy Book includes. On the other hand, we can use our anthropological knowledge to focus on the individual instead on the general situation. The Frode Jacobsen story proofs us that we cannot measure religiosity on the basis of literacy. At the same time, to ask, whether Islam among the Beja is deeply rooted or not does not make any sense, because we do not have any criteria, with which we could consider this fact. There surely exist a large amount of prescriptions of Islam that the Beja do not take seriously, but there are also many that they do. This is undoubtedly an example of many other African Muslim societies, and not only Muslim, and it only forces us to perceive Islam not as a monolith, but as a religion with many colors, tastes and voices. 11 KANT I Záhorík – The Islamization of the Beja
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Hey Myra long time no see..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness: Hadandawa live in east Sudan. They consider themselves an Arabic tribe who came from Saudi Arabia. Hadoandowa. sometimes called "fuzzy wuzzies" due to their full heads of hair are famous in fighting and they have greatest warriors especially using the sword. [QUOTE]
Are you SERIOUS? Hadendoah is a BEJA TRIBE. BEJA PEOPLE ARE NOT ARABS. GTFOH
Many of North Sudan’s people consider themselves as “Arabs” rather than “Africans”. Arabic is the official national language. North Sudanese people often have both African and Arab ancestry.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja do not consider themselves as "Arabs". In fact, because they dont want to be affiliated with them, the Sudanese Governement (omar el bashir) is persecuting them and giving their lands to the Rashaida..
Hadendoah are Beja.
that has to do with the current political situation. Historically a lot of Beja have considered themsleves to be Arab.
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja do not consider themselves as "Arabs". In fact, because they dont want to be affiliated with them, the Sudanese Governement (omar el bashir) is persecuting them and giving their lands to the Rashaida..
Hadendoah are Beja.
that has to do with the current political situation. Historically a lot of Beja have considered themsleves to be Arab.
Kokakola is a Beja herself. Who you think your fooling? lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Myra Wysinger: There are truly intelligent people on this forum. Can you be so gracious and give us some information about who the Hadanduwah are? What is their history?
Lioness has already provided the answer. In short the Hadendowa are basically a clan of Beja people who were obviously Arabized to some degree but not enough to erase their culture and language (To-Bedawi) which remain. Both in physical appearance as well as many customs the Hadendowa are no different from other Beja clans like the Bisharin, Amarar, Hedareb, Beni Amer and several others.
By the way, this the first time I've seen such a large version of the photo you've posted. I first saw that photo in a small form from the nubianet website.
I've only seen some larger versions than this.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja do not consider themselves as "Arabs". In fact, because they dont want to be affiliated with them, the Sudanese Governement (omar el bashir) is persecuting them and giving their lands to the Rashaida..
Hadendoah are Beja.
that has to do with the current political situation. Historically a lot of Beja have considered themselves to be Arab.
Kokakola is a Beja herself. Who you think your fooling? lol
Obviously the Lyinass knows little to nothing about the current political situation let alone historical one. She fails to understand that MANY peoples in Africa claimed to be 'Arab' in name only for prestige purposes in Islamic ruled societies; however speaking Arabic as a lingua-franca and speaking it as one's native language is a big difference. There is also a bit of a problem when the Hadendowa like other Beja clans still preserve customs and traditions that are very much non-Islamic let alone non-Arab. Thus, the Hadendowa are NOT considered ethnically 'Arab' the way dominant north Sudanese are!
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja do not consider themselves as "Arabs". In fact, because they dont want to be affiliated with them, the Sudanese Governement (omar el bashir) is persecuting them and giving their lands to the Rashaida..
Hadendoah are Beja.
that has to do with the current political situation. Historically a lot of Beja have considered themselves to be Arab.
Kokakola is a Beja herself. Who you think you're fooling? lol
Obviously the Lyinass knows little to nothing about the current political situation let alone historical one. She fails to understand that MANY peoples in Africa claimed to be 'Arab' in name only for prestige purposes in Islamic ruled societies; however speaking Arabic as a lingua-franca and speaking it as one's native language is a big difference. There is also a bit of a problem when the Hadendowa like other Beja clans still preserve customs and traditions that are very much non-Islamic let alone non-Arab. Thus, the Hadendowa are NOT considered ethnically 'Arab' the way dominant north Sudanese are!
Yes, the problem here is that many people/ groups in Africa consider themselves Arab, in West Africa, then you have those who are actually Arabized, in North Africa, but don't consider themselves Arab. Like Berbers. But have to play this political game.
Now, what I accutually appose here is the claim that this group does consider themselves Arab, while Kokakola who happens to be a Beja explains the condition of her people and that perticular tribe. The Hadendowa.
I looked up some info:
Abdel Salam Sidahmed - MRG 1995
Most of the Beja are regarded as being of Hamitic origin and are sub-divided into three main groups: the Hadendowa, the Amar'ar, and Bisharyyin.
There are also groups of Arabic/Semitic origin who gradually adopted the Beja language (To-Bedawei) and culture and have been largely subsumed into the Beja.
Another large group, the Beni Amer, who live mostly in Eritrea or around the border town of Kassala, share a common ethnic background with the Beja.
Smaller groups in the area include the Helenga of Kassala (supposedly of medieval Arab origin mixed with Beja), Tigre, and other Sudanese tribes,...
Finally, there are the Rashaidah who migrated in the last century to the Sudan from Arabia and have maintained their distinct identity. Apart from the Rashaidah, all the other tribes and groups may be regarded as part of the `Beja confederation', whilst the Hadendowa, the Bisharyyin and Amar'ar constitute the `Beja proper'. Among the three main groups of the `Beja proper' the Hadendowa are perhaps the most numerous and powerful.
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The Beja converted to Christianity in the 6th century under the influence of the three Nubian Christian Kingdoms that flourished along the Nile for 600 years: Nobatia, Makuria, and Alodia. Beja were continually raiding the Nubian Kingdoms as well as Egypt, reaching as far away as Sinai. With the fall of Egypt to the Muslim Arabs in 638, treaties were signed between the new rulers of Egypt and the Beja in an effort to limit their raids into Egypt. The Beja had to pay tribute in camels, and in return were given trading concessions in Egypt.
Under the Fatimids in the 10th and 11th centuries there was increased trade between Egypt and the prosperous Christian Nubian kingdoms. As a result of the blocking of Sinai during the crusades, all Muslim pilgrims from North Africa had to pass through Beja territory on their way to Mecca. The Beja profited by selling them dairy products, honey and water and collecting tolls on the desert caravans and on the difficult sea crossing to Jeddah.
In the 13th century, under growing pressure from Mameluk Egypt, the Beja became Muslim at the same time adopting genealogies linking them to Arab ancestors.The Beja accepted Islam as the Beduin tribes spread into Sudan and swamped the Nubian kingdoms. At the same time the port of Suakin developed under the Mamelukes, the aggressive new Egyptian rulers. The wars between Ottomans and Safavids blocked the silk route in the 15-16th centuries, further increasing Suakin's importance.
Turko-Egyptian rule brought a brief period of peace and increased trade, and the Beja profited from their tolls on the caravans and ports. With the British penetration into the Sudan came the Mahdist revolt (1881), which after initial success was finally crushed by General Kitchener. The Beja were slow to join the Mahdi forces, but Osman Digna succeeded in finally uniting most of their fragmented Beja tribes, and they became an important part of the Mahdi forces - the "Fuzzy- Wuzzies" of Kipling's poem. The Mahdi wars and the serious droughts of the 1880s and 1890s seriously decimated the Beja population. It is estimated that 420,000 out of some 500,000 Bejas died of war, famine and disease. By the turn of the century only 80,000 had survived. This terrible decline characterised most population groups in the Sudan of that time.
The Anglo-Egyptian rule 1899-1955 gradually improved the situation. Trade over the Beja routes was revived and the Gash and Baraka irrigation schemes were further developed. The British colonial administration appointed local "Nazirs" - high chiefs, "Omdas" - tribal chiefs, and "Sheikhs" - religious leaders, to rule the tribes, gather and deliver tribute and keep the peace on the trade routes. In the 18th and 19th centuries the Beja came under nominal allegiance to the Funj Sultanate with its capital at Sennar, but in practice they were autonomous and undisturbed, expanding gradually westward and southward in search of better pastures.
Mehmet Ali the Pasha of Egypt extended Egyptian rule to the Sudan in 1820 forcing the Beja to submit and pay tribute after defeating them several times. In 1831-2 the Hadendowa wiped out an Egyptian contingent but eventually submitted against overwhelming odds. In 1844 they rose up again but were brutally crushed. The Egyptians built Kassala as a fort to pacify the Beja and it soon developed into a large market town. In the 15th century were absorbed into Islam by marriages and trading contacts with nearby Arab tribes.
In the seventeenth century they expanded farther south seeking better pastures and conquering other peoples along the way. By the 18th century, the Hadendowa Beja were the dominant people of eastern Sudan.The Beja people are an ancient Cushitic people closely kin to the ancient Egyptians, who have lived in the desert between the Nile river and the Red Sea since at least 25000 BC. Various Beja groups have intermarried with Arab or southern (dark) Cushites over the centuries. All the dialects are mutually intelligible. Some speakers are bilingual in Arabic or Tigre (Ethnologue). There are perhaps 100,000 or more who are Beja socially and culturally, but who speak Tigre. The Beja have been independent, with fairly autonomous clan. For instance, the Beni-Amer alone have over 40 sections. They have not always had amicable relations diverse Beja groups.
They resisted military conquest by Egyptian pharaohs. Occasionally certain sections of the Beja have paid tribute to Egyptian rulers. In recent centuries they have been ruled by a series of Islamic governments. In recent years, some of the more educated Beja have become active in the affairs of modern Sudan.
All Beja divisions are Muslims and Sudanese Beja support the government's attempt to impose Islamic law on the Sudan. In 1996, however, they also suffered reprisals from the Khartoum government when they refused to be forced to serve in the Sudan army. Reports are that many have retreated into Eritrea for refuge. The Beja people began to be converted to Islam around 1450 and following, largely because of movement of Arab Muslims into their area. The two major influences were from Yemen and from Egypt and Sudan. The latter, the Jaaliyyin (Gaaliin) Arabs from northern Arabia via Egypt, were the strongest influence.
The Beni-Amer gained their name and their Muslim identity from the Jaaliyyin. The Hadendowa have intermarried even more over a longer period with Jaaliyyin and southern Arabs like the Rebeyah, as have the Bisharin. They were not fully Muslim, however, until the nineteenth century, when they were influenced by the Sufi revival in Arabia and northeastern Africa.
Most Beja are not devout Muslims, but rather possess a "folk Islam," blending Islamic faith with their traditional beliefs. The prayers of most Beja are routine and are, to a great extent, not understood by them. In the fifth century AD the Beja people were involved in the center of Christian development as the gospel was brought to the kingdom of Axum by Syrian missionaries. The Beja were part of the Axumite kingdom led by Semitic Sabeans who had settled among them.
After the incursion of Arab peoples bringing Islam, the Beja gradually abandoned Christianity. In 1991, response to the gospel began anew among the Beja. A baptism in a shallow river yielded the first Beja convert in centuries.
The Beja language has no Bible translation. In recent years, two mission groups working with the Beja were expelled. In the late 1990s Bible translation was planned for both Tigre and Beja, but progress has not been reported. Reports indicate there are 30 or fewer Beja Christians. Agenices do not release details of workers among the Beja. The Beja are classified as one people group in all three countries with Unreached status. Beja are not as fanatically religious as other Sudanese groups and relatively few are involved in the Sufi orders so popular in Sudan. Most settled Beja belong to the Mirghaniya Sufi order, a few belong to the Majdubiya. They keep the Sufi ceremony of Dhikr in scattered Khalwas (or Zawiyas) - small buildings used by the Sufi brotherhoods for their rituals - located mainly in the towns and larger villages. Man's hair is an important symbol of masculinity. The bushier the famous Afro hairstyle is, the more masculine its bearer. Women wear their hair long, daub it with fat, and braid it in a large number of thin braids ending with a knot. They are now in a transition state that creates its own problems and tensions, at the same time facing a refugee influx into their lands, and suffering the effects of the civil war and other catastrophes hitting Suda
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: hadendoah= a Beja tribe
I understand how anoyning you find that individual. Who keeps forcing its oppinion to score.
Well at least we got this out of it. So this part can be closed and shut down.
The Beja people are an ancient Cushitic people closely kin to the ancient Egyptians, who have lived in the desert between the Nile river and the Red Sea since at least 25000 BC.
We both know how that individual has been fighting this for months. Try to show of its east- Indian, Turkish, Mongolian pictures etc...making them pass off as ancient Egyptians? Basically it was everybody non-African or closely linkend. But not those who excually resided in that region for 25000-years.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ What exactly do you mean? What is your parentage?
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: The Beja converted to Christianity in the 6th century under the influence of the three Nubian Christian Kingdoms that flourished along the Nile for 600 years: Nobatia, Makuria, and Alodia. Beja were continually raiding the Nubian Kingdoms as well as Egypt, reaching as far away as Sinai. With the fall of Egypt to the Muslim Arabs in 638, treaties were signed between the new rulers of Egypt and the Beja in an effort to limit their raids into Egypt. The Beja had to pay tribute in camels, and in return were given trading concessions in Egypt.
Under the Fatimids in the 10th and 11th centuries there was increased trade between Egypt and the prosperous Christian Nubian kingdoms. As a result of the blocking of Sinai during the crusades, all Muslim pilgrims from North Africa had to pass through Beja territory on their way to Mecca. The Beja profited by selling them dairy products, honey and water and collecting tolls on the desert caravans and on the difficult sea crossing to Jeddah.
In the 13th century, under growing pressure from Mameluk Egypt, the Beja became Muslim at the same time adopting genealogies linking them to Arab ancestors.The Beja accepted Islam as the Beduin tribes spread into Sudan and swamped the Nubian kingdoms. At the same time the port of Suakin developed under the Mamelukes, the aggressive new Egyptian rulers. The wars between Ottomans and Safavids blocked the silk route in the 15-16th centuries, further increasing Suakin's importance.
Turko-Egyptian rule brought a brief period of peace and increased trade, and the Beja profited from their tolls on the caravans and ports. With the British penetration into the Sudan came the Mahdist revolt (1881), which after initial success was finally crushed by General Kitchener. The Beja were slow to join the Mahdi forces, but Osman Digna succeeded in finally uniting most of their fragmented Beja tribes, and they became an important part of the Mahdi forces - the "Fuzzy- Wuzzies" of Kipling's poem. The Mahdi wars and the serious droughts of the 1880s and 1890s seriously decimated the Beja population. It is estimated that 420,000 out of some 500,000 Bejas died of war, famine and disease. By the turn of the century only 80,000 had survived. This terrible decline characterised most population groups in the Sudan of that time.
The Anglo-Egyptian rule 1899-1955 gradually improved the situation. Trade over the Beja routes was revived and the Gash and Baraka irrigation schemes were further developed. The British colonial administration appointed local "Nazirs" - high chiefs, "Omdas" - tribal chiefs, and "Sheikhs" - religious leaders, to rule the tribes, gather and deliver tribute and keep the peace on the trade routes. In the 18th and 19th centuries the Beja came under nominal allegiance to the Funj Sultanate with its capital at Sennar, but in practice they were autonomous and undisturbed, expanding gradually westward and southward in search of better pastures.
Mehmet Ali the Pasha of Egypt extended Egyptian rule to the Sudan in 1820 forcing the Beja to submit and pay tribute after defeating them several times. In 1831-2 the Hadendowa wiped out an Egyptian contingent but eventually submitted against overwhelming odds. In 1844 they rose up again but were brutally crushed. The Egyptians built Kassala as a fort to pacify the Beja and it soon developed into a large market town. In the 15th century were absorbed into Islam by marriages and trading contacts with nearby Arab tribes.
In the seventeenth century they expanded farther south seeking better pastures and conquering other peoples along the way. By the 18th century, the Hadendowa Beja were the dominant people of eastern Sudan.The Beja people are an ancient Cushitic people closely kin to the ancient Egyptians, who have lived in the desert between the Nile river and the Red Sea since at least 25000 BC. Various Beja groups have intermarried with Arab or southern (dark) Cushites over the centuries. All the dialects are mutually intelligible. Some speakers are bilingual in Arabic or Tigre (Ethnologue). There are perhaps 100,000 or more who are Beja socially and culturally, but who speak Tigre. The Beja have been independent, with fairly autonomous clan. For instance, the Beni-Amer alone have over 40 sections. They have not always had amicable relations diverse Beja groups.
They resisted military conquest by Egyptian pharaohs. Occasionally certain sections of the Beja have paid tribute to Egyptian rulers. In recent centuries they have been ruled by a series of Islamic governments. In recent years, some of the more educated Beja have become active in the affairs of modern Sudan.
All Beja divisions are Muslims and Sudanese Beja support the government's attempt to impose Islamic law on the Sudan. In 1996, however, they also suffered reprisals from the Khartoum government when they refused to be forced to serve in the Sudan army. Reports are that many have retreated into Eritrea for refuge. The Beja people began to be converted to Islam around 1450 and following, largely because of movement of Arab Muslims into their area. The two major influences were from Yemen and from Egypt and Sudan. The latter, the Jaaliyyin (Gaaliin) Arabs from northern Arabia via Egypt, were the strongest influence.
The Beni-Amer gained their name and their Muslim identity from the Jaaliyyin. The Hadendowa have intermarried even more over a longer period with Jaaliyyin and southern Arabs like the Rebeyah, as have the Bisharin. They were not fully Muslim, however, until the nineteenth century, when they were influenced by the Sufi revival in Arabia and northeastern Africa.
Most Beja are not devout Muslims, but rather possess a "folk Islam," blending Islamic faith with their traditional beliefs. The prayers of most Beja are routine and are, to a great extent, not understood by them. In the fifth century AD the Beja people were involved in the center of Christian development as the gospel was brought to the kingdom of Axum by Syrian missionaries. The Beja were part of the Axumite kingdom led by Semitic Sabeans who had settled among them.
After the incursion of Arab peoples bringing Islam, the Beja gradually abandoned Christianity. In 1991, response to the gospel began anew among the Beja. A baptism in a shallow river yielded the first Beja convert in centuries.
The Beja language has no Bible translation. In recent years, two mission groups working with the Beja were expelled. In the late 1990s Bible translation was planned for both Tigre and Beja, but progress has not been reported. Reports indicate there are 30 or fewer Beja Christians. Agenices do not release details of workers among the Beja. The Beja are classified as one people group in all three countries with Unreached status. Beja are not as fanatically religious as other Sudanese groups and relatively few are involved in the Sufi orders so popular in Sudan. Most settled Beja belong to the Mirghaniya Sufi order, a few belong to the Majdubiya. They keep the Sufi ceremony of Dhikr in scattered Khalwas (or Zawiyas) - small buildings used by the Sufi brotherhoods for their rituals - located mainly in the towns and larger villages. Man's hair is an important symbol of masculinity. The bushier the famous Afro hairstyle is, the more masculine its bearer. Women wear their hair long, daub it with fat, and braid it in a large number of thin braids ending with a knot. They are now in a transition state that creates its own problems and tensions, at the same time facing a refugee influx into their lands, and suffering the effects of the civil war and other catastrophes hitting Suda
Hey Lyinass, learn to CITE YOUR SOURCES, since we all know you did not pull such info from your lyinass. You can't even copy and paste all of the info as noticed from the missing letters in the end.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja do not consider themselves as "Arabs". In fact, because they dont want to be affiliated with them, the Sudanese Governement (omar el bashir) is persecuting them and giving their lands to the Rashaida..
Hadendoah are Beja.
that has to do with the current political situation. Historically a lot of Beja have considered themsleves to be Arab.
Kokakola is a Beja herself. Who you think your fooling? lol
No im not Beja, but i do have Beja ancestries
Ok, I was under the assumption that is what you told Dana a few months ago. And on that wack website Topix.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^ There were no Beja during pharaonic times but Medjay. I hope you know the difference.
Plus Medjay resided in the royal palace not only as guards but royal members as well particularly wives of pharaohs going back to the 11th dynasty.
And then we have this:
quote:Frank Joseph Yurco Apr 16 1998, 3:00 am show options Newsgroups: sci.archaeology From: fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco) - Find messages by this author Date: 1998/04/16 Subject: Re: WESTERN(WHITE)CIVILIZATION IS FOUNDED ON A BLACK AFRICAN CIVILIZATION. Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse
Dear Ramira,
The reference to certain pharaohs resembling the Kushite Beja comes from the X-Ray Atlas of the Royal Mummies, by Wente et al (Chicago: University of Chicago, 1980). This observation came from a study of the late Dynasty XVII royal mummies, particularly Seqenenre Ta'aa's mummy. If you look at this mummy, he has tightly curled hair, and along with the other royals of late Dynasty XVIII-Early Dynasty XVIII, they show marked prognatism in the upper jaw, with many exhibiting a bad case of "buck teeth". This, plus the occurence of Beja names in the Dynasty XVII tombs at El-Qab, led the authors to conclude that there may have been links between the Medja mercenaries so common in the armies of this period, and the royals in this family. However, after Amenhotep I, the male line died out, and Thutmose I brought new blood into the old royal line. So, the comment about the resemblance of the royals to the Medja applies only to the late Dynasty XVII and early Dynasty XVIII rulers starting with Tety-sheri and Senakhtenre of Dynasty XVII.
So, this is not a false story, but is based upopn the observation and study of the mummies of this group of royals.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja do not consider themselves as "Arabs". In fact, because they dont want to be affiliated with them, the Sudanese Governement (omar el bashir) is persecuting them and giving their lands to the Rashaida..
Hadendoah are Beja.
that has to do with the current political situation. Historically a lot of Beja have considered themselves to be Arab.
Kokakola is a Beja herself. Who you think your fooling? lol
Obviously the Lyinass knows little to nothing about the current political situation let alone historical one. She fails to understand that MANY peoples in Africa claimed to be 'Arab' in name only for prestige purposes in Islamic ruled societies; however speaking Arabic as a lingua-franca and speaking it as one's native language is a big difference. There is also a bit of a problem when the Hadendowa like other Beja clans still preserve customs and traditions that are very much non-Islamic let alone non-Arab. Thus, the Hadendowa are NOT considered ethnically 'Arab' the way dominant north Sudanese are!
your interpretation of why some Africans call themselves Arabs is a Eurocentric based interpretation. Everything is about context and you must understand Arab culture to understand why this has happened. In Arab culture, regardless of your skin color or where you are born, if your father is a Arab then YOU are a Arab. Has nothing to do with prestige or any other such Eurocentric notion. A lot of people on this board do not know much about Africa, its people or its culture and hence comes in the miseducated speculations.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
This is what I keep trying to tell people like Garrig and others who go one talking about Mehgrebis using the term "Bidan" aka white to mean that everyone North of the Desert were some Blond Kabylies. Ancestry and identity in Arab Culture is best understood as the complete opposite of the Anglo notion of a "One Drop" Rule. Instead one Drop of Arab blood makes one an Arab. The best example of this is Egyptian President Anwar Sedat.
If Anwar had been Born in America, he would be black, in Egypt he was Arab/White/Bidan. People like to say he hated his African ancestry, but in all honesty to him his maternal African side did no matter to him what mattered was his Fathers blood.
People don't understand this which is why you have website like this..
Where Garrig et al Copy-n-Paste arguments made by Eurocentrics with an axe to grind, misquoting Muslim writers like Ibn Bhatuta etc.
The Truth is these Eurocentrics and folks like Garrig in their crusade to "Debunk Afrocentrics" from spreading misinformation end up spreading misinformation themselves by pushing Eurocentric and Western beliefs and outlooks on Mideval Muslim writers and by leaving out 80% of all the right info in order to slant the argument their way.
To get the truth you need to be unbaised and let the chips fall where they lay. One must study the sources from many different points of view.
You can see the beat downs Garrig Suffered after his Angelfire website failed to save him.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: your interpretation of why some Africans call themselves Arabs is a Eurocentric based interpretation. Everything is about context and you must understand Arab culture to understand why this has happened. In Arab culture, regardless of your skin color or where you are born, if your father is a Arab then YOU are a Arab. Has nothing to do with prestige or any other such Eurocentric notion. A lot of people on this board do not know much about Africa, its people or its culture and hence comes in the miseducated speculations.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: This is what I keep trying to tell people like Garrig and others who go one talking about Mehgrebis using the term "Bidan" aka white to mean that everyone North of the Desert were some Blond Kabylies. Ancestry and identity in Arab Culture is best understood as the complete opposite of the Anglo notion of a "One Drop" Rule. Instead one Drop of Arab blood makes one an Arab. The best example of this is Egyptian President Anwar Sedat.
If Anwar had been Born in America, he would be black, in Egypt he was Arab/White/Bidan. People like to say he hated his African ancestry, but in all honesty to him his maternal African side did no matter to him what mattered was his Fathers blood.
People don't understand this which is why you have website like this..
Where Garrig et al Copy-n-Paste arguments made by Eurocentrics with an axe to grind, misquoting Muslim writers like Ibn Bhatuta etc.
The Truth is these Eurocentrics and folks like Garrig in their crusade to "Debunk Afrocentrics" from spreading misinformation end up spreading misinformation themselves by pushing Eurocentric and Western beliefs and outlooks on Mideval Muslim writers and by leaving out 80% of all the right info in order to slant the argument their way.
To get the truth you need to be unbaised and let the chips fall where they lay. One must study the sources from many different points of view.
You can see the beat downs Garrig Suffered after his Angelfire website failed to save him.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: your interpretation of why some Africans call themselves Arabs is a Eurocentric based interpretation. Everything is about context and you must understand Arab culture to understand why this has happened. In Arab culture, regardless of your skin color or where you are born, if your father is a Arab then YOU are a Arab. Has nothing to do with prestige or any other such Eurocentric notion. A lot of people on this board do not know much about Africa, its people or its culture and hence comes in the miseducated speculations.
Brother, who ever said Anwar didn't appreciate or should I say LOVE his African roots should pull their heads out of their arses. It was Anwar who said on national tv "I am the first TRUE Pharaoh in 3,000 years" and he was referring to his African side, not the Arab side. lol.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOLPosts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Yeah, and this would explain why his assassin cried "Death to Pharaoh" when he killed Anwar.. Also alot of folks in Islamic Media call Anwar "The Last Pharaoh"..
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: This is what I keep trying to tell people like Garrig and others who go one talking about Mehgrebis using the term "Bidan" aka white to mean that everyone North of the Desert were some Blond Kabylies. Ancestry and identity in Arab Culture is best understood as the complete opposite of the Anglo notion of a "One Drop" Rule. Instead one Drop of Arab blood makes one an Arab. The best example of this is Egyptian President Anwar Sedat.
If Anwar had been Born in America, he would be black, in Egypt he was Arab/White/Bidan. People like to say he hated his African ancestry, but in all honesty to him his maternal African side did no matter to him what mattered was his Fathers blood.
People don't understand this which is why you have website like this..
Where Garrig et al Copy-n-Paste arguments made by Eurocentrics with an axe to grind, misquoting Muslim writers like Ibn Bhatuta etc.
The Truth is these Eurocentrics and folks like Garrig in their crusade to "Debunk Afrocentrics" from spreading misinformation end up spreading misinformation themselves by pushing Eurocentric and Western beliefs and outlooks on Mideval Muslim writers and by leaving out 80% of all the right info in order to slant the argument their way.
To get the truth you need to be unbaised and let the chips fall where they lay. One must study the sources from many different points of view.
You can see the beat downs Garrig Suffered after his Angelfire website failed to save him.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss: your interpretation of why some Africans call themselves Arabs is a Eurocentric based interpretation. Everything is about context and you must understand Arab culture to understand why this has happened. In Arab culture, regardless of your skin color or where you are born, if your father is a Arab then YOU are a Arab. Has nothing to do with prestige or any other such Eurocentric notion. A lot of people on this board do not know much about Africa, its people or its culture and hence comes in the miseducated speculations.
Brother, who ever said Anwar didn't appreciate or should I say LOVE his African roots should pull their heads out of their arses. It was Anwar who said on national tv "I am the first TRUE Pharaoh in 3,000 years" and he was referring to his African side, not the Arab side. lol.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOL
The reason for this is because in Islamic religion the word of Muhammad is considered the law and those who are the leaders of Islam are also considered the embodiment of "the word" as "the law". In this tradition, Muhammad was illiterate everything that was passed down from him was by word of mouth as the words of the Prophet on how Muslims should live. These words then got passed on to his followers who then passed them on to their followers and so forth. Hence it is by being a descendant of one of these folks that one is passing on "the law" or the words of the Prophet in leading "the faithful" and the followers of Islam. Hence being a descendant of Muhammad becomes a sign of authority and legitimacy.
All of this is based around the framework of Hadith as the basis for Islamic Jurisprudence. By being a descendant of Muhammad, one is able to declare a hadith or law based on the idea that this is the literal word of Muhammad passed down from one of his followers. There is a whole school of Hadith in Islam and many hadith have been found to be bogus, but this is the power and authority many Islamic leaders were looking legitimatize by claiming descent from the Prophet.
It is no different that the divine right of kings as the executors of God's law in the Christian tradition or the Divine word of Ptah as the basis for the authority of the Pharaohs.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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Mohamed Hussein Tantawi Chairman of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, Egypt 2011
________________________________________________________ _____________________________ Muhammad Naguib the first President of Egypt, serving from the declaration of the Republic on June 18, 1953 to November 14, 1954.
Along with Gamal Abdel Nasser, Muhammad Naguib was the primary leader of the Egyptian Revolution of 1952, which ended the rule of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty in Egypt and Sudan. Disagreements with Nasser led to his forced removal from office, and subsequent 18 year house arrest until his release by President Anwar El-Sadat in 1972. Naguib's full name was Mohamed Naguib Yousef Qotp Elkashlan; he was born in Khartoum, Sudan, which was united with Egypt at the time. He was the eldest of nine children of an Egyptian, Youssef Naguib, and a Sudanese woman Zohra Ahmed Othman.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOL
you get no argument from me on this one. The South East Asians, specifically the "desis" are the most notorious for this stuff.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOL
The reason for this is because in Islamic religion the word of Muhammad is considered the law and those who are the leaders of Islam are also considered the embodiment of "the word" as "the law". In this tradition, Muhammad was illiterate everything that was passed down from him was by word of mouth as the words of the Prophet on how Muslims should live. These words then got passed on to his followers who then passed them on to their followers and so forth. Hence it is by being a descendant of one of these folks that one is passing on "the law" or the words of the Prophet in leading "the faithful" and the followers of Islam. Hence being a descendant of Muhammad becomes a sign of authority and legitimacy.
All of this is based around the framework of Hadith as the basis for Islamic Jurisprudence. By being a descendant of Muhammad, one is able to declare a hadith or law based on the idea that this is the literal word of Muhammad passed down from one of his followers. There is a whole school of Hadith in Islam and many hadith have been found to be bogus, but this is the power and authority many Islamic leaders were looking legitimatize by claiming descent from the Prophet.
It is no different that the divine right of kings as the executors of God's law in the Christian tradition or the Divine word of Ptah as the basis for the authority of the Pharaohs.
100% inaccurate. The law is derived from the Quran and from Ahadith. All of which were written down during the life of Prophet Muhammad. However it was organized in its final form during the khalifa of Abu Bakr. The leaders/khalif is not above the two sources i.e. Quran and those laws derived from seerat muhammad or ahadith.
Now as to how hadith are found to be sound or not, one uses the chain of transmission to do this. Has nothing to do with being a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad (s3w) that is 100% inaccurate. You, I think are mixing SOME ideology of the shi'a with some other thing (which I am not sure of what it is) which is not based in reality.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOL
The reason for this is because in Islamic religion the word of Muhammad is considered the law and those who are the leaders of Islam are also considered the embodiment of "the word" as "the law". In this tradition, Muhammad was illiterate everything that was passed down from him was by word of mouth as the words of the Prophet on how Muslims should live. These words then got passed on to his followers who then passed them on to their followers and so forth. Hence it is by being a descendant of one of these folks that one is passing on "the law" or the words of the Prophet in leading "the faithful" and the followers of Islam. Hence being a descendant of Muhammad becomes a sign of authority and legitimacy.
All of this is based around the framework of Hadith as the basis for Islamic Jurisprudence. By being a descendant of Muhammad, one is able to declare a hadith or law based on the idea that this is the literal word of Muhammad passed down from one of his followers. There is a whole school of Hadith in Islam and many hadith have been found to be bogus, but this is the power and authority many Islamic leaders were looking legitimatize by claiming descent from the Prophet.
It is no different that the divine right of kings as the executors of God's law in the Christian tradition or the Divine word of Ptah as the basis for the authority of the Pharaohs.
100% inaccurate. The law is derived from the Quran and from Ahadith. All of which were written down during the life of Prophet Muhammad. However it was organized in its final form during the khalifa of Abu Bakr. The leaders/khalif is not above the two sources i.e. Quran and those laws derived from seerat muhammad or ahadith.
Now as to how hadith are found to be sound or not, one uses the chain of transmission to do this. Has nothing to do with being a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad (s3w) that is 100% inaccurate. You, I think are mixing SOME ideology of the shi'a with some other thing (which I am not sure of what it is) which is not based in reality.
I didn't say that all hadith were sound. You actually are backing up my point and confirming what I said. And the issue is not hadith the issue is why people want to claim descent from Muhammad which absolutely does have something to do with line of transmission of authority over the Ummah. This is especially true regarding the role of Caliph in Islam. In fact, the term Caliph itself means successor. So I think you should understand what I am saying.
The fact is that there are many hadiths that have been claimed as unsound and many traditions that are disputed between the main branches of Islam because of the differences in opinion related to Isnad, Hadith and Sahaba. (Line of transmission, statements or actions of Muhammad and those who were companions of the prophet)
Also, this has to do with the tradition of clans and identification in Arab culture being based on descent from a paternal ancestor. Hence many Arab clans are named after an eponymous male ancestor and all the progeny of the clan are identified with this ancestor led theoretically by someone of direct descent from that ancestor. In reality direct descent is not always the basis of the rulership of these clans and often times many non blood kin are identified as part of the clan even if they have no real ties to the patriarch. That is how Arabs were able to Arabize so many people in many areas into the concept of being Arab even though they are not Arab in the least. Sudan is a good example of this. One Arab male in the line at any point in the past and they are Arab and that ancestor becomes their patriarch.
Posts: 8889 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOL
The reason for this is because in Islamic religion the word of Muhammad is considered the law and those who are the leaders of Islam are also considered the embodiment of "the word" as "the law". In this tradition, Muhammad was illiterate everything that was passed down from him was by word of mouth as the words of the Prophet on how Muslims should live. These words then got passed on to his followers who then passed them on to their followers and so forth. Hence it is by being a descendant of one of these folks that one is passing on "the law" or the words of the Prophet in leading "the faithful" and the followers of Islam. Hence being a descendant of Muhammad becomes a sign of authority and legitimacy.
All of this is based around the framework of Hadith as the basis for Islamic Jurisprudence. By being a descendant of Muhammad, one is able to declare a hadith or law based on the idea that this is the literal word of Muhammad passed down from one of his followers. There is a whole school of Hadith in Islam and many hadith have been found to be bogus, but this is the power and authority many Islamic leaders were looking legitimatize by claiming descent from the Prophet.
It is no different that the divine right of kings as the executors of God's law in the Christian tradition or the Divine word of Ptah as the basis for the authority of the Pharaohs.
100% inaccurate. The law is derived from the Quran and from Ahadith. All of which were written down during the life of Prophet Muhammad. However it was organized in its final form during the khalifa of Abu Bakr. The leaders/khalif is not above the two sources i.e. Quran and those laws derived from seerat muhammad or ahadith.
Now as to how hadith are found to be sound or not, one uses the chain of transmission to do this. Has nothing to do with being a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad (s3w) that is 100% inaccurate. You, I think are mixing SOME ideology of the shi'a with some other thing (which I am not sure of what it is) which is not based in reality.
I didn't say that all hadith were sound. You actually are backing up my point and confirming what I said. And the issue is not hadith the issue is why people want to claim descent from Muhammad which absolutely does have something to do with line of transmission of authority over the Ummah. This is especially true regarding the role of Caliph in Islam. In fact, the term Caliph itself means successor. So I think you should understand what I am saying.
The fact is that there are many hadiths that have been claimed as unsound and many traditions that are disputed between the main branches of Islam because of the differences in opinion related to Isnad, Hadith and Sahaba. (Line of transmission, statements or actions of Muhammad and those who were companions of the prophet)
Also, this has to do with the tradition of clans and identification in Arab culture being based on descent from a paternal ancestor. Hence many Arab clans are named after an eponymous male ancestor and all the progeny of the clan are identified with this ancestor led theoretically by someone of direct descent from that ancestor. In reality direct descent is not always the basis of the rulership of these clans and often times many non blood kin are identified as part of the clan even if they have no real ties to the patriarch. That is how Arabs were able to Arabize so many people in many areas into the concept of being Arab even though they are not Arab in the least. Sudan is a good example of this. One Arab male in the line at any point in the past and they are Arab and that ancestor becomes their patriarch.
Again, your wrong.
I get it, you google and thats fine. I am a Muslim, I know Arabic and I know my religion very well, as I should. I studied under a Mufti for almost a decade.
The last part of your point is irrelevant, because your first part is misguided.
You do not know much about Islam it seems and your probably googling I assume.
1. Shi'i Islam gives credence to someone being from the line of the Prophet Muhammad. Specifically to a specific line of successors. When one is about to die, supposedly he names his successor. These successors are not called khalifat, they are called Imam and the successorship is called al Imamat or Al Wilayat. Imamat comes from the root Alif, meem and meem. This can mean to be in front of, to be before (in proximity) or to lead or be a leader. Example if I say nahnu imam al shobaak (we are in front of the window). Wilayat has the root wa lam and ya. This can mean succession, sequence, series, continuation, or uninterrupted. In the case of these Imams the idea is that they are a uninterrupted line of men who descend from Prophet Muhammad (saw), who are ordained by Allah (swt) to lead the Ummat Muhammad (saw). Again this is something Sunnis do NOT adhere to, this is aqeeda al Shia.
2. Sunni Islam hold no such belief that successorship entitles someone to have any legitimate authority in Islam. I should add the khalif is to administer the affairs of the state and safe guard the sanctity of Islam. However, they generally speaking in the case of the later Khalifat do not give Islamic rulings. They differed to religious scholars. Even in the case of the first 3, they differed to Ali Ibn Abi Talib in many instances. Abu Bakr was NOT a blood relative (which the Imamat dictates you must be). Neither was Omar, Uthman, Mu3wiya etc. etc. I should add though that Abu Bakr did make one decision based on what he claimed was religious grounds which caused Fatima (as) (daughter of Prophet Muhammad) not to speak to him again and she made Ali Ibn Abi Talib swear to not have Abu Bakr at her funeral. But I believe he did that for political reasons.
3. Only A'li (ra) was a blood relative, he is the one the Shi'i believe was the first of their Imams after prophet Muhammad (saw). It is their hadith that you must be able to tie the Isnad back to one of the Imams which then goes back to A'li Ibn Abi Talib (ra) and from him to Prophet Muhammad (saw). Were as with Sunni, it can go through someone who knew one of the companions. By someone, I mean in the plural sense, because that isnad can be a long one. Especially since the hadith were compiled some generations after the fact.
4. So your using the Sudan as a example makes no sense in this situation, because they are Sunni and "legitimacy" in authority via some blood link to the Prophet Muhammad is non existant, Sunnis dont care about such things.
5. As I said before, Arabs are patriarchal hence some peoples claiming to be Arab.
Lastly on the word Khalifat. Don't google, learn arabic. Khalifat can mean successor, but in the since that something physically comes after the next. Not in the since of line of heredity. You googling isn't going to help you learn etymology, that comes from years of studying the language (which I have). The word Khalifat is made up of the root kh, lam and fa. Here we do have the meaning to succeed, but in other instances it can mean to leave behind, to keep back etc. So in this instance we see there is no since of heredity here, just something that is behind the next thing.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ That makes sense. LOL He is the first Egyptian leader that looks indigenous in a long time.
quote:Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I understand that having Arab ancestry makes one 'Arab', but is it not true that there is a trend of Ashraf or Sharif status among many Islamicized groups to claim Arab ancestry? There are groups in Africa who claim Arab ancestry yet have no valid proof or evidence of such except genealogies they made up. This is also the case in Asia as far east as Indonesia and even the Philippines where there are clerical families who claim Arab ancestry also.
You see this a lot among Pakistani and Indian Shi'a Muslims who claim to be "Sayyid" (decedent from the Imams). Which may be true, but I doubt it given the GREAT number of people there making this claim. I mean, the Imams' families were but so big. how did they spawn THAT many people. Also, those Imams were black according to Ahadith, and if the people claiming descent are not themselves still black, yet they claim to be purely descendent from one of those imams, that posses a serious problem with their claims.
I should say though, I think its less about being Arab or thinking Arabs hold some sort of special status and it is more about being linked to a Prophet and his family.
To me it is no different than these Ashkenazi jews claiming to be Cohen or Levite when we know very well these people are converted slavs by way of the Khazars.
This is my point exactly. There are many peoples in Islamic countries or communities who claim Arab ancestry just to connect themselves with Muhammad. These people would even go through the trouble of constructing false genealogies and family trees showing an Arab ancestor. The worse cases are families who even claim ancestry from Muhammad's tribe or clan! There are families in Pakistan and India and even in Indonesia who say they descend from Prophet Muhammad's second cousin twice removed or something like that! LOL
The reason for this is because in Islamic religion the word of Muhammad is considered the law and those who are the leaders of Islam are also considered the embodiment of "the word" as "the law". In this tradition, Muhammad was illiterate everything that was passed down from him was by word of mouth as the words of the Prophet on how Muslims should live. These words then got passed on to his followers who then passed them on to their followers and so forth. Hence it is by being a descendant of one of these folks that one is passing on "the law" or the words of the Prophet in leading "the faithful" and the followers of Islam. Hence being a descendant of Muhammad becomes a sign of authority and legitimacy.
All of this is based around the framework of Hadith as the basis for Islamic Jurisprudence. By being a descendant of Muhammad, one is able to declare a hadith or law based on the idea that this is the literal word of Muhammad passed down from one of his followers. There is a whole school of Hadith in Islam and many hadith have been found to be bogus, but this is the power and authority many Islamic leaders were looking legitimatize by claiming descent from the Prophet.
It is no different that the divine right of kings as the executors of God's law in the Christian tradition or the Divine word of Ptah as the basis for the authority of the Pharaohs.
100% inaccurate. The law is derived from the Quran and from Ahadith. All of which were written down during the life of Prophet Muhammad. However it was organized in its final form during the khalifa of Abu Bakr. The leaders/khalif is not above the two sources i.e. Quran and those laws derived from seerat muhammad or ahadith.
Now as to how hadith are found to be sound or not, one uses the chain of transmission to do this. Has nothing to do with being a descendent of the Prophet Muhammad (s3w) that is 100% inaccurate. You, I think are mixing SOME ideology of the shi'a with some other thing (which I am not sure of what it is) which is not based in reality.
I didn't say that all hadith were sound. You actually are backing up my point and confirming what I said. And the issue is not hadith the issue is why people want to claim descent from Muhammad which absolutely does have something to do with line of transmission of authority over the Ummah. This is especially true regarding the role of Caliph in Islam. In fact, the term Caliph itself means successor. So I think you should understand what I am saying.
The fact is that there are many hadiths that have been claimed as unsound and many traditions that are disputed between the main branches of Islam because of the differences in opinion related to Isnad, Hadith and Sahaba. (Line of transmission, statements or actions of Muhammad and those who were companions of the prophet)
Also, this has to do with the tradition of clans and identification in Arab culture being based on descent from a paternal ancestor. Hence many Arab clans are named after an eponymous male ancestor and all the progeny of the clan are identified with this ancestor led theoretically by someone of direct descent from that ancestor. In reality direct descent is not always the basis of the rulership of these clans and often times many non blood kin are identified as part of the clan even if they have no real ties to the patriarch. That is how Arabs were able to Arabize so many people in many areas into the concept of being Arab even though they are not Arab in the least. Sudan is a good example of this. One Arab male in the line at any point in the past and they are Arab and that ancestor becomes their patriarch.
Again, your wrong.
I get it, you google and thats fine. I am a Muslim, I know Arabic and I know my religion very well, as I should. I studied under a Mufti for almost a decade.
The last part of your point is irrelevant, because your first part is misguided.
You do not know much about Islam it seems and your probably googling I assume.
1. Shi'i Islam gives credence to someone being from the line of the Prophet Muhammad. Specifically to a specific line of successors. When one is about to die, supposedly he names his successor. These successors are not called khalifat, they are called Imam and the successorship is called al Imamat or Al Wilayat. Imamat comes from the root Alif, meem and meem. This can mean to be in front of, to be before (in proximity) or to lead or be a leader. Example if I say nahnu imam al shobaak (we are in front of the window). Wilayat has the root wa lam and ya. This can mean succession, sequence, series, continuation, or uninterrupted. In the case of these Imams the idea is that they are a uninterrupted line of men who descend from Prophet Muhammad (saw), who are ordained by Allah (swt) to lead the Ummat Muhammad (saw). Again this is something Sunnis do NOT adhere to, this is aqeeda al Shia.
2. Sunni Islam hold no such belief that successorship entitles someone to have any legitimate authority in Islam. I should add the khalif is to administer the affairs of the state and safe guard the sanctity of Islam. However, they generally speaking in the case of the later Khalifat do not give Islamic rulings. They differed to religious scholars. Even in the case of the first 3, they differed to Ali Ibn Abi Talib in many instances. Abu Bakr was NOT a blood relative (which the Imamat dictates you must be). Neither was Omar, Uthman, Mu3wiya etc. etc. I should add though that Abu Bakr did make one decision based on what he claimed was religious grounds which caused Fatima (as) (daughter of Prophet Muhammad) not to speak to him again and she made Ali Ibn Abi Talib swear to not have Abu Bakr at her funeral. But I believe he did that for political reasons.
3. Only A'li (ra) was a blood relative, he is the one the Shi'i believe was the first of their Imams after prophet Muhammad (saw). It is their hadith that you must be able to tie the Isnad back to one of the Imams which then goes back to A'li Ibn Abi Talib (ra) and from him to Prophet Muhammad (saw). Were as with Sunni, it can go through someone who knew one of the companions. By someone, I mean in the plural sense, because that isnad can be a long one. Especially since the hadith were compiled some generations after the fact.
4. So your using the Sudan as a example makes no sense in this situation, because they are Sunni and "legitimacy" in authority via some blood link to the Prophet Muhammad is non existant, Sunnis dont care about such things.
5. As I said before, Arabs are patriarchal hence some peoples claiming to be Arab.
Lastly on the word Khalifat. Don't google, learn arabic. Khalifat can mean successor, but in the since that something physically comes after the next. Not in the since of line of heredity. You googling isn't going to help you learn etymology, that comes from years of studying the language (which I have). The word Khalifat is made up of the root kh, lam and fa. Here we do have the meaning to succeed, but in other instances it can mean to leave behind, to keep back etc. So in this instance we see there is no since of heredity here, just something that is behind the next thing.
I appreciate your observations as a Muslim. I am not questioning that. But the point I am making which you have not discussed or challenged is why so many rulers in Islam play up descent from Muhammad, which you yourself admit is partly based on traditions of the law and leadership stemming from being related to or a companion of Muhammad. You haven't shown that to be incorrect.
Of course all Muslim rulers don't follow this, but that isn't the point. For example the Khedives of Egypt following Muhammad Ali was based on the idea of ruling "from oneself" as in one's own power.
Anyway:
quote: The Alaouite Dynasty is the name of the current Moroccan royal family. The name Alaouite comes from the Ali of its founder Moulay Ali Cherif who became Prince of Tafilalt in 1631. His son Mulay r-Rshid (1664-1672) was able to unite and pacify the country. The Alaouite family claim descent from Muhammad through the line of Fatimah az-Zahrah, Muhammad's daughter, and her husband, the Fourth Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib.
According to some legends the Alaouites entered Morocco at the end of the 13th century when Al Hassan Addakhil, who lived then in the town of Yanbu in the Hejaz, was brought to Morocco by the inhabitants of Tafilalet to be their imam. They were hoping that, as he was a descendant of Muhammad, his presence would help to improve their date palm crops thanks to his barakah "blessing", an Arabic term meaning a sense of divine presence or charisma. His descendants began to increase their power in southern Morocco after the death of the Saadi ruler Ahmad al-Mansur (1578-1603). In 1669, the last Saadi sultan was overthrown in the conquest of Marrakesh by Mulay r-Rshid (1664-1672). After the victory over the zawila of Dila, who controlled northern Morocco, he was able to unite and pacify the country.
posted
Can you guys put quote the last response of each other instead of putting quotes around the entire past quotes?? Your arguments get muddled that way.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I appreciate your observations as a Muslim. I am not questioning that. But the point I am making which you have not discussed or challenged is why so many rulers in Islam play up descent from Muhammad, which you yourself admit is partly based on traditions of the law and leadership stemming from being related to or a companion of Muhammad. You haven't shown that to be incorrect.
Of course all Muslim rulers don't follow this, but that isn't the point. For example the Khedives of Egypt following Muhammad Ali was based on the idea of ruling "from oneself" as in one's own power.
Anyway:
quote: The Alaouite Dynasty is the name of the current Moroccan royal family. The name Alaouite comes from the Ali of its founder Moulay Ali Cherif who became Prince of Tafilalt in 1631. His son Mulay r-Rshid (1664-1672) was able to unite and pacify the country. The Alaouite family claim descent from Muhammad through the line of Fatimah az-Zahrah, Muhammad's daughter, and her husband, the Fourth Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib.
According to some legends the Alaouites entered Morocco at the end of the 13th century when Al Hassan Addakhil, who lived then in the town of Yanbu in the Hejaz, was brought to Morocco by the inhabitants of Tafilalet to be their imam. They were hoping that, as he was a descendant of Muhammad, his presence would help to improve their date palm crops thanks to his barakah "blessing", an Arabic term meaning a sense of divine presence or charisma. His descendants began to increase their power in southern Morocco after the death of the Saadi ruler Ahmad al-Mansur (1578-1603). In 1669, the last Saadi sultan was overthrown in the conquest of Marrakesh by Mulay r-Rshid (1664-1672). After the victory over the zawila of Dila, who controlled northern Morocco, he was able to unite and pacify the country.
*sigh* You don't know enough about history or Islam to have this conversation. Research the history of those north african arab rulers. They descend from SHIA, get that through your skull. What you are talking about relates to SHIA, PERIOD. It has nothing to do with Sunni Islam (WHICH THE SUDANI MUSLIMS ARE). Your entire argument is based on your limited knowledge on Islam, Arabic and History. This is why wikipedia and google are so dangerous. People find stuff to back up their misguided opinions and run with it as if it is the truth. I am sorry if I am being rude, but I don't get why you would continue to argue when you must admit, your knowledge is limited on this subject. Ever heard of the university called Al Azhar in Egypt? Guess what, founded by Arab Shi'a. Look up fatimids. That is why these things are so important to those north africans. They even observe Moharram, which is unheard of in the Sunni world. This is a hold over from when the Shi'a dynasty(ies) were over north Africa. There is a thing called context, and you don't seem to grasp it in this instance.
P.S. Alawiya (which is what your wikipedia *smh* article talks about) are those who descend from Ali, this is what I was talking about previously, this is a Shi'a thing. Maybe because of my spelling you are missing the plot. In the west they spell it as Shitte. That is the bastardized form of the arabic word Shi'a.
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