posted
Has anyone here read 'The Battle for Kemet' by Charles A.Grantham?
I've just read the chapter 'The Unwrapping of Egyptology' where Frank Yurco is made to admit that the ancient Egyptians were black. Superb reading!
‘In 1998, after reading Yurco’s “Two Tomb-Wall Painted Reliefs of Rameses III and Sety I and Ancient Nile Valley Population Diversity” in which he proclaimed that the “four races of man” pastiche used by many African-centred writers to demonstrate that the ancient Egyptians viewed themselves as a black people, is based on a nineteenth century copy that is incorrect, I informed Yurco that not only had I been in the tomb of Ramesses III but that I personally photographed the wall painting. He seemed somewhat surprised at the time. I invited him to view the photos at a training session for volunteers that I was conducting the following day at the Field Museum of Natural History . He did not show. Although we would occasionally see one another at the museum , nothing more was said about his article or my photographs, that is until the museum conducted another volunteer training session for the new Cleopatra exhibit which opened in October 2001. I saw Yurco at the first session and decided then and there that I would give him a copy of “The Unwrapping of Egyptology”, which was first published in the Kemetic Voice in 1999. The following week I did just that. I personally handed him a copy of the Kemetic Voice and asked him to read the article and to give me feedback. Amiably, he agreed. However, he did not show for the final training session. I do not know whether my article had anything to do with his absence, but I was reminded of the first time I tried to present him with this information in 1998.
Finally an opportunity presented itself during a walk-through of the Cleopatra exhibit. As I stood near the exit of the exhibit, I saw Yurco explaining certain aspects of the exhibit to a group of volunteers. I positioned myself so that it was virtually impossible for him to pass without seeing me. To my amazement, Yurco scurried right past me without uttering one word. I literally ran after him. Fortunately, there were two other members of the Kemetic Institute present to witness this encounter. When I caught Yurco and asked him what he thought about the article, the first thing he said was “I still maintain that it is a pastiche.” It was obvious from his statement that he had read the article. I again agreed with him on that point and pressed him further with regard to the contents of the pastiche and my photographs. In other words, were the ancient Egyptians as depicted in the tomb of Ramesses III shown in the same skin colour and dress as the Kushites?
Still walking hurriedly and looking quite ill at ease Yurco finally conceded that the depiction of the ancient Egyptians in the tomb of Ramesses III shows them to have the same black skin colour and dress as the Kushites. When asked if this was a valid representation of the ancient Egyptians, Yurco again conceded. ‘ (p34).
What I would give to be able to skewer a mainstream Egyptologist like that!
Given that Yurco had actually visited the tomb of Ramesses III, what are we to make of this epdisode and the refusal even now of Egyptologists to admit that the Kemetians were black Africans?
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
We are to leave them alone with their denials and opinions, know for ourselves and go about our business. Yurco is one of the many Egytologists i respect, not merited by their level of liberalism but by their ability to deliver and contribute more professional work on the subject of Egyptology. That is probably as far as my respect goes for many mainstream Egyptologists. As a people, we don't need to protest or force the mainstream to acknowledge the truth. Yurco and his associates have already had their own share in perpetuating dishonest work; e.g. BG 4:5 vg30 iconography comes to mind. Are we not to expect more dishonesty from them? Professor Ampin et al did a great job explaining the scene from KV11. Why the need for more approval from foreigners?
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
For anyone wondering the depiction causing controversy...
Anyone mind saving and posting this scene on the egyptsearchreloaded & NVF forum. I was lucky enough to find this scene on my hard drive.
Posts: 535 | From: From the Darkest of the Abyss | Registered: Apr 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Sahel broadbrush pimp slaps the yellow rat bastards.
Well Yurco and Theban Mapping Project and Etc will have to be the rats asses now won't they.
Ampim take note. No glare, true color, and text from the Gate of Teka Hra overhead.
As further context, vignette and glyphs continue with A3MW on the far left wall.
Charles A.Grantham: Still walking hurriedly and looking quite ill at ease Yurco finally conceded that the depiction of the ancient Egyptians in the tomb of Ramesses III shows them to have the same black skin colour and dress as the Kushites. When asked if this was a valid representation of the ancient Egyptians, Yurco again conceded. ‘ (p34). What I would give to be able to skewer a mainstream Egyptologist like that!
He conceded by saying what?
quote:Originally posted by clausVon3600:
Charles A.Grantham: "were the ancient Egyptians as depicted in the tomb of Ramesses III shown in the same skin colour and dress as the Kushites? "
-Grantham says the Egyptians were shown in the same dress as Kushites. This is what indicates that the scribe or illustrator made an error. There are two craftsmen involved, the scribe for the glyphs and the painter for the figures. One or the other sometimes made mistakes and these mistakes have been noted by art historians. Such mistakes would not have been corrected because the tombs were sealed and not on public view as they are today. The Kushites had some different clothing than the Egyptians. This is well established For example other than the mistake in this wall painting, Egyptians are not depicted with large hoop earrings or the long and wide belt/sash which goes around the waist and diagonally across the chest. -Also the pattern on the clothing, large dots. It is pathetic trying to build a case around such a mistake, an anomaly. It actually errodes credibility for stronger arguments that the Egyptians were exclusive to Africa.
Had there been depicted Egyptians wearing Egyptian clothes but being portrayed as jet black as the Kushites then such an argument could be made. Nowhere else in this same tomb, where there are scenes of Egyptians do you find them jet black and wearing Kushite clothes. The only time an Egyptian is shown as jet black, it's never in groups, it is when Osiris or a king being shown in Osiris form. Example:
Tutankhamun
(below) Tutankhamun, tomb guardian figue, black symbolic of Osiris (Ausar) lord of the underworld
This does not mean that the Egyptians were or were not indigenous Africans. It just means that groups Kushites are shown as sometimes jet black and sometimes brown but groups of Egyptians are never shown as jet black .
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
but groups of Egyptians are never shown as jet black .
Dumbass, since when does being "jet black" exclude one from being Egyptian? Dark skin color does not mean "foreign" in Egypt. It is part of built in native Egyptian variability. You are such an idiot, re-arguing the same debunked nonsense time and time again.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Most Africans are brown. Some individuals of the Dinka tribe look nearly black. However as many thosuands of paintings of ancient Egyptians show, they were not jet black
^^^ the man's skin is brown. His hair is jet black like the Kushite's skin above
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
but groups of Egyptians are never shown as jet black.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Wow! So the person who did the original work made the same mistake over and over again?
Tell us, why didn't Yurco spot the 'mistake'?
He did You need to look at what Frank Yurco actually said a whole paragraph quote in context .
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Most Africans are brown. Some individuals of the Dinka tribe look nearly black. However as many thosuands of paintings of ancient Egyptians show, they were not jet black
Idiot. Dark skin does not exclude one from being Egyptian. And if most Africans were brown, then they are the same skin tone as the ancient Egyptians. -----------------------------------------------------------
but groups of Egyptians are never shown as jet black.
---------------------------------
How many times do people have to flush your BS before it goes away?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Syrian and Nubian
Most Africans are brown. Some individuals of the Dinka tribe look nearly black. However as many thosuands of paintings of ancient Egyptians show, they were not jet black
Idiot. Dark skin does not exclude one from being Egyptian. And if most Africans were brown, then they are the same skin tone as the ancient Egyptians.
dark brown skin is not jet black skin
Some people of Egyptian nationality had foreign backgrounds, examples: Libyan, Nubian 25th, Hyksos, Syrian immigrant workers, all Egyptian nationals
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Wow! So the person who did the original work made the same mistake over and over again?
This Table of nations is only one set of four figures which repeat another set of four figures. Nowhere else in the tomb of Seti 1 or similar scenes such as in Ramesses tomb are you going to see Egyptians depicted in Kushite clothing with hoop earrings.
Oh dear. I would like to see the evidence that Frank Yurco spotted the 'mistake' as you say he did. You're using his supposed spotting of the 'mistake' as a support to your argument, so as not to make your thesis seem so outlandish.
Tell me, what do other Egyptologists say about the authenticity of the table?
Are you the only person , safely anonymous in cyberspace, arguing that the original artist made the 'mistake'? And repeatedly?
Common sense dictates that he would have had to have made the 'mistake' repeatedly over a period of time, without it being noted, no?
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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Oh dear. I would like to see the evidence that Frank Yurco spotted the 'mistake' as you say he did. You're using his supposed spotting of the 'mistake' as a support to your argument, so as not to make your thesis seem so outlandish.
Tell me, what do other Egyptologists say about the authenticity of the table?
Are you the only person , safely anonymous in cyberspace, arguing that the original artist made the 'mistake'? And repeatedly?
Common sense dictates that he would have had to have made the 'mistake' repeatedly over a period of time, without it being noted, no?
do the research. I wouldn't call it a mistake "over and over again" It's a repeat of a set of four figures in a row. Each set of 4 is of the same type, 4 of each type. Illustrations you may see condense it to only one of each type. The heiroglyphic description of the set of 4 is spread out in between each the four and only one of them is a symbol normally used for Egyptians, RMT. there is a scribe for the glyph and there is a seperate person who did the painting. One of them made an error it appears and other Egyptologists have noted it.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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'One of them made an error it appears and other Egyptologists have noted it.'
Care to provide names?
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Not gonna letya distract away off target.
It's not about any rendition except KV11. For whatever reason Ramses III's tomb has black skinned Egyptians, all Nehesi pimped out down to the bracelets, in the first rank.
When through peripheral pussy footing, moral of the story, Yurco, Hornung, TMP, and all the rest were wronger than sin. Worse still, all along they knew they were lying through their teeth.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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And in the tomb, how many sets of 4 were there depicting each of the races?
Posts: 838 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
This [KV11f] Table of nations is [the] only one [with a] set of four figures which [duplicate] another set of four figures.
Nowhere else in the tomb of Seti 1 or similar scenes [except] in Ramesses tomb [KV11f] are you going to see [Gate of Teka Hra scene 30] Egyptians depicted in Kushite clothing with hoop earrings.
Yes, that is a fact.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Something i was wondering related to this controversial tomb painting... In the same reproduction from Lepsius, the lybians are depicted with white skin and fair hair. Isn't this reproduction from lepsius the only instance of the AE's depicting lybians with white skin (in tomb paintings i've seen, the lybians are depicted as dark brown with black hair)? So, if that's the only instance, why haven't scholars questioned whether this depiction is correct as they have questioned the black skinned AE depiction? Instead we get many scholars talking about how the lybians were european transplants.
Since it's been verified that the AE's were depicted in the actual painting as black skinned, has it been also verified that they depicted the lybians with white skin in said painting?
Posts: 214 | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
^^^ The Lybians were never depicted White Skinned and fair haired, only that Cartoon on the internet are Lybians depiced as whites. They are Brownish Yellow.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
^^I reposted the question in a more relevant thread here along with the specific image from the lepsius repro that i'm referring to.
Posts: 214 | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
You mean to tell me that Yuro was lying? Sandiata and the Filipino jackass wont be pleased to hear that about their favorite Egyptologist.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Tutankhamun
(below) Tutankhamun, tomb guardian figue, black symbolic of Osiris (Ausar) lord of the underworld
The first picture of Tut's head from the lotus is a MODERN rendition not the actual authentic one shown here:
Not surprising you only show the other bust flooded with light to give a lighter appearance.
By the way the black-colored Ka statues of Tut was made black not to represent Ausar (Osiris) the black color is symbolic of rebirth.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^ Do you think I give a damn about your exploitation of that woman in your stupid strawman argument??
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeinggay: You mean to tell me that Yurco was lying? Sandiata and the Filipino jackass wont be pleased to hear that about their favorite Egyptologist.
Since when have I claimed Yurco as my "favorite" Egyptologist? I already expressed my views on Yurco here. Everybody knows you're the jackass of Egyptsearch. Go back to your bathroom buggery, lad.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
did you ever notice Djehuti and Truthcentric are the ones who insist on true negro levels of skin darkness? Why is that?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Do you think I give a damn about your exploitation of that woman in your stupid strawman argument??
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeinggay: You mean to tell me that Yurco was lying? Sandiata and the Filipino jackass wont be pleased to hear that about their favorite Egyptologist.
Since when have I claimed Yurco as my "favorite" Egyptologist? I already expressed my views on Yurco here. Everybody knows you're the jackass of Egyptsearch. Go back to your bathroom buggery, lad.
Right on cue my silly Filipino friend. But a 2012 thread? LOL You want to forget all those pre-2012 posts of you supporting people like Yuro as not only credible but one who claims the AEs were black. But then again you are known for speaking from both sides of your mouth. How do you live with yourself?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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