posted
I found out quite recently that Berbers and Andalusians, Kurds and Berbers in the Fatimid alliance, Greek Copts and Egyptian Copts in Egypt had a lot of same color problems and conflict that is found in modern times. Apparently these problems were similar or an earlier cycle of what's going on today - in Libya especially. Even the so-called Zanj revolt turned out to be a revolt of a mainly black Arabs and a minority of black Africans all free in Iraq.
The Berbers especially during Almoravid and Almohad periods had a rather intense racial problem and rivalry with the native Muslim Andalusis or rulers of the Spanish Muslims. It may not have started out racial, but as usual it ended up that way.
Here are a few examples from texts of what I am talking about.
Al Raqiq who was a servant of the North African Sanhaja Zirids wrote about the conflict in Cordoba. He "illustrates through anecdote this animosity but this time gives his story racial overtones. We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”. p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.
Cordoba although a slave state was at that time "the most sophisticated city in Europe".
Beginning in the 10th century with the "half-Basque" blue eyed Abdul Rahman III there had been a growing population of Muslims among the ruling classes that were partly descended from white slaves yet had claimed Arab ethnicity. There was also a large Slavic population that were the former slaves of the Umayyads occupying the Levant region in Spain. The earliest Arabian population however was from the Yemen and from other tribes that are noted as being black in the Arabian peninsula during that same period. As Thomas Arnold put it in his book, Legacy of Islam (published 1931), the slaves were mostly “from the Slavonic peoples”, and in Spain, Muslims “preferred the mothers of their children to be those fair-complexioned slaves captured in the north of Spain, rather than, or in addition to, their own womenfolk…” Persians and Turks were also called "the freedmen" by the Umayyads at this time.
By the time the Almoravids arrived in the 11th century many of the Muslims are already other than the original Moorish Masmuda/Zanata populations i.e. other than black.
At the turn of the 11th century an ibn Abi Amir had begun to import a large number of Berber mercenaries especially from the Sanhaja tribe that had already a developed disliked for the Umayyads. This ibn Abi Amir was continuing what Abd er Rahman had done.
The imported Berbers were "professional soldiers known for their horsemanship and outstanding courage" Abi Amir used them for military campaigns against the Christian Europeans of Navarr,e LEon and Castille.
Each year Ibn abi Amir "would return from these campaigns with many thousands of captives, male and female" pp. 41-42 (1992) Jayyusi and Marin "The Political History of al-Andalus" in The Legacy of Muslim Spain
The Sanhaja groups (derived from the Tuareg/Songhai populations) had taken over Cordoba and apparently many of the Hispano Muslims resented it. Anger had grown against these Berbers in their Cordoban capital called Madinat al- Zahra, and it came to the point where they had to be armed to be safe. Much of this anger came from the upper classes who actually may have been quite different from the plebeians who are given the derogatory names such as "sawad". In any case " it is difficult to ascertain whether it was all the Cordobans, both the mob and the nobility that who hated the Berbers, as the sources are vague as to who exactly were the initiators of this animosity: 'they say hatred of the Berbers was made known'". p. 67 The Fall of the Caliphate
According to historian Peter C. Scales sometime in the 11th century "The fitna in Cordoba between the people and the Berbers flared up... The mob was given free reign to attack the Berber tribes. It was presumably in this pogrom that Abd Al Malik al Muzaffar's old teacher Ahmad bin Abda'l Azziz bin Faraj Ibn al-Hubab, a grammarian had died. Ibn Bashkuwal tells us that he was a Berber of the Masmuda tribe. It would seem that the murder of North Africans encouraged by Muhammed al-Mahdi's request to be brought Berber heads was not restricted to the capital." p 70
Also Ibn abdal Jabbar "a Hispano Muslim ordered any who had a similar appearance to a Berber to be killed.” p. 74
"There are certainly 2 instances documented of innocent Maghrebis being caught up in the racial animousity where vented by the local populations in the south of al-Andalus. In Elvira a pilgrim from Ceuta, a certain Khalaf b. Ali b. Nasir b. Mansur al Balawi al Sabti, ..." p. 70
The name Balawi is always a reference to the Baliyy or Baliyyun of Idrisi tribe of the Himyarites occupying Hadramaut and Africa, so this person could have been either Arabian or Berber.
"Another Khalaf (b.Masud al Jarawi) a faqir from Melilla was murdered by the people of Malaga 'during the Andalusi revolt against the Berbers at the time of the al-Mahdi's uprising.'" Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba
Thus a man of the Jarawa tribe (i.e. Garawan or Wangara) who were "a huge portion" of the Zanata Berbers in that period was killed. The Daza inhabitants of Fezzan and Germa are largely descended from Garawan and still call themselves Garan or Goran.
At one point Berbers were concentrated in a segregated section of Cordoba. “The Berbers had been quartered in the palace of al-Zahra but were in fear of their lives if they went out alone.” p. 73 After having to flee this place, "The Berbers returned to al-Zahra to evacuate their families and belongings…".(p. 77) For “Muhammed (al-mahdi)solemnly swore to never rest until he had rid himself of all the Berbers. " p. 77 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba
After these Almoravid Berbers got back in power under a Sulayman al Musta'in Andalusia was distributed to various Berber tribes. The Sanhaja (Tuareg/Songhai) received Elvira (Grenada), the Maghrawa branch of the Zanata received areas north of Cordoba, the Banu Yafran/Ifren or (Ifuren Tuareg tribe) received Jaen. Other Zenata received other fiefs.
Another example of white Muslim racial insults against the Berbers is evidenced in the story of Al Ja'far or Gafar a poet who fell in love with the same woman the son of the Almohad ruler had a thing for.
Abu Ga'far was already involved in a conspiracy against the Berbers and their leaders which at that time were Abd'Al-Mumin a Zanata member of the mostly Masmuda Almohades dynasty and his son.
He had been working for Abd-al Mumin but the last straw was when he mockingly insulted Abdal-Mumin's son saying "What do you see in that black fellow? If you wish, I could buy you ten better ones in the slave market."
"Hearing that he was to be imprisoned the poet fled to Malaga" where he was not long afterwards executed.
Some people just can't be trusted.
The idea that Berbers were of obviously different appearance from the Spaniards including their Spanish Muslim countrymen is born out by the documents.
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posted
Of course other early hints of racial contempt are found with documenters of the crusades when the Europeans mentions the "giant" black men in the Holy land amongst the foes wearing red turbans. (The other people they met were the non-black Kurds like Salah-ed-din.)
This black part of the Muslim enemy are described in a primary texts describing the crusades Itinerarium Peregrinorum as "...a fiendish race, forceful and relentless, deformed by nature and unlike other living beings, black in color, of enormous stature and inhuman savageness. Instead of helmets they wore red coverings (i.e. turbans) on their heads, brandishing in their hands clubs bristling with iron teeth, whose shattering blows neither helmets nor mailshirts could resist. As a standard they carried a carved effigy of Muhammad..."
These giant black men in red turbans were likely Hijazi Arabians who extending through Central Arabia not the Berbers.
"for turbans are the crowns the Arabs when a man's people made him a chief they bound his head with a turban as kings wore crowns so the chiefs of the Arabs wore red turbans: (L, TA:) there were brought to the desert, from Harah, red turbans, which the nobles among the Arabs wore..." (Lane, Arabic-English lexicon. Asian Educational Services, 1985, p. 2058).
There was also apparently contempt between these Arabs who had settled in Africa and the Syrians.
"Balj and his Syrians soon made themselves thoroughly hated by the African Arabs, especially the Ansars, who after the battle in the Harrah (683AD) had fled in large bodies to the west after the battle of Harra." E.G. Brill's Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913-1936 Vol. II p. 617
Syrians were also used against the Berbers in the earliest period of the Muslims in Spain. As early as the 8th century Spain had seen a considerable influx of men from Syria and Iraq.
The immigration of Berbers were the bulk of the Muslims in Spain between the 8th and the 13th centuries, unquestionably.
"The immigration of Berbers in the eigthh through twelfth centuries was so great that they were soon the majority of the Muslim population. By the end of the tenth century they were already 'the mainstay of the government under the Amirids' and had begun to establish independent states(Toledo, Badajoz, Malaga, Elvira, Granada, Algericas). By the end of the next century as we shall see, they already controlled all of Andalus. However the so-called "Arabs" (i.e. Syrians) generally controlled the government and made significant cultural contributions." p. 45, (1994). Jews, Visigoths, and Muslims in Medieval Spain. by N. Roth
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Libyan Faience tile from the royal palace at Medinet Habu. Ramesses III ( 1186–1155 BC)
Cheikh Anta Diop said the Berbers were descendants of Sea people and also intermarrtied with Vandals. Kabyles tend to have that look. Diop said ancient Egyptians were unrelated to Berbers.
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^ LOL Typical Lyinass strawman post which has NOTHING to do with what Dana is talking about!
More to the point. Modern day Spaniards portraying the Moors who once occupied them.
Interesting findings by the way, Dana. There's no way getting around it. The Moors looked different from the native Spaniards as well as Syrians and Iraqis. What could it be?... Oh yeah, they're black. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Libyan Faience tile from the royal palace at Medinet Habu. Ramesses III ( 1186–1155 BC)
Cheikh Anta Diop said the Berbers were descendants of Sea people and also intermarrtied with Vandals. Kabyles tend to have that look. Diop said ancient Egyptians were unrelated to Berbers.
Where is your evidence of a Berber tribe that wasn't described as black before the 15th century. I have been waiting for some months now.
Kabylia where tens of thousands of Germanic Vandal people - according to Procopius and other texts - settled is not a Berber tribe. Its a geographical place name. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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. "We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”. p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.
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Don't forget the poor land allotments after the initial conquest of Iberia, which led to the Berber Revolt.
I figured it was well-known Berbers were widely discriminated against, especially in terms of housing and employment. They were mostly rural and did rather menial jobs. Also, the Caliph's Black Guard had a menacing presence in Cordoba.
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^ I didn't know that. I though because the Bebers conquered Iberia, they were in a position of supremacy.
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There were of course upper class Berbers in every city through the entire period. The vast majority were rural and poor, however.
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^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?
I think it also had something to do with what happened with the Almoravids got into power, but i can't remember. Would have to go back and look.
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Don't forget the poor land allotments after the initial conquest of Iberia, which led to the Berber Revolt.
I figured it was well-known Berbers were widely discriminated against, especially in terms of housing and employment. They were mostly rural and did rather menial jobs. Also, the Caliph's Black Guard had a menacing presence in Cordoba.
hi jehosafats - have you long been a member here, and just now returning, because if so I can see why you left with all of the trolls about?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?
I think it also had something to do with what happened with the Almoravids got into power, but i can't remember. Would have to go back and look.
The Almovarids are described as Berbers
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”.
p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: hi jehosafats - have you long been a member here, and just now returning, because if so I can see why you left with all of the trolls about? [/QB]
I drop by from time to time. Ausur guided me here some years back. We used to talk Egyptology and African history in general on yahoo chat.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Yes we know Berbers were not the only black people in Iberia, Neanderdull. Blacks from the Sudan and Arabia can be included.
Just as Masmuda Berbers were not the only blacks in the Fatimid army.
“the Fatimid army was largely an infantry force composed of blacks. (Nasir-i Khusrau included the Masamida among the blacks)” parentheses are the author's State and Society in Fatimid Egypt. 1991, p. 94.
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"Most of the military slaves of Islam were white. . . . Black military slaves were, however, not unknown ." "While the white units of the Fatimid army were incorporated by Saladin in his own forces, the black regiments were disbanded " Bernard Lewis pp. 65-67 Race and Slavery in the Middle East.
There was much racial conflict and discrimination against the blacks in general in the Fatimid army by the Kurdish leader Saladin.
In addition Heru/Jehoshaphat pointed me to a scholarly text providing evidence that the whole idea of a Zanj slave revolt includes was a European colonialist projection and not only were their mainly free men involve but they were mostly Arabians and not Zanj who were also mainly free men.
M. Shaban, “The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region.” Shaban, M.A. (1976). Islamic history: A new interpretation. 750-1055. Vol. 2. Cambridge University Press. page 101
Maybe that is why the descendants of these Qays Arabs in Iraq are considered 2/3rd of the black population there.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ So what do you make of this attack against Berbers? Do you think this was done by white natives against people who saw them as oppressors?
I think it also had something to do with what happened with the Almoravids got into power, but i can't remember. Would have to go back and look.
The Almovarids are described as Berbers
And the Berbers were described as black in that period as MOST of these Guddala and Lamtuna who were the Almoravids - still called Ilamtuna or Kel Aulammidden or Tuareg, still are.
in case you forgot
Sorry if you don't like the term black - the Muslim Spaniards sure did.
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posted
LOL @ the lyinass still stuck in the delusion that Berbers were not black. I believe she is fixated on the white foreigners of the coastal areas who adopted the African Berber language and/or mixed with Berber men.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I found out quite recently that Berbers and Andalusians, Kurds and Berbers in the Fatimid alliance, Greek Copts and Egyptian Copts in Egypt had a lot of same color problems and conflict that is found in modern times. Apparently these problems were similar or an earlier cycle of what's going on today - in Libya especially. Even the so-called Zanj revolt turned out to be a revolt of a mainly black Arabs and a minority of black Africans all free in Iraq.
The Berbers especially during Almoravid and Almohad periods had a rather intense racial problem and rivalry with the native Muslim Andalusis or rulers of the Spanish Muslims. It may not have started out racial, but as usual it ended up that way.
Here are a few examples from texts of what I am talking about.
Al Raqiq who was a servant of the North African Sanhaja Zirids wrote about the conflict in Cordoba. He "illustrates through anecdote this animosity but this time gives his story racial overtones. We are told of a woman returning from an oven with a pot, which she dropped thus attracting attention to herself. On noticing she was black, the Cordobans shouted ‘there is a black Berber’, and she was killed.”. p. 75 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba: Berbers and Andalusis in Conflict.
Cordoba although a slave state was at that time "the most sophisticated city in Europe".
Beginning in the 10th century with the "half-Basque" blue eyed Abdul Rahman III there had been a growing population of Muslims among the ruling classes that were partly descended from white slaves yet had claimed Arab ethnicity. There was also a large Slavic population that were the former slaves of the Umayyads occupying the Levant region in Spain. The earliest Arabian population however was from the Yemen and from other tribes that are noted as being black in the Arabian peninsula during that same period. As Thomas Arnold put it in his book, Legacy of Islam (published 1931), the slaves were mostly “from the Slavonic peoples”, and in Spain, Muslims “preferred the mothers of their children to be those fair-complexioned slaves captured in the north of Spain, rather than, or in addition to, their own womenfolk…” Persians and Turks were also called "the freedmen" by the Umayyads at this time.
By the time the Almoravids arrived in the 11th century many of the Muslims are already other than the original Moorish Masmuda/Zanata populations i.e. other than black.
At the turn of the 11th century an ibn Abi Amir had begun to import a large number of Berber mercenaries especially from the Sanhaja tribe that had already a developed disliked for the Umayyads. This ibn Abi Amir was continuing what Abd er Rahman had done.
The imported Berbers were "professional soldiers known for their horsemanship and outstanding courage" Abi Amir used them for military campaigns against the Christian Europeans of Navarr,e LEon and Castille.
Each year Ibn abi Amir "would return from these campaigns with many thousands of captives, male and female" pp. 41-42 (1992) Jayyusi and Marin "The Political History of al-Andalus" in The Legacy of Muslim Spain
The Sanhaja groups (derived from the Tuareg/Songhai populations) had taken over Cordoba and apparently many of the Hispano Muslims resented it. Anger had grown against these Berbers in their Cordoban capital called Madinat al- Zahra, and it came to the point where they had to be armed to be safe. Much of this anger came from the upper classes who actually may have been quite different from the plebeians who are given the derogatory names such as "sawad". In any case " it is difficult to ascertain whether it was all the Cordobans, both the mob and the nobility that who hated the Berbers, as the sources are vague as to who exactly were the initiators of this animosity: 'they say hatred of the Berbers was made known'". p. 67 The Fall of the Caliphate
According to historian Peter C. Scales sometime in the 11th century "The fitna in Cordoba between the people and the Berbers flared up... The mob was given free reign to attack the Berber tribes. It was presumably in this pogrom that Abd Al Malik al Muzaffar's old teacher Ahmad bin Abda'l Azziz bin Faraj Ibn al-Hubab, a grammarian had died. Ibn Bashkuwal tells us that he was a Berber of the Masmuda tribe. It would seem that the murder of North Africans encouraged by Muhammed al-Mahdi's request to be brought Berber heads was not restricted to the capital." p 70
Also Ibn abdal Jabbar "a Hispano Muslim ordered any who had a similar appearance to a Berber to be killed.” p. 74
"There are certainly 2 instances documented of innocent Maghrebis being caught up in the racial animousity where vented by the local populations in the south of al-Andalus. In Elvira a pilgrim from Ceuta, a certain Khalaf b. Ali b. Nasir b. Mansur al Balawi al Sabti, ..." p. 70
The name Balawi is always a reference to the Baliyy or Baliyyun of Idrisi tribe of the Himyarites occupying Hadramaut and Africa, so this person could have been either Arabian or Berber.
"Another Khalaf (b.Masud al Jarawi) a faqir from Melilla was murdered by the people of Malaga 'during the Andalusi revolt against the Berbers at the time of the al-Mahdi's uprising.'" Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba
Thus a man of the Jarawa tribe (i.e. Garawan or Wangara) who were "a huge portion" of the Zanata Berbers in that period was killed. The Daza inhabitants of Fezzan and Germa are largely descended from Garawan and still call themselves Garan or Goran.
At one point Berbers were concentrated in a segregated section of Cordoba. “The Berbers had been quartered in the palace of al-Zahra but were in fear of their lives if they went out alone.” p. 73 After having to flee this place, "The Berbers returned to al-Zahra to evacuate their families and belongings…".(p. 77) For “Muhammed (al-mahdi)solemnly swore to never rest until he had rid himself of all the Berbers. " p. 77 The Fall of the Caliphate of Cordoba
After these Almoravid Berbers got back in power under a Sulayman al Musta'in Andalusia was distributed to various Berber tribes. The Sanhaja (Tuareg/Songhai) received Elvira (Grenada), the Maghrawa branch of the Zanata received areas north of Cordoba, the Banu Yafran/Ifren or (Ifuren Tuareg tribe) received Jaen. Other Zenata received other fiefs.
Another example of white Muslim racial insults against the Berbers is evidenced in the story of Al Ja'far or Gafar a poet who fell in love with the same woman the son of the Almohad ruler had a thing for.
Abu Ga'far was already involved in a conspiracy against the Berbers and their leaders which at that time were Abd'Al-Mumin a Zanata member of the mostly Masmuda Almohades dynasty and his son.
He had been working for Abd-al Mumin but the last straw was when he mockingly insulted Abdal-Mumin's son saying "What do you see in that black fellow? If you wish, I could buy you ten better ones in the slave market."
"Hearing that he was to be imprisoned the poet fled to Malaga" where he was not long afterwards executed.
Some people just can't be trusted.
The idea that Berbers were of obviously different appearance from the Spaniards including their Spanish Muslim countrymen is born out by the documents.
All very interesting. But you imply here that Berber is synomous with Black. I do not bleieve that is true.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ LOL Typical Lyinass strawman post which has NOTHING to do with what Dana is talking about!
More to the point. Modern day Spaniards portraying the Moors who once occupied them.
Interesting findings by the way, Dana. There's no way getting around it. The Moors looked different from the native Spaniards as well as Syrians and Iraqis. What could it be?... Oh yeah, they're black.
Oh boy here we go again.
Here are more folks dressing as Moors. Oops they ain't Black!
quote:Originally posted by malcontent7: All very interesting. But you imply here that Berber is synonymous with Black. I do not believe that is true.
'Berber' itself is not synonymous with black because it is a language group spoken by peoples of many complexions including 'white' peoples; however, that does no change the FACT that Moor is synonymous with black as that was its very meaning!
We've been through this many times before Malcontent but you are too stubborn and stupid to accept it.
quote: Oh boy here we go again.
Yes, here we go with some valid evidence, and more of your b.s.
quote:Here are more folks dressing as Moors. Oops they ain't Black!
And are you sure these were actually Moors depicted or Saracens? You see during Moorish times, there were fair-skinned Saracens from Syria that were present in Europe as well. And although I can't find it at the moment, the same Spanish parade whose people portrayed Moors in black-face also portrayed Saracens by simply wearing turbans and robes. Again Moor means black. I know how much this irks you, but too bad.
quote:This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.
Okay. And those people he tramples are slightly darker in complexion. And?
quote:And if you want to get silly. Here are the Black Moors right here.
LOL The only one getting silly is YOU since you have no proper defense to Spaniards donning black-face to portray Moors! Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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LOL Funny how the Malcontent idiot would compare his picture of black faced monsters above with black faced men below who don Saharan Berber outfits complete with cross bandoliers and armed with spears.
This bears a striking resemblance to the outfit and arms of these Tuareg warriors below.
Though I can't help but to think your comparison of black men to black monsters is a Freudian slip on your part. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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All very interesting. But you imply here that Berber is synomous with Black. I do not bleieve that is true.
Why put words in my mouth. Why would Berber be a name synonymous with Black when Berber was a name for an ethnic group - unlike today in which it is used for a dialect and people who speak it.
of course Berbers were black though especially the ones that Muslim and Mozarabic Andalusians saw. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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[QUOTE][qb]This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.
Where does it say Santiago is trampling Moors? Just wondering, because they look like Andalusian Muslims to me. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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A principios del siglo XVIII apareció en el arte la "pintura de castas", imágenes plásticas que representan a la gente de acuerdo a una clasificación racial de las personas mezcladas. Estas pinturas son muy interesantes porque reflejan la vida de la sociedad novohispana del siglo XVIII. Muestran las actividades a las que se dedicaban, la ropa que usaban y el lugar donde vivían.
A las personas que racialmente fueron el producto de mezclas de distintas etnias se les denominó "castas". Este heterogéneo grupo tuvo el mismo problema social que los mestizos. Si no se les podía ubicar claramente dentro de algún grupo racial, eran negados y discriminados por unos y otros. Las castas muestran la complicada estructura social que se formó en la Nueva España.
Algunas de ellas son:
De español con india - mestizo De mestizo con india - coyote De negro con española - mulato De mulato con española- morisco De español con morisca - albino De español con albina - negro-torna-atrás ...
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'Berber' itself is not synonymous with black because it is a language group spoken by peoples of many complexions including 'white' peoples; however, that does no change the FACT that Moor is synonymous with black as that was its very meaning!
We've been through this many times before Malcontent but you are too stubborn and stupid to accept it.
No, The Spanish called the muslim invaders Moors because they came from the area of North Africa called Mauretania. The Berber tribe directly across from Spain had been called Mauri ever since Roman times. The Spanish came to call all the muslim invaders Moros, and still call people from Morocco and North Africa Moros.
Also most Berber tribes are located near the coastal areas of North Africa which saw various migration down throught history from Europeans entering during the Ice Age, Megalithic builders, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans,Byzantines, Germanic Vandals and Arabs etc. To believe they would have somehow preserved a Black phenotype if they ever had one is ludicrous.
Here is a depiction from Mideaval Spain
As you can see the Moors were a mixed bunch with Blacks being among the minority. Can you produce a depiction from midieval Spain that proves the contrary? I don't think you can.
And to Dana Marnich, I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc. You can't becuase the Blacks that came to Spain were in the service Muslims, stripped of their culture and thoroughly islamicized. They adopted Arab langauge and culture. All their learning, technology and science came from the Arabs. Nothing Black African. And you know thats a fact. Thats why to claim that Blacks supposedly brought civilization to Europe or whatever rings empty!
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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De español con india - mestizo De mestizo con india - coyote De negro con española - mulato De mulato con española- morisco De español con morisca - albino De español con albina - negro-torna-atrás
A morisco was a Moor who had supposedly converted to Christianity. You will notice that in their racial scheme, the spaniards liken a morisco to a quadroon, which mean failry light skinned probably Middle Eastern looking. ...
-------------------- In the vast pasture of life you're bound to step in some truth. Posts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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[QUOTE][qb]This is there here Santigo trampling the Moors.
Where does it say Santiago is trampling Moors? Just wondering, because they look like Andalusian Muslims to me.
I can't believe you would ask this question after all the similar paintings I have posted
According to Spanish legend, Saint James the Apostle appeared as a ferocious sword wielding warrior on horseback to help Christian armies in battles against the Moors during the Reconquista.
note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent Santiago Matamoros. 17th century ("Saint James the Moor-slayer"). Santiago Matamoros. 18th century ("Saint James the Moor-slayer").
"Moor" is a Eurocentric term.
I will mention now art that depicts Moors in the context of scenes which represent the Moors in conflict with Christians in Spain not blacks in places like Germany of which there were only several hundred by the 18th century most of them having nothing to do with the conquest of Iberia.
The above shows that some Spanish artists were interpreting Moors as tawny skinned not "black". In other paintings you also see blacks depicted. The people depicted in all of these items did not call themselves "Moors"
This term was being loosely by Europeans to apply to various people including tawny mullatoes, quadroons and blacks, all of these people had been living in Africa since before Christ, Muslims who they were in then at war with. And relative to paler Europeans they lumped in all "colored" people as "blacks" or "Moors" including tan colored types some of whom had substancial ancestry from Phoenicians, Greeks, Visigoths, Arabs and various mixtures with indigenous black Africans. So you can't assume they had a mainstream American point of view that "blacks" are only people with afros and big lips.
Now in 2012 somebody might like to take this term "Moor" or "Berber" and say it applies only to purely indigenous Africans.
That's fine, but historically the Europeans who came up with these terms applied these terms loosely and the above paintings are an example.
google "Santiago Matamoros" or "Saint James the Moor-slayer". These are the titles of many paintings and sculptures. Moor is in the title. Why is Moor in the title? You would need to have some alternate explanation to that the reason Moor is in the title other than the percepetion of the artist is that people represented being slain by Saint James were Moors.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by malibudusul: The bloody Battle of El Puig, during the conquest of Valencia. Behind the king who pierces with his spear the armor and breast of a Moor, there is Saint George fighting and killing another Muslim with the sword. http://www.studiolum.com/wang/jaume/jaume-i-9.jpg
posted
^ There is obviously a confusion some folks have between Moors and Muslims. Not every Muslim in the Medieval Islamic world was a Moor and not all Moors were Muslims, though the vast majority who were in Europe at that time were.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Dates from the 1400's The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal “Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ There is obviously a confusion some folks have between Moors and Muslims. Not every Muslim in the Medieval Islamic world was a Moor and not all Moors were Muslims, though the vast majority who were in Europe at that time were.
Coat of arms of Alcanadre. La Rioja, Spain. Depicting slayed heads of the Moors
this painting is called Santiago Matamoros (Saint james the Moorslayer)
Someone could say that the painters of paintings like this have incorrectly suggested that the people being slain are Moors and that people that look like that are not Moors.
People who appear to have some non-African ancestry like the slain people in the painting look had lived in Africa for many hundreds of years before the invasion of Iberia.
Since "Moor" throughout the centuries, a word first applied by Europeans has been applied to various including people like those in this painting and "black" is open to interpretation calling them Moors or not is up to whatever a person feels like.
Same thing with "black". Somebody might say that term is only for Africans. Others might say a dark Indian person is black. Since "black" is not a precise term it is up to whatever a person feels like and Europeans historically have applied the term Moor to a variety of ethnic combinations.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Dates from the 1400's The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal “Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
quote:I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc
A non Islamic influence that was felt was that of the magician and may have influence European witch craft. book a history of secret sociaties by arkon darul.the earliest mentions of the witches sabbats;which were also known as "synagogues" came in the eleventh century,and seem to show the assimilation of the diana cult with another:
one which involves the worship of a "black man". then we have mentions of brewing of potions,rubbing on oinyments,meetings and spells at cross-roads,renouncing christianity and the use of the wax image in a death-spell. by the fifteenth century,there was a remarkable similarity between witch meeting reported or confessed to,in many countries,some without much contact with one another. reference will be made later to the "sabbat" rituals reported from sweden,spain,scotland and france.
from the 7th~15th centuries the moors were ruling spain and north africa. cultral penetration from their universities into western europe was enormous; while their transltions of greek and other philosophical books posed a challenge which the theologians of the west were hard to meet during this very same period, a strange cult had arisen in morocco,crossed the strits into andaluisa, and wasactively-if secretly-followed in the centres of arab civilization with cosmopolitan populations. the latter consisted of arabized jews,christians scholors and wandering ascetics who travelled from one country to another in search of knowlage. the cult was called by the arab authorities{who tried to put it down} "the double horned", and it seemed to be connected moon-worship. it was certainly associated with magic, and its similarities to what were later reported as witch practises are very close.
the devotees of this cult met on thursday nights,were initiated by having a wound inflicted somewhere on their bodies{which left a smallscar},and beleived that they could raise magical power by dancing in or around a circle.
some of them claim that they at times carried out religious services which involved the saying of the moslem prayers backwards,and invoking el aswad(the black man)to help them. they served their priests, whom they saw only rarely, says the historian ibn jafar,after taking an oath of fealty of body and soul,they were drawn from all sections of the community, were of both sexes, and used ritual knives in the scarring ceremony. these knives were known as al-dhamme' or bloodletters. here is a typical initiation ceremony of the horned ones:we gathered by night, where two paths met and crossed; and he who had been so instructed bore with him a cock, which was to be sacrificed as the emblem of the new day. each carried a staff with two horns in brass upon the head; which is symbolical of the goat which is ridden,the sign of power and irresistiblity. "this meeting which is called the zabbat,the forceful or powerful one; and the circle of companions are the kafan(arabic for winding sheet).
we were thus termed, because each man wears over his naked flesh during the ritual only the white plain sheet in which he will be buried. "i was given the sanctity that night, and to join with the band of the elect who would spread joy throughout the world. those of us who are companions of the rabbna(our lord) examplified by the blacksmith".
quote:Brada this thread is about Al-Andulus not convert employees of the Christians
Errr,,these were not converts,this was done by Iberian artist in 1400's Spain aka Iberia and they were not employees of Christians. goto Golden age Of The Moors. BTW look how you zero in on the Moor on his knees before the anti-Christ but not the one sitting on his throne wearing a crown..ah tell gotta keep an eye on ya all the time.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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As you can see the Moors were a mixed bunch with Blacks being among the minority. Can you produce a depiction from midieval Spain that proves the contrary? I don't think you can.
And to Dana Marnich, I challenge you to show me some remnant of a Black African cultural element or tradtion in Spain, or some Black African loan words in Spain from say Wolof or Bambara etc. You can't becuase the Blacks that came to Spain were in the service Muslims, stripped of their culture and thoroughly islamicized. They adopted Arab langauge and culture. All their learning, technology and science came from the Arabs. Nothing Black African. And you know thats a fact. Thats why to claim that Blacks supposedly brought civilization to Europe or whatever rings empty!
You people are really a trip. lol!. What I know is that you are definitely as block headed as your Neanderdull brethren. That's what I know. Are you telling me Berbers did not give anything to Moorish Spain.
Here is one thing of many things for you to learn about the black people called Berbers. The word for horsmanship in Spain "Jinete" is derived from the Zenetes or Zanata Berbers i.e. Zaghawa or Azuwagha horsemen.
"Originally, it meant a type of light cavalryman, proficient at skirmishing and rapid maneuver."
They also brought the jousting and javelins into Iberia, probably much like what was happening in the region of Bornu among Zaghawa related peoples there.
BTW - The sholarly i.e. non-Euronut sources on the Cantigas say they depict Muslims not necessarily Berbers and Arabs. in fact it is recognized they could be depicting people from anywhere in the Middle East.
So your Euronut site explanation is not going to work here.
The word Moor was a synonym for Negro among Mozarabs and I am just explaining why.
Hydraulics of course is another wonderful introduction of the Africans whose ancestors were the "pitch black" Garamantes, Gamphasantes Ghadmusii, Tidamensii and other peoples who possessed complex systems of irrigation and hydraulics as early as 4000 years ago.
A foggara of Gourara a town of Central Algeria, where live Zanata berbers. The technology for Afro Berber irrigation practices dates back thousands of years.
You are pitiful. Why are you so jealous of these Africans.
Zanata men or Berbers of Gourara in the region of Central Algeria
They are descendants of the Ibadites and Kharijites pushed southwards by later Arab invaders from northern parts of eastern Maghreb.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by melchior7: [qb] Then don't confuse Morisco with Moors. Morisco means Moor-like. Probably due to their Muslim heritage.
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quote:Brada this thread is about Al-Andulus not convert employees of the Christians
Errr,,these were not converts,this was done by Iberian artist in 1400's Spain aka Iberia and they were not employees of Christians. goto Golden age Of The Moors. BTW look how you zero in on the Moor on his knees before the anti-Christ but not the one sitting on his throne wearing a crown..ah tell gotta keep an eye on ya all the time.
what is the page number in Golden Age of the Moors this appears. I suspect it is not made by a Mulsim artist or Iberian. What do you mean "on his knees before the anti-Christ?" Who is the man kneeling before and why is he kneeling and what is the primary source of this illustration?
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quote:what is the page number in Golden Age of the Moors this appears. I suspect it is not made by a Mulsim artist or Iberian. What do you mean "on his knees before the anti-Christ?" Who is the man kneeling before and why is he kneeling and what is the primary source of this illustration?
posted
Thanks, According to the book I was wrong, these were not convert employees. Who would have guessed it's a Spanish propaganda piece depicting the Moors bowing to a (white!) anti-christ. I looked at the book, the Brunson/Rashidi chapter had trouble figuring out where in the notes to the chapter there was the reference for the source of the ilustration
Also on page 37 immediately preceeding those illustrations is this statement:
Brunson, Rashidi Golden Age of The Moor, ed. Ivan Vansertima
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quote:Also on page 37 immediately preceeding those illustrations is this statement: Brunson, Rashidi Golden Age of The Moor, ed. Ivan Vansertima
We already knew that coastal north Africans became diverse, my problem with you and others is for trying to diminished/minimized the role of those Africans with broader features and darker skin we know from genetics that by their fathers they are primarily Africans and by their mother Eurasians,see the above comments by Claudian And not for nothing In the ancient sample of the Iberian Peninsula highlights the presence of 50% of sub-Saharan lines. These lines may have been introduced during the Solutrean, the Mesolithic or Neolithic.
posted
You realize how dumb you sound demanding that folks don't post stuff from later Centuries after the Moors were expelled(15th Century) yet post stuff from later periods.
I mean you realize this makes your argument bunk right.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Santiago Matamoros. 17th century Santiago Matamoros. 18th century [/QB]
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You realize how dumb you sound demanding that folks don't post stuff from later Centuries after the Moors were expelled(15th Century) yet post stuff from later periods.
I mean you realize this makes your argument bunk right.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness:
note dates, try not to post something from a later period like Orientalists of the 19th/20th cent. The Santiagos are 17th and 18c so I didn't violate
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Santiago Matamoros. 17th century Santiago Matamoros. 18th century
I specified don't post 19th cent/20th century orientalists.
I could go dig up the much older 13th c Alphonso X stuff depicting Moorish Almohad Berbers but we've already done many extensive threads on this
posted
Brada. on page 3 right after pg 2 you put up Van Sertima discusses dana's view that the Moors were black and contrasts it with Wayne Chandler's chapter who believes they were quite mixed as did Brunson/Rashidi. The Golden Age of the Moor has different views coming from different authors of different chapters. I also heard Wayne dumped dana and she was mad. It might just be a rumor
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posted
Lioness don't go personal on this stuff even in rumor,that ain't cool!!
quote:Brada. on page 3 right after pg 2 you put up Van Sertima discusses dana's view that the Moors were black and contrasts it with Wayne Chandler's chapter who believes they were quite mixed as did Brunson/Rashidi. The Golden Age of the Moor has different views coming from different authors of different chapters. I also heard Wayne dumped dana and she was mad. It might just be a rumor
In any case genetics as well as records clearly shows that there was diversity on both sides of the straits and broad featured Africans figured prominently on either side going back centuries before the Islamic era,they were not auxiliary or second class in their own story,the point of this thread is all hell broke loose when Iburo and Mesopotamian Muslims tried to do just that,
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Dates from the 1400's The term Moor predates Muslims, and it has always meant black we covered this time and again but Lioness like to keep rehashing old arguments and yes ,Djehuti every Black was a Moor but all Moors weren't Blacks especially by late medieval times, St Maurice for instance was a Moor but he was non Muslim and did not hail from North West Africa and below the Roman writer Martial inter change Moor with Ethiopians,so too did Juvenal “Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
Your depiction of Blacks in hooded garments looks very interesting. But is propaganda and likely racist showing that “Blacks” are supporters of the antichrist. This does not tell what most of the Moors in Spain looked like. The Cantigas portrayed scenes from everyday life.
Again they were initially called Moros in Spain because of where they came from ( Mauretania) not because of what they looked like. Most the Berbers who crossed over into Spain were light skinned. Tarik himself was described as having red hair and an early depiction shows him to be simply a tawny Berber.
Other Europeans may have associated the word Moor for Black but they really didn’t have the concept of race as we do today. Moor just referred to swarthy people coming from the other side of the Mediterranean. When the Spanish invented the term Negro, the English and others followed suit and a clear racial distinction was made..
You may be familiar with the color ranking of the Roman Manilius. It shows that among dark peoples the mauritanians were the lighest.
In Manilius' order swarthy complexions from the most dark to the least dark are - Aethiopes - India - Aegyptia - Afrorum - Mauretania
This would seem to be in accordance with the majority of light brown folk we see in North Africa today.
Most Blacks brought to Spain came with the Almoravids. They were not North Africans but recruited form Senegal and Mali. It’s documented.
“Yusuf ibn Tashfin , second Almoravid leader and man destined to conquer Andalus, reorganised these armies. Original Almoravid forces had been a tribal confederation, but yusuf changed the command structure and created a personal force of black slaves and foreigners. His bodyguard consisted of 500 non-Berber horsemen, including Arabs, Turks and Europeans, supported by a further 2,000 black African cavalry. Christian mercenaries as well as converted Spanish prisoners continued to fight for the Almoravids and their successors both in Andalus and North Africa throughout the late 11th and 12th centuries. Cavalry also became more important than camel-mounted troops, particularly when operating in Andalus. There the high number of black Africans in Almoravid armies, many recruited from Senegal on the southern frontier of the empire, had a terrifying effect on Christian morale- as did the use of massed drums, unusual forms of bow, enormously long leather shields, bamboo spears and other unfamiliar weapons. A continuing use of large number camels also unsettled the Spaniards’ horses, in fact, such animals had been known in southern Andalus since at least the 10th century.” http://www.oocities.org/ihusselbee/crusader/moors2.htmPosts: 682 | From: East Coast | Registered: May 2011
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