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MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ANCIENT EGYPTIANS HAIR STYLES:
Here 3 different representation of the same person: Hery-Ra (Herire, Herira) first known physicians of Ancient Egypt (and thus the world). He bore the title "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" among others. Here's from the 3rd Dynasty.
Here's 3 version of Hery-Ra:
Close up of third version of Hesire:
The first on the left, seems to sport a short wig, the second image of him a long wig and the last image on the right, no wig at all.
Like all African people around the world nowadays, Ancient Kemites used many types of style for their hair from bald to extension, natural, wig, braided, mix of those, etc. One of the reason Egyptians used so much wig and hair extensions was to prevent infections with lice which was widespread in that period. Also to protect against the sun and for ceremonial/traditional reasons.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Prevention of Lice and parasitic infections
Maybe I should have post this post and link at the start of this thread. Braids and hair extensions is something that was and still is popular across African populations around the world (diaspora and continental). Ancient Egyptians of all social groups used it for many reasons: daily use, be fashionable, ceremonially (tradition), protect from the sun and even, probably mainly, for medical reason:
The removal of the natural hair and subsequent adoption of wigs was also a hygienic measure and greatly reduced the health risks associated with parasitic infestation, particularly head lice (Pediculus humanus capitis).
Indeed, the Greek historian Herodotus stated that “Egyptian priests shave their bodies all over every other day to guard against the presence of lice , or anything else equally unpleasant, while they are about their religious duties.” The hair used in the construction of wigs and hair extensions was human, and was either an individual’s own hair or had been traded for, hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun. Once the required amounts of hair had been collected, it would be sorted into lengths and any tangles removed with fine-toothed combs which also removed any lice eggs, traces of which can still sometimes be found between their teeth. Using an impressive array of hairdressing tools, the wigmakers would then work the prepared lengths of hair into an assortment of braids, plaits or curls depending upon the style required, with each piece coated in a warmed beeswax and resin fixative mixture which would harden when cooled. Since the melting point of beeswax is 140°–145°F, this method of securing the hair would have been effective even in Egypt’s extreme climate.
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^ Mind you, the shaving of the body is a common practice in many African cultures especially Nilotic cultures in east Africa. Body hair was disdained for aesthetic purposes as well as perhaps for hygiene purpose (body lice). Though body shaving was done much more frequently by the priesthood for the purpose of ritual purity which is why they shave themselves every other day.
You are absolutely correct about the importance of wigs in African cultures both for aesthetics as well as ritual purposes and symbols of status. This heavy use of wigs especially artificial wigs made from plant fibers is something commonly found in West Africa much more than East Africa which is why I think the tradition was brought into Egypt from ancestors in the western desert.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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It's a shame that there are not many studies put out on Egyptian wigs. Practically the only expert we know of on this topic is Dr. Joanne Fletcher who still has some Eurocentric bias. The only scholar I know that goes into the African nature and style of Egyptian wigs is Diop, and it was through his writings that I learned of such wig traditions in West Africa. Does anyone else know of the similarities or correlations between Egyptian wigs and those of other Africans??
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^ Probably because wigs usually cover the ears whereas a natural afro grows around the ears. Of course the wig could be styled in such a way as to expose the ears.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Probably because wigs usually cover the ears whereas a natural afro grows around the ears. Of course the wig could be styled in such a way as to expose the ears.
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: A Walk Through the Alleys of Ancient Egypt By Abeer El-Shahawy, Farid S. Atiya
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Probably because wigs usually cover the ears whereas a natural afro grows around the ears. Of course the wig could be styled in such a way as to expose the ears.
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: A Walk Through the Alleys of Ancient Egypt By Abeer El-Shahawy, Farid S. Atiya
I guess everything in this world is subjective (or in need of intellectual fairness). I guess somehow I could finger point any artistic depiction of natural hair as being a wig. The third representation due to it's differences with other representations, due to its form, texture and appearance in general looks like natural hair. Ancient Egyptians often make symbolic (traditional) representation of things. So things that look different are different things not a different representation of the same thing. Here we see 3 different Ancient Egyptians hair styles. The third one looks like natural hair.
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You said # 3 was natural hair but you didn't really know. I am not sure myself but the above book says all three were wigs. Some wigs, as we know look just like natural hair.
here is #2 You can't tell by looking if it is a wig or is not a wig because natural hair can be styled like this. Therefore even if it is a wig I wouldn't say "it looks like a wig"
_________________________________________________________ Is this a wig? I don't know. If it was a wig you couldn't wear other wigs because it is too big and puffy for them to rest on it. This is not Hesire though.
The interesting thing with Hesire is that he had three such different looking wigs, but the book says that he as at different ages in each panel.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate, here is a method to reduce photo size so you can post it and it's not too big for readability in the forum. (or you can enlage) You may know it already:
1) select photo
2) IN View: Zoom Out or Zoom in
3) screen capture by
in Mac- Control Shift 4
In PC (Windows 7), snip tool (scissors)
-drag a rectangle
-when finished a picture has been taken and a file icon has appeared on the desktop
4) go to an image host and upload the image from browse desktop, then copy and paste html code into forum (sometimes [IMG] code is already made so you can skip [ Image ] in forum and put the URL code directly into the forum post box
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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AmunRa, leave the lyinass twit alone! Just say yes it's a wig so she'll stop bitching. At the end of the day it doesn't matter because all these wigs still portray AFRICAN hair. Even if the afro is a wig, it's still an Afro!
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Even if this is a wig, why would the Egyptians wear an afro wig? My first thought is that therefore Hesire who lived in the Third Dynasty might be negro
^^^^ However he doesn't look very Negro here. The lips are small. the mouth opening is not wide, he has no prognathis his nose has a slight outer curve, his forehead doesn't receed much. Either he was not African, part African or an African of a type very unlike most Africans, particulary West Africans. Without question his features are more European/Middel Eastern looking than the vast majority of Africans. That doesn't mean he is European/Middle Eastern but it makes you wonder.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ANCIENT EGYPTIANS HAIR STYLES:
Here 3 different representation of the same person: Hery-Ra (Herire, Herira) first known physicians of Ancient Egypt (and thus the world). He bore the title "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" among others. Here's from the 3rd Dynasty.
Here's 3 version of Hery-Ra:
Close up of third version of Hesire:
The first on the left, seems to sport a short wig, the second image of him a long wig and the last image on the right, no wig at all.
Like all African people around the world nowadays, Ancient Kemites used many types of style for their hair from bald to extension, natural, wig, braided, mix of those, etc. One of the reason Egyptians used so much wig and hair extensions was to prevent infections with lice which was widespread in that period. Also to protect against the sun and for ceremonial/traditional reasons.
Nice thread.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Ah when will the madness and stupidity ever end??!
Ignoring the white-wacko nubian-wannabe...
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Even if this is a wig, why would the Egyptians wear an afro wig? My first thought is that therefore Hesire who lived in the Third Dynasty might be negro
LMAO Perhaps it never occurred to you that the Egyptians wore afro wigs because such wigs represented their own natural hair-- Afros--since the Egyptians were Africans! And enough of the "negro" crap!
quote:
^^^^ However he doesn't look very Negro here. The lips are small. the mouth opening is not wide, he has no prognathis his nose has a slight outer curve, his forehead doesn't receed much. Either he was not African, part African or an African of a type very unlike most Africans, particulary West Africans. Without question his features are more European/Middel Eastern looking than the vast majority of Africans. That doesn't mean he is European/Middle Eastern but it makes you wonder.
The only thing we wonder is how DUMB you really are or how stupid you expect us to be?! We debated the whole issue of Hesi-Ra before as well as the whole bankrupt term of "true negro"! There are West Africans who look like him as well as Africans farther south of the Great Lakes. How long are you going to repeat this b.s. lyinass b|tch?? Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lyinass seems to be 'confused' as to why an ancient Egyptian man would wear an afro wig. Of course white hairy nubian-wannabe is totally ignoring this fact.
Meanwhile it is clear as day to everyone else with intelligence let alone common sense, why Egyptians would wear such wigs.
Below is some video footage taken in the Cairo Museum showing a collection of afro wigs worn by the ancient Egyptian Amun priesthood:
As somebody noted, the afro wigs having braids in the bottom are strikingly similar to the hairstyle worn by Beja and other east African nomads.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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As most of you have already figured out, this entire board consists of ONE sick degenerate that has created ficticious names to talk to itself in. Just a few of these names are CLYDE WINTERS, MIKE111 and THE LIONESS. however ALL of the posters on this site EXCEPT for MYSELF are this one sick degenerate! There is NOONE on this site that can be trusted but me. The only links on this site that can be trusted are the ones that I provide for you! Here is a link that you can use as a resource and can be trusted! http://www.raceandhistory.com/
When you have finished reading this post check out this site to learn the truth about history and ALL civilzations. Do NOT be fooled by the real history link that the filthy monkey created using the race and history link as a guide. This is the ONLY site that can be trusted http://www.raceandhistory.com/
Isnt it funny how this one little link destroys all of the charts, graphs and pics that the filthy monkey lies to us with? You now understand why the filthy monkey continues to spam the board with photos of modern day populations that had absolutely NOTHING to do with ancient Egypt
The next time one of these degenerates tries to tell you a lie just refer the moonkey to the latest DNA analysis on the ancient Egyptians, and then tell the faggot to crawl back in its cave!
The pig just keeps showing us why these crackers should not exist! They have genetically recessive genes and ion 50 years they will be the minority in BRITAIN!! THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT LIKE THE UNATURAL ABOMINATIONS THAT THEY ARE!
Look at the low IQ monkey with its charts and pictures LOL tHE dna analysis does not matter to this monkey, because it lives in a world of fantasy! lol
Folks, the monkey performs at my commend. I am this monkeys master!But then again all one needs to do is take a cursury look at this monkeys youtube page to understand the tenuous grip on reality that this monkey has! LOL http://www.youtube.com/user/phoenician7
When the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians what does a low IQ monkey do???
The low IQ monkey shows pictures and charts and munbles on and on about haplogroups while completely ignoring what the DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians actually says LOL
the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. Thats what the DNA says, thats what the science says. This monkey in all of its fake names is very pathetic isnt it?
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You know you have attracted quite a few that are watching this train wreck and wondering what the end game is here. I have tried to convince more than a few that you have no end game however. That you are simply one of lifes losers that can only feel empowered by causing conflict.
People can see that you must comprehend that DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians shows them to be bantu people, and it is many of your own kind that you are embarrassing quite frankly. The neanderthal genome project has murdered you and although you are a low IQ incompetant stringy hairted monkey, it is something that even YOU must understand!
So tell the folks what your purposee is monkey! There are many that would like to know, because as of now you are just viewed as a clown
Posts: 3642 | Registered: Apr 2012
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"United States OR America"...gotta change that. I'm hypothesizing that from the complexity of posting pics, use of a phone will only accumulate frustration lol. Here goes nothin'...
The diversity of "sub-saharan" Africans is not just in DNA trees, but also in their facial and hair characteristics, as presented by Djehuti's Afar/Egyptian presentation. Ramses II (the blonde guy) died in old age and simply attained gray hair by then, also the reason for the lack of oral prognathism/big ole lips by way of teeth deterioration, although he was depicted in earlier life as black-haired and thick-lipped...I'm pic-post-challenged at the moment, so look up his tomb art and Abu Simbel sculptures.
And Vansertimavindicated, why so angry?...Yes, people do ignore, and sometimes distort, Africa's history, but top scholars have concluded the "Nilo-Saharan" origins of the Badarian/Neqada/A-Group cultural complex and with it, IMMENSE contributions by interior African ethnics. By the way, were all "monkeys" with regional alteration.
-------------------- NCB Posts: 12 | From: Louisville, Ky - USA | Registered: Jul 2012
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Djehuti: "A white woman posing as an ancient Egyptian lady complete with thick wooly haired wig! LOL"
White women giving themselves curls, braids, or the, obviously theatrical wooly wig, is no more stranger than Black women acknowledging (generally) caucasioid hair by way of weaves, extensions, chemicals, and wigs (Jerry Springer fights anyone?). We're in America, a melting pot of people and styles. That being said, I'll be DAMNED if that wig don't look just plain sad...I mean, how difficult is it to find an African American to play an African?
-------------------- NCB Posts: 12 | From: Louisville, Ky - USA | Registered: Jul 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The only thing we wonder is how DUMB you really are or how stupid you expect us to be?! We debated the whole issue of Hesi-Ra before as well as the whole bankrupt term of "true negro"! There are West Africans who look like him as well as Africans farther south of the Great Lakes. How long are you going to repeat this b.s. lyinass b|tch?? [/QB]
Straw man. I never used the term "true Negro", you added "true"
I used the word negro the equivalent word is used by the average ameican is "black". When an average American uses this term them mean a person of African descent, not an Indian person, not dark skinned Malaysian, not a dark skinned South American.
if you prefer "an African"
So are there any features that are not African? How could you tell if you are likely looking at an African? Other people in the world also have dark skin so how can you tell you are looking at an African ? How can you tell you are looking at a non-African?
^^^^ Djehuti, look at this. Does it look like an African?
NOW EXPLAIN WHY YOU SAID IT DOES OR IT DOESN'T, winks won't suffice
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^ It's not difficult at all finding a black actress to play the part, the problem is many whites either out of ignorance and/or stubbornness refuse to allow black people to portray Egyptians who they view as some alleged Caucasian ancestors! LOL]
Hence, a google search on ancient Egyptian beauty will yield overwhelmingly pictures of white women.
By the way, ignore VanSertimaConfirmed for he is nothing more than a brainless troll that incessantly spams the forum with the same sh*t.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Here 3 different representation of the same person: Hery-Ra (Herire, Herira) first known physicians of Ancient Egypt (and thus the world). He bore the title "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" among others. Here's from the 3rd Dynasty.
PREVIOUS BACKGROUND INFO ROUNDUP FOR NEW READERS[/B/ -------------------------------------------------- ------
Ancient Egyptian hair
[b]Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair studies touted by "heriditarian" race proponents actually applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
------------ "Nordic hair measurements"
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s (yes they actually go back this far), which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)
White Germans: 66.33 ___________________________________________________ ___________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics ___________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed -quote - "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun."
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- Dark haired populations routinely produce light hair. Pheomelanin is found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
In numerous studies of mummies, alleged "red" hair turns out to be affected by aging, chemical oxidation, dyeing and other processes having nothing to do with red-headed visitors, migrants, slaves or invaders. Red hair is rare worldwide, occurring mostly in Northern EUrope and even then, only within less that 9% of northern populations
"The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and probably originated through post-mortem alteration (Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure, bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney, 1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002, 2007b)."
--C. Papageorgopoulou et al. 2008. Indications of embalming in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological analysis. Journal of Archaeological Science
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The only thing we wonder is how DUMB you really are or how stupid you expect us to be?! We debated the whole issue of Hesi-Ra before as well as the whole bankrupt term of "true negro"! There are West Africans who look like him as well as Africans farther south of the Great Lakes. How long are you going to repeat this b.s. lyinass b|tch??
Straw man. I never used the term "true Negro", you added "true"
Sorry, but I inferred that from your post when you ridiculously pointed out Hesi-Ra's facial features as if they were some how unusual for "negroes".
quote:I used the word negro the equivalent word is used by the average ameican is "black". When an average American uses this term them mean a person of African descent, not an Indian person, not dark skinned Malaysian, not a dark skinned South American.
if you prefer "an African"
Yet no American or any Westerner for that matter uses the word 'negro' anymore not only because of the derrogative connatation but also because of the erroneous baggage that word carries. Of course a black person would know that but since you are not black...
quote:So are there any features that are not African?
Of course there are. Africans despite their enormous diversity don't have a claim to ALL features, especially ones that are cold adapted.
quote:How could you tell if you are likely looking at an African?
The same way anyone else can tell, by looking at the overall physical appearance as well as cultural attributes.
quote:Other people in the world also have dark skin so how can you tell you are looking at an African? How can you tell you are looking at a non-African?
I just answered above.
quote:
^^^^ Djehuti, look at this. Does it look like an African?
No. Because anyone with brains knows that is a European, specifically a Roman.
quote:NOW EXPLAIN WHY YOU SAID IT DOES OR IT DOESN'T, winks won't suffice
I don't need to give elementary explanations for the dumb.
quote:otherwise don't try to **** with me
.
LOL Sorry but I don't f*ck idiots. I only MOCK them!
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Is it me, or does the profile of the great sphinx reveal prognathism?
^^^Djehuti I just read this, what a complete hypocrite you are
lyinass productions
And exactly what is so hypocritical about this?! Are you saying full prognathism is a trait of your 'Caucasoid' kind?? LOLPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The ancient Egyptians styled their hair using a fat-based 'gel', an analysis of mummies has found. The researchers behind the study say that the Egyptians used the product to ensure that their style stayed in place in both life and death.
Natalie McCreesh, an archaeological scientist from the KNH Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the University of Manchester, UK, and her colleagues studied hair samples taken from 18 mummies. The oldest is around 3,500 years old, but most were excavated from a cemetery in the Dakhleh Oasis in the Western Desert, and date from Greco-Roman times, around 2,300 years ago.
They include males and females ranging in age from 4 to 58 years old. Some were artificially mummified, whereas others were preserved naturally by the dry sand in which they were buried.
Microscopy using light and electrons revealed that nine of the mummies had hair coated in a mysterious fat-like substance. The researchers used gas chromatography–mass spectrometry to separate out the different molecules in the samples, and found that the coating contained biological long-chain fatty acids including palmitic acid and stearic acid. The results are published in the Journal of Archaeological Science1.
McCreesh thinks that the fatty coating is a styling product that was used to set hair in place. It was found on both natural and artificial mummies, so she believes that it was a beauty product during life as well as a key part of the mummification process.
The resins and embalming materials used to prepare the artificially mummified bodies were not found in the hair samples, suggesting that the hair was protected during embalming and then styled separately.
"Maybe they paid special attention to the hair because they realized that it didn't degrade as much as the rest of the body," says McCreesh. The product was found on both male and female mummies, showing that both sexes cared about their eternal hairdo. High-status hairstyles
John Taylor, head of the Egyptian mummy collection at the British Museum in London, describes the idea as feasible. "Hair was a status symbol," he says — elaborate styles signified high standing.
Egyptian texts and art contain no mention of hair products, he says, although ancient Egyptians are known to have used scented oils and lotions on their bodies.
"The best clue comes from Egyptian wigs," says Taylor. "The hair is often coated with beeswax." Such wigs, which have been found in Egyptian tombs, would have been expensive and probably restricted to the nobility, says McCreesh. "The majority of the mummies I've looked at have their own hair," she says.
The Egyptians might have also used beeswax on their own hair. The wax contains fatty acids such as palmitic acid, although McCreesh says that her results so far don't show any evidence of beeswax. "It was a fat, but we can't tell you what type of fat," she says.
She points out that beeswax would be difficult to wash out of hair, compared to, say, animal fat. She now plans to analyse the samples further, to try to pin down the hair-gel recipe.
The mummies' hairstyles varied, both long and short, with curls particularly popular; metal implements resembling curling tongs have been found in several tombs. Once the hair was styled, the fatty gunge would have held the individuals' curls in place.
"You can almost imagine them when they were alive," says McCreesh, "tending their hair and putting their curls in."Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I notice people in many African cultures use animal fat and butter on their hair like hair gel.
Which African cultures, beside Kemites and Afar/Ethiopians, use animal fat/butter on their hair like gel?
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Dark skin is one trait amoung many. It is more superficial and less structural than some phenotypic traits. To group people biologically by dark skin is old school racial taxonomy. Anthropologists no longer divide people of the world by skin color, people are now categorized by geographic origin and genetic affinity. Austrailoids are at a further genetic distance from Africans than they are from Europeans. They also have brow ridges closer to Europeans than to Africans. In other words Austrailan aboriginees are no more a part of African diversity than are Europeans or Amerindians. Blond hair is not uncommon in Austrailan aboriginees. However it is extremely uncommon in Africans who are not albino Africans Straight Blond or Straight Red hair does not exist at all in Africans. And in regard to straight hair in Africans in general, the is no peer reviewed study whose topic is that straight hair in humans evolved in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
How could there be an "original" "Australoid" type that migrated from Africa? They would not be "Australoid" until they reached Australia or nearby. [/QB]
Yes, as per Austrailians, they left Africa over 50 kya and have had ample time to develop their hair type outside of Africa.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
Adult Aboriginal children may have light blond hair but it darkens and becomes dirty blond hair bt the time they become adults such as with the man above. Austrailian Aborignees are no more biologically related to Africans than are the French.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations.
As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
DNATribes African Population SNP admixture (not STR)
Here's the real SNP admixture table for Somalian and Ethiopian populations, not the STR table which included a lot of foreigners and admixed people. They didn't bother to find just one "pure" Horn African population in their STR samples contrary to their SNP samples (or lets say, their native Americans STR samples). Which doesn't make sense if you look at photos of those people, among other things or study their history. As people know by reading this forum their Horn African population don't match Ancient Egyptians mummies very well most probably because of that.
In their sampled population, Somalians are 92.1 Horn Africans.
Also those are modern populations not Ancient Egyptians or Ancient populations.
Samples are often taken from urban clinics which tend to be more cosmopolitan thus admixed with foreigners in the relatively near past. A normal phenomena for all the world's populations.
The modern Afar/Karrayyu people posted in this thread are cushitic speakers like the Oromo in the table (wiki call them "Lowland East Cushitic" speakers).
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Stop trying to dupe people with your lies.
zarahan had made a general statement about Somalians which I replied to. The topic is hair styles of the ancient Egyptians. He feels Somalians explains something about that, had a long post.
What is a lie about posting DNATribes African Population SNP admixture chart (orange)?
You simply don't undertsand the difference between that chart and the blue local region chart you posted from the same PDF(!).
The blue chart excludes the Middle East because it is showing admixture of varous different African populations is a -within Africa only chart.
Of admixture regions within Africa Somalians are 92.1 Horn Africans. In general as per in relation to the whole world they are Sub Saharan Africans 45.2% and 50.5% non_African from out of their local continental region, Middle Eastern according to DNATribes (remember th same guys who you liked for their report on the Amarna. Of the 45.2% African they are, the specific type of African that comprises that 45.2% is mainly Horn African.
Ethiopian and Somali—populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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It's true the orange table is not a STR table, I was wrong about that (I didn't re-read the doc before posting it), but the blue table is "the most detailed and representative comparison of your DNA to world population structure" according to the document and is NOT a within Africa comparison like you pretend here. Anybody can see that. Still we got 2 tables that doesn't say the same thing (because mathematically/technically the regions groupings were derived differently). I don't know or care about which table is more right or wrong. According to DNA Tribes the blue table is more accurate, more detailed and more representative.
Looking at the photo of protest crowds, as well as others, it also seems the more detailed blue SNP table is more closer to the truth, but there's no way to know that for sure since they didn't sample the whole population just "a few" chosen people. Which may happens to be people who are more admixed than most of the population, or not.
Still it has no bearing about the identity of Ancient Egyptians. Those are modern population and not the ancient population from 5000 years ago. The DNA analysis of the mummies is clear that they are closer to Southern Africans, Great Lakes Africans, Tropical West Africans and other African groups to a lower degree and in that order. Ancient population not modern, is the main preoccupation of this site.
posted
How many times must we explain to you dumb lyinass that their so-called 'central' location between other Sub-Saharans and non-Africans is because non-Africans are genetically a SUBSET of them [Horn Africans]!!
So enough of your lyinass sh*t productions, and get back to the topic of hairstyle!
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Actually it depends on what you mean by 'red' hair. If you mean the "ravishing" red or "ginger" you see among some Europeans, then NO such is not part of the usual African diversity. However, hair that has a reddish tinge does occur occasionally among some Africans. Red color in hair is due to the pigment phaelomelanin. The jet-black color in hair is due to eumelanin which is usually the predominant pigment in hair, but if phaelomelanin is also present a mixing can occur that can produce an off-black coloring that is either brownish black or deep dark brown etc. In rare cases a reddish tinge can even be observed among some individuals. Totally red hair in individuals occurs when phaelomelanin is solely predominant or the only pigment in the hair.
Blonde hair is due to a lack of melanin in general and the phenotype is believed by many experts to originally be a pedomorphic trait since it occurs most often among children in many populations including black-skinned tropically adapted ones. Even among Europeans which blondism is most common, the blonde hair of many individuals darkens with age past childhood. The same is especially true among black aboriginal populations of Australia and the Pacific, where blondism commonly occurs in childhood but then darkens with age. It's only in rare instances that individuals in these groups retain the blondness in adulthood.
Speaking of which, as Ausar has even pointed out many times before, blondism among African children is also not unusual especially among certain groups like Nubians and some other Nilotic folk. You have to be careful Zarahan about what you say in regards to African phenotypic diversity, because a lot of trolls like Anglo-Idiot love to take your claims out of context and distort what you actually mean to make you look like a nut that claims all phenotypes even European ones to be African. I know its idiotic, but some laypeople unfamiliar with such bio-anthropological facts may be gullible enough to fall for it.
quote:Dark skin is one trait among many. It is more superficial and less structural than some phenotypic traits. To group people biologically by dark skin is old school racial taxonomy. Anthropologists no longer divide people of the world by skin color, people are now categorized by geographic origin and genetic affinity. Austrailoids are at a further genetic distance from Africans than they are from Europeans. They also have brow ridges closer to Europeans than to Africans. In other words Austrailan aboriginees are no more a part of African diversity than are Europeans or Amerindians. Blond hair is not uncommon in Austrailan aboriginees. However it is extremely uncommon in Africans who are not albino Africans Straight Blond or Straight Red hair does not exist at all in Africans. And in regard to straight hair in Africans in general, the is no peer reviewed study whose topic is that straight hair in humans evolved in Africa.
LMAO B|tch please! Quit lecturing like you're knowledgeable! You didn't know sh|t about anything in biological anthropology until folks in forum told you all that info! And we told you before, it's unknown how straight hair came about but wavy hair for its part as it exists in tropically adapted (black) populations from Australia to Africa, seem to suggest that its origins may well lie in Africa at least during the time of the first OOA migration.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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It's true the orange table is not a STR table, I was wrong about that (I didn't re-read the doc before posting it), but the blue table is "the most detailed and representative comparison of your DNA to world population structure" according to the document and is NOT a within Africa comparison like you pretend here. Anybody can see that. Still we got 2 tables that doesn't say the same thing (because mathematically/technically the regions groupings were derived differently). I don't know or care about which table is more right or wrong. According to DNA Tribes the blue table is more accurate, more detailed and more representative.
Looking at the photo of protest crowds, as well as others, it also seems the more detailed blue SNP table is more closer to the truth, but there's no way to know that for sure since they didn't sample the whole population just "a few" chosen people. Which may happens to be people who are more admixed than most of the population, or not.
Still it has no bearing about the identity of Ancient Egyptians. Those are modern population and not the ancient population from 5000 years ago. The DNA analysis of the mummies is clear that they are closer to Southern Africans, Great Lakes Africans, Tropical West Africans and other African groups to a lower degree and in that order. Ancient population not modern, is the main preoccupation of this site.
you're right that the blue chart has some out of Africa world populations.
But it's mistaken to say that the blue chart is more accurate or the orange chart is more accurate. They are not necessarily contradicting one another.
The two charts are testing some of the same regions but not all and this can be confusing.
What we notice is in the orange chart they tested for Middle Eastern and came up with 54.5 %
In the blue region chart they only tested for Arabian not the whole of the Middle East and came up with 7.9% Arabian. This means they majority Middle Eastern ancestry on average but it is not mainly Arabian. The Somalis, like the Ethiopian groups, show almost no impact from the Bantu expansion. According to mtDNA studies by Holden (2005) and Richards et al. (2006), a significant proportion of the maternal lineages of Somalis consists of the M1 haplogroup, which is common among Ethiopians and North Africans, particularly Egyptians and Algerians.] M1 is believed to have originated in Asia,[ where its parent M clade represents the majority of mtDNA lineages (particularly in India). This haplogroup is also thought to possibly correlate with the Afro-Asiatic language family: "We analysed mtDNA variation in ~250 persons from Libya, Somalia, and Congo/Zambia, as representatives of the three regions of interest. Our initial results indicate a sharp cline in M1 frequencies that generally does not extend into sub-Saharan Africa. While our North and especially East African samples contained frequencies of M1 over 20%, our sub-Saharan samples consisted almost entirely of the L1 or L2 haplogroups only. In addition, there existed a significant amount of homogeneity within the M1 haplogroup. This sharp cline indicates a history of little admixture between these regions. This could imply a more recent ancestry for M1 in Africa, as older lineages are more diverse and widespread by nature, and may be an indication of a back-migration into Africa from the Middle East."
Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa
Ana M González,#1 José M Larruga,#1 Khaled K Abu-Amero,2 Yufei Shi,2 José Pestano,3 and Vicente M Cabrera1
Background
The out of Africa hypothesis has gained generalized consensus. However, many specific questions remain unsettled. To know whether the two M and N macrohaplogroups that colonized Eurasia were already present in Africa before the exit is puzzling. It has been proposed that the east African clade M1 supports a single origin of haplogroup M in Africa. To test the validity of that hypothesis, the phylogeographic analysis of 13 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and 261 partial sequences belonging to haplogroup M1 was carried out.
Results
The coalescence age of the African haplogroup M1 is younger than those for other M Asiatic clades. In contradiction to the hypothesis of an eastern Africa origin for modern human expansions out of Africa, the most ancestral M1 lineages have been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East, instead of in East Africa. The M1 geographic distribution and the relative ages of its different subclades clearly correlate with those of haplogroup U6, for which an Eurasian ancestor has been demonstrated.
Conclusion
This study provides evidence that M1, or its ancestor, had an Asiatic origin. The earliest M1 expansion into Africa occurred in northwestern instead of eastern areas; this early spread reached the Iberian Peninsula even affecting the Basques. The majority of the M1a lineages found outside and inside Africa had a more recent eastern Africa origin. Both western and eastern M1 lineages participated in the Neolithic colonization of the Sahara. The striking parallelism between subclade ages and geographic distribution of M1 and its North African U6 counterpart strongly reinforces this scenario. Finally, a relevant fraction of M1a lineages present today in the European Continent and nearby islands possibly had a Jewish instead of the commonly proposed Arab/Berber maternal ascendance.
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Only two subclades of haplogroup M, M1 and M23, are found in Africa, whereas numerous subclades are found outside Africa.Haplogroup M1 has a restricted geographic distribution in Africa, being found mainly in North Africans and East Africa at low or moderate frequencies. If M had originated in Africa around before the Out of Africa migration, it would be expected to have a more widespread distribution According to Gonzalez et al. 2007, M1 appears to have expanded relatively recently. In this study M1 had a younger coalescence age than the Asian-exclusive M lineages. The geographic distribution of M1 in Africa is predominantly North African/supra-equatorial and is largely confined to Afro-Asiatic speakers,which is inconsistent with the Sub-Saharan distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths. One of the basal lineages of M1 lineages has been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East but is abssent in East Africa. M1 is not restricted to Africa. It is relatively common in the Mediterranean, peaking in Iberia. M1 also enjoys a well-established presence in the Middle East, from the South of the Arabian Peninsula to Anatolia and from the Levant to Iran. In addition, M1 haplotypes have occasionally been observed in the Caucasus and the Trans Caucasus, and without any accompanying L lineages. M1 has also been detected in Central Asia, seemingly reaching as far as Tibet. The fact that the M1 sub-clade of macrohaplogroup M has a coalescence age which overlaps with that of haplogroup U6 (a Eurasian haplogroup whose presence in Africa is due to a back-migration from West Asia) and the distribution of U6 in Africa is also restricted to the same North African and Horn African populations as M1 supports the scenario that M1 and U6 were part of the same population expansion from Asia to Africa.[ The timing of the proposed migration of M1 and U6-carrying peoples from West Asia to Africa (between 40,000 to 45,000 ybp) is also supported by the fact that it coincides with changes in climatic conditions that reduced the desert areas of North Africa, thereby rendering the region more accessible to entry from the Levant. This climatic change also temporally overlaps with the peopling of Europe by populations bearing haplogroup U5, the European sister clade of haplogroup U6.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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you're right that the blue chart has some out of Africa world populations.
But it's mistaken to say that the blue chart is more accurate or the orange chart is more accurate. They are not necessarily contradicting one another.
I'm not the one who said that first. The 21 World Region are said to "provide the most detailed and representative comparison of your DNA to world population structure. The difference lay imo in how those regions were determined.
The orange 7 continents Admixture regions are determined by geography.
The blue 21 regions Admixture regions are derived by DNA Tribes proprietary statistical analysis (of the DNA SNPs value the have in their database).
Maybe the 7 continents admixture regions are also derived with some DNA Tribes proprietary statistical analysis too, but I don't think so.
The 21 regions Admixture regions tend to segregate more between ethnic groups since it's how they were derived (by mathematically subdividing ethnic groups by common SNP value and make a region out of them).
quote: The two charts are testing some of the same regions but not all and this can be confusing.
What we notice is in the orange chart they tested for Middle Eastern and came up with 54.5 %
In the blue region chart they only tested for Arabian not the whole of the Middle East and came up with 7.9% Arabian.
You're mistaken about that, they've tested against all the world population groups (obviously). The only difference is the 21 Region blue table subdivide Middle East into smaller units which at least contain Arabian and North Africa (also boundaries can be changed). I think the preceding Middle East continental zone included some part of the Horn of Africa.
The 21 region blue chart hits Arabian but North Africa value is nil (see "Other" line). It's because the 21 region blue table is more precise and tend to segregate regional ethnic groupings more. The Middle Eastern region in the 7 Continental orange table seems to recoup some region of Horn Africa. At least, that would be a possible explanation for it.
quote: This means they majority Middle Eastern ancestry on average but it is not mainly Arabian.
All the contrary. The Somalian people they sampled seems to be mainly native Somalian ancestry with some Arabian admixture but no North African one (or other middle eastern regions).
Again, it seems they have taken people in their sample which are more admixed as representative of the whole Somalian subgroup.
quote: The Somalis, like the Ethiopian groups, show almost no impact from the Bantu expansion.
It doesn't mean anything. You can always subdivide (or combine) people from the same ethnic family. For example, you can subdivide the common Bantu family into Zulu and Shona. Then say Zulu don't have Shona DNA.
You can subdivide Europeans into Iberian and Northwest Europeans. You can subdivide the African family into Bantu, Horn Africans, Tropical West Africans etc. All those people share common ancestry (aka common SNP values) as well as having some common ancestry of their own (after the separation into sub-groupings and being separated by geographical distance).
Here we can see that all African groups (Central Africans, Horn Africans, Southern Africans, West Africans, African Great Lakes Africans) share common ancestors and are relatively close to each other in term of genetic distance. They all share common SNP values. They are all part of a group called "Sub-Saharan Africans" by DNA Tribes.
As we can see, it's always a "game" of subdividing and regrouping ethnic groups together. All African group share common SNP value distinct from all other people on earth, at the same time some SNP value are more common in certain African sub-regions and can thus be further subdivided into smaller unit like Southern Africans or Tropical West Africans.
Same thing with the Human family in general each meeting point in the above table represent common ancestry (usually). That is common SNP value. Human are one large family with mostly the same SNP values (99%+) but some regions have some SNP value more common in their particular region so we can subdivided them into smaller, and smaller units. Even Tropical West African, I'm sure, could be subdivided into smaller units maybe Yoruba, Igbo, Ewe, etc. with SNP value more common in their region. At the extreme we can isolate you and your family (mother, father, brother, cousins) SNP values from other families.
So it's always a "game" of subdividing and regrouping ethnic groups together. The map above does the 2 things. (Meeting lines -nodes- are common ancestry, branches are subdivisions of those common ancestry).
As a side note, such genetic distance tree are very sensible to extreme values. It's one of the reasons it's really important to NOT choose admixed people in their sample while deriving such tree. To have people who truly form a native ethnic groups. Especially if you're interested in analyzing ancestral/past relationship between people. Because only 1 or 2 individuals very much admixed in modern time (with foreign SNP values) can change the genetic distance in a big way. The degree of admixture (or purity) of the sampled chosen for each population must be kept in mind when analyzing a genetic tree.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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I don't know why you post studies about the M lineages and such? Studies which seems to contradict each others from what I read in your post(especially in their conclusions). I find that interesting but we need at least the percentages distribution (frequency) in the population when talking about haplogroups. It's also important to know which people were used in the sample. To derive ancestral population conclusions from modern DNA samples, which is not evident, it's important to pick people who are not admixed and thus are the "purest" native representative of their people as possible.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Perhaps it never occurred to you that the Egyptians wore afro wigs because such wigs represented their own natural hair-- Afros--since the Egyptians were Africans! And enough of the "negro" crap!
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