Similarly one could question any connection between Iberomaurusian/Capsians hunter foragers of the green sahara and modern Maghrebians
I've been questioning a "parent-to-offspring" link between the so-called "Iberomaurusians" and contemporary Imazighen populations of the Maghreb for quite a while. Where have you been?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Why ask questions to which you know the answers or rather just answered! LOLPosts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
The Cambridge World History of Slavery: Volume 3, AD 1420-AD 1804
However "favored" manifests this book claims that whiteness in Algiers is attributable to female slaves however they go on to say as much as ten times as many male slaves were taken. So they took many more males despite what was "favored".
Where did these "men" go? Back to Europe, while the females supposedly stayed behind?
exactly
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
It's also noticeable that your citation attempts to make a direct comparison between Maghrebi slavery and North American slavery. It appears that the author is driving at drawing up a more cruel handling of Europeans captives than that of African captives in America.
It says mortality rates were probably higher. That is possible.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
It would mean that the average Maghrebian, of which over 90% of the population resides in coastal areas, has more European ancestry than other Africans
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
I can imagine two possible things about the fuss you are making over "European ancestry" in the Maghreb:
1. Are you trying to tell me that every Maghrebi person must have European ancestry?
No I'm telling you that the average Maghrebian has significant Eurasian ancestry
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
2. Are you trying to tell me that Maghrebi populations are not really African?
What's the deal here; let's cut to the chase!
No, I'm saying many are very mixed, moreso than other Africans,
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
You don't find it odd that male slaves supposedly went back, leaving behind female slaves?
Secondly, what proof do you have of such a scenario?
quote:It says mortality rates were probably higher. That is possible.
Being "possible" is not a substitute for a "fact".
The direct comparison between the Maghrebi slavery and the North American one brings attention to possible motive behind the questionable estimation of male slaves.
Some have seized on recent reports about the history of Maghrebi slavery of Europeans to make political points in response to "white" guilt" about slavery in the Americas, to say that Europeans supposedly "had it worse" under Africans, and make counterpoints about "reparations" for slavery in North America.
quote: No I'm telling you that the average Maghrebian has significant Eurasian ancestry
You appear to be confused about what you are "telling me". To you, does "average" equate to "every"?
And what do you consider "significant"?
quote:]No, I'm saying many are very mixed, moreso than other Africans
I can't imagine an African population that is not "mixed". What makes the Maghrebi any "more mixed", which is what I imagine you are trying to say?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
You don't find it odd that male slaves supposedly went back, leaving behind female slaves?
No, the harem role of the women, sex slaves, is entirely different from the role of men. The men probably weren't capable of freeing the women who were situated inside the Pasha's or sultan's residence under guard and army. The men were expendable and would be used for more temporal projects
quote:It says mortality rates were probably higher. That is possible.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
The direct comparison between the Maghrebi slavery and the North American one brings attention to possible motive behind the questionable estimation of male slaves.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Some have seized on recent reports about the history of Maghrebi slavery of Europeans to make political points in response to "white" guilt" about slavery in the Americas, to say that Europeans supposedly "had it worse" under Africans, and make counterpoints about "reparations" for slavery in North America.
you are putting "had it worse" as a quote but it's not a quote. They said the attrition rate was estimated at 20%. The exact reasons are not indicated. That mortality rate should be considered in context of the mortality rate of all slaves of the Arab/Ottomans, including black African Zanj who were said to die in high numbers in the harsh salt mines of Iraq as well as very high mortality rates when slaves were being transported over land in long distances across Africa, along various trade routes, Ethiopians and various Africans enslaved by Muslim empires. They also castrated certain slaves and simply killed large numbers of slaves at times. Europeans in theory could seek reparations from Morocco and Algeria as well as black Africans. Reparations in America is hardly talked about in America currently and few blacks are pushing hard for it or even raising the issue. There are a tiny few but hardly any. This is a fact. It was probably more discussed in the 1990s
The topic of European slaves of Muslim empires was covered in several books including Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters 2004 by Robert C, Davis. The book ranks #173,655 on Amazon. I'm sure the mainstream of whites in America and Europe would rather not talk about this humiliating topic at all as opposed to a few obscure white supremacists who might like to use it in a "we had it worse than you" argument. However that cannot be said when as I said, you look at the Arab/Ottoman slave trading as a whole, white and blacks. After the Ottomans could no longer get away with raiding Europe and kidnapping Europeans as slaves they turned to enslaving more black women as domestics and sex slaves.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
You appear to be confused about what you are "telling me". To you, does "average" equate to "every"?
No it means "most"
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
And what do you consider "significant"?
That varies but in this case let's say 25% and up
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
I can't imagine an African population that is not "mixed". What makes the Maghrebi any "more mixed", which is what I imagine you are trying to say? [/QB]
A population would be more mixed if frequencies for haplogoups associated with Eurasia are higher in Maghrebians than frequencies of haplogoups associated with Eurasia in other Africans
Don't worry so much
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
No, the harem role of the women, sex slaves, is entirely different from the role of men. The men probably weren't capable of freeing the women who were situated inside the Pasha's or sultan's residence under guard and army. The men were expendable and would be used for more temporal projects
It strikes me as odd that of all the historic events of slavery, wherein both men and female slaves were brought in substantial numbers, as opposed to one gender favored over the other, that the males are sent back, leaving behind only a record of female slaves. Can you give me a single documented incidence of this?
And let's not forget that proof you never presented, of European male slaves being sent back, leaving the females behind.
quote:you are putting "had it worse" as a quote but it's not a quote.
Yeah, it's called emphasizing a general idea that some group or another holds. I don't have to use quotes only when I'm actually quoting a specific person. Sometimes I get the impression that you just crawled out from under a rock.
Besides, it IS implied in the your citation, that the European captives had it harder than than "blacks in the Americas".
quote:They said the attrition rate was estimated at 20%. The exact reasons are not indicated.
If you read further down, the citation offers a reason for the attrition. Neither the estimation or the reasons offered are "exact".
quote:That mortality rate should be considered in context of the mortality rate of all slaves of the Arab/Ottomans, including black African Zanj who were said to die in high numbers in the harsh salt mines of Iraq as well as very high mortality rates when slaves were being transported over land in long distances across Africa, along various trade routes, Ethiopians and various Africans enslaved by Muslim empires.
Well, newsflash: Your citation only compares European slaves in the Maghreb with the American slaves.
quote:They also castrated certain slaves and simply killed large numbers of slaves at times.
I've talked about possible castration of male slaves in my notes on slavery in the Maghreb myself. That doesn't justify a lack of record left by male slaves of the size being insinuated in your citation.
quote:Europeans in theory could seek reparations from Morocco and Algeria as well as black Africans. Reparations in America is hardly talked about in America currently and few blacks are pushing hard for it or even raising the issue. There are a tiny few but hardly any. This is a fact. It was probably more discussed in the 1990s
Politics around "white guilt" and "reparations" for slavery in the Americas, particularly North America, is an issue that has re-surfaced on occasion when the topic presents itself. This is not something that a specific date or time can be applied to as a cap.
The idea of reparations have often taken the form of figurative speak, since it is not something that most observers actually see happening.
"Morocco and Algeria, and black Africans" can in theory seek reparations that probably outweighs your theory of European reparation pursuits, given the carnage Europeans have caused to these territories and said peoples in their "carving up" Africa to the present neo-colonial destructive forces that they have put in place with the help of institutions like the IMF, World Bank and the UN.
quote: The topic of European slaves of Muslim empires was covered in several books including Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters 2004 by Robert C, Davis. The book ranks #173,655 on Amazon. I'm sure the mainstream of whites in America and Europe would rather not talk about this humiliating topic at all as opposed to a few obscure white supremacists who might like to use it in a "we had it worse than you" argument.
Of course, most of the time whites in said places would perhaps "rather not talk about this humiliating topic", because said whites do not honestly think they are actual victims of such proportion. Perhaps this plays a part when "slavery" is taken off the table as a likely contributor to supposed "European" component in the Maghreb maternal gene pool. On occasion however, when confronted with "white guilt" talk about European carnage of other people, it becomes enticing to capitalize on such "humiliating topic", and this is not necessarily relegated to a few white supremacist zealots.
quote:No it means "most"
Really? You know this because you sampled "most" Maghrebi folks? I haven't come across any sample that has achieved that.
quote:That varies but in this case let's say 25% and up
Give me the numbers, and the specific markers that would render say, 25% European ancestry, in "most" Maghrebi folks.
quote:A population would be more mixed if frequencies for haplogoups associated with Eurasia are higher in Maghrebians than frequencies of haplogoups associated with Eurasia in other Africans
Don't worry so much
Funny talk aside, if anyone needs to worry, you couldn't be a better candidate:
So, firstly, only when there is supposed "Eurasian" elements in a gene pool, it is rendered "mixed"?
Your double standard belies rational thinking: Any combination of distinct monophyletic units in a gene pool technically constitutes a "mixture" of ancestries. "Eurasian" monophyletic units do not hold any supernatural superiority over any other monophyletic unit.
You are in the 21st century with a 19th century mind, since the ideas you hold had even been outmoded by the time the 20th century itself ended. Your mind is still locked into perceiving a concept that was put into place in the 19th century Europe, i.e. human racialism and racial hierarchy, as a scientific reality.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
I did however note, that a good amount of what is considered "foreign" ancestry, in the maternal gene pool, can likely be attributable to a slavery institution that largely favored females.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It strikes me as odd that of all the historic events of slavery, wherein both men and female slaves were brought in substantial numbers, as opposed to one gender favored over the other,
are you changing your position?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tip: When having difficulty in reading, it generally helps to read the complete message, rather than cut it off, only to deepen your confusion.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
The number of male slaves relative to the number of female slaves. The ratio was skewed towards males because plantation owners desired 'prime male slaves' above others and African societies wanted to retain female slaves. As a result, slaving ships embarked more male than female slaves. - The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database
posted
"lioness" productions is apparently a crumbling enterprise.
As decorative as it may be, give copying & pasting a rest, and try this out:
What evidence do you have of European male slaves of the Maghreb being expelled back to Europe, while females stayed behind?
And if you can stomach it, try this too:
Can you give me a single incidence of this happening anywhere in history?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: "lioness" productions is apparently a crumbling enterprise.
As decorative as it may be, give copying & pasting a rest, and try this out:
What evidence do you have of European male slaves of the Maghreb being expelled back to Europe, while females stayed behind?
And if you can stomach it, try this too:
Can you give me a single incidence of this happening anywhere in history?
We are talking about pirates who sometimes took over European merchant ships as one of their sources for European slaves and cargo. And they probably also treated these people harshly becuase of pervious European colonial incursions. The ships would have been all male. They also raided European coastal villages an took women and children. Europeans were sometimes kidnapped for ransom. Sometimes ransoms were paid or people escaped. I don't know all the details yet but you know less on this topic. I am confident that there were a lot more male slaves then women. It is a unique situation involving pirates, ship take overs and evolving political situation between the Ottomans and Europeans including war. As late as 1908, female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire
The main point here is that it doesn't matter to what extent European male slaves returned to Europe. There were a lot more males slaves. There could be various reasons that there male DNA is maybe not more reflective of their greater proprtion compared to women slaves.
I actually read some things about this topic. You come in saying they favored woemen implying they captured more of them. Then you are talking about "both", You are simply making up stuff.
Do some actual reserach on this topic before you step to the lioness. You are merely trying to prove me wrong for it's own sake an basing it not on research but on rhetoric alone. You are the ultimate nitpicker with a very confrontional humourless uptight style. Haven't I told you to lighten up and take life less seriously? And tangling with me just to get away from Swenet?
__________
wiki:
Arab slavery
The conquests of the Arab armies and the expansion of the Islamic state that followed have always resulted in the capture of war prisoners who were subsequently set free or turned into slaves or Raqeeq (رقيق) and servants rather than taken as prisoners as was the Islamic tradition in wars.During the 8th and 9th centuries of the Fatimid Caliphate, most of the slaves were Europeans (called Saqaliba) captured along European coasts and during wars. However, slaves were drawn from a wide variety of regions and included Mediterranean peoples, Persians, peoples from the Caucasus mountain regions (such as Georgia, Armenia and Circassia) and parts of Central Asia and Scandinavia, English, Dutch and Irish, Berbers from North Africa, and various other peoples of varied origins as well as those of African origins.[citation needed] Toward the 18th and 19th centuries, the flow of slaves from East Africa increased with the rise of the Oman sultanate which was based in Zanzibar. Historians estimate that between 10 and 18 million Africans were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken across the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, and Sahara desert between 650 and 1900. Many of the "Arab" slave traders such as Tippu Tip and others were indistinguishable from the "Africans" whom they enslaved and sold. The Arab slave trade originated before Islam and lasted more than a millennium. By the 14th century, an overwhelming number of slaves came from sub-Saharan Africa,
In contrast to the Atlantic slave trade where the male-female ratio was 2:1 or 3:1, the Arab slave trade usually had a higher female to male ratio instead, suggesting a general preference for female slaves.
The Arab slave trade from East Africa is one of the oldest slave trades, predating the European transatlantic slave trade by 700 years.Male slaves were often employed as servants, soldiers, or laborers by their owners, while female slaves, including those from Africa, were long traded to the Middle Eastern countries and kingdoms by Arab and Oriental traders as concubines and servants.
^^^ pre Barbary
Ottoman Slavery
Hundreds of thousands of Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.[18][19] These slave raids were conducted largely by Arabs and Berbers rather than Ottoman Turks. However, during the height of the Barbary slave trade in the 16th and 17th centuries, the Barbary states were subject to Ottoman jurisdiction and ruled by Ottoman pashas. Furthermore, many slaves captured by the Barbary corsairs were sold eastward into Ottoman territories before, during, and after Barbary's period of Ottoman rule.
As there were restrictions on the enslavement of Muslims or "people of the Bible", pagan Africa was a good source of slaves. Black slaves were coming from East and Central Africa, mainly from areas such as Abyssinia, Sudan, Northern Nigeria and Chad. Black slaves were employed in households and in the army as slave-soldiers. Some could ascend to high rank officials but in general were inferior to European and Caucasian slaves.
The concubines of the Ottoman Sultan consisted chiefly of purchased slaves. The Sultan's concubines were generally of Christian origin, as Islamic law forbade Muslims to enslave fellow Muslims. The mother of a Sultan, though technically a slave, received the extremely powerful title of Valide Sultan which raised her to the status of a ruler of the Empire (see Sultanate of women). One notable example was Kösem Sultan, daughter of a Greek Christian priest, who dominated the Ottoman Empire during the early decades of the 17th century.[22] Roxelana, another notable example, was the favorite wife of Suleiman the Magnificent.
The concubines were guarded by enslaved eunuchs, themselves often of African origin. While Islamic law forbade the emasculation of a man, Ethiopian Christians had no such compunctions; thus, they enslaved and emasculated members of neighboring nations and sold the resulting eunuchs to the Ottoman Porte.[23]
The Coptic Orthodox Church participated extensively in the slave trade of Nubian or Abyssinian eunuchs. Coptic priests sliced the penis and testicles off boys around the age of eight in a castration operation. The eunuch boys were then sold in the Ottoman Empire. The majority of Ottoman eunuchs endured castration at the hands of the Copts at Abou Gerbe monastery on Mount Ghebel Eter.[24] African boys were captured from Abyssinia and other areas in Sudan like Darfur and Kordofan then brought into Sudan and Egypt. During the operation, the Coptic clergyman chained the boys to tables and after slicing their sexual organs off, they stuck a bamboo catheter into the genital area, then submerged them in sand up to their necks. The recovery rate was 10 percent. The resulting eunuchs fetched large profits in contrast to eunuchs from other areas.
Circassians, Syrians and Nubians were the three primary races of females who were sold as sex slaves in the Ottoman Empire.
Due to European intervention during the 19th century, the Empire began to attempt to curtail the slave trade, which had been considered legally valid under Ottoman law since the beginning of the empire. One of the important campaigns against Ottoman slavery and slave trade was conducted in the Caucasus by the Russian authorities [31]
A series of legal acts was issued that limited the slavery of white people initially and of those of all races and religions later. In 1830, a firman of Sultan Mahmud II gave freedom to white slaves. This category included the Circassians, who had the custom of selling their own children, enslaved Greeks who had revolted against the Empire in 1821, and some others. Another firman abolishing the trade of Circassian children was issued in October, 1854. A firman to the Pasha of Egypt was issued in 1857 and an order to the viziers of various local authorities in the Near East, such as the Balkans and Cyprus, in 1858, prohibited the trade of black slaves but did not order the liberation of those already enslaved.
However, slavery and the slave trade in Ottoman Empire continued for decades, as legal texts like the above were not backed by a penalty system. It was not until 1871 that a circular of July 20th of that year introduced the penalty of one years imprisonment for those who practiced the slave trade.
Later, slave trafficking was expressly forbidden by utilizing clever technical loopholes in the application of sharia, or Islamic law. For example, by the terms of the sharia, anyone taken as a slave could not be kept a slave if they had been Muslim prior to their capture. They could also not be captured legitimately without a formal declaration of war, which could only be issued by the Sultan. As late Ottoman Sultans wished to halt slavery, they did not authorize raids for the purpose of capturing slaves, and thus it effectively became illegal to procure new slaves, although those already in slavery would remain slaves.[32][33]
Towards the end of the 19th century, the trade of black slaves gradually ceased in places controlled by Western powers but continued undercover in countries around the Indian Ocean controlled by Eastern governments, particularly Ottoman rule such as East Africa, Arabian Peninsula. Britain and the Ottoman Empire, after the former pressed the latter on this matter, signed a treaty in 1880 for the abolition of slavery and the slave trade. However, the treaty was only enforced under Ottoman law in 1889.
As recently as the 1950s, Saudi Arabia's slave population was estimated at 450,000 — approximately 20% of the population.[3 It is estimated that as many as 200,000 Sudanese children and women had been taken into slavery during the Second Sudanese Civil War.[39][40] Slavery in Mauritania was legally abolished by laws passed in 1905, 1961, and 1981. It was finally criminalized in August 2007. It is estimated that up to 600,000 Mauritanians, or 20% of Mauritania's population, are currently in conditions which some consider to be "slavery", namely many of them used as bonded labour due to poverty.
_______________________________________
Explorer. I'm not going to argue with you based purly on rhetoric It's boring and there is not much learning involved.
If somebody has a dispute with what I'm saying come at me with some research. documentation
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Is the European ancestry in modern North Africans primarily due to European slaves?
So what percentages are R, I, J, and E? That should answer the question.
2)The idea of unsettled desert trekkers always sparse in number trasnsporting approximately 10 million Africans to sparsely populated non-agricultural, non-industrialised desert areas is not very credible. Wiki should be edited on this.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:[b]Is the European ancestry in modern North Africans primarily due to European slaves?
So what percentages are R, I, J, and E? That should answer the question.
The fact the European and Arab ancestry is present (also include hap H) does not verify that European slaves were the primary source of this ancestry in North Africans.Ther were also Phoenician. Roman and Vandal occupations, expulsion of Moors including Moriscos and according to the Brenna Henn article on page 1 of this thread a back migration thousands of years prior. Which of these sources as well as Euroepan slaves accounts for most of the European and Arabian ancestry? It's difficult to know
quote:Originally posted by lamin: 2)The idea of unsettled desert trekkers always sparse in number trasnsporting approximately 10 million Africans to sparsely populated non-agricultural, non-industrialised desert areas is not very credible. Wiki should be edited on this. [/qb]
You need to do more research. slaves were being trasported all over, from Africa to all regions of the Arabian and Ottoman empires. One example, The Zanj were for centuries shipped out of Zanzibar as slaves by Arab traders to all the countries bordering the Indian Ocean and to salt mines in Iraq. Another example the Mamluk slave armies who were purchased and to become the dominant element of the Abbasid caliphs of late 9th century Baghdad. Explorer (aka Professor Nitpick) take note, males once again, slave armies both black and white utilized by Islamic regimes, women used as domestic servants and sometimes as concubine sex slaves.
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
it is not big enough. you need to double-up on the size...
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
We are talking about pirates who sometimes took over European merchant ships as one of their sources for European slaves and cargo.
Should I take it that your attempt at changing the subject means you do not have answers to the simple questions I asked of you?
quote: And they probably also treated these people harshly becuase of pervious European colonial incursions.
Raiding ships predominantly manned by men probably made a good business platform through the demand of ransoms, but given the choices available at the time in the Maghreb, it would not have been a considerable labor pool for hard slave labor...unless of course, the ships were magnets for the capture of females.
quote:I don't know all the details yet but you know less on this topic.
If I do, then you must be even less knowledgeable. Copying & pasting sources that you are easily suckered into believing, without critical thinking, does not make you knowledgeable about the subject matter.
quote: I am confident that there were a lot more male slaves then women.
This confidence must be driven by emotion, or should I dare you to provide proof?
quote:The main point here is that it doesn't matter to what extent European male slaves returned to Europe.
It does. You are telling a story that is not apparent in tangible evidence. The scenario you have presented is historically an unlikely one.
quote: There were a lot more males slaves. There could be various reasons that there male DNA is maybe not more reflective of their greater proprtion compared to women slaves.
The European male contribution into the Maghrebi gene pool is essentially negligible. You have not offered a single reason that is demonstrable by evidence for your "greater male slaves" theory.
quote: I actually read some things about this topic. You come in saying they favored woemen implying they captured more of them. Then you are talking about "both", You are simply making up stuff.
You are dosing off to your imaginary land, and/or too dense to read properly. I haven't changed my position about what genetics is telling me, nor have I said anything about this so-called "both" other than to question your theory.
quote: Do some actual reserach on this topic before you step to the lioness. You are merely trying to prove me wrong for it's own sake an basing it not on research but on rhetoric alone.
I'd say evidence and history so far tend to favor my viewpoint over yours. If you don't happen to like that state of affairs, then do something about it: prove your case!
quote:You are the ultimate nitpicker with a very confrontional humourless uptight style.
You seem so emotional, and here you are advising someone else to "lighten up".
quote: Haven't I told you to lighten up and take life less seriously? And tangling with me just to get away from Swenet?
You've lost your marbles. It was you who baited me to this subject, and I bit; now you are crying about being confronted. LOL
As for the chump, your whining is childishly silly, since I've probably beaten up on that chump far more than I have any other poster, including you.
You've been here since 2010, and you are still not bright enough to have figured out that I don't back away from anyone or anything I deem needs confronting. The keyword here being, "needs", meaning I don't do it out of the depraved-driven need to troll just to enjoy an otherwise joyless life, like say, you do.
quote: Explorer. I'm not going to argue with you based purly on rhetoric It's boring and there is not much learning involved.
Speaking of rhetoric, this sounds like a cop-out rhetoric.
quote: If somebody has a dispute with what I'm saying come at me with some research. documentation
And that, I have: It's called genetics and history. What have you got, other than blindly copying & pasting stories by others, that you cannot possibly authenticate?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Is the European ancestry in modern North Africans primarily due to European slaves?
It's funny, you like directing questions at me, but hate answering questions I direct at you. Your question is not important, it is simply redundant, as I have already spoken on the subject multiple times in no vague terms. My question is actually the more important one, which no less has gone unanswered, which I think tells us a lot about your viewpoints.
However, unlike your treatment of me, I'll be courteous and answer your query:
Much of what can unquestionably be identified as "European ancestry", is very likely the result of the historic Maghrebi involvements in Iberia during the Islamic conquests of the region, and the slavery of largely European women.
Other so-called "Eurasian" components may actually be a combination of "Neolithic" movement from the eastward areas, Saharan ancestry which appear to be similar to ancestry outside the continent but misleadingly identified as "Eurasian", and to a smaller extent, Arab influence.
I don't get the impression that the Neolithic contribution (from the "Near East") was all that great either. The Saharan element likely takes the lions share.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Explorer (aka Professor Nitpick) take note, males once again, slave armies both black and white utilized by Islamic regimes, women used as domestic servants and sometimes as concubine sex slaves.
lioness, (aka Professor whining troll), I have taken note, but I'm not convinced by your speculative posts. Try applying critical thinking and evidence.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:I don't know all the details yet but you know less on this topic.
If I do, then you must be even less knowledgeable. Copying & pasting sources that you are easily suckered into believing, without critical thinking, does not make you knowledgeable about the subject matter.
I posted references on the topic of slavery of Europeans in the Islamic empires. You put up none you know little of that particular history unless you are now researching it and have been relying on "critical thinking" alone, maybe this and maybe that. You think one slavery should be like another slavery. I pointed out the raiding of other ships for cargo and to enslave crews and only now do you notice the gender implications of that. You only employ "critcial thinking' after I bring up historical details that you didn't think of until that point. Castration? That was known to be dones to Black harem guards but did they do it to Europeans also. I don't know. That is a topic requiring book research which you are too lazy to do. would rather win points against me on nitpicking. And you are anti-emotion in rhetoric at the same time as displaying emotion. Did you know that many men died during these castration proceedures? Again that is a detail I brought out in my research as you sit and wait as I reveal more of these details and then react. You're a recator
I copy and and pasted sources and made comments. Because you had no sources to copy and paste you question the copy and pasting itself. I can't say Troll Patrol, for instance, is lazy about posting sources.
Perhaps this is becasue you are too lazy to copy and paste sources and find and image host for a counter argument.
I may not be posting anymore in this crap unmoderated forum where people can post thes giant pictures over and over again and nothing gets done about it. And this done not even against posters who had ongoing beef with white nubian
I recommend a boycott starting July 1
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Explorer (aka Professor Nitpick) take note, males once again, slave armies both black and white utilized by Islamic regimes, women used as domestic servants and sometimes as concubine sex slaves.
lioness, (aka Professor whining troll), I have taken note, but I'm not convinced by your speculative posts. Try applying critical thinking and evidence.
LOL Just be glad she actually cited sources properly for a change instead of copying and pasting stuff in plagiarist style as she usually does.
By the way, you know is getting worked up from all the evidence presented of black Africans enslaving whites. You can tell from the multiple bombardment of oversized pics. As if such will make the info go away. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
I posted references on the topic of slavery of Europeans in the Islamic empires.
I did give you credit for copy & pasting without critical thinking, did I not?
Merely citing stuff is not evidence or proof of whatever you are trying to argue about.
quote:You put up none
I've made my case on several occasions using genetics and history. You are simply too intellectually challenged to have noticed. Only in my case, genetics matches the allegations made in historical narration for the Maghreb. None of your allegations, except for the part about enslaving females and pirates raiding ships, are either logical from a historical standpoint or backed by available evidence.
quote: you know little of that particular history unless you are now researching it and have been relying on "critical thinking" alone, maybe this and maybe that.
You sound like a broken record. Try a new accusation that hasn't already been refuted.
quote:You think one slavery should be like another slavery.
As evidenced by what? It's just one of your fairy tales.
I questioned the veracity of your references to supposed intensive Maghrebi application of "white" male slaves and that their numbers would have been greater than the females.
I also challenged you to not only provide evidence for your unsubstantiated allegation about these male slaves having been expelled back to Europe while the females supposedly stayed behind, but also to demonstrate a historical precedence for your bizarre allegation.
Both these challenges were met with emotional responses, crying about being challenged (to you, read "nitpicking") on topics that you use as a bait to drag people to notice you.
quote:I pointed out the raiding of other ships for cargo and to enslave crews and only now do you notice the gender implications of that.
You haven't said anything about the ship raids that has not already been discussed in this board long before you showed up here. You are Johnny-come-lately and you think you are bringing some grand new revelation to ES. LOL
quote: You only employ "critcial thinking' after I bring up historical details that you didn't think of until that point. Castration?
As I said above, you are notorious for being too ignorant to keep up with topics that have already been discussed, over and over.
quote:That is a topic requiring book research which you are too lazy to do.
I gather then your "hard work" is gullibility, which sure requires "intense" brain activity, and blindly copying & pasting stuff from the net?
quote: would rather win points against me on nitpicking. And you are anti-emotion in rhetoric at the same time as displaying emotion.
Nitpicking to you is a code word for your frustration out of being challenged on topics that you baited with no less.
Where you come from, is there such a concept as a "contradiction"? Judging from the above, I'll guess not.
quote: Did you know that many men died during these castration proceedures?
No, I didn't know that white male slaves died out from castration in the Maghreb. Your evidence for this is?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Patently stupid is when you can't tell your figment (above) apart from reality...
Sure, that's how your filthy lying ass likes to spin it, but, unfortunately for your lying ass, you went on record saying uni/multi- variate analysis is the same as a moderately variably/highly variable locus! Here it is, fraud:
quote: Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This chump thinks uniparental markers are "univariate" vs. the "multivariate" supposed "genomewide" analysis.
You don't even know what uni/multi-variate analysis is, just like you don't know what PCA or body linearity is. Prove me wrong that you know what uni/multi- variate analysis is, and that it contradicts with what I said!
To the chump above (swenet), uniparental markers are not univariate entities. They span multiple loci, some more variable than others, as any other segment of the human genome. This is not cranio-morphometric analysis where individual features are examined for their variability.
I guess we can add your profoundly retarded insistence that low/high degrees of polymorphism are the same thing as uni/multivariate analysis to your existing rap-sheet of phuckups in the area of biological anthropology.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Swenet, I don't know if you've been reading on this white slavery stuff in Arab and Ottman empires. There are a few more additional book pages in my white slaves thread. I think it's reasonable that some of them have become intermixed with the North African population. I'm convinced there were a lot more men, these girls were expensive and most were in Ottoman or Moroccan Sultan's exclusive harems. Nevertheless they could have had an impact of the make up of North Africans. One quote I had up speculated the look of the people of Algiers is influenced by this slave Euroepan admixture. How much of an influence do you think that might have been on the whole Maghreb in terms of the spread of European haplogroups? I don't know Some people seem to imply there was no back migration 12kya, Vandals and Romans etc. were insignificant, that the presence of these European haplogoups are due to raped white women.
And then if you inquire what are the European hpalogoups showing this the same people argue that these haplogoups are really African.
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Who cares? Explorer compulsively lies his ass off, what makes you think arguing with him is going to take you anywhere and that he won't lie about ancient migration from Iberia to the Maghreb? Are you going to attach value to his lies or to peer reviewed data?
quote:The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ∼11 ky (Achilli et al. 2004). Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a —which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ∼15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
--Achilli et al 2005
The haplotypes implied here have differentiated in Africa and are simply not explicable in terms of recent slave trade:
quote:In addition, it has to be taken into account that half of the H lineages detected in North Africa are not shared with other regions and that this percentage is even greater in the putative source regions of the Near East (70%) and the Iberian Peninsula (76%). These facts point to a higher differentiation among regions and between populations than those observed previously. Indeed, complete or nearly complete sequencing of some apparently identical samples indicates that the real genetic heterogeneity among regions is greater than those estimated above (Figure 2). To begin with, the HVSI motif 16093 -16189 that characterizes subgroup H1f was found in an individual (Mor 2047) from Morocco (Figure 2) also in an H1 background. This sub-group is particularly abundant and mainly restricted to Finland and the surrounding populations [36]. At first sight, this coincidence would seem to point to a new link between North European with North African populations like that found previously for U5b1b [26]. However, in this case, further analysis of the coding region in the North African sample revealed a lack of the three coding region mutations that additionally characterize the Finish H1f subgroup [38] (Figure 2).
--Ennafaa 2009
quote: In addition to the CRS, the 16189 and the 16311 HVSI motifs are quite abundant in North Africa (see Additional file 1). However, when these samples were screened for the coding region positions observed in completely sequenced European or Middle East individuals that held the same HVSI motifs (Figure 2), none of these positions appeared in the North African samples.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] Who cares? Explorer compulsively lies his ass off, what makes you think arguing with him is going to take you anywhere
yes but you seem to be going on forever with him
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just a guilty pleasure of mine; exposing him for the lying charlatan he is. Certainly not because I expect something productive out of it.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Only problem for him is that his a priori acceptance of whatever soothes his pre-existing beliefs consistently puts him in a predicament where posters who know their sh!t thrash him like a pinata. Discussions with him predictably follow a pattern where it gradually dawns on the charlatan that he is on the opposite end of the scientific data, at which point he goes in denialist mode, replies selectively and peppers his posts with non-replies, lies, fallacies and whatever else accomplishes his goal of saving face at all cost.
Don't even have to tell you, what did he do when you stepped in and corrected him on the Pygmy bodyplan issue? Did he adjust his views, or continue with lying pathologically and acting as if his nose bleeds?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Swenet, I don't know if you've been reading on this white slavery stuff in Arab and Ottman empires. There are a few more additional book pages in my white slaves thread. I think it's reasonable that some of them have become intermixed with the North African population. I'm convinced there were a lot more men, these girls were expensive and most were in Ottoman or Moroccan Sultan's exclusive harems. Nevertheless they could have had an impact of the make up of North Africans. One quote I had up speculated the look of the people of Algiers is influenced by this slave Euroepan admixture. How much of an influence do you think that might have been on the whole Maghreb in terms of the spread of European haplogroups? I don't know Some people seem to imply there was no back migration 12kya, Vandals and Romans etc. were insignificant, that the presence of these European haplogoups are due to raped white women.
And then if you inquire what are the European hpalogoups showing this the same people argue that these haplogoups are really African.
The number of Vandals wasn't I significant. It was quite large. And have you ever wondered from where the Vandals originally came?
"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
We can sit here acting as if none of this ever happened. But in Morocco and other parts of the Maghreb all this is well known. The problem here is that Henn et al don't mention anything on these recorded events. Which seems odd, at least
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
From: Procopius, History of the Wars, 7 vols., trans. H. B. Dewing (Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard University Press & Wm. Heinemann, 1914; reprint ed., 1953-54), II.23-73.
Scanned by: J. S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton. Prof. Arkenberg has modernized the text. In 406 the Vandals advanced from Pannonia by way of Gaul, which they devastated terribly, into Spain, where they settled in 411. From 427 their king was Genseric (Gaiseric), who in 429 landed in North Africa with about 80,000 of his followers.
-Member of the Centre for the Study of the Ancient -Mediterranean and the Near East -Member of the Durham Centre for Roman Culture -Member of the Institute of Medieval and Renaissance
Pottery
I have been working for a long time and published several articles on Roman pottery in Rome, Italy and North Africa. I have a good knowledge of all the classes of pottery that circulated in the Mediterranean from the Republican period to the 7th/8th century AD and beyond.
The period in question from AD 300 to AD 700, spans more that political transitions: it sees the adoption of Christianity (during the Las Imperial period and the Byzantine times), the Vandal rule and the adoption of Arianism and the Arab/Muslim imposition.
So in conclusion , to suggest that the Vandals didn't reach the Atlas mountains of Morocco and considering this as impossible or as plausible is highly impeccable. Considering the fact that these groups moved into the mountains to remain secure, this is very well known, at the time of the Arab conquest. It was only 130 years later that the Arabs came in. The Vandals came in the 6th century the Arabs in the 7th. The root of these Germanic Vandal people is eventually at North Europe. There is where they can be traced back to. It also shows how the regions was already destabilized. This also explains the already indigenous Moroccan dark brown complected vs the enslaved Africans from the south into Morocco. Actually facilitated by the Byzantines, Vandal types.
Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.
Look where the Ottoman Empire had its main base.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
you are the one who in may thread suggested that there was no evidence of Vandal occuption you kept saying "where's the fossils" about a hundred times. This proves my theory whatever I say you say the opposite.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:The recent molecular dissection of other mtDNA haplogroups reveals some clues. H1 and H3, two frequent subhaplogroups of H, display frequency peaks centered in Iberia and surrounding populations, including the Berbers of Morocco, and coalescence ages of ∼11 ky (Achilli et al. 2004). Furthermore, their frequency patterns and ages resemble those reported for haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001a —which, similar to U5b1b, is extremely common only in the Saami (together, U5b1b and V encompass almost 90% of the Saami mtDNAs) (Torroni et al. 1996; Tambets et al. 2004). Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ∼15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
--Achilli et al 2005
The haplotypes implied here have differentiated in Africa and are simply not explicable in terms of recent slave trade:
There are a few more additional book pages in my white slaves thread. I think it's reasonable that some of them have become intermixed with the North African population.
You have presented no evidence whatsoever of either a lopsided white "male" slavery, or of their genetic contribution into the Maghreb gene pool.
quote: I'm convinced there were a lot more men, these girls were expensive and most were in Ottoman or Moroccan Sultan's exclusive harems.
You convince yourself; might as well, since you shouldn't be able to convince anyone who is rational.
quote: Nevertheless they could have had an impact of the make up of North Africans. One quote I had up speculated the look of the people of Algiers is influenced by this slave Euroepan admixture.
Those pieces you quote must really look like biblical pages to you, don't they? A lot of people of faith simply believe biblical narrations without any critical and independent thinking.
quote: How much of an influence do you think that might have been on the whole Maghreb in terms of the spread of European haplogroups? I don't know Some people seem to imply there was no back migration 12kya, Vandals and Romans etc.
Well, I'm all ears: What can you tell us about this European back-migration that supposedly happened 12kya, since you seem to believe it happened?
The Vandals and Romans must have had negligible, if any at all, genetic impact on the Maghrebi. Only those people who like to wish away North Africans as "transplanted Europeans" refer to supposed Roman and Vandal connections.
quote: were insignificant, that the presence of these European haplogoups are due to raped white women.
Provide examples of these "some people" who "imply the above"!
quote: And then if you inquire what are the European hpalogoups showing this the same people argue that these haplogoups are really African.
Examples!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
Sure, that's how your filthy lying ass likes to spin it, but, unfortunately for your lying ass, you went on record saying uni/multi- variate analysis is the same as a moderately variably/highly variable locus!
Nope, just your fairy tale. When you are ready to confront the real world, keep in touch!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
The Vandals and Romans must have had negligible, if any at all, genetic impact on the Maghrebi. Only those people who like to wish away North Africans as "transplanted Europeans" refer to supposed Roman and Vandal connections.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: The number of Vandals wasn't insignificant. It was quite large. And have you ever wondered from where the Vandals originally came?
"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
We can sit here acting as if none of this ever happened. But in Morocco and other parts of the Maghreb all this is well known. The problem here is that Henn et al don't mention anything on these recorded events. Which seems odd, at least
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
From: Procopius, History of the Wars, 7 vols., trans. H. B. Dewing (Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard University Press & Wm. Heinemann, 1914; reprint ed., 1953-54), II.23-73.
The haplotypes implied here have differentiated in Africa and are simply not explicable in terms of recent slave trade:
quote:In addition, it has to be taken into account that half of the H lineages detected in North Africa are not shared with other regions and that this percentage is even greater in the putative source regions of the Near East (70%) and the Iberian Peninsula (76%). These facts point to a higher differentiation among regions and between populations than those observed previously. Indeed, complete or nearly complete sequencing of some apparently identical samples indicates that the real genetic heterogeneity among regions is greater than those estimated above (Figure 2). To begin with, the HVSI motif 16093 -16189 that characterizes subgroup H1f was found in an individual (Mor 2047) from Morocco (Figure 2) also in an H1 background. This sub-group is particularly abundant and mainly restricted to Finland and the surrounding populations [36]. At first sight, this coincidence would seem to point to a new link between North European with North African populations like that found previously for U5b1b [26]. However, in this case, further analysis of the coding region in the North African sample revealed a lack of the three coding region mutations that additionally characterize the Finish H1f subgroup [38] (Figure 2).
--Ennafaa 2009
...
Funny you should mention Ennafaa et al. 2009, because I have a different take on their data:
The relative affinities among regions are based on subhaplogroup frequencies, which do not take into account differences between haplotypes assorted in the same subgroup, or in haplotypic matches, whose identity is based only on partial HVSI sequences. In addition, it has to be taken into account that half of the H lineages detected in North Africa are not shared with other regions and that this percentage is even greater in the putative source regions of the Near East (70%) and the Iberian Peninsula (76%). These facts point to a higher differentiation among regions and between populations than those observed previously. Indeed, complete or nearly complete sequencing of some apparently identical samples indi- cates that the real genetic heterogeneity among regions is greater than those estimated above (Figure 2).
To begin with, the HVSI motif 16093 -16189 that characterizes subgroup H1f was found in an individual (Mor 2047) from Morocco (Figure 2) also in an H1 background. This subgroup is particularly abundant and mainly restricted to Finland and the surrounding populations [36]. At first sight, this coincidence would seem to point to a new link between North European with North African populations like that found previously for U5b1b [26]. However, in this case, further analysis of the coding region in the North African sample revealed a lack of the three coding region mutations that additionally characterize the Finish H1f subgroup [38] (Figure 2). This lack of identity between haplotypes assorted in the same subgroup and sharing the same or similar HVSI motif can be extended to other cases. For instance, there is a group of H sequences that shares the 16145 – 16222 HVSI motif consistently found in Northwestern Africa, the Sahara and several Western Sahelian populations [15].
The complete sequencing of a Mauritanian sample (Mau 2027) allowed the assignation of this type to the subhaplogroup H1 (Figure 2). The direct connection of this motif with a German sequence was previously suggested [15]. However, the additional presence of transitions 16304 and 456 in the HVSI and HVSII regions respectively in that German haplotype [43] indicated that it should be classified as belonging to the H5 instead of the H1 subgroup, which does not support a direct link between these regions. In contrast, the two 16145 – 16222 haplotypes sporadically detected in the Iberian Peninsula [[44] and unpublished results] belonged to the North African subgroup as they shared the coding 10257 mutation, in addition to the H1 diagnostic transition 3010, with the totally sequenced Mauritanian sample (Figure 2). It seems that the 10257 transition defines a new subgroup within H1. This fact points to a possible, although not recent, North African demic influence on the Iberian genetic pool.
Going further...
Another interesting group of sequences belonging to the H1 subgroup in North Africa is that characterized by the 16172 – 16311 motif, which we [15] and others [19] have found mainly in Saharan samples. Haplotypes with, or including, this HVSI motif have also been detected in European [45,43,8][46-49] and in Asian [50-54] samples, but not in the Iberian Peninsula yet (see Additional file 1). However, the possibility of direct phylogenetic links among such distant regions is very weak, because all of those individuals further classified in both regions belong to the H5 subgroup or the HV haplogroup [48,49] in Europe, or to the HV or the R2 haplogroups [53,54] in the Middle East, which strongly points to yet another case of HVSI convergence in distinct backgrounds of coding regions. In addition to the CRS, the 16189 and the 16311 HVSI motifs are quite abundant in North Africa (see Additional file 1).
However, when these samples were screened for the coding region positions observed in completely sequenced European or Middle East individuals that held the same HVSI motifs (Figure 2), none of these positions appeared in the North African samples. This lack of homogeneity again strongly points to their different monophyletic coding backgrounds, in spite of their HVSI matches, a fact repeatedly found in other studies [38].
Not done yet...
Indeed, in this study, there are also instances of molecular convergence in the coding region. Sequences How 73H and Jor 843 share the 12236 transition, although they respectively belong to the H* and H5 subgropups (Figure 2). The 12358 transition also presents one such case that is shared by four sequences (Her 127, Ach 28, MM H2, and Mau 2027) belonging to different H subgroups (Figure 2).
The point being, that pointing to H does not necessarily serve as unequivocal proof of a European origin. This is not to say that elements of Hg H are not due to European gene pool, but that not all the clade is necessarily implicated in such a gene flow. That aside, dating estimates are just that, estimates, and are a subject to the methodology applied and assumptions that went along with that, by the authors. I've noted this time and again, and can't stress it enough!
PS: You keep reminding readers of what a total nutcase you are in your incessant blind and dumb reliance on Kefi et al.'s discredited reports.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
The Vandals and Romans must have had negligible, if any at all, genetic impact on the Maghrebi. Only those people who like to wish away North Africans as "transplanted Europeans" refer to supposed Roman and Vandal connections.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: The number of Vandals wasn't insignificant. It was quite large. And have you ever wondered from where the Vandals originally came?
"During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."
We can sit here acting as if none of this ever happened. But in Morocco and other parts of the Maghreb all this is well known. The problem here is that Henn et al don't mention anything on these recorded events. Which seems odd, at least
Ancient History Sourcebook: Procopius of Caesarea: Gaiseric & The Vandal Conquest of North Africa, 406 - 477 CE
"And yet the number of the Vandals and Alans was said in former times, at least, to amount to no more than fifty thousand men. However, after that time by their natural increase among themselves and by associating other barbarians with them they came to be an exceedingly numerous people."
From: Procopius, History of the Wars, 7 vols., trans. H. B. Dewing (Cambridge, Mass., and London: Harvard University Press & Wm. Heinemann, 1914; reprint ed., 1953-54), II.23-73.
I guess from this, I'm supposed to bow down because you are quoting Troll Patrol, who happened to be quoting someone else? LOL, you are truly funny...not in the sense of laughing with you, but at you!
But hey, be my guest: Give me the estimate of Vandal genetic contribution into the Maghrebi gene pool!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
The point being, that pointing to H does not necessarily serve as unequivocal proof of a European origin. This is not to say that elements of Hg H are not due to European gene pool, but that not all the clade is necessarily implicated in such a gene flow. That aside, dating estimates are just that, estimates, and are a subject to the methodology applied and assumptions that went along with that, by the authors. I've noted this time and again, and can't stress it enough!
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I did however note, that a good amount of what is considered "foreign" ancestry, in the maternal gene pool, can likely be attributable to a slavery institution that largely favored females.
yeah? what genetic evidence might that be? what specifically? or are you too scared to mention the haplogroups?
posted
Yeah I'm too scared. Now, how about fetching me the answer to the request around the Vandal ancestry?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
You figured I'm too scared to answer your question, and I agreed, yet you insist that I have to reply to your question; you are not milking time to avoid the request asked of you, are you?
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Yeah I'm too scared. Now, how about fetching me the answer to the request around the Vandal ancestry?
you still have to come up with 'favored females' ancestry
^What is there that he doesn't have yet to produce? He still has to come up with evidence that the ''lopsidedly African'' Y Chromosomal lineages in Berber speakers are reflective of the amount of East African component across their genome. Explorer ran away from obliging to this simple request a staggering 6 times, but, yet, is not slowing down in his wide-eyed obsession with using these Y chromosomal markers as evidence that Berbers' East African component is as large as E-M81 falsely suggests.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: The point being, that pointing to H does not necessarily serve as unequivocal proof of a European origin. This is not to say that elements of Hg H are not due to European gene pool, but that not all the clade is necessarily implicated in such a gene flow. That aside, dating estimates are just that, estimates, and are a subject to the methodology applied and assumptions that went along with that, by the authors. I've noted this time and again, and can't stress it enough!
^These are all manipulative fallacies expected of a delusional charlatan. The facts of the matter are:
1) H1, H3, U51b1 and V were brought there by Europeans and represent European ancestry. Whether some forms were brought to Northern Africa, or differentiated locally thereafter, is of no consequence to what you've trouble emotionally coping with; the fact that their mere existence attests to ancient migration to the Maghreb and the fact that your earlier claims about a lack of ancient geneflow to North Africa are just sick lies. Even now you're lying to yourself by telling yourself that the existence of locally differentiated forms of H, V and U5 somehow contradict the inescapable conclusion that:
quote: the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south
--Ennafaa 2009
2) Estimates are just assumption laden claims, whenever they disagree with you. Altakruri has already noted this inherently pathological condition in your personality where you attempt (but fail) to reduce common academic processes and practices to fringe theories when they've been applied to produce conclusions that you have trouble coping with. Here too, your dumbass is lying your ass off. You've went through all these lengths to show that these H clades evince local differentiation in Northern Africa, but, yet, still delude yourself into thinking that this in and of itself doesn't pre-defeat your pathetic objection that these ancient TMRCA dates have nothing going for them other than that they're assumptions of some biased researcher.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: PS: You keep reminding readers of what a total nutcase you are in your incessant blind and dumb reliance on Kefi et al.'s discredited reports.
What's tha matta, charlatan, does it pain you to see H/CRS and V attested in your precious Taforalt specimen? You might as well brace yourself, filthy pig, there is more where that came from! The lineages cited in the Kefi and Ennafaa reports (H, V, various U clades) have been found along with many other Eurasian lineages in Canary Island aDNA and... drum roll please ... aboriginal Canary Island populations share haplotypes with Eurasian lineages common in Berber speakers. Did the aboriginal Canary Island populations practice medieval Mediterranean slave trade, too?
quote:Table 3 compares haplogroup frequencies between the aborigines and the present day Canarians. By far, haplogroup H/HV/U*/R(-CRS) is the most abundant, encompassing more than 30% of the sample.
^What is there that he doesn't have yet to produce?
Now a lioness minion, are you?
You've figured that if you and lioness can play tag with one another at directing your emotional frustrations--through primitive insults--at me, that this will chase me away or make me give up out of boredom with your respective utter stupidity. Think again!
quote: ^These are all manipulative fallacies expected of a delusional charlatan.
Well it's easy to make dumb toothless accusations. Backing them up is quite another!
quote:The facts of the matter are:
1) H1, H3, U51b1 and V were brought there by Europeans and represent European ancestry.
And you are basing this on what nucleotide characteristics? other than "swenet" the chump says so?
quote: Whether some forms were brought to Northern Africa, or differentiated locally thereafter, is of no consequence to what you've trouble emotionally coping with
I don't know how applying science is "emotionally troubling", but the chump seems to think that's the case. LOL
quote: the fact that their mere existence attests to ancient migration to the Maghreb and the fact that your earlier claims about a lack of ancient geneflow to North Africa are just sick lies.
You call it a "fact", I call it your emotional assumption. Disagree? Explain why the only match mentioned, as your own reference (Ennafaa et al. 2009) notes as per my citation, between the Maghreb and Iberia, is the one that implicates a North African ancestry in Iberia, as opposed to Iberian ancestry in the Maghreb?
The relative affinities among regions are based on subhaplogroup frequencies, which do not take into account differences between haplotypes assorted in the same subgroup, or in haplotypic matches, whose identity is based only on partial HVSI sequences. In addition, it has to be taken into account that half of the H lineages detected in North Africa are not shared with other regions and that this percentage is even greater in the putative source regions of the Near East (70%) and the Iberian Peninsula (76%). These facts point to a higher differentiation among regions and between populations than those observed previously. Indeed, complete or nearly complete sequencing of some apparently identical samples indi- cates that the real genetic heterogeneity among regions is greater than those estimated above (Figure 2)....
In contrast, the two 16145 – 16222 haplotypes sporadically detected in the Iberian Peninsula [[44] and unpublished results] belonged to the North African subgroup as they shared the coding 10257 mutation, in addition to the H1 diagnostic transition 3010, with the totally sequenced Mauritanian sample (Figure 2). It seems that the 10257 transition defines a new subgroup within H1. This fact points to a possible, although not recent, North African demic influence on the Iberian genetic pool.
Also explain why there is virtually no European male correspondence to your supposed "ancient migration" from Europe?
quote: Even now you're lying to yourself by telling yourself that the existence of locally differentiated forms of H, V and U5 somehow contradict the inescapable conclusion that:
quote: the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south
--Ennafaa 2009
Let's test the veracity of your seemingly absent-minded accusation: How have you figured that the H clades that have been implicated in Ennafaa et al.'s report came from the "same refuge area" as the supposedly European U5b1b? Of course, other than just parroting what you were told by someone else, without having any deep insight?
quote: 2) Estimates are just assumption laden claims, whenever they disagree with you.
I've never treated them otherwise. You'll be hard-pressed to find a situation to the contrary, against your wishes.
quote: Altakruri has already noted this inherently pathological condition in your personality where you attempt (but fail) to reduce common academic processes and practices to fringe theories when they've been applied to produce conclusions that you have trouble coping with.
Your way of authenticating your silly accusations is to fall back on someone else's falsified emotional accusations?
quote: Here too, your dumbass is lying your ass off. You've went through all these lengths to show that these H clades evince local differentiation in Northern Africa, but, yet, still delude yourself into thinking that this in and of itself doesn't pre-defeat your pathetic objection that these ancient TMRCA dates have nothing going for them other than that they're assumptions of some biased researcher.
You imagine I'm lying, just as say, you are lying your dumbass off about this so-called "pre-defeat", a nonsensical word?
quote: What's tha matta, charlatan, does it pain you to see H/CRS and V attested in your precious Taforalt specimen? You might as well brace yourself, filthy pig, there is more where that came from! The lineages cited in the Kefi and Ennafaa reports (H, V, various U clades) have been found along with many other Eurasian lineages in Canary Island aDNA and... drum roll please ... aboriginal Canary Island populations share haplotypes with Eurasian lineages common in Berber speakers. Did the aboriginal Canary Island populations practice medieval Mediterranean slave trade, too?
Even with this stupid rambling, Kefi et al.'s report remains discredited, and there is nothing you can do about it other than, well, what crackpots do: continue to rely on discredited information.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: can likely be attributable to .....
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
does not necessarily .....
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: can likely be attributable to .....
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
does not necessarily .....
I take it from your playing with cartoons and incomplete quotes, that you have given up on what was requested of you?
PS: Believe it or not, you and White Nubian have a lot more in common than you are willing to admit. He too plays with superfluous regurgitation of posts filled with incomplete quotes. Yet you want to get away from him? LOL
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: And you are basing on this on what nucleotide characteristics? other than "swenet" the chump says so?
Because there is no credible alternative scenario, which you will confirm in your next post by your glaring inability to present one.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: I don't how applying science is "emotionally troubling"
Of course you do. That's why you have a track record of dodging and running away from my posts, like the little pop-sh!t-and-run-off coward that you are.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Explain why the only match mentioned, as your own reference (Ennafaa et al. 2009) notes as per my citation, between the Maghreb and Iberia, is the one that implicates a North African ancestry in Iberia, as opposed to Iberian ancestry in the Maghreb?
Filthy pig, the low amount of precise matches between Iberia and the Maghreb is state of affairs that poses no problem to my case, as I'm telling your dumbass for the 2nd time that these clades have been locally differentiating for millennia on both sides of the Mediterranean. It does, however, pose a problem to your retarded view that these lineages are candidates for medieval female oriented slave trade.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: How have you figured that U5b1b came with the H clades that have been implicated in Ennafaa et al.'s report came from the "same refuge area" as the supposedly European U5b1b?
Because, piece of pork, this haplogroup is implicated, along with H and V, as having undergone local differentiation in the Maghreb, and because the idea of it coming from that area mirrors what has been said about the lineages implicated in the re-settlement of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian region, for years. Of course, you wouldn't know this, being the charlatan that you are.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: You'll be hard-pressed to find a situation to the contrary, against your wishes.
No, lying piece of pork. What I DO remember, is that you selectively jump on and off the TMRCA bandwagon, like the sly, deceitful pig that you are. For instance, when Casas et al 2006 argued for Upper Palaeolithic migration from North Africa to Iberia, based on some inference that is much weaker than Ennafaa's TMRCAs, you graciously latched on to that bandwagon like a needy leech:
As for Casas et al.’s report, it’s about making sure misinformation about their findings does not go unabated. Their findings point to Upper Paleolithic origins of the European L1b, which is what you seem to be having a lot of trouble coming to terms with. --Explorer
Now what, lying ass filthy pig? Lemme guess. You didn't write that, right?
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: You imagine I'm lying
Filthy pig, are you saying that your earlier claim about the lack of extra-TMRCA ''assumption- based'' evidence for early dates of H, V in Northern Africa (e.g., local differentiation, appearance in Canary Island aDNA, etc) wasn't a lie?
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Even with this stupid rambling, Kefi et al.'s report remains discredited
In your dreams, charlatan. All the sequences have been accounted for in modern Berbers. There is mtDNA continuity from the sampled Taforalt specimen to today, and it pains you to no end. It pains you that these results mirror modern Berber mtDNAs and that this is mathematically impossible if these results are inauthentic, doesn't it, filthy pig?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Because there is no credible alternative scenario, which you will confirm in your next post by your glaring inability to present one.
This is of course a shining expression of a lack of a nucleotide premise for your silly assumptions.
quote:Of course you do. That's why you have a track record of dodging and running away from my posts, like the little pop-sh!t-and-run-off coward that you are.
Apparently your supernatural abilities allow you to see some capacity in me that I possibly can't myself: Why then don't you tell me how my habit of applying science, the very opposite of what you do, can possibly be an "emotionally troubling" experience.
quote:Filthy pig, the low amount of precise matches between Iberia and the Maghreb is state of affairs that poses no problem to my case, as I'm telling your dumbass for the 2nd time that these clades have been locally differentiating for millennia on both sides of the Mediterranean.
Thinking through your numbass again: half of the H lineages detected in North Africa are not shared with other regions and that this percentage is even greater in the putative source regions of the Near East (70%) and the Iberian Peninsula (76%).
At 70%, differentiation; are you off your rocker?
Do you realize how much of a population expansion that would require to generate that kind of a difference? And that's just the tip of the ice: you are apparently unable to confirm this from a nucleotide premise!
Also explain why there is virtually no European male correspondence to your supposed "ancient migration" from Europe?
quote: It does, however, pose a problem to your retarded view that these lineages are candidates for medieval female oriented slave trade.
Why? Never advanced the idea that all H clades must have come from Europe, let alone relegated to European female slavery. You are a knuckleheaded ignoramus, and so naturally, you drew up that clumsy assumption on your own.
quote:Because, piece of pork, this haplogroup is implicated, along with H and V, as having undergone local differentiation in the Maghreb, and because the idea of it coming from that area mirrors what has been said about the lineages implicated in the re-settlement of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian region, for years. Of course, you wouldn't know this, being the charlatan that you are.
You are merely repeating what you were just questioned on, fuckhead. Talk about being stuck on broken record.
Get a dictionary and look up "how", monkey shyt.
quote: No, lying piece of pork. What I DO remember, is that you selectively jump on and off the TMRCA bandwagon, like the sly, deceitful pig that you are. For instance, when Casas et al 2006 argued for Upper Palaeolithic migration from North Africa to Iberia, based on some inference that is much weaker than Ennafaa's TMRCAs, you graciously latched on to that bandwagon like a needy leech:
It's not about rejecting a possibility for an estimation; it's about understanding its assumptive nature and applying it as such, silly chump.
quote:As for Casas et al.’s report, it’s about making sure misinformation about their findings does not go unabated. Their findings point to Upper Paleolithic origins of the European L1b, which is what you seem to be having a lot of trouble coming to terms with. --Explorer
The best you can do is to dig like a madman for a post that was taking you at task for misrepresenting Casas et al.? LOL
quote:Filthy pig, are you saying that your earlier claim about the lack of extra-TMRCA ''assumption- based'' evidence for early dates of H, V in Northern Africa (e.g., local differentiation, appearance in Canary Island aDNA, etc) wasn't a lie?
A lie? I'll be damned if I even know what your thinking-retardant skull is talking about. For instance, I know for a fact that I don't use stupid imaginary words like "extra-TMRCA". Won't be a stretch for everything else in that wimping above to be imaginary as well.
quote:In your dreams, charlatan. All the sequences have been accounted for in modern Berbers.
fuckface, those were Taforalt remains! Already you are unable to distinguish between EpiPaleolithic and the contemporary populations, even though your monkey ass was informed to the contrary multiple times.
You are too nail-headed to realize that it is the nucleotide information in their report itself that has been discredited, which you are calling "accounted for in modern Berbers".
quote:There is mtDNA continuity from the sampled Taforalt specimen to today, and it pains you to no end. It pains you that these results mirror modern Berber mtDNAs and that this is mathematically impossible if these results are inauthentic, doesn't it, filthy pig?
It's simple for me, numbnut: Cite all the nucleotides that Kefi et al. report, and describe the accuracies about them.
Rambling on like a trifling bitch is easy, let's see if putting your money where your big mouth is as well.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This is of course a shining expression of a lack of a nucleotide premise for your silly assumptions.
Silly lying ass pig is now on record lying again that none of my arguments included nucleotide specifics. Not that I needed those; the fairy tale nature of the prospect of these mtDNAs spawning in Northern Africa is self-evident given the absence of any indigenous mtDNA that could have served as a matrix.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Do you realize how much of a population expansion that would require to generate that kind of a difference?
Lying ass pig, since you know so much about the population expansions this would require, and since you're so sure that something out of the ordinary is going on here, prove that the dynamics implicated here are any different in similar cases where a divergence in the last 10kya is established, like say, certain European L types.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Why? Never advanced the idea that all H clades must have come from Europe, let alone relegated to European female slavery.
You're saying that as if you have any optional other groups to assign this fictional narrative. Post these imaginary non H1, H3, V and U5 lineages that are simultaneously non-Near Eastern, along with your sources.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: You are merely repeating what you were just questioned on,
Lying pig, you asked me how I figured it was the case, and I answered your stupid question.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It's not about rejecting a possibility for an estimation; it's about understanding its assumptive nature and applying it as such, silly chump.
Lol, flip flopping slippery snake. How are they merely ''assumptions'' when they don't gel with your case, but ''point to Upper Paleolithic origins of the European L1b'' when they agree with you?
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: For instance, I know for a fact that I don't use stupid imaginary words like "extra-TMRCA".
Never said you did, however, the fact that you're now dancing around the issue like the snake that you are is indicative of the fact that you know you phucked up when you marginalized the independently established old age of the H1 and H3 clades as merely based on ''assumptions''.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: those were Taforalt remains! Already you are unable to distinguish between EpiPaleolithic and the contemporary populations
Lying again, aren't you, filthy pig? How does saying there is continuity between modern Berber speakers and Taforalt remains equal confounding the two?
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It's simple for me, numbnut: Cite all the nucleotides that Kefi et al. report, and describe the accuracies about them.
You are such a phuckin' cretin. Taking about ''describe the accuracies about them''. That has to be the most retarded nondescript question I've ever read. What are Berber shared Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes to the tune of >75%, supposedly obtained from European female oriented slave trade, doing in pre-colonial Canary Island aDNA?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Silly lying ass pig is now on record lying again that none of my arguments included nucleotide specifics.
If I'm "lying" stupid monkey, why then the hold up on your elusive nucleotide-specific premise?
quote: Not that I needed those; the fairy tale nature of the prospect of these mtDNAs spawning in Northern Africa is self-evident given the absence of any indigenous mtDNA that could have served as a matrix.
How would you know what said "matrix" looks like, when you base your thoughtlessness on thin air rather than nucleotide specifics? A fairy tale is making thoughtless wild guesses about ancestry out of anything but a genetic basis.
quote:Lying ass pig, since you know so much about the population expansions this would require, and since you're so sure that something out of the ordinary is going on here, prove that the dynamics implicated here are any different in similar cases where a divergence in the last 10kya is established, like say, certain European L types.
That's just it, chump: I can't think of any case in an mtDNA parent-offspring scenario where this much discordance, as that inferred between Maghrebi and Iberian sub-clades and haplogroups, is attained in that time span, while on the other hand, something like this was allegedly happening:
In contrast, the two 16145 – 16222 haplotypes sporadically detected in the Iberian Peninsula [[44] and unpublished results] belonged to the North African subgroup as they shared the coding 10257 mutation, in addition to the H1 diagnostic transition 3010, with the totally sequenced Mauritanian sample (Figure 2). It seems that the 10257 transition defines a new subgroup within H1. This fact points to a possible, although not recent, North African demic influence on the Iberian genetic pool.
Can you think of African-sourced European L clades that fit the bill?
While at it, get your numbnut to take a crack at filling me on why some 10kya "ancient migration" from Europe, of the magnitude that would supposedly bring H,V,U5 et al (essentially anything that is "Eurasian" to you) clades, lacks a male correspondence?
quote: You're saying that as if you have any optional other groups to assign this fictional narrative. Post these imaginary non H1, H3, V and U5 lineages that are simultaneously non-Near Eastern, along with your sources.
You are right, these "non H1, H3, V and U5" would be imaginary, born out of your imagination. Many clades of Europe (as Y-DNA also shows) rarely originate in Europe, including these very clades you name here, but of course that would surprise any slave-minded basket case like you.
quote:]Lying pig, you asked me how I figured it was the case, and I answered your stupid question.
By showing me that you have figured it out of a lack of thinking, since you merely repeated what was questioned only moments ago?
quote:Lol, flip flopping slippery snake. How are they merely ''assumptions'' when they don't gel with your case, but ''point to Upper Paleolithic origins of the European L1b'' when they agree with you?
Get a new line; incomplete quotation directed at refuting your bungled understanding of Casas et al is old and tired, and cannot demonstrate inconsistency in my stance on the subjective component of age simulations any more than when it was first used. By contrast, like the fuckheaded sucker you are, you actually believed/believe in the idea that solid dates could accurately be attained from these simulations.
quote:Never said you did, however, the fact that you're now dancing around the issue like the snake that you are is indicative of the fact that you know you phucked up when you marginalized the independently established old age of the H1 and H3 clades as merely based on ''assumptions''.
Dancing around "the issue" that only makes about as much sense (per your thinking-retardant skull) as your "extra-TMRCA"? LOL
quote:Lying again, aren't you, filthy pig? How does saying there is continuity between modern Berber speakers and Taforalt remains equal confounding the two?
There cannot be "continuity" between illusionary DNA and real DNA, you stupid chump.
quote:You are such a phuckin' cretin. Taking about ''describe the accuracies about them''. That has to be the most retarded nondescript question I've ever read.
Then you must not have compared this imagined "retardation" against your silly usage of a discredited material as supporting evidence. That's because you are that retarded (you are too retarded to know what is actually retarded).
quote: What are Berber shared Eurasian mtDNA haplotypes to the tune of >75%, supposedly obtained from European female oriented slave trade, doing in pre-colonial Canary Island aDNA?
Had you said that this is the "most retarded nondescript question I've ever read" instead of its irrelevant application above, then you would have been on firm grounding, and established that you are capable of a glimmer of critical thinking. Be a good little puppy, and dig up what I noted about H clades for instance, only moments ago.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
You can tell from the multiple bombardment of oversized pics. As if such will make the info go away. 
Printer-friendly view of this topic