Remember the first modern European to be civilized, somewhat, were the Myceneans, after the sacking and revolt in Crete.
Geography correlates. Description checks out, but date don't align.
What about Cucuteni-Trypillian culture? (c. 4800 to 3000 B.C.)
Yes, what about it? Elaborate please, thank you.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Remember the first modern European to be civilized, somewhat, were the Myceneans, after the sacking and revolt in Crete.
Geography correlates. Description checks out, but date don't align.
What's your definition of modern and of civilization?
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Granted. I know when I am out of my league. So, I know nada about Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.
However, yes, civilization is subjective. That is why I used the term "somewhat".
Civilization, to me,
1. Has a means of reliable sustenance ie agriculture.
2. Towns, Arts, Tradesmen, class structure.
3. Maritime fleets, Soldier etc.
600miles into inner Africa is NOT Demic diffusion. That looks more like expedition and exploration. OR!! they are locals.
That is why I am questioning the date and location. 2500BCE would put Europeans on par with AE...which we know is far from the truth.
My knee jerk reaction response would be...FAKE. But the location seems about right. My second reaction is - are we sure they are Europeans. You confirmed that by the apparent clothing.
Next up is date.
Another point of view was ... Saharan view of Death. ie white. But the clothing does not support that view.
@ Swenet - I will look it up.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Civilization, to me,
1. Has a means of reliable sustenance ie agriculture. 2. Towns, Arts, Tradesmen, class structure. 3. Maritime fleets, Soldier etc.
600miles into inner Africa is NOT Demic diffusion. That looks more like expedition and exploration. OR!! they are locals.
That is why I am questioning the date and location. 2500BCE would put Europeans on par with AE...which we know is far from the truth.
My knee jerk reaction response would be...FAKE. But the location seems about right. My second reaction is - are we sure they are Europeans. You confirmed that by the apparent clothing.
Next up is date.
Another point of view was ... Saharan view of Death. ie white. But the clothing does not support that view.
There are some fairly extensive amateur photos of Tassili including the Akakus out there but so far none as those two Tin Anneuin school men.
The Tin Anneuin school paintings have this theme: * tall and slender figures painted in white * always in profile * often white feathers in hair * usually wearing a neck clasped ocher colored cape * often handling throw-stick baton, spear, or a small bow * short sword with scabbard not at the waist but the neck and chest * ornaments represented by ocher band around the forehead and ankles * almost always seen standing or walking single file * never in any other action * never involved in everyday life * Women never portrayed.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Definitely foreigners. Date? Iron age. Why? Metal swords.
Most likely Roman expedition.
Question: are there similar depictions, in caves, on the other side of the sea? Brown or chalk white?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT
"tall and slender figures painted ".
Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.
This is one of the most popular fallacy.
Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please
BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would not say "huge" across the board. The word huge is misleading. Some whites may have more body mass- one pattern of cold (or diet) adaptation but that does not mean they are "huge". Some Bantu types are as big as any European. And of course some elongated African groups on the average surpass Europeans in height.
And of course, some black folk have increased body mass due to dietary patterns in the Nile Valley, not the reputed invasions of Europeans or "Middle Easterners." Just pointing that out to guard against various distortions some Eurofools make about tropical African diversity.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
In the late nineteenth century, the Netherlands was a land renowned for its short population, but today its population is among the world's tallest with young men averaging 1.83 m (6 ft 0 in) tall. The tallest average in Europe is in the Dinaric Alps, with young men averaging 1.86 m (6 ft 1 in), and young women averaging 1.71 m (5 ft 7 in).[24]
In the South Pacific the height of the Samoan and Tongan populations have long been known for their great size and stature. Early descriptions from European explorers of these Polynesians, speak of their great size and physiques. In 2009 a survey by the University of Hawaii found that both islands had males averaging 1.8034 m (5 ft 11 in) tall, while immigrants descending from both nations equalled that of Dinarians and Dutch at 1.857 m (6 ft 1 in) tall.[citation needed] The reasons for this is believed that the Polynesians of Samoa and Tonga are truly genetically the largest people in the world. This is based on the fact that, though the environmental and dietary factors contribute to Dinarian and Dutch heights, this is not the case for the height of peoples of Samoan and Tongan heritage. This makes them one of the tallest peoples in the world and history, as the 9000 year old skeleton of the Kennewick man (also of Polynesian origin) was 1.778 m (5 ft 10 in) in height. The suspected reason for their great stature is due to a long practices of eugenics by selecting tall strong warriors as mates. Sālote Mafile‘o Pilolevu Tupou III the late former queen of Tonga was 1.905 m (6 ft 3 in) and Tui Manuʻa Elisala the king of the Samoan island of Manu'a was recorded as being 1.9812 m (6 ft 6 in) in height. Valerie Adams (formerly known as Valerie Vili); a reigning shot putter in women's Olympic champion and three-time World champion, two-time Commonwealth and World Indoor champion is 1.96 m (6 ft 5 in) in height.
Genetic potential and a number of hormones, minus illness, is a basic determinant for height. Diet only influences growth in malnourished children who experience delayed development and short stature. There is no evidence that enriching a diet with (or avoiding) a particular food will alter the height one is otherwise destined to reach.
The tallest living man is Sultan Kösen of Turkey, at 2.51 m (8 ft 3 in). The tallest man in modern history was Robert Pershing Wadlow (1918–1940), from Illinois, in the United States, who was 2.72 m (8 ft 11 in) at the time of his death. The tallest female in medical history was Zeng Jinlian of Hunan, China, who stood 2.48 m (8 ft 1 1⁄2 in) when she died at the age of 17. The shortest adult human on record is Chandra Bahadur Dangi of Nepal at 0.546 m (1 ft 9 1⁄2 in).
__________________________________________
USAToday:
In the last 150 years, the Dutch have become the tallest people on Earth — and experts say they're still getting bigger. It is a tale of a nation's health and wealth.
With their protein-rich diet and a national health service that pampers infants, the Dutch are standing taller than ever. The average Dutchman stands just over 6 feet, while women average nearly 5-foot-7.
The Dutch were not noted for their height until recently. It was only in the 1950s that they passed the Americans, who stood tallest for most of the last 200 years, said John Komlos, a leading expert on the subject who is professor of economic history at the University of Munich in Germany. He said the United States has now fallen behind Denmark. In 1848, one man out of four was rejected by the Dutch military because he was shorter than 5-foot-2. Today, fewer than one in 1,000 is that short.
George Maat, an anthropologist at Leiden University Medical Center, cites a study done in 1861 correlating the height of conscripts to the availability and price of rye, then the main food crop. One year after a poor crop, the number of men rejected as too short shot up. Height appears to come naturally with the territory. Two thousand years ago, the men of the Low Countries stood about 5-foot-9 — tall for the age — and were enlisted as guards for the Roman emperor, Maat said.
Average heights declined over the next 1,800 years as food supply failed to keep pace with population growth and people moved into disease-ridden cities, said Maat. He spoke from his office, cluttered with leg bones and skulls, overlooking a grassy quadrangle that is the burial site of thousands killed by plague in 1635.
Even during the 17th century, when Amsterdam was the world's richest city, wealth was concentrated in the hands of a few merchants and average height did not increase.
It took until World War I for the Dutch to regain the 4 inches they lost over two millennia.
As lifestyles improve, Maat said the average height of a Dutch man could reach 6-foot-3 within 50 years. The influx of immigrants from North Africa may slow the growth rate, but their descendants could catch up in a few generations.
But wealth doesn't explain everything. Scandinavians, who are among the world's tallest people at 6 feet, are not getting taller on average, apparently hitting their genetic glass ceiling.
"With better food, Pygmies will increase in height, but you will never make Dutchmen out of them. It's just not there in the genes," Maat said.
"Since we are still on the move, we don't know where it's going to end," he said. "It's upward, yes, but how far upward we don't know."
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
The statistics lists the entire Dutch nation, but certain African tribes WITHIN a nation like the Masai are taller on average than the Dutch or Scandinavians. The Dutch average of 6 feet is surpassed by the Masai and other specific East African groups WITHIN individual nations. Some books list the Tutsi as the tallest..
"who physically resemble southern Europeans and Arabs of the Middle East, Africa is the home both of Pygmies, who inhabit the Congo rain forest as hunters and gatherers, and of the tallest people known in the world, the Masai"
-William Hardy McNeill - 1999 -A world history - Page 472
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: The statistics lists the entire Dutch nation, but certain African tribes WITHIN a nation like the Masai are taller on average than the Dutch or Scandinavians. The Dutch average of 6 feet is surpassed by the Masai and other specific East African groups WITHIN individual nations. Some books list the Tutsi as the tallest..
"who physically resemble southern Europeans and Arabs of the Middle East, Africa is the home both of Pygmies, who inhabit the Congo rain forest as hunters and gatherers, and of the tallest people known in the world, the Masai"
-William Hardy McNeill - 1999 -A world history - Page 472
On average Africans are shorter than Europeans . On the Masaai I think the above McNeill quote may be inaccurate and no average height number is given.
The average Dutch male is 6'1'
Campbell et al. (2006) recorded measurements of 172.0 cm (5.64 ft) in a sample of agricultural Turkana in northern Kenya, 174.9 cm (5.73 ft) in pastoral Turkana.
Hiernaux similarly listed a height of 172.7 cm (5.67 ft) for Maasai in southern Kenya,
B. Campbell, P. Leslie, K. Campbell: Age-related Changes in Testosterone and SHBG among Turkana Males. American Journal of Human Biology, 1/2006, p. 71-82
a b Jean Hiernaux, The People of Africa, (Scribners: 1975), pp.142-143 & 147.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: You know explorer brings up a good point, that is say me, Al and Swenet are correct in that the Genetic heritage of the Coastal N. African population is due to a long drawn out process rather than recent slave markets, the question becomes..why are European/Eurasian male DNA not reflected? Good question.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Contemporary Maghreb populations essentially lack the common European-specific NRY markers, in contrast to the often made reference to lopsided southwest European mtDNA input. This is the sort of pattern one would expect of...
1) ...
2) a situation wherein the male segments of the source population of the emigrant community were effectively exterminated, leaving the female counterparts to become available to the exterminators, who would obviously have to be male in sex orientation.
Or yet...
3)...
I never mentioned the "extermination" factor which may have been shunting off males with no previous North African maternity.
Knowing the Kikuyu and Maasai conducted death raids against each other saving alive and taking only younger females and the lack of nrY hgs expected by South Europe whole family settlers (unless hidden in E-M78 or whatever) and rock art of chalk white men with European armaments but never with women or in family scenes makes one wonder.
Nicky: Gottdamn Libyans welcomed us in, adapted our weapons, stole our wimmens and kicked us out. Guido: Aw shut your ass up and keep a steppin'! Effin' desert's got plenty hot air without addin' yours. Nicky: Hey! Where's Stavros? STAVROS...STAVROS...
All populations in North Africa have a long drawn out genetic history. LOL! What we are talking about here is whether or not the genetic information supports the idea that coastal North Africa was primarily populated by NON Africans for many thousands of years as opposed to being primarily populated by black Africans for most of that time with NON African genes only becoming predominant in the last few thousand years.
That is why I hate these over ambiguous studies which are basically trying to say that North Africa was always NON Black or that the Berber language is synonymous with NON black arrivals into North Africa which is absolutely not the case.
Also keep in mind that Tunisia is the location of ancient Carthage which was completely destroyed and repopulated by Romans. So you cannot expect to find an accurate reflection of ancient population structure among modern populations when the ancient populations were relatively small and easily affected by outside influence.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT
"tall and slender figures painted ".
Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.
This is one of the most popular fallacy.
Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please
BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!
Both you and Zaharan have a point. On the other hand, its also true that slender figures appear in prehistoric European art. ~5k is not an inconsistent date for potentially new Eurasian entries of actual whites in NA, who may or may not have left traces in contemporary Africans.
If these slender white figures represent folks with actual white skin, new entries into North Africa would have to be taken into account since the oldest extant Haplogroups in Northern Africa (M1 and U6) push back Ibero-Maurusian populations from their burial/culture inferred appearance (~20kya) to at least ~30kya. Judging by the state of affairs of U6 and M1, and the coalescence age of certain portions of Berber associated autosomal SNPs, Ibero-Maurusians would likely have spent this interval (10ky) in Northern Africa, before they finally showed themselves in the archaeological record as what we now call 'Ibero-Maurusian'. This would put them outside the reach of this West Eurasian light skin mutation event (~20kya), and make them unlikely candidates for bringing light skin in Northern Africa. Damn, looks like ''recent slave trade'' fairytale pushing Afronuts have even more to worry about than only Ibero-Maurusians being Eurasians in pre slave trade eras.
On another note, old work from Lernia and others mention ~5ky old rock art in Western Libya in tandem with skeletal remains, with figures that are phenotypically different from Uan Muhuggiag and the type(s) Uan can be imagined to have belonged to. Predynastic Palettes also show physiques associated with regions outside of Kmt that are drastically different relative to the black looking folk depicted on them.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
Also keep in mind that Tunisia is the location of ancient Carthage which was completely destroyed and repopulated by Romans. So you cannot expect to find an accurate reflection of ancient population structure among modern populations when the ancient populations were relatively small and easily affected by outside influence. [/QB]
If you went back to Carthage at it's height it had a half a million people and were primarily Phoenicians from what is now Lebanon
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Also keep in mind that Tunisia is the location of ancient Carthage which was completely destroyed and repopulated by Romans. So you cannot expect to find an accurate reflection of ancient population structure among modern populations when the ancient populations were relatively small and easily affected by outside influence.
If you went back to Carthage at it's height it had a half a million people and were primarily Phoenicians from what is now Lebanon [/QB]
But today's Lebanese are mostly Turk immigrants from the Caucasus region being Armenia, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, etc. They came durning the reign of the Seljuks and Ottoman Turks who settled millions of their brethrens over the course of 400 years in what is today called middle east region including Lebanon.
Europeans settlers from France and Italy joined in the colonial era.
Skunt, Lebanon today is a land conquered and settled by albino colonialist, just like Americas...
Posts: 7419 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT
"tall and slender figures painted ".
Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.
This is one of the most popular fallacy.
Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please
BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!
The figures on the above rock art could be stylized so that their proportions were not realistic. The figures could be people of Canaanite descent rather than Europeans.
Looking at the following Canaanite Phoenician descended Libyans and other ethnic groups depicted by the Egyptians they are all shown with similar proportion
Libu Libyans, Book of Gates. Tomb of Rameses III
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why do you say Ramesside era generically labeled Temehu are Canaanite Phoenicians instead of natives?
Please provide support such as migration dates and locations of established colonies and none of the sophistric reasoning or intuitive guesswork, thank you.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
Jabbaren in the Tassili (600 miles inland from Tunisia/Libya Mediterranean coast), dating to c. 2500 BCE per Malika Hachid (link).
She is perhaps 1000 years too early?
I believe the date is probably 2500 years too early.
The picture above is of a Roman soldier marching. It is not ancient.
This is nothing but a Roman soldier note the crest on the helmet, and the shield carried on the back along with the cloak/toga. The Roman soldier appears to be marching doubletime.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you Dr. Winters. That was my guess. ....without in depth knowledge of Roman soldiers. Obviously it is post Iron Age. See what a little common sense can do.
Btw - Henn made it clear that the Berbers are NOT really admixed with modern Europeans. To Lions point.
Obviously there is a play on words. It was a non-admixed group that reentered Africa. So don't get bent out of shape. That is why they carry African lineage.
Much to do about nothing!!!!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
You think alTakruti's description of the general context the figures occur in, are consistent with Romans?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The Tin Anneuin school paintings have this theme:
* tall and slender figures painted in white * always in profile * often white feathers in hair * usually wearing a neck clasped ocher colored cape * often handling throw-stick baton, spear, or a small bow * short sword with scabbard not at the waist but the neck and chest * ornaments represented by ocher band around the forehead and ankles * almost always seen standing or walking single file * never in any other action * never involved in everyday life * Women never portrayed.
posted
I think Clyde's Roman theory is good. Tropically proportioned Romans but a lot of the clothing is matching
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just a FYI to all. Europeans are cold adapted. They are NOT
"tall and slender figures painted ".
Also Europeans are no taller than Africans and they are not slender. A few slender TV personalities does not makes them as a group , slender.
This is one of the most popular fallacy.
Anyone who been around white people know they are huge. Big thighs, huge calves, short extremeties, huge trunk, big arms and forearm, broad flat asses, hairy...so please
BTW - this is a scientific fact!!!!
lioness: The figures on the above rock art could be stylized so that their proportions were not realistic. The figures could be people of Canaanite descent rather than Europeans.
Looking at the following Canaanite Phoenician descended Libyans and other ethnic groups depicted by the Egyptians they are all shown with similar proportion
Libu Libyans, Book of Gates. Tomb of Rameses III
I retract "Canaanite Phoenician descended Libyans"
That applies to the much later Cartheginians around 800 BC not Ramesses III period (1186–1155 BC)
However who are these Libyans above? Were they indignous Africans? Didn't Nicky aka alTakruri say: " Gottdamn Libyans welcomed us in, adapted our weapons, stole our wimmens and kicked us out..where's Stavros? " I think they probably weren't, what do you think? The Phoenicians were an enterprising maritime trading culture that spread across the Mediterranean from 1550 BC to 300 BC. The ancient Libyans of the type pictured may have been Phoenician or 'Sea people' of some sort. They could have been people who migrated into North Africa slowly over a long period of time rather than later larger migrations leading up to Carthage. Unlike Europeans Near Easterners are xxyman approved In addition to the above pale and often yellowish toned Libyans thers is also another type of Libyan you will see in the Egyptian art as more reddish. Both skin tones can be found in the Levant and North Africa
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
There was never a significant barrier between Africa and Southern Europe. No matter how much these Euronuts fantasize and make up shyte about that, applying their modern sociopolitical boundaries and classification. Most migration was one way. Why?. The Saharan population was technologically more advanced for 40,000yrs. It is only within the last 600yrs modern Europeans over took Africans.
1.0 RECONSTRUCTING ANCIENT MITOCHONDRIAL DNA LINKS BETWEEN AFRICA AND EUROPE. Cerezo M, Achilli A, Olivieri A, Perego UA, Gómez-Carballa A, Brisighelli F, Lancioni H, Woodward SR, López-Soto M, Carracedo A, Capelli C, Torroni A, Salas A. 8.1.1 Source Unidade de Xenética, Departamento de Anatomía Patolóxica e Ciencias Forenses, and Instituto de Ciencias Forenses, Facultade de Medicina, Universidad de Santiago de Compostela, Santiago de Compostela, Galicia, Spain. 8.1.2 Abstract Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages of macro-haplogroup L (excluding the derived L3 branches M and N) represent the majority of the typical sub-Saharan mtDNA variability. In Europe, these mtDNAs account for <1% of the total but, when analyzed at the level of control region, they show no signals of having evolved within the European continent, an observation that is compatible with a recent arrival from the African continent. To further evaluate this issue, we analyzed 69 mitochondrial genomes belonging to various L sublineages from a wide range of European populations. Phylogeographic analyses showed that ~65% of the European L lineages most likely arrived in rather recent historical times, including the Romanization period, the Arab conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, and during the period of the Atlantic slave trade. However, the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe as early as 11,000 yr ago.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yes. This was an educated guess by me based upon what Altk posted. Notably - because of the sword. Dr. Winters just substantiated this clearly showing these are Roman soldiers. Therefore the dating may really be around 200BCE-300AD. It is no where near 2500BCE which never could be corroborated.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: You think alTakruti's description of the general context the figures occur in, are consistent with Romans?
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The Tin Anneuin school paintings have this theme:
* tall and slender figures painted in white * always in profile * often white feathers in hair * usually wearing a neck clasped ocher colored cape * often handling throw-stick baton, spear, or a small bow * short sword with scabbard not at the waist but the neck and chest * ornaments represented by ocher band around the forehead and ankles * almost always seen standing or walking single file * never in any other action * never involved in everyday life * Women never portrayed.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The Saharan population was technologically more advanced for 40,000yrs. It is only within the last 600yrs modern Europeans over took Africans.
what was advanced about Saharans 40,000, 30,000, or 20,000 years ago?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
xxyman do you believe that the ancestors of white Europeans were black or do you not believe in that evolution stuff?
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
On average Africans are shorter than Europeans
This may well be due to nutrition and other factors, but tropical African sub-populations are the tallest people in the world nevertheless.
European average height is about 65 inches even when adding an extra 3 percent for further growth after age 18 as scholars note:
"it is reasonable to add about 3 percent for further growth after age 18, giving an estimated minimum for mean final height of European national populations of about 165cm (65 in)."
and [b]tropical African growth trends are more unless hindered by enviro factors "..but there seems to be a consistent pattern in all three groups.. Children of African stock are more advanced in growth at all ages than European children unless their growth has been restricted by environmental factors, and it therefore seems likely that infection would have been the main factor responsible for this slowing down in height growth.."
--Floud et al 1990 Health, Health and History
Dutch height is comparatively recent due to health care and nutrition. quote: "the Dutch are not tall because they need extra height to survive the cold.. they didn't start getting tall until about 150 years ago, so their height can't possibly be an evolutionary adaptation... Dutch height is a tribute to their health care and social services systems.." --The New Yorker 80 I 1-9 2004.
Tropical African height is consistently more over human history going back to ancient Turkana boy : "At eight years old, Turkana Boy was already five feet three inches tall. If he had lived to adulthood, he would have stood more than six feet tall. People who live in hot climates tend to be tall like Turkana Boy. Over generations, tallness evolved in populations living in hot climates because a long body exposes a lot of skin to the air, making it easy to cool off." -- Peter Robertshaw, Jill Rubalcaba 2005 The Early Human World. Oxford University PRess.
Small sample sizes do not show the full range of African heights as the scientific literature notes: qu0te- "The Turkana data are rather uneven probably due to small sample sizes." --Worldwide Variation in Human Growth. 1991. Phyllis B. Eveleth, James M. Tanner
In any event, historical data shows certain African groups WITHIN nations are the tallest people in the world.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xxyman do you believe that the ancestors of white Europeans were black or do you not believe in that evolution stuff?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: What’s this? Small Talk?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: xxyman do you believe that the ancestors of white Europeans were black or do you not believe in that evolution stuff?
^^^^ avoidance.
I had discovered early on certain ES members secretly didn't believe in evolution. You may not go that far but I sense you are a closeted multi-regionalist
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I dunno. This Roman soldier hypothesis recalls days of yore when a lost in Sahara Roman legion supposedly spawned the Fulani. Anyway the art style obviously predates the crude Roman era contemporaneous "Libyan Warrior" etchings when the art of painting, even crudely, was long lost along with the people skilled enough to produce them.
1200-800BCE seems the Final Bovidian to first Horse period timeframe where the two "white" guys (TWG) belong. Zooming (CTRL +) the image faces they look orthoganous sharp nosed with a goatee.
Ethno-historians call them paleo-Berbers all in a class of Tassili and Akakus prehistoric paintings at Iheren-Tahilahi as well as Tin Anneuin, sites of whites/near whites with throw-sticks/batons, sheep and goats in distinction to bows and cattle of earlier and darker Saharans.
Littoral Maghreb -- Morocco to Tunisia -- was a trading partner with Iberian and Italian peninsula and island South Europeans as evidenced by cardial pottery, obsidian, beakers, and other commodities going back to the Neolithic. Further east, Libya was in touch with Aegeans at least since Minoan times per archeaology (earlier if admitting Greek myth).
Right now all I can say about the TWG (as fair as for other people/painting correlations) is they're itinerant familyless whites in the central Sahara but originating northward African admixed with Mediterranean island or Mediterranean north shores peoples.
My view is they may be Libyan culture adapted foreign male settlers turned out into the desert by, in the ancient Greek sense, Libyans of native matrilineal ties. They could just as well be chiefs and dignataries making a round from encampment to encampment in a show of authority.
To see a diagnostic useful quantity of these particular Saharan paintings perusal of Muzzolini's Sahariens and Hachid's Berberes is a must.
There's nothing different in the profile of the various related Tassili Akakus W/NWs than ancient Tamehu or todays Berber speaking Mauritanian Zenaga.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
although I'm not sure about Libyan footwear, this looks like the traps of a Roman sandal. Also Libyans typically have two feathers going off on two angles,
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Granted, whereas Roman legionaires have no headgear as depicted.
The suggested timeframe is Sea Peoples and a few centuries after.
But as noted by trade they weren't the only nor the first foreign whites or near whites maintaining a supra-Saharan presence.
Introduction of Romanesque sandals may be due to Chalcolithic Tunisian-Italian trade with pre-Roman peoples of the peninsula or of native design and manufacture. Sandal making is ubiquitous but yes regional styles should vary and could be an ethnic cue.
I can't rule out any of the prpositions though the Roman legion era seems anachronistic to me. Remember Mererye fled from the Egyptian forces leaving his sandals in haste behind him and Egyptian forces captured 9111 copper swords from the Meshwesh, the westernmost "Eastern Libyans".
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged |
ROgers and Bainbridge did for their sample in 1963, but scholars Eveleth and Tanner using a broader dataset, and Floud et al, report measurements that place the Dinka taller than the Dutch. And these measurements increase in favorable health and nutritional conditions which are much improved for the Dinka and other Africans overall since 1963. Just as the Dutch are not sitting still neither are the Dinka and other Africans.
^ D. F. Roberts, D. R. Bainbridge: Nilotic physique. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 1963, p. 341-370.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
although I'm not sure about Libyan footwear, this looks like the traps of a Roman sandal. Also Libyans typically have two feathers going off on two angles,
LMAO. Reaching is your full time profession, isn't it? We're now dating rock art using trivial, non-specific, sandal straps? SMH.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^^ wrong, they are specific sandal straps
and they have a cloak like Romans and a plume
I don't know if it's Roman for sure but I am following Clyde's teachings
^^^^ what's going on here ?
The dating of this rock art is hotly debated and cannot be tested easily. The last camel period is 200 BC to present because nobody knows when it stopped Other books say the camel periods starts 100 Bc some say "after 1200 BC"
The name "camel" comes from Arabic ǧml, meaning "beauty" The Persian invasion of Egypt under Cambyses in 525 BC introduced domesticated camels to the area. The Persian camels, however, were not particularly suited to trading or travel over the Sahara; rare journeys made across the desert were made on chariots pulled by horses. The dromedaries (one hump Arabian camel) became common after the Islamic conquest of North Africa.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Anthropometric measurements of the Nilotic tribes in a refugee camp. Chali D. Source Yekatit 12 Hospital, Addis Abeba, Ethiopia.
Abstract The heights and weights of 2,233 randomly selected adult Nilotic immigrants from Southern Sudan (50.8% Dinkas, 43.8% Nuers, 3.4% Anuaks and 2.0% Shilluks) that have settled in Itang, Southwestern Ethiopia were measured. The mean height, weight and body mass index [BMI = weight(kg)/the square of height(m2)] of men (N = 1,1618) were 175.9 + 9 cm) (+/- SD), 59.7 +/- 8 kg, and 19.4 +/- 2, respectively, and those of women (N = 615) were 169.0 +/- 7 cm, 54.0 +/- 8 kg, and 19.1 +/- 3, respectively. The mean height of Dinka men (176.4 +/- 9 cm) and Nuer men (175.7 +/- 9 cm) were significantly higher than that of Anuak men (171.7 +/- 8 cm) and Shilluk men (172.6 +/- 6.1 cm). The Nuer women's mean height, weight and BMI were significantly lower than those of the other tribes'. This study confirms that the Nilotics in Southern Sudan have slender bodies and are amongst the tallest in the world, and may attain greater height if priviledged with favourable environmental conditions during early childhood and adolescence, allowing full expression of the genetic material.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
Hoe lang is Nederland nog het langste volk ter wereld?
quote: Nederlanders zijn het langste volk ter wereld, maar hoe lang nog? Uit onderzoek blijkt dat de gemiddelde lengte van Nederlanders de laatste 13 jaar niet is toegenomen en dat is uitzonderlijk. De afgelopen 160 jaar is dit niet eerder gebeurd.
De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.
Hoger opgeleiden zijn gemiddeld langer dan lager opgeleiden. Het verschil tussen het laagste en hoogste opleidingsniveau bedraagt bijna 7 cm. Dat is voor een deel te verklaren doordat mannen en jongeren in het algemeen beter opgeleid zijn dan vrouwen en ouderen. Als daarmee rekening wordt gehouden, verschillen de laagst en hoogst opgeleiden nog altijd 3 cm in lichaamslengte.
Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.
Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar stedelijkheid woongemeente, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
Overgewicht
In het algemeen worden onder- en overgewicht uitgedrukt met de Quetelet Index (QI). Vier van de tien volwassen Nederlanders hebben een QI van 25 of hoger en zijn dus te zwaar. Van ernstig overgewicht – uitgedrukt met een QI van 30 of meer – heeft 8% last.
Met name in de leeftijdsgroep 65-74 jaar is het percentage personen met overgewicht relatief hoog. Van deze ouderen heeft 57% een QI van 25 of meer.
Sedert 1981 is het percentage volwassenen met ernstig overgewicht – dus een QI van 30 of meer – met gemiddeld 0,2 procentpunt per jaar gestegen.
In het algemeen hebben naar verhouding meer lager dan hoger opgeleiden last van (ernstig) overgewicht.
Overgewicht van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
In niet stedelijke gebieden is het percentage personen dat met overgewicht te kampen heeft, zo’n 5 procentpunten hoger dan in de zeer sterk stedelijke. Het percentage personen dat last heeft van ernstig overgewicht is daarentegen vrijwel gelijk.
Overgewicht van Nederlanders naar stedelijkheid woongemeente, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
posted
Foundation of Human Culture - Human Morphological Variation
quote:Africans include both the worlds tallest (if not exactly the largest) people and the world's smallest people. The Nuer, Masai, Watusi, and similar peoples of East Central Africa are the world's tallest and among the worlds largest.
A controversial film about the rock art of the Sahara Desert opened the Icronos International Archaeology Film Festival of Bordeaux on 24 October last year. Made by Bristol anthropologist, Dr Jeremy Keenan, The Lesser Gods is a powerful documentary about the expedition of French archaeologist Henry Lhote to the Tassili-n-Ajjer mountains of southern Algeria. The new film, which includes footage from the original expedition in 1956, shows that several of the discoveries were actually fraudulent, and that the rock art is much less spectacular than Lhote claimed at the time.
More grounded criticism of Lhote has been for his research techniques. The Journal of North African Studies – an academic periodical affiliated with the University of East Anglia’s Saharan Studies Programme – alleges that many of Lhote’s findings “were misleading,” that “a number of the paintings were faked”, and that “the copying process was fraught with errors.”
posted
Lioness, dumbass, you're reaching. The depicted feather in hair by itself has much more affinity with ancient Egyptian, and, especially, ancient Nubian and Libyan customs. This observation is strengthened by their sharing of a similar looking headband.
As for the sandals, again, you're reaching. There is nothing specific about the sandal straps under discussion. Sandal with straps above the ankle are as much an innovation as a boot is relative to a shoe. Its an inevitable innovation that no doubt was spread all across the Mediterranean and adjacent areas (as seen in Egyptian depictions of Minoans, or Assyrians in their own artwork), and could have easily been invented independently many times.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
@ TP, great lead was usual!!. That was my knee jerk reaction.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Apparently African /Berber MTDNA H1 is not the same was European!!!! That female European slave thing may be all nonsense!!! Berbers did NOT get their H1 from Eurasia! Will post study soon.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Lioness, dumbass, you're reaching. The depicted feather in hair by itself has much more affinity with ancient Egyptian, and, especially, ancient Nubian and Libyan customs. This observation is strengthened by their sharing of a similar looking headband.
As for the sandals, again, you're reaching. There is nothing specific about the sandal straps under discussion. Sandal with straps above the ankle are as much an innovation as a boot is relative to a shoe. Its an inevitable innovation that no doubt was spread all across the Mediterranean and adjacent areas (as seen in Egyptian depictions of Minoans, or Assyrians in their own artwork), and could have easily been invented independently many times.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html
De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.
maar ook gezegd:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html
Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.
groot verschil
zoals het feit dat de Dinka en de Maasai zijn subpopulaties van Soedan de Nederlanders slechts twee provincies van Nederland en het landelijke Nederlanders zijn een sub bevolking alle Nederlanders met verschillen zo veel als 2 inch
Hier is de beste statistieken bron voor Nederland, hoewel het nog steeds niet de landelijke Nederlandse specifiek
quote:Swenet, show an adult MALE egyptian with a feather and headband
Now what, liarness? BTW, does your challenge to me forebode that you'll do the same now from your end, i.e., posting Roman instances of headbands tied at the back of the head, complemented with a feather? Or is this yet another unilateral demand for proof, to get people to disprove a claim you've had no qualms with assuming a priori, like the presumptuous airhead that you are?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html
De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.
maar ook gezegd:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/962463/nederlanders-langste-mensen-ter-wereld.html
Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.
groot verschil
zoals het feit dat de Dinka en de Maasai zijn subpopulaties van Soedan de Nederlanders slechts twee provincies van Nederland en het landelijke Nederlanders zijn een sub bevolking alle Nederlanders met verschillen zo veel als 2 inch
Hier is de beste statistieken bron voor Nederland, hoewel het nog steeds niet de landelijke Nederlandse specifiek
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Anthropometric measurements of the Nilotic tribes in a refugee camp. Chali D. Source Yekatit 12 Hospital, Addis Abeba, Ethiopia.
Abstract The heights and weights of 2,233 randomly selected adult Nilotic immigrants from Southern Sudan (50.8% Dinkas, 43.8% Nuers, 3.4% Anuaks and 2.0% Shilluks) that have settled in Itang, Southwestern Ethiopia were measured. The mean height, weight and body mass index [BMI = weight(kg)/the square of height(m2)] of men (N = 1,1618) were 175.9 + 9 cm) (+/- SD), 59.7 +/- 8 kg, and 19.4 +/- 2, respectively, and those of women (N = 615) were 169.0 +/- 7 cm, 54.0 +/- 8 kg, and 19.1 +/- 3, respectively. The mean height of Dinka men (176.4 +/- 9 cm) and Nuer men (175.7 +/- 9 cm) were significantly higher than that of Anuak men (171.7 +/- 8 cm) and Shilluk men (172.6 +/- 6.1 cm). The Nuer women's mean height, weight and BMI were significantly lower than those of the other tribes'. This study confirms that the Nilotics in Southern Sudan have slender bodies and are amongst the tallest in the world, and may attain greater height if priviledged with favourable environmental conditions during early childhood and adolescence, allowing full expression of the genetic material.
^A small sample from a refugee camp in 1995- hardly earth-shattering, or representative. And since they were refugees, nutritional problems could affect growth- the sample is clearly skewed without taking into account the full population picture.
and tropical African growth trends are more unless hindered by enviro factors "..but there seems to be a consistent pattern in all three groups.. Children of African stock are more advanced in growth at all ages than European children unless their growth has been restricted by environmental factors, and it therefore seems likely that infection would have been the main factor responsible for this slowing down in height growth.."
--Floud et al 1990 Health, Health and History
Dutch height is comparatively recent due to health care and nutrition. quote: "the Dutch are not tall because they need extra height to survive the cold.. they didn't start getting tall until about 150 years ago, so their height can't possibly be an evolutionary adaptation... Dutch height is a tribute to their health care and social services systems.." --The New Yorker 80 I 1-9 2004.
Dinka height statistics are often cited from 1963, but this ignores much improved nutritional conditions overall for East Africans since then. 1995 stats draw from impoverished, starving refugees not a full snapshot of the population. Just as Europeans are not sitting still, neither are Africans
ROgers and Bainbridge cited almost 6 feet for the Dinka in 1963, but scholars Eveleth and Tanner using a broader dataset, and Floud et al, report measurements that place the Dinka taller than other populations. And these measurements increase in favorable health and nutritional conditions which are much improved for the Dinka overall since 1963
^ D. F. Roberts, D. R. Bainbridge: Nilotic physique. American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 1963, p. 341-370
Tropical African height is consistently more over human history going back to ancient Turkana boy : "At eight years old, Turkana Boy was already five feet three inches tall. If he had lived to adulthood, he would have stood more than six feet tall. People who live in hot climates tend to be tall like Turkana Boy. Over generations, tallness evolved in populations living in hot climates because a long body exposes a lot of skin to the air, making it easy to cool off." -- Peter Robertshaw, Jill Rubalcaba 2005 The Early Human World. Oxford University PRess.
Small sample sizes do not show the full range of African heights as the scientific literature notes: qu0te- "The Turkana data are rather uneven probably due to small sample sizes." --Worldwide Variation in Human Growth. 1991. Phyllis B. Eveleth, James M. Tanner
In any event, historical data shows certain African groups WITHIN nations are the tallest people in the world. They are not sitting static and also have seen benefits of better nutrition.
----------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
IN DUTCH: Hoe lang is Nederland nog het langste volk ter wereld?
quote: Nederlanders zijn het langste volk ter wereld, maar hoe lang nog? Uit onderzoek blijkt dat de gemiddelde lengte van Nederlanders de laatste 13 jaar niet is toegenomen en dat is uitzonderlijk. De afgelopen 160 jaar is dit niet eerder gebeurd.
De volwassen inwoner van Nederland is gemiddeld 173,5 cm lang. Volwassen mannen zijn gemiddeld 180 cm lang, 13 cm langer dan volwassen vrouwen.
Hoger opgeleiden zijn gemiddeld langer dan lager opgeleiden. Het verschil tussen het laagste en hoogste opleidingsniveau bedraagt bijna 7 cm. Dat is voor een deel te verklaren doordat mannen en jongeren in het algemeen beter opgeleid zijn dan vrouwen en ouderen. Als daarmee rekening wordt gehouden, verschillen de laagst en hoogst opgeleiden nog altijd 3 cm in lichaamslengte.
Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
-
Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.
Lichaamslengte van Nederlanders naar stedelijkheid woongemeente, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
-
Overgewicht
In het algemeen worden onder- en overgewicht uitgedrukt met de Quetelet Index (QI). Vier van de tien volwassen Nederlanders hebben een QI van 25 of hoger en zijn dus te zwaar. Van ernstig overgewicht – uitgedrukt met een QI van 30 of meer – heeft 8% last.
Met name in de leeftijdsgroep 65-74 jaar is het percentage personen met overgewicht relatief hoog. Van deze ouderen heeft 57% een QI van 25 of meer.
Sedert 1981 is het percentage volwassenen met ernstig overgewicht – dus een QI van 30 of meer – met gemiddeld 0,2 procentpunt per jaar gestegen.
In het algemeen hebben naar verhouding meer lager dan hoger opgeleiden last van (ernstig) overgewicht.
Overgewicht van Nederlanders naar hoogst voltooide opleiding, 1997 (personen van 20 jaar en ouder)
IN ENGLISH How long the Netherlands is the tallest people in the world?
quote: The Dutch are the tallest people in the world, but for how long? Research shows that the average length of Dutch the last 13 years has not increased and that is exceptional. The last 160 years has not happened before.
The adult resident of the Netherlands is on average 173.5 cm long. Adult men are on average 180 cm long, 13 cm longer than adult women.
Higher education are on average longer than less educated. The difference between the lowest and highest educational level is nearly 7 cm. This is partly due to the fact men and young people in general better educated than women and the elderly. If taken into account, differences in the lowest and highest education still 3 cm in body length.
-------------
^^Patrol your Dutch translation says this below 180cm.. QUOTE:
The adult resident of the Netherlands is on average 173.5 cm long. Adult men are on average 180 cm long, 13 cm longer than adult women.
WHich is still shorter than the DInka studies..
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
Personen in niet verstedelijkte gebieden zijn gemiddeld bijna 2 cm langer dan personen in sterk verstedelijkte gebieden.
translation:
"People in non-urbanized areas are on average almost 2 inches longer than people in highly urbanized areas. "
If you want to make a better height comparison to the Netherlands it would be to Sudan (although Sudan has over twice the popualtion of the Netherlands
But Holland is only two of the twelve provinces of the Netherlands. But more importantly the rural Dutch can be up to two inches taller than the urban Dutch. That is a sub population like the the Dinka or Masaai are within Sudan. So the fair comparison is the rural Dutch to the Dinka rather than the whole of the Netherlands.
Thanks for the article Troll
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic