posted
Take a lot at this guys. Interpret the data!!!! Read the article. Those that have at least a high school education should be able to figure it out. This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.
Hints:
1. Tunisia column is very important BOTH the Berbers and the" arabs".
2. Compare NE/AP vs IP and note frequency AND H sub-groups of each compared to Tunisia.
Tell me the story here……
from:
Research article Open Access
Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa
from WIKI Quote:
H1
H1 encompasses an important fraction of Western European mtDNA, reaching its local peak among contemporary Basques (27.8%) and appearing at a high frequency among other Iberians and North Africans. Its frequency is above 10% in many other parts of Europe (France, Sardinia, British Isles, Alps, large portions of Eastern Europe), and above 5% in nearly all the continent.[1] Its subclade H1b is most common in eastern Europe and NW Siberia.[9] So far, the highest frequency of H1 - 61%- has been found among the Tuareg of the Fezzan region in Libya.[10][11] Frequencies of haplogroup H1 in the world (Ottoni et al. 2010)
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
What they are implying (speculating) is that the NAians got hg-H from two regions. Note there are no corresponding male lines....so you would think. tic! toc! Europeans are slick!!!!!
Quote: It also shows that the historical Arabian role on the region had more a cultural than a demic effect. Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled additional mtDNA differences between North African and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously thought
The aims of this paper are: 1) to subdivide the North African haplogroup H lineages into its known subhaplogroups, 2) to establish the phylogenetic and phylogeographic patterns of these subhaplogroups in the region, and 3) to compare them with those present in Europe and the Near East, in order to establish the strength of the human migrations from both continents into North Africa in spatial and temporal dimensions
The relative proximity of the Iberian Peninsula to the westernmost North African populations is graphically reflected in Figure 1a. It is evident that Tunisians and Berbers are closest to the Near East and the Arabian Peninsula. A principal component analysis (PCA) points to subhaplogroups H1 and H3 as being primarily responsible for the Iberian-Moroccan-Saharan connection, whereas H4, H5, H7, H8 and H11 testify the Near East influence (data not shown).
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Thanks for the link. Casual observation proved this out
1. The predominance of straight hair on a world-wide basis suggests that it is the original type of hair that the first humans had.
2. If melanin is present in the external layer of the iris then the eye will be brown. If melanin is lacking, the iris will be colorless but perceived as blue for the same reason that the sky seems blue and a lake seems blue. If melanin is present but unevenly distributed the eye is perceived as a brownish green and is called olive or hazel.
3. Most people in the world have brown eyes
Body size. Heritability estimates for most body size measurements imply that about 80% of the variability in body size is due to genetic factors (.8 heritiability), and about 20% is due to environmental factors.
A. Sexual dimorphism in body size is typical of humans, with females being 90-95% the size of males in almost all populations.
B. The secular trend. It seems that most of the world's populations are becoming larger through time. This is part of what is called the secular trend.
Few people think that this is actually a genetic evolutionary trend, and place the cause somewhere in the environment, mostly to diet. Some biologists have suggested that the secular trend is, in part, the result of selection due to mate choice (called sexual selection). However, in 1900 I would have served nicely as an 'average' height male in either the US or UK. Now most males are grotesquely taller. In Japan in 1949 the average height of males was not quite 5'4''. Now the average is equal to European males (5'10''). In Pakistan in 1972 the average height of males was just over 5'4'', and is now (for males 18-35) just less than the average for European males. Selection can simply not operate this quickly. Changes in public sanitation, particularly water supplies may also have an important impact. Most human populations maintain a fairly large disease and parasite load, which compete for the energy produced by the human body. Many of these are transmitted by human waste products which contaminate water, and through water (or lack of it) food.
C. Advantages of large body size. There are some advantages to large body size.
Big people are stronger. Bigger people are better predators - a lion can kill a wider variety of prey than a house cat. Bergman's rule. Large bodies are beneficial in colder climates according to Bergman's rule: The larger the animal the better it is at retaining heat. That is why during the glacial times many lineages of animals developed giant forms. Humans follow this rule in a broad way. People living near the poles tend to be larger on the average than those living near the equator, but there are a lot of exceptions. Certainly this is true in the new world where the native americans living in the amazon basin are among the shortest of all native americans. Larger people are generally faster runners. The fact that their stride length is longer and that they can apply more force with each stride due to larger muscles gives this advantage.
E. Advantages of small body size.
The most important of all selective pressures on body size is that small people require less food and can better survive when food is limited. Famines kill people in size order from largest first to smallest last. Smaller people are generally quicker and more agile. This is due to the principle of inertia from physics. A larger body takes more force to get moving and more force to change direction than a smaller body does.
F. Distribution of body size.
Europeans have the largest average body size. It is in Europe where Bergman's rule most clearly applies. The largest Europeans are from the far north, and the farther south you go in europe, the smaller the people. Africans include both the worlds tallest (if not exactly the largest) people and the world's smallest people. The Nuer, Masai, Watusi, and similar peoples of East Central Africa are the world's tallest and among the worlds largest. The Pygmies of West Central Africa and the Khoisan of Southern Africa are among smallest. Asians and Native Americans usually fall in the middle ranges. Only a few populations could be considered large, maybe the Samoans are one. Many populations could be described as small.
II. Body build. Most of the variation in body build in humans can be reduced to linear build vs lateral build. Let's contrast an extreme linear build with an extreme lateral build.
A. The extreme linear stereotype would be found in the previously mentioned tall peoples of East Central Africa. These people are very tall and slender. The chests, shoulders, and hips are very narrow - the narrowest in the world for their height. The limbs are extremely long, especially the legs.
B. The extreme lateral stereotype would be found in some Asian and Native Americans. Eskimos, Japanese, Samoans, Apache, and many South American Indians exhibit lateral build. A few Caucasoid groups also approach lateral build, especially the peoples of northern Europe. Laterally built people tend to have long and broad trunks, with wider chests, shoulders and hips. The widest hips of all can be found in Europeans. The limb bones tend to be short and the legs make less of a contribution to overall height.
C. Allen's rule. One primary selective force acting on body build is Allen's rule:
Animals living in colder climates should have shorter appendages and be more spherical than those living in warmer climates. This says that laterally built people should be found in colder climates and linearly built people in warm climates. This is true for humans on the average. The traditional comparison is between the Inuit and the Masai. The Inuit of the far north tend to be stocky with short arms and legs. The Masai of east africa tend to be very tall and slender, with long arms and legs.
D. These contrasting body builds have definite advantages for certain tasks. The linear builds seem to have a definite advantage in overall health, especially in that they experience much less heart disease and diabetes than laterally built people. Linear builds have the advantage in running speed - they make great sprinters. The mechanics of long slender legs, as explained in terms of levers and forces, are well designed for fast running. A non-human example is the contrast between cows and antelopes. Cows and antelopes are closely related, but cows are extreme laterals in build and antelopes are more linear. Obviously, antelopes can run faster than cows.
Narrow hips are another advantage in fast running. This is the reason that most men can run faster than most women. Women have broader hips as an adaptation for childbearing. The muscular arrangements that accompany narrow hips are much more efficient in moving the legs rapidly and powerfully. Since most Europeans have very broad hips you would expect them to be among the world's slowest runners, and this is pretty much what is observed.
E. Lateral builds have an advantage in endurance running, and any task that requires endurance. This is because the larger rib cage allows more room for a larger heart and lungs. The endurance feats that have been recorded for some Indians are legendary.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ TP, great lead was usual!!. That was my knee jerk reaction.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Clyde. I think your are right...I speculated about R1b along time ago with that confufle with Rasol..
quote:
H1 encompasses an important fraction of Western European mtDNA, reaching its local peak among contemporary Basques (27.8%) and appearing at a high frequency among other Iberians and North Africans. Its frequency is above 10% in many other parts of Europe (France, Sardinia, British Isles, Alps, large portions of Eastern Europe), and above 5% in nearly all the continent.[1] Its subclade H1b is most common in eastern Europe and NW Siberia.[9] So far, the highest frequency of H1 - 61%- has been found among the Tuareg of the Fezzan region in Libya.[10][11] Frequencies of haplogroup H1 in the world (Ottoni et al. 2010)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Take a lot at this guys. Interpret the data!!!! Read the article. Those that have at least a high school education should be able to figure it out. This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.
Ottoni 2010
Highest frequencies of H1
Libyan Tuareg 61
Basques (Spain) 27.8
Portugal 25.5
Andalusia 24.3
Pasiegos (Cantabria) 23.5
Tuareg (West Sahel) 23.3
Berbers (Morocco) 20.2
Folks are the Dinka or Dutch taller, what ethnic group does the rock art that alTakruri posted look most like? I don't care. Those two side topics are worn out and not important, let's return to the Genomic Ancestry of North Africa
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
I said either "Libyan" culture adapted turned out foreigners or admixed "Libyan's" of partial South European descent. Don't try to simplify me and make me waste my time and bandwidth back handing your erroneous simplifications OK. Ask and I'll tell you my opinion don't tell me what my opinion is. Respect me.
I've tried to be fair with you but your twists are getting on my nerves and about to pop my last stitch and break my camel's back.
I'm not telling you again to ask for clarification when you don't understand what I'm talking about but then I think you prefer people call you names and insult you.
EDIT Thanks for the correction. You restored my faith. An honest mistake is an honest mistake, appreciate your short phrase breakdown. I'm trying to be less stuffy but it's hard.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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what's going on here a white man on an animal spearing a black man? It's hard to say what it really means. The white colored man is sitting in a too casual position for that but then again the artsistry is very crude or highly stylized. Is it really a white person or is the color symbolic, body paint a mythological character? Is the white figure sticking the stick into the darker figure or just laying it across his chest? Nobody knows
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Folks ..., what ethnic group does the rock art that alTakruri posted look most like? I don't care. Those two side topics are worn out and not important, let's return to the Genomic Ancestry of North Africa
Sorry. I only posted the 2whiteguys behind the extermination point brought up by the Explorer. Also to correlate with Price's date (> 800 BCE) for white admixture in the pre-Sahara region.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Since the troll above (Lioness) quotes her synthesis of my views regarding the depicted figures for a second time, and shows no intention of stopping with trolling and attributing bizarre views to me, I'd like to point out that she is lying. I never said the figures look like Egyptians, or more like Egyptians than Romans, but, of course, the more astute readers have already caught on to her lie.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Folks ..., what ethnic group does the rock art that alTakruri posted look most like? I don't care. Those two side topics are worn out and not important, let's return to the Genomic Ancestry of North Africa
Sorry. I only posted the 2whiteguys behind the extermination point brought up by the Explorer. Also to correlate with Price's date (> 800 BCE) for white admixture in the pre-Sahara region.
It was mainly that height supremacy thing. The Dinka may or may not be taller than than the rural Dutch. I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
But more importantly the rural Dutch can be up to two inches taller than the urban Dutch.
^^Sure, but that doesn't show they would be taller overall. What is the average of the urban Dutch? And what are the averages of urban versus rural Dinka?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Since the troll above (Lioness) quotes her synthesis of my views regarding the depicted figures for a second time, I'd like to point out that the poster above me is lying. I never said the figures look like Egyptians, or more like Egyptians than Romans, but, of course, the more astute readers have already caught on to her lie.
well I'll put in the correction then, do the figures look more Egyptian than Roman to you?
ahhhhh never mind you never take a solid position on anything Mr. Nuances.
here's the correction:
Sweetnet: don't know just like to peck the lioness
posted
Instead of asking me what I think the figures look like (which hadn't even come up yet, until you started trolling others' syntheses around), perhaps a more fitting question would be, where you got it from in the first place that I found the said figures Egyptian looking, given the fact that I emphasized that Libyans and Nubians were especially associated with such apparel, more so than Ancient Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The depicted feather in hair by itself has much more affinity with ancient Egyptian, and, especially, ancient Nubian and Libyan customs.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ this is from Africanrockart.org
what's going on here a white man on an animal spearing a black man? It's hard to say what it really means. The white colored man is sitting in a too casual position for that but then again the artsistry is very crude or highly stylized. Is it really a white person or is the color symbolic, body paint a mythological character? Is the white figure sticking the stick into the darker figure or just laying it across his chest? Nobody knows
Prehistoric Saharan paintings are known fortheir superimpositions. Here we find brown stick-head and white style uncertain. I don't think the stick head artist and white artist are one and the same or that both figure types were done in the same period.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
Good info Patrol and of course Africa shows the most variation. Example: Lateral builds have an advantage in endurance running, and any task that requires endurance. This is because the larger rib cage allows more room for a larger heart and lungs. The endurance feats that have been recorded for some Indians are legendary.
^^True, but the best endurance runners are linearly built Africans. While the general pattern of info below is true, once again, the diversity of tropical Africans can cover many bases.
And it is unwritten.. That an unknown runner was dispatched, where the plains meet Marathon, and Marathon meets the sea...
Rest in peace, Abebe Bikila.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Troll Patrol.
Thanks for the link. Casual observation proved this out
1. The predominance of straight hair on a world-wide basis suggests that it is the original type of hair that the first humans had.
2. If melanin is present in the external layer of the iris then the eye will be brown. If melanin is lacking, the iris will be colorless but perceived as blue for the same reason that the sky seems blue and a lake seems blue. If melanin is present but unevenly distributed the eye is perceived as a brownish green and is called olive or hazel.
3. Most people in the world have brown eyes
Body size. Heritability estimates for most body size measurements imply that about 80% of the variability in body size is due to genetic factors (.8 heritiability), and about 20% is due to environmental factors.
A. Sexual dimorphism in body size is typical of humans, with females being 90-95% the size of males in almost all populations.
B. The secular trend. It seems that most of the world's populations are becoming larger through time. This is part of what is called the secular trend.
Few people think that this is actually a genetic evolutionary trend, and place the cause somewhere in the environment, mostly to diet. Some biologists have suggested that the secular trend is, in part, the result of selection due to mate choice (called sexual selection). However, in 1900 I would have served nicely as an 'average' height male in either the US or UK. Now most males are grotesquely taller. In Japan in 1949 the average height of males was not quite 5'4''. Now the average is equal to European males (5'10''). In Pakistan in 1972 the average height of males was just over 5'4'', and is now (for males 18-35) just less than the average for European males. Selection can simply not operate this quickly. Changes in public sanitation, particularly water supplies may also have an important impact. Most human populations maintain a fairly large disease and parasite load, which compete for the energy produced by the human body. Many of these are transmitted by human waste products which contaminate water, and through water (or lack of it) food.
C. Advantages of large body size. There are some advantages to large body size.
Big people are stronger. Bigger people are better predators - a lion can kill a wider variety of prey than a house cat. Bergman's rule. Large bodies are beneficial in colder climates according to Bergman's rule: The larger the animal the better it is at retaining heat. That is why during the glacial times many lineages of animals developed giant forms. Humans follow this rule in a broad way. People living near the poles tend to be larger on the average than those living near the equator, but there are a lot of exceptions. Certainly this is true in the new world where the native americans living in the amazon basin are among the shortest of all native americans. Larger people are generally faster runners. The fact that their stride length is longer and that they can apply more force with each stride due to larger muscles gives this advantage.
E. Advantages of small body size.
The most important of all selective pressures on body size is that small people require less food and can better survive when food is limited. Famines kill people in size order from largest first to smallest last. Smaller people are generally quicker and more agile. This is due to the principle of inertia from physics. A larger body takes more force to get moving and more force to change direction than a smaller body does.
F. Distribution of body size.
Europeans have the largest average body size. It is in Europe where Bergman's rule most clearly applies. The largest Europeans are from the far north, and the farther south you go in europe, the smaller the people. Africans include both the worlds tallest (if not exactly the largest) people and the world's smallest people. The Nuer, Masai, Watusi, and similar peoples of East Central Africa are the world's tallest and among the worlds largest. The Pygmies of West Central Africa and the Khoisan of Southern Africa are among smallest. Asians and Native Americans usually fall in the middle ranges. Only a few populations could be considered large, maybe the Samoans are one. Many populations could be described as small.
II. Body build. Most of the variation in body build in humans can be reduced to linear build vs lateral build. Let's contrast an extreme linear build with an extreme lateral build.
A. The extreme linear stereotype would be found in the previously mentioned tall peoples of East Central Africa. These people are very tall and slender. The chests, shoulders, and hips are very narrow - the narrowest in the world for their height. The limbs are extremely long, especially the legs.
B. The extreme lateral stereotype would be found in some Asian and Native Americans. Eskimos, Japanese, Samoans, Apache, and many South American Indians exhibit lateral build. A few Caucasoid groups also approach lateral build, especially the peoples of northern Europe. Laterally built people tend to have long and broad trunks, with wider chests, shoulders and hips. The widest hips of all can be found in Europeans. The limb bones tend to be short and the legs make less of a contribution to overall height.
C. Allen's rule. One primary selective force acting on body build is Allen's rule:
Animals living in colder climates should have shorter appendages and be more spherical than those living in warmer climates. This says that laterally built people should be found in colder climates and linearly built people in warm climates. This is true for humans on the average. The traditional comparison is between the Inuit and the Masai. The Inuit of the far north tend to be stocky with short arms and legs. The Masai of east africa tend to be very tall and slender, with long arms and legs.
D. These contrasting body builds have definite advantages for certain tasks. The linear builds seem to have a definite advantage in overall health, especially in that they experience much less heart disease and diabetes than laterally built people. Linear builds have the advantage in running speed - they make great sprinters. The mechanics of long slender legs, as explained in terms of levers and forces, are well designed for fast running. A non-human example is the contrast between cows and antelopes. Cows and antelopes are closely related, but cows are extreme laterals in build and antelopes are more linear. Obviously, antelopes can run faster than cows.
Narrow hips are another advantage in fast running. This is the reason that most men can run faster than most women. Women have broader hips as an adaptation for childbearing. The muscular arrangements that accompany narrow hips are much more efficient in moving the legs rapidly and powerfully. Since most Europeans have very broad hips you would expect them to be among the world's slowest runners, and this is pretty much what is observed.
E. Lateral builds have an advantage in endurance running, and any task that requires endurance. This is because the larger rib cage allows more room for a larger heart and lungs. The endurance feats that have been recorded for some Indians are legendary.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ TP, great lead was usual!!. That was my knee jerk reaction.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
@Sage - He/She/They/Lioness Production are on games.
Lioness thinks it's funny....mis-quoting posters. Or he is slow.
I am not sure what these rock art represent. They most likely are ROMAN Soldiers.
Now as for the data on modern day Berbers Henn etc- Yes they indigenous and if you prefer to call them Caucasoids...knock yourself out.
They are NOT modern Europeans or Eurasian descended!!! That is my point. There is no physical, linguistic, archeological, genetic, and anthropological evidence of that.
Infact if you follow my last post. The current view is that the so called European/Eurasian mtDNA Haplogroup H is actually African.
Read the article and study that table. If you can't follow, I will explain it to you later.
Hence my comment to Dr. Winters.
I speculated on that on Marc's 70pg thread. Go read it. Now here is the proof 4 years later. As I said then. That is the only geographic scenario that makes logical sense.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The current view is that the so called European/Eurasian mtDNA Haplogroup H is actually African.
With all due respect X, but that paper is old (meaning, I, and I'm assuming others as well, already took that paper into account), and you're just making up stuff.
The afronut bogus ''female Eurasian slaves'' excuse, when applied to what's CLEARLY prehistoric, non-recent ancestry in Berbers, needs to be called out for the crackpot emotion-driven quackery that it is. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.
posted
I also speculated that light skin is inherently human ie African - H. Norton et al, Blue eye also - Wasserman et al.
Straight hair also.
Modern Europeans are delusional to think they have a monopoly on any of these features.
That is why there are no races. All are Africans adapted to live in their respective ecological niche. Note the Andaman Islanders and New Guineans hair type.
That is why AEians are black skinned, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised with Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.
Quote: 1. The predominance of straight hair on a world-wide basis suggests that it is the original type of hair that the first humans had.
2. If melanin is present in the external layer of the iris then the eye will be brown. If melanin is lacking, the iris will be colorless but perceived as blue for the same reason that the sky seems blue and a lake seems blue. If melanin is present but unevenly distributed the eye is perceived as a brownish green and is called olive or hazel.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
@ Swenet. no diss taken. Read the paper bro and get back to me. Read it several times.
Hint - some papers never grow old. ie is always relevant.
Hint - Are there more current papers on the same subject? Note the objective of the paper!
I assume you can read and understand.
YOU intepret the data(Table) and get back to me.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I also speculated that light skin is inherently human ie African - H. Norton et al, Blue eye also - Wasserman et al.
Straight hair also.
Modern Europeans are delusional to think they have a monopoly on any of these features.
That is why here are no races. All are Africans adapted to live in their respective ecological niche. Note the Andaman Islanders and New Guineans ahir type.
That is why AEians are black skin, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.
If Africans have light skin then why don't Egyptians who live in a country at a similarly distant latidude from the equator have skin as light as some of the Libyans in the anceint Egyptian art?
posted
As I said. Very few can compete intelligently with me. They just don't have the smarts.
I am out-duelling you in your own forte...pictures.
Point is as seen in the real thing. AEians are black skin. The authentic pics of also show them black/brown skin. As they should be based on their ecological niche.
Want me to find those authentic ancient portrayals of Easterners?
Those portrayals are typical European delusion fantasy. If can't challenge me ....let me know.
I have better things to do.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
We are on the same page on this. But for different reasons. Mine is based upon what I posted above. Note however. There may be some migration of "Modern" European back-flow. But that does not(only) explain the pattern of H1 in NAians. The paper I posted is positing that (H*ancestral) originated in Africa or the NE/AP. My second reference states that the Taureg has the highest frequency of downstream H1 compared to Europeans. Note also the H1 is lowest in NE/AP.
shyte- I gave it away!!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
The afronut bogus ''female Eurasian slaves'' excuse, when applied to what's CLEARLY prehistoric, non-recent ancestry in Berbers, needs to be called out for the crackpot emotion-driven quackery that it is. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
This notion of White European women slaves as an explanation for the presence of mtDNA hg-H in North Africa is proving to be a myth.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
That is why AEians are black skin, have a combination of hair types, brown eyes, full lips, straight nose and flatish nose, etc. And carry African PN2 E1b1a and I wouldn't be suprised Hg-A AND E1b1b. There is a geographyical reason why. Science is not delusional.
^^indeed. THe cooler MEdit climate, the dry desert air- etc, all these elements cause Africans to vary- from skin color, to nose shape, to limb proportions, etc. But also for the new readers to keep in mind is that tropical Africans have the most phenotypic and genotypic diversity. They need not rely solely on environment to vary. Dark skinned, broad nosed Africans can be found in cool cloud forest or high altitude mountain, and narrow noses and fair skin can be found in humid lowland savannah.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
That is the problem with genetics and not understanding and keeping up. It takes awhile.
Many studies just reference the "macro-Haplogroup H." This is one of the few that has increased resolution. Think magnifying glass!!! Now when you hear hg-H, think which one.
It is the same technology that proved out the Basque R1b1a2 is YOUNGER than modern Europeans.
It is the same technology that proved out that R-V88 in Guianea Bissua is "older" than those further north thus proving no back-migration per Cruiciani et al.
so, no, the paper is not out dated. The study is very relevant.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: As I said. Very few can compete intelligently with me. They just don't have the smarts.
I am out-duelling you in your own forte...pictures.
Point is as seen in the real thing. AEians are black skin. The authentic pics of also show them black/brown skin. As they should be based on their ecological niche.
Want me to find those authentic ancient portrayals of Easterners?
Those portrayals are typical European delusion fantasy. If can't challenge me ....let me know.
I have better things to do.
you tooting your own horn again?
You don't even understand what I was saying.
I put up a picture that included Libyans You did not put up a picture that included Libyans
Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians
Why?
if they are at the same distance from the equator as Egyptians? at the same level of UV which influences skin tone? Why would they be lighter ?
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Mitochondrial Haplogroup H1 in North Africa: An Early Holocene Arrival from Iberia Claudio Ottoni equal contributor,
Giuseppina Primativo equal contributor,
Baharak Hooshiar Kashani,
Alessandro Achilli,
Cristina Martínez-Labarga,
The Tuareg of the Fezzan region (Libya) are characterized by an extremely high frequency (61%) of haplogroup H1, a mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroup that is common in all Western European populations. To define how and when H1 spread from Europe to North Africa up to the Central Sahara, in Fezzan, we investigated the complete mitochondrial genomes of eleven Libyan Tuareg belonging to H1. Coalescence time estimates suggest an arrival of the European H1 mtDNAs at about 8,000–9,000 years ago, while phylogenetic analyses reveal three novel H1 branches, termed H1v, H1w and H1x, which appear to be specific for North African populations, but whose frequencies can be extremely different even in relatively close Tuareg villages. Overall, these findings support the scenario of an arrival of haplogroup H1 in North Africa from Iberia at the beginning of the Holocene, as a consequence of the improvement in climate conditions after the Younger Dryas cold snap, followed by in situ formation of local H1 sub-haplogroups. This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
Introduction Top
In the last few years the story of human migrations has been extensively reconstructed thanks to the contribution of archaeology and genetics, particularly the latter through the study of the two uniparentally transmitted genetic systems: mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome. The study of maternal genealogies appears to indicate that the peopling of the Eurasian continent by modern humans likely began around 60–70 thousand years ago (kya) through the ‘southern coastal route’ from the Horn of Africa via Arabia and South Asia, up to Australasia [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. However, alternative exit scenarios, including a more northern route into the Levant and multiple waves of migration (see Kayser 2010 [6] and Majumder 2010 [7] for a review), have recently regained some momentum after the postulated detection of some Neanderthal nuclear DNA variation in the genomes of modern Eurasians [8]. The ‘southern coastal route’ scenario instead implies that, blocked by deserts, humans could not move from the Arabian Gulf area into the Levant earlier than 50 kya, when climate conditions improved [9]. Entrance into the Levant paved the way to the dispersal of modern humans both north-westward into Europe and south-westward into Northern Africa [10], [11]. During the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), approximately between 26.5 and 19 kya [12] ice sheets largely covered large portions of North America and Europe. In warmer regions of the world, the climate was cooler and drier and deserts spread over large regions, particularly in Northern Africa, Middle East and Central Asia [13], [14]. Accordingly, during the LGM, humans concentrated in refugial areas of southwestern Europe, in the Balkans and Levant, and on the east European plains [9], [15], [16]. The subsequent Bølling warming, around 15 kya, triggered re-expansion processes which led to the resettlement of Central and Northern Europe. Genetic signatures of these expansions are evident in mtDNA genealogies, for instance haplogroups H1, H3 and V contributed to the gradual re-peopling of Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge in the postglacial [17], [18]. Similarly, though to a lesser extent, H5*(xH5a), H20 and H21 may be associated to a postglacial population expansion phase in the Caucasus area [19]. Although restricted to the Mediterranean coast, an expansion took place also from the Italian peninsula northward, as attested to by the haplogroup U5b3 [20].
Evidence of trans-Mediterranean contacts between Northern Africa and Western Europe has been assessed at the level of different genetic markers (e.g. [21], [22], [23], [24]). With regards to the mtDNA, the high incidence of H1 and H3 in Northwest Africa, together with some other West European lineages (i.e. V and U5b), reveals a possible link with the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula, which not only directed north-eastward into the European continent [17], [18], [25], but also southward, beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, into North Africa [26], [27]. So, besides the ‘autochthonous’ South-Saharan component, the maternal pool of Northern Africa appears to be characterized by at least two other major components: (i) a Levantine contribution (i.e. haplogroups U6 and M1, [11]), associated with the return to Africa around 45 kya, and (ii) a more recent West European input associated with the postglacial expansion.
Within the West-European component in North Africa, H1 is the most represented haplogroup with frequencies ranging from 21% in some Tunisian Berber groups to 1% in Egypt [28]. Recently, an extremely high incidence of H1 (61%) has been reported in a Tuareg population from the Central Sahara, in Libya [29]. Tuareg are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of Northwest Africa, who speak a Berber language. MtDNA analyses performed on the Libyan Tuareg have highlighted their genetic relatedness with some Berber groups and other North African populations, mainly resulting from the sharing of a common West-Eurasian component. A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.
To better define the nature and extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya we have now determined the complete sequence of eleven of their mtDNAs belonging to H1. The comparison of these H1 sequences with those already available from Europe and North Africa provides new clues on how and when H1 spread in Northern Africa up to the Central Sahara. Methods Top
Earlier mtDNA molecular analyses carried out on the two hypervariable segments (HVS-I and HVS-II) and diagnostic markers in the mtDNA coding region in a sample of 129 Libyan Tuareg from two neighboring villages in Fezzan (Al Awaynat and Tahala) allowed the detection of 79 H1 mtDNAs encompassing 61% of the population sample [29]. Appropriate written informed consent to anonymously use their data was obtained from all individuals. The ethics approval for this study was provided by the Ethical committee of the University of Rome Tor Vergata (DM 12 maggio 2006, Delibera n. 243/2007). The genetic diversity of the Libyan H1 mtDNAs appeared to be extremely low, with 91% of the H1 individuals sharing the same HVS-I/II haplotype (i.e. CRS-263). In the present work, a more detailed molecular characterization of the H1 haplotypes was performed. In particular, eight mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype and three mtDNAs harboring the haplotype 16037-16256-263 (for more detail see Ottoni et al. 2009 [29]) were chosen and submitted to complete sequencing. The sequencing procedure and the phylogeny construction of the complete mtDNAs were performed as described elsewhere [17], [30].
The rho statistic and its standard deviation sigma [31] were calculated for both the entire H1 haplogroup and its internal sub-clades. Maximum Likelihood (ML) estimates were also provided by using PAML 3.13 and considering three partitions on the entire mitochondrial molecule: HVS-I (positions 16051 to 16400), HVS-II (positions 68 to 263) and remainder. The age estimates were then converted to years according to the mutation rates of Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33].
Moreover, once the phylogeny of the H1 Tuareg lineages was reconstructed and its internal clades defined, 50 of the 64 remaining Tuareg H1 mtDNAs harboring the CRS-263 haplotype were surveyed for the diagnostic mutations of the novel branches, thus allowing their sub-classification. The remaining 14 mtDNAs were not screened for sub-clade markers due to lack of DNA.
In detail, PCR amplification and sequencing of four fragments was carried out in order to investigate the status at nucleotide positions (nps) 4313 (L4180-AACTTCCTACCACTCACC, H4621-TGGCAGCTTCTGTGGAAC), 9148 (L9003-CCTAACCGCTAACATTAC, H9280-CTAGGCCGGAGGTCATTA), 14560 (L14398-AACACTCACCAAGACCTCAACC, H14832-AGTGAGCCGAAGTTTCATCATG) and 8966 (L8908-TTCTTACCACAAGGCACACC, H9014-TAGGTGGCCTGCAGTAATGT), which respectively mark H1v1, H1v1a, H1v1b and H1w.
The geographic representation of H1 haplogroup frequencies was obtained using Surfer 6 (http://www.goldensoftware.com) with the Kriging procedure. Frequency estimates at each grid node were inferred by considering the entire data set. The extent of H1 variation in North Africa was evaluated from available HVS-I data (nps 16024–16365) with the software Arlequin version 3.1 [34]. Results Top
The most parsimonious tree encompassing eleven complete H1 mtDNAs from the Tuareg together with four previously published sequences from Tunisia [35], one Berber from Egypt [17] and two Jewish Moroccans [36] is illustrated in Figure 1. All Tuareg sequences clustered into three clades that had not been previously reported and thus were termed H1v, H1w and H1x. Five sequences grouped into the sub-clade H1v1 defined by the transition at np 4313. One Tunisian sequence (# 8) did not cluster into H1v1 but was closely related, since it harbored the mutation at 10314 that defines the clade H1v (Figure 1). The sub-clade H1v1 splits into two branches defined by the transitions at np 9148 (clade H1v1a) and 14560 (clade H1v1b). Three Tuareg mtDNAs formed the novel clade H1w that is defined by the transition at np 8966, while the last three Tuareg mtDNAs, apart from the HVS-I transitions at 16037 and 16256, were found to harbor mutations at nps 7765 and 10410 in the coding region (clade H1x). The Tuareg complete mtDNAs have been deposited in GenBank, under the accession numbers reported in Table S1. thumbnail
Figure 1. Most parsimonious tree of complete H1 mtDNA sequences from North Africa.
The tree includes 18 complete mtDNA sequences and illustrates sub-haplogroup affiliations, including the novel sub-haplogroups H1v, H1w and H1x. Eleven sequences are from the Tuareg of Libya and seven were previously published: four Tunisians, two Moroccan Jews, and one Berber from Egypt (Table S1 and the supplementary References S1). The position of the revised Cambridge reference sequence (rCRS) [47] is indicated for reading off sequence motifs. Tuareg mtDNAs were selected through a preliminary sequence analysis of the control region and an RFLP survey in order to include the widest possible range of internal variation of haplogroup H1. The sequencing procedure and phylogeny construction were performed as described elsewhere [17], [30]. Mutations are shown on the branches; they are transitions unless a base is explicitly indicated. The prefix @ designates reversions, while suffixes indicate: transversions (to A, G, C, or T), indels (+, d), gene locus (~t, tRNA; ~r, rRNA; ~nc, non coding region outside of the mtDNA control region), and synonymous or non-synonymous changes (s or ns). Recurrent mutations are underlined. The root of H1o has been defined according to Behar et al. [36]. Additional information regarding each mtDNA is available on Table S1 and on the supplementary References S1. MtDNAs # 1 and 2 are from Moroccan Jews [36], # 3–7 and 9–14 are from Libyan Tuareg, # 8 and 15–17 are from Tunisian subjects [35], and # 18 is from a Berber of Egypt [17]. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0013378.g001
Divergence values (rho statistics and ML estimates) and the age in years of the most recent common ancestor of the main clusters are reported in Table 1, according to the evolutionary rate estimates described in Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33]. The two evolutionary rates provide a coalescence time of about 8–9 kya for the whole H1 haplogroup in North Africa. As expected, the North African-specific clades are characterized by younger ages ranging from about 3.8 to 6.7 kya for H1v, and from 2.1 to 7.9 kya for H1v1. The youngest clades were found to be H1w and H1x, with an age of about 0.8–1.1 kya. thumbnail
Table 1. Age estimates of relevant nodes in the North African H1 phylogeny illustrated in Figure 1. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0013378.t001
The survey of diagnostic markers 4313, 8966, 9148 and 14560 in 50 individuals characterized by the CRS-263 haplotype showed that all of these clustered within the two novel sub-clades H1v1 and H1w identified by initial sequencing of the eight entire mtDNAs characterized by the CRS-263 control-region motif. Overall the 64 Libyan Tuareg mtDNAs belonging to H1 (Table S2) were mostly distributed between the clades H1v1 (38%) and H1w (53%), with a minor component (9%) belonging instead to clade H1x. Within H1v1, half of the Libyan Tuareg (i.e. 12 individuals, equal to 50%) were characterized by the transition at np 9148 (sub-clade H1v1a) and half by the transition at np 14560 (sub-clade H1v1b). It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades. Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.
An up-to-date map of the H1 spatial distribution in Africa and West Eurasia is illustrated in Figure 2. Frequency data and other details of the populations from the literature included in this survey are reported in Table S3 and in the supplementary References S1. There is an evident frequency peak in the Central Sahara associated with the Libyan Tuareg, who show the highest frequency value (61%) among all the populations considered in the analysis. Since the high frequency of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously reported data (Figure 3). As expected, frequency peaks in the European continent were observed in the Iberian Peninsula, whereas in Northern Africa the rather high frequency values in Morocco and Tunisia became apparent. More southward, among the Tuareg from the Sahel region [37], a frequency peak is also observed. To further evaluate the extent of H1 variation in the Tuareg from Libya relative to that of Moroccans, Tunisians and Sahelian Tuareg samples, HVS-I data from the four groups were employed to calculate the diversity indices reported in Table 2. The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward. Moroccans, Tunisians and the Tuareg from Sahel were found to be much more diverse than the Libyan Tuareg, with haplotype diversities of 0.577, 0.633 and 0.595, respectively. Similarly, the values of nucleotide diversity and average number of nucleotide differences observed in Morocco (0.309 and 1.056), Tunisia (0.316 and 1.081) and among the Tuareg from Sahel (0.234 and 0.800) are all much higher than those of the Libyan Tuareg (0.098 and 0.335).
posted
Last post on the topic for now...work to do on ESR.
Again. Look at the data on the table. ANCESTRAL MtDNA hg-H is highest in two regions. ie Tunisia and NE/AP. NOT Europe. H1 is high in Tunisia/Libya and Europe NOT NE/AP. The other hg-H sub-clades are recent migrants from the NE.
This correlates with Henn et al but Henn uses SNPs.
Central North Africa holds the two OLDEST clades of hg-H. not Europe and not NE/AP. Laws of Mathematics, you know.. high school geometry, intersections, etc. Swenet thinks back-migration Not slaves. I proved point of origin NOT slaves.
GET IT!!!
That explains the high frequency of hg-H in North Africa(not white female slaves). They make that clear in the body of paper but not the conclusion.
Their point - North Africa habors different types of hg-H. Some old and the others new. Their object in the study was to prove that the Strait of Gib was a barrier. They are trying to understand why there are female European genes in NA and NOT the corresponding male R-M269
That is why they use high resolution to discriminate the sub-clades of hg-H. And they succeeded in proving that.
This is very simple - but you have to understand what tools these researchers are using, what they are trying to prove, their source population, their resolution etc.
I know pictures are easier to understand!!!!
Remember the R-V88 thing in central Africa.
1st - they were confused. 2nd - they said back migration, albeit no female lineage. 3rd - now with better technology they confirmed it is older AND diffused south TO north.
As for the pics - my point, again, authentic rendition of the Herd of Ra shows AEians extremely dark. Go to that latitude UV -skin pigmentation map. Lower Egyptians may be lighter than upper Egyptians. Similarly indigenous Southern Arabians and Southern Persians are as dark....and some Libyans...no admixture needed.
BYE!!!
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: How did Henn's ~280 K SNP genome comparison missout on all Tunisian SSA components when deep ancestry uniparentals reveal significant SSA contributions as in Cherni 2009 and Ennafaa 2011, neither of whom are among Henn's references?
Simple. Sample bias. Carefully chosen (or ignored) samples can show you anything you want or don't want. It can lead to false results and analysis.
For example, ignore Anglo-Saxons samples in the USA and it's almost like they never existed.
This is a table of all the populations they used in the study (very limited):
Table S1: Details of the dataset used in the present study.
Population Sample Size Country Reference Morocco - North 18 Morocco Present study Morocco - South 16 Morocco Present study Saharawi 18 Western Sahara Present study Algerian 19 Algeria Present study Tunisian 18 Tunisia Present study Libyan 17 Libya Present study Egyptian 19 Egypt Present study Basques 20 Spain Present study Tuscans 26 Italy HapMap3 Qatari 30 Qatar Hunter-Zinck et al. 2010 Yoruba 26 Nigeria HapMap3 Hausa 12 Nigeria Bryc et al. 2010 Bulala 15 Nigeria Bryc et al. 2010 Fulani 12 Nigeria Bryc et al. 2010 Luhya 25 Kenya HapMap3 Maasai 30 Kenya HapMap3
They pick 30 person (not random at all) in a country and label them representative of the whole country.
IMO, those type of statistical studies should involve much more people spread across the whole region under study to be truly representative of the region. Not just a couples of hand picked samples very limited in their spread and diversity.
This study doesn't give the population structure of the whole region under study. Just the population structure of this very limited sample set. Like tracing the origin of Americans in Italy after sampling only population in the Italian neighborhoods in America. With this study you could also discover that Americans from the east cost are in fact only 5% Anglo-saxons and those from the west coast are 17% Anglo-saxons (aka 2 different Italian neighborhoods with various degree of admixture with Anglo-saxons Americans). Ridiculous.
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Above the front door, travel by boat. Pilgrimage to Abydos
26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..
The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: YOU intepret the data(Table) and get back to me.
I know you like the fancy illustrations and colors in Ottoni et al, 2010's figs and tables, but there is more to the issue of H1 and H3 in North Africa than just crude hap freqs.
Men lie, women lie, numbers don't:
Iberian H1 and H3:
As expected, when only mtDNAs belonging to H1 and H3 were included, younger coalescence times were obtained. They were 12.8 2.4 kya for H1, and 10.3 2.4 kya for H3. These coalescence ages are very similar, and they become even more similar (10.8 1.1 kya and 11.0 1.4 kya, respectively) when the estimates are obtained by inclusion of previously published H1 and H3 sequences (table 2). --Achilli et al, 2004
Berber H1 and H3:
This scenario is further supported by the overall age of haplogroup H1 in North Africa. Using the evolution rates recently proposed by Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33], haplogroup H1 shows a coalescence time of approximately 8–9 ky (Table 1), in agreement with the hypothesis of an early arrival and radiation of H1 in the African continent in the first half of the Holocene, as a consequence of the postglacial expansion from the Iberian Peninsula. --Ottoni et al, 2010
So, let me get this right. Berber H1 and H3, which split from Iberian H1 and H3 ~9-8kya, were brought to Iberia from North Africa when Berbers didn't even have it ~11kya nor existed as an ancestral unit?
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: [QB] Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..
Dakhla:
The master of the house ..
Above the front door, travel by boat. Pilgrimage to Abydos
"Govenors of the Oasis"
a cemetery at Qila’ el-Dabba, Dakhla, ranging chronologically from the Old Kingdom to the Second Intermediate Period, with a late reoccupation in the Roman Period. The importance of this site is found in the exceptional situation of an Egyptian settlement far from the Nile Valley, At Ain Asil, the remains of three phases of the urban settlement have been distinguished, dating between the late 5th/early 6th Dynasties and the First Intermediate Period. Excavation in the southern part of the site revealed the presence of four pottery workshops. Subsequently, the extension of these investigations led to the clearing of an administrative district, perhaps including the governorate of the oasis. The funerary chapels of three governors of the oasis were located. Each has the same basic plan
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The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Libyans are depicted in Egyptian art as lighter skinned than Egyptians
[/QB]
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..
Libyan Dynasty 22-23rd dynasty, of descent 24th founded by Shoshenq I
The Twenty-sixth Dynasty of Egypt (also written Dynasty XXVI or Dynasty 26) was the last native dynasty to rule Egypt before the Persian conquest in 525 BC
Psamtik I (also spelled Psammeticus or Psammetichus, in Greek: Ψαμμήτιχος), was the first of three kings of that name of the Saite, or Twenty-sixth dynasty of Egypt. Psamtik I campaigned vigorously against those local princes who opposed his reunification of Egypt. One of his victories over certain Libyan marauders is mentioned in a Year 10 and Year 11 stela from the Dakhla Oasis. The idea Psamtik was of Libyan descent himself is speculation. If he was Libyan was he pure Libyan of was he 50% Libyan or was he 25% ?
Psamtik I is 25th dynasty and depictions of him are in Egypytian style. That is a weak argument for representation of Libyans. My images go back to the 20th dynasty and they are in their proper Libyan garb with side lock. I already stated in this thread that some Libyans are portrayed in Eygptian art as reddish brown skin others yellowish or paler. Stop the emotional reactions. The point here is that there are numerous pieces of Egyptian art where they portray some Libyans as significantly lighter skinned than they are. If they are peoples of the same distance form the equator why is that? Is it because some Libyans had some out of Africa ancestry ? That is the issue, not that you can find different paintings
But all people can think is she's making a statement that all Libyans were light skinned.
Same type of thing with the talk of samples, because people think the sample sizes of some study are too small or not focused in a particular area they dismiss the entire study instead of recognizing that these early back to Africa migrations occured in some parts of North Africa.
^^^^ LIbyan captives to make everybody happy
let's not rehash
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posted
Thanks Jari. I am done with Lioness and their selective pictures.
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posted
@ Swenet - Agreed . There is more to Haplo-group than frequency. So we got that out of the way. So it seems like you agree that North Africans have a higher frequency of some H Clades than Europeans? Let's move one.
Where we part ways is the coalesence age. That is where BS is at play. Fact is North Africans have a MUCH Higher Frequency of H* than Europeans. If you are thinking man, the conundrum is ...why AP/NE has such a high frequency of H* and H-subclades and NOT H1(European).
Since you are moving in the right direction but can't get past the coalescence age....
Coalescene age etc is all speculation...remember AMH left Africa 40-100K ya!!!!....depending on who wrote the paper. There are FACTS and there is story telling. Frequency is a FACT. Resolution is a FACT. Coalescence....
To be continued. We will discussion coalescence age next....busy
Quote:
However, any statements concerning the geographic origin of this or any other haplogroup are highly speculative and considered by most population geneticists to be 'story telling' and outside the domain of science. Furthermore, inferring close associations between a haplogroup and a specific archaeological culture can be equally problematic.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
^You're reaching n bending outta shape trying to apologize for the uniparental Africanity of your precious Berbers. You're stooping to the low of baselessly criticizing well received peer reviewed research, when you yourself have zero credentials, arguments or anything other than what seems to be emotion driven yelps with zero substance.
Leaving aside your comments on the coalescence ages of H1 and H3 (that its just speculation) aside for a minute, even your interpretation of what the high frequencies of the aforementioned uniparentals in Berber speakers mean aren't supported by anything substantial either. Yeah, they're higher than in Iberia, but so what? Entertaining the idea that the implicated Maghrebi and Iberian H clades weren't inflated and deflated, respectively, by drift, who says that current Iberian H1 and H3 levels are perfect replicas of the Iberian Hunter Gatherers who they inherited H1 and H3 from, and that the freqs of these mtDNAs weren't affected by later Farmer and Bronze age populations?
On another note, the apparel in some of Jari's pics seems to have affinity with certain Libyans and the Mentuhotep's assimilation of the Oases into the Egyptian economy no later than the Middle Kingdom may suggest that Old Kingdom Oases dwellers were either politically allied to some other entity (Libyans perhaps?) or that they were their own entity.
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posted
xyyman is being simplistic. he thinks highest frequency = origin when it is merely due to the isolation of one of the groups in the distribution
_____________________________________
Ottoni:
Divergence values (rho statistics and ML estimates) and the age in years of the most recent common ancestor of the main clusters are reported in Table 1, according to the evolutionary rate estimates described in Soares et al. [32] and Loogväli et al. [33]. The two evolutionary rates provide a coalescence time of about 8–9 kya for the whole H1 haplogroup in North Africa.
the Libyan Tuareg is most likely the result of random genetic drift and founder events, we also investigated the H1 distribution removing the Libyan Tuareg sample and thus leaving only previously
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posted
xxyman, the Kabyles are the largest Berber language speaking group
genetics as follows
Y-Dna haplogroups, passed on exclusively through the paternal line, were found at the following frequencies in Kabylie: E1b1b1b (E-M81) (47.36%), R1*(xR1a) (15.78%) (later tested as R1b3/R-M269 (now R1b1a2)[12]), J1 (15.78%), F*(xH, I, J2,K) ( 10.52% ) and E1b1b1c (E-M123) (10.52%).[13] The North African pattern of Y-chromosomal variation (including both E1b1b and J haplogroups) is largely of Semitic origin.
MtDNA Haplogroups, by contrast, inherited only from the mother, were found at the following frequencies: H (32.23%), U* (29.03% with 17.74% U6), preHV (3.23%), preV (4.84%), V (4.84%), T* (3.23%), J* (3.23%), L1 (3.23%), L3e (4.84%), X (3.23%), M1 (3.23%), N (1.61%) and R (3.23%).
based on this genetic profile would you say they are primarily Afican or non-African in origin ? (unless you're scared)
E-M81 is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb, dominated by its subclade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.[2][25] This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[25][26][27] Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite, Middle Atlas, Kabyle and other Berber groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber marker". Pereira et al. 2010 report high levels amongst Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina
alTakruri, this might mean the Kabyles are primarily African and dana is not going to like this
xyyman, dana takes the "afrocentric" position that the lighter skinned Kabyles, the largest berber speaking group are not real berbers, they are fake and derived primarily from European slaves.
However they do have significant H also although xyyman says that's African also .
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posted
And "I" am reaching...I sense a backpadeling coming on...to be continued.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^.
high frequencies of the aforementioned uniparentals in Berber speakers mean aren't supported by anything substantial ****either.**** YEAH, they're higher than in Iberia, ****but so what? ****
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posted
BTW - where is your precious MALE Iberian migrants? Notice R-V88 is also OLDER than R-M269. Same as the H*(NA) is older than H1(Ib). In case you missed it. Their is a trend here.
You will get it eventualy
@ Lioness - I have never seen a modern Berber. No idea what one looks like. I only look at the data.
Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.
Finally . ..we got that out of the way...to be continued
Ravens/Broncos game is a show stopper. Colin should be on fire tonight.
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Note: 1 - Tunisia is very light(no admixture needed) 2. - Libya is 50/50 3. - Egypt is 75(dark)/25 4. - NE same as Africa 5. - Persia similar to Arabia/NE
Ottoman Turks are not indigenous to Africa, Africa and Arabia. Note skin tone of Turks.
This is a freebie.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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xyyman what's this point your are trying to make about Turks? How does this relate to the discussion? The maps shows Turks and Tunisians/N.Algerians of the same skin tone (also South East China)
posted
Sighhhh!! Read the article Lioness. There is difference between H and H*. H* in this study is upstream, meaning older. H1 is downstream.
H is the entire haplo-group. That is why it is important to read the Material and Method section of these papers. Also trying to understand the nomenclature. eg ISOGG.
My point of the skin map is to show the anticipated color of indigenous Tunisians. They are expected to be lighter than southern Berbers.,,,no admixture needed. Similar to the people in the Atlas mountains. Sergi comes to mind. He was on point.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [
Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.
where is your source on what you call older hg-H and the presence of it in NA?
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posted
As I said I have never seen a Berber so I am going by ONLY scientific data. (lady justice).
So please...I am not sure who these people are you are posting pictures of. These days anyone can claim to be anything eg YOU are a Black African Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: And "I" am reaching...I sense a backpadeling coming on...to be continued.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^.
high frequencies of the aforementioned uniparentals in Berber speakers mean aren't supported by anything substantial ****either.**** YEAH, they're higher than in Iberia, ****but so what? ****
What is this post supposed to communicate?
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sighhhh!! Read the article Lioness. There is difference between H and H*. H* in this study is upstream, meaning older. H1 is downstream.
H is the entire haplo-group. That is why it is important to read the Material and Method section of these papers. Also trying to understand the nomenclature. eg ISOGG.
My point of the skin map is to show the anticipated color of indigenous Tunisians. They are expected to be lighter than southern Berbers.,,,no admixture needed. Similar to the people in the Atlas mountains. Sergi comes to mind. He was on point.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [
Happy to see that YOU are also agreeing ... female Africans have a higher frequency of older hg-H.
where is your source on what you call older hg-H and the presence of it in NA?
wake up
H*
Tun = 48
NE =51
_____________________
Tun = Tunsian
NE = Near East
you played yourself
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H - Mitochondrial haplogroup H is a predominantly European haplogroup that participated in a population expansion beginning approximately 20,000 years ago. Today, about 40% of all mitochondrial lineages in Europe are classified as haplogroup H. It is rather uniformly distributed throughout Europe suggesting a major role in the peopling of Europe, and descendant lineages of the original haplogroup H appear in the Near East as a result of migration. Future work will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.
H* - A Haplogroup assignment of H* indicates that you belong to Haplogroup H, but not to any of the subclades you were tested for and that were known at the time that the test was performed. Since new subclades will continue to be discovered, it is unreasonable and expensive to test for each of the additional subclades after each publication. The best way to resolve a sample that is haplogroup H* is through testing the full mtDNA sequence. This test would provide us with all of the mutations in a person’s mtDNA, which means that that person would never need to do any additional mtDNA testing. Even if they are still H* after the full sequence test, their results can be immediately used to attempt to identify a subclade when new subclades are published.
H1 – H1 is the most common branch of haplogroup H. It represents 30% of people in haplogroup H, and 46% of the maternal lineages in Iberia. 13-14% of all Europeans belong to this branch, and H1 is about 13,000 years old.
H1a – H1a is a branch of H1. Further research will better resolve the distribution and historical characteristics of this haplogroup.
IB, H*=18% H=44%. Does that make sense? They are using their own nomenclature, similar to ISOGG.
Stick to posting pictures.
The HG designation is far from being standardize. ISOGG is attempting to do that. I thought the four(LP) of you would figure that.
Remember E3b which is now E1b1b? R1b is now R1b1a2*. * = upstream or undifferentaited. Sometimes * can mean the macro-haplo group. That is why you read the Material and Methods to try to understand which naming system they are using....
I give up...... Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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Swenet thinks back-migration Not slaves. I proved point of origin NOT slaves. 
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