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Author Topic: Nubian aDNA: what the hell is stopping ES members from claiming CL Fox 1997?
Swenet
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mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
quote:
The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26.7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa 1 (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68.7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
I can't wrap my mind around why this paper is so undercited, aside from Cuckoo Mathilda and her confused puppets. Notice I'm not saying that this paper has been ignored by ES members, as its potential to be misconstrued has been nipped in the bud several times. But why isn't it pro-actively quoted as much as, say, DNA Tribes' Amarna analysis?

First of all, judging by the abstract, the authors aren't even saying that these Nubians had 61% non-African mtDNAs, and secondly, their title and abstract are suggesting that they were testing the contributions of Niger Congo speaking Africans in the ancient Nile Valley genepool (which doesn't make sense due to the fact that these lineages predate anything Niger-Congo, but oh well..):

Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39%

^They clearly aren't counting Northeast African specific mtDNA Ls (which we now know, are prominent).

Thirdly, it is NORMAL for Sudanese to only have ~30% hpa I np 3592 associated uniparentals (L1 and L2):

quote:
For mtDNA analysis, a total of 56 haplotypes were observed, all belonging to the major sub-Saharan African and Eurasian mitochondrial macrohapolgroups L0, L1, L2, L4, L5, L3A, M and N in frequencies of 12.1, 11.9, 22, 4.2, 6.2, 29.5, 2, and 12.2% respectively.
--Hassan, 2009
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Djehuti
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^ I thought this issue was discussed several times before where the Euronuts tried to claim non-Hpal (np3,592) lineages as 'Caucasian' even though these same lineages are common in Sudan as you say.
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anguishofbeing
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Will Smith doesn't look Nubian - Mary
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Djehuti
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Getting back to the topic, are there any studies on Hpal frequencies of modern Sudanese populations?? The Euronuts keep touting Hpal as evidence of lack thereof 'negroes' but those of us in the know, know otherwise.
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Firewall
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Modern sudan
Now this is paternal only.




Sample Nubians taken(Nile Valley)
Nubians (Agriculturists; n=39; Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic)
3/39 = 7.7% B-M60 - Nilotic
3/39 = 7.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. North East Africa
5/39 = 12.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
1/39 = 2.6% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa
4/39 = 10.3% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) Western Asia
2/39 = 5.1% I-M170 - Near East
16/39 = 41.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) - Arabic
1/39 = 2.6% J2-M172 -Arabic
4/39 = 10.3% R1b1-P25 - Chadic


Nuba
Hill Nubians and others.(Central sudan)
(Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic)
46 % A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
14.2% B-M60 - Nilotic
14.2% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa
25 % E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa


Beja (Pastoralists; n=42; Afro-Asiatic, Cushitic?)
2/42 = 4.8% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
7/42 = 16.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa
2/42 = 4.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
13/42 = 31.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 -North East Africa
15/42 = 35.7% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
1/42 = 2.4% J2-M172 -Arabic
2/42 = 4.8% R1b1-P25 - Chadic


Arabs/Gaalien (Agriculturists; n=50; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic)
3/50 = 6.0% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa
3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a3-V22 North East Africa
5/50 = 10.0% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M 170, J-12f2, K-M9)Western Asia
2/50 = 4.0% I-M170 Near East
18/50 = 36.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
2/50 = 4.0% J2-M172 Arabic
3/50 = 6.0% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) Southwestern Asia
1/50 = 2.0% R1-M173(xR1b1-P25) Chadic
7/50 = 14.0% R1b1-P25 - Chadic


Arabs/Meseria (Nomadic Pastoralists; n=28; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic)
1/28 = 3.6% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
3/28 = 10.7% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa
3/28 = 10.7% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) Western Asia
2/28 = 7.1% I-M170 - South West Asia
12/28 = 42.9% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
7/28 = 25.0% R1b1-P25 - Chadic


Arabs/Arakien (Agriculturists; n=24; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic)
2/24 = 8.3% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) - North East Africa
1/24 = 4.2% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa
1/24 = 4.2% E1b1b1a3-V22 North East Africa
2/24 = 8.3% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) West Asia
16/24 = 66.7% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
2/24 = 8.3% R1b1-P25 Chadic

Sudanese Arab total:
3/102 = 2.9% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
6/102 = 5.9% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) - North East Africa
7/102 = 6.9% E1b1b1a1b-V32 - North East Africa
4/102 = 3.9% E1b1b1a3-V22 - North East Africa
10/102 = 9.8% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) West Asia
4/102 = 3.9% I-M170 South West Asia
46/102 = 45.1% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
2/102 = 2.0% J2-M172 - Arabic
3/102 = 2.9% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) - South west Asia
1/102 = 1.0% R1-M173(xR1b1-P25) - Chadic
16/102 = 15.7% R1b1-P25 - Chadic


Masalit (Agriculturists; n=32; Nilo-Saharan, Maban)
6/32 = 18.8% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
1/32 = 3.1% B-M60 - Nilotic
1/32 = 3.1% E1b1b1a-M78(xE1b1b1a1-V12, E1b1b1a2-V13, E1b1b1a3-V22, E1b1b1a4-V65) - North East Africa
17/32 = 53.1% E1b1b1a1b-V32 - North East Africa
5/32 = 15.6% E1b1b1a3-V22 - North East Africa
2/32 = 6.3% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic


Fur (Agriculturists; n=32; Nilo-Saharan, Fur)
10/32 = 31.3% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic
1/32 = 3.1% B-M60 - Nilotic
13/32 = 40.6% E1b1b1a1b-V32 - North East Africa
6/32 = 18.8% E1b1b1a3-V22 - North East Africa
2/32 = 6.3% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) - Arabic


Copts (Agriculturists; n=33; Afro-Asiatic, Ancient Egyptian > Semitic)
5/33 = 15.2% B-M60 - Nilotic
2/33 = 6.1% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa
5/33 = 15.2% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
13/33 = 39.4% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
2/33 = 6.1% J2-M172 - Arabic
1/33 = 3.0% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) - South West Asia
5/33 = 15.2% R1b1-P25 -- Chadic


Sudanese (Pastoralist/AgriPastoralist Nilotes (Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk) Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic)
A3B2 (28/53 = 52.8%), - Nilotic
B(16/53 = 30.2%), -Nilotic
E1b1b1a1 (V12+V22 +32)- 9/53 = 17.0%. - North East Africa


http://sudanforum.net/showthread.php?p=1474128


http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/04/brief-review-of-recent-mtdna-h-info.html


____________________________________________________________________


quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
Haplogroup J in itself is most likely African. J* peaks in territories near in or around Africa.

J2-M172 is African ...
J (Y-DNA), more than likely originated in East Africa also.

J1 moved into Yemen, While J2 spread from Egypt into the Levant

J1 were Nomads similar to the Beja and Tigre, While J2 were farmers in affiliation to Nile Valley populations.

Areas like Socotra (a few miles outside off of Somalia) still have the highest % of J*.

Both J1 and J2 have African origins...
J*(xJ1, J2) is the oldest form of J ever found, it was found in and near Africa.

70% J* in Socotra (Cerny)
7.7% J* in Oman (Di Giacomo)

According to the most recent studies, most of the "Eurasian" tagged haplogroups developed either in Africa or originated among populations who spanned between both "Southwest Asia" and Africa.

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Firewall
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Early sudan

Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan

http://etd2.uofk.edu/view_etd.php?etd_details=4312

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Firewall
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This deals with sudan and other places in africa.


Nilotic peoples

Regions with significant populations
Nile Valley, African Great Lakes, southwestern Ethiopia

Languages
Nilo-Saharan languages

Religion
traditional religion, Christianity

 -

1st row: Milton Obote • Alek Wek


2nd row: Salva Kiir Mayardit • Daniel arap Moi


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Cross country world champion and record holder Lornah Kiplagat, one of many prominent Nilotic distance runners.


Pokot women trekking through the Kenya outback.
 -


Nilotic men in Kapoeta, South Sudan.
 -


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Dinka politician John Garang amongst Nilotic supporters in South Sudan.


Genetics

A Y-chromosome study by Wood et al. (2005) tested various populations in Africa for paternal lineages, including 26 Maasai and 9 Luo from Kenya and 9 Alur from the Democratic Republic of Congo. The signature Nilotic paternal marker Haplogroup A3b2 was observed in 27% of the Maasai, 22% of the Alur, and 11% of the Luo. Haplogroup B, another characteristically Nilotic paternal marker according to Gomes et al. (2010), was found in 22% of Wood et al.'s Luo samples and 8% of the studied Maasai. The E1b1b haplogroup was also observed in 50% of the Maasai, which is indicative of substantial gene flow into this population from Cushitic males. In addition, 67% of the Alur samples possessed the Sub-Saharan E2 haplogroup.

Another study by Hassan et al. (2008) analysed the Y-DNA of populations in the Sudan region, with various local Nilotic groups included for comparison. The researchers found the signature Nilotic A and B clades to be the most common paternal lineages amongst the Nilo-Saharan speakers, except those inhabiting western Sudan, where an appreciable North African influence was noted. Haplogroup A was observed amongst 62% of Dinka, 53.3% of Shilluk, 46.4% of Nuba, 33.3% of Nuer, 31.3% of Fur and 18.8% of Masalit. Haplogroup B was found in 50% of Nuer, 26.7% of Shilluk, 23% of Dinka, 14.3% of Nuba, 3.1% of Fur and 3.1% of Masalit. The E1b1b clade was also observed in 71.9% of the Masalit, 59.4% of the Fur, 39.3% of the Nuba, 20% of the Shilluk, 16.7% of the Nuer, and 15% of the Dinka. Hassan et al. attributed the atypically high frequencies of the haplogroup in the Masalit to either a recent population bottleneck that likely altered the community's original haplogroup diversity or to geographical proximity to E1b1b's place of origin in North Africa, where the researchers suggest that the clade "might have been brought to Sudan from[...] after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000–8,000 years ago". Henn et al. (2008) similarly observed Afro-Asiatic influence in the Nilotic Datog of northern Tanzania, 43% of whom carried the M293 sub-clade of E1b1b.


mtDNA

Unlike their paternal DNA 543, the maternal lineages of Nilotes in general show low-to-negligible amounts of Afro-Asiatic and other extraneous influences. An mtDNA study by Castri et al. (2008) examined the maternal ancestry of various Nilotic populations in Kenya, with Turkana, Samburu, Maasai and Luo individuals sampled. Almost all of the tested Nilotes belonged to various Sub-Saharan macro-haplogroup L sub-clades, including L0, L2, L3, L4 and L5. Low levels of maternal gene flow from North Africa and the Horn of Africa were also observed in a few groups, mainly via the presence of mtDNA haplogroup M and haplogroup I lineages in about 12.5% of the Maasai and 7% of the Samburu samples, respectively.


Autosomal DNA
The autosomal DNA of Nilotic peoples has been examined in a comprehensive study by Tishkoff et al. (2009) on the genetic affiliations of various populations in Africa. According to the researchers, Nilotes generally form their own Sub-Saharan genetic cluster. The authors also found that certain Nilotic populations in the eastern Great Lakes region, such as the Maasai, showed some additional Afro-Asiatic affinities due to repeated assimilation of Cushitic-speaking peoples over the past 5000 or so years.


Anthropology
Physically, Nilotes are noted for their typically very dark skin color and slender, tall bodies. They often possess exceptionally long limbs, particularly vis-a-vis the distal segments (forearms, calves). This characteristic is thought to be a climatic adaptation to allow their bodies to shed heat more efficiently.

Sudanese Nilotes are regarded as one of the tallest people in the world. Roberts and Bainbridge (1963) reported average values of 182.6 cm (71.9") for height and 58.8 kg (129.6 lbs) for weight in a sample of Sudanese Shilluk. Another sample of Sudanese Dinka had a stature/weight ratio of 181.9 cm/58.0 kg (71.6"/127.9 lbs), with an extremely ectomorphic somatotype of 1.6-3.5-6.2.

In terms of facial features, Hiernaux (1975) observed that the nasal profile most common amongst Nilotic populations is broad, with characteristically high index values ranging from 86.9 to 92.0. He also reported that lower nasal indices are often found amongst Nilotes who inhabit the more southerly Great Lakes region, such as the Maasai, a fact which he attributed to genetic differences.

Additionally, it has been remarked that the Nilotic groups presently inhabiting East Africa are sometimes also smaller in stature than those residing in the Sudan region. Campbell et al. (2006) recorded measurements of 172.0 cm/53.6 kg (67.7"/118.2 lbs) in a sample of agricultural Turkana in northern Kenya, and of 174.9 cm/53.0 kg (68.8"/116.8 lbs) in pastoral Turkana. Hiernaux similarly listed a height of 172.7 cm (68") for Maasai in southern Kenya, with an extreme trunk/leg length ratio of 47.7.


Many Nilotic groups also excel in long and middle distance running. It has been argued that this sporting prowess stems from their exceptional running economy, which in turn is a function of slim body morphology and slender legs, as well as a culture of running to school from a young age. A study by Pitsiladis et al. (2006) questioning 404 elite Kenyan distance runners found that 76% of the international-class respondents hailed from the Kalenjin ethnic group and that 79% spoke a Nilotic language.

Some
References


^ The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (2004). "Nilotic". Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company. Retrieved 11 January 2013.


^ a b c Elizabeth T Wood, Daryn A Stover, Christopher Ehret et al., "Contrasting patterns of Y chromosome and mtDNA variation in Africa: evidence for sex-biased demographic processes", European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 867–876. (cf. Appendix A: Y Chromosome Haplotype Frequencies)


^ Gomes V, Sánchez-Diz P, Amorim A, Carracedo A, Gusmão L, Digging deeper into East African human Y chromosome lineages, Hum Genet. 2010 Mar;127(5):603-13. Epub 2010 Mar 6.

^ Cruciani et al., "Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa", Am J Hum Genet. 2004 May; 74(5): 1014–1022

^ Hassan, Hisham Y. et al. (2008), Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History, American Journal of Physical Anthropology (2008), Volume: 137, Issue: 3, Pages: 316-323

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Firewall
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Has for the nuba it seems they are treated has one group,but within the group there are differences.

There are different cultures,that's why i read awhile ago they were not a ethnic group,but different groups within the region.

They seem more of a regional group,that's why they are treated has one.

Nuba peoples
Nuba is a collective term used here for the peoples who inhabit the Nuba Mountains of South Kordofan state, in Sudan. Although the term is used to describe them as if they composed a single group, the Nuba are multiple distinct peoples and speak different languages. Estimates of the Nuba population vary widely; the Sudanese government estimated that they numbered 1.07 million in 2003.

Languages
Most of the Nuba peoples speak one of the many languages in the geographic Kordofanian languages group of the Nuba Mountains. This language group is in the major Niger–Congo languages family. Several Nuba languages are in the Nilo-Saharan languages family.
Over one hundred languages are spoken in the area and are considered Nuba languages, although many of the Nuba also speak Sudanese Arabic, the official language of Sudan.

Note- there number is higher then what is said above.they maybe close to 2million or more.

The man at rescuenubia.com told me there maybe up to 5 million of them,because the sudanese government before south sudan split and further nuba full blown rebellion did not count enough of them.
Who knows.

Anyway they are working together and with the darfur rebels and eastern front and they doing a good job so far defending themselves from the arabized africans.

I wanted to see a separted dna profile for hill nubians,the Midob,the Birgid,and those of kenya etc..


# Nobiin (previously known by the geographic terms Mahas or Fadicca/Fiadicca).
# Midob (Meidob) in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
# Kenzi-Dongolawi, the largest Nubian language, with over a million speakers. May be closest to Birgid.

# Birgid – originally spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei until the 1970s. The last surviving aged speakers were interviewed by Thelwall at this time. Some equally aged speakers on Gezira Aba just north of Kosti on the Nile south of Khartoum were interviewed by Thelwall in 1980.

# Hill Nubian – a group of closely related dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains – in particular Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru.
The Midob.there languages is not extinct.


The Birgid language is mostly exinct but the not culture the the people.many of them live in chad it seems.

That's why i would like to have each group break down,and know the dna info for each instead of the nuba being treated has a ethnic group,because they are not.
They seem to be more of a region group and force to be closer because of the arab raids and the ARABIZED blacks treat them has one but they are different ethnic groups in the nuba hills.


That's were the confusion for some come in.

The nuba are treated has one,but they are different ethnic groups.


The hill nubians,i would like to know their dna profile separately from the other nuba.

I WOULD like to know the dna profile of nubians in darfur but i have not seen any info so for.it would be basically the same has the hill nubians and the rest of nuba but i would at least like to see that info.


Check the info below Has for the nuba.


This info goes into more detail on why the nuba is not a ethnic group but just a regional group treat has one because that how the arabs see them and they were forced to work together.


I WISH MORE AFRICANS or blacks worldwide were more like them.


We NEED MORE UNITY,AND THEY ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE.

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Hill Nubian languages
Hill Nubian is a dialect continuum of Nubian languages spoken in the Nuba Hills of Sudan.


The ethnically and linguistically fragmented situation indicates that the Nuba Mountains have in all probability served as a retreat area. This may have happened at various times in history for basically two reasons. The first would be climatological: the desiccation of the Sahara has certainly time and again impelled people to migrate in search of more abundant water, either to remaining rivers and lakes, or just more generally southwards. In a more close-up perspective the driving forces are on the whole politico-economical. Looking at the map it is not difficult to find the areas of power concentrations from which people might have found it expedient to seek refuge. To the north, the Sahel empires have succeeded each other for centuries. The period of intensive slave-raids over a century ago was a severe threat and a bitter experience for the southern neighbours of Kordofan (i.e., El Obeid). South of the Nuba Mountains, the large and compact area occupied by Dinka and Nuer speakers also has the appearance of a relatively recent centre of expansion. Therefore, we should not overlook the possibility that some present-day inhabitants of the Nuba Mountains came there from the south.

2. The Evidence

The ten language groups established by the MacDiarmids (1931) can serve us well as a point of departure. They are lexicostatistically definable as having an internal cohesion of not less than 45%, based on a 100-word list. The groups and their internal distances (rounded off to multiples of five) are:


1. Heiban 45%
2. Narrow Talodi 65%
3. Tegem (=Lafofa) -
4. Rashad 55%
5. Katla 50%
6. Kadugli 60%
7. Nyimang 60%
8. Temein 60%
9. Daju 60%
10. Nubian 85%

Stevenson (1956-57) summarizes all significant research on Nuba Mountain language to that date, and is also based on his immense collection of manuscript data, largely unpublished, though summary extracts form the main basis for the relevant sections in Tucker and Bryan (1956, 1966). Those publications also contain detailed maps of distribution on which our Map 1 is based. Thelwall (1978, 1981a,b) and Schadeberg (1981a,b) provide subclassifications of most language groups, which will be summarized further on.


The first eight groups listed above are confined to the Nuba Mountains; Daju and Nubian are the only ones that have close connections outside. Our argumentation makes critical use of such information. However, the fact that Nyimang, Temein, Daju and Nubian have all been classified - together with Nilotic and several other language groups - as Eastern Sudanic has no consequence in our present context. Different branches of Eastern Sudanic are very distant from each other; they generally share less than 20% in lexicostatistic terms. Since there are no indications that the Nuba Mountains were the original home of Eastern Sudanic such distant genetic links are judged to be unconnected with the appearance of those four language groups in the Nuba Mountains.

The affiliation of Kadugli is presently open (see Schadebert 1981c). Again, nothing in our argumentation depends on remote possible links with Nilo-Saharan. On the other hand, the fact that groups (1) through (5) may be classified as Kordofanian, and that all Kordofanian languages are spoken exclusively within the Nuba Mountains is certainly relevant. Our hypotheses about the relative chronology of the influx of the various groups are based on these three types of clues about each language group: (i) internal diversity, (ii) immediate external genetic links, and (iii) geographical distribution. Naturally, other evidence such as loanwords and historical traditions should be taken into account as they become available.

3. Hill Nubian
Figure 1: Subclassification of Nubian
 -


Nubian is a language group which presently spreads from Darfur to the Nile (see Map 2). The most prudent interpretation of our lexicostatistical data (Thelwall 1978, 1981a) leads to the subclassification shown in figure 1.

4. Daju
Figure 2: Subclassification of Daju
 -


For the Daju also we have good linguistic evidence and scanty but cogent historical tradition. Languages of the Daju group are presently spoken in Wadai, Darfur, the Nuba Mountains and Bahr el Ghazal (see Map 2). The subclassification in Figure 2 emerges from the work of Thelwall (1978, 1981a,b).


5. Nyimang; Temein; Kadugli
Figure 3: Subclassification of Nyimang and Temein
 -


Nyimang and Temein are two small language families, each consisting of two or three languages, all spoken exclusively in the Nuba Mountains. They have been classified as two (out of ten) branches of Eastern Sudanic. Genetic relationships within Eastern Sudanic are too distant - and too uncertain - as to permit any inferences about migration at the time depth with which we are here concerned. We can only note that both groups show an internal divergence of about 60% (see Figure 3). The data are taken from Thelwall (1981a).


Figure 4: Subclassification of Kadugli
Note that Stevenson's division into Eastern, Central and Western Kadugli is only in part borne out by this calculation; in particular, his Eastern division consisting of Keiga, Kamdang and Kanga/Kufa appears to be non-coherent.


Figure 5: The major branches of Kordofanian

The outside relations of Kordofanian are too distant to be relevant in the present context. The whole Kordofanian language family is located within the Nuba Mountains where it occupies the most central and most widespread geographical position (see Map 1). There appears to be a continuous history of branching, beginning with a (presently assumed) four-way split into Katla, Heiban, Talodi and Rashad. This primary split must have preceded the subsequent split of Talodi into Tegem and Narrow Talodi (25%). On the basis of this evidence it is clearly indicated that the development of Kordofanian occurred in the Nuba Mountains, and that Kordofanian has the longest linguistic history in this area.


1. Kordofanian

2. Nyimang; Temein; Kadugli
3. Daju I: Shatt, Liguri
4. Hill Nubian
5. Daju II: Lagawa


Map 1: Language distribution in the Nuba Mountains
 -


Map 2: The distribution of the Nubian and Daju language groups
 -


_______________________


History of the Nuba, part I
Introduction

The Nuba are a group of peoples who share a common geography in Sudan’s Southern Kordofan Province, known as Jibal al-Nuba or Nuba Mountains. The origins of most Nuba peoples are obscure, but there is no doubt that they are Africans. They arrived to the area from various directions and in the course of thousands of years. Today there are over fifty Nuba tribes, who speak as many different languages. Their combined number is estimated at 2.5 million people.


3. The Nuba on the Nile and the Nuba in the Mountains.
Of course it’s tempting to draw a line from the Nile south-eastward. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to provide the Nuba with an ancestry that goes well beyond the arrival of the Arab conquerors? Al right: the Nuba came to the Nile Kingdoms after the time of the Pharaohs, so we forget about Kush and the rule over Egypt… but three ancient Kingdoms that lasted from roughly 400 to 1600 BC wouldn’t be bad, would it?


Well, to begin with: for the majority of the Nuba tribes there is nothing to suggest a relationship with the Nuba on the Nile. No archaeological finds, no linguistic relationships. The only Nuba tribes that can be linked to the Nuba on the Nile, are those speaking one of the Nubian languages. In order to understand more about the relationship between the two groups, we need to look into linguistics classifications.


The basic idea behind linguistic classification is that people speaking the same language can drift apart, after which the language develops differently in the two groups. After so many hundreds of years this leads to the creation of two different languages. Linguists look at lexicological, grammatical and structural aspects of different languages to group them according to affiliation. With the help of standard word lists they can determine the level of proximity between two affiliated languages.


Researchers of the nineteenth century already acknowledged the linguistic affiliation between the Nuba on the Nile, several Nuba tribes in the Mountains and some scattered communities in Darfur.12 They all speak Nubian languages, classified with the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan language family. For a long time, the burning question was: did the Nuba in the Mountains come from the Nile, or did the Nuba on the Nile come from the west?


Despite the Arab conquest of Egypt and the ensuing Islamisation, the people along the Nile in Lower Nubia retained their original language, known as Nubian, or Nobiin for linguists. Closely related to Nobiin is Dongolawi, spoken up the river around Dongola in present day Sudan. Nobiin and Dongolawi probably drifted apart about 1100 years ago – give or take a century or two. Their languages, and specially Nobiin, are considered to be remnants of Old-Nubian, spoken in the Chrsitian Kingdoms of Nobatia, Dongola and Alwa.


Both Nobiin and Dongolawi are related to the so-called Hill Nubian languages of the Nuba Mountains and Darfur. The tribes that speak Hill-Nubian include those of Dilling, Kadaru and Ghulfan; Wali, Karko, Habila, Debri and some tribes more to the West like Tabag and Abu Jinuk.13 Looking at their geographical dispersion, you can imagine them coming from the northeast, some entering the Nuba Mountains from the side of Kadaru, some moving on westward around the Nyimang hills.


This combines well with events at the Nile in the 13th century AD. After centuries of stability, Bedouin tribes driven south by the Mameluks14 , started raiding Makuria. To the east the Beja were harassing Egypt and the Mameluks decided that if Makuria couldn’t keep the Beja in check, it was time to take matters in their own hands. The region was completely destabilised and we can imagine the people from Makuria fleeing south, until they found refuge in the Nuba Mountains. Makes sense, doesn’t it?


Well… to make a long story longer: linguistic evidence rules against it. Apart from Nobiin, Dongolawi and Hill-Nubian, there are two other Nubian language group: Birgid and Meidob, found further to the west scattered over Darfur (Meidob being extinct by now). Combining linguistic data from the different Nubian languages, J.H. Greenberg concluded that ‘to assume any split between Hill Nubian and Nile Nubian more recent than 2,500 years B.P. [before present] would be incorrect.’


Of course we can’t give up a beautiful ancestry that easily: C. Herzog noticed that some Hill-Nubian languages have Christian words for days of the week, and other loan words too: the Nuba in Kordofan came from the Nile after all! But R. Thelwall wasn’t impressed:


We are very confident that Nobiin (and later Dongolawi) came to the Nile from a centre of dispersion in Darfur-Kordofan which they occupied and controlled for perhaps 4000 years. We know that there were Nubian speakers on the Nile at least as early as the 500s CE and probably much earlier. The fact that the Hill Nubian languages have words for the days of the week dating back to Christian Nubian indicates that these languages were in contact at least during the Christian Nubian period which probably covers 500 CE - 1400 CE. This does not necessarily mean that the Hill Nubians did more than expand from central Kordofan into the NubaMountains during the period of Nubian political dominance from Aswan to Kosti (at least). But given the location of the Hill Nubian speakers (Dair, Dilling, Karko etc) along the NE edge of the Mountains it appears that they were "incomers" settling among the existing Nyima and Temein groups who were there before them.


2. The classification of Nuba languages
Maybe systematic archaeological research could shed more light on the origins of the Nuba people, but right now we will have to concentrate on linguistic findings. Linguistics is a complex field, not very sexy to be honest, but in many cases, it’s all we have. So we will first look at the classification of the different Nuba languages, and then move on to the question of who came to the Mountains at what time.

The Nuba Languages can be classified into members of two or perhaps three language families: Nilo-Saharan and Kordofanian.

A. The Kordofanian languages consist of four groups located in the southern and eastern areas of the Nuba Mountains: Heiban, Talodi, Rashad and Katla. Kordofanian languages are considered a branch of the Niger-Congo family, which encompasses all Bantu languages, and in general most of the languages spoken in Sub-Saharan Africa. The only thing is: Kordofanian doesn’t resemble any of the other Niger-Congo languages closely. It constitutes a group of its own and geographically also, Kordofanian is isolated. In other words: we don’t have a clue as to how these Kordofanian speaking Nuba ended up in the Nuba Mountain.

B. The Kadugli Group is located in the south east central fringe area near Kadugli. It was earlier classified as part of Kordofanian but is currently considered part of Nilo-Saharan. This is another large phylum: Dinka and Nuer are Nilo-Saharan languages, and so are many languages of Chad and Congo, as well as several languages spoken in Nigeria.


C. The rest of the Nuba languages are classified as part of a major sub-group of Nilo-Saharan called Eastern Sudanic. They consist of Hill Nubian, Daju, Timein and Nyimang. The tribes speaking Eastern Sudanic languages can be found in the north western areas of the Mountains.


3. Linguistic settlement

As we’ve just seen in the case of the Nubian speakers, shifts in related languages can tell us something about how long ago the speakers of those languages went their own way. Unfortunately this is not very exact, as Robin Thellwall explained to me:

[the] reconstructions are based minimally on linguistic distance and extrapolated onto a fairly speculative time frame (glotto-chronology). Such a time framework is only a provisional and relative model to be tested against other evidence (archaeology, oral traditions, blood types, climate history, agricultural and animal husbandry terminology etc). This has not happened for the NubaMountains.

However, for ‘The Linguistic Settlement of the Nuba in the Mountains’ Thelwall and Schadeberg20 analysed all the available data from the Nuba languages, and they came up with the following hypothesis regarding the relative chronology of the linguistic settlement of the Mountains:

1. Kordofanian language speakers came earlier than all the others

2. Nyimang; Temein and Kadugli language groups followed them

3. Daju speakers of Shatt and Liguri were next

4. Hill Nubian speakers – probably somewhere between 500 and 1400 AD

5. Daju speakers around Lagawa, who settled there relatively recently.

4. Kordofanian

Heiban, Katla, Rashad and Talodi are the current names for the different groups of Kordofanian languages that cover the eastern half of the Nuba Mountains and a large part of the centre. Within the language group, differentiation has progressed much further than in the other Nuba language groups. According to R. Thelwall ‘the family has a time depth of a minimum of 6000 years.’21 This means that you would have to go back at least 6000 years in time to find all Kordofanian speakers speaking the same language. Kordofanian is classified with the Niger-Congo languages, and the nearest Niger-Congo speaking people would be found over the border of Sudan in southern Chad, in Central African Republic and in the Congo. The relationship between Kordofanian and the rest of Niger-Congo is not clear. The current subdivision of Kordofanian is as follows:

5. Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli


These three language groups are unique, like the Kordofanian languages, in the fact that they are only spoken in the Nuba Mountains. Judging from the large internal linguistic diversity within each group, the Nyimang, Temein and Kadugli speaking tribes might well have been in the Mountains for more than 2000 years.30 They seem to have come to the Nuba Mountains in tough times, with a lot of people on the move, losing touch with one another. In the words of Thellwal and Schadeberg:


6. Hill Nubian

As discussed at length above, the Hill Nubian speaking tribes came to the Mountains from the North, probably before 1400 AD. The different languages are classified as follows:

Ghulfan and Kadaru are grouped together. Ghulfan is spoken in Ghulfan Kurgul and Ghulfan Morung; Kadaru in the hill communites of Kadaru, Kururu, Kafir, Kurtala, Dabatna and Kuldaji.
Dilling is spoken in the town and the surrounding villages

Dair, in the western and southern parts of Jebel Dair

Karko in the Karko Hills and Dulman; maybe also Abu Jinik and Tabaq.

Wali in the Wali Hills

Thelwall and Schadeberg can’t say more as to why or when exactly the Hill Nubians migrated south:

Whether this occurred due to pressure from Arab nomads as Arkell proposes, or whether an earlier date should be assumed is not clear. The relative closeness of the Hi1l Nubian dialects to each other does not suggest the presence of isolated Nubian communities in these hills for several millennia.
It was probably a gradual process. R. C. Stevenson writes:


Nubian speech was brought to the northern NubaMountains by tribal movements accelerated by the Arab influx during the past few centuries. In Rüppell’s time (mid 1820s) it was still spoken on the plains south of El Obeid.

7. The Daju speaking tribes

The Daju speaking tribes came to the Nuba Mountains from the west, from a Daju Kingdom that we know conveniently little about. The Kingdom was based, as early perhaps as 1200 AD, in Jebel Marrah, a rain-fed mountain range in an otherwise arid country. The Daju controlled the area between southern Jebel Marra and the western edges of the Nuba Mountains. They were displaced by the Tunjur at the end of the fourteenth century, and left no records besides a list of kings that ends with King Kasi Furogé. The Daju were scattered by the Tunjur and we find them back in some isolated pockets across a wide area of Chad and Sudan, in the regions of Kordofan, Darfur, and Wadai.

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Djehuti
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^ There's so much info you posted Firewall. Too much for me to address at one time, though I've been meaning to address your first post of the genetic data. I will say that the Nilo-Saharan language phylum tends to displays the most diversity in Sudan, especially in the Kordofan province of central Sudan which holds a number of long isolated cultural groups and languages. The Kordofan region itself is a sprachbund (group of languages of diverse origins that have developed some striking structural similarities over time) area holding some Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo, and a few isolates.
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Modern sudan

Huhmmmm, some Arabic tribes moved into Africa recently. Hence the o.p. posted Sample of Arab Nubians taken. You took out the Arab part, for some funny reason.


I wouldn't be surprised if most of the data and claims, would actually represent these recent immigrate populations.


quote:
  • Nubians possess more tropically adapted leg limbs and a more linear body plan compared to Egyptians. This was expected since Nubians are situated further south and closer to Sub-Saharan Africa.
  • Brachial index, crural index, bi-iliac breadth, and body surface area to body mass (BSA/BM) were analyzed by region to test whether Upper Egyptians and Nubians possess a more tropical body plan compared to populations from the northern region of Egypt. These were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995).

--Raxter
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide Comparison


quote:
"Analysis of Predinastic skeletal material showed tropical African elements in the population of the earliest populations of the earliest Badarian culture" [...]
--Frank Yurco


quote:
Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
--Sonia R. Zakrzewski, American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003


quote:
The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods&time; studied.
--Am J Phys Anthropol, 2007.


Recent immigrants also can carry aDNA.

For example an Nigerian immigrant in the U.S.A. carries aDNA. Guess which?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

[*]Nubians possess more tropically adapted leg limbs and a more linear body plan compared to Egyptians. This was expected since Nubians are situated further south and closer to Sub-Saharan Africa.
[*]Brachial index, crural index, bi-iliac breadth, and body surface area to body mass (BSA/BM) were analyzed by region to test whether Upper Egyptians and Nubians possess a more tropical body plan compared to populations from the northern region of Egypt. These were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995).
[/list]

--Michelle Raxter
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide Comparison



 -
Holliday et al 2013

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - Holliday et al. (2009)


I don't know about the European element but these Holliday articles are not corresponding to Raxter
Holliday places Nubians with a less tropical body plan than Egyptians
and Kermans on the other hand, with a more tropical body plan than Egyptians.
Did he use the same Nubian data in 2013 that was in the 2009 article? I don't know

________________________________

- the Raxter quote also indicates:

"these were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995)."

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Firewall
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Modern sudan

Huhmmmm, some Arabic tribes moved into Africa recently. Hence the o.p. posted Sample of Arab Nubians taken. You took out the Arab part, for some funny reason.


I believe the sample was for the nubians of the nile valley that's why i took out the arab part,but you could be right and these could be the arab nubians,but one problem sudan does not have arab nubians in the census,only egypt has that.

Sudan have arabized nubians but most are called arabs first like Gaalien etc...,but these would be called arabized nubians,but on the census they are just called arabs and not arab nubians.

There are arabized hill nubians and darfur nubians but the only thing really arabized about then is that they speak arabic mostly first,but they still speak thier nubian language and thie rculture still still nubian,so i do not why they called arabized because thier culture is still mostly nubian,and they see themselves has nubian and in the census still are nubians.

So arabized could mean varied things it seem.


The sample was for the nile valley modern nubians of sudan.


The other interesting thing is that there are more nubians outside the nile valley in sudan then in the nile,like the darfur nubians and hill nubians.


I should have posted them instead,but some nubians of the nile valley of sudan do look like white arabs or turks so i guess when they i mean nubian these days it could be white or black,like hispanic,so i agree we have to be careful on who they are testing just like they do with late ancient egypt or modern egypt.

Of course most nubians are still black but you do have some that do not look black in egypt and sudan and i was shocked when i first saw them on tv a few years ago calling themselves nubians,but they do not call themselves black i heard recently.


So you do have nile nubians of egypt and sudan that are not really black,but nubians outside the nile in sudan,kenya,chad etc...are only black and i do not see any arab white looking types in those nubian groups.

I GUESS they had enough of the few whites coming into the nile, like those arab invaders overtime and thier the brainwashed black arabs so they went further south and south west years to better protect themselves and doing a good job at.


Here are links with out the arab part below dealing with the nile valley.
Check it out.

The info inside just says nubian,not arab nubian.

Brief review of recent mtDNA H info

http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/04/brief-review-of-recent-mtdna-h-info.html

and
sudaneseonline.com

/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=
http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=88

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Firewall
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Oh,that first link in my last post i did post already in this thread,i almost forgot i did that.

Lucky i looked again.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

[*]Nubians possess more tropically adapted leg limbs and a more linear body plan compared to Egyptians. This was expected since Nubians are situated further south and closer to Sub-Saharan Africa.
[*]Brachial index, crural index, bi-iliac breadth, and body surface area to body mass (BSA/BM) were analyzed by region to test whether Upper Egyptians and Nubians possess a more tropical body plan compared to populations from the northern region of Egypt. These were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995).
[/list]

--Michelle Raxter
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide Comparison



 -
Holliday et al 2013

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - Holliday et al. (2009)


I don't know about the European element but these Holliday articles are not corresponding to Raxter
Holliday places Nubians with a less tropical body plan than Egyptians
and Kermans on the other hand, with a more tropical body plan than Egyptians.
Did he use the same Nubian data in 2013 that was in the 2009 article? I don't know

________________________________

- the Raxter quote also indicates:

"these were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995)."

As usually you tweak and twist. Which again speaks against you. Proving that the immigrant population was cold adapted.

Explore:

"Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - Holliday et al. (2009)"


quote:
"Analysis of Predinastic skeletal material showed tropical African elements in the population of the earliest populations of the earliest Badarian culture" [...]
--Frank Yurco


quote:
Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
--Sonia R. Zakrzewski, American Journal of Physical Anthropology
Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003


quote:
The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods&time; studied.
--Am J Phys Anthropol, 2007.
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Ish Geber
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 -

Ps. Nubians are within the same line of the dendrogram. As the assumed populations with similar postcranial variable set..


Anyway, I can't see what this variable set implies, do you?

In older studies the author Holliday TW. clearly shows that Africans, historically, overall are tropical adapted. Whereas Arabs and Europeans aren't. Raxter also indirectly stated the same, by implying they became "quickly tropical" thou I think she had different intentions. LOL

quote:
Replacement predicts that the earliest modern Europeans will possess "tropical" body proportions (assuming Africa is the center of origin), while Regional Continuity permits only minor shifts in body shape, due to climatic change and/or improved cultural buffering. This study tests these predictions via analyses of osteometric data reflective of trunk height and breadth, limb proportions and relative body mass for samples of Early Upper Paleolithic (EUP), Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) and Mesolithic (MES) humans and 13 recent African and European populations.
--Holliday TW
J Hum Evol. 1997 May;32(5):423-48.
Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins.

quote:
What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the
Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western
Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68


quote:
In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE.
Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.


quote:
Migration within a larger time framework took place ca. 15,000--18,000 BP, when the first Asian populations crossed the Bering Strait, ultimately founding the modern Amerindian population. Despite having as much as 18,000 years of selection in environments as diverse as those found in the Old World, body mass and proportion clines in the Americas are less steep than those in the Old World (Newman, 1953; Roberts, 1978). In fact, as Hulse (1960) pointed out, Amerindians, even in the tropics, tend to possess some ''arctic'' adaptations. Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992). This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."
-- Holliday T.(1997). Body proportions
in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern
human origins. Jrnl Hum Evo. 32:423-447


quote:
Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans should not exhibit tropically-adapted limb proportions, since, even assuming replacement, their ancestors had experienced cold stress in glacial Europe for at least 12 millennia. [...] Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. [...] The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
--Holliday TW
J Hum Evol. 1999 May;36(5):549-66.
Brachial and crural indices of European late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Modern sudan

Huhmmmm, some Arabic tribes moved into Africa recently. Hence the o.p. posted Sample of Arab Nubians taken. You took out the Arab part, for some funny reason.


I believe the sample was for the nubians of the nile valley that's why i took out the arab part,but you could be right and these could be the arab nubians,but one problem sudan does not have arab nubians in the census,only egypt has that.

Sudan have arabized nubians but most are called arabs first like Gaalien etc...,but these would be called arabized nubians,but on the census they are just called arabs and not arab nubians.

There are arabized hill nubians and darfur nubians but the only thing really arabized about then is that they speak arabic mostly first,but they still speak thier nubian language and thie rculture still still nubian,so i do not why they called arabized because thier culture is still mostly nubian,and they see themselves has nubian and in the census still are nubians.

So arabized could mean varied things it seem.


The sample was for the nile valley modern nubians of sudan.


The other interesting thing is that there are more nubians outside the nile valley in sudan then in the nile,like the darfur nubians and hill nubians.


I should have posted them instead,but some nubians of the nile valley of sudan do look like white arabs or turks so i guess when they i mean nubian these days it could be white or black,like hispanic,so i agree we have to be careful on who they are testing just like they do with late ancient egypt or modern egypt.

Of course most nubians are still black but you do have some that do not look black in egypt and sudan and i was shocked when i first saw them on tv a few years ago calling themselves nubians,but they do not call themselves black i heard recently.


So you do have nile nubians of egypt and sudan that are not really black,but nubians outside the nile in sudan,kenya,chad etc...are only black and i do not see any arab white looking types in those nubian groups.

I GUESS they had enough of the few whites coming into the nile, like those arab invaders overtime and thier the brainwashed black arabs so they went further south and south west years to better protect themselves and doing a good job at.


Here are links with out the arab part below dealing with the nile valley.
Check it out.

The info inside just says nubian,not arab nubian.

Brief review of recent mtDNA H info

http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/04/brief-review-of-recent-mtdna-h-info.html

and
sudaneseonline.com

/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=
http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=88

Yeah, you're right that Nubian is just a cluster name.

One should keep in mind that "Nubians", Southern Egyptians are endogamous people (who don't easily marry out) and always have been.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

[*]Nubians possess more tropically adapted leg limbs and a more linear body plan compared to Egyptians. This was expected since Nubians are situated further south and closer to Sub-Saharan Africa.
[*]Brachial index, crural index, bi-iliac breadth, and body surface area to body mass (BSA/BM) were analyzed by region to test whether Upper Egyptians and Nubians possess a more tropical body plan compared to populations from the northern region of Egypt. These were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995).
[/list]

--Michelle Raxter
Egyptian Body Size: A Regional and Worldwide Comparison



 -
Holliday et al 2013

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - Holliday et al. (2009)


I don't know about the European element but these Holliday articles are not corresponding to Raxter
Holliday places Nubians with a less tropical body plan than Egyptians
and Kermans on the other hand, with a more tropical body plan than Egyptians.
Did he use the same Nubian data in 2013 that was in the 2009 article? I don't know

________________________________

- the Raxter quote also indicates:

"these were compared to indices from archaeologically derived skeletons from various parts of the world (data from Holliday 1995)."

quote:
Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples
T. W. Holliday* 2013
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples T. W. Holliday* 2013
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence [/QB]

The dendogram is distingusihing Nubians from Jebel Sahabans.
Why I don't know.
I thought Jebel Sahabans were Nubians yet this chart indicates some sort of difference.
I think it must be that Jebel Sahabans are Upper Paleolithic whereas what is labeled here "Nubians" are later Merotic people with a different morphology
 -

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
In older studies the author Holliday TW. clearly shows that Africans, historically, overall are tropical adapted. Whereas Arabs and Europeans aren't. Raxter also indirectly stated the same, by implying they became "quickly tropical" thou I think she had different intentions. LOL

^The new post cranial proxy data again casts doubt
on the recent claims of Raxter. It is using post
cranial proxies as a stand in for direct limb
measurements and this might not be as strong as
direct limb data, but the overall pattern confirms
previous studies, which did use direct limb measurement data.

 -


RECAP for new readers:

Better nutrition does not necessariy mean intensive sedentary
agriculture. Better foraging and resources bases can boost nutrition as well.
In the Nile Valley, a substantial, mixed subsistence economy was long in
place. The ancient Egyptian Badarian, who in numerous studies cluster
with tropical Africans had a subbstantial population and resource base-
reflecting rich subsistence foraging and haversting, not merely sedentary
agriculture. Such mixed economies including harvesting of wild grains and
tubers is an early development in Africa and the Nile Valley scholars show,
without needing any outside settlers.
QUOTE:

"Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest
reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This
trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship
between body size and nutrition. In this case, the greater body size of early
hunter-gatherers may reflect the benefit of broadly based hunting and
gathering subsistence... Archaological evidence suggest that the Badarian
civilization had higher population density than did other contemporaneous
civilizations (Gabriel, 1987; Hassan 1988)."
--Pihnasi and Stock (2011) Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to
Agriculture

“The adoption of this broad adaptive strategy provided the large food
supply needed by a growing population, but achieving maximum
production called for a good deal of planning and the management of
labour. This marks the beginning of an organized food-producing system:
agriculture.” “Dating from more than 15,000 years ago, the evidence from
the Nile valley is arguably the earliest comprehensive instance of an
organized food-producing system known anywhere on Earth.”
--Africa: A Biography of the Continent, by John Reader, 1998, pp.
120-173


The transition to better nutrition & agriculture is associated with
increases in sexual dimorphism, a pattern also occurring in the studies of
ancient Americans.
Quote:
"The OK possesses the highest SDS of all temporal groups, including
individual Predynastic sites (Table 10; Figure 10). The greatest increase in
SDS is thus from the Predyn to OK." --Raxter 2011.


-----New World data - same pattern associated with better nutrition not
influxes of outsiders


"Finally body mass has long been recognized as a morphological trait
amongst humans that relates to ecogeographic patterns in association with
climate (Holliday, 1997, Rull 1994). However, Auerbach (2007) found
that the relationship between climatic factors and body mass amongst a
broad sample of New World groups was inconsistent and may have been
influenced by subsistence.. ..there is a similar trend amongst both males and
females: the agriculturalists are taller and more massive, on the average.
This is identical to patterns of diachronic change in stature documented
using different samples from the southeast... There is also a coincident
slight increase in sexual dimorphism among the agriculturalist samples,
accompanied by a slight increase in overall variance in stature, body mass
and bi-iliac breath.. In short, the long temporal perspective on the
development of agriculture in the Southeast may be characterized by
significant overall increases in body size for both males and females."
-- Pinhasi and Stock (2011). Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to
Agriculture


A rich, indigenous foraging and harvesting strategy is old news in
boosting better nutrition in ancient Africa.


“The adoption of this broad adaptive strategy provided the large food
supply needed by a growing population, but achieving maximum
production called for a good deal of planning and the management of
labour. This marks the beginning of an organized food-producing system:
agriculture.” “Dating from more than 15,000 years ago, the evidence from
the Nile valley is arguably the earliest comprehensive instance of an
organized food-producing system known anywhere on Earth.” --Africa: A
Biography of the Continent, J. Reader, 1998, 120-173


Long native settlement- No mass influx of outsiders-

QUOTE: “Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa does not
support demic diffusion of farming from the Near East. The evidence
presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early African farmers in the
Fayum initially incorporated Near Eastern domesticates into an
INDIGENOUS foraging strategy, and only over time developed a
dependence on horticulture. This is inconsistent with in-migrating farming
settlers, who would have brought a more abrupt change in subsistence
strategy. "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of Egypt..”

--Ehret, Keita, Newman, Bellwood (2004). The Origins of Afroasiatic
Science 3 v306, n5702, p1680
------------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------------------------------------------

RECAP transfer from Reloaded posting:


 -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raxter 2011 unpublished dissertation posits close relations between Mediterraneans and
Middle Easterners based on body mass indices. But such
connections in any mass way are dubious, and changes in body mass-
are associated with a shift to agriculture. Adaptation to cooler,
more temperate Nile Valley climes over millennia would also play a
part in any body changes. In short, there is no need for any
mass movement of "Mediterraneans" or "Middle Easterners" to give
the Nile Valley natives diversity in body mass. They already had
it as adapting to temperate climes and taking on more agriculture.


per Raxter:
"Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments. These results may also reflect the greater plasticity of limb length compared to body breadth.


^1-- Actually it doesn't automatically "suggest" AEs are
"closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or
Near Eastern groups." [/b] Connections between regions
occurred in all eras but the body mass data also shows that
the peoples of the Nile Valley had built-in native
variation as expected for the many different climes of Africa.
Tropical people adapted in Europe. They also adapted in
the Nile Valley, as they did on East African mountains, as
they did in humid jungle and dry savannah.

And as noted below, bi-ilac ranges/breadth are also
correlated with several other things such as changes
in diet and lifestyle as other scholars show. For example
agriculturalists tend to have greater body breath
than exclusively foraging/hunting peoples. It does
not automatically follow that greather breadth ranges
mean "circum-Mediterranean" relations. Rather the shift
to more dynastic agriculture, from a more mixed pre-
dynastic economy can well accommodate changes in body breath
without the need for any mass influx of "Near Easterners."

Bi-iliac ranges are correlated with many things
including thermoregulation and locomotion. They are also
correlated with stature, and with a shift to agriculture.
Hence an "intermediate" bi-iliac range could be easily
due to any of the above, including a shift from the
mixed economy pre-dynastics, to the more agricultural
early dynastic/dynastic types.

QUOTES:

"Furthermore bi-iliac breadth appears to change slowly over time,
likely due to multiple factors (thermoregulation, obstetrics,
locomotion) influencing its shape (Ruff 1994; Auerback 2007).."

"Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy
with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth
has been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach,
2007), this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes
correlated with subsistence economy."

"Any use of the bi-iliac breath/stature body mass estimations
would inherently reflect changes in stature.."


"In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to
evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the Nile
Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated
with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and
body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context
of models of relationship between body size and nutrition."
-- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011. Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture


And it should be noted that the pre-Dynastic
Badari, who cluster with tropical Africans were
ALREADY farming and stock-raising with some hunting/
foraging on the side. In other words, tropical
African variants were ALREADY engaging in the
agricultural practices that are correlated with greater
bi-iliac ranges. "Diffusion" from the Middle East
of plants such as wheat, is just that, diffusuion
that was adopted by the indigenous tropical variants
on their own terms. They could grow wheat or peas,
on their own ground, without needing any "wandering Caucasoids"
to be present. This is the precise point stated by Keita 2005,et al

QUOTE:
Furthermore, the archaeology of northern Africa does not
support demic diffusion of farming from the Near East.
The evidence presented by Wetterstrom indicates that early
African farmers in the Fayum initially incorporated Near
Eastern domesticates into an INDIGENOUS foraging strategy,
and only over time developed a dependence on horticulture.
This is inconsistent with in-migrating farming settlers,
who would have brought a more abrupt change in subsistence
strategy. "The same archaeological pattern occurs west of
Egypt, where domestic animals and, later, grains were
gradually adopted after 8000 yr B.P. into the established
pre-agricultural Capsian culture, present across the northern
Sahara since 10,000 yr B.P. From this continuity, it has been
argued that the pre-food-production Capsian peoples spoke
languages ancestral to the Berber and/or Chadic branches of
Afroasiatic, placing the proto-Afroasiatic period distinctly
before 10,000 yr B.P."

--Source: The Origins of Afroasiatic
Christopher Ehret, S. O. Y. Keita, Paul Newman;, and Peter Bellwood
Science 3 December 2004: Vol. 306. no. 5702, p. 1680
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PEr Raxter:
2--Stature regression equations derived from American Black populations may therefore not be appropriate to estimate the statures of ancient Egyptians.

^^In earlier studies (one of which Raxter herself did)
US Blacks as a tropial people were used as a stand-in
to estimate height of Ancient Egyptians. In those studies
Black AMericans were found to cluster closer to Ancient Egyotians
than EUropeans. That finding is not changed at all by Raxter's 2011 study.
In fact, the new study AGAIN confirms that tropical peoples have
similar limb proportions- hence Egyptians and Nubians cluster thereby.

Even if stature was over-estimated in earlier
studies as Raxter claims, the data STILL showed US
Blacks closer to AE proportions. Whether the use
of US blacks is "appropriate" to estimate the
statures of AEs makes little difference because
in limb to limb comparison, the AE's are closer
to the US blacks. Throw out the stature estimation
task and this central result STILL stands.

 -
Even if stature estimation is excluded the
bottom line results are STILL the same- the AE's
cluster more closely with US Blacks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Per Raxter:
3-- but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments.

^^A misleading claim by Raxter. Actually limb
length proportions do not "quickly" change, but
are heavily genetically embedded.

 -
Limb proportions DON'T "quickly" change. They are
rather slow in fact. Hence tropical proportions
found in the Nile Valley are not the product of
"Mediterranean" or "Middle Eastern" migrants who
"quickly" changed to "tropical Africans." Limb
proportions don't work that way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Per Raxter:
4-- The present results for bi-iliac breadth are also consistent with various genetic studies that have found modern Egyptians to have close affinities to Middle and Near Easterners (Manni et al., 2002; Arredi et al., 2004; Shepard and Herrera, 2006; Rowold et al., 2007) and Southern Europeans/Mediterranean groups (Capelli et al., 2006).
^^No surprise there. We all know MODERN Egyptians
are not identical to the ancients and are more
varied, a result that shows up in ancient samples as well.
Note below that Zakrewski found one widely used sampling
set was not at all typically Egyptian. And whether samples
were pooled or not pooled in other studies MADE LITTLE
DIFFERENCE. The AEs STILL cluster more with tropical
Africans than Europeans or "Middle Easterners."

 -
Some tail end sampling sets are not typical of Ancient Egypt.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Per Raxter
5--Some of these authors suggested their results may have been associated with a diffusion from the Near East during the expansion of early food-producing societies
^^Sure some plant and animal domesticates filtered
into AE from the "Middle East." That was never at
issue. But most of the archaelogical evidence shows
no mass influx of "Caucasoids" or "circum-Mediterranean"
types to instruct the natives. QUOTE:

Ovacaprines appear in the western desert before the Nile valley proper (Wendorf and Schild 2001). However, it is significant that ancient Egyptian words for the major Near Eastern domesticates - Sheep, goat, barley, and wheat - are not loans from either Semitic, Sumerian, or Indo-European. This argues against a mass settler colonization (at replacement levels) of the Nile valley from the Near East at this time. This is in contrast with some words for domesticates in some early Semitic languages, which are likely Sumerian loan words (Diakonoff 1981).. This evidence indicates that northern Nile valley peoples apparently incorporated the Near Eastern domesticates into a Nilotic foraging subsistence tradition on their own terms (Wetterstrom 1993). There was apparently no “Neolithic revolution” brought by settler colonization, but a gradual process of neolithicization (Midant-Reynes 2000).
-- Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation,
History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


6--Ancient Egyptians "as a whole"
Sure. If you lump in the more varied New Kingdom types
and Hyskos/Roman era/Greek era types you will get more variation.
Everyone knows the tail end period of AE had more variation.
Even Zakrewski says that one tail-end series is not
"typically" Egyptian. That was never at issue. What is at issue
is the genesis and maintenance of the pre-Dynastic
and early Dynastic period. Later periods were to
have a more mixed pattern, The 12th Dynasty for example
had several pharaohs of Nubian origin (Yurco 1989), as
did the 18th, as did the 25th. Raxter is eager to highlight
the "close links" with "circum-Mediterranean" types it seems, but not the other way.

 -

Whether stature estimation is involved makes little difference.
AEs STILL cluster more with Black Americans. ANd limb proportions
do not "quickly" change.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


7--RaXter's presentation doesnt make a dime's worth of difference
on the fact that based on limb proportions, AEs cluster more towards
Nubians and other tropical Africans than EUropeans or Middle Easterners.
Body breath indexes are accounted for via dietary/economic shifts and do
not necessarily point to any influx of "Middle Esterners" or "Mediterraneans"


Note how Raxter presents the data:

 -

A-- It is admitted that the AEs have more tropical proportions.
B-- It is admitted that the Nubians have even more tropical proportions.
C-- But then the author quickly leaps to highlight body breath and talk about close links with
Europe and the Mid East.

--In fact though, there are EVEN CLOSER links in A and B above
than C,
between Egytians and other Africans via limb
proportions. Highlighting body breadth cannot obscure this reality.


And if body breadth is "intermediate"- half of the "close links" - then the second half
of the body breath equation is with tropical Africans. If intermediate body
breadths tell about Euro/Mid East Links, then THE OTHER HALF LIKEWISE SPEAKS
OF AFRICAN LINKS. But how come Raxter never uses a consistent approach on
this count - on the flip side?

Raxter's blanket claim of Egyotians as a whole
is flawed. Her main data point is Lower Egypt. But
even this varied over time. In the early period,
the limb length proportions of northern samples,
per Kemp cited above show more affinities with
the Africans rather than the Europeans. Also
flawed is Raxter's blanket notion of "quickly developing"
tropical limb lengths, for which she offers little
clear evidence. To the contrary, as other scholars show,
limb proportions are relatively stable, genetically
embedded, and do not quickly change.

If anything the weight of the overall Nile Valley
picture also points to another alternative- that
of tropical Africans with extreme proportions-
having such proportions modified over the millennia by
(a) cooler Mediterranean temperatures of Egypt,
and (b) a shift to a more agricultural lifestyle.

The Egyptians are more similar to the Nubians via limb proportions.
Both peoples are from warm climes as Raxter notes.
Hence the link with US blacks on limb proportions,
another tropical people from warm climes, and
who have the same typical linear body build, IS
NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT AFFECTED. The limb proportion
data still stands. Body mass variation is accounted
for by (a) adaptation to cooler climates, and (b)
a shift to more agriculture. This does not at all
rule out small scale migration from the Levant/Maghreb.
We all know it occurred, as well as trade links,
prisoners taken in warfare from Palestine etc.
But mass influxes of "Mediterraneans" or "Middle Easterners"
are not at all needed to give the peoples of the
Nile Valley diversity or variation in body mass.


8 -- Adaption to environment is another way tropical peoples
may vary. Nasal shape for example can vary with the environment. Tropical
Africans moving into the Egypt and staying millennia would not
remain static without any changes caused by the environment.



Likewise in Europe, tropical African migrants gradually
got lighter skin colors, under cooler more temperate climates
or colder climates. There is no mass influx of cold-adapted
Neanderthals needed to explain such routine adaptation. Tropical
African variants adapted in temperate EUrope. ANd they adapted
in the temperate Nile Valley and/or the much fluctuating Saharan
climates in varying proportions. Tropical Africa it should also be noted
has numerous micro-climates- from cold thin altitude cloud
forest to sweltreing desert and junge. All these areas change
people if they are there long enough, without the need for any
outside migrants to explain why.

 -
Earlier studies using direct limb data show
AEs clustering with Africans..



FINAL QUOTE:

"Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy
with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth has
been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach, 2007),
this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes correlated
with subsistence economy."


"In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to
evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the
Nile Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also
associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement
in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted
in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition."


-- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011 The Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
A-- It is admitted that the AEs have more tropical proportions.
B-- It is admitted that the Nubians have even more tropical proportions.


 -

then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Raxter and Holiday are not using the same datasets or methods.
Despite this, Holliday's final results still fit
the general patterns of previous studies.


 -


The dendogram is distingusihing Nubians from Jebel Sahabans.
Why I don't know.
I thought Jebel Sahabans were Nubians yet this chart indicates some sort of difference.
I think it must be that Jebel Sahabans are Upper Paleolithic whereas what is labeled here "Nubians" are later Merotic people with a different morphology



Why do you believe Jebel Sahabans and Nubians are
the same?

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I thought this issue was discussed several times before where the Euronuts tried to claim non-Hpal (np3,592) lineages as 'Caucasian' even though these same lineages are common in Sudan as you say.

Yeah, covered multiple times....

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Holliday's final results still fit
the general patterns of previous studies.



quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
A-- It is admitted that the AEs have more tropical proportions.
B-- It is admitted that the Nubians have even more tropical proportions.


The two statements do not agree. Holliday indciates Nubian were less tropically proprtioned than Egyptians.
The reason for it is a separate topic and earlier studies misrepresentation of Nubian DNA, Hpal site is irreleavnt to this physical morphology

 -

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quote:
Originally posted by Lioness:
then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

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Oh,so that's the christian period for those samples?
Swenet thanks for clearing that up.
I had a funny feeling that was the case.

Yeah,some nubians in certain parts of lower nubia and a few in upper nubia in the later middle ages had varied admixture from outside elements.
Of course not southern nubia.

This gets back to what i said and troll patrol had said,it depends on what period in history and location these samples are from.

The samples seem to be only from nile and not other regions of sudan and nearby countries were nubians are known to live in.

Chad has a nubian population that live there for awhile most likely since the late middles ages or before but they are not in these samples.
Nubian churches etc.. were found there too.

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Edited-
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
Modern sudan

Huhmmmm, some Arabic tribes moved into Africa recently. Hence the o.p. posted Sample of Arab Nubians taken. You took out the Arab part, for some funny reason.


I believe the sample was for the nubians of the nile valley that's why i took out the arab part,but you could be right and these could be the arab nubians,but one problem sudan does not have arab nubians in the census,only egypt has that.

Sudan have arabized nubians but most are called arabs first like Gaalien etc...,but these would be called arabized nubians,but on the census they are just called arabs and not arab nubians.

There are arabized hill nubians and darfur nubians but the only thing really arabized about them is that they speak arabic mostly first,but they still speak thier nubian language and thier culture still nubian.

I do not why they called arabized because thier culture is still mostly nubian or nubian,and they see themselves has nubian and in the census still are nubians.

So arabized could mean varied things it seems.


The sample was for the nile valley modern nubians of sudan.


The other interesting thing is that there are more nubians outside the nile valley in sudan then in the nile,like the darfur nubians and hill nubians.


I should have posted them instead,but some nubians of the nile valley of sudan do look like white arabs or turks so i guess when they mean nubian these days it could be white or black,like hispanic,so i agree we have to be careful on who they are testing just like they do with late ancient egypt or modern egypt.

Of course most nubians are still black but you do have some that do not look black in egypt and sudan and i was shocked when i first saw them on tv a few years ago calling themselves nubians,but they do not call themselves black i heard recently.


So you do have nile nubians of egypt and sudan that are not really black,but nubians outside the nile in sudan,kenya,chad etc...are only black and i do not see any arab white looking types in those nubian groups.

I GUESS they had enough of the few whites coming into the nile in nubia, like those arab invaders overtime and converted brainwashed black arabs so they went further south and south west over the years to better protect themselves and doing a good job at.


Here are links with out the arab part below dealing with the nile valley.
Check it out.

The info inside just says nubian,not arab nubian.

Brief review of recent mtDNA H info

http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/04/brief-review-of-recent-mtdna-h-info.html

and
sudaneseonline.com

/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=
http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=88

Yeah, you're right that Nubian is just a cluster name.

One should keep in mind that "Nubians", Southern Egyptians are endogamous people (who don't easily marry out) and always have been.

Good point,but i read something about some nile nubians who did intermarried with arabs around the later middle ages starting in the northern lower nubian region and later a few intermarried in the later middle ages in upper nubia and right into modern period.

Here some info about them and the arab nubians before in a book called nubian ethnographies.

The info could be outdated to some extent however,but here is some of that info.


quote-
In the eleventh century,the rabi a an arabian tribe yemama who had first entered egypt in the ninth century,forcibly settled in the nubian region around aswan,and at this time the first general conversion of a part of the nubian population is likely to have occurred.The rabia brought thier religion and tribal political organization with them,but they adopted the language and presumably much of thier culture of the villagers as,over the years,they intermarried with the local population and came to be call the beni kanz,and later the kenuz,a name for this group of northern nubians survives to this day.

quote-
The coming of the kenuz,a people without historic ties to the other inhabitants,may have created the first sharp division at aswan,effectively blocking contacts between the older settlers,north and south.Agricultural resources were always very marginal along this stretch of river near the first cataracts and could support in the best of times only a relatively small population.Possibly,the dongolaw ancestors of the present kenuzi people,dependent primarily on trade rather than agriculture,had become numerically and linguistically predominant by the time the beni kanz came from the desert and overran the area in the eleventh century.

This hypothesis is further strengthened by the somewhat parallel existence of another intrusive population farther south,the small enclave of the arabic-speaking "nubians" found between the kenuz and fediji,in the wadi el-arab region.Many of the men in this intermediate area were descended from members of the allaqat tribe,which originated in the nejd of northern arabia.These nubians still consider themselves allaqat and have occasional contacts with the tribe.Thier genealogies reveal marriages with both men,and,to a lesser extent,fediji,but the language has remained exclusively arabic for most of the men and women in the region.Until very recently these people did not call themselves nubians at all,and they are now so identified in political-territorial rather than an ethnic-linguistic sense.
These arabs explain thier presence in nubia by recalling that they (too)were traders.
___________________________________________________________________________


I remember Djehuti and Ausar talking about the turk stuff before.
Here is some of that info.


Early modern and modern egyptian nubia
Turks in fediji area of nubia -
quote-
The inhabitants of derr are supposed to be the descendants of a number of bosnian soldiers,established in nubia by the sultan selym;and still in a great measure preserve thier comparatively fair complexion and european features,though in many instances,it is clear,from thier physiognomy,they have intermarried with blacks.In the morning several decently dressed lads passed by our boat on thier way to school,with the wooden tablets,on which they are taught to write,in tier hands.


quote-
The areas around derr and around ibrim had prospered to soome degree despite,or perhaps in part because of,the foreign garrisons sent by the ottomans to egyptian nubia,the southernmost outpost of their empire.Not only kurds and hungarians,but also mercenary soldiers from many distant regions of the oriental and occidental turkish world,came to nubia,where they perished,departed,or intermarried with the local population and settled there.The mixed origins of these nubians' forebears are still reflected in such local family names as magari and kurdi.During this long and obscure period of foreign intrusions into the southern region of egyptian nubia,a succession of hereditary muslim overlords,entitled kashifs,became established.These men,absorbed into the nubian community,had brought with them the education and literacy of the wider islamic congregation.Under thier supervision,mosques and quranic schools were built,which served to indicate to the world at large that here indeed was a congregation of muslims.

The kashifs of ottoman times were replaced by mohammed ali with his own administrative officers,also called kashifs.Their rule was often tyrannical.
Through intermarriage,however,many fediji nubians trace descent from these men,as well as from ottoman kashifs,and it is still a source of some prestige.
Even after the advent of british colonial administration,kashif descendants retained considerable local authority in some nubian communities.

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Djehuti
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^ Actually as recently as the Ottoman Empire were there imperial outposts in the Nubian region comprising Turks as well as other groups of the empire like Circassians etc. Maybe some of these groups did intermarry with the locals though as Ausar pointed out, rape was not uncommon as the natives were still oppressed by these imperialist regimes. This is why some Nubians in the area, particularly the Kanuzi, have light-skinned mixed looking types.

quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:

Oh,so that's the christian period for those samples?
Swenet thanks for clearing that up.
I had a funny feeling that was the case.

Yeah,some nubians in certain parts of lower nubia and a few in upper nubia in the later middle ages had varied admixture from outside elements.
Of course not southern nubia.

This gets back to what i said and troll patrol had said,it depends on what period in history and location these samples are from.

The samples seem to be only from nile and not other regions of sudan and nearby countries were nubians are known to live in.

Chad has a nubian population that live there for awhile most likely since the late middles ages or before but they are not in these samples.
Nubian churches etc.. were found there too.

Yes, let's not forget that the Coptic Church was not always confined to Egypt but spread into Nubia and rest of northern and central Sudan up to Ethiopia. Thus originally there were 3 branches of the Coptic Church-- the original Egyptian branch and then the Nubian (Sudanese) branch, and the Ethiopian branch. Today only the Egyptian and Ethiopian branches survive as the Nubian branch became extinguished by Islamic movements.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyinass:
then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

I've always suspected as much. This reminds me of the (late) Giza sample Zakrewski found to be non-Egyptian but was held up as Egyptian by Howells and how many scholars.

Lyinass: "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know."

Well now you know, twit!

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Yeah, you're right that Nubian is just a cluster name.

One should keep in mind that "Nubians", Southern Egyptians are endogamous people (who don't easily marry out) and always have been.

Yes with few exception. As I just pointed out there were Ottoman Imperial outposts in the Nubian region with soldiers raping women if not marrying them. This is why lighter-skinned mixed looking Kanuzi are not that rare. Although I should also point out that interestingly even these light types tend to marry amongst themselves. The vast majority of Kanuzi are still dark. Both Nubians and Upper Egyptian Sa'idi not only marry within their communities but actually practice cousin marriage. So studies of these people do tend to give more stable trends either morphometrically or genetically.
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...
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyinass:
then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

I've always suspected as much. This reminds me of the (late) Giza sample Zakrewski found to be non-Egyptian but was held up as Egyptian by Howells and how many scholars.

Lyinass: "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know."

Well now you know, twit!

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Yeah, you're right that Nubian is just a cluster name.

One should keep in mind that "Nubians", Southern Egyptians are endogamous people (who don't easily marry out) and always have been.

Yes with few exception. As I just pointed out there were Ottoman Imperial outposts in the Nubian region with soldiers raping women if not marrying them. This is why lighter-skinned mixed looking Kanuzi are not that rare. Although I should also point out that interestingly even these light types tend to marry amongst themselves. The vast majority of Kanuzi are still dark. Both Nubians and Upper Egyptian Sa'idi not only marry within their communities but actually practice cousin marriage. So studies of these people do tend to give more stable trends either morphometrically or genetically.

Right.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Lyinass: "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know."


 -
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Lioness:
then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

Does Holliday reference Hanihara et al 2003 for the article?
I don't know I have not read it.
Would this mean modern Nubians on average cluster with French and other Europeans?

wiki:

Christian Nubia

Main articles: Makuria, Nobadia, and Alodia

Around AD 350, the area was invaded by the Kingdom of Aksum and the kingdom collapsed. Eventually, three smaller kingdoms replaced it: northernmost was Nobatia between the first and second cataract of the Nile River, with its capital at Pachoras (modern-day Faras); in the middle was Makuria, with its capital at Old Dongola; and southernmost was Alodia, with its capital at Soba (near Khartoum).

By the 7th century, Makuria expanded becoming the dominant power in the region. It was strong enough to halt the southern expansion of Islam after the Arabs had taken Egypt. After several failed invasions the new rulers agreed to a treaty with Dongola allowing for peaceful coexistence and trade. This treaty held for six hundred years. Over time the influx of Arab traders introduced Islam to Nubia and it gradually supplanted Christianity.

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Firewall
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quote-
Would this mean modern Nubians on average cluster with French and other Europeans?
______________

No.
Some modern nubians do have varied outside admixture,but most do not.

Egypt on average more so then sudan however.

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Firewall
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The modern nubian thing is confusing to alot of folks,believe me i am still trying to understand it.

Let me give you my point of view and put it a way you could understand very clearly.

I Will make it short and others could speak about it here as well.


Most of the admixture of the modern nubians seem to be from other blacks mostly in the modern period and the mixing took place only with nile valley nubians and not other nubians from the dna info.

There were a few nubians that mixed with other blacks in the late ancient period in lower nubia but it was not has widespread like it became in the modern period.


Any admixture from whites took place only in the nile valley starting in the northern region of lower nubian region maybe in the late ancient period overtime,but lower nubia on average was free from white admixture.

Meaning only a few may have had white admixture in late ancient times in lower nubia.



There were a few nubians that mixed with whites in certain parts of upper nubia in the late middle ages so mixing with whites was not widespread has once believe.

Southern nubia remain free from white admixture in the middle ages.

Keep in mind that most of the nubian population live there,so overall most nubians in the middle ages did not have white admixture.

Now dealing with the modern period,more nubians had white admixture and even more had admixture with other blacks.

So you can say some modern nubians have white admixture and some do not.

The question i think some want to know is if the majority have white admixture or not?


My answer again is no.

In egypt alot do however,but alot do not i believe,but you could say a slight majority in egypt do not.

Sudan some do,but that's some is only in the nile valley and not other places in sudan or chad,or kenya,or ethiopia etc...

So admixture with whites was less in the sudan then the modern nubian region of egypt.


Even in sudan in the nile valley most nubians do not have white admixture,some do but most do not.

Keep in mind there are a few modern nubians that are white has well,but these whites became nubianzed in the modern period and many of those white nubians do have black admixture,maybe all.


So that guy who comes here calling himself white nubian,if he is a white nubian, it is most likely he has some form of black admixture.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
quote-
Would this mean modern Nubians on average cluster with French and other Europeans?
______________

No.
Some modern nubians do have varied outside admixture,but most do not.

Egypt on average more so then sudan however.

That means according to Holliday's chart Nubians (if Swenet is correct>of the Christian era) were less tropically proportioned than modern Nubians

-although I'm not sure if there is data on modern Nubian limb ratios

- this is all before getting into the reasons for it, whether or not it's due to admixture is a separate issue

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by Lioness:
then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

Does Holliday reference Hanihara et al 2003 for the article?
I don't know I have not read it.
Would this mean modern Nubians on average cluster with French and other Europeans?

My comments of ''Middle Eastern'' elements do not pertain to all of Christian Nubia. The 'Nubia' sample that keeps reappearing in Holiday's work is just a sample that happens to be admixed. The indigenousness of the native Christian era Nubians, however, is not up for discussion. In fact, Christian era Nubians have more affinity with Sub-Saharan Africans than earlier C and A-group Nubians. Here, below, some other Christian era Nubian sample that is likely to be more reflective of the local population, assumes a cranio-facial position all the way in the back, close to the Teita sample, while the other Nubian samples cluster more to the other side, towards the Naqada Egyptians, Masai and the Tindiga (i.e., Hadza).

 -

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Originally posted by Djehuti:
This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

I've always suspected as much. This reminds me of the (late) Giza sample Zakrewski found to be non-Egyptian but was held up as Egyptian by Howells and how many scholars.


^^Yes, Hanihara's Nubian sample is later, more mixed Meriotic era.
But also in the SAME Hanihara 2003 study, the Kerma
samples from Nubia region cluster with Egyptians.
So one way or another, you have "Nubian" samples
clustering with ancient Egyptians.

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
My comments of ''Middle Eastern'' elements do not pertain to all of Christian Nubia. The 'Nubia' sample that keeps reappearing in Holiday's work is just a sample that happens to be admixed. The indigenousness of the native Christian era Nubians, however, is not up for discussion. In fact, Christian era Nubians have more affinity with Sub-Saharan Africans than earlier C and A-group Nubians.

You say some are admixted.
That means one can't say the Christian era Nubians being indigenous is not up for discussion.
According to what you are saying some Christian ear Nubians were indigenous and others were less than indigenous, so much so that their limb ratios approach Europeans.
is Holliday misreprenting Nubians by not making this distinction?

And is there other Christian ara Nubian data specifically on limb ratios that demonstrates some samples having limb ratios more tropical than AAs and AEs?
cranio-facial data is a different metric
one can only assume that corresponds to limb proportions

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 -

^^^ I am still finding the pygmy position here hard to believe.
Many pictures I've seen of pygmies, the first thing you notice is how short their legs are, shorter proportionally than AAs.
This looks similar to a cold adpated limb to body ratio.
But that alone cannot indicate cold adaptation.
They don't have thick limbs like other short statured, short legged people do who come from cold environments-Bergman's rule.
Obviously they are tropical but not in the usual way.
I don't see any of this pertaining to Eurocentic vs. Afrocentric arguments. I just see the pygmies as a unique population with overlap to other Africans and other things that do not overlap but these things still completley indigenous to Africa.
Add to this some mix with Bantus and take on more of their charactersitics.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyinass:
then why is this 2013 Holliday chart showing Nubians less tropically proportioned than Egyptians?

This is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

I've always suspected as much. This reminds me of the (late) Giza sample Zakrewski found to be non-Egyptian but was held up as Egyptian by Howells and how many scholars.

Lyinass: "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know."

Well now you know, twit!

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Yeah, you're right that Nubian is just a cluster name.

One should keep in mind that "Nubians", Southern Egyptians are endogamous people (who don't easily marry out) and always have been.

Yes with few exception. As I just pointed out there were Ottoman Imperial outposts in the Nubian region with soldiers raping women if not marrying them. This is why lighter-skinned mixed looking Kanuzi are not that rare. Although I should also point out that interestingly even these light types tend to marry amongst themselves. The vast majority of Kanuzi are still dark. Both Nubians and Upper Egyptian Sa'idi not only marry within their communities but actually practice cousin marriage. So studies of these people do tend to give more stable trends either morphometrically or genetically.

Yes, these exceptions are. It's true. But those are rare occasions. It's even hard for a Northern Egyptian to marry a Southern Egyptian, let alone a foreign person. Usually the son in law moves in to the house, where the couple has a separate cubic, this a basic principle.


I can't get a clear picture on some Bosnian or Yugoslavian descendants with Southern Egyptian/ Nubian admixture. Maybe you remember what that group is called.


 -

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
My comments of ''Middle Eastern'' elements do not pertain to all of Christian Nubia. The 'Nubia' sample that keeps reappearing in Holiday's work is just a sample that happens to be admixed. The indigenousness of the native Christian era Nubians, however, is not up for discussion. In fact, Christian era Nubians have more affinity with Sub-Saharan Africans than earlier C and A-group Nubians.

You say some are admixted.
That means one can't say the Christian era Nubians being indigenous is not up for discussion.
According to what you are saying some Christian ear Nubians were indigenous and others were less than indigenous, so much so that their limb ratios approach Europeans.
is Holliday misreprenting Nubians by not making this distinction?

And is there other Christian ara Nubian data specifically on limb ratios that demonstrates some samples having limb ratios more tropical than AAs and AEs?
cranio-facial data is a different metric
one can only assume that corresponds to limb proportions

Holiday has made at least two references to peculiarities in this Christian era sample. These peculiarities are well know in the literature and were observed well before Holiday started using this sample, and well before his limb data results confirmed what was written in those early reports.

Also, please don't try to lecture me about the differences between non-metric data and limb data, as it'll lead to nowhere. I actually have a history of looking into this stuff--you don't. Your insinuation that the entire Christian era population needs to be revisited on the account of one peculiar sample reeks of bias. Christian era Northern Sudan would have attracted non African elements, just like Coptic Egypt and Christian Ethiopia. Changes in some samples should be expected given integration of new ideas and religious views around this time. Brauer 1980's craniometric plot may not be directly comparable with Hanihara's non-metric data, but Godde 2009's non-metric data sure is:

quote:
Scholars have identified a hiatus in the archaeological record of Lower Nubia that spans approximately 1000 years. This interval may represent a desertion of Lower Nubia by its inhabitants. Evidence of occupation did not reappear in the area until the Meroitic time period. However, the identity of the returning people has been the subject of speculation. In order to determine who the Meroites of Lower Nubia were, 20 cranial non-metric traits were observed on six Nubian groups, representing five time periods. Two groups date to time periods immediately before (Kerma) and immediately after (X-Group) the Meroitic period. Three additional Nubian groups (two Christian samples from different sites and Sesebi, a contemporary sample) were utilised as outgroups to elucidate a clearer picture of the relationship among the six samples. Mahalanobis D2 with a tetrachoric matrix was employed for calculating biological distances among the groups. Principal coordinates analysis produced two clusters of Nubians, where the Meroitics clustered with other Nubian groups. Specific distance scores indicate the Meroites were biologically similar to individuals from the time periods prior to and after their arrival in Lower Nubia. The Meroites therefore appear to be a Nubian group returning to Lower Nubia after its desertion. Copyright © 2009 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
--Godde 2009
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Holiday has made at least two references to peculiarities in this Christian era sample. These peculiarities are well know in the literature and were observed well before Holiday started using this sample, and well before his limb data results confirmed what was written in those early reports.

Also, please don't try to lecture me about the differences between non-metric data and limb data, as it'll lead to nowhere. I actually have a history of looking into this stuff--you don't. Your insinuation that the entire Christian era population needs to be revisited on the account of one peculiar sample reeks of bias.

My insinuation that if what you are saying is correct and Holliday has produced this 2013 article and not mentioned in this article that he is using a peculiar sample then he is misrepresenting Nubians in general as having limb ratios less high than AA and Egyptians and with a bias toward being closer than Europeans than other Christian era Nubians.
And does he mention anything in this 2013 article about these Nubians being Christian era? If they are then he should have mentioned it don't you think? It's only two more words
There's no point in using a peculiar sample unless your focus is on it being peculiar

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
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^^^ I am still finding the pygmy position here hard to believe.
Many pictures I've seen of pygmies, the first thing you notice is how short their legs are, shorter proportionally than AAs.
This looks similar to a cold adpated limb to body ratio.
But that alone cannot indicate cold adaptation.
They don't have thick limbs like other short statured, short legged people do who come from cold environments-Bergman's rule.
Obviously they are tropical but not in the usual way.
I don't see any of this pertaining to Eurocentic vs. Afrocentric arguments. I just see the pygmies as a unique population with overlap to other Africans and other things that do not overlap but these things still completley indigenous to Africa.
Add to this some mix with Bantus and take on more of their charactersitics.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
quote-
Would this mean modern Nubians on average cluster with French and other Europeans?
______________

No.
Some modern nubians do have varied outside admixture,but most do not.

Egypt on average more so then sudan however.

I just retrieved this post,




quote:
The Magyarab are a people living along the Nile River in Egypt and Sudan. ... Rather, the name is a concatenation of "Magyar" (Hungarian) and "Ab" which in Nubian simply means "tribe"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyarab_people


I have been to Hungary, and I have seen people with African facial traits.


http://web.archive.org/web/20050213015534/http://w3.datanet.hu/~demokrat/muh1-429.htm

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Djehuti
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^ Indeed, in fact during the late 19th century, it was not uncommon for wealthy Europeans of eastern Europe to travel to Africa and "mingle" with Africans especially the nobility or royalty of those nations.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

I can't get a clear picture on some Bosnian or Yugoslavian descendants with Southern Egyptian/ Nubian admixture. Maybe you remember what that group is called.

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Perhaps you are referring to the Janissaries i.e. the eastern European men used as soldiers by the Turks(?)
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

You say some are admixed.
That means one can't say the Christian era Nubians being indigenous is not up for discussion.
According to what you are saying some Christian ear Nubians were indigenous and others were less than indigenous, so much so that their limb ratios approach Europeans.
is Holliday misreprenting Nubians by not making this distinction?

And is there other Christian era Nubian data specifically on limb ratios that demonstrates some samples having limb ratios more tropical than AAs and AEs?
cranio-facial data is a different metric
one can only assume that corresponds to limb proportions

LOL So you are going to use the admixed sample--which is considered an OUTLIER among all the samples-- as representative of the general population overall?! This would be like using the Greco-Roman era samples of Alexandria as representative for all Egyptians or modern day cosmopolitan London people as representative of all British people.

I hope you can see your failed logic. [Embarrassed]

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^lol


^ Indeed, in fact during the late 19th century, it was not uncommon for wealthy Europeans of eastern Europe to travel to Africa and "mingle" with Africans especially the nobility or royalty of those nations.

Hmm, interesting. Any refs?

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lyinass,:

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Firewall
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Deleted.
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