quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Don't be ridiculous. I'm not here to answer all you're stupid questions.
You're the one who must prove that E is NOT younger than the OOA migrations? And that E was part of the OOA migrations? Or that East and West Africans don't share the E-P2 haplogroup. Which you can't. OOA migrants were from the upstream CT haplogroup. Most East and West Africans from the downstream E haplogroups (over 80% of their populations).
Hey guys doesn't Amanut's own graph refute him?? According to the graph CF carriers were in Eurasia before E-M96 (E*) even diverged, and the same is true with DE.
Anyway, the nutcase is too stupid to realize that we are not racists trying to white-wash or de-Africanize people who are obviously African BUT there is no arguing that some Africans are closer related to Eurasians than to other Africans.
As I tried explaining to the idiot even PN2 derived E carrying Africans in general are closer related to Eurasians than they are to say Africans who carry or A. Again, his OWN graphs shows this.
This is why racial typology is scientifically invalid and bankrupt, and why people who rely on such typology for their racial agendas will always fail!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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"It's obvious you're trying to waste my time by making me answer stupid questions".
He genuinely thinks they are a bunch of random questions that I pulled out of thin air to torment him and waste his time. Not the first time I've seen this "they're out to get me" paranoia on ES. How profoundly oblivious can you be to not see the relationship and direct relevancy of the questions to the matter at hand? Like the goldfish in the fishtank who never realizes he's engulfed in water, because he doesn't have the capacity to compute such a notion.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Certainly not. Those people (Kikuyu, Hutu, Oromo, East Africans) are obviously African and they share a common origin with most other Africans like West Africans and Bantu at a time period after the OOA migrations. Your question doesn't even make sense. Are Kikuyu not Africans? Why do you say "than Africans", which they are themselves?
I asked the question because Beyoku up above says that quote:
" does not exempt the fact that East Africans are closer to Eurasian populations. All one need to do is look at an East African population that we assume is not "Mixed"."
So based on your statement above, is Beyoku wrong? Are Kikuyu, Oromo, Hutu etc, who are all East Africans, closer to Eurasians than other African populations? If not, where are the errors in Beyoku's claim?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Don't be ridiculous. I'm not here to answer all you're stupid questions.
You're the one who must prove that E is NOT younger than the OOA migrations? And that E was part of the OOA migrations? Or that East and West Africans don't share the E-P2 haplogroup. Which you can't. OOA migrants were from the upstream CT haplogroup. Most East and West Africans from the downstream E haplogroups (over 80% of their populations).
Hey guys doesn't Amanut's own graph refute him?? According to the graph CF carriers were in Eurasia before E-M96 (E*) even diverged, and the same is true with DE.
Anyway, the nutcase is too stupid to realize that we are not racists trying to white-wash or de-Africanize people who are obviously African BUT there is no arguing that some Africans are closer related to Eurasians than to other Africans.
As I tried explaining to the idiot even PN2 derived E carrying Africans in general are closer related to Eurasians than they are to say Africans who carry B or A. Again, his OWN graphs shows this.
This is why racial typology is scientifically invalid and bankrupt, and why people who rely on such typology for their racial agendas will always fail!
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally edited by Djehuti: Hey guys doesn't Amanut's own graph refute him?? According to the graph CF carriers were in Eurasia before E-M96 (E*) even diverged, and the same is true with DE.
Initially I didn't see the significance of what you were saying, but yeah, very sharp point; the map is not internally consistent in that regard. I don't think it was meant to be taken that seriously (its simplified and watered down) but he obviously thinks it's the bible of population genetics judging by how often he posts it along with the rest of his propaganda.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Certainly not. Those people (Kikuyu, Hutu, Oromo, East Africans) are obviously African and they share a common origin with most other Africans like West Africans and Bantu at a time period after the OOA migrations. Your question doesn't even make sense. Are Kikuyu not Africans? Why do you say "than Africans", which they are themselves?
I asked the question because Beyoku up above says that quote:
" does not exempt the fact that East Africans are closer to Eurasian populations. All one need to do is look at an East African population that we assume is not "Mixed"."
So based on your statement above, is Beyoku wrong? Are Kikuyu, Oromo, Hutu etc, who are all East Africans, closer to Eurasians than other African populations? If not, where are the errors in Beyoku's claim?
He will do one of two things. 1 - Not answer. 2 - Run away for a while only to come back and spew the same nonsense.
Its funny I am the so called wacists when he sounds very simililar to the Euroclown playbook seen HERE.
He says that Khoi/Twa didn mix with other E/L3/M168 folks:
DEBUNKED
quote: Other studies (PRÜFER ET AL 2014, MEYER ET AL 2012, TISHKOFF ET AL 2009) have shown that, while the San and Mbuti are the most diverged from all other populations sampled, the Mandenka and Yoruba populations have only recently separated and the Dinka population shares some ancestry with non-African populations. The San and Mbuti projections onto YRI show a slight excess of rare alleles, suggesting some admixture from their ancestors into the ancestors of YRI
Note the above about the Dinka..........they "shares some ancestry with non-African populations." According to Amun Ra the troll that should not be the case since they are mostly A/B non L3 population. And remember :
quote: These results mean that we have not identified any sub-Saharan African sample that we are confident has no evidence of back-to-Africa migration. Our best candidate at present is the Dinka but it is possible that with a phased genome or large sample sizes we would detect evidence of non-African ancestry in this population as well.
Dinka sit closest to Eurasians.....have less Neanderthal and Yoruba.....they are Primarily an A/B population........they share "some ancestry with non-African populations." yet they are the "best candidate at present" for a "sub-Saharan African sample that we are confident has no evidence of back-to-Africa migration"
Anyone looking for the context of the quote can simply GOOGLE IT.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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That's not a problem to me and doesn't contradict me in any way because Dinka in that graph (which is NOT about genetic distance btw) are still closer to Yoruba than they are to any of the Eurasian samples in the graph.
As I said before, multiple times, of course if you divide a Yoruba town into 2 groups in a competely random fashion, due to random genetic drift (etc) one of the 2 group will be closer to Eurasian than the other group. But they will still be closer to one another than they are to Eurasians. Even with 2 twins individuals, as a bit of a trivia, there will one closer to Eurasian populations than the other one (because it turns out twins are not genetically *exactly* similar although they are almost similar). Low level bi-directional admixtures through intermediary can also have some impact.
Dinka in your graph, which is not about genetic distance, are still closer to Yoruba than they are to any Eurasian populations.
For Ancient Egyptian it's the same thing, according to current genetic results they are closer to sub-Saharan Africans (E1b1a, Great Lakes Africans, Southern Africans, West Africans, archaeological continuity, etc) than they are to Eurasians, North Africans or West Asians populations.
So, Ancient Egyptians are closer to sub-Saharan Africans (E1b1a, Great Lakes, etc) than they are to Europeans or West Asians populations despite having some low level Eurasian admixtures like during the Hyksos (Aamu/Asians) occupation and probably even during the foundation of Ancient Egypt (since neighboring populations -including with Eurasian nomadic tribes- always intermarry/intermix at low level). Despite this low level admixtures with Eurasians Ancient Egyptians still end up to be closer to Sub-Saharan Africans than Eurasians according to current genetic and archaeological study results.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
You are moving the goal post. Notice issue stated by myself and which was also asked by Zarahan was this :
quote: I asked the question because Beyoku up above says that quote:
"does not exempt the fact that East Africans are closer to Eurasian populations. All one need to do is look at an East African population that we assume is not "Mixed"."
You didnt answer the question. That you point out that the Dinka are close to the Yoruba is a valid point. That does not exempt the fact that the Dinka are closer to the Eurasian sample than the Yoruba and Twa are! In turn the Yoruba are closer to the Eurasians than that Twa are.
This tree only includes 3 African populations. Include the Khoi, Southern Bantu, Dongon, Mandinka, Fulani, Kenyans Omotics, Somali, Sudanese etc and the cline with be even longer. The Cline will be long enough that SOME Africans..................could be closer to Eurasians than any other Africans.
This would be even more pronounced if you travel back through time to OOA because the Africans that left....wouldn't be fully genetically differentiated from the Africans that didnt leave.
PLease answer Zarahan's question. In fact please explain the position of the Dinka....having less Neanderthal than the Yoruba, having shared ancestry with Eurasians while at the same time being the best proxy from an African population with NO Admixture compared to the Yoruba. And also being heavy in A/B non L3. You cant.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
quote:The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26.7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa 1 (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68.7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
I can't wrap my mind around why this paper is so undercited, aside from Cuckoo Mathilda and her confused puppets. Notice I'm not saying that this paper has been ignored by ES members, as its potential to be misconstrued has been nipped in the bud several times. But why isn't it pro-actively quoted as much as, say, DNA Tribes' Amarna analysis?
First of all, judging by the abstract, the authors aren't even saying that these Nubians had 61% non-African mtDNAs, and secondly, their title and abstract are suggesting that they were testing the contributions of Niger Congo speaking Africans in the ancient Nile Valley genepool (which doesn't make sense due to the fact that these lineages predate anything Niger-Congo, but oh well..):
Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39%
^They clearly aren't counting Northeast African specific mtDNA Ls (which we now know, are prominent).
Thirdly, it is NORMAL for Sudanese to only have ~30% hpa I np 3592 associated uniparentals (L1 and L2):
quote:For mtDNA analysis, a total of 56 haplotypes were observed, all belonging to the major sub-Saharan African and Eurasian mitochondrial macrohapolgroups L0, L1, L2, L4, L5, L3A, M and N in frequencies of 12.1, 11.9, 22, 4.2, 6.2, 29.5, 2, and 12.2% respectively.
--Hassan, 2009
Forget all that nonense arguing with Amun, now back to the topic. By the logic of this study, if my mtDNA was among the samples, I would be counted as NOT being sub-Saharan because my mtDNA haplogroup is L4b2, which is found scattered around the continent but at very low frequencies and highest in Hazda. The reason this study cannot be cited is because it is dated, didn't specific whether the non- Hpa 1 (np3,592) markers are L0 and or L3-L7. perhaps if her samples were tested again we could have a much more accurate presentation. Back then I remember debating Racial Reality aka "Racial Myths" who used this study, well the abstract, to say ancient Nubians were 39% "Negroid" and therefore not black. Hpa 1 (np3,592) is typical of only L1 and L2, but we know L3-L7 and M1 is found at higher frequencies in Northeast Africa. Also in teh fulltext of the study, CL Fox presumed that the Nubian population was originally a "Caucasoid" population that became more Negroid, another reason why this study should not be cited.
Swenet step your game up brother, I know you can do better than this, smh
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I find it strange you cant tell he knows the details of Hpal 3592 just by looking at the very first post in the thread.....Or the other images comparing the Ancient Nubian dna with contemporary African lineages.
Or maybe my sarcasm meter is turned off?
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: PLease answer Zarahan's question. In fact please explain the position of the Dinka....having less Neanderthal than the Yoruba, having shared ancestry with Eurasians while at the same time being the best proxy from an African population with NO Admixture compared to the Yoruba. And also being heavy in A/B non L3. You cant.
If we look at the study above we can gather those numbers: Dinka L3:33.33% (3.03+3.03+3.03+24.24) Dinka Eurasian mtdNA:6.05% (100-3.03+6.06+15.15+12.12+ 3.03+3.03+3.03+24.24+6.06+18.2) Dinka: E1b1b (M78):15.38%
So Dinka have L3 in large quantity 33.33% They got 6.05% of patrilocal (female mediated) admixtures with Eurasian. They got 15.38% of E1b1b. We know some Eurasian populations got E1b1b in small proportion (larger for the Balkans).
All this have impact on the genetic distance (even if we had a real genetic distance value). They show post-OOA bi-directional admixtures between Dinka and Eurasians probably through intermediaries (E1b1b carrier).
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I agree with what you're saying. When I wrote that, I was arguing from the perspective that C.L. Fox was talking about external influences on already indigenous Nile Valley populations:
to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population
Now, a couple of years later, I no longer think that's what she was doing. However, I do think the results can be repurposed for the case that this sample was predominantly African. The reason is because, if you're arguing from C.L. Fox' perspective that the Nubian population was originally Caucasoid, you need a lot of African geneflow to get from 0% to 26.7% HpaI when you're dealing with Afro-Asiatic mtDNA M1 populations (certainly more than 26.7%). Taking modern samples with known craniometric overlap with Meroites, who live near Meroe, you'd need more than 50% mtDNA L types to go from immigrant non-African to 26.7% HpaI.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
This is not directly related to my last post above but for info this is the proportion of L3 in Yoruba and Somali (gathered from the same Hirbo Study ):
This and the large proportion of CT descendant haplogroups (E and E-P2 haplogroups) among both Yoruba and Somali, show that BOTH Yoruba and Somali share a common origin with OOA migrants (who are all CT and L3 descendants). That's true for most African populations beside Aka-Mbuti related people and Khoisan people (who only got more recent admixtures with Eurasians through intermediaries as well as recent CT and L3 African lineages admixtures).
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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I agree with what you're saying. When I wrote that, I was arguing from the perspective that C.L. Fox was talking about external influences on indigenous Nile Valley populations:
to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population
Now, a couple of years later, I no longer think that's what she was doing. However, I do think the results can be repurposed for the case that this sample was predominantly African. The reason is because, if you're arguing from C.L. Fox' perspective that the Nubian population was originally Caucasoid, you need a lot of African geneflow to get from 0% to 26.7% HpaI when you're dealing with Afro-Asiatic mtDNA M1 populations (certainly more than 26.7%). Taking modern samples with known craniometric overlap with Meroites, you'd need more than 50% mtDNA L types to go from immigrant non-African to 26.7% HpaI.
Oh ok, all is cool then,, I mean just know that pretty much prior to 2000 all of those sources never defined L3 and all of its sister clades, L4 being one. I tried to get a hold of her study full text so people can see the stuff she wrote in it, very typological for its time.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This and the large proportion of CT descendant haplogroups (E and E-P2 haplogroups) among both Yoruba and Somali, show that BOTH Yoruba and Somali share a common origin with OOA migrants
All modern humans on the face of the earth share a common origin with OOA migrants. However, if you're going to push your lying propaganda that the West African populations you talk about split after OOA, I'm going to need some evidence. Where is it? Every time you duck the question and spout the same propaganda again, I'm going to be on your bumper.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This and the large proportion of CT descendant haplogroups (E and E-P2 haplogroups) among both Yoruba and Somali, show that BOTH Yoruba and Somali share a common origin with OOA migrants
All modern humans on the face of the earth share a common origin with OOA migrants. However, if you're going to push your lying propaganda that the West African populations you talk about split after OOA, I'm going to need some evidence. Where is it? Every time you duck the question and spout the same propaganda again, I'm going to be on your bumper.
Since E-P2, the Y-DNA haplogroup shared between East and West African is downstream to CT, it's obvious it happened after the OOA migrations of CT carriers (the Y-DNA haplogroup of all OOA migrants). East and West Africans share a common father (E-P2) and various mothers (L2a, L3bf, L3cd, L3eikx, L0a, etc). While both East and West Africans share great great grandfathers and grandmothers with Eurasians. People who share downstream E-P2 between each others are more closely related to each others than people that share only upstream (more ancient) CT haplogroup. It's basic logic.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile valley
quote:The Hpal (np3,592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26.7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa 1 (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68.7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.
I can't wrap my mind around why this paper is so undercited, aside from Cuckoo Mathilda and her confused puppets. Notice I'm not saying that this paper has been ignored by ES members, as its potential to be misconstrued has been nipped in the bud several times. But why isn't it pro-actively quoted as much as, say, DNA Tribes' Amarna analysis?
First of all, judging by the abstract, the authors aren't even saying that these Nubians had 61% non-African mtDNAs, and secondly, their title and abstract are suggesting that they were testing the contributions of Niger Congo speaking Africans in the ancient Nile Valley genepool (which doesn't make sense due to the fact that these lineages predate anything Niger-Congo, but oh well..):
Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39%
^They clearly aren't counting Northeast African specific mtDNA Ls (which we now know, are prominent).
Thirdly, it is NORMAL for Sudanese to only have ~30% hpa I np 3592 associated uniparentals (L1 and L2):
quote:For mtDNA analysis, a total of 56 haplotypes were observed, all belonging to the major sub-Saharan African and Eurasian mitochondrial macrohapolgroups L0, L1, L2, L4, L5, L3A, M and N in frequencies of 12.1, 11.9, 22, 4.2, 6.2, 29.5, 2, and 12.2% respectively.
--Hassan, 2009
For the record, certain aspects of this post are inaccurate. The Hpal 3592 marker left the mtDNA tree immediately upstream of L4'3, meaning, only L3, L4, M and N lineages lack the Hpal 3592 marker. There are exceptions but these exceptions don't have common ancestry with the Hpal 3592 marker upstream of L4'3.
Repost. Only L3 and L4 are HpaI negative. L5 and L6 are not HpaI negative. L7 has been tucked in with L4 in current phylogeny.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: This and the large proportion of CT descendant haplogroups (E and E-P2 haplogroups) among both Yoruba and Somali, show that BOTH Yoruba and Somali share a common origin with OOA migrants
All modern humans on the face of the earth share a common origin with OOA migrants. However, if you're going to push your lying propaganda that the West African populations you talk about split after OOA, I'm going to need some evidence. Where is it? Every time you duck the question and spout the same propaganda again, I'm going to be on your bumper. [/qb]
Since E-P2, the Y-DNA haplogroup shared between East and West African is downstream to CT, it's obvious it happened after the OOA migrations of CT carriers (the Y-DNA haplogroup of all OOA migrants). East and West Africans share a common father (E-P2) and various mothers (L2a, L3bf, L3cd, L3eikx, L0a, etc). While both East and West Africans share great great grandfathers and grandmothers with Eurasians. People who share downstream E-P2 between each others are more closely related to each others than people that share only upstream (more ancient) CT haplogroup. It's basic logic.
Every inference you make here on the basis of hg sharing between the implicated East and West Africans is absolute gibberish. These instances of hg sharing can be explained in more ways than a split after OOA; there is nothing "obvious" about what you're flapping your gums about.
Where is your evidence? No one cares about what YOU wrote or what YOU deem evident. Just a month ago you said that Y chromsomes lineages can be inferred from the autosomes. All your "evidence" so far has been your own monologue. When will it dawn on you that the myths you cook up in your spare time are no substitutes for evidence?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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People who share downstream E-P2 between each others are more closely related to each others than people that share only upstream (more ancient) CT haplogroup. It's basic logic. Only bigotry make you deny what is evident for everybody else.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
The sharing of substantial L3 and E-P2 subclades between two separated populations tells you about post-split admixture, not the first population split itself that defines when their ancestral populations first went their separate ways, incompetent fraud. Now, do you have any evidence for the figments of your imagination, or what?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The sharing of substantial L3 and E-P2 subclades between two separated populations tells you about post-split admixture, not the first population split itself, incompetent fraud. Now, do you have any evidence for the figments of your imagination, or what?
That's ridiculous. East and West African population share upstream(older) haplogroups between each other not downstream.
For example, Somali got no E1b1a or L3e (common among Yoruba people), but share upstream E-P2 and L3eikx with Yoruba populations (see Hirbo) . So before E-P2 and L3eikx split into local regional variants like E1b1a and L3e.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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You can stop with all these confused "see Hirbo" references. I've already told you that the whole Hirbo thesis is one big refutation of your claims, including the ones you try to advance here. Remember? I think it was about the 30th time you fled the scene after you realized your propaganda was exposed.
Confused charlatan, do you know the difference between an original population split and different post-split expansions towards of West Africa?
The mere notion of post-split admixture is too much to compute for you, isn't it? Maybe these pictures help.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^ LOL You're still arguing with the Ultimate Nut??
The guy obviously has issues. So what's the point?
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What's the point of your post?
It doesn't tell us anything about any topic. It's just an unprovoked gratuitous personal attack on ARtU that cheapens the thread and makes ES Egyptology look worthless.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Modern sudan Now this is paternal only.
Sample Nubians taken(Nile Valley) Nubians (Agriculturists; n=39; Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic) 3/39 = 7.7% B-M60 - Nilotic 3/39 = 7.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. North East Africa 5/39 = 12.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa 1/39 = 2.6% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa 4/39 = 10.3% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) Western Asia 2/39 = 5.1% I-M170 - Near East 16/39 = 41.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) - Arabic 1/39 = 2.6% J2-M172 -Arabic 4/39 = 10.3% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Nuba Hill Nubians and others.(Central sudan) (Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic) 46 % A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 14.2% B-M60 - Nilotic 14.2% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa 25 % E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
Beja (Pastoralists; n=42; Afro-Asiatic, Cushitic?) 2/42 = 4.8% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 7/42 = 16.7% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa 2/42 = 4.8% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa 13/42 = 31.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 -North East Africa 15/42 = 35.7% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic 1/42 = 2.4% J2-M172 -Arabic 2/42 = 4.8% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Arabs/Gaalien (Agriculturists; n=50; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic) 3/50 = 6.0% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa 3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa 3/50 = 6.0% E1b1b1a3-V22 North East Africa 5/50 = 10.0% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M 170, J-12f2, K-M9)Western Asia 2/50 = 4.0% I-M170 Near East 18/50 = 36.0% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic 2/50 = 4.0% J2-M172 Arabic 3/50 = 6.0% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) Southwestern Asia 1/50 = 2.0% R1-M173(xR1b1-P25) Chadic 7/50 = 14.0% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Arabs/Meseria (Nomadic Pastoralists; n=28; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic) 1/28 = 3.6% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa 3/28 = 10.7% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa 3/28 = 10.7% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) Western Asia 2/28 = 7.1% I-M170 - South West Asia 12/28 = 42.9% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic 7/28 = 25.0% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Arabs/Arakien (Agriculturists; n=24; Afro-Asiatic, Semitic) 2/24 = 8.3% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) - North East Africa 1/24 = 4.2% E1b1b1a1b-V32 North East Africa 1/24 = 4.2% E1b1b1a3-V22 North East Africa 2/24 = 8.3% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) West Asia 16/24 = 66.7% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic 2/24 = 8.3% R1b1-P25 Chadic
Sudanese Arab total: 3/102 = 2.9% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 6/102 = 5.9% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) - North East Africa 7/102 = 6.9% E1b1b1a1b-V32 - North East Africa 4/102 = 3.9% E1b1b1a3-V22 - North East Africa 10/102 = 9.8% F-M89(xH1-M52, I-M170, J-12f2, K-M9) West Asia 4/102 = 3.9% I-M170 South West Asia 46/102 = 45.1% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic 2/102 = 2.0% J2-M172 - Arabic 3/102 = 2.9% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) - South west Asia 1/102 = 1.0% R1-M173(xR1b1-P25) - Chadic 16/102 = 15.7% R1b1-P25 - Chadic
Masalit (Agriculturists; n=32; Nilo-Saharan, Maban) 6/32 = 18.8% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 1/32 = 3.1% B-M60 - Nilotic 1/32 = 3.1% E1b1b1a-M78(xE1b1b1a1-V12, E1b1b1a2-V13, E1b1b1a3-V22, E1b1b1a4-V65) - North East Africa 17/32 = 53.1% E1b1b1a1b-V32 - North East Africa 5/32 = 15.6% E1b1b1a3-V22 - North East Africa 2/32 = 6.3% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic
Fur (Agriculturists; n=32; Nilo-Saharan, Fur) 10/32 = 31.3% A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 1/32 = 3.1% B-M60 - Nilotic 13/32 = 40.6% E1b1b1a1b-V32 - North East Africa 6/32 = 18.8% E1b1b1a3-V22 - North East Africa 2/32 = 6.3% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) - Arabic
Copts (Agriculturists; n=33; Afro-Asiatic, Ancient Egyptian > Semitic) 5/33 = 15.2% B-M60 - Nilotic 2/33 = 6.1% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa 5/33 = 15.2% E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa 13/33 = 39.4% J-12f2(xJ2-M172) Arabic 2/33 = 6.1% J2-M172 - Arabic 1/33 = 3.0% K-M9(xL-M11, O-M175, P-M74) - South West Asia 5/33 = 15.2% R1b1-P25 -- Chadic
Sudanese (Pastoralist/AgriPastoralist Nilotes (Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk) Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic) A3B2 (28/53 = 52.8%), - Nilotic B(16/53 = 30.2%), -Nilotic E1b1b1a1 (V12+V22 +32)- 9/53 = 17.0%. - North East Africa
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: Haplogroup J in itself is most likely African. J* peaks in territories near in or around Africa.
J2-M172 is African ... J (Y-DNA), more than likely originated in East Africa also.
J1 moved into Yemen, While J2 spread from Egypt into the Levant
J1 were Nomads similar to the Beja and Tigre, While J2 were farmers in affiliation to Nile Valley populations.
Areas like Socotra (a few miles outside off of Somalia) still have the highest % of J*.
Both J1 and J2 have African origins... J*(xJ1, J2) is the oldest form of J ever found, it was found in and near Africa.
70% J* in Socotra (Cerny) 7.7% J* in Oman (Di Giacomo)
According to the most recent studies, most of the "Eurasian" tagged haplogroups developed either in Africa or originated among populations who spanned between both "Southwest Asia" and Africa.
I have not wrote anything in awhile here.
quote: Both J1 and J2 have African origins...
So this would be incorrect? J1 and J2 is not african?
Anyway it seems to me that while most sudanese arabs do have euro-asian admixture from info i have seen far overtime,most sudanese do not have euro-asian admixture,and i am talking about northern sudan.
There are other africans in northern sudan that are not arab and did not mix with arabs. I posted some info about the sudanese nubians too on the first page as well.
The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations
Jacques Chiaroni 2010
Haplogroup J1 is a prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East. We report the frequency and YSTR diversity data for its major sub-clade (J1e). The overall expansion time estimated from 453 chromosomes is 10 000 years. Moreover, the previously described J1 (DYS388=13) chromosomes, frequently found in the Caucasus and eastern Anatolian populations, were ancestral to J1e and displayed an expansion time of 9000 years. For J1e, the Zagros/Taurus mountain region displays the highest haplotype diversity, although the J1e frequency increases toward the peripheral Arabian Peninsula. The southerly pattern of decreasing expansion time estimates is consistent with the serial drift and founder effect processes. The first such migration is predicted to have occurred at the onset of the Neolithic, and accordingly J1e parallels the establishment of rain-fed agriculture and semi-nomadic herders throughout the Fertile Crescent. Subsequently, J1e lineages might have been involved in episodes of the expansion of pastoralists into arid habitats coinciding with the spread of Arabic and other Semitic-speaking populations.
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By the way some of those sudanese arabs are racially white and some are racially brown,but most black arabized sudanese arabs do not have euro-asian admixture. Remember many northern black sudanese became arabized to avoid raids and rape. This info was mention in some of the nubian books and african history books i have read overtime. I posted the info a number of times before.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations
Jacques Chiaroni 2010
Haplogroup J1 is a prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East. We report the frequency and YSTR diversity data for its major sub-clade (J1e). The overall expansion time estimated from 453 chromosomes is 10 000 years. Moreover, the previously described J1 (DYS388=13) chromosomes, frequently found in the Caucasus and eastern Anatolian populations, were ancestral to J1e and displayed an expansion time of 9000 years. For J1e, the Zagros/Taurus mountain region displays the highest haplotype diversity, although the J1e frequency increases toward the peripheral Arabian Peninsula. The southerly pattern of decreasing expansion time estimates is consistent with the serial drift and founder effect processes. The first such migration is predicted to have occurred at the onset of the Neolithic, and accordingly J1e parallels the establishment of rain-fed agriculture and semi-nomadic herders throughout the Fertile Crescent. Subsequently, J1e lineages might have been involved in episodes of the expansion of pastoralists into arid habitats coinciding with the spread of Arabic and other Semitic-speaking populations.
This is correct. I posted some info about this before by the way on this forum.
I just sent a email to you about this with my further thoughts.
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quote: Other studies (PRÜFER ET AL 2014, MEYER ET AL 2012, TISHKOFF ET AL 2009) have shown that, while the San and Mbuti are the most diverged from all other populations sampled, the Mandenka and Yoruba populations have only recently separated and the Dinka population shares some ancestry with non-African populations. The San and Mbuti projections onto YRI show a slight excess of rare alleles, suggesting some admixture from their ancestors into the ancestors of YRI
Note the above about the Dinka..........they "shares some ancestry with non-African populations." According to Amun Ra the troll that should not be the case since they are mostly A/B non L3 population. And remember:
quote: These results mean that we have not identified any sub-Saharan African sample that we are confident has no evidence of back-to-Africa migration. Our best candidate at present is the Dinka but it is possible that with a phased genome or large sample sizes we would detect evidence of non-African ancestry in this population as well.
Dinka sit closest to Eurasians.....have less Neanderthal and Yoruba.....they are Primarily an A/B population........they share "some ancestry with non-African populations." yet they are the "best candidate at present" for a "sub-Saharan African sample that we are confident has no evidence of back-to-Africa migration"
Anyone looking for the context of the quote can simply GOOGLE IT.
This reminds me of the study 2016 Rotimi et al. Ancient Human Migration after Out-of-Africa. Tell me Beyoku, what is your take of study? Do you believe there were more than one OOA expansions?
What about you Firewall or anyone else with sense?
I personally believe there are sequential OOA ancestries that were made cryptic due to expansions of various Sub-Saharan ancestries (pre-Bantu) as well as later back-migrations from Eurasia. This is why Lazaridis' so-called 'Basal Eurasian' may very well be one of those subsequent OOA ancestries.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: When i look up current info for modern nubians they will mention nubians in egypt,sudan,hill nubians,nubians of darfur etc..
When looking at the dna info for modern nubians later on the study on wiki is really talking about nile valley nubians in the sudan on the nile.
Here some examples.
quote:
Genetics Y-DNA
Y-DNA analysis by Hassan et al. (2008) on a sample of 39 Nubians found that: Around 17 of his Nubian samples from Sudan carried haplogroup J 9 belonged to the haplogroup E1b1b clade
M-DNA Regarding the M-DNA lineages, Hassan (2009) found that approximately 83% of their Nubian samples carried various subclades of the Africa-centered macrohaplogroup L. Of these, the most frequent were:
quote: So this study above is not talking about hill nubians,nubians of darfur,nubians in chad or near the chad border or even nubians in kenya and uganda or arabized hill nubians and arabized darfur nubians.
So you have to be careful reading that info because it's misleading. For nubians and arabized nubians outside the nile valley sudan and to have get the dna info for nubians in egypt,kenya,uganda,darfur,chad,noba hills etc...
Someone needs to do a edit and make it clear for the nubians wiki page that the dna study is not for other modern nubians outside the nile valley sudan.
For example i do not see this info at all for hill nubians.
Hill Nubians and others.(Central sudan)
quote: (Nilo-Saharan, Eastern Sudanic) 46 % A3b2-M13 - Nilotic 14.2% B-M60 - Nilotic 14.2% E1b1b-M215(xE1b1b1a-M7.8. - North East Africa 25 % E1b1b1a1-V12(xE1b1b1a1b-V32) North East Africa
For hill nubians i will have look for info for the noba hills for example.
Another point most arab sudanese do have admixture but here is something else that is misleading.The study for arabs in the sudan is including brown and white ones and they are large number in the sudan or arabs who are from sudan. If you take out the black arabs and only focus on black arabs of sudan then most do not have arab dna or other race admixture. Keep in mind when arab dna is talked about for sudanese arabs that study often is talking about brown and white ones as well. Most modern nubians or most modern BLACK nubians do not have other race admixture as well. The reason i say modern black nubians is because there are some modern black nubians who are not black. Most are black however.
Note- Changing the subject here. In real life Huge numbers of White americans( hispanic whites and non hispanics) have modern native and black ancestry but that's not talk about as often. I think i read something recently saying it's the majority of white americans. If not then a large minority of white americans,but i think it's majority from new recent reports.
Looking at recent dna for white afrikaners from south africa,all of them have other race admixture.
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Modern nubians census update. 2,585,700 nubians.
Egypt
quote: Nile nubians Nubian, Arabized Population 553,000 Nubian, Fedicca-Mohas Population 458,000 Nubian, Kunuz Population 55,000
Sudan
quote: Nile nubians Dongolawi Population 78,000 Nubian, Fedicca-Mohas Population 569,000
Darfur nubians Midobi Population 92,500 Birgid Population 27,000
Hill nubians Uncu, Ghulfan Population 41,000 Kadaru Population 30,000 Dair, Thaminyi Population 3,000 Delen, Warki Population 13,000 Garko Population 33,000 Wali Population 19,000 El Hugeirat Population 3,200
Debri, Wei Population 2,500 Jebel Debri, located south of the Ghulfan Massif
Other Afitti, Ditti Population 5,100
Arabized nubians Darfur nubians Birgid, Arabized Population 167,000 Midob, Tidda Arabized Population 100,000
Hill nubians Ghulfan, Arabized Population 51,000 Dilling, Arabized Population 86,000 Kadaru, Arabized Population 54,000 Karko, Arabized Population 28,000 Wali, Arabized 59,000
Kenya; Uganda
quote: Nubi Population: 58,500
Note-there are more nubians in the sudan then egypt and most nubians in the sudan are not nile valley ones.
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Most modern nubians or most modern BLACK nubians do not have other race admixture as well. Note- The reason i say modern black nubians is because there are some modern black nubians who are not black. Most are black however.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Most modern nubians or most modern BLACK nubians do not have other race admixture as well. Note- The reason i say modern black nubians is because there are some modern black nubians who are not black. Most are black however.
What is the basis of the identification of "Nubians"? Most of these groups do not share a common culture or language. For example the "hill Nubians' are what are most often referred to as the Nuba People. They do no have a common culture with the Beja people or with the Dinka people or with the people around Aswan. There should be better labels for these groups.
And what do you mean by some of these people are 'not black'?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
That's seen in 1st to 4th cataract Nubians. During the Ottoman period they had Bosnian, Hungarian, Circassian, Kurdish, and Turkish troops stationed among them.
They also have input from Beja, a presumably ancient African group supposedly descended from geographic or tribal Medjay (as distinct from the AE multi-ethnic Medjay 'police force'.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Most modern nubians or most modern BLACK nubians do not have other race admixture as well. Note- The reason i say modern black nubians is because there are some modern black nubians who are not black. Most are black however.
Why anyone confuses Nubians with other people in Sudan and South Sudan is due to their own efforts. I use Sudan. I find 'the Sudan' confusing since the whole swathe from the Atlantic to the Nile Basin south of Sahel and north of Forest is called 'the Sudan'. This follows from Arabs, Europeans, and Berbers just seeing black skinned peoples without regard to kingdom, empire, or national self-distinctions.
I didn't see where you listed the below Sudan or South Sudan peoples as Nubians.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: What is the basis of the identification of "Nubians"? Most of these groups do not share a common culture or language. For example the "hill Nubians' are what are most often referred to as the Nuba People. They do no have a common culture with the Beja people or with the Dinka people or with the people around Aswan. There should be better labels for these groups.
Nubians
quote: Nubians (/ˈnuːbiənz, ˈnjuː-/) are an ethno-linguistic group of people who are indigenous to the region which is now present-day Northern Sudan and southern Egypt. They originate from the early inhabitants of the central Nile valley, believed to be one of the earliest cradles of civilization. They speak Nubian languages, part of the Northern Eastern Sudanic languages.
Language Modern Nubians speak Nubian languages. They belong to the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan phylum. But there is some uncertainty regarding the classification of the languages spoken in Nubia in antiquity. There is some evidence that Cushitic languages were spoken in parts of Lower (northern) Nubia, an ancient region which straddles present day Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan, and that Eastern Sudanic languages were spoken in Upper and Central Nubia, before the spread of Eastern Sudanic languages even further north into Lower Nubia.
Culture Nubians have developed a common identity, which has been celebrated in poetry, novels, music and storytelling.
Nubian languages
quote: The Nubian languages (Arabic: لغات نوبية : lughāt nūbiyyah) are a group of related languages spoken by the Nubians. They form a branch of the Eastern Sudanic languages, which is part of the wider Nilo-Saharan phylum. Initially, Nubian languages were spoken throughout much of Sudan, but as a result of arabization they are today mostly limited to the Nile Valley between Aswan (southern Egypt) and Al Dabbah as well as villages in the Nuba mountains and Darfur.
Languages
quote: Rilly (2010) distinguishes the following Nubian languages, spoken by in total about 900,000 speakers: Nobiin, the largest Nubian language with 545,000 speakers in Egypt, Sudan, and the Nubian diaspora. Previously known by the geographic terms Mahas and Fadicca/Fiadicca. As late as 1863 this language, or a closely related dialect, was known to have been spoken by the arabized Nubian Shaigiya tribe.
Kenzi (endonym: Mattokki) with 100,000 speakers in Egypt and Dongolawi (endonym: Andaandi) with 180,000 speakers in Sudan. They are no longer considered a single language, but closely related. The split between Kenzi and Dongolawi is dated relatively recently to the 14th century.
Midob (Meidob) with 30,000 speakers. The language is spoken primarily in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
Birgid, now extinct, was spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei, with the last known speakers alive in the 1970s. It was the predominant language between the corridor of Nyala and al-Fashir in the north and the Bahr al-Arab in the south as recently as 1860.
Hill Nubian or Kordofan Nubian, a group of closely related languages or dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains; in particular by the Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru. An extinct language, Haraza, is known only from a few dozen words recalled by village elders in 1923.
Classification
quote: Traditionally, the Nubian languages are divided into three branches: Northern (Nile), Western (Darfur), and Central.
Hill Nubians
quote: Hill Nubians are a group of Nubian peoples who inhabit the northern Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan state, Sudan. They speak the Hill Nubian languages. Despite their scattered presence and linguistic diversity, they all refer to themselves as Ajang and call their language Ajangwe, "the Ajang language".
Origin Canadian linguist Robin Thelwall believes that the Hill Nubians probably didn't migrate to the Nuba Mountains from Nubia, considering their linguistic divergence, and instead probably reached the Nuba Mountains from central Kordofan during the earliest Nubian migrations.Joseph Greenberg believes that any split between Hill and Nile Nubian must have occurred at least 2,500 years before present.
Hill Nubian languages
quote: The Hill Nubian languages, also called Kordofan Nubian, are a dialect continuum of Nubian languages spoken by the Hill Nubians in the northern Nuba Mountains of Sudan.
quote:
And what do you mean by some of these people are 'not black'?
Some or a few nubians are brown or white today from what i have been told.In other words some do not look black. Some here have said there are nubians today who do not look black. Most do but not all today.
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I look up this group below and they are not modern day nubians ethnically but the others listed above are. Afitti, Ditti Population 5,100
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: What is the basis of the identification of "Nubians"? Most of these groups do not share a common culture or language. For example the "hill Nubians' are what are most often referred to as the Nuba People. They do no have a common culture with the Beja people or with the Dinka people or with the people around Aswan. There should be better labels for these groups.
Nubians
quote: Nubians (/ˈnuːbiənz, ˈnjuː-/) are an ethno-linguistic group of people who are indigenous to the region which is now present-day Northern Sudan and southern Egypt. They originate from the early inhabitants of the central Nile valley, believed to be one of the earliest cradles of civilization. They speak Nubian languages, part of the Northern Eastern Sudanic languages.
Language Modern Nubians speak Nubian languages. They belong to the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan phylum. But there is some uncertainty regarding the classification of the languages spoken in Nubia in antiquity. There is some evidence that Cushitic languages were spoken in parts of Lower (northern) Nubia, an ancient region which straddles present day Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan, and that Eastern Sudanic languages were spoken in Upper and Central Nubia, before the spread of Eastern Sudanic languages even further north into Lower Nubia.
Culture Nubians have developed a common identity, which has been celebrated in poetry, novels, music and storytelling.
Nubian languages
quote: The Nubian languages (Arabic: لغات نوبية : lughāt nūbiyyah) are a group of related languages spoken by the Nubians. They form a branch of the Eastern Sudanic languages, which is part of the wider Nilo-Saharan phylum. Initially, Nubian languages were spoken throughout much of Sudan, but as a result of arabization they are today mostly limited to the Nile Valley between Aswan (southern Egypt) and Al Dabbah as well as villages in the Nuba mountains and Darfur.
Languages
quote: Rilly (2010) distinguishes the following Nubian languages, spoken by in total about 900,000 speakers: Nobiin, the largest Nubian language with 545,000 speakers in Egypt, Sudan, and the Nubian diaspora. Previously known by the geographic terms Mahas and Fadicca/Fiadicca. As late as 1863 this language, or a closely related dialect, was known to have been spoken by the arabized Nubian Shaigiya tribe.
Kenzi (endonym: Mattokki) with 100,000 speakers in Egypt and Dongolawi (endonym: Andaandi) with 180,000 speakers in Sudan. They are no longer considered a single language, but closely related. The split between Kenzi and Dongolawi is dated relatively recently to the 14th century.
Midob (Meidob) with 30,000 speakers. The language is spoken primarily in and around the Malha volcanic crater in North Darfur.
Birgid, now extinct, was spoken north of Nyala around Menawashei, with the last known speakers alive in the 1970s. It was the predominant language between the corridor of Nyala and al-Fashir in the north and the Bahr al-Arab in the south as recently as 1860.
Hill Nubian or Kordofan Nubian, a group of closely related languages or dialects spoken in various villages in the northern Nuba Mountains; in particular by the Dilling, Debri, and Kadaru. An extinct language, Haraza, is known only from a few dozen words recalled by village elders in 1923.
Classification
quote: Traditionally, the Nubian languages are divided into three branches: Northern (Nile), Western (Darfur), and Central.
Hill Nubians
quote: Hill Nubians are a group of Nubian peoples who inhabit the northern Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan state, Sudan. They speak the Hill Nubian languages. Despite their scattered presence and linguistic diversity, they all refer to themselves as Ajang and call their language Ajangwe, "the Ajang language".
Origin Canadian linguist Robin Thelwall believes that the Hill Nubians probably didn't migrate to the Nuba Mountains from Nubia, considering their linguistic divergence, and instead probably reached the Nuba Mountains from central Kordofan during the earliest Nubian migrations.Joseph Greenberg believes that any split between Hill and Nile Nubian must have occurred at least 2,500 years before present.
Hill Nubian languages
quote: The Hill Nubian languages, also called Kordofan Nubian, are a dialect continuum of Nubian languages spoken by the Hill Nubians in the northern Nuba Mountains of Sudan.
quote:
And what do you mean by some of these people are 'not black'?
Some or a few nubians are brown or white today from what i have been told.In other words some do not look black. Some here have said there are nubians today who do not look black. Most do but not all today.
Remember, "Nubians" can be mixed...especially in modern times.
-------------------- "Nothing hurts a racist more than the absolute truth and a punch to the face" Posts: 101 | From: United States | Registered: Aug 2020
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Remember, "Nubians" can be mixed...especially in modern times.
Yes there are mixed race(bi-racial) nubians and nubians that have other forms of admixture not mixed(not half and half). Most nubians today do not have any other race admixture however,even more so in the past.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thx 4/t 21st C update.
Murdock (1969) is a reliable old ethnic goto once some language of the times is filtered. He puzzles me on Tigre as "tribal" Beja when they're surely related to Ethiopians like Amhara, Tigrinya, and them. Not that it's anything to do with Nubian. Just something strange like his classification of Afitti.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: I look up this group below and they are not modern day nubians ethnically but the others listed above are. Afitti, Ditti Population 5,100
These guys are Ethiopian and Eritrean with no Sudanese presence and are more similar to other Ethiopia Semitic groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigrayans
Both groups have been genetically tested and i THINK Tigre are more like Beja with strong M78 V32 lineages but i dont want to be a liar and i am not running this data through a predictor. Going from memory on other 10 year old data.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
In this ADMIXTURE from Hollfelder (2017) are two distinct Beja speakers. Hadendowa fit N&E Sudan genomics, Beni Amer fall inline with peoples in neighbor nations bordering the Red Sea. Eritrea and Ethiopia in particular.
Her article allows for three generic geographic genomic groupings * South Sudan __________________ majority Dark Blue featuring Red * Darfur - Kordofan corridor ________ majority Dark Blue featuring Light Blue * North and east Sudan ___________ majority Light Blue featuring Brown
Stro did that updated run ^ including little used aDNA. It stands toe to toe with the professional Hollfelder. While mostly co-signed deliveries, each also add their own unique perspectives not adduced in the other. So here, Stro above Nina below, are both stripped down to the two Sudans and their neighbor to the east.
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Them Lil Ks, of less than 15%, are incisive to 'clustering'.
These guys are Ethiopian and Eritrean with no Sudanese presence and are more similar to other Ethiopia Semitic groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigrayans
Both groups have been genetically tested and i THINK Tigre are more like Beja with strong M78 V32 lineages but i dont want to be a liar and i am not running this data through a predictor. Going from memory on other 10 year old data.
This is why I don't see calling these people "Nubians" makes any sense. Meaning how do you do clustering on migratory populations that are not fixed in time or space going back 20,000 years or more based on the concept of "Nubia"? If we ever got a substantial amount of DNA from ancient Nile Valley populations going back that far or farther it is better to define clusters based on the data not by contemporary ethnic groups. I personally believe that there was a large ancient population cluster based around the Red Sea from Somalia North into Egypt that was part of the mix. But that isn't aligned with the modern concept of "Nubia". This is why you don't see modern terms like "France" or "Germany" when talking about ancient DNA clusters in Europe. It implies a fixed population structure that can't be extrapolated back that far in time. Which is why modern mixture has to be filtered out in order to try and isolate ancient DNA patterns in the absence of actual ancient DNA. You can't assume these people have just been sitting in one spot all that time and not mixing with other groups even just within the surrounding regions.
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These guys are Ethiopian and Eritrean with no Sudanese presence and are more similar to other Ethiopia Semitic groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigrayans
Both groups have been genetically tested and i THINK Tigre are more like Beja with strong M78 V32 lineages but i dont want to be a liar and i am not running this data through a predictor. Going from memory on other 10 year old data.
This is why I don't see calling these people "Nubians" makes any sense. Meaning how do you do clustering on migratory populations that are not fixed in time or space going back 20,000 years or more based on the concept of "Nubia"? If we ever got a substantial amount of DNA from ancient Nile Valley populations going back that far or farther it is better to define clusters based on the data not by contemporary ethnic groups. I personally believe that there was a large ancient population cluster based around the Red Sea from Somalia North into Egypt that was part of the mix. But that isn't aligned with the modern concept of "Nubia". This is why you don't see modern terms like "France" or "Germany" when talking about ancient DNA clusters in Europe. It implies a fixed population structure that can't be extrapolated back that far in time. Which is why modern mixture has to be filtered out in order to try and isolate ancient DNA patterns in the absence of actual ancient DNA. You can't assume these people have just been sitting in one spot all that time and not mixing with other groups even just within the surrounding regions.
Wouldn't it be nice if those classifications weren't used so readily today? you'd think there'd be more caution, but nope. As we know and can realistic presume that not one African group stayed a transfixed population that stagnated in one area for more than 10,000 years let alone 100,000. They moved, interacted with others, intermarried...etc.
Especially during the continents more extreme changes in seasons and things of that nature, there's plenty of evidence of what you are describing like, for example:
In relation to the ethic population of PUNT.
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If the people from Kemet were making periodical expeditions to Punt in ancient times to bring back exotic plants, animals and spices, then there must have been a history and relationship. This is attested to in the texts from the period and that only makes sense if these groups were part of the ancient patterns of migration into and out of the Nile Valley.
Interesting recent video on some finds in the area between Sudan and Eritrea:
quote:Complexity and Connectivity Between the Nile Valley and the Red Sea in the 3rd and 2nd Mill. BC. A View from Eastern Sudan and Mersa/Wadi Gawasis
Not only that but just looking at the portraits from ancient times, you clearly see that many of the so called "Nubians" of that time looked more like modern Nuba who are much further South in Sudan.
Which means there have been a lot of movements of populations over the last 10,000 years.
One example of this is the ancient parasol seen in the tomb of Huy:
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