quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Ok! Let's rephrase...
It's odd asking somebody to address a lack. I acknowledge the above info
The primary question is are modern people of the Maghreb primarily or African ancestry or not
No snake - its not the primary question as it is obvious some are African and some are Iberian, European, Eurasian, and Syrian in ancestry and many are of all of these. Your "question" has been answered on this forum many times over, and is irrelevant.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You tell me…this is your expertise… along with Sage/Jari etc …seems like Lioness know a thing or two about the history also.
This must be a joke or something, but please do not insult me in comparing me with trolls like Lyin _SS who cuts and posts almost everything without even putting them in quotes and knows nearly NOTHING about Arab history, population, language, ethnohistory, geography or culture.
Don't give credence or credibility to trolls that are just PLAYING WITH YOU!
THANK YOU!
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posted
Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.
Who are you talking to xyyman? I'm assuming its not to me as anyone with just plain old common sense knows LYIN_ SS isn't in any field.
BTW - there are no "geneticists" on this forum except for maybe one. People learning about genetics are called "people learning about genetics" not "geneticists". lol! And the one probable geneticist that sometimes posts on this forum is definitely not posted on this post yet.
Happy for your IQ results though. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Simply. Yes, they are primarily African. What is labeled “Sahara-Arabian” is in fact Saharan-African”. So yes, I agree with your numbers ie the one published by DNATribes.
Also attested by ;
========= Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman Alicia M Cadenas1, Peter A Underhill
Distribution of E3b1-M35 derivatives The presence of signature sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages in the south Arabian populations has been attributed to various waves of gene flow to the region, including that associated with the East African slave trade. This is apparent from the exact mtDNA haplotype matches between lineages in Yemen and East Africa, including those associated with the Bantu expansion.20 The presence of the E3a-M2 lineage in Oman (7.4%),4 Yemen (3.2%), UAE (5.5%) and Qatar (2.8%) could lead to the oversimplified conclusion that these chromosomes are also a contribution from the East African slave trade.
The E3b1-M35 sub-haplogroups, M123 and M78, are believed to have spread from East Africa to North Africa and later expanded eastward through the Levantine corridor and westward to northwestern Africa. E3b1c-M123 disseminated primarily to the east.4 The distribution of the E3b1-M35 derivatives in Yemen, Qatar and UAE agrees with their arrival by expansion via the Levantine corridor rather than through the Horn of Africa
Based on the distribution and high STR differentiation of cluster d, its dispersal may have occurred early, the first to spread the E3b1a-M78 chromosomes to North Africa and THEN the Near East
=====
Debate with someone else. Like a picture spammer. Your are out matched with me..
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.
Who are you talking to xyyman? I'm assuming its not to me as anyone with just plain old common sense knows LYIN_ SS isn't in any field.
BTW - there are no "geneticists" on this forum except for maybe one. People learning about genetics are called "people learning about genetics" not "geneticists". lol! And the one probable geneticist that sometimes posts on this forum is definitely not posted on this post yet.
Happy for your IQ results though.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
BTW – you do realize this is exactly what G. Sergi proposed by study the shape of skulls. The “Mediterranean Race” originated in East Africa, spread to North Africa, into Europe, then the Levant into Arabia and Persia. Does not matter what label is put on them. They were black Africans when they started out as PN2 during pre-Neolithic and Neolithic times.
He proposed that all North Africans, Iberians, Cretes, Etruscan, Sardinians, Phoenicians, Persians, early Turks, British megalithics …originated in Africa. Now DNA is proving him right.
Also – If I was a betting man I would bet these SSA peoples of Arabia look like modern day Arabs proving just as with Rameses III,,,there is no race.
===== Quote: The E3b1-M35 sub-haplogroups, M123 and M78, are believed to have spread from East Africa to North Africa and later expanded eastward through the Levantine corridor and westward to northwestern Africa. E3b1c-M123 disseminated primarily to the east.4 The distribution of the E3b1-M35 derivatives in Yemen, Qatar and UAE agrees with their arrival by expansion via the Levantine corridor rather than through the Horn of Africa
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Algeria = 83.4% Libya = 89.4% MZab =87.1% North Morocco = 89.2% South Morocco =69.8% Saharawi=88.9% Tunisia = 86.6%
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
they are primarily African
dana I thought you disagreed with this
do you want to retract what you said earlier?
it's o.k. I won't judge
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
However the data don't lie. It is simple logic.
1. Berbers are indigenous to North Africa. 2. Berbers are not admixed with Turks/West Asian and very little European. 3. The one group that is out of place are Moroccan Jews...also modern Egyptians. 4. Berbers have more SSA genes compared European or Turks. 5. Obviously the south Arabs are African/Berber migrants. They carry similar SSA SNPs as Berbers. 6. Any idiot will deduce if the migration was from Arabia to North Africa. The Turkish SNP will be prevalent in North Africa. And this is NOT the case.
So yes, Lioness. Berbers are "Negros", the SNPs prove it
xwhyman: danacentric aka your "sweetness" is not a DNA girl she's a hisstory chick. She's has the opposite tunnel vision you have Lioness productions, however, combines history with genetics, giving a more complete picture
Interesting your comment reveals even the Kabyles, the largest berber population (5+ million) and the Mozabites are Negroes. I'll have to look into that
I noticed something here. Your remarks here are derived form the DNATribes anaylsis which applies to the Maghreb:
Algeria Libya MZab North Morocco South Morocco Saharawi Tunisia
The way you are speaking seems to interpret that the entire population of each one of these countries as "berber".
The term "berber" can be ambiguos. I think although these countries have a lot of bebers but I think as a whole these countries should be called Maghrebians. That is less ambiguous. Most of the people that get called "berber" don't even call themselves that. Are they the vast majority of all these countires berber? It depends on how you define berber. I think it is better not to get caught up in what the term means on a precise basis, DNATribes did not call it "Berber African Region"
Posts: 43022 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
For those who don't like to read...here are the pictures..LOL!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BTW – you do realize this is exactly what G. Sergi proposed by study the shape of skulls. The “Mediterranean Race” originated in East Africa, spread to North Africa, into Europe, then the Levant into Arabia and Persia. Does not matter what label is put on them. They were black Africans when they started out as PN2 during pre-Neolithic and Neolithic times.
He proposed that all North Africans, Iberians, Cretes, Etruscan, Sardinians, Phoenicians, Persians, early Turks, British megalithics …originated in Africa. Now DNA is proving him right.
Also – If I was a betting man I would bet these SSA peoples of Arabia look like modern day Arabs proving just as with Rameses III,,,there is no race.
===== Quote: The E3b1-M35 sub-haplogroups, M123 and M78, are believed to have spread from East Africa to North Africa and later expanded eastward through the Levantine corridor and westward to northwestern Africa. E3b1c-M123 disseminated primarily to the east.4 The distribution of the E3b1-M35 derivatives in Yemen, Qatar and UAE agrees with their arrival by expansion via the Levantine corridor rather than through the Horn of Africa
Sub-Saharans in Arabia and Persia.
Saharans in Arabia and Persia. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: % of Saharan-Arabian SNPs
Algeria = 83.4% Libya = 89.4% MZab =87.1% North Morocco = 89.2% South Morocco =69.8% Saharawi=88.9% Tunisia = 86.6%
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
they are primarily African
dana I thought you disagreed with this
do you want to retract what you said earlier?
it's o.k. I won't judge
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
However the data don't lie. It is simple logic.
1. Berbers are indigenous to North Africa. 2. Berbers are not admixed with Turks/West Asian and very little European. 3. The one group that is out of place are Moroccan Jews...also modern Egyptians. 4. Berbers have more SSA genes compared European or Turks. 5. Obviously the south Arabs are African/Berber migrants. They carry similar SSA SNPs as Berbers. 6. Any idiot will deduce if the migration was from Arabia to North Africa. The Turkish SNP will be prevalent in North Africa. And this is NOT the case.
So yes, Lioness. Berbers are "Negros", the SNPs prove it
xwhyman: danacentric aka your "sweetness" is not a DNA girl she's a hisstory chick. She's has the opposite tunnel vision you have Lioness productions, however, combines history with genetics, giving a more complete picture
Interesting your comment reveals even the Kabyles, the largest berber population (5+ million) and the Mozabites are Negroes. I'll have to look into that
I noticed something here. Your remarks here are derived form the DNATribes anaylsis which applies to the Maghreb:
Algeria Libya MZab North Morocco South Morocco Saharawi Tunisia
The way you are speaking seems to interpret that the entire population of each one of these countries as "berber".
The term "berber" can be ambiguos. I think although these countries have a lot of bebers but I think as a whole these countries should be called Maghrebians. That is less ambiguous. Most of the people that get called "berber" don't even call themselves that. Are they the vast majority of all these countires berber? It depends on how you define berber. I think it is better not to get caught up in what the term means on a precise basis, DNATribes did not call it "Berber African Region"
Leave me out of it LYINGEST One of all. Your trolling is not cute and not worth responding to, besides being a waste of your time. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^^^ jealous troll trying to get attention on a lioness thread, and a usual zero contribution of information, unlike any poster on this thread
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shouldn't you be busy with your second job right now selling fake passports and what not?
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ jealous troll trying to get attention on a lioness thread, and a usual zero contribution of information, unlike any poster on this thread
posted
Actually the lioness, doesn't say anything special in this thread (in general) beside what everybody already knows and now confirmed through genetics.
That is that most coastal North Africans are of West Asian extract, either recently through the muslim conquest (7th century) or through more ancient migration. In very Ancient times (Aterian culture, Pleistocene, Holocene,etc) North Africa was also occupied mainly by black African people but those days are long gone. Obviously at that time and even for a long time afterward, the humans population was relatively very small all over the world.
Contrary to some people on this site and some Afro-centrists I don't seek to make each and every past civilizations on earth black to increase our own profile. I try to look at African history through it's own greatness and limitation. As is the history of all the people on earth. Even Europe was considered barbarians by Romans or I'm sure even by Kemites and Kushites at one point. Look at England(usa), Scandinavian countries and Germany now. All while greeks and romans are not as great as they used to be (they are still ok though).
I just happen to consider, and all evidences point toward it, that Ancient Egypt was truly fundamentally a black African civilization. That is ethnically, culturally, religiously, etc. The latest genetic test on 18th Dynasty, 20th Dynasty mummies just happens to confirms it. Ancient Egyptians were not some hamitic race or some Caucasoid looking black people but true Africans through and through. Especially true when you look back in time in the formative years of Ancient Egypt and the first dynasties. Then eventually Ancient Egypt got invaded by Hyksos, Assyrians, and other people of foreign extract. Leaving Ancient Egypt at only a fraction of it's past greatness. Dynasty 1-4, Dyn 6, Dyn 11 and 12, Dyn 18, 19 and 25 were the most African ones.
Chapel of the Tomb of Akhethotep, 5th Dynasty
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posted
Quote: "not Caucasoid looking black people but true Africans through and through...."?????
You know what ...forget it. Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Quote: "not Caucasoid looking black people but true Africans through and through...."?????
You know what ...forget it.
I knew you wouldn't completely like my post but I can't understand why it is the refutation of the hamitic race myth that is causing you problem?!?
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posted
I am not sure what the Hamitic Myth is or what is a Caucasoid, or what is "African through and through" but we need a reality check. Many or maybe most central Africans seen on TV don't fit the AEian mold. But as I said, never been to the continent.
But I do know they were not Europeans or Asians.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyzman: I try to hold my tongue with you but you are really testing my patience. You have a knack for talking without thinking...or in this case reading. The sections are bolded. It is up to you now to read more...quote from previous post
prehistoric means....pre-historic....>3000bc?
======we do not found the strong sexual bias proposed by other authors for Arabian populations and attributed to the peculiarities of the recent slave-trade [12,36]. Without dismissing the role mediated by slavery, the geographical distribution of these sub-Saharan African lineages in the Arabian Peninsula seems to indicate a prehistoric entrance of a noticeable portion of these lineages=====
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]But isn't the presence of E1b1a in Arabia and Persia tied to Medieval slave trade??! If you are referring to much more ancient and voluntary migrations of Africans into Arabia, I thought the lineages are largely E1b1b as well as even older E2?? As for 'Black Persians', they were supposedly the indigenous Elamites.
Okay, but I don't see how that answered my question. Again, I never denied prehistoric African geneflow into Arabia especially since Arabia is right next to Africa and that's where the first humans settled outside of Africa. My question was in regards to exactly what lineages you are referring to as ancient or prehistoric African geneflow into Arabia. I assumed such lineages were E1b1b and even earlier E2.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: This thread is going downhill, and its going downhill fast. DNA Tribes (and all other genome wide SNP studies) have trouble distinguishing between Eurasian and North African specific SNPs and these clowns think that this somehow supports their views, or that its somehow different from the conclusions reached by Henn et al 2012. Yet, the same buffoons have beef with Henn et al 2012's findings.
I'm getting the same feeling. That Xyz among others is caught up in a hype frenzy that they misconstrue these studies to fit their own perceptions. Posts: 26383 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.
Not to dismiss your claimed IQ scores, but I guess IQ scores aren't everything then, if you fail to comprehend the very sources you cite. Don't feel too bad, because there are many brilliant minds who don't think well when caught up in their emotions. Posts: 26383 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: either way they both originate from the Sahel rather than the Maghreb [/QB]
That would be incorrect.
"For more than three centuries, scholars have held that the 'Abid were Sudanese captives or refugees, most likely Bambara from Timbuktu [...] little of the available evidence supports this contention; instead, it indicates that nearly all 'Abid, both slaves and Haratin, were Moroccan born." - Allan R. Meyers, Origins of Moroccan 'Abid, pg 428
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: either way they both originate from the Sahel rather than the Maghreb
That would be incorrect.
"For more than three centuries, scholars have held that the 'Abid were Sudanese captives or refugees, most likely Bambara from Timbuktu [...] little of the available evidence supports this contention; instead, it indicates that nearly all 'Abid, both slaves and Haratin, were Moroccan born." - Allan R. Meyers, Origins of Moroccan 'Abid, pg 428 [/QB]
^^^ you would have to show the articles' proof of that claim
Abid al-Bukhar was an army of black slaves in Morocco under Alaouite ruler Ismail Ibn Sharif ( 1672 to 1727)
Ismail had an army of 150,000 men, graduates of the Mechraʿ er-Remel camp and pirated from the black Saharan tribes.
Popular history particularly incorrectly credits the Moroccan Sultan Ahmad al-Mansur's alleged 'conquest' in 1591 of part of the Songhai Empire, in particular Timbuktu, with bringing large numbers of captives and slaves back across the Sahara to form the Gnawa. However, the slave and gold trade with Southern Saharan African Nations had existed for centuries prior to al-Mansur's alleged 'conquest'. The Gnawa (or Gnaoua, Ghanawa, Ghanawi, Gnawi) people originated from North and West Africa; to be precise the ancient Ghanaian Empire of Ouagadougou (present day Mauritania, Senegal, Gambia, Burkino Faso and 85% of Mali (pre Gnawi/Mali Wars)). The Gnawa are an ethnic group whom, with the passing of time became a part of the Sufi order in Morocco. This kingdom bordered Morocco and Algeria's southern borders, and had a 300 year blood war with Morocco, prior to both countries forging a long lasting peace accord. Evidence of this is found is the tribal oral tradition of both countries (Soussi, Riffi, & Ashanti tribes). The result of which saw unprecedented levels of marriages between the Gnawis (ancient Ghanaians) and Soussis of Morocco. A small percentage of this community (Gnawa/Ghanawa) were given to Morocco's monarch (Mulay: to mean Emperor) as workers as a token and seal of the aforementioned accord. They traveled to Morocco by way of tribal caravans during (and external to) the hours of trade Trans-Saharan trade.
Posts: 43022 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by HERU: Wait...what are your sources?
Porch, D (1983) The Conquest of Morocco - The Bizarre History of France's Last Great Colonial Adventure, the Long Struggle to Subdue a Medieval Kingdom By Intrigue and Force of Arms 1903–1914, Knopf Porch, D, 2nd Ed (2005) The Conquest of the Sahara, Ferrar, Straus & Giroux Rogerson, B & Lavington, S Edited by (2004) Marrakech, The Red City: The City through Writers' Eyes, Sickle Moon Books Bernasek, L & Burger, H. S. (2008) Imazighen!: Beauty and Artisanship in Berber Life, Peabody Museum Press Courtney-Clarke, M & Brooks, G. (1996) Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women, Thames & Hudson Ltd, London, UK El-Ghissassi, H. (2006) Regard sur Le Laroc de Mohamed VI, Michel Lafon Ennaji, M (2005) Multilingualism, Cultural Identity and Education in Morocco, Springer, New York, USA Harris, W. (2003) Morocco that Was, Eland Books, London, UK Hart, D.M. (2000) Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco, Frank Cass Publishers Howe, M (2005) Morocco: The Islamist Awakening and Other Challenges, University of Oxford Press, New York, USA Hoffman, K.E. (2008) We Share Walls: Language, Land, and Gender in Berber Morocco, Wiley-Blackwell Maxwell, G (2000) Lords of the Atlas, Weidenfeld Nicholson Illustrated Maxwell, G (2002) Lords of the Atlas: The Rise and Fall of the House of Glaoua 1893–1956, The Lyons Press McKissack, F. & McKissack, P. (1995) The Royal Kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay: Life in Medieval Africa, Henry Holt and Co. LLC Pennell, C.R. (2003) Morocco: From Empire to Independence, OneWorld Publications Pennel, C.R. (2001) Morocco since 1830: A History, NYU Press, USA
That the Gnawa originate in the Sahel/West Africa is the mainstream point of view. Your author is claiming an alternative point of view
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posted
^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.
The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.
Though it probably disturbs YOU. Posts: 26383 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
So it seems the Wikipedia author LYIN _SS used has things for the most part right. The Djanawa or Ignaouen(Ghanaians) formed from early Mande were from North and western Africa just as the Haratin/ Ikaradan (Teda Krit) were also from North Africa stretching to the Nile.
Both of these in part made up the Zaghawa/Azawagh Berbers to which is also related the term Zaggaren/Zagran and Azgar used for the Haratin.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I'll say this about the Gnawa, it's amazing if a group of native Maghebis have songs forgiving Maghrebis for enslaving them after a forced march across the Sahara, songs that have "archaic" Bambara words no longer used in contemporary Bambara.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.
The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.
and how are you going to link Haratin currentky living in Morocco with those ancient people of the green Sahara and distinguish them from a Moroccan who might have roots in Ghana from several hundred years ago?
And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The core component of Haritin Imazighen are in all probability the most direct descendents of the historic central and north Saharans written of by Greco-Latin authors, i.e.,
Leukaethiopes
Melanogaetuli
Nigritae
Western Ethiopians (Hesperii)
Pharusii
Icthyophagi Aethiopes
etc.,
These were peoples living approximately 250 miles (or more) south of the littoral. If truly the indigenees, they may have been neolithic "Berber" speakers (after leaving the proto-language's Gharb Darfur birthplace to traverse the Sahara before reaching the Maghreb).
Haratine are a social group of formerly subjugated peoples. Some of them were always in the Sahara and just north of it. Others were kidnapped from their residences in the Western Sahel or sold out of the Western Sudan south of the sahel.
Since they are not all of one homogeneous ethnicity, the freed slaves marrying among each other created a new ethnicity. The bulk of this new ethnic group, "the One Fifth-ers", were the indigenous inhabitants of the Saharan Oases. This is not to exclude the former "owners" as part of the mix. There was sex between the male "owners" and the subordinated females as well as the subordinated males with the "owners'" wives.
Harratine are not related to the other "Berber" groups only by language. They are just as much a part of the Amazigh people by biological lineage, cultural heritage, and time immemorial habitation of the same geographic region.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.
The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.
and how are you going to link Haratin currentky living in Morocco with those ancient people of the green Sahara and distinguish them from a Moroccan who might have roots in Ghana from several hundred years ago?
And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja
The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg and Songhai/Zaghai people LYIN_ SS. And the Nilo-Saharans that became Mande speakers were already living in Sahara, Sahel, and North Africa since time immemorial. I don't get your point!
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posted
you would liken Leukaethiopes to Haratin rather then Beydane?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja
We who?
Total horseshit.
No al~Murabitun conquest of Wagadu
No al~Murabitun conversion and confederation of Sanhaja.
Sanhaja founded al~Murabitun.
Goddala were the only Sanhaja confederacy members forced into al~Muabitun movement.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg/Songhai/Zahay people
The Almorvids were Moroccans who expanded the Muslim empire from where it had had been, the North African coast and Iberia which had been conquered by the Umayyad, and they extended the empire South into the Sahel and West Africa you mentioned, under Moroccan leadership, religious fanatics conquering and converting people including the people of Ghana
Posts: 43022 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg/Songhai/Zahay people
The Almorvids were Moroccans who expanded the Muslim empire from where it had had been, the North African coast and Iberia which had been conquered by the Umayyad, and they extended the empire South into the Sahel and West Africa you mentioned, under Moroccan leadership, religious fanatics conquering and converting people including the people of Ghana
Wrong again, LYIN_SS! The black Almoravids who existed nearly 1000 years ago founded and NAMED Marrakush i.e. the early region named Morocco. They originated between the Niger, Draa and Senegal rivers. THAT'S where they began - as even Wiki knows. Not in your IMAGINED abid-owning Morocco.
Thank you for your consideration of this matter.
(Keep dreaming though - and keep hope alive. )
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you would liken Leukaethiopes to Haratin rather then Beydane?
No Mauritanian bidan until after Yemini beni Hassan Maqil.
Leukaethiopes may have been ancestral to the whites below the desert alluded to in Procopius.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Total horseshit.
You're just bored and trolling for fish to reply.
Not gonna bother posting links to the archive where all this stuff was discussed in depth.
Those interested in the facts can search themselves.
I mean who doesn't know Tekrur was Muslim before al~Murabitun?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg/Songhai/Zahay people
The Almorvids were Moroccans who expanded the Muslim empire from where it had had been, the North African coast and Iberia which had been conquered by the Umayyad, and they extended the empire South into the Sahel and West Africa you mentioned, under Moroccan leadership, religious fanatics conquering and converting people including the people of Ghana
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Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty. Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Spread Of Islam into North West Africa
PART I The Ummayad Empire
And where did the Umayyad's come from before they converted the Syrians and Turks to Islam- LYIN _ SS?
"The expedition against Algiers was followed, in 1637, by another, under the command of Captain Rainsborough, against Sallee, in Morocco. At his approach, the Moors sold a_thousand of their captives, British subjects, to Tunis and Algiers." From the e-book, White Slavery in the Barbary States, lecture by Charles Sumner, 1847. (Project Gutenberg).
Give it up LYIN _SS.lol! We all know where your going with this.
(Keep hope alive though.) Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty. Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.
Description of the 12th century Sufi Saint and Shaykh "Shaykh of the Shaykhs" of the Jazula/Gazula Berbers of the Middle Atlas from the clan of Haskura -
“One of the companions of Abu Yaaza got married. His wife asked him for a female slave, but he did not have one. So Abu Yaaza said to him, ‘I will substitute myself for the female slave,’ for he was black and had no hair on his face.” Realm of the Saint: Power and Authority in Moroccan Sufism, (1998) p. 69 by vincent cornell.
I just said Morocco was originally founded by the black Almoravids. Did you not read it?!
Just as the name of the Almoravid came into existence only after the people called Guezula and Lamtuna (Aulamidden) came to be called "the Almoravids"!
One has to come before the other, now doesn't it. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty. Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.
Description of the 12th century Sufi Saint and Shaykh of the Jazula/Gazula Berbers of the Middle Atlas from the clan of Haskura -
“One of the companions of Abu Yaaza got married. His wife asked him for a female slave, but he did not have one. So Abu Yaaza said to him, ‘I will substitute myself for the female slave,’ for he was black and had no hair on his face.” Realm of the Saint: Power and Authority in Moroccan Sufism, p. 69 vincent cornell 1998.
I just said Morocco was originally founded by the black Almoravids. Did you not read it?!
Just as the Almoravid name only came after the people called Guezula or Lamtuna (Aulamidden) came to be known as the Almoravid.
One has to come before the other now doesn't it.
Arab Conquest of Morocco
The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.
Meccan Arab Uqba bin Nafi governor of Ifriqiya on behalf of the Umayyad Caliphate armies of the third and fifth campaigns and founder of the city of Kairouan in Tunisia in 669, was head of the offensive on Morocco. He crossed North Africa and seriously shook the power of Byzantium whose presence in Africa was destroyed in 693.
It took Uqba over twenty years and three campaingns to finally annex Morocco to the Islamic Empire because of the violent opposition of the Berber tribes in North Africa.
Indeed, it was only during the eighth campaign (698-715), led by Moussa bin Nouçaïr that Morocco and Spain were finally conquered. In Morocco, two expeditions were enough for Islam to be introduced and accepted and that this country is incorporated into the Umayyad Empire in 708. Certainly, there was local resistance but at no time there was a general uprising of such as in Algeria or Tunisia where large Berber uprisings broke out, the most violent were those headed by Kosayla and Kahina (Berber warriors). Moroccan Berbers converted to Islam en masse and many of the highest responsibilities were entrusted to some of them.
Morocco’s highly individualized world, divided into many tribes were proud of their independence and with Islam there was a new religious cohesion. The new faith was never challenged by the Berbers. However the Arab presence and its abuses (mainly oppressive taxation) was often attacked. The Berber uprising, in 740, against the power of the caliphs of the East and its Arab representatives living in Morocco, caused a rupture between Morocco and the East and in the name of Islam. This Kharijite revolt was directed against the caliph. Indeed, for the Kharijites, the caliphate was a return to the best of the Muslims faith and origins.
This doctrine, from the East, was the subject of fervent adherence by the Berbers in Morocco. It advocated equality in social and political democracy and its followers were hunted down by the Umayyad caliphate. For them this heresy threatened the very essence of its power and was unacceptable.
Born in Morocco, the revolt spread to the whole of North Africa and was narrowly defeated in the east through a narrow two military victories by the Caliphate army near Kairouan. The reconquest of the western zone of the Islamic empire by the Umayyads did not take place because, in 750, the Abbasids came to power in the East. The Abbasid caliphs tried unsuccessfully to reconquer North Africa but failed to regain Kairouan and Ifriqiya, leaving everywhere else to small Kharijite kingdoms. This situation lasted until 801 when Harun al-Rashid recognized the de facto independence of the region.
By cutting itself off from allegiance with Baghdad in the ninth century, Morocco, after more than two centuries of dependence of Damascus under the Umayyads and in Baghdad under the Abbasids, ended the influence Eastern policy. From that moment, the caliphate was replaced in Morocco by the Sultanate, thus founding Morocco's autonomy as a nation.
The Almoravids ( of course alTak can't use that he has to use al~Murabitun) don't come in until 1042
When the Almoravids began to emerge as the true power of the desert, the Idrissides long gone except in the region of Tangier where some asserted their authority which extended over a small area under the effective control of Andalusians. Morocco was politically divided into large tribes or Berber confederations, true to the changing contours and principalities which were more or less independent. The most powerful principalities were the Zenetes.
The history of the Almoravids is related to the Islamization of the Sanhaja, a coalition of major Berber tribes of Western Sahara (the Lemtouna, and the Messouffa Goddala-or-Guezzala) who controlled the trade routes between North Africa and Sub-Saharan regions.
The Almoravids in trying first to "recover" Islam succeeded in unifying the Muslim community as well as being conquerors and they quickly gained a justified reputation for invincibility. Indeed, it took fourteen years for the Morabitoun (from 1042 to 1056) to conquer the Western Sahara and southern Morocco. The first account is of of the Almoravids in southern Morocco in 1053,supporting the Sanhaja of Sijilmassa in their conflict with the Zénètes of Maghraoua.
Posts: 43022 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty. Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.
Description of the 12th century Sufi Saint and Shaykh of the Jazula/Gazula Berbers of the Middle Atlas from the clan of Haskura -
“One of the companions of Abu Yaaza got married. His wife asked him for a female slave, but he did not have one. So Abu Yaaza said to him, ‘I will substitute myself for the female slave,’ for he was black and had no hair on his face.” Realm of the Saint: Power and Authority in Moroccan Sufism, p. 69 vincent cornell 1998.
I just said Morocco was originally founded by the black Almoravids. Did you not read it?!
Just as the Almoravid name only came after the people called Guezula or Lamtuna (Aulamidden) came to be known as the Almoravid.
One has to come before the other now doesn't it.
Arab Conquest of Morocco
The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.
Meccan Arab Uqba bin Nafi governor of Ifriqiya on behalf of the Umayyad Caliphate armies of the third and fifth campaigns and founder of the city of Kairouan in Tunisia in 669, was head of the offensive on Morocco. He crossed North Africa and seriously shook the power of Byzantium whose presence in Africa was destroyed in 693.
It took Uqba over twenty years and three campaingns to finally annex Morocco to the Islamic Empire because of the violent opposition of the Berber tribes in North Africa.
Indeed, it was only during the eighth campaign (698-715), led by Moussa bin Nouçaïr that Morocco and Spain were finally conquered. In Morocco, two expeditions were enough for Islam to be introduced and accepted and that this country is incorporated into the Umayyad Empire in 708. Certainly, there was local resistance but at no time there was a general uprising of such as in Algeria or Tunisia where large Berber uprisings broke out, the most violent were those headed by Kosayla and Kahina (Berber warriors). Moroccan Berbers converted to Islam en masse and many of the highest responsibilities were entrusted to some of them.
Morocco’s highly individualized world, divided into many tribes were proud of their independence and with Islam there was a new religious cohesion. The new faith was never challenged by the Berbers. However the Arab presence and its abuses (mainly oppressive taxation) was often attacked. The Berber uprising, in 740, against the power of the caliphs of the East and its Arab representatives living in Morocco, caused a rupture between Morocco and the East and in the name of Islam. This Kharijite revolt was directed against the caliph. Indeed, for the Kharijites, the caliphate was a return to the best of the Muslims faith and origins.
This doctrine, from the East, was the subject of fervent adherence by the Berbers in Morocco. It advocated equality in social and political democracy and its followers were hunted down by the Umayyad caliphate. For them this heresy threatened the very essence of its power and was unacceptable.
Born in Morocco, the revolt spread to the whole of North Africa and was narrowly defeated in the east through a narrow two military victories by the Caliphate army near Kairouan. The reconquest of the western zone of the Islamic empire by the Umayyads did not take place because, in 750, the Abbasids came to power in the East. The Abbasid caliphs tried unsuccessfully to reconquer North Africa but failed to regain Kairouan and Ifriqiya, leaving everywhere else to small Kharijite kingdoms. This situation lasted until 801 when Harun al-Rashid recognized the de facto independence of the region.
By cutting itself off from allegiance with Baghdad in the ninth century, Morocco, after more than two centuries of dependence of Damascus under the Umayyads and in Baghdad under the Abbasids, ended the influence Eastern policy. From that moment, the caliphate was replaced in Morocco by the Sultanate, thus founding Morocco's autonomy as a nation.
The Almoravids ( of course alTak can't use that he has to use al~Murabitun) don't come in until 1042
When the Almoravids began to emerge as the true power of the desert, the Idrissides long gone except in the region of Tangier where some asserted their authority which extended over a small area under the effective control of Andalusians. Morocco was politically divided into large tribes or Berber confederations, true to the changing contours and principalities which were more or less independent. The most powerful principalities were the Zenetes.
The history of the Almoravids is related to the Islamization of the Sanhaja, a coalition of major Berber tribes of Western Sahara (the Lemtouna, and the Messouffa Goddala-or-Guezzala) who controlled the trade routes between North Africa and Sub-Saharan regions.
The Almoravids in trying first to "recover" Islam succeeded in unifying the Muslim community as well as being conquerors and they quickly gained a justified reputation for invincibility. Indeed, it took fourteen years for the Morabitoun (from 1042 to 1056) to conquer the Western Sahara and southern Morocco. The first account is of of the Almoravids in southern Morocco in 1053,supporting the Sanhaja of Sijilmassa in their conflict with the Zénètes of Maghraoua.
This black history lesson 102 (except for the Abbasid part)brought to you by LYIN _SS Productions!?
Black Words to know -
Umayyads (the original ones) Messoufa Goddala/Guezala/Guetzala Almoravid/Murabitoun Maghraoua Zenetes/Zanata Kahina Kosayla Ibn Yasin Uqba ibn Nafi Kharijites "Berber warriors" Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [/QUOTE]Arab Conquest of Morocco
The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.
Meccan Arab Uqba bin Nafi governor of Ifriqiya on behalf of the Umayyad Caliphate armies of the third and fifth campaigns and founder of the city of Kairouan in Tunisia in 669, was head of the offensive on Morocco. He crossed North Africa and seriously shook the power of Byzantium whose presence in Africa was destroyed in 693.
It took Uqba over twenty years and three campaingns to finally annex Morocco to the Islamic Empire because of the violent opposition of the Berber tribes in North Africa.
Indeed, it was only during the eighth campaign (698-715), led by Moussa bin Nouçaïr that Morocco and Spain were finally conquered. In Morocco, two expeditions were enough for Islam to be introduced and accepted and that this country is incorporated into the Umayyad Empire in 708.
[/QUOTE]“ While the caliphs of the Umayyad dynasty had prided themselves on the purity of their Arab lineage through marriage with noble Arab women, by the second century of Islamic history many of the caliphs of the Abbasid dynasty were the sons of slave concubines.” The Imperial Harem, Leslie Pearce, 1993 p. 38.
Uqba ibn Nafi was from the clan of Quraysh belonging to the Kinaniyyah an early and contemporary clan of modern Hijaz and Jericho in Israel/Palestine - case closed!
“It is said that the Quraish explained their short stature and dark skin by the fact that they always carefully adhered to endogamy.” Robert F. Spencer, The Arabian Matriarchate: An Old Controversy, Southwestern Journal of Anthropology. 8 (Winter 1952) 488.
I'm sorry but you keep bringing up the Umayyades so you might as well talk about how they are originally described "...les Haśhimites, famille où dominait le sang nègre” (“the Hashimites, the family where Black blood dominated" - as with all early Arabians) from Henry Lammens, Études sur le siècle des Omayyades (Beirut: Imprimerie Calholique, 1930) 44
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Don't think so. I'm not really into Muhammad, LYIN _SS. Didn't mean to give that impression. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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