quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Don't think so. I'm not really into Muhammad, LYIN _SS. Didn't mean to give that impression.
he don't have to, they are also making some general remarks about Arabs there
Maybe that thread is a hot potato for you, but let me ask you, are you of the opinion Muhammad was Black ?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
"The expedition against Algiers was followed, in 1637, by another, under the command of Captain Rainsborough, against Sallee, in Morocco. At his approach, the Moors sold a_thousand of their captives, British subjects, to Tunis and Algiers." From the e-book, White Slavery in the Barbary States, lecture by Charles Sumner, 1847.
I had read many of these captives eventually escaped and returned to their countries. I believe their were far more men captured. The kidnapped European captives of the Barbary Moor/Turk pirates were also often transported to other parts of the Ottoman Empire. Given that some captives were poor and without familes to pay their ransoms and some women raped or winding up in Turkish harems guarded by castrated black men (horrible) to what extent do you think these barbary captives changed the population of North Africa? Berbers for instance I have read that occasionally they acquired some European slaves but on the whole they avoided Ottomans and retreated to the mountains
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.
The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.
and how are you going to link Haratin currently living in Morocco with those ancient people of the green Sahara and distinguish them from a Moroccan who might have roots in Ghana from several hundred years ago?
My answer was already given in the quote of mine you cited! Oral traditions among some Haratin as well as DNA analysis. Even before DNA findings, blood grouping studies showed many Haratin to have type B and other factors "peculiar" in contrast to 'Sub-Saharans' yet akin to that of other Berbers and even Egyptians! So yeah, they are descended from ancient green Saharans.
quote:And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja
I believe Dana and Takruri have corrected your claims already. It's amazing how you and other laymen are quick to become armchair 'experts' using google without the proper time and research on the subject. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by HERU: Wait...what are your sources?
Porch, D (1983) The Conquest of Morocco - The Bizarre History of France's Last Great Colonial Adventure, the Long Struggle to Subdue a Medieval Kingdom By Intrigue and Force of Arms 1903–1914, Knopf Porch, D, 2nd Ed (2005) The Conquest of the Sahara, Ferrar, Straus & Giroux Rogerson, B & Lavington, S Edited by (2004) Marrakech, The Red City: The City through Writers' Eyes, Sickle Moon Books Bernasek, L & Burger, H. S. (2008) Imazighen!: Beauty and Artisanship in Berber Life, Peabody Museum Press Courtney-Clarke, M & Brooks, G. (1996) Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women, Thames & Hudson Ltd, London, UK El-Ghissassi, H. (2006) Regard sur Le Laroc de Mohamed VI, Michel Lafon Ennaji, M (2005) Multilingualism, Cultural Identity and Education in Morocco, Springer, New York, USA Harris, W. (2003) Morocco that Was, Eland Books, London, UK Hart, D.M. (2000) Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco, Frank Cass Publishers Howe, M (2005) Morocco: The Islamist Awakening and Other Challenges, University of Oxford Press, New York, USA Hoffman, K.E. (2008) We Share Walls: Language, Land, and Gender in Berber Morocco, Wiley-Blackwell Maxwell, G (2000) Lords of the Atlas, Weidenfeld Nicholson Illustrated Maxwell, G (2002) Lords of the Atlas: The Rise and Fall of the House of Glaoua 1893–1956, The Lyons Press McKissack, F. & McKissack, P. (1995) The Royal Kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay: Life in Medieval Africa, Henry Holt and Co. LLC Pennell, C.R. (2003) Morocco: From Empire to Independence, OneWorld Publications Pennel, C.R. (2001) Morocco since 1830: A History, NYU Press, USA
That the Gnawa originate in the Sahel/West Africa is the mainstream point of view. Your author is claiming an alternative point of view
The author reflects mainstream opinion (and is still frequently cited): Haratin are indigenous to Morocco.
"Although the origin of the Haratin is shrouded in mystery, it is generally believed that they were indigenous to the north Saharan oases." - John Ralph Willis, Slaves and Slavery in Africa: Volume Two, 1986
"The most likely scenario is the simplest. The Ethiopian tribes were absorbed by the Berber tribes, or they became oasis dwellers known today as the Haratin, or both." - R. Smith, What happened to the ancient Libyans? Chasing sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun, 2003
"the notion that the Haratin were indigenous to the Dra Valley since time immemorial, with evidence from oral traditions of the Tata region, and the history of invading Berber tribes [...] all support the conclusion that the Haratin are an indigenous group." - A. Martinez, Intertribal Conflicts and Customary Law Regimes in North Africa, 2004
"The Haratin were indigenous people of Morocco..." - Alexander Mikaberidze, Conflict and Conquest in the Islamic World, 2011
Posts: 318 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^ The idea (now in a new thread of AlTakruri's) is that the Almoravid aka Al Murabitin did not invade Ghana > is an alternative theory. Most scholars do not believe that The above article I posted if form Molefi Asante's History of Africa.
Your link, like your other link is to only page 1 intoduction of an article on JUSTOR
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^ Translation: 'your link is actual scholarship I was completely unaware of; now allow me to continue parroting myths and half-truths as fact.'
Recap: you make a series of disputed claims (like that about the Haratin) and dismiss anything to the contrary as "alternative." You claim to know what "most scholars" believe but seemingly weren't aware of one of the more important expositions of African historiography of the past 20 years.
Posts: 318 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
To those who still don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what a Tunisian look like. There is a thing called science and based upon CONTEMPORARY(2009/2013) scientific research here are the facts. At the risk of wrath from my Afrocentric brethren.
1. Indigenous North Africans are NOT genetically related to people from the Levant. Regardless of populist belief and eyeballing anthropology. This is based upon CODIS STR, SNPs and Haplogroup lineage. Again I am not sure who they sampled for these studies and what these people looked like. I am going by the data ONLY. Posting pics doesn’t help. I a red-headed Irishman and I will post my pic soon. 2. Their closest genetic relationship is South Saharans. Up to 40% SSA in south Tunisian groups. This is based upon SNP/STR/Haplogroups. Each corroborates the other. 3. South Arabians are an admixture of all Africans types and people from the Levant and further North. That is why South Arabians are related to BOTH Turks and Africans nut Saharans are NOT related to Turks./West Asians 4. Tunisians are supposed to be light complexioned due to the ecological niche they occupy. They should be about the same complexion as the Turks and Syrians although they are NOT Turks and Syrians. 5. The Levant was predominantly African and the population was replaced by Turks/Syrians. The many studies I cited confirm this. There are still remnants of the African presence in the Levant as attested to by Bedouins tribesmen in the Negev desert of Israel. And recent study confirming majority African lineage in indigenous people of the Dead Sea area in Jordan. High frequency of Cameroonian R-V88 and E1b1 in these tribes. 6. There is growing evidence that European woman are migrant Berbers(H1, H3) that migrated to Iberia/Tunisia to the southern shores of Europe >12,000ya.. Which means modern Europeans(especially those to the south) are an admixture of Saharans/Asians and Peoples from the Levant. Again this is confirmed genetically.
As I said. What are written in history books is my LAST source of information. Authors lie or mis-translate!!!! Sometimes deliberately. Science do NOT. But it can be manipulated.
Based upon recent research I am starting to doubt several things written in history books. Eg that Al H /Abu painting showed Yemeni’s were black like SSA purchasing Turks. The Arabic translation confirms that. That is why we should dig deeper and not eyeball. . Peter Underhill et al very much doubt the magnitude and impact on the SSA slaves to Yemeni gene pool.. Also, L Pereira and Cherni study cast doubt on the historical documented size of the Moors expulsion from Spain.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
In most of Morocco, the word has a somewhat different meaning. "Haratin" tends to be applied to the dark-skinned agriculturalists of the southern oases. In some Moroccan oral history traditions, the Haratin of the south eastern oases near the Algerian frontier were the former slaves; in addition, the term is applied to a somewhat distinct cultural and religious movement composed of sufi ṭuruq ("orders/brotherhoods") and music groups that has begun to include different ethnicities. As Moroccan society has modernised and urbanised, the categories have broken down with intermarriage and rural to urban migration.
Haratin (Hartani or Aherdan (which means black in Tashelhit), speak Tashelhit or Central Atlas Tamazight, they traditionally worked in agriculture in the desert oases. They should not be confused with other black-skinned Moroccans living in other areas (such the Gnawas for example). With the country's modernization they increasingly became active in other jobs and many of them immigrated to modern metropolitan areas of Morocco.
_________________________________________________
also keep in mind a slave may or may not be indigenous
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
LOL Whether Prehistoric or historic. The issue is indigenous ancestry and nobody in the right mind would suggest light-skinned 'mulatto' types, and especially pale, fair-haired, blue-eyed types as indigenous or aboriginal to North Africa. End of story. It is typical lyinass attempt to white-wash or rather 'mix up' original North Africans the same way she does with Egypt.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] LOL Whether Prehistoric or historic. The issue is indigenous ancestry
"Historic" means going back a few thousand years, basically being contemporary with written record. If that is indigenous
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
What I'm saying is who was in the region first regardless of written records and then what do written records indicate. Sorry but both evidences say the peoples were BLACK which troubles you greatly.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Don't think so. I'm not really into Muhammad, LYIN _SS. Didn't mean to give that impression.
he don't have to, they are also making some general remarks about Arabs there
Maybe that thread is a hot potato for you, but let me ask you, are you of the opinion Muhammad was Black ?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
"The expedition against Algiers was followed, in 1637, by another, under the command of Captain Rainsborough, against Sallee, in Morocco. At his approach, the Moors sold a_thousand of their captives, British subjects, to Tunis and Algiers." From the e-book, White Slavery in the Barbary States, lecture by Charles Sumner, 1847.
I had read many of these captives eventually escaped and returned to their countries. I believe their were far more men captured. The kidnapped European captives of the Barbary Moor/Turk pirates were also often transported to other parts of the Ottoman Empire. Given that some captives were poor and without familes to pay their ransoms and some women raped or winding up in Turkish harems guarded by castrated black men (horrible) to what extent do you think these barbary captives changed the population of North Africa? Berbers for instance I have read that occasionally they acquired some European slaves but on the whole they avoided Ottomans and retreated to the mountains
First off -you are not saying you have documented evidence that the majority of the more than a million and a half Europeans in North Africa all returned to their country of origin are you? If so I'd like you to post it.
I don't care much for opinions either, LYIN _SS, when it comes to history? A better question is what were the documented statements made about his immediate family and clans.
You read English and you have already READ what the documented statements were about Muhammed (PBUH) and his family here on egyptsearch. How many times are you going to ask the same leading "NEGROPHOBIC" questions .
So since this "PROPHET" and his close kinsmen and his clan and his tribe in his region were ALL mentioned as blacks (akhdar)and near black (samar) by olive-toned NON-ARAB peoples and since the people of Arabia in the north were considered by 14th century Ibn Khaldun part of al-Sudan, since the Syrian Dhahabi, the Arab linguist Ibn Mandour and Jahiz considered that fair-skinned (ahmar) Arabs as found in many parts of MODERN Arabia were the result of PURE Arabs mixing with or being from fair-skinned SLAVES, and since the word "abyad" - we are told - didn't mean "white" in the modern western sense, but was used for both HABESHI along with Arab people of clear or shining black or near black complexion, just as it is now still in use by dark brown NEAR BLACK bedouin of ARABIA FOR THEMSELVES...
Since the individuals of the Banu Hashem were documented TAR BLACK, as many of the Quraysh STILL ARE , and the tribe from which the Quraish were derived - KINANA bin Khuzaima bin Mudrika - is the root of the tradition that the ancient "Canaanites" were blacks, and since the population occupying the larger region between Mecca, Medina and Jiddah as late as the 15th century were near black, tar black or of "very dark purple color" AS MANY STILL ARE or near blacks per the Chinese manuscripts - and since the Hudhail/Hothail bin Mudrika from the brother of Khuzaimah (Kedemah - Genesis 25: 15 ) bin Mudrikah are still possessed of "shining black" skins - per Charles Dougherty - in Travels in Arabia Deserta... since black Africans are still denoted "Arabs" in Turkish, Yiddish and Greek , since the Northern Arabs "Nabati" were descendants of Qidar who was father of Nabit both of whom are described as BLACK in medieval Syrian and CENTRAL ASIAN texts - AS MANY STILL ARE... Since every ARABIAN tribe at one time like every major BERBER tribe has been described by an early writer or eyewitness AS BLACK I hope you don't mind that I assume that the PROPHET of the MUSLIMS looked like the rest of HIS FAMILY AND PEOPLE, - and not like A SLAVE.
BTW - as to your second silly statement, Lyin _SS - what have men throughout history done with women slaves? I think you should know better than myself.
THAT WAS YOUR CLASS IN "GETTING OVER NEGROPHOBIA 101" rebvised for your consumption
Enjoyable wasn't it - NEXT TIME, I WISH TO BE PAID! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] LOL Whether Prehistoric or historic. The issue is indigenous ancestry
"Historic" means going back a few thousand years, basically being contemporary with written record. If that is indigenous
You have to start qualifying your statements LYIN _SS - a prehistoric Morocco never existed. If you are talking about who lived on both sides of the Mediterranean in prehistoric times in the area of the modern nation of Morocco that is one thing. And it is obvious from the rock art in this country, as well as the physical anthropological evidence, who was once predominant there. However, I am not going to start picture spamming AGAIN to prove once again the OBVIOUS. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: What I'm saying is who was in the region first regardless of written records and then ...which troubles you greatly.
LYIN _SS's frustation and DESPERATION is quite entertaining.lol! Keeps me coming back for more. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ LMAO Typical sign that the lyinass is stumped-- post a meaningless picture spam with related idiotic question.
Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Pictures of modern off-white Maghrebis. I fail to see the point, especially when the point was dismissed in how many other threads. Dana, do you recall the thread about the Moroccan royal family and how different they look from their ancestors? I'm unable to find the thread, probably because it was deleted. But I'm sure the lyinass was busted up big time in there. LOL
Having primarily African ancestry is not the same as having solely African ancestry. Posts: 26252 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
Are they both Basques, or both African Americans, LYIN _SS. I'm confused on what your point is. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?
I should think not.
Where is that yawning graemlin when you need it?
"Feel FREE To Contact LYIN' _SS Productions for your course in Frustration/Desperation 101. Your psychosis awaits you! " Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Pictures of modern off-white Maghrebis. I fail to see the point, especially when the point was dismissed in how many other threads. Dana, do you recall the thread about the Moroccan royal family and how different they look from their ancestors? I'm unable to find the thread, probably because it was deleted. But I'm sure the lyinass was busted up big time in there. LOL
Having primarily African ancestry is not the same as having solely African ancestry. [/qb]
Hey - I will look for it. However, now that you mentioned it I had planned to post a new blog post about European slaves in North Africa. if such info is being deleted then that is another reason to post some of the same info about the slavery of the black Idrissids and Alawites and their slaves for some of our favorite Negrophobic friends on there.
It will include a special treat in particular for our anti-reparations Negrophobes - such as descriptions of the Moors Mulai Ismail, Mulay Muhamed etc. the barbarous sons of the "Negro" slave women and their "Negro" troops who were said to have "harassed" their not so dark-skinned captives and enslaved them, etc.
Example: With regard to Mulay Ismail, Alawi Emperor of Morocco and his followers, the documents of eyewitnesses are clear (according to modern scholarship) : "Brooks reported that the English 'Christians were grievously hurried and punished by those Hellish Negroes' who "regularly demanded that they 'turn Moors' or Muslims." American Christians and Islam p. 4 Thomas Kidd , 2009
posted
dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?
First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.
I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region of early Mozabites came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?
"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?
First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.
I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?
"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"
I would put Phoenicians at the top of the list. also some Greeks, thanks dane
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?
First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.
I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?
"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"
I would put Phoenicians at the top of the list. also some Greeks, thanks dane
“ we are disposed to take account also of the Germanic or Vandal element introduced at a later period, traces of which though not recognized by most authors, remain to the present time since we not unfrequently meet Kabyles with blond or reddish hair, and eyes blue or of a grayish green tinge.” Carthage and Tunis Past and present by Amos Perry, p. 272 1869.
"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"
Fashionable Kabyle woman models traditional Lombard attire
I like the Phoenician purple the Tuareg still wear better - don't you.
Yeah - Canaanites did settle on the East and North African coast supposedly. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?
I should think not.
the guy's Tunisian
White Tunisian - Basque - Scythian - with some Turkish thrown in - same difference, - no?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.
After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.
For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC. Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?
Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.
But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.
So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.
What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC? Not much is known about it
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.
After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.
For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC. Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?
Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.
But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.
So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.
What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC? Not much is known about it
No - actually the Phoenicians i.e. Amalekites settled in Lebanon and other parts of Syria, the the Mediterranean and Aegean and came from the lowland of the Canaanites (still called Wadi Kanawnah) "maybe 2000 BC" located next to the Eritraean Sea across from Sudan near where was also the town of Fanikha, and not far away the lands of Eden (Aden) in Thelassar (Adul Azar)with its 4 rivers and the region of their ancestors the Philistines and Arabian Kush.
Herodotus (Vii – 89) "These Phoenicians dwelt in old time, as they say, by the Red Sea , Passing over from thence, they now inhabit the sea coast of Syria."
John D. Baldwin had it right - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples 1874
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon ...
Says who? Phoenician7?
Lebanese historian Albert Hourani once said, "Kamal Salibi is the foremost living historian of Lebanon". Salibi, a Christian and author of, A House of Many Mansions - The History of Lebanon Reconsidered, using an old gazeteer of Arabia provided hard to refute evidence of where hundreds of the earliest names of the towns and villages of Phoenicia, Mizraim, the Israelites and Philistines - were located and where they remain in his book, The Bible Came from Arabia.
Salibi was a die-hard practical realist. According to a news spokesman he once uttered - "'After life is nothing,'... It is the end. We are dust.'"
Although I can't agree with his assessment on life and death, until someone can explain why 85 percent of the place and town names found in the Hebrew Bible and Amarna records are found no place else IN THE WORLD in their logistically correspondent, geographically proper places but in southern Arabia and Hijaz, I will have to go with his conclusions on these historical topics.
When regarded in the light of a Syrian locale of Canaan and other Biblical places the historicity of the Bible becomes rather incoherent, inexplicable and unpersuasive. however the Arabian geographical situation fits rather nicely.
Sorry that I am not a nationalist in outlook, and I thank you for your consideration of this matter. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't rely on picture spam to form my opinion... How a person looks MAY tell the ancestry of an individual but testing what is under the skin(DNA) gives us a more accurate picture and closer to the truth.
History books can be helpful but they can be falsified as is becoming more apparently lately.
Almost every recent genetic research study performed on North Africans confirms they are NOT admixed with Europeans neither with people of the Levant. Eyeballing is not science.
Now what or who Lioness spam as Tunisians may not be the same people these researchers sampled. I have no idea if these people are black, white or green. Never seen them in my life. Never traveled to the region. But based strictly on their published genetic makeup they are 100% African. Part of which are South Saharans.
I just came across another classic today proving once again indigenous North Africans may be as high as 51% South Saharans
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here is a sample. I will post and critique on ESR
===========
Population Relationships in the Mediterranean Revealed by Autosomal Genetic Data (Alu and Alu/STR Compound System
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 141:430–439 (2010)
Emili Gonza´ lez-Pe´ rez,1 Esther Esteban
Gene flow analysis confirms the permeability of the Sahara to human passage along with the existence of trans-Mediterranean interchanges
Levels of genetic admixture have been estimated by means of the maximum likelihood method implemented in the LEADMIX program (Wang, 2003).
Gene flow in Mediterraneans (North and South shores) was analyzed with LEADMIX simulations checking for different parental groups. The only consistent results had been summarized in Table 3 (admixture based on STRs are almost identical than those obtained from Alu/ STR haplotypes and, hence, they are not included in Table 3). In the case of Southern Mediterraneans, the overall sub-Saharan contribution ranges from 13% for the Alu markers to 46 and 40% for the STRs and Alu/STR data, respectively.
Admixture values based on Alu/STR combinations indicate that sub-Saharan flow in North Africa ranged from 16% (North East Moroccan Berbers) to 35% (remaining samples) with the exception of Siwa Berbers who showed the highest admixture value (51%). =========
As I said Berbers are "Negroes" under the skin regardless to what they look like even what they believe. They are NOT Europeans or Levantines. Science have proven that.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
Concerning Northern Mediterraneans, the gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa was inappreciable for Alu markers and swung from 6 to 15% for the Alu/STR haplotypes data calculations.
When gene flow in Northern Mediterraneans was tested, taking Central Europe and Southern Mediterraneans as parental populations, the results were statistically inconsistent, indicating the limited power of our markers to discriminate gene flow within Caucasoid populations, (Europeans are NOT the parental population of Berbers).
In summary, the population information from autosomal data concurs with studies based on uniparental markers (see for example, Plaza et al., 2003; Achilli et al., 2004; Olivieri et al., 2006; Cruciani et al., 2007).
The fact that these traces(Sub-Saharan) have been detected in the entirety of the northern shore as well, from Spain (10%) to Turkey (9.4%), reinforces the hypothesis that gene flow in this region is probably linked to the first ancient trans-Mediterranean navigations and that has been maintained and homogenized
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
BTW: This also applies to South Arabia. ie Saharans and South Saharans migrating as Africans civilizing Europe and Near Asia.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
The fact that these traces(Sub-Saharan) have been detected in the entirety of the northern shore as well, from Spain (10%) to Turkey (9.4%), reinforces the hypothesis that gene flow in this region is probably linked to the first ancient trans-Mediterranean navigations and that has been maintained and homogenized
===== in pictures:
===
EUROPEANS STEALING AFRICAN LAND AND HISTORY!!!
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Caucasoid is the word used to steal African history. Any study or person that uses that word has one objective. Steal African history and interject themselves in it. Call them what they are ...Europeans....or maybe Asians...since southern Europe belongs to Africa.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.
After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.
For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC. Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?
Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.
But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.
So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.
What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC? Not much is known about it
No - actually the Phoenicians i.e. Amalekites settled in Lebanon and other parts of Syria, the the Mediterranean and Aegean and came from the lowland of the Canaanites (still called Wadi Kanawnah) "maybe 2000 BC" located next to the Eritraean Sea across from Sudan near where was also the town of Fanikha, and not far away the lands of Eden (Aden) in Thelassar (Adul Azar)with its 4 rivers and the region of their ancestors the Philistines and Arabian Kush.
Herodotus (Vii – 89) "These Phoenicians dwelt in old time, as they say, by the Red Sea , Passing over from thence, they now inhabit the sea coast of Syria."
John D. Baldwin had it right - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples 1874
What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks? There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time. Settlements, what are they? let's get busy
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.
After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.
For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC. Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?
Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.
But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.
So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.
What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC? Not much is known about it
No - actually the Phoenicians i.e. Amalekites settled in Lebanon and other parts of Syria, the the Mediterranean and Aegean and came from the lowland of the Canaanites (still called Wadi Kanawnah) "maybe 2000 BC" located next to the Eritraean Sea across from Sudan near where was also the town of Fanikha, and not far away the lands of Eden (Aden) in Thelassar (Adul Azar)with its 4 rivers and the region of their ancestors the Philistines and Arabian Kush.
Herodotus (Vii – 89) "These Phoenicians dwelt in old time, as they say, by the Red Sea , Passing over from thence, they now inhabit the sea coast of Syria."
John D. Baldwin had it right - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples 1874
What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks? There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time. Settlements, what are they? let's get busy
Glad we finally agree something. Always a third time. Can't be any settlements where there aren't any people, can there. But I think you meant to say in the northern Maghreb. Most of what was going on was occurring in what is now the Sahara and closer to Nubia and the Nile, as archaeology has recently shown among the ancestors of the modern Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Erythraian -speakers i .e. representatives of the ORIGINAL Afro-Asiatics.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon ...
Says who? Phoenician7?
Lebanese historian Albert Hourani once said, "Kamal Salibi is the foremost living historian of Lebanon". Salibi, a Christian and author of, A House of Many Mansions - The History of Lebanon Reconsidered, using an old gazeteer of Arabia provided hard to refute evidence of where hundreds of the earliest names of the towns and villages of Phoenicia, Mizraim, the Israelites and Philistines - were located and where they remain in his book, The Bible Came from Arabia.
Salibi was a die-hard practical realist. According to a news spokesman he once uttered - "'After life is nothing,'... It is the end. We are dust.'"
Although I can't agree with his assessment on life and death, until someone can explain why 85 percent of the place and town names found in the Hebrew Bible and Amarna records are found no place else IN THE WORLD in their logistically correspondent, geographically proper places but in southern Arabia and Hijaz, I will have to go with his conclusions on these historical topics.
When regarded in the light of a Syrian locale of Canaan and other Biblical places the historicity of the Bible becomes rather incoherent, inexplicable and unpersuasive. however the Arabian geographical situation fits rather nicely.
Sorry that I am not a nationalist in outlook, and I thank you for your consideration of this matter.
Kamal Salibi is a historical revsionist to put it mildly. with an alternative theory. It is not what most scholars of the Middle East believe, not by a long shot
Kamal Salibi claims, his book “The Bible Came From Arabia”, that Asir near Yemen was the original Israel and the original Judah. And the Jordan was not a river, but the escarpment between the highlands of Asir and the coastal plain below.” “Research and analysis of the Old Testament place names, corroborated by contemporary Pharaonic and Mesopotamian sources, Kamal Salibi locates the ancient land of Israel, not in Palestine, but in the Najran province of what is now Saudi Arabia.
__________________________________
The thesis of this book is that Bible place names have been "consistently mistranslated" and that all OT events actually happened not in Palestine, but on the western shores of Arabia, and to accomplish this thesis, Salibi moves the pieces around as needed.
The impetus for the thesis was quite mundane. Salibi was looking at an atlas of Arabia, and had an epiphany: He recognized many place names from the Bible that were supposed to be in Palestine. On the other hand, he thinks there is not enough evidence to connect these place names to Palestine. Ergo, the OT events took place in Arabia.
Now even on the surface Salibi seems to have concluded prematurely. For one thing, no evidence at all is provided that any of these Arabian locales existed as long as 2400-3500 years ago by their names. Salibi argues that perhaps archaeology will one day verify his conclusions, and we will presumably find vast evidence beneath Arabian soil of the "real" Jewish locale. But isn't that putting the conclusion before the evidence? Consider how many place names we have in the USA with duplicate names: Miami. Albany. Columbus. How many places do you know named "Shady Oak"? It does not occur to Salibi as it should that many Biblical names are just the sort of thing we would expect people to come up with elsewhere in the same cultural milieu at any given time.
This, in spite of the fact that he admits that some names are repeated several times even within Arabia (there are, he tells us, five Hebrons in this area and, he admits that there was a later Jewish population in this area (And would we not expect them to use some of the old homeland names?) Salibi even admits that later "nostalgic immigrants" to Palestine might have renamed sites after the old homeland, so why not the other way around?
Salibi claims that Acts was written by the Jerusalem group to make Paul look like one of them, and that it contradicts Paul's letters (see here), and declares that there were two Jesuses: the one in the first century in Palestine, and one in the fifth century BC who was in Arabia. Paul went to Arabia and discovered that the two were being mixed together by the Jerusalem apostles, but kept quiet about it, and here we are. And Judas was from Arabia too, and that is where he killed himself.
Especially of interest is the way in which Salibi explains some major problems for his thesis. What about that Jews clearly lived in Palestine during the Roman era? His answer: After the Exile, everyone returned to Arabia, but didn't like it anymore, so they moved to Palestine and forgot all about their old homeland, with some help from the Hasmonean kings, who were intent on establishing their claim to Palestine.
This tactic is continued in his later book Who Was Jesus?, which overall merely repeats the same arguments using the Qu'ran as a preferred and reliable source about Jesus,
Kamal Salibi:
"I acquainted myself with the available scholarly literature on the New Testament, which is extremely interesting, but I shall bother you with it as little as possible."
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: In Words... ====
The fact that these traces(Sub-Saharan) have been detected in the entirety of the northern shore as well, from Spain (10%) to Turkey (9.4%), reinforces the hypothesis that gene flow in this region is probably linked to the first ancient trans-Mediterranean navigations and that has been maintained and homogenized
===== in pictures:
===
EUROPEANS STEALING AFRICAN LAND AND HISTORY!!!
If there are lies being told what is your basic true statement? You are giving us all this a-ha but what are you claiming precisely?
In regard to this cirlced area can you give us a concise statement or couple of about the truth of history in that area?
I assume you are talking about "history" rather than prehistory, hostory being basically the period of the first witten record/civilization in the Maghreb
You are showing the Nuragic civilization was a civilization of Sardinia, not even on the continent of Africa
In the Stone Age the island was inhabited by people who had arrived there in the Palaeolithic and Neolithic ages from several parts of Europe and the Mediterranean area. The most ancient settlements have been discovered both in Gallura and central Sardinia; later several cultures developed in the island, such as the Ozieri culture.
The Bonnanaro Culture develops in its more ancient phase (1800 - 1500 B. C.) in the Bronze Age, which is characterized by a ceramic in greater part unadorned and with very particular handles. In this period the megalithic burials evolve into a kind of grave with a lengthened room, preamble to the typical nuraghic burial: the "giants' grave."
The real beginning of the Nuraghic Civilization goes back to the final phase of the Bonnanaro's Culture, which will developing uninterruptedly up to the VI century B.C., enduring in some areas, till the Roman conquest.
In addition to the nuraghic, the "corridors" (or protonuraghis) and "tholos" (simple or complex nature), the nuraghic civilization produced a remarkable architectural development: civil (villages), religious (sacred wells, sacred sources, small temples "in antis") and funereal (giants' graves).
The productions of the "bronze statuettes" dates to the Iron Age, they are "ex-voto" and represent animals, nacelles and other objects of the various nuraghic world. The mines' exploitation was of course the principal resource of this period: close to the figured bronzes, there is a production of weapons, utensils and various objects in bronze, having few equals in the rest of the Mediterranean.The metal of the Island was also the incentive pushing Cretan, Mycenean, Cypriot merchants and, subsequently, Phoenician to attend Sardinia, establishing at the beginning seasonal and later stable ports. Through the Phoenician commercial ports had origin cities as Karalis, Sulci, Nora and Bithia from which (under the control of Carthage) will start the punic conquest of the island, in the VI century B.C.. In the 238 B.C., after the I punic war, Sardinia will pass under the Roman dominion, but the conquest of the island, after various native revolts, can be considered only concluded in the I century B. C.. Sardinia became Roman province in the Imperial Epoch and saw a notable development of urban centers and road system. The Bonnanaro culture is a protohistoric culture that flourished in Sardinia during the 2nd millennium BC (1800-1600 BC), considered as the first stadium of the Nuragic civilization. The
Bonnanaro culture had been described by scholars as the Sardinian regionalization of the pan-European Bell Beaker culture with some influences from the Polada culture of northern Italy. The Bonnanaro culture is the last evolution of the Beaker culture in Sardinia (c. 1800 BC), and shows several similarities with the Bronze-Age Polada culture of northern Italy.
The Bell-Beaker culture (sometimes shortened to Beaker culture, Beaker people, or Beaker folk; German: Glockenbecherkultur), ca. 2800 – 1800 BC, is the term for a widely scattered cultural phenomenon of prehistoric western Europe starting in the late Neolithic or Chalcolithic running into the early Bronze Age. The term was coined by John Abercromby, based on their distinctive pottery drinking vessels.
The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe. a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia.
posted
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.
Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. ) Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.
Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. ) Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!
They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece
dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man. come on daughter
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.
Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. ) Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!
They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece
dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man. come on daughter
And then you woke up RIGHT?!
On second thought, considering the dim-witted nature of this mostly rhetorical response - maybe u did throw it together.lol!
"Then what about people like the Moabites who we have clear evidence for in things like the Moabite stone, found right where we would expect? Again, easily explained (too easily): Actually the Moabites used to live down in Arabia too, but the Israelites defeated them badly, so they moved to Palestine to get away from them and then carved the Moabite Stone. "
But na-a-ah, I'll have to go with my first thought and say once a plagiar _SS ,always a plagiara_ _. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?
First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.
I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?
"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"
I would put Phoenicians at the top of the list. also some Greeks, thanks dane
Orphanet J Rare Dis. 2012; 7: 52. Published online 2012 August 21. doi: 10.1186/1750-1172-7-52
Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East
Lilia Romdhane et al.
quote: The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think there must be some truth to the traditions recounted over and over again about the Zaghawa or Zawagha/Zagai since the time of Josephus and Procopius to to the time of Portuguese Marmol.
"The Azuagos are one of the peoples who spilled into Berberia and Numidia, most of whom are shepherds; others are weavers of cloth or cowherds. A poor people who live in and around the hills and in caves, mostly tributaries of the local kings or of the Arabs. These peoples - according to African authors - originally came from Phoenicia, and were called Moors or Morophoros; they were thrown out of the the land of Joshua, son of Nau, who lived with the Egyptians, passing to Libya and afterward founding the famous city of Carthage, 1278 years before the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, who was 3929 years after the creation of our world. And according to Ibni Alraquiq, for many years they lived in this city, a great stone city with a fountain, saying: 'We are the people who fled the presence of the thief of Joshua, son of Nau..."
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East
Lilia Romdhane et al.
quote: The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.
[/QB]
yes but that who were they? there seems to be no evidence in the Mahgreb of a settlement after the Capsian which ended 6000 BC and before the Punics. I'm guessing there were small groups of nomads in the region, groups which Herodotus mentions.
Perhaps analgous to the American Indians, indigenous people were soon displaced by much larger migrations of Phoenicians, cities beginning with Uttica far prior to the islamic conquest of the Maghreb
Phoenician cities:
Algeria
Tipaza
Libya
Oia Sabratha Leptis Magna - major city on the Libyan coastline
Morocco
Lixus Mogador Tangier
Tunisia
Utica Carthage Hadrumetum Leptis Parva Thapsus Kerkouane Zama Regia
Ruins of Uttica, Tunisia
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic