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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. [Big Grin] )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!

They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece

dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man.
come on daughter

If you believe that about Wesley the next course I will recommend to you is Reading for Context 101. I'd suggest that as an introductory college course as it will enable you to read the legal docs you will get in your law class introducing the ramifications of PLAGIARISM. [Smile]
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East

Lilia Romdhane et al.


quote:
The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.

yes but that who were they? there seems to be no evidence in the Mahgreb of a settlement after the Capsian which ended 6000 BC and before the Punics. I'm guessing there were small groups of nomads in the region, groups which Herodotus mentions.

Perhaps analgous to the American Indians, indigenous people were soon displaced by much larger migrations of
Phoenicians, cities beginning with Uttica
far prior to the islamic conquest of the Maghreb

Phoenician cities:

Algeria

Tipaza

Libya

Oia
Sabratha
Leptis Magna - major city on the Libyan coastline

Morocco

Lixus
Mogador
Tangier


Tunisia


Utica
Carthage
Hadrumetum
Leptis Parva
Thapsus
Kerkouane
Zama Regia

 -
Ruins of Uttica, Tunisia [/QB]

Modern locals, as before.

 -

 -





PLoS One. 2010; 5(2): e9177.

Skeletal Remains from Punic Carthage Do Not Support Systematic Sacrifice of Infants

Jeffrey H. Schwartz et al.

quote:
Some biblical scholars maintain that the Carthaginians frequently and systematically practiced infant sacrifice perhaps as early as Queen Dido's founding of the Phoenician colony on the northern coast of Africa in the 9th or 8th century BCE until 146 BCE, when the Romans won the third and last Punic War [1]–[5].
Phoenician Blood Endures 3,000 Years, DNA Study Shows

 -

quote:
Ancient maritime traders (shown above in an illustration) may have left behind a large genetic footprint around the Mediterranean, with 1 in 17 men in the region still harboring Phoenician DNA, according to a new study.


The findings could fill a missing gap in the history of the Phoenician civilization, and help geneticists understand the genetic impact of other human migrations, experts said in October 2008.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/10/081030-phoenician-dna-genographic-missions.html


Rediscovering Ancient Phoenicia: The Truth Behind Phoenician Identity in the Mediterranean

Joël J Hage
The Morehead-Cain Foundation
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
May - August 2011


quote:
No more than 20 percent of the Tunisian men sampled were found to be carrying Y-chromosomes that could have originated in ancient Phoenicia. Actually, most men were found to be carrying “the aboriginal North African [gene], M96."
http://www.ulcm.org/in-the-news---culture-literature-and-books/2012/09/29/rediscovering-ancient-phoenicia-the-truth-behind-phoenician-identity-in-the-mediterranean


As posted before.

 -

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. [Big Grin] )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!

They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece

dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man.
come on daughter

If you believe that about Wesley the next course I will recommend to you is Reading for Context 101. I'd suggest that as an introductory college course as it will enable you to read the legal docs you will get in your law class introducing the ramifications of PLAGIARISM. [Smile]
Ph.D. Wesley clearly explained the "Anthropomorphism". So it's clears lyin'ass can't grasp the material.


Even funnier is, the fact that he did not invent the word
anthropomorphism.

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the lioness,
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^^^^^ I grasp it and it's a clearly explained wrong interpretation of Islam to say Allah was a man
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the lioness,
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^^^^^ I grasp it and it's a clearly explained wrong interpretation of Islam to say Allah was a human
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ I grasp it and it's a clearly explained wrong interpretation of Islam to say Allah was a man

So, now you are the expert in classical Arabic? When you barley understand the basics of Theology (science of GOD) LOL
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ I grasp it and it's a clearly explained wrong interpretation of Islam to say Allah was a man

So, now you have become the expert in Islamic history and scholarship.

Before Allah became as we know it now, Allah was a deity amongst many. So, where does that leave you now? LOL

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Djehuti
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How did the conversation shift to Islam?? LOL

Anyway here are some recent photos of Tunisians.

Tunisian women and girl:

 -

A Tunisian woman and grandchildren:

 -

Two politicians. Guess which one is Tunisian!:

 -

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the lioness,
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 -

Norwegians, the music group Queendom

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

Norwegians, the music group Queendom

Yes, they are authentic Norwegians.LOL

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East

Lilia Romdhane et al.


quote:
The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.

yes but that who were they? there seems to be no evidence in the Mahgreb of a settlement after the Capsian which ended 6000 BC and before the Punics. I'm guessing there were small groups of nomads in the region, groups which Herodotus mentions.

Perhaps analgous to the American Indians, indigenous people were soon displaced by much larger migrations of
Phoenicians, cities beginning with Uttica
far prior to the islamic conquest of the Maghreb



Anyway,

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.

Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.

Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Source


Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.


Abstract


quote:
The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.

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the lioness,
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Read this carefully:

__________________________________________________


Since most of the languages spoken in North Africa and in nearby parts of Asia belong to the Afro-Asiatic family (Ruhlen 1991), this expansion could have involved people speaking a proto–Afro-Asiatic language.

These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa.

In conclusion, we propose that the Y-chromosomal genetic structure observed in North Africa is mainly the result of an expansion of early food-producing societies.


A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

Barbara Arredi,1 2004

_________________________________________________

M81 is a mutation that arose after other migration previous to it

E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa. The haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa.

E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), yet 90-100% in certain Tunisian populations.
Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria.

we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. (2001) in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,


^^^ you readin this xyyman?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Read this carefully:

__________________________________________________


Since most of the languages spoken in North Africa and in nearby parts of Asia belong to the Afro-Asiatic family (Ruhlen 1991), this expansion could have involved people speaking a proto–Afro-Asiatic language.

These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa.

In conclusion, we propose that the Y-chromosomal genetic structure observed in North Africa is mainly the result of an expansion of early food-producing societies.


A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

Barbara Arredi,1 2004

_________________________________________________

M81 is a mutation that arose after other migration previous to it

E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa. The haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa.

E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), yet 90-100% in certain Tunisian populations.
Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria.

we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. (2001) in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,


^^^ you readin this xyyman?

Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

Hence:


quote:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

And I already elaborated on Afrasan, with a study done recently, as of 2008. Other recent studies also confirm an East African root for the Afrasan phylum, certainly proto-Afrasan. As posted before.
 -


 -


 -

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Ish Geber
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A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms, 2011.

Beniamino Trombetta et al.

The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1*(E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics.

Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257 [...] However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.

 -


Haplogroup E1b1 which is characterized by a high degree of internal diversity is the most represented Y chromosome haplogroup in Africa. Here we report on the characterization of 12 mutations within this haplogroup, eleven of which were discovered in the course of a resequencing and genotyping project performed in our laboratory. There are several changes compared to the most recently published Y chromosome tree [2]. Haplogroup E1b1 now contains two basal branches, E-V38 (E1b1a) and E-M215 (E1b1b), with V38/V100 joining the two previously separated lineages E-M2 (former E1b1a) and E-M329 (former E1b1c). Each of these two lineages has a peculiar geographic distribution. E-M2 is the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, with frequency peaks in western (about 80%) and central Africa (about 60%).

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Ish Geber
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Tissue Antigens. 2010 Nov;76(5):416-20. doi: 10.1111/j.1399-0039.2010.01534.x.
Polymorphism of HLA class II genes in Berbers from Southern

Tunisia.
Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Buhler S, Dridi A, Benammar El Gaaied A, Sanchez-Mazas A.

Source
Laboratory of Genetics, Immunology and Human Pathologies Faculty of Science of Tunis, University Tunis El Manar, Tunisia.

Abstract

quote:
In this study, the HLA-DRB1 and -DQB1 molecular diversity of two Berber-speaking populations of Southern Tunisia was analysed. Genetic comparisons indicate that both populations exhibit peculiar profiles for HLA-DRB1, as they diverge significantly from most other North Africans, while being highly diversified. At the opposite, they are much less differentiated from neighbouring populations according to the HLA-DQB1 polymorphism. Overall, the HLA class II genetic structure of Arab and Berber-speaking populations from Tunisia, and of North Africa as a whole, is complex and cannot be simply explained by geographic or linguistic differentiations. The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of genetically heterogeneous populations during the history of settlement of North Africa.


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the lioness,
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 -

How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

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xyyman
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Slow down TP. The Lioness only understand pictographs. Abstracts confuses him. You have any pictures? [Big Grin] btw. Great citations. Anyone can see NAians have been continuosly migrating into southern Europe.
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
How did the conversation shift to Islam?? LOL

Anyway here are some recent photos of Tunisians.

Tunisian women and girl:

 -

A Tunisian woman and grandchildren:

 -

Two politicians. Guess which one is Tunisian!:

 -

Very interesting photos Djehuti.
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the lioness,
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Presidents of of Tunisia
 -
Moncef Marzouki
 -
Ben Ali


 -
Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Presidents of of Tunisia
 -
Moncef Marzouki
 -
Ben Ali


 -
Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

Wow Lyin _SS - why were you so offended that there was a dark brown political importance shaking hands with Mrs. Clinton.

BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it. [Wink]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it. [Wink] [/QB]

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it. [Wink]

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles [/QB]

I didn't say anything about the Maghrebians being Arab, LYin _ss. In any case, that is a nationality today in my view. If you are talking about their Levant origins that is a different thing, and is obviously not the equivalent of "Arab". I do believe a considerable portion of the genes of the millions of people that entered North Africa and Spain from the Levant show up in the modern inhabitants of the Northern Maghreb.

Considering the numbers of people that have settled in North Africa, the maghreb is obviously not purely anything. And, I do think the pie charts reflect the diverse origins of the peoples of modern North Africa including Berber-speakers -objectively, though maybe not perfectly - especially in its northern region. [Wink]

I'm sure the southern parts of the Maghreb including Berber-speaking Maghreb are occupied by the peoples of more-or-less Sahelian affiliation, i.e. remnants of the original or less modified Berbers.

Is that OK with you?

BTW - maybe you'd better sign up for that read for context class right away.

Didn't Troll Patrol just post this -
"The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of GENETICALLY HETEROGENEOUS populations during the history of settlement of North Africa."

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the lioness,
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^^^^ There is a contradiction in his posts and going on in various articles that goes back to my old thread

'Mozabite Berbers are 80% African, doc says'


 -
_________________________________________________^

for example, xyyman and Troll look at the figure for E1b1b1b

The is the MB1 mutation

they are using these figures all over 70% (except Siwa)

and they are saying that these populations are indigenous Africa to those 70 + degrees. Taking that at face value, these particalar figures for that haplogroup, example, Mozabites is even high than Doc's 80, it's 86.6
I ask you are modern Mozabites 80+ indigenous African?
How about Middle Atlas Morocco? On average are they 77.6 indigenous African?
But yet Siwa 1.1 ?

This interpreation doesn't make sense.
M81 E1b1b1b is simply a mutation that occured after earlier migrations that have been noted by Henn and others


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks?
There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time.
Settlements, what are they?

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Glad we finally agree something. Always a third time. Can't be any settlements where there aren't any people, can there.

 -

^^^^ the term here "Saharan Arabian" has a magical effect on xyyman as if the word "Arabian" disappears when it is placed behind the word " Saharan"

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xyyman
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Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.


 -

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:

These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

I don't see how that's possible in the case of J. The M81 mutation in Berbers seems to be independent to both M78 and J lineage. Mozabite Berbers don't have any M78 or very few J haplotype (j1+j2=1.5%) (or other "foreign" haplotype such as R) and still have a big amount of M81 (80%). So most Mozabite Berbers got the M81 mutation but not the M78 or J mutation or other foreign mutation. So they acquired the M81 mutation independently from foreign input (they also have 10% of E(xE3b)). The situation is comparable for most other Berbers (not the Siwa Berbers which are heavily admixed with black Africans and non-Africans).
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.


 -

^^^bogus

these statements are unconvincing in light of the fact that you only have South Moroccans circled. And most of the time we are talking about Tunisia anyway. That's' where you find the highest M81
You go out of your way to say 0% Levantive which is not even a title heading , only to say Levantine is an extension of Africa anyway.
Everything is an extension of Africa in some sense

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

To be precise. E-M78 is not the the parent clade of E-M81. Both E-M81 and E-M78 haplogroup are children of the E-M35 parent haplogroup.
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xyyman
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The vast majority of genetic reserach within the last 3 years have confirmed exactly what I am proposing.

The citation(Trombetta) above by TP led me to a 1/2 dozen more today.

North Africans migrated to southern Europe. The kicker is..they navigated to these lands long before Europeans knew how to sail. They were the frist to colonize the Canaries, thousand of years before Europeans.

The Africans populated Arabia, South Europe and the Levant. They were ventually pushed out or exterminated or assimilated. I can cite close to 50 papers that cite the same premise. Even read one today by Cruciani, yes the bigot Cruciani, that admitted to such. ie African migrants occupied Sardinia and Anatolia pre-neolithic. He basicaly admit that the agricultural revolution could possibly also come from North Africa to Sardinia then onto Europe and not necessarily through the Anatolia.

Genetic evidence essentialy confirms migration was one way up until the bronze age.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
I didn't say anything about the Maghrebians being Arab, LYin _ss. In any case, that is a nationality today in my view. If you are talking about their Levant origins that is a different thing, and is obviously not the equivalent of "Arab". I do believe a considerable portion of the genes of the millions of people that entered North Africa and Spain from the Levant show up in the modern inhabitants of the Northern Maghreb.

Considering the numbers of people that have settled in North Africa, the maghreb is obviously not purely anything. And, I do think the pie charts reflect the diverse origins of the peoples of modern North Africa including Berber-speakers -objectively, though maybe not perfectly - especially in its northern region. [Wink]

I'm sure the southern parts of the Maghreb including Berber-speaking Maghreb are occupied by the peoples of more-or-less Sahelian affiliation, i.e. remnants of the original or less modified Berbers.

Is that OK with you?

BTW - maybe you'd better sign up for that read for context class right away.

Didn't Troll Patrol just post this -
"The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of GENETICALLY HETEROGENEOUS populations during the history of settlement of North Africa."

I agree with that post.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

To be precise. E-M78 is not the the parent clade of E-M81. Both E-M81 and E-M78 haplogroup are children of the E-M35 parent haplogroup.
yes and that is why I have another thread, article on E-M215.
E-M215 and E-M35 lineages are almost identical, a division of the macro haplogroup E-M96.
The exact origins are unknown

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xyyman
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Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The vast majority of genetic reserach within the last 3 years have confirmed exactly what I am proposing.

The citation(Trombetta) above by TP led me to a 1/2 dozen more today.

North Africans migrated to southern Europe. The kicker is..they navigated to these lands long before Europeans knew how to sail. They were the frist to colonize the Canaries, thousand of years before Europeans.

The Africans populated Arabia, South Europe and the Levant. They were ventually pushed out or exterminated or assimilated. I can cite close to 50 papers that cite the same premise. Even read one today by Cruciani, yes the bigot Cruciani, that admitted to such. ie African migrants occupied Sardinia and Anatolia pre-neolithic. He basicaly admit that the agricultural revolution could possibly also come from North Africa to Sardinia then onto Europe and not necessarily through the Anatolia.

Genetic evidence essentialy confirms migration was one way up until the bronze age.

 -
 -
 -

look at the legend carefully.

The first people in Europe:
come in from the North
M173 30kya

the first in Anatolia much later
by way of Egypt not Gibralter
M172 10 kya
 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

J1 developed in the Southern Levant and is likely "Semitic" in origin. It has remained situated primarily in Middle Eastern populations and in Northern African Arab populations. Rare in Europeans, with the exception of Jewish Europeans, who have it at a frequency of 14-18%.

Haplogroup J-P209 is believed to have arisen roughly 31,700 years ago in Southwest Asia (31,700±12,800 years ago according to Semino 2004).


Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area.

Semino
O, Magri C, Benuzzi G, Lin AA, Al-Zahery N, Battaglia V, Maccioni L, Triantaphyllidis C, Shen P, Oefner PJ, Zhivotovsky LA, King R, Torroni A, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS.
Source
Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita di Pavia, 27100 Pavia, Italy. semino@ipvgen.unipv.it

Abstract
The phylogeography of Y-chromosome haplogroups E (Hg E) and J (Hg J) was investigated in >2400 subjects from 29 populations, mainly from Europe and the Mediterranean area but also from Africa and Asia. The observed 501 Hg E and 445 Hg J samples were subtyped using 36 binary markers and eight microsatellite loci. Spatial patterns reveal that (1). the two sister clades, J-M267 and J-M172, are distributed differentially within the Near East, North Africa, and Europe; (2). J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people; (3). E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and its presence in Iberia and Sicily is due to recent gene flow from North Africa; (4). J-M172(xM12) distribution is consistent with a Levantine/Anatolian dispersal route to southeastern Europe and may reflect the spread of Anatolian farmers; and (5). E-M78 (for which microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin) and, to a lesser extent, J-M12(M102) lineages would trace the subsequent diffusion of people from the southern Balkans to the west. A 7%-22% contribution of Y chromosomes from Greece to southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis.

M81 reveals recent gene flow from North Africa. Distinct histories of J-M267* lineages are suggested: an expansion from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe and a more-recent diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

I thought you had a better handle on geography to realize that the DNATribes category "Saharan Arabian" has the word Arabian in it as a point of origin. Your logic is off. If the Sahara was the point of origin the word "Arabian" would not be there at all because if we were at the point of origin extensions spread into a whole other continent, that is silly. That is like saying that the Europe comtribution indicates the spread out from a North African origin. That is why you mis read these charts they are not OOA charts they are post OOA charts indicating admixture from regions external to the Maghreb into the the Maghreb the makeup of the modern population of Maghrebian North Africa
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

 -

Norwegians, the music group Queendom

LMAO [Big Grin]

Lyinass translation: my example of modern black Norwegians above are obviously not indigenous Norwegians, therefore Djehuti's post of modern black Tunisians must not be indigenous Tunisians.

Yet Tunisia is in Africa NOT Europe. Therefore who else but blacks are indigenous to Tunisia??

Here are ancient Roman mosaic depictions of Tunisian natives.

 -  -
 -  -

I guess the Romans were mistaken on who the natives were as well. LOL [Big Grin]

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass twit,:

Presidents of of Tunisia

 -
Moncef Marzouki
 -
Ben Ali
 -
Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

LMAOH [Big Grin] @ this lyinass idiot. B|tch, which Tunisians I posted look 'Sahelian' or 'West African'??! Practically all the black Tunisians I posted look NORTH African and nothing like stereotypical peoples of the Sahel of Guinea region! You accuse me of cherry picking when I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia when YOU post pictures of presidents!! How many times must we tell your lyingass that presidents and other political elite nowadays look NOTHING like the indigenes. This is true in North Africa as it is in Latin America! Moncef Marzouki maybe an exception though he is still somewhat in the lighter side. Get your lyinass outta here! [Big Grin]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

Hence:


quote:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

And I already elaborated on Afrasan, with a study done recently, as of 2008. Other recent studies also confirm an East African root for the Afrasan phylum, certainly proto-Afrasan. As posted before.
 -


 -


 -

And note E1b1b's presence in Europe, which we all know accounts for a third of the European Y-chromosome. Yet the lyinass is bent on establishing Eurasian ancestry in North Africans even though Xyzman is correct that their ancestry is still primarily indigenous.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Tissue Antigens. 2010 Nov;76(5):416-20. doi: 10.1111/j.1399-0039.2010.01534.x.
Polymorphism of HLA class II genes in Berbers from Southern

Tunisia.
Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Buhler S, Dridi A, Benammar El Gaaied A, Sanchez-Mazas A.

Source
Laboratory of Genetics, Immunology and Human Pathologies Faculty of Science of Tunis, University Tunis El Manar, Tunisia.

Abstract

quote:
In this study, the HLA-DRB1 and -DQB1 molecular diversity of two Berber-speaking populations of Southern Tunisia was analysed. Genetic comparisons indicate that both populations exhibit peculiar profiles for HLA-DRB1, as they diverge significantly from most other North Africans, while being highly diversified. At the opposite, they are much less differentiated from neighbouring populations according to the HLA-DQB1 polymorphism. Overall, the HLA class II genetic structure of Arab and Berber-speaking populations from Tunisia, and of North Africa as a whole, is complex and cannot be simply explained by geographic or linguistic differentiations. The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of genetically heterogeneous populations during the history of settlement of North Africa.


We all know that at least in Y-chromosome North Africans largely have lineages that date to neolithic times.
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

 -

How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

That's because the genetic history of the Maghreb and that of northeast Africa are different. We told your dumb ass this many times before but you never listen. Siwa may be Berbers but they are NOT Maghrebis; they are northeast Africans, specifically Egyptians!!

Your simple mind keeps identifying Berber with Maghreb when the two are not inclusive! This explains why you try to postulate Maghrebi genetic origins with those of ancient and predynastic Temehu even though Temehu are Egyptian also and not Maghrebi.

[Roll Eyes]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:


Yet Tunisia is in Africa NOT Europe. Therefore who else but blacks are indigenous to Tunisia??


Who is indigenous is not at issue on this particular point.
There are some blacks in Norway if you were to do a pie chart of DNA for average Norwegians blacks would occupy a small sliver
of that chart. Likewise if we are to look at another population indigenous Americans take up a small sliver of a modern American chart.
Now maybe the native Americans should get their land back. However that politics has no bearing on the genetic percentage contribution to the modern poulation as a whole.
DNATribes has such a charts. For the Sahel they are indicated primarily African, tropical West, Great lakes and Horn and with some contributions from outside of Africa.
But the North African region which they analzed the Maghebian portion of it on the whole, considering the entrie popualtion is not primarily indigenous to the extent of Paleolithic.
Since different waves of migrations came in as noted by Henn and others a unique mutation M81 has occured and is set aprt now from both European and SSA affinities. this is attributed to isolation and drift.
It should be obvious that when you look at Tunsian berbers, some of whom have the highest percenatges of this so called berber marker they are not as African looking as some other berbers. If that hap was indigenous the South Moroccans would have the highest percenatges of it. In fact they and the Siwa even more, relative to other berbers have the lowest percentages it - that should tell you something,

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Djehuti
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^ And how many times must we tell you that phenotype does NOT necessarily correlate with genotype or genetic marker. About a quarter of Greeks carry African lineages as well yet those that do don't look African either! In the mean time there are many African Americans who carry European paternal lineages from slavery times yet look no different from blacks in West Africa! Look what kind of lineage this Scottish man has.

As another example...

 -

^ Note the frequency of African lineages among 'Arab' Egyptians of Cairo. How many of these Arabs actually look African?? Apparently not many according to their discrimination against blacks and their disdain for dark skin.

Do you not understand the implications of phenotype not correlating to genetic lineage?! I thought this was made clear to you years ago when your lyinass first showed up in this forum! [Roll Eyes]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia

that's why you're an idiot, the masses are in cities and these analysis are based on the population as a whole.

The looks of some rural the people is not the same as Sahelins, they're halfway between them an th average Tunisians, you dope relatively more SSA

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Djehuti
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^ The same holds true for Egypt! Yet who resembles ancient Egyptians more? Rural folks like Baladi from Giza or urban folks like uptown Cairene Arabs. BOTH may share the same African lineages yet they differ radically in looks. What does that say about YOUR claims, you dummy?!
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Djehuti
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And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

 -

One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL

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Son of Ra
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Interesting post.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -



that they are highly unusual looking for average Maghrebians dumb ass.
They might have been very nice people but in a general analysis of the modern Maghreab would occupy a very small percentage.

You are predictable, you look for any opportunity, same photos from another thread, trying to impress people, hey look at these interesting "black" people I found,
Now relate that to the DNATribes NA region analysis, was the goal to document every obscure ethnicity in the region? Oh so that must mena I hate these people, I'm "dismissing these poor people, get out of here, look at the pie chart, you want like 50 pieces now so we can make every body feel good, go to tishkoff and tell her she left out 2000 tribes from her charts
stop patronizing people and trying to get points
and got mosaic people, posted a million times up don't even look more African than Near Eastern/Med, seen it before. Post something new for once

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

I see, Djehuti responded before, but I will respond to it as well.


It was addressed before, suggested was a bottleneck effect, causing genetic drift.

Siwans carry E-M183 which is the parent clade of E-M81, as was explained before. E-M78 is more local to Northeast Africa, while E-M81 is more local to and basically only found in Northwest Africa. Therefore using the definition "North Africans" or "North Africa" is an erroneous one in my opinion. Even thou they in cosmetic appearance look somewhat alike, there are still ethnic differences.

May I remind you that Tuaregs carry older stems and relate to the Beja. Siwans look somewhat like Bejas in appearance, but reside in a different location.

While the Berber sub-clade of E-M81 is relatively young. Likely this mutation of E-M81 deals with migration levels by these early pastoralists into different terrains. Map it and you'll see it correlates with the climatic changes.


See again:

quote:
E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).


Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it. [Wink]

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles [/QB]

The Magreb is a complex region, there are many ethnic groups. The people as posted by Djehuti are mostly at the South. Of the Magreb, while the people you're showing are mostly at the North at coastal regions. These Northern regions had invasions, which explains the admixture.

And Djehuti is correct, the people you post up could be of Arab or Turkish descent, or even Spanish or Portuguese, since there have been colonies by them as well.


Turkish Nationals Leaving Libya as Turmoil Escalates


 -


quote:
With the crisis continuing to deepen in Libya, Turkey's prime minister has announced mass evacuation measures to remove thousands of Turks from the country. Hundreds of Turks have already fled the country.

Every day brings plane loads of Turks escaping the turmoil in Libya. Arriving at Istanbul's main airport, many of them have grim stories to tell, like this man: "At night it was very violent," he said. "We could hear the gunshots. We could see the clouds of smoke, All the Turks are worried."

A woman had a similar story. "We live in the center of the city and suddenly there is no police or people in regular uniforms," she said. "There were just people who were shooting with machine guns at everything. I believe many people died."

According to the Turkish government there are nearly 25,000 Turks living in Libya, most of whom are working there.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in his weekly address to parliamentary deputies, said that 800 people had been already been evacuated and a further 2,800 want to leave.

The prime minister said seven planes were ready to leave and two ferryboats escorted by a Turkish frigate, were about to arrive in Libya.

Mr. Erdogan also gave a warning. "I would like to remind both officials and government opponents in Libya to be extremely careful to ensure the security of foreigners in their country," he said. "Taking cruel steps against people voicing their democratic demands will only exacerbate the spiral of violence and threaten the country’s unity."

Unconfirmed Turkish news reports claim Libyan security forces have detained several Turkish nationals, accusing them of being involved in the unrest. Other reports say the nationals are accused of working for Israel. Such reports only add to the anxiety faced by those in Turkey awaiting news from their relatives.

One woman whose family is stranded in Libya said, "They are stuck in the middle of the desert. They are in a dire situation and because they are in the desert nobody knows about their situation."

The Turkish prime minister has until now largely avoided speaking about events in Libya. That is in contrast to his call on the then Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak to step down. But observers say with Turkey having such a large number of nationals living in Libya and having close multi billion dollar trade deals with the country, the prime minister has to tread carefully.

http://www.voanews.com/content/turkish-nationals-leaving-libya-as-turmoil-escalates-116684804/160209.html
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia

that's why you're an idiot, the masses are in cities and these analysis are based on the population as a whole.

The looks of some rural the people is not the same as Sahelins, they're halfway between them an th average Tunisians, you dope relatively more SSA

The thing is that in rural locations the population mostly stays stable, while cities have lot of immigrants. A city is more dynamic in change.
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

 -

 -

 -

 -



that they are highly unusual looking for average Maghrebians dumb ass.
They might have been very nice people but in a general analysis of the modern Maghreab would occupy a very small percentage.

You are predictable, you look for any opportunity, same photos from another thread, trying to impress people, hey look at these interesting "black" people I found,
Now relate that to the DNATribes NA region analysis, was the goal to document every obscure ethnicity in the region? Oh so that must mena I hate these people, I'm "dismissing these poor people, get out of here, look at the pie chart, you want like 50 pieces now so we can make every body feel good, go to tishkoff and tell her she left out 2000 tribes from her charts
stop patronizing people and trying to get points
and got mosaic people, posted a million times up don't even look more African than Near Eastern/Med, seen it before. Post something new for once

The people posted by Djehuti aren't obscure, they are the main dominant at the Middle and Southern part of the Magreb. There remains and remnants go back to the Holocene, as has been shown by the actual site scenes. We have followed paternal the genetic trace, showing its mostly African. So, where does DNA-tribes accumulated this?
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Presidents of of Tunisia
 -
Moncef Marzouki
 -
Ben Ali


 -
Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

The other two look Spanish/ Portuguese. In morphological sense. Not weird, since Spaniards had a colonial base in Tunis. But also the French. This is what makes the history of the Magreb complex.

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ There is a contradiction in his posts and going on in various articles that goes back to my old thread

'Mozabite Berbers are 80% African, doc says'


 -
_________________________________________________^

for example, xyyman and Troll look at the figure for E1b1b1b

The is the MB1 mutation

they are using these figures all over 70% (except Siwa)

and they are saying that these populations are indigenous Africa to those 70 + degrees. Taking that at face value, these particalar figures for that haplogroup, example, Mozabites is even high than Doc's 80, it's 86.6
I ask you are modern Mozabites 80+ indigenous African?
How about Middle Atlas Morocco? On average are they 77.6 indigenous African?
But yet Siwa 1.1 ?

This interpreation doesn't make sense.
M81 E1b1b1b is simply a mutation that occured after earlier migrations that have been noted by Henn and others


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks?
There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time.
Settlements, what are they?

quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
Glad we finally agree something. Always a third time. Can't be any settlements where there aren't any people, can there.

 -

^^^^ the term here "Saharan Arabian" has a magical effect on xyyman as if the word "Arabian" disappears when it is placed behind the word " Saharan"

If you add all E*'s in a summation see what happens.LOL
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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