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Author Topic: EgyptSearch...."Afrocentric haven"
Son of Ra
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I know this is very off topic..
 -

^^But was Queen Kemsit a native Egyptian or Nubian?

Some people say she was a Nubian and some say she was an Egyptian. I'm just confused.

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the lioness,
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her background is uncertain
 -

Fragment of painted limestone relief from the tomb of Kemsit
© The Trustees of the British Museum

00031291001

Limestone temple relief, 11th Dynasty, 2055BC- 2004BC, Shrine of Kemsit, Temple of Mentuhotep II, Deir el-Bahari, Egypt


Eternal Egypt, British Museum quote:

Page 89:

"Kemsit's skin color is now pink, but so are her necklace and bracelets and other parts of the relief. The pink may have been an undercoat, and traces of a darker color on her skin, a brown or dark red, may have been the actual color of her skin when the relief was freshly painted. Other representations of Kemsit (and some of the other Royal Favorites) show her with black skin. It has been argued that the occasional representation of black skin on these women is purely symbolic, having funerary significance because black was the color of fertility and rebirth. That is possible, but it is also entirely possible that Kemsit and some of the other women buried in these chapels were Nubian by birth or by ancestry.

 -

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Son of Ra
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^^I see.
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the lioness,
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.


Queen Ahmose-Nefertari

Queen Ahmose-Nefertari was the mother of King Amenhotep I. She probably ruled for him as his regent when he was a young boy.


There was no word for 'Queen' in ancient Egypt, as female rulers were so unusual; instead they were known as "king's wife". Both Ahmose-Nefertari and Amenhotep were made into goddesses after their deaths, an unusual occurrence at the time, and one that showed Ahmose-Nefertari's importance. The cobra on Ahmose-Nefertari's crown and the flail in her hand indicate her royal status.
 -
This portrait of her was painted on a tomb wall 400 years after she died, when she was being worshipped as a god in the local area of Thebes.
 -


 -

 -

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Amenhotep I and Ahmose-Nefertari, Tomb of Nebamun and Ipuky
Hugh R. Hopgood (Egyptian Expedition Graphic Section)
Date: ca. 1390–1349 B.C.
Accession Number: 30.4.158

 -

Stela of the Sculptor Qen worshipping Amenhotep I and Ahmose-Nefertari
Period: New Kingdom, Ramesside Dynasty: Dynasty 19 Reign: reign of Ramesses II Date: ca. 1279–1213 B.C. Geography: Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Deir el-Medina, Tomb of Qen (TT

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Mikemikev
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Only the Aethiopians were percieved by the Greeks and Romans to be "Black", not Egyptians. Further evidence for this, is that a white skinned Aethiopian tribe was reported by Pliny, the leucoaethiops ("white aethiopians"), yet no one named a "white egyptian" or "white libyan", for the obvious reason, North Africans were percieved already lighter (so there would be no need to add "white").
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Swenet
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^Yeah. they were really white:

[Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

^Denialism is a mental disease, boy. Get it looked at
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Mikemikev
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
^Yeah. they were really white:

[Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

^Denialism is a mental disease, boy. Get it looked at
?

They fall in the Caucasoid range in pigmentation.

Compare to Negroid hue:

 -

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the lioness,
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 -
Cedarwood coffin of Queen Ahmose Meritamun, daughter of Ahmose I and Queen Ahmose Nefertari, and sister and wife of King Amenhotep I, from her tomb at Deir el-Bahri in western Thebes.

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Meritamun's inner coffin


Ahmose-Meritamun (or Ahmose-Meritamon) was a Queen of Egypt during the early Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt. She was both the sister and the wife of Pharaoh Amenhotep I.
The coffin of her mummy was covered in gold which had been stripped in antiquity. The inner coffin was smaller, but still over 6 ft tall. The inner coffin had also been covered in gold but stripped of this precious metal. The mummy had been carefully rewrapped during the reign of Pinedjem I.

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Pharaoh Amenhotep I.
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Pharaoh Amenhotep I.

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Pharaoh Amenhotep I, New Kingdom, Dynasty 18, reign of Amenhotep I, ca. 1525–1504 B.C.. Metropolitan Museum of Art
Egyptian
Sandstone
Amenhotep I, second king of Dynasty 18, consolidated the conquests of his father in Nubia and the Near East and built numerous monuments throughout Egypt. At Thebes, he founded the Workmen's Village of Deir el-Medina, where the artisans who built and decorated the royal tombs in the Valley of the Kings lived. In later times, he was deified and became the local god of this area along with his mother, Ahmose-Nefertari. He was the first king to separate his mortuary temple at Deir el-Bahri from his tomb in the Valley of the Kings.
This sandstone head comes from an Osirid statue of the king that probably stood on the processional way of his mortuary temple. Originally it would have worn the double crown of Egypt. It is similar in style, material, and function to the colossal statue of Mentuhotep II (26.3.29) from Deir el-Bahri, which also stood in the processional way of his mortuary temple.

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the lioness,
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 -

Huni Pharaoh) of the 3rd dynasty, Old Kingdom reigning for 24 years starting ca. 2625 BC.
Huni is mentioned on the back of the Palermo stone in the section concerning the reign of the 5th Dynasty king Neferirkare Kakai.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Faheemdunkers:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] ^Yeah. they were really white:

[Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/eg/web-large/59.93_EGDP013746.jpg

^Denialism is a mental disease, boy. Get it looked at

?

They fall in the Caucasoid range in pigmentation.

Compare to Negroid hue:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/019M2jf19Z1m1/610x.jpg[/IMG]

Another goal post shift. You said the Greeks never said ''white Egyptians'' because it was self-evident that they were white. Now, you say they were not really white, just not as darks skinned as most equatorial Africans (which no one in is right mind is denying). Even though you accuse everyone and their mama of being a 'lumper', lumping is clearly all you've been doing since day one. Your level of mental retardation goes through the roof, boy.

 -

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass dummy:

But he [Manilius] doesn't use the word race and doesn't use a word that means it

Then what does the word 'gentes' mean you, dumb b|tch?!

quote:
All he does is go through a list of nationalities and their relative skin darkness and lightness (assuming this is a valid way to categorize people)
Dumb b|tch, those nationalities ARE the 'races'. That's what 'race' originally meant-- ethnic group or nationality! The Latin word was gente which translates in many English texts as 'race'. The Greek equivalent was ethnikoi from which we get the English word 'ethnicity'!! Moron!

quote:
That is a lie. He did not add any word after such ethniticities such as Indians, Aegyptians.
He did not say "people of the Indian" race or any word added after their nationality.

Same answer as above. Ethicity = race! 'hominum gentes' means human races with Ethiopians being the darkest of them all. Progenerat means progeny or kind. It's clear to anyone who remotely understands Latin even through knowing Romance (Latin derived) languages which in my case is Spanish and French!

quote:
But further, you have taken it upon yourself to take his list and separate it in two separate groupings dark and light
Dumb b|tch, again it is NOT I but Manilius who did this! Which is why he makes two separate lists as Takruri explained to you dumbass here when you tried to distort his words!

quote:
What you are doing is devising of your own accord sorting people into 'black" and white" categories and putting the ethnicities mentioned within a poem into one of these two categories which Manilus DOES NOT DO
Stupid strawman! Of course he does not out right say there is a 'white' race and a 'black' race. He merely lists fair people in one group and dark folks in another group but makes it clear there is a continuum where they meet in the middle!

quote:
here is the latin:

M. MANILII ASTRONOMICON LIBER QUARTUS (IV)

711-730

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/manilius4.html

Rough to English wiki Translation:

.Therefore, in various laws and various shapes
class is composed of a regular arrangement of men, gives them their own color
formed Nations sociataque rights through the frame
materials to match the private treaty signed.
blonde with huge rises in Germany births, 715
France neighborhood is infected less redness,
rougher sous Spain frame contracts.
Martian Rome father put faces
Gradivus Venus mixing well warms limbs
colored by the Greek people, 720 fine
school prefers face strong wrestling,
Syria and tortured during record locks.
Ethiopians stain the world and darkness figure
reeking of nations less India Tosti
engendered, 725a
earth floats Egyptian Nile 726b
darkens bodies gently watered plains
now closer 726a
center, it does moderate tenor. 725b
Phoebus sandy dust African countries 728
dries up the people, and the name of Mauritania
mouth has its label bears the color.

_____________________________________________

^^^ this is a literal translation
It's automated and not comparable to a professional translator.
However what we can clearly see is written in poetic form, each nation described in a unique way

rather than a two category clinical list with a systematic use of the word "dark" light" or "black' and "white" or "races"

Find any translation of this. I do not think you will find this sort of modern minded division into 'black races' and 'white races' that Djehutie is trying to promote

LOL Of course it's an automated translation since the grammar is awful! But the answer remains in my reply above. He goes from fairest to darkest among light-skinned people of Europe and then Southwest Asia. He then goes from darkest to lightest among peoples of the 'southern lands' as Greco-Roman peoples say. He then goes to say they meet in the 'middle' showing a continuum. That you say that I am saying there is a sharp distinction from light and dark peoples is another LIE of yours!
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

You're not making any sense. If its just a random ordering, why:

1) does the ordering conform to what we would expect in both cases (light skinned and dark skinned populations)

2) does he repeatedly use descriptive adverbs like ''less'' and ''more'', consistent with the order of light to swarthy for Western Eurasians and highly melanated to light skinned for Africans and Asiatic dark skinned people (e.g., less red, darkens bodies darker, moderate tenore, less india tosti)? The question then becomes, ''less'' relative to what? The previous example ofcourse. India is ''less tosti'' compared to what, if not the Aethiopians in the previous sentence?

quote:
I do not think you will find
No one cares about what you think. Just present evidence or stay away.
Correct. He goes from fairest to darkest among the 'northern nations' with Syrians being the darkest who are in the middle (the Mediterranean region). Then he goes from darkest to lightest among the 'southern nations' again meeting in the middle with the Mauretanians of Tunisia (again in the Mediterranean region).
quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Just present evidence or stay away.

I did idiot I put the actual poem up with a traslation

Djehutie did not put up the full evidence , dumbo

He claims it is a list of
"division between the light (white) races of the northern lands and the dark (black)"

^^^ this is a modern racialized interpretation of this poem and I busted Djehutie on this
and he tries to BS that "race" here = nationality at the same time inserting 'black' and 'white'.
But 'race" here does not = nationality because the word or equivalent of it is not here at all in the text, much less "black race" and "white race" versions of it

hypocrisy

Dumb b|tch, there is nothing 'racial' about it. He groups dark peoples of the south and light peoples of the north and say their complexions grade toward the middle i.e in the Mediterranean region. My transliteration is correct but YOU are the one who misinterprets me into saying all the peoples of the south are one biological 'race' and all the peoples of the north are another biological 'race' when that's NOT what I said or meant!! Note I never said that Manilius stated all the southern peoples are genetically related into one group anymore than he said all the northern peoples are related as one group! That's because he never said such a thing!

In other words it is YOU like Farthead who reads modern notions of biological race into everything. LMAO [Big Grin]

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
So far, all I have said is the record of my own autopsy and judgment and inquiry. Henceforth I will record Egyptian chronicles, according to what I have heard, adding something of what I myself have seen" . . . . "The priests told me that Min was the first king of Egypt, and that first he separated Memphis from the Nile by a dam" . . . "After him came three hundred and thirty kings, whose names the priests recited from a papyrus roll. In all these many generations there were eighteen Ethiopian kings, and one queen, native to the country; the rest were all Egyptian men" . . . "The name of the queen was the same as that of the Babylonian princess, Nitocris. She, to avenge her brother (he was king of Egypt and was slain by his subjects, who then gave Nitocris the sovereignty) put many of the Egyptians to death by treachery".
(Herodotus: The Histories, c 430 BCE, Book II, chap. 100)

Most people would probably interpret the "nineteen Ethiopian rulers" as alluding to the Napatan occupation, but then only six Napatan kings (Kashta, Piye, Shabaka, Shebitku, Taharqa, and Tantamani) controlled Egypt. If we take Herodotus at face value, several more Egyptian rulers had "Ethiopian" (Nubian?) ancestry than conventionally realized.
Yes, this issue was discussed several times before if you recall. That the 17th and dynasty and descendant 18th dynasty of the New Kingdom and 11th dynasty and descendant 12th dynasty of the Middle Kingdom were of Nubian origin as well as a few more dynasties of the Old Kingdom.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

I know this is very off topic..
 -

^^But was Queen Kemsit a native Egyptian or Nubian?

Some people say she was a Nubian and some say she was an Egyptian. I'm just confused.

This post is actually related to Truthcentric's query!

It's prossible Kemsit was Nubian since her King Mentuhotep had a penchant for marrying Nubian ladies such as Ashayet, Sadeh, and Hehenet who were the daughters of Medjay chieftains or lords from the Eastern desert. Then again, there is evidence that Mentuhotep himself was of Nubian ancestry! I suggest you look here.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

Queen Ahmose-Nefertari

Queen Ahmose-Nefertari was the mother of King Amenhotep I. She probably ruled for him as his regent when he was a young boy.

There was no word for 'Queen' in ancient Egypt, as female rulers were so unusual; instead they were known as "king's wife". Both Ahmose-Nefertari and Amenhotep were made into goddesses after their deaths, an unusual occurrence at the time, and one that showed Ahmose-Nefertari's importance. The cobra on Ahmose-Nefertari's crown and the flail in her hand indicate her royal status.
 -
This portrait of her was painted on a tomb wall 400 years after she died, when she was being worshipped as a god in the local area of Thebes.
 -


 -

 -

 -
Amenhotep I and Ahmose-Nefertari, Tomb of Nebamun and Ipuky
Hugh R. Hopgood (Egyptian Expedition Graphic Section)
Date: ca. 1390–1349 B.C.
Accession Number: 30.4.158

 -

Stela of the Sculptor Qen worshipping Amenhotep I and Ahmose-Nefertari
Period: New Kingdom, Ramesside Dynasty: Dynasty 19 Reign: reign of Ramesses II Date: ca. 1279–1213 B.C. Geography: Egypt, Upper Egypt; Thebes, Deir el-Medina, Tomb of Qen (TT

Black was a sacred color in ancient Egypt symbolizing divinity and rebirth. Ahmose-Nefertari is depicted with black skin because as Lyinass explained, she was deified and considered a great goddess with a cult of her own. The fact that she had such a significant position in the royal court with many Egyptologists surmising she may have been equal to the pharaoh, as well as her fighting alongside her husband in battle as a warrior against the Hyksos (just like her mother Ahhotep), along with her deification is taken by many to be traditions of Nubian origin. Which again goes back to Truthcentric's question of rulers of Nubian descent.

From the book X-raying the Pharaohs by James Harris and Kent Weeks:

"His entire lower facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian--that is, non-Egyptian--origin for Seqenenra and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true. If it is, the history of the family that reputedly drove the Hyksos from Egypt, and the history of the Seventeenth Dynasty, stand in need of considerable re-examination"

and...

Egyptologist Donald Redford "believes Hatshepsut's attainment of the throne represents the final attempt in the Eighteenth Dynasty to establish a strong matrairchate in Egypt. He cites the unusual importance of earlier queens in this period --Tetisheri, Ahhotep I, Ahmose-Nefertari--as evidence of such a tendency, and here suggest that the influences for such a matriarchally determined order of succession might have come from Nubia. The possibility that the rulers of the Seventeenth Dynasty were themselves at least part Nubian"

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:

Only the Aethiopians were percieved by the Greeks and Romans to be "Black", not Egyptians. Further evidence for this, is that a white skinned Aethiopian tribe was reported by Pliny, the leucoaethiops ("white aethiopians"), yet no one named a "white egyptian" or "white libyan", for the obvious reason, North Africans were percieved already lighter (so there would be no need to add "white").

LOL You still repeat this lie despite all the evidence I provided. You still distort the words of the Greeks who say that Ethiopians are the darkest and have a deep black hue whereas Egyptians though lighter approach that hue!
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
^Yeah. they were really white:

[Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

^Denialism is a mental disease, boy. Get it looked at
Indeed. Racism itself is a mental disease.
quote:
Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers:

They fall in the Caucasoid range in pigmentation.

Compare to Negroid hue:

 -

Yes a mahogany complexion is part of the Caucasoid range of pigmentation but not the Negroid who can only have ebony dark hue. That is obviously how you interpret the Greek and Roman texts.

I guess half of these Nigerian women aren't really black either. [Roll Eyes]

 -

 -

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
He groups dark peoples of the south and light peoples of the north and say their complexions grade toward the middle i.e in the Mediterranean region.

No he doesn't group

that's a lie

Of these ethnicities he does not use the same adjective consistently.
There is no such consistent pattern and no two part divison.

A word for 'light' or 'white' is not even used

You inserted 'black race' and 'white race'

such terms have societal baggage. You wanted it.

Now to save face after having done that you claim you meant it in some other way.

The simple fact is that gentes means nations and that is made clear by national names he mentions, you dumb fvck

And the essential point is that Manilus does not combine the word gentes with another word to mean "the black gentes" and does not correspondingly combine the word gentes with a word meaning "the white gentes" .

You fvcked up. You read somebody's interpretation that this was a list of the black races and a list of the white races.
Same thing black nations and white nations only problem is that he did not put a stereotype skin color word or darkness/lightness word next to "nation"

The terms 'black' and 'white' are the most racial terms there are.
And you choose these words and you choose the word 'race' because you believe in the concept when it's convenient. When it's not convenient you say it doesn't exist.

people who don't believe in race don't use the terms 'black', 'white' and yellow for people and they would not choose to use the word 'race' when nation could be used. You are a fraudster

Your Afrocentric mission you have stated is that scientists should 'admit the Egyptians were black'.

You choose not to use the word 'dark' in that statement because that's not enough. You need the racial term 'black',

Then to protect yourself if anybody questiosn your choice of terms you say you meant 'dark' not anything else.

It's a game you play and one I have exposed numerous times.

This is why I respetc Clyde more if he says the Egyptians were black because he says it's racial.
People who don't believe in race would never use that word for people. To do so and claim to not believe in race is hypocritical.


 -  -


.Therefore, in various laws and various shapes
class is composed of a regular arrangement of men, gives them their own color
formed Nations sociataque rights through the frame
materials to match the private treaty signed.
blonde with huge rises in Germany births, 715
France neighborhood is infected less redness,
rougher sous Spain frame contracts.
Martian Rome father put faces
Gradivus Venus mixing well warms limbs
colored by the Greek people, 720 fine
school prefers face strong wrestling,
Syria and tortured during record locks.
Ethiopians stain the world and darkness figure
reeking of nations less India Tosti
engendered, 725a
earth floats Egyptian Nile 726b
darkens bodies gently watered plains
now closer 726a
center, it does moderate tenor. 725b
Phoebus sandy dust African countries 728
dries up the people, and the name of Mauritania
mouth has its label bears the color.


German
French
Spanish
Roman
Greek
Syrian
Ethiopian
Indian
Egyptian
Mauretanian

^^^^ This is exactly the order the names appear in. It's not even in graduated order from light to dark

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Djehuti
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^ LOL First off, you need to get you a better translation as the one you provide is atrocious.

Second of all, the whole listing was explained to your dumbass in the original thread on Manilius here.
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

You are refusing to read Manilius in context. He
places the Egyptians complexion between that of
the Indians and the Saharans.

Roman complexion is between Spaniards and Greeks.

There is no escaping the plain meaning of the text.

Standing between Egyptians and Romans in increasing
lightening of complexion are the dark Saharans and
Maures and the light Syrians and Greeks.

In Manilius' order white complexions from the most
light to the least light are
- Germania
- Gallia
- Hispania
- Romanis
- Graecia
- Syrium

In Manilius' order black complexions from the most
dark to the least dark are
- Aethiopes
- India
- Aegyptia
- Afrorum
- Mauretania

This leaves Afrorum, Mauretania, Syrium, and Graecia
complexions interspacning those of Egypt and Rome. That's
four intervening complexions. No way for Egypt and Rome
being near in complexion, while Egypt has only India
between it and Ethiopia.

Therefore by Manilius Egypt is very close to Ethiopia
in colour but very far from Rome in "skin pigmentation
adaptation" as you put it.

You can keep denying it all you want but the groupings are in part due to the Greco-Roman world view of southern lands vs. northern lands with the legend that peoples of the southern lands were burnt dark or black by the sun and the Mediterranean is the middle of the world between northern and southern.

Of course Manilius's groupings are not 'racial' in the sense that he makes no claim of close biological relations between members of each group. But as Takruri pointed out, as a Roman he makes Rome the central point of reference.

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the lioness,
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^^^ they have various descriptions of people from various places some described as burnt by the sun however this should not be translated as 'white complexions' and 'black complexions' to devise these categories as two distinct separate groupings.

In modern culture you can find all sorts of writings about what is black what is white what is yellow

If you bring up Mediterranean and say it's between it's not accounted for in a list that is divided into two parts.
If you say there is gray it's a third 'mulatto' gray category and the gray person doesn't belong in either the white or black catagories.
Let's see a piece of ancient Greek writing where it is worded such as 'blacks' or 'whites' as a thing unto itself and then placing various people into these groupings. Modern Brazilians have more than two catgories applied to such a collection of nationalites, yet for some reason we are supposed to apply either black or white, either the darks or the lights

The difference is if you say someone is dark compared to they are a dark or one of the darks, of the black race etc.

The proper way to speak of this poem is that various nations are menationed and varying degrees of skin tone described.
The wrong way is to apply modern terms with a lot of social baggage 'black and 'white' and then proceed to say Manilus listed black people and white people
that is dumb.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

I know this is very off topic..
 -

^^But was Queen Kemsit a native Egyptian or Nubian?

Some people say she was a Nubian and some say she was an Egyptian. I'm just confused.

This post is actually related to Truthcentric's query!

It's prossible Kemsit was Nubian since her King Mentuhotep had a penchant for marrying Nubian ladies such as Ashayet, Sadeh, and Hehenet who were the daughters of Medjay chieftains or lords from the Eastern desert. Then again, there is evidence that Mentuhotep himself was of Nubian ancestry! I suggest you look here.

Thanks.
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Brada-Anansi
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Anyone took a look at her name Kem=Black + whatever sit means..a variation of Isis perhaps??..just saying!!

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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The 12th Dynasty can definitely trace its roots in Kush.
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Son of Ra
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXNVpXB-wo

^^^In that video Ashra Kwesi states that Kush/Kemet is the daughter of Ethiopia. While all three are the granddaughters of the Congo @12:27...

What are you guys thoughts?

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXNVpXB-wo

^^^In that video Ashra Kwesi states that Kush/Kemet is the daughter of Ethiopia. While all three are the granddaughters of the Congo @12:27...

What are you guys thoughts?

Congo? That's possible. He said grandmother and yes it's possible but we must show academically (archeology, etc) that there's a real transfer of culture from prehistoric Congo toward Kush and then Kemet. We can't just hang around ideas in the air without any kind of scientific proof (although it's ok to do it for some brainstorming in this forum). Also when we're talking about grandmother and great grandmother we're talking about a very very ancient cultural linkage. Pre-Holocene.

On the other thread about the Green Sahara Holocene period, scientists have determined some linkage between Ancient south-"west" Africa and the Green Sahara civilization.

I wont repost the whole thing but in short. We know the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilization had profound influence in the formative years of Kush and Kemet. Kush and Kemet were part of this cultural complex during the Holocene.

This Saharan-Nile civilization which inhabited the Sahara when it was green during the Holocene could be said to have culturally originated in Mali if we consider pottery as the starting point of the culture.

Those ancient Mali inhabitant themselves culturally originating in Nigeria, Ivory Coast and Cameroon (in reverse chronological order) if we consider the spread of the microlithic technocomplex.

So there seem to be a very very ancient cultural linkage between Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Mali, the Green Sahara, Kush and Kemet. Those linkage actually proven by archeological studies. So Cameroon could be considered a very distant grandmother to Kemet.


Consider the last paragraph.

quote:
The beginning of the Holocene at Ounjougou

Introduction

The Ogolian, an extremely arid episode beginning in West Africa around 23,000 BP, is represented at Ounjougou by a significant sedimentary and archaeological hiatus. It is not until the return of humid climatic conditions at the beginning of the Holocene that we once again find evidence for humans in this part of the continent. It is thus in a context of heavy rains and recolonization of the vegetal cover, at the beginning of the 10th millennium BC, that a new population was established on the Bandiagara Plateau. At the Ounjougou site complex, several sites have made it possible to define two occupation phases chronologically situated between 10,000 and 7,000 cal BC. Strikingly, the presence of pottery is attested from the first half of the 10th mill. BC. This is the earliest evidence for pottery in sub-Saharan Africa. The use of stone milling material is confirmed from the 8th mill. BC by the discovery of a millstone and grinder.

Issues and objectives

It is thus within a context of climatic and environmental change, of migrations and repopulation of a region of Africa abandoned for several thousand years that the craft of making pottery and the use of milling emerged. Our aims are to better understand the material culture of these Early Holocene populations, to determine their origins and identify their development, and finally to clarify the paleoenvironmental context in which they were established and evolved. Understanding of the mechanisms in which humans invented pottery and milling tools clearly lie at the heart of our research problem. Our main objective is therefore to excavate stratified sites located in the valley base, geologically in situ, to obtain the broadest sample possible of material remains, to situate the site in relative and absolute chronologies and to place them in relation to the geomorphological and archaeobotanical sequence. By comparison to the rare contemporaneous assemblages in West and Saharan Africa, we hope to retrace the route of humans after the vegetation had returned at the beginning of the Holocene. Finally, via systematic survey, we hope to discover contemporaneous site yielding complementary data on these populations, in terms of subsistence economy or the use of space.

The 10th and 9th millennia BC (Phase 1 of the Holocene of Ounjougou)

It is at the site of Ravin de la Mouche that we identify the first Holocene sedimentary sequence, in the form of a channel cut into the yellow Pleistocene silts, infilled with coarse sand and gravel. The chronological placement of the upper layers of this first group has been determined by 12 radiocarbon dates and 3 OSL dates between 9,400 and 8,400 cal BC. The lithic industry discovered in stratigraphic position shows that unidirectional reduction predominates, but other techniques, such as bipolar reduction on anvil and multidirectional, were also employed. Quartz was the main raw material used and the typological range includes small retouched flakes, borers and especially an original type of bifacial armatures with covering retouch.

Three ceramic sherds are linked to this industry. They all come from the base of the HA1A stratigraphic unit. Their thickness ranges between 4.5 and 7 mm. The only way is refundable on board simple hemispherical bowl of 21 cm diameter. One sherd shows a roulette decoration, which could not be further identified. Microscopic analysis of two samples revealed that they contain a silicate matrix, without carbonates, with 20-30% of non-plastic inclusions. These consist mainly of single crystal quartz well rounded with an edge of recrystallization, with a fine to very fine diameter. These quartz are quite similar to those found in local sandstone and clays. Mineralogical analysis of the nearest clay deposits by X-ray diffraction revealed the presence of kaolinite, whose absence in ceramics indicates a cooking temperature above 550 � C. The pastes were prepared using non-calcareous clays with little prior treatment, as shown by their texture somewhat chaotic. The serial structure indicates that no temper has been added. Only one sherd contains fragments of grog, with a maximum diameter of 4 mm. However, this low percentage may indicate involuntary incorporation during the preparation of the paste.

The 8th millennium BC (Phase 2 of the Holocene of Ounjougou)

The next part of the Holocene sequence is documented at two principal sites – the Ravin du Hibou and Damatoumou. The archaeological layers are chronologically situated by an OSL date and 7 radiocarbon dates (8,000-7,000 cal BC). The lithic industry is characterized by reduction of quartz cobbles by unidirectional, bidirectional, multidirectional, peripheral and bipolar on anvil reduction techniques. The assemblage is composed mainly of microlithic tools: borers, backed points, notches, denticulates, sidescrapers, retouched flakes and geometric microliths.

The next part of the Holocene sequence is documented at two principal sites – the Ravin du Hibou and Damatoumou. The archaeological layers are chronologically situated by an OSL date and 7 radiocarbon dates (8,000-7,000 cal BC). The lithic industry is characterized by reduction of quartz cobbles by unidirectional, bidirectional, multidirectional, peripheral and bipolar on anvil reduction techniques. The assemblage is composed mainly of microlithic tools: borers, backed points, notches, denticulates, sidescrapers, retouched flakes and geometric microliths.

West African and Saharan context

The ceramics and grinding material from phases 1 and 2 at Ounjougou are the earliest evidence of this type currently known in sub-Saharan Africa. In our present state of knowledge, this pottery at Ounjougou may have resulted from a center of invention in the current Sahelo-Sudanian zone with exportation somewhat later toward the Central Sahara, where it is known from the 9th millennium BC. The pottery types at Tagalagal in Niger, the earliest known for this region, were already quite diversified when they first appeared, perhaps confirming the adoption of the use of pottery from another place of origin. The lithic industry of phases 1 and 2 is characterized by southern affinities, including quartz microliths using bipolar reduction on anvil proper to the "sub-Saharan microlithic technocomplex" defined by K. MacDonald, except for the bifacial armatures which are only found in the north, in the Saharan zone, at slightly younger sites. A cultural influx from the southeastern sub-Saharan zone toward the Sahara could explain the spread of quartz microlithic industries across West Africa. First observed in Cameroon at Shum Laka (30,600-29,000 BC), we next find them in the Ivory Coast at Bingerville (14,100-13,400 BC), in Nigeria at Iwo Eleru (11,460-11,050 BC) and finally at Ounjougou (phase 1: 10th mill. BC).


- Eric Huysecom

http://www.ounjougou.org/sec_arc/arc_main.php?lang=en&sec=arc&sous_sec=neo&art=neo&art_titre=ancien


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Son of Ra
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^^Thanks for posting that.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

No he doesn't group

that's a lie

You're the lie! LOL He lists people from fairest to darkest among the northern nations from northernmost (Germanics) to southernmost (Syrians) then he goes to name people from darkest to lightest among the southern nations.

quote:
Of these ethnicities he does not use the same adjective consistently.
There is no such consistent pattern and no two part division.

A word for 'light' or 'white' is not even used

You inserted 'black race' and 'white race'.

My first reply above answers it. Of course he does not outright say light colored peoples and dark colored peoples but he lists two groups in different orders. Such orders correspond to the Greco-Roman world view which you are obviously totally oblivious of. Again, I suggest you read the myth of Phaeton.

quote:
such terms have societal baggage. You wanted it.

Now to save face after having done that you claim you meant it in some other way.

The simple fact is that gentes means nations and that is made clear by national names he mentions, you dumb fvck.

LOL YOU are the dumb f*ck who doesn't know a lick of Latin! [Big Grin] Gente in its literal meaning is 'race' or ethnic group and not necessarily a nation state. The word for nation in Latin is natio. Of course when Manilius uses gente there is no biological appellation since race in its original definition has such.

quote:
And the essential point is that Manilus does not combine the word gentes with another word to mean "the black gentes" and does not correspondingly combine the word gentes with a word meaning "the white gentes".
Actually in the very beginning of his second grouping when he says Aethiopes stain the world with their darkest figures imbuing the 'hominum gentes' i.e. human races. Then he goes on to Indians who are less sun burnt, then Egyptians etc.

quote:
You fvcked up. You read somebody's interpretation that this was a list of the black races and a list of the white races.
Same thing black nations and white nations only problem is that he did not put a stereotype skin color word or darkness/lightness word next to "nation"

LOL YOU been f*cked up in the brains. We all know you are too blackphobic to realize the Greeks and Romans including Manilius grouped Egyptians with other southern peoples as sunburned or BLACK.

quote:
The terms 'black' and 'white' are the most racial terms there are.
And you choose these words and you choose the word 'race' because you believe in the concept when it's convenient. When it's not convenient you say it doesn't exist.

In correct. I never said anything about a black race and a white race for there is no such thing as biological race. I merely pointed out the FACT that Manilius did group light ethnicities i.e. 'races' into one group and dark ones in another. I never said there was a biological basis to it only that he apparently made these groupings.

quote:
people who don't believe in race don't use the terms 'black', 'white' and yellow for people and they would not choose to use the word 'race' when nation could be used. You are a fraudster.
I am merely translating and interpreting what Manilius said, b|tch. Don't kill the messenger. [Embarrassed]

quote:
Your Afrocentric mission you have stated is that scientists should 'admit the Egyptians were black'.
LOL So now I'm 'Afrocentric'! [Big Grin] My only mission is TRUTH. And the truth is the Egyptians should be acknowledged for what they were/are! You can't call Sub-Saharans black and then North Africans with the same color and features as something else. That is something YOU do in your futile and pathetic Eurocentric mission. Yet didn't you claim in your introduction in the very first page of this thread that you yourself are 'Afrocentric'??! LOL

quote:
You choose not to use the word 'dark' in that statement because that's not enough. You need the racial term 'black',
It was the same thing to the ancient authors. 'Dark', 'sunburnt', 'black', 'toasted'. These are all synonyms if you're dumb ass didn't know.

quote:
Then to protect yourself if anybody questions your choice of terms you say you meant 'dark' not anything else.

It's a game you play and one I have exposed numerous times.

No, b|tch. My answer is right above. Unlike YOU I play no games and am totally honest. We all know you're game is to play pretend black girl 'Afrocentric' when you're really a black-hating Euronut propaganda agent (slut) for Mathilda.

quote:
This is why I respect Clyde more if he says the Egyptians were black because he says it's racial.
People who don't believe in race would never use that word for people. To do so and claim to not believe in race is hypocritical.

No. You pretend to respect Clyde because he subscribes to outdated and erroneous notions. Thus he like other fringe Afrocentrists can be used like whipping boys that they are for you and Mathilda.

quote:
 -  -
I don't know what your spam of modern people including a modern mixed-looking Maghrebi has anything to do with the ancient peoples under discussion b|tch. Stop with the strawmen put up actual evidence for the discussion or nothing at all.

quote:
Messed up translation
I might as well translate it myself. LOL @ "French" there was no 'France' at that time and therefore no French. The people were the Galli or Celtic inhabitants of Gaul which included France among other countries.

quote:

German
French
Spanish
Roman
Greek
Syrian
Ethiopian
Indian
Egyptian
Mauretanian


^^^^ This is exactly the order the names appear in. It's not even in graduated order from light to dark

Yes you put the two groups together but leave out the context, lyinass b|tch.

From fairest to darkest: Germanics, Galli, Hispanes, Romans, Greeks, and Syrians, THEN..
From darkest to lightest: Ethiopians, Indians, Egyptians, Afori, and Mauretanians. The Syrians and Mauretanians converge in complexion around the 'Middle' i.e. Mediterranean.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

 -
Anyone took a look at her name Kem=Black + whatever sit means..a variation of Isis perhaps??..just saying!!

'Sit' means lady in Mdu-Neter (Egyptian language). Thus her name means 'Black Lady'. What's funny is that many Euronuts use this as evidence that Egyptians weren't black because Mentuhotep's Nubian wife is called 'Black Lady'. But then begs the question, why would a black girl even have the name 'Black Lady' in the first place? Note that there are many women in Europe whose names in various languages translates as 'White lady' or 'White one' of 'Fair lady' etc. Why would a European even have the name 'white'? The answer becomes evident when one realizes the symbolism behind the color. As I explained black was a sacred color representing divinity and rebirth in Egypt and in many African cultures the same way white represents good, purity, or even divinity in European cultures.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXNVpXB-wo

^^^In that video Ashra Kwesi states that Kush/Kemet is the daughter of Ethiopia. While all three are the granddaughters of the Congo @12:27...

What are you guys thoughts?

I think Kwesi is wrong and is, I hate to say it (even the term itself) 'Bantu-centric'. There seem to be some Africanist scholars with an agenda to make Bantu speakers of peoples of Central Africa primary to other African peoples and civilizations. [Embarrassed]
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXNVpXB-wo

^^^In that video Ashra Kwesi states that Kush/Kemet is the daughter of Ethiopia. While all three are the granddaughters of the Congo @12:27...

What are you guys thoughts?

I think Kwesi is wrong and is, I hate to say it (even the term itself) 'Bantu-centric'. There seem to be some Africanist scholars with an agenda to make Bantu speakers of peoples of Central Africa primary to other African peoples and civilizations. [Embarrassed]
Well I don't know about Central African people. But Bantu people of East Africa and Southern Africa most certainly did have civilizations.

Wasn't the Kongo Kingdom in a way advanced? I know it wasn't something comparable to Ancient Egypt or even the Mali empire. But I read some interesting things about the kingdom nonetheless.

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Firewall
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXNVpXB-wo

^^^In that video Ashra Kwesi states that Kush/Kemet is the daughter of Ethiopia. While all three are the granddaughters of the Congo @12:27...

What are you guys thoughts?

I think Kwesi is wrong and is, I hate to say it (even the term itself) 'Bantu-centric'. There seem to be some Africanist scholars with an agenda to make Bantu speakers of peoples of Central Africa primary to other African peoples and civilizations. [Embarrassed]
Well I don't know about Central African people. But Bantu people of East Africa and Southern Africa most certainly did have civilizations.

Wasn't the Kongo Kingdom in a way advanced? I know it wasn't something comparable to Ancient Egypt or even the Mali empire. But I read some interesting things about the kingdom nonetheless.

It think it was comparable to egypt, it was highly advanced.Some ways more advanced then egypt,and some way not has advanced.


The kingdom of kongo
 -

African Treasures
 -
17th century painting of the dutch painter Albert Eckhout showing two emissaries of the Kingdom of Kongo in Brazil holding the two main sources of wealth in west africa, an ivory tusk and a jewel box.

African Nobleman
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17th century painting of the dutch painter Albert Eckhout showing the nobleman Don Miguel de Castro from the Kingdom of Kongo during a commercial trip to the portuguese colony of Brazil

African King
 -
illustration showing the king Afonso I of Kongo, ruler of the Kingdom of Kongo in the first half of the 16th century. Afonso is best known for his vigorous attempt to convert Kongo to a Catholic country, by establishing the Roman Catholic Church in Kongo, providing for its financing from tax revenues, and creating schools. By 1516 there were over 1000 students in the royal school, and other schools were located in the provinces, eventually resulting in the development of a fully literate noble class.

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Firewall
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M'banza-Kongo

M'banza-Kongo was once the home of the Manikongo, the ruler of the Kingdom of Kongo, which at its peak reached from southern Africa's Atlantic coast to the Nkisi River.

The earliest documented kings referred to their city in their correspondence as "the city of Congo" (cidade de Congo), and the name of the city as Săo Salvador appears for the first time in the letters of Álvaro I (1568–1587) and was carried on by his successors. The name was changed back to "City of Kongo" (Mbanza Kongo) after Angolan independence in 1975.


When the Portuguese arrived in Kongo, Mbanza Kongo was already a large town, perhaps the largest in sub-equatorial Africa, and an early visitor of 1491 compared it in size to the Portuguese town of Évora. During the reign of Afonso I, stone buildings were added, including a palace and several churches. The town grew substantially as the kingdom of Kongo expanded and grew, and an ecclesiastical statement of the 1630s related that 4,000-5,000 baptisms were performed in the city and its immediate hinterland (presumably the valleys that surround it), which is consistent with an overall population of 100,000 people. Of these, perhaps 30,000 lived on the mountain and the remainder in the valleys around the city. Among its important buildings were some twelve churches, including Săo Salvador, as well as private chapels and oratories and an impressive two-story royal palace, the only such building in all of Kongo, according to the visitor Giovanni Francesco da Roma (1648).

The city was sacked several times during the civil wars that followed the battle of Mbwila (or Ulanga) in 1665, and was abandoned in 1678. It was reoccupied in 1705 by Dona Beatriz Kimpa Vita's followers and restored as Kongo's capital by King Pedro IV of Kongo in 1709. It was never again depopulated though its population fluctuated substantially during the eighteenth and nineteenth century.

M'banza Kongo is known for the ruins of its 16th century cathedral (built in 1549).


 -
The capital of the Kingdom of Kongo

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Son of Ra
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^^^Man thanks for the amazing post!!! To be honest I wonder why the Kongo Kingdom is so underrated??? Even civilizations in Africa are very underrated, but it seems Central African civilizations are the most underrated.
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Djehuti
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Here are maps showing many though not all the important kingdoms of African history. One may exclude Carthage or Merina as foreign extraction but still..

 -

 -

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Firewall
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I thought Merina was a mix of african and asian,and some think Carthage is more native then foreign,but i think it's more foreign.
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
I thought Merina was a mix of african and asian,and some think Carthage is more native then foreign,but i think it's more foreign.

Carthage is most definitely foreign.
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Brada-Anansi
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Son of Ra and Firewall don't be too sure about that for even before the Phoenicians leave the lavant to found Khart Haddast they were culturally and genetically linked to Africans mainly Nile valley folk like the Kemeties and Kushites.

 -  -
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001850

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=461
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004782
Might wanna clk those links see Xyyman and Zarahan and Swenet for the bio anthropology stuff.

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Brada-Anansi
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 -
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hist&action=display&thread=1379
For more on the Kingdom of the Kongo go here,including some really kool pics.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Son of Ra and Firewall don't be too sure about that for even before the Phoenicians leave the lavant to found Khart Haddast they were culturally and genetically linked to Africans mainly Nile valley folk like the Kemeties and Kushites.

 -  -
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001850

http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=bag&action=display&thread=461
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=004782
Might wanna clk those links see Xyyman and Zarahan and Swenet for the bio anthropology stuff.

Well on this show they did potray Hannibal as black...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3nRl9sGcpM

But I am still not too certain to claim the Phoenicians as native Africans. Has their been any DNA test on the remains of the Phoenicians?

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Brada-Anansi
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@ Son Of Ra
Mitochondrial DNA geneflow indicates preferred usage of the Levant Corridor over the Horn of Africa passageway
D. J. Rowold, J. R. Luis, M. C. Terreros, Rene J. Herrera
Look Inside Get Access
Abstract
Both the Levantine Corridor and the Horn of Africa route have figured prominently in early hominid migrations from Africa to Eurasia. To gauge the importance of these two African–Asian thoroughfares in the demic movements of modern man, we surveyed the mtDNA control region variation and coding polymorphisms of 739 individuals representing ten African and Middle Eastern populations. Two of these collections, Egypt and Yemen, are geographically close to the Levant and Horn of Africa, respectively. In this analysis, we uncover genetic evidence for the preferential use of the Levantine Corridor in the Upper Paleolithic to Neolithic dispersals of haplogroups H, J*, N1b, and T1, in contrast to an overwhelming preference in favor of the Horn of Africa for the intercontinental expansion of M1 during the Middle to Upper Paleolithic. Furthermore, we also observed a higher frequency of sub-Saharan mtDNA compared to NRY lineages in the Middle Eastern collections, a pattern also seen in previous studies. In short, the results of this study suggest that several migratory episodes of maternal lineages occurred across the African–Asian corridors since the first African exodus of modern Homo sapiens sapiens.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0132-7?LI=true#page-1
While this is not Phoenician specific it does establish that from the very earliest of times African population colonized the area and this goes for skull and bone anthropology as well see Natufians


The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form

Abstract
Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.short
But really Xyyman and Zarahan are much better at this than I am, see the cultural stuff that I bumped for you and Firewall on the Ancient Egypt side.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
I thought Merina was a mix of african and asian,and some think Carthage is more native then foreign,but i think it's more foreign.

Carthage is most definitely foreign.
Merina was the result of Malagasy from Indonesia, though there's evidence that Africans were present on the island as well. As for Carthage, it was a Phoenician colony, but the map happens to show all states and polities that were started IN Africa not necessarily by Africans though indigenous Africans were influential.

By the way, Carthage was later succeeded by the kingdom of Numidia which was began by indigenous Africans.

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Djehuti
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The Lyinass busted.
quote:
Originally posted [13 March, 2013 12:58 AM] by the lyinass:

If you ask around to the members only me and Clyde Winters are admitted Afrocentrics...

quote:
Originally posted [21 March, 2013 02:12 AM] by the lyinass:

Your Afrocentric mission you have stated is that scientists should 'admit the Egyptians were black'.

In your frustration, in your second post above you accuse me of having an Afrocentric mission (even though I don't). Yet you said in your initial post that you are an admitted Afrocentric.

So tell us lyinass, are you Afrocentric or do you get fed up by Afrocentrics?? LOL [Big Grin]

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Brada-Anansi
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 -
DJ and others see the part in yellow including the Levant where the Phoenicians hang-out that's really Africa geographically although generally considered conceded territory even by Africans themselves,but early on African culture pre-dominated and significant biologically African presence is noted above,


In 1928, Charles Lambert had uncovered, during a preliminary investigation at el- Wad, the first prehistoric art object discovered in the Near East, a finely carved bone animal head. He had also discovered human, later identified as Natufian, burials. - Courtesy of the University of Cambridge, the department of archeology.

The "Natufians", the reputed "first farmers" of the Neolithic "Near East", had gone from being regarded as mere "cannibals" by observers of the day shortly after being uncovered in the late 1920s to becoming widely recognized as "pioneers" of the farming economy that took hold in the Neolithic era and was subsequently swept into Europe.

Any observant reader will be hard-pressed to not see the change in attitude about the cultural identity of these "first farmers" from the years when folks of the 20th century were just starting to get to know who they were, at which time all these 20th century observers had available to them were the human remains and a few artifacts here and there, to the ensuing periods when the role of the would-be farmers began unfolding with increased vigor and getting wider recognition within academia. This can perhaps be amply demonstrated through the glimpse of news reports/articles that first came out when news of the discovery of "Natufian" remains reached the media, and subsequent publications by several authors in the ensuing years of the 20th century; take for example the following extracts from a 1932 New York Times publication:

BONES OF CANNIBALS: A PALESTINE RIDDLE
Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
New York Times 1857; Aug 4, 1932; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2003)
pg. 21

ATE BODIES OF ENEMIES
Men, Short of Stature, Burned Bones of Dead After Burial, London Session Hears.

TEETH OF WOMEN DRAWN
Linking relics to Burnt Skeletons from Ur scientist speculate an old cremation custom.

Wireless to NEW YORK TIMES London Aug. 3

Seven or eight thousand years ago in what geologist call modern times a race of negroid cannibals lived In Palestine, burned the bones of their dead after burial, and devoured the bodies of their enemies.

Skulls and thighbones of this race were unearthed within the last four years, first at Shukbah near Jerusalem and later in caves at Mount Carmel, and because they puzzled the excavators who found them they received the new name “Natufians.”

Today the first authoritative account of them was given by Sir Arthur Keith to the congress of Prehistoric and Protohistoric Sciences and showed them to be one of the greatest riddles of archaeology.

They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat- noses and long large heads.
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.jp/2010/09/trivia-on-natufians.html

The age before Dna mapping can be excused for using the term Negroid and trying to connect them to certain populations below the Sahara, but these are the people who made-up part of the later Phoenicians long before there was a Phoenicia. and later direct Kemetic control of the area,using various troops of different ethnicity from the deep south of Kemet to pacify the Levant and bring them to heel.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
@ Son Of Ra
Mitochondrial DNA geneflow indicates preferred usage of the Levant Corridor over the Horn of Africa passageway
D. J. Rowold, J. R. Luis, M. C. Terreros, Rene J. Herrera
Look Inside Get Access
Abstract
Both the Levantine Corridor and the Horn of Africa route have figured prominently in early hominid migrations from Africa to Eurasia. To gauge the importance of these two African–Asian thoroughfares in the demic movements of modern man, we surveyed the mtDNA control region variation and coding polymorphisms of 739 individuals representing ten African and Middle Eastern populations. Two of these collections, Egypt and Yemen, are geographically close to the Levant and Horn of Africa, respectively. In this analysis, we uncover genetic evidence for the preferential use of the Levantine Corridor in the Upper Paleolithic to Neolithic dispersals of haplogroups H, J*, N1b, and T1, in contrast to an overwhelming preference in favor of the Horn of Africa for the intercontinental expansion of M1 during the Middle to Upper Paleolithic. Furthermore, we also observed a higher frequency of sub-Saharan mtDNA compared to NRY lineages in the Middle Eastern collections, a pattern also seen in previous studies. In short, the results of this study suggest that several migratory episodes of maternal lineages occurred across the African–Asian corridors since the first African exodus of modern Homo sapiens sapiens.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0132-7?LI=true#page-1
While this is not Phoenician specific it does establish that from the very earliest of times African population colonized the area and this goes for skull and bone anthropology as well see Natufians


The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form

Abstract
Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.short
But really Xyyman and Zarahan are much better at this than I am, see the cultural stuff that I bumped for you and Firewall on the Ancient Egypt side.

Thanks.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
I thought Merina was a mix of african and asian,and some think Carthage is more native then foreign,but i think it's more foreign.

Carthage is most definitely foreign.
Merina was the result of Malagasy from Indonesia, though there's evidence that Africans were present on the island as well. As for Carthage, it was a Phoenician colony, but the map happens to show all states and polities that were started IN Africa not necessarily by Africans though indigenous Africans were influential.

By the way, Carthage was later succeeded by the kingdom of Numidia which was began by indigenous Africans.

Interesting...I heard of the Kingdom of Numidia.
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mena7
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Ashra Kwesi is a great Kemitologist, researcher and teacher.He is the student of Scholar Yosef Ben Jochanan.Ashra Kwesi organise historical tour to Egypt, Nubia and Ethiopia. Ashra Kwesi produced the greatest videos on Ancient Egyptian history and religion.In a fair world Ashra Kwesi videos would have been playing in the History Channel and discovery Channel but they will rather play science fiction documentary like Ancient Alien.

I think Ashra Kwesi is saying in the youtube video that the Twa people of the Kongo created Ethiopia, Kush and Kemet. [Smile]

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As for biodiversity. Its not that close to stormfront...then again I wouldnt know too much and I usually only post on the African related subjects.

Actually it is...Its more like a toned down Stormfront. Just look at some of the post from this thread.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/40815-Negroids-have-not-evolved

Even some of the mods on that site are EUrocentrics. That's one reason why I stopped going on that site.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As for biodiversity. Its not that close to stormfront...then again I wouldnt know too much and I usually only post on the African related subjects.

Actually it is...Its more like a toned down Stormfront. Just look at some of the post from this thread.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/40815-Negroids-have-not-evolved

Even some of the mods on that site are EUrocentrics. That's one reason why I stopped going on that site.

it's a good site because there are a lot of people on it including afrocentrics or Africanists the do frontline race battle on some threads and they also have a lot of their own threads where the white supremacist types don't post on because they aren't interested in some topics. there are plenty of those

And here at Egyptsearch there is a white supremacist who comes around. there used to be two to three at a time.

But there's also Egyptsearch Reloaded
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi
which has some posters from here and it was started by somebody from here, Brada Over there they don't have white supremacists everybody is usually an Africanist of some kind.
But sometimes it gets boring over there and people come here for the boxing. I'm the current champion. The lioness has had many meals here.

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Djehuti
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^ LOL @ lyinass claiming 'Biodiversity' to be a "good site". It's good to her because she is one of those Euronuts and then she talks about "frontline race battle"! LOL That's the problem with Biodiversity-- it gets bogged down by the racial crap that the real info and data or valid interpretations thereof get lost. Even Son of Ra knows that.
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the lioness,
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^^^^ stop the BS while beyoku aka four, Game Theory aka Charlie Bass and Doc Scientia are duking with Crimson Guard and Racial Reality at Forum Biodiversity, even zarahan was there, you're here in numerous replies to Anglo_P, what a joke
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Djehuti
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^ LOL The only one spouting BS is YOU. First of all, I used to go on Biodiversity years before you've even heard of it when it had some decency. Second, my replies to Anglo-Idiot are nothing more than mockery of his idiocy and not some "frontline race battle". There is nothing to battle when it comes to retards like Anglo-Idiot. I used to engage 'Racial Reality' as well when he trolled in this forum as Evil-Euro which is more like Stupid-Euro. Instead of engaging idiots, I prefer to have logical discussions with intelligent folk about FACTS which is something we used to do all the time in Egyptsearch before trolls like them and YOU even reared up.

And we know you are a passive-aggressive Euronut in disguise troll agent of Mathilda as well b|tch, so don't play! [Embarrassed]

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Asar Imhotep:
As for biodiversity. Its not that close to stormfront...then again I wouldnt know too much and I usually only post on the African related subjects.

Actually it is...Its more like a toned down Stormfront. Just look at some of the post from this thread.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/40815-Negroids-have-not-evolved

Even some of the mods on that site are EUrocentrics. That's one reason why I stopped going on that site.

it's a good site because there are a lot of people on it including afrocentrics or Africanists the do frontline race battle on some threads and they also have a lot of their own threads where the white supremacist types don't post on because they aren't interested in some topics. there are plenty of those

And here at Egyptsearch there is a white supremacist who comes around. there used to be two to three at a time.

But there's also Egyptsearch Reloaded
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/index.cgi
which has some posters from here and it was started by somebody from here, Brada Over there they don't have white supremacists everybody is usually an Africanist of some kind.
But sometimes it gets boring over there and people come here for the boxing. I'm the current champion. The lioness has had many meals here.

Then I challenges you for your title! Almighty Lioness! [Razz] Lol.


Anyways...I personally do not think Biodiversity forum is a good site, especially if you are interested in things 'African'. If you even try to bring up anything positive about Africa then the people would jump on you.

On that site its like people do not want to hear anything about Africa, whether its genetics, history, people,etc. They are not only bias against Africans but also Indians and Asians.

Like Djehuti said, it mostly comes down to racial crap even people STILL using outdated terms such as Caucasoid, Negroid and Mongoloid. And that site is mostly suppose to be about genetics. That is one of the things that really grind my gear about Biodiversity. They should be better than that...

Most of if not all the topics on that site are about race or racial pride. I even believe some people from Stormfront post on that site.

I know their are some people from Egyptsearch on post on their like beyoku, Game Theory and Doc Scientia. I am not trying to disrespect these guys, they are smart guys smarter than me. But...I don't really see them really trying to attack and destroy all the Eurocentric arguments on the site or any of the people who defend Africa. It seems they don't try their best to educate the people on Biodiversity. Again not trying to disrespect them.

As for Egyptsearch reloaded, that's an okay site.

Anyways Son of Ra will be coming for your title and he will not underestimate you. Gods>Lions. [Smile]

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