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Author Topic: Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
BrandonP
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I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.

To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:

 -

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Son of Ra
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Interesting.

I may PM you.

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the lioness,
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please post a little more info from this, something with numerical ratios mentioned or charted on a scale that's not dendogram


Abstract
The Lower Nubian Epipaleolithic site of Jebel Sahaba (Sudan) was discovered in 1962. From 1962–1966, a total of 58 intentionally-buried skeletons were uncovered at the site. Diagnostic microliths indicative of the Qadan industry as well as the site's geology suggest an age of 14–12 ka for these burials. In this study, the body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample are compared to those of a large (max N = 731) sample of recent human skeletons from Europe, Africa, and circumpolar North America, as well as to terminal Pleistocene “Iberomaurusian” skeletons from the Algerian sites of Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and the later Capsian-associated Ain Dokhara specimen, as well as Natufian skeletons from the southern Levantine site of El Wad.Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples. Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.




 -

Jebel Sahaba Sudan
around 13,140 to 14,340 years old.

Ain Dokhara
Capsian


Afalou
Iberomaurusian

El Wad ( Natufian)
southern Levantine

^^^^ Interesting that Ain Dokhara
Capsian cluster with Africans yet they came later in the Maghreb than the Mechta-Afalou Iberomaurusian who cluster with Alaskan Eskimo groups, Koniag, Ipiutak an Tigara.
It seems surprising.
-but not so much in light of the study>
Saami and Berbers--an unexpected mitochondrial DNA link.
Achilli et al
Both groups have haplotypes U (in particular, U5b) in common. However a small fraction of the Saami 5% of the Saami haplogroup diversity are also haplogroup D (D5) and Z, both of which are seen in Asian populations, possible Alakan crossover genetically.
But regardless scandinavian Sami and Eskimo groups are cold adpated and have very short limb ratios. The Sami are not represented in the table however the
Afalou Iberomaurusians are clustering with Eskimo groups in terms of limb ratios according to this chart

That is why if one is looking for a more African related population the Capsian who came after the Iberomaurusians are who should be looked at if you are looking for a more African affinity to modern Mahgrebian groups (assuming that there is continuity)

 -

Green:
Afalou
Iberomaurusian
-cluster with Eskimo limb ratios
___________________

Light Blue
Ain Dokhara
Capsian
-cluster with Egypt/African American/Pygmy limb ratios


________________________________________________

Another thing, pygmy limb ratios. What are they? What do they average? Obviously genetically they have affinity with African groups-although they do have distnct gentic features.
But strictly going by limb ratios many pygmies appears to have very long torsos. In addition I have read theorizing that their small stature may indicate Bergman's rule
Regardless on the dendogram they cluster on the dendogram with African Americans.
I would like to see their average ratios.

I also observe once again in this Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba, at least in this dendogram a lack of modern Near Eastern, Anatolian comparisions or Southern European.

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xyyman
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Why don't you upload it at academia.edu or soemthing? What size is the file? Even at ESR.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.

To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:

 -

Interesting, I suppose. Not surprised really. Thanks for posting.
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Djehuti
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Are these findings based on limb length proportions or limb shape?? I find it interesting that the Ain Dokhara (Capsian) sample grouped with Africans overall but the Afalou (Oranian) sample clustered with Paleo-Siberian folks like Inuit and Yupik.

I'll IM you later.

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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.

How about posting a link here where everybody, who is interested that is, can readily download the paper, i.e. instant access as opposed to going through the trouble of PMing you, then to have you e-mail it?

Alas, if for some reason this is not possible, inform me so, and I'll go about getting it from you through the more tedious PM process.

To Whomever it applies:

I have already gone through Trenton's "Body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample", but subsequently lost the paper when my computer crashed earlier in the year. If anyone happens to have an electronic copy, let me know. Thanx

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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

 -

If this is an allusion to limb proportions, then it is rather odd that the San fall right within the tropical African group, when previous research has implicated them in the neighborhood of the sub-tropical average range. Then again, that could depend on the local-origin and sample size of the San test-subjects, which may not necessarily be homogeneous across all San territory.

On the other hand, if it is regarding a body shape measure, well Holliday himself has been on the record, pointing to the outlier orientation of the pygmies where body linearity was concerned. This dendrogram would seem to be at odds with that observation.

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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Abstract
The Lower Nubian Epipaleolithic site of Jebel Sahaba (Sudan) was discovered in 1962. From 1962–1966, a total of 58 intentionally-buried skeletons were uncovered at the site. Diagnostic microliths indicative of the Qadan industry as well as the site's geology suggest an age of 14–12 ka for these burials. In this study, the body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample are compared to those of a large (max N = 731) sample of recent human skeletons from Europe, Africa, and circumpolar North America, as well as to terminal Pleistocene “Iberomaurusian” skeletons from the Algerian sites of Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and the later Capsian-associated Ain Dokhara specimen, as well as Natufian skeletons from the southern Levantine site of El Wad. Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples. Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.

The abstract could prove to be misleading, if not carefully approached. I got a glimpse of this possibility when I went through the earlier publication by Trenton, on the Jebel Sahaba body proportions. If memory serves me correctly [could be fuzzy, hence my need to revisit the now lost paper], the Mesolithic north African specimens assumed their own clustering that could be delineated from those of other specimens, particularly the more recent ones, while there was noticeable overlap between specimens, even between recent tropical African and recent European samples. In simple terms, there is more here than meets the eye of a potential reader.

Now dissecting parts of the Abstract:

One segment says that...

Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples.

But then notes that...

Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples.

Upon reading this, one might get the gratuitous impression that Natufian and northwest African "Ibero-Maurusian" series are similar, but delineated from the Jebel Sahaba series. Not so, when other reports are taken into account; take for instance, the following:

The African Mesolithic skulls are basically
dolichocranic
(cranial index = 72.9
for Wadi Halfa, 70.3 for site 117, 74.5 for
Taforalt, and 74.6 for Afalou) while Ohalo I1
H2 is at the upper limit of mesocrany
(79.4).


The differences in calvaria shape are most
clearly demonstrated by the fronto/parietal
index
: 72.4 for Ohalo I1 H2 and a mean value
of 68.0 for Afalou.


Even the curvature of the frontal bone of the crania is similar between the Mesolithic north African series, whilst distinct from a specimen from the Levant:

The frontal curvature index (84.8) is much lower than any of the North African populations: Taforalt = 88.3 (Ferembach, 1962), Nubia 117 = 88.0 (Anderson, 19681, Afalou = 87.6 (Briggs, 1955). - Hershkovitz et al. 1995

Furthermore, as another example...

The Ohalo orbits are extremely narrow (orbital index = 67.4) compared to any of the North African populations (orbital index values range from 71.1 at Jebel Sahaba 117 and Taforalt to 74.6 at Afalou). The interorbital region is wide, at 25.3 mm: the maximum width in the North African material is only 24.5 mm (Afalou; Briggs, 1955).

The Mesolithic Maghrebi series clearly have more in common with the Jebel Sahaba here, than they do with the Levantine Ohalo specimen.

Arensburg et al. 1995 also found that the Mesolithic Maghreb series had larger limb proportions than the Natufians; for instance, their femur size was larger comparatively. The Afalou series crural index reportedly ranged from 82.4 to 87.1, well within the tropical African range, yet the Taforalt series reported an even higher range...

The use of the African regression formulae is based on the crural indices of the associated Afalou skeletons, which range from 82.4 to 87.1. Nevertheless if the European regression formulae are applied, the Taforalt male mean is 179.4 cm (range : 174.3 - 182.4 cm), the Taforalt female mean is 166.0 cm (range : 150.9 - 171.1 cm), the Afalou male mean is 176.0 cm (range : 165.6 - 179.7 cm), and the Afalou female mean 167.5 cm (range :163.8 - 176.9 cm).

Hershkovitz et al.'s readings put the pooled EpiPaleolithic north African series well within the tropical African ranges; an average of 78 for the brachial index, and an average of 85 for the crural!

Like Robert Franciscus (1999) and Hershkovitz et al. (1995), Arensburg et al. found that the Mesolithic Maghreb series generally have wider nasal width than the Levantine groups.

While the Mesolithic Maghreb series differ among themselves in the size of the clavicle, they are yet distinct from the Levantine specimens:

According to Boule and Vallois 12, the mean size of the clavicle in this group is 169.6 mm, with a range of 155.0 - 185.0 mm for 10 males. These measurements exceed those of Taforalt (mean = 159.3 mm for 11 males, range : 151.0 - 168.0; 12 females mean = 143.7 mm, range : 129.0 - 153.0) 13. Only six Natufian clavicles could be measured, giving dimensions between 136.0 and 148.0 mm14. The Israel Ohalo Upper Palaeolithic clavicle is 148.0 mm long. - Arensburg et al. (1995)

Back to Trenton's abstract:

Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.

As a matter of fact, the Mesolithic Maghebi series had nearly identical nasal breadths to the recent Bantu sample, by Franciscus' reading, which I had posted several times in recent discussions. The Bantu was the closest recent group to the Mesolithic North African series than any other recent group compared in that analysis. Franciscus' reading is similar to those reported by Arensburg et al. (1995), which turned out to be wider than that obtained for the Natufian series, while Hershkovitz et al.'s measurements also implicate wider noses in the Mesolithic north African groups than the Levantine Ohalo. Hence, Trenton's reference may have the effect of misleading a reader who is not familiar with these reports.

quote:
^^^^ Interesting that Ain Dokhara
Capsian cluster with Africans yet they came later in the Maghreb than the Mechta-Afalou Iberomaurusian who cluster with Alaskan Eskimo groups, Koniag, Ipiutak an Tigara.

Again, clarity on the traits under study is warranted, but it should be noted that the Afalou series have generally been found to have similar or close attributes with the Taforalt series, even though there are certainly peculiarities [in trends] respective to each series; as such, they have generally been pooled as a composite group, and have been found to have clearly distinct body proportions from their contemporaries like the Natufians, or even other Levantine types, like the Ohalo II H2 specimen possibly represents. How so, one might ask? The Mesolithic Maghreb series lean more towards the tropical Africans, when limb proportions are considered. Against such a backdrop, I'd caution the prospect of the Afalou clustering with the likes of Alaskan groups, which tend to be fairly "cold-adapted" by many accounts, in a limb proportions comparison.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
If this is an allusion to limb proportions, then it is rather odd that the San fall right within the tropical African group

Were you in the know, you would have known that the description below the dendrogram is inconsistent with it being about limb proportions. You probably thought you were making an astute observation, but it only shows that you're in denial and desperately leeching onto a sinking ship.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
On the other hand, if it is regarding a body shape measure, well Holliday himself has been on the record, pointing to the outlier orientation of the pygmies where body linearity was concerned.

Other than your silly and obsolete observation about San limb data, your comment about pygmies doesn't make sense either. Pygmies have always clustered in the vicinity of Ancient Egyptians in Holiday's work. There is nothing out of the ordinary about their position in this dendrogram. You're just disgruntled now that hard data from the paper shows how much your belief in the tropical nature of the bodyplans of the Ibero-Maurusians is exactly that--an emotion based delusion.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I have already gone through Trenton's "Body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample", but subsequently lost the paper when my computer crashed earlier in the year.

Please inform us about this paper you're referring to. What are the full specifics of the paper? Publication date, journal, etc.

quote:
Upon reading this, one might get the gratuitous impression that Natufian and northwest African "Ibero-Maurusian" series are similar, but delineated from the Jebel Sahaba series. Not so, when other reports are taken into account; take for instance, the following:
Other than the fact that it doesn't bespeak sense to attempt to juxtapose bodyplan related data with (isolated) cranio-metric data, you're not being truthful. What you're not telling everyone is that the Afalou sample included individuals with brachycephaly, and I quote:

''But brachycephalism was not an unknown characteristic in Algeria in the Epipalaeolithic period, for a small number of brachycephalic individuals have been found at Afalou and Columnata''
--Physical Anthropology of European Populations, 1980, p259

The same can be said of your other comparisons; you're comparing population averages with a single specimen, without having taken into account whether the Ohalo falls within the range of the Ibero-Maurusian group. In addition, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, as you're clumsily presenting your excerpts as 'Natufian vs Ibero-Maurusian', even though the Ohalo II specimen isn't even Natufian. Brings to mind your earlier confused misrepresentation of nasal breadth data as ''nasal index''.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Other than the fact that it doesn't bespeak sense to attempt to juxtapose bodyplan related data with (isolated) cranio-metric data, you're not being truthful. What you're not telling everyone is that the Afalou sample included individuals with brachycephaly, and I quote:

''But brachycephalism was not an unknown characteristic in Algeria in the Epipalaeolithic period, for a small number of brachycephalic individuals have been found at Afalou and Columnata''
--Physical Anthropology of European Populations, 1980, p259

The same can be said of your other comparisons; you're comparing population averages with a single specimen, without having taken into account whether the Ohalo falls within the range of the Ibero-Maurusian group. In addition, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, as you're clumsily presenting your excerpts as 'Natufian vs Ibero-Maurusian', even though the Ohalo II specimen isn't even Natufian. Brings to mind your earlier confused misrepresentation of nasal breadth data as ''nasal index''. [/QB]

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

^^^^ Interesting that Ain Dokhara
Capsian cluster with Africans yet they came later in the Maghreb than the Mechta-Afalou Iberomaurusian who cluster with Alaskan Eskimo groups, Koniag, Ipiutak an Tigara.

Again, clarity on the traits under study is warranted, but it should be noted that the Afalou series have generally been found to have similar or close attributes with the Taforalt series, even though there are certainly peculiarities [in trends] respective to each series; as such, they have generally been pooled as a composite group, and have been found to have clearly distinct body proportions from their contemporaries like the Natufians, or even other Levantine types, like the Ohalo II H2 specimen possibly represents. How so, one might ask? The Mesolithic Maghreb series lean more towards the tropical Africans, when limb proportions are considered. Against such a backdrop, I'd caution the prospect of the Afalou clustering with the likes of Alaskan groups, which tend to be fairly "cold-adapted" by many accounts, in a limb proportions comparison.
yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also
brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)


Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.


However there is a 2000 year or more gap in the archaeological record between any green period hunter forager such as the Iberomaurusian or Capsians and modern Maghrebians although some continuity is possible.

Some of this is provisional as per this article of now because at this point it appears that Truthcentric is the only one who has read the whole article so far.

And limb ratios for certain groups can be hard to find or not well researched. San for one I'm not sure about. By well researched I mean a decent sample with raw data numerical indices recorded

note: Explorer seem to have quoted some things from>

http://www.academia.edu/431095/Skeletal_robusticity_in_the_Epipalaeolithic_of_North_Africa_and_the_Levant

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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
If this is an allusion to limb proportions, then it is rather odd that the San fall right within the tropical African group

Were you in the know, you would have known that the description below the dendrogram is inconsistent with it being about limb proportions. You probably thought you were making an astute observation, but it only shows that you're in denial and desperately leeching onto a sinking ship.
Alright, butthead, humor me: How is the body shape determined! We know that you don't know what 'allusion' means; now let's see what you know about body shape.


quote:
Other than your silly and obsolete observation about San limb data
Your "updated different" observation of San limb data is?

And I must take it that you were blind as a bat when this was added:

"Then again, that could depend on the local-origin and sample size of the San test-subjects, which may not necessarily be homogeneous across all San territory."

quote:


your comment about pygmies doesn't make sense either. Pygmies have always clustered in the vicinity of Ancient Egyptians in Holiday's work.

It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - Holliday et al. (2009)

It must suck to be an asshole/you.

quote:
quote:
Upon reading this, one might get the gratuitous impression that Natufian and northwest African "Ibero-Maurusian" series are similar, but delineated from the Jebel Sahaba series. Not so, when other reports are taken into account; take for instance, the following:
Other than the fact that it doesn't bespeak sense to attempt to juxtapose bodyplan related data with (isolated) cranio-metric data, you're not being truthful.
Ask a kindergartener to tell you what "other reports" means. While at it, get a lesson on how to read the remainder of a post.
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Explorador
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Lioness, I'm not sure why you are quoting me and swenet simultaneously, but let's talk about the following...

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also
brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)

I'm to take it, lioness, that you are not yet acquainted with the idea of trends in cranio-metry? Reference was made to the average pattern of the north African crania, which as the data shows, were well within similar ranges, from the Taforalt to the Jebel Sahaba.

As for your "back-migration" theory, mind telling me the origin point of this migration, for starters, and then the timeframe. I get a lot of non-responses on this sort of request; perhaps you'll prove to be different!

quote:

Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.

You are implying that the Epipaleolithic Maghreb series don't sport "tropical limb ratios", notwithstanding posts to the contrary?

PS: If I'm not mistaken, a single Capsian specimen was considered for the analysis...at least seems to be the case in the dendogram posted in the intro post.

quote:


Some of this is provisional as per this article of now because at this point it appears that Truthcentric is the only one who has read the whole article so far.

Granted this is a newer publication, but I have a hunch that it essentially piggybacks on the earlier publication around the Jebel Sahaba remains, which I'd read. Meaning, there will be a substantial amount of reiteration.

quote:
note: Explorer seem to have quoted some things from>

http://www.academia.edu/431095/Skeletal_robusticity_in_the_Epipalaeolithic_of_North_Africa_and_the_Levant

And if you have learnt anything remotely from that paper, you would have come to the realization that your insinuation about the Mesolithic Maghrebi series not having attributes of "tropical limb ratios" is not grounded on reality, right?
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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

The same can be said of your other comparisons; you're comparing population averages with a single specimen, without having taken into account whether the Ohalo falls within the range of the Ibero-Maurusian group. In addition, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, as you're clumsily presenting your excerpts as 'Natufian vs Ibero-Maurusian', even though the Ohalo II specimen isn't even Natufian.

How about the Ohalo specimen being thrown into the mix, because it is an upper Paleolithic Levantine specimen, and could prove insightful in demonstrating that there is a general trend in differentiation between the Mesolithic north African series and counterparts from the Levant? That obviously did not cross your mind.

As for comparing this specimen with a series from the Maghreb, well, there just isn't enough of them Ohalo II remains; there is not much else we can do about that, now can we, other than treat the Ohalo as a possible window into the community from which it came, as is done with the case of the Nazlet Khater specimen, or the "Old Man Cro-Magnon". You are really new at this sort of thing, aren't you.


The morphological continuity for some 10,000 years between
Upper Palaeolithic remains (Nahal Ein Gev, Ohalo) and the
Natufian population
of the Levant is on indication of a local
origin and development of the latter population, despite
changes in patterns of life, diet and environment.
- Arensburg et al. (1995)

Perhaps this in its own way reiterates the point of comparing the Maghreb series with the Ohalo II remain(s).

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Lioness:
yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also
brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)

Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs. Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians. Their crural and brachial index are at 85.5% and 77.5 respectively per Holiday 1997. Its simply a pleisiomorphic trait from their Upper Palaeolithic ancestors, and ultimate from Africans. What you want to look at is their bodyplan in its entirety or their absolute limb length, both of which are unlikely to retain a plesiomorphic state for as long as limb proportions.

Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
--Holiday, 1999

quote:
Originally posted by Lioness:
Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.

Caution is advised here. Ain Dokhara is just a single specimen. I wouldn't be surprised if some European or Ibero-Maurusian sample diverged in the African direction as well. In fact, what I could make out from the blurred readcube rendering of the paper is that at least one Afalou specimen clustered with the North Africans. We're talking populations with all their variations, not isolated individuals. There is also the issue of whether the introduction of the Neolithic tradition from the Sudan area influenced the Capsians biologically.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Alright, butthead, humor me: How is the body shape determined! We know that you don't know what 'allusion' means; now let's see what you know about body shape.

You're lying again I see. There is nothing in my post that suggests I misinterpreted your post. As for the your gaping stupidity where post-cranial analysis is concerned, if you knew anything about bodyplan research and Holiday's work it would have occurred to you that Holiday's reference to ''log shape data'' in that dendrogram description negates your uneducated speculation about whether the dendrogram refers to limb proportions.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Your "updated different" observation of San limb data is?

I see you're too confused to understand that you're talking gobbledygook right now, so I won't bother telling you that no disagreement on my part was expressed about your random invocation of San limb proportions. I will, however, tell you that you're a troll and that you need to start addressing what I said, rather than talking out the side of your neck.

quote:
It must suck to be an asshole/you.
Unlike your uneducated troll face I actually have the paper. There are two dendrograms from that paper, prove that either one of them doesn't depict Egypt as among the Pygmy sample's closest neighbours. That excerpt doesn't even deny the fact that Pygmies have always clustered with Dynastic Egyptians in Holiday's research, it just says that in that particular analysis Pygmies came out on the other end of 'linearity', not that Egyptians and African Americans aren't near the other side of that border. Uneducated trolls always talk smack but never have anything to back it up.

quote:
Ask a kindergartener to tell you what "other reports" means. While at it, get a lesson on how to read the remainder of a post.
You're lying again. Nothing in my posts about your retarded attempt to juxtapose cranio-metric data with bodyplan data suggest that I misinterpreted ''other reports''.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How about the Ohalo specimen being thrown into the mix, because it is an upper Paleolithic Levantine specimen, and could prove insightful in demonstrating that there is a general trend in differentiation between the Mesolithic north African series and counterparts from the Levant? That obviously did not cross your mind.

Stop lying already. You habitually misrepresent your data, like with the your ''nasal index'' data, and you got called out for it. Contrary to your false presentation of Ohalo II as such, the specimen is not Natufian.
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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How about posting a link here where everybody, who is interested that is, can readily download the paper, i.e. instant access as opposed to going through the trouble of PMing you, then to have you e-mail it?

I didn't think there was a place on the Internet where this paper was available for download to the public outside of UCSD.

Nonetheless, here is where I got it from:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oa.2315/abstract

I don't know what the big deal is with the Ibero-Maurusians. They weren't important to the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization unless you count Carthage (a Phoenician colony).

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oa.2315/abstract

I don't know what the big deal is with the Ibero-Maurusians. They weren't important to the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization unless you count Carthage (a Phoenician colony). [/QB]

Ibero-Maurusian culture ended about 5000 years before Carthage began
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Sundjata
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How about posting a link here where everybody, who is interested that is, can readily download the paper, i.e. instant access as opposed to going through the trouble of PMing you, then to have you e-mail it?

I didn't think there was a place on the Internet where this paper was available for download to the public outside of UCSD.

It should be available to anyone with privileged access, either via subscription or affiliation with a qualified institution. I have access as well but would refrain from posting such articles publicly as not to compromise that privilege on the grounds of violating some sort of copyright or terms of use policy. Maybe pasting highlights as Evergreen used to be well known for will suffice.
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The Explorer wasn't talking about journal access. He was requesting that Truth upload the paper on some filesharing site (not realizing that not everyone is a member of such a site), and put his neck on the line, just so Explorer could have one-click access.

Goes to show what an inconsiderate ass he is. He should be grateful someone even offered to send it to ES members in the first place. I wasn't going to say anything but Truth seems to have misinterpreted what he said.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The Explorer wasn't talking about journal access. He was requesting that Truth upload the paper on some filesharing site (not realizing that not everyone is a member of such a site), and put his neck on the line, just so Explorer could have one-click access.

Goes to show what an inconsiderate ass he is. He should be grateful someone even offered to send it to ES members in the first place. I wasn't going to say anything but Truth seems to have misinterpreted what he said.

Actually I did think Explorer wanted me to upload it onto a file-sharing website. I didn't do that because on a lot of these sites the files don't stay up permanently, so the link wouldn't have lasted long enough.
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Finished reading the whole study and it was pretty good. Thanks Truth.
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
The Explorer wasn't talking about journal access. He was requesting that Truth upload the paper on some filesharing site (not realizing that not everyone is a member of such a site), and put his neck on the line, just so Explorer could have one-click access.

Goes to show what an inconsiderate ass he is. He should be grateful someone even offered to send it to ES members in the first place. I wasn't going to say anything but Truth seems to have misinterpreted what he said.

Actually I did think Explorer wanted me to upload it onto a file-sharing website. I didn't do that because on a lot of these sites the files don't stay up permanently, so the link wouldn't have lasted long enough.
Indeed, I was exploring that possibility of you using a file-sharing website as others have repeatedly done here in the past, with no complications as far as I can tell. That fuckhead swenet was a repeat beneficiary of that very sort of thing, notwithstanding that menstrual-bitching about me being inconsiderate for exploring the possibility. The irony of that bitching is that the suggestion was made, as I clearly noted, to make the file more widely and readily accessible to more people, not to leave out that all that senseless baby-crying had very little to do with Truthcentric's stated reason above. No doubt I understand that such files don't stay up permanently, but I was not intending to wait forever to finally go through the study either. Access through e-mail exchange, it is then!
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

I don't know what the big deal is with the Ibero-Maurusians.

Then just turn to an inquiry around why Europeans make a big deal about them. That will serve as a possible hint.

quote:
They weren't important to the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization unless you count Carthage (a Phoenician colony).
I beg to differ, in that European ideologues obviously see EpiPaleolithic coastal north Africans as another piece of a romantic jigsaw puzzle scenery, wherein coastal northern Africa, with its famous superlative ancient complexes, can be attributable to peoples supposedly more related to Europeans, as opposed to those "beastly" sub-Saharan Africans. It is part and parcel of European imperialism, for the same reason, the actual impact of Arab-Islamic influence in Europe is often downplayed and portrayed as nothing more than Muslims simply re-telling Europeans ancient Greek scholarship.
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Ibero-Maurusian culture ended about 5000 years before Carthage began

No doubt, there was a considerable temporal space between the Mesolithic Maghrebi people and the complex of Carthage.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

I don't know what the big deal is with the Ibero-Maurusians.

Then just turn to an inquiry around why Europeans make a big deal about them. That will serve as a possible hint.

quote:
They weren't important to the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization unless you count Carthage (a Phoenician colony).
I beg to differ, in that European ideologues obviously see EpiPaleolithic coastal north Africans as another piece of a romantic jigsaw puzzle scenery, wherein coastal northern Africa, with its famous superlative ancient complexes, can be attributable to peoples supposedly more related to Europeans, as opposed to those "beastly" sub-Saharan Africans. It is part and parcel of European imperialism, for the same reason, the actual impact of Arab-Islamic influence in Europe is often downplayed and portrayed as nothing more than Muslims simply re-telling Europeans ancient Greek scholarship.

Truthcentric said Ibero-Maurusians weren't important to the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization.

Setting aside what European ideologues think, do you agree or disagree with that?

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[qb] The Explorer wasn't talking about journal access. He was requesting that Truth upload the paper on some filesharing site (not realizing that not everyone is a member of such a site), and put his neck on the line, just so Explorer could have one-click access.

Goes to show what an inconsiderate ass he is. He should be grateful someone even offered to send it to ES members in the first place. I wasn't going to say anything but Truth seems to have misinterpreted what he said.

Actually I did think Explorer wanted me to upload it onto a file-sharing website. I didn't do that because on a lot of these sites the files don't stay up permanently, so the link wouldn't have lasted long enough.
Noted [Wink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs.

Well, what an interesting turn of events. For several threads you were senselessly fidgeting and crying like a baby about the idea of Mesolithic Maghrebi having "tropical body proportions", as something like that would have most definitely contradicted your fantasy story of these folks having no physiological relations with "sub-Saharan" Africans. Nice to see that progress is being forced into your throat, however slow and begrudgingly. [Smile]

quote:

Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians. Their crural and brachial index are at 85.5% and 77.5 respectively per Holiday 1997.

Rubbish. If we consider pooled Mesolithic North African limb proportions, as I noted above, the average was 78 and 85, for brachial and crural indexes respectively. The Taforalt brachial index is reportedly similar to the 76.3 of the Nazlet Khater (Hershkovitz et al.), while as noted above, the Taforalt range for crural indexes was even higher than that reported for the Afalou, which was said to range from 82.4 to 87.1.

BTW, who are these Mesolithic Europeans. Name them!

quote:

Its simply a pleisiomorphic trait from their Upper Palaeolithic ancestors, and ultimate from Africans. What you want to look at is their bodyplan in its entirety or their absolute limb length, both of which are unlikely to retain a plesiomorphic state for as long as limb proportions.

Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
--Holiday, 1999

As a matter of fact, the Ohalo II H2 specimen, if it's any indicator of what a Levantine population was like in the Upper Paleolithic, bears sub-tropical limb proportions, while the Mesolithic Maghrebi series have longer limb bones than the Natufians [who seem to have higher limb proportions than the Ohalo specimen], as evidenced by the femoral size. Long lower-limb bones suggests that the EpiPaleolithic Maghreb series were relatively linear in stature, as compared to their contemporaries in the Levant, while the Holliday piece above suggests that body linearity seems to have become less of an attribute in the later early Europeans. So, your attempt at trying to portray the Mesolithic Maghrebi series as extensions of Eurasians is proving to be a fiasco.

But all this is a distraction. We must not lose focus over the fact that the tropical body proportions in fact points to affinities that you denied were there between Mesolithic Maghrebi series and "sub-Saharans".

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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

You're lying again I see. There is nothing in my post that suggests I misinterpreted your post. As for the your gaping stupidity where post-cranial analysis is concerned, if you knew anything about bodyplan research and Holiday's work it would have occurred to you that Holiday's reference to ''log shape data'' in that dendrogram description negates your uneducated speculation about whether the dendrogram refers to limb proportions.

I see that you are being your usual very childishly emotional self with no substance. How is "body shape" determined?

quote:
I see you're too confused to understand that you're talking gobbledygook right now, so I won't bother telling you that no disagreement on my part was expressed about your random invocation of San limb proportions.
You crying like a spoiled infant about my observation on the San being supposedly "silly and obselete" sounds like a clear disagreement to me.

quote:

I will, however, tell you that you're a troll and that you need to start addressing what I said, rather than talking out the side of your neck.

Okay, you are good at calling me names, you likely don't even understand. What else is new?

quote:

quote:
It must suck to be an asshole/you.
Unlike your uneducated troll face I actually have the paper.
Yet with such an access, unlike my "uneducated troll face", the piece I quoted must have eluded you, given your uncultured reaction to the prospect of putting Holliday on record on the subject of pygmies.

quote:

There are two dendrograms from that paper, prove that either one of them doesn't depict Egypt as among the Pygmy sample's closest neighbours. That excerpt doesn't even deny the fact that Pygmies have always clustered with Dynastic Egyptians in Holiday's research, it just says that in that particular analysis Pygmies came out on the other end of 'linearity', not that Egyptians and African Americans aren't near the other side of that border. Uneducated trolls always talk smack but never have anything to back it up.

The day your dumbass can perform a lick of reading, will be the day hell freezes over. The piece is in fact saying what your tramp-ass is now humorously denying, that the pygmies were an outlier among their sub-Saharan group, where body linearity was concerned.

Quoting from the horses' mouth is backing "it" up, silly donkey.

quote:
Stop lying already. You habitually misrepresent your data, like with the your ''nasal index'' data, and you got called out for it. Contrary to your false presentation of Ohalo II as such, the specimen is not Natufian.
You are just too retarded to do a simple thing as reading a post in its entirety, so you can understand what's being said, as opposed to keeping your bug eye on tidbits --like a bull mesmerized by a red rag -- that you can zealously misread.
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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Truthcentric said Ibero-Maurusians weren't important to the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization.

lioness, I know he is saying the above, and hence, asking why the "Ibero-Maurusians" are made into a big deal, but I'm telling him why. My guess however, is that Truthcentric was actually underhandedly saying that Africans should not mind much or argue over EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi series, since they supposedly had no direct role in "major African civilizations". But to me, that's like saying one should interject for the sake of truth, only if there is some self-serving reason behind it.

quote:

Setting aside what European ideologues think, do you agree or disagree with that?

What European ideologues think cannot be set aside, as it is the driver behind that "big deal" that's puzzling to Truthcentric.

Having said that, I'll agree that the EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi group have no bearing on "the peopling of the Nile Valley or any other major African civilization" in of itself, but they do have research value, in that their remains, DNA and occupational record allows inquiring minds get a wider grasp of the dynamics of climate change and population movements along the Sahara, which indeed has direct bearing on "the peopling of the Nile Valley and other major African civilizations". While still debatable, for instance, links have been made between the Nile Valley and the "Ibero-Maurusians".

The earlier Aterian industries give way to later specialised traditions (Iberomaurusian and Caspian of the Mediterranean coast), which appear 22-20 ky ago (early Iberomaurusian levels at Taforalt, Morocco; Tamar Hat, Algeria)25. Palaeoclimatic reconstructions show that the Maghreb had a different climatic regime from that of other regions, maintaining a refuge of relatively humid conditions during the last glacial maximum. Between 20-15 ky rainfall was more irregular, and by 12-10 ky maximum aridity settled, when most of inter tropical and tropical Africa had wetter conditions. Ferembach found similarities between the Mechta, Afalou, Taforalt and the fossil of Dar-es Soltane (Aterian, Morocco), which would indicate a local origin of the group. However, the similarities between the Afalou-Taforalt and the Wadi Haifa series from Sudan suggest movements across the Sahara during late Pleistocene - early Holocene times. According to palaeoclimatic data such movements were possible at that time, and they are supported by the distribution of Ounanian and later archaeological sites in the Sahara. - Arensburg et al. 1995

With the winding down of the aridity in the early Holocene, before the return to aridity starting some time ca. 7,000 years ago or thereafter, the attraction of population movements along the Sahara may have impacted groups situated along the coasts of the Maghreb to some degree or another. They may have been absorbed by some intruding groups in some places, or they may have integrated some intruding elements giving rise to the so-called Capsian occupations in other places. There is noticeable time gap between the Mesolithic Maghrebi groups and the Capsian groups in certain places, while in central north Sahara, there appears to be less void in the occupational record.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
For several threads you were senselessly fidgeting and crying like a baby about the idea of Mesolithic Maghrebi having "tropical body proportions"

Complete lie. I’ve always maintained that they had tropical limb proportions. Recap, from the thread where you got thrashed beyond repair:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
If there are EpiPaleolithic Maghreb specimens showing "tropical" proportions, how can that then be "not tropical enough"?

Aside from not knowing what PCA is, you clearly also do not know what the difference is between a body plan and limb proportions, and the known phenomenon that a population (e.g., Ibero-Maurusian) can seem tropical in the latter, but not in the former.
^You're such a liar.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Rubbish.

You’re such a lying troll. You call my observation that the IM had lower brachial and crural indices than European Mesolithic remains ''rubbish'', and then you go on to begrudgingly admit that the IM, or at least, Taforalt, brachial index is ~76%, which is lower than that of Mesolithic Europeans with more than a full percentage. Even the crural index of the pooled North African sample, which includes the very tropically adapted Jebel Sahaba sample, does not exceed the Mesolithic European crural index, let alone when this sample is subtracted. Congratulations, you've just single handedly debunked yourself.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
BTW, who are these Mesolithic Europeans. Name them!

Gough’s Cave 1
Gramat 1
Hoëdic 5
Hoëdic 6
Hoëdic 8
Hoëdic 9
Rastel 1
Rochereil 1
Téviec 1
Téviec 11
Téviec 10

Now what, troll?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Long lower-limb bones suggests that the EpiPaleolithic Maghreb series were relatively linear in stature

Lol. What the hell is ''linear in stature''? Admit it, you don’t even know what you’re talking about, do you? Just talking mumbo jumbo, like a confused puppy.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
So, your attempt at trying to portray the Mesolithic Maghrebi series as extensions of Eurasians is proving to be a fiasco.

Before this bizarre line of reasoning can be entertained, explain what the hell ''Long lower-limb bones'' have to do with linearity. Yes, the insinuation that goes out from your posturing, i.e., that your grasp of the topic is more than sub par, is disintegrating by the minute.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I see that you are being your usual very childishly emotional self with no substance. How is "body shape" determined?

Certainly not by limb proportions, if that’s where you’re going with it. Now your turn: how is the description of ''log shape data'' below fig 5 consistent with the idea that it’s depicting population relationships in limb proportions?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You crying like a spoiled infant about my observation on the San being supposedly "silly and obselete" sounds like a clear disagreement to me.

Its very simple. You tried to discredit fig 5 by referring to the moderately tropical limb proportions of the San, and how that was supposedly at odds with fig 5. The applicability of that objection, however, is now shown to be totally baseless, and you have yet to come to grips with that fact.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The piece is in fact saying what your tramp-ass is now humorously denying, that the pygmies were an outlier among their sub-Saharan group, where body linearity was concerned.

Lying through your teeth again. The excerpt doesn’t even say that the Pygmies were an outlier group. The Holiday piece only spoke of a gradient (i.e., less linear and linear). How your mind pathologically distorts this very simple to understand concept into the idea that the Pygmy sample assumed an outlier position, away from North Africans, is something mental hospitals are quite good at deciphering.

Those who actually are familiar with Holiday’s work (and who are not frauds pretending to be in the know, like you), know that the following is a recurrent theme in Holiday's work:

One might find it odd that the Pygmies cluster with North Africans. This is due to allometric effects associated with their small size. In particular HL-shape exhibits negative allometry, while FHAP-shape exhibits positive allometry (Holliday, 1995). Therefore, as a result of their small size, the Pygmies are characterized by small femoral heads and long humeri – features aligning them more closely with the North Africans than with Sub-Saharan Africans.
--Holiday 1997

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are just too retarded to do a simple thing as reading a post in its entirety

Either that or I’m too perceptive to be oblivious to a troll who performs damage control when I see it. From the Troll’s mouth:

Upon reading this, one might get the gratuitous impression that Natufian and northwest African "Ibero-Maurusian" series are similar, but delineated from the Jebel Sahaba series. Not so, when other reports are taken into account

You then went on to talk about Ohalo II, which isn’t even Natufian, just like you patently stupid claims regarding nasal index, ’’PCA that performs cluster analysis’’, ''linear statures'', ''long bones indicating linearity'' and ''outlier pygmies''. Not to mention your off the cuff speculation about about fig 5 representing limb proportions when accompanying clarifying descriptions clearly rule it out. The things you say get more retarded by the minute, and its precisely because you don't have the foggiest idea what you're rambling about.

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 -

 -  -
 -

look at how short their legs are, how could they cluster with African Americans?


_______________________________________________

limb proprtion can change relatively quickly, alteration of body width occurs much more slowly

- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin
_________________________________________________

(only have access to abstract: :

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008 May;136(1):28-38.
Adult proportionality in small-bodied foragers: a test of ecogeographic expectations.
Kurki HK, Ginter JK, Stock JT, Pfeiffer S.
Source
Department of Anthropology, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. helen.kurki@utoronto.ca

Abstract
If predictable, ecogeographic patterning in body size and proportions of human populations can provide valuable information regarding human biology, adaptation to local environments, migration histories, and health, now and in the past. This paper evaluates the assumption that small-bodied Later Stone Age (LSA) foragers of Southern Africa show the adult proportions that would be expected of warm-adapted populations. Comparisons are also made with small-bodied foragers from the Andaman Islands (AI). Indices including brachial, crural, limb element length to skeletal trunk height, and femoral head and bi-iliac breadth to femoral length were calculated from samples of LSA (n = 124) and AI (n = 31) adult skeletons. Samples derived from the literature include those from high (Europe), middle (North Africa), and low (Sub-Saharan Africa) latitude regions. The LSA and AI samples match some but not all expected ecogeographic patterns for their particular regions of long term habitation. For most limb length to skeletal trunk height indices the LSA and AI are most similar to the other mid-latitude sample (North Africans). However, both groups are similar to low latitude groups in their narrow bi-iliac breadths, and the AI display relatively long radii. Proportions of LSA and AI samples also differ from those of African pygmies. In regions like southern-most Africa, that do not experience climatic extremes of temperature or humidity, or where small body size exists through drift or selection, body size, and proportions may also be influenced by nonclimatic variables, such as energetic efficiency.

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Ish Geber
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On what page can this be found?


"limb proprtion can change relatively quickly, alteration of body width occurs much more slowly"

- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin


And what is "relatively"?


Relatively in the sense of human evolution, 15,000 to 18,000 years is indeed quickly.


quote:
Migration within a larger time framework took place ca. 15,000–18,000 BP, when the first Asian populations crossed the Bering Strait, ultimately founding the modern Amerindian population. Despite having as much as 18,000 years of selection in environments as diverse as those found in the Old World, body mass and proportion clines in the Americas are less steep than those in the Old World (Newman, 1953; Roberts, 1978). In fact, as Hulse (1960) pointed out, Amerindians, even in the tropics, tend to possess some ‘‘arctic’’ adaptations. Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992). This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."


- Holliday T. (1997). Body proportions
in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern
human origins. Jrnl Hum Evo. 32:423-447


 -


 -



quote:
The link between anatomy and clim- ate relates to thermoregulation, or the balance between heat produced and the ability to dissipate it. This rela- tionship translates to the ratio of the surface area to the volume of the cylinder, or body mass. In hot climates, a high ratio – that is, a large surface area relative to body mass – facilitates heat loss. In cold climates, a low ratio – that is, a small surface area relative to body mass – allows heat retention. Simple geometry shows that the ratio of surface area to body mass is high when the cylinder is narrow, and low when it is wide. This finding forms the basis of Bergmann’s rule.

A strong prediction flows from this analysis: people living at low latitudes will have narrow bodies and a linear stature, while those at high latitudes will have wide bodies and a relatively bulky stature. When Ruff surveyed 71 populations around the globe, he found that the prediction was sustained very well (Fig. 6.14). He also discovered that Allen’s rule applies convincingly, with tropical people having longer, thinner limbs, which maximizes heat loss, while people at high latitudes have shorter limbs. This difference in limb proportions enhances the linear look of tropical people and the stocky appearance of high-latitude populations. A comparison of the tall Nilotic people of Africa with the relatively stocky Eskimos in the northernmost latitudes of North America illustrates this difference very clearly.

Body width represents the key variable, even though tropical people also tend to be linear. A further step of simple geometry shows that linear- ity is not a necessary feature of low-latitude populations. The ratio of the surface area to body mass in a cylindrical model of a certain width is not altered by changing its length, as Fig. 6.13 above shows. Peoples who live in similar climatic zones will have the same body width, no matter how tall or short they are, because they have the same surface area to body mass ratios (Fig. 6.15).

Page 146


quote:
figure 6.18 Body proportions in early modern humans and Neanderthals: Limb proportions of modern humans in relation to temperature are shown in the graph. The limb proportions of early modern humans and Neanderthals are indicated by arrows, and suggest that the former were tropical in origin, while the latter were cold-adapted. (Courtesy of C. Stringer.)
page 150

- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QB] On what page can this be found?


"limb proprtion can change relatively quickly, alteration of body width occurs much more slowly"

- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin



here,

http://books.google.com/books?id=dDWsTli1k54C&pg=PT203&lpg=PT203&dq=%22lim#v=

not sure the page #
Title of section: Complications Flowing From Population Migration

______________________________


also this you post the picture from:

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/49/19348.long

Temperature regulates limb length in homeotherms by directly modulating cartilage growth
Maria A. Serrata,1, Donna Kingb, and C. Owen Lovejoy

(

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the lioness,
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Modern human, early modern human and Neanderthal limb proportions
A.M.W. Porter

Abstract
The limb proportions of 686 subjects (461 men and 225 women) from five ethnic groups (White, Inuit, Gurkha, Bantu, San) have been compared. Stature, limb and skeletal measurements were taken directly from the subjects by one observer. The brachial and crural indices of the Whites were markedly smaller (lower) than those of the other populations. The crural indices of the Inuit were similar to those of the two African populations, but this may be an artefact from relatively small numbers for the Inuit population. There is no sexual dimorphism for the brachial index, but men have larger (higher) crural indices than women, a finding which probably relates to the relatively broad pelvises and consequently long femurs of women. The two African populations have long limb lengths standardized for height compared to the Gurkha and Inuit populations, with the Whites intermediate. This finding is consistent with Bergmann's thermoregulatory rule. The correlations between distal abbreviation and limb abbreviation for both the upper and lower limbs are poor and negative. Relatively long limbs tend to have smaller distal segments than relatively short limbs and for the legs this may constitute a safeguard for the integrity of the medial and cruciate ligaments of the knee. For these five modern populations distal abbreviation cannot be used as a proxy for limb abbreviation and there is no justification for linking distal abbreviation with climatic selection. Skeletal data relating to nine Neanderthal and 25 early modern humans have also been analysed. The analysis confirms marked limb and distal abbreviation for the Neanderthals compared to early and contemporary modern humans, but this conclusion presupposes that the taxonomic classes are correct and that limb proportions were not used originally as a class discriminant. For these archaic populations there is a moderate positive correlation between lower limb abbreviation and distal abbreviation, but the numbers are small and the confidence intervals very wide. In view of the findings for modern populations, and until more relevant fossils are available, it is probably unwise to use the crural index as a proxy for limb abbreviation in archaic populations. Copyright © 1999 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Complete lie. I’ve always maintained that they had tropical limb proportions. Recap, from the thread where you got thrashed beyond repair:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
If there are EpiPaleolithic Maghreb specimens showing "tropical" proportions, how can that then be "not tropical enough"?

Aside from not knowing what PCA is, you clearly also do not know what the difference is between a body plan and limb proportions, and the known phenomenon that a population (e.g., Ibero-Maurusian) can seem tropical in the latter, but not in the former.
^You're such a liar.
Let's see: How you do figure someone can have "tropical limb ratios" but not have a "tropical body plan"?


quote:
You’re such a lying troll. You call my observation that the IM had lower brachial and crural indices than European Mesolithic remains ''rubbish'', and then you go on to begrudgingly admit that the IM, or at least, Taforalt, brachial index is ~76%, which is lower than that of Mesolithic Europeans with more than a full percentage.
You forgot to mention that I also quoted the pooled Mesolithic North African average indexes, which was either slightly higher or on par.

As for your runny nose about 76%, that was not the actual value for the Taforalt, dummy; it was said that the Taforalt's own was similar to this value. Also, 76.3 is the neighborhood of 77.5. A few points difference is hardly something to call "significantly higher", or else let me guess, you are probably going to tell me, that by this, you were actually speaking of the statistical significance, right?


quote:

Even the crural index of the pooled North African sample, which includes the very tropically adapted Jebel Sahaba sample, does not exceed the Mesolithic European crural index, let alone when this sample is subtracted.

Why should it need to "exceed the Mesolithic European" index, when it was merely posted to show how foolish you were, to speak of a "significantly higher" of the aforementioned? You are an idiot.

We've already seen how quite high the Epipaleolithic indexes can be, as the Afalou had shown. The Jebel Sahaba's indexes, which you have not shown, has no bearing on this, just as the Taforalt's implied brachial index also suggests. You really are trying too hard to wish-away the tropical-adaptation affinities the Mesolithic share with "sub-Saharan" Africans, aren't you.

quote:
Gough’s Cave 1
Gramat 1
Hoëdic 5
Hoëdic 6
Hoëdic 8
Hoëdic 9
Rastel 1
Rochereil 1
Téviec 1
Téviec 11
Téviec 10

Now what, troll?

Don't lose your panties; just wanted to confirm that these were pooled European burials. I couldn't help but also notice that many of the mentioned (e.g. Hoedic and Teviec) are actually younger than the Mesolithic Maghrebi series by reported estimates.


quote:
Lol. What the hell is ''linear in stature''? Admit it, you don’t even know what you’re talking about, do you? Just talking mumbo jumbo, like a confused puppy.
I take it your dumbass must not have been clued on what a linear stature is? Let me know if this is the case, so I can clue you in, rather than using fuckheaded conclusions to mask your unawareness.

quote:
Before this bizarre line of reasoning can be entertained, explain what the hell ''Long lower-limb bones'' have to do with linearity. Yes, the insinuation that goes out from your posturing, i.e., that your grasp of the topic is more than sub par, is disintegrating by the minute.
See above.

quote:
Certainly not by limb proportions, if that’s where you’re going with it. Now your turn: how is the description of ''log shape data'' below fig 5 consistent with the idea that it’s depicting population relationships in limb proportions?
Oh really. Tell me how body shape is determined without consideration given to limb proportions. You are obviously dancing around this issue.

quote:
Its very simple. You tried to discredit fig 5 by referring to the moderately tropical limb proportions of the San, and how that was supposedly at odds with fig 5.
Let me guess. This explanation supposedly tells us that my observation on the San limb proportions is not only "silly" but also "obsolete"? LOL

quote:

The applicability of that objection, however, is now shown to be totally baseless, and you have yet to come to grips with that fact.

This is even funnier than the above.

quote:
Lying through your teeth again. The excerpt doesn’t even say that the Pygmies were an outlier group.
numbnut I was not speaking to the piece word for word; I was merely trying to clue your dumbass with the simplified idea, which as it turns, was not simple enough for you.

Who other than the idiot swenet has a lot of trouble understanding that the pygmies are essentially being described as an outlier among the sub-Saharan group?

It has two main branches—a long and linear body build branch that includes the Egyptians, Sub-Saharan Africans (except for the Pygmies), and African-Americans and a second, less linear body form branch that includes the Inuit, Europeans, Euro-Americans, Puebloans, Nubians, and Pygmies. Note that the Nubians used in this study are thought by some to represent an immigrant population from Europe or Western Asia [see Holliday (1995)]. - Holliday et al. (2009)

quote:

The Holiday piece only spoke of a gradient (i.e., less linear and linear).

So now, "linear" is a gradient, as opposed to shape. You kill me with bursting my intestine out of laughter, at you, for sheer undiluted stupidity. LOL

quote:
How your mind pathologically distorts this very simple to understand concept into the idea that the Pygmy sample assumed an outlier position, away from North Africans, is something mental hospitals are quite good at deciphering.
You are not even in the same universe as that quoted piece just above. LOL

quote:
Those who actually are familiar with Holiday’s work (and who are not frauds pretending to be in the know, like you), know that the following is a recurrent theme in Holiday's work:

One might find it odd that the Pygmies cluster with North Africans. This is due to allometric effects associated with their small size. In particular HL-shape exhibits negative allometry, while FHAP-shape exhibits positive allometry (Holliday, 1995). Therefore, as a result of their small size, the Pygmies are characterized by small femoral heads and long humeri – features aligning them more closely with the North Africans than with Sub-Saharan Africans.
--Holiday 1997

The dingbat even goes onto quote a material from a different publication, 1997, which in any case, is not helping, but actually reaffirming what an illiterate idiot this character is.

quote:
Either that or I’m too perceptive to be oblivious to a troll who performs damage control when I see it. From the Troll’s mouth:

Upon reading this, one might get the gratuitous impression that Natufian and northwest African "Ibero-Maurusian" series are similar, but delineated from the Jebel Sahaba series. Not so, when other reports are taken into account


The fat-ass donkey forgot to highlight "other reports" [that I just clued the donkey's ass in], which--for those with no problem reading the full length of the post--would be unmistakable for its intentions.
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We have seen Chris Stringers chart but what is the numerical average limb to body ratio of pygmies, Mbuti or Efe for instance? - no one can find it.
No one can find the number average and an article reference to it, prove me wrong

Here is an article I don't have access to maybe it's in here ?

Body size estimation of small-bodied humans: Applicability of current methods

Abstract
Body size (stature and mass) estimates are integral to understanding the lifeways of past populations.Body size estimation of an archaeological skeletal sample can be problematic when the body size or proportions of the population are distinctive. One such population is that of the Holocene Later Stone Age (LSA) of southern Africa, in which small stature (mean femoral length = 407 mm, n = 52) and narrow pelves (mean bi-iliac breadth = 210 mm, n = 50) produce a distinctive adult body size/shape, making it difficult to identify appropriate body size estimation methods. Material culture, morphology, and culture history link the Later Stone Age people with the descendant population collectively known as the Khoe-San. Stature estimates based on skeletal “anatomical” linear measures (the Fully method) and on long bone length are compared, along with body mass estimates derived from “morphometric” (bi-iliac breath/stature) and “biomechanical” (femoral head diameter) methods, in a LSA adult skeletal sample (n = 52) from the from coastal and near-coastal regions of South Africa. Indices of sexual dimorphism (ISD) for each method are compared with data from living populations. Fully anatomical stature is most congruent with Olivier's femur + tibia method, although both produce low ISD. McHenry's femoral head body mass formula produces estimates most consistent with the bi-iliac breadth/staturemethod for the females, although the males display higher degrees of disagreement among methods. These results highlight the need for formulae derived from reference samples from a wider range of body sizes to improve the reliability of existing methods. Am J Phys Anthropol, 2010. © 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
H.K. K 2010

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21127/abstract

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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Let's see: How you do figure someone can have "tropical limb ratios" but not have a "tropical body plan"?

Trying to distract the attention away from the fact that the piece you're responding to points out what a big fat liar you are, huh? No biggie, if you insist in getting educated: I had recently posted an excerpt from Holiday 1999 saying limb proportions can be a poor predictor of limb length, which is what limb proportions ultimately try to get to the bottom to. It can also a poor predictor of trunk height per Holiday. But you wouldn't know, being the uneducated troll you are.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
As for your runny nose about 76%, that was not the actual value for the Taforalt, dummy; it was said that the Taforalt's own was similar to this value.

Your astronomic stupidity goes through the roof. You don't even know that a set of digits with the tilde symbol behind it in this context depicts an approximation. No surprise, really, with all your other recent phuckups bathing in broad daylight.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Why should it need to "exceed the Mesolithic European" index, when it was merely posted to show how foolish you were, to speak of a "significantly higher" of the aforementioned?

I'm sure that that's why you posted it. Cause, lord knows, your desperate hammering on their limb data in the absence of even a hint of opposition to their limb data (other than the opposition you fabricated with your lie), and in light of the other data posted in this thread (The Afalou/Circumpolar cluster), isn't exactly jiving with the hard data at hand, showing them to cluster away from Africans where the multivariate data is concerned.
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I couldn't help but also notice that many of the mentioned (e.g. Hoedic and Teviec) are actually younger than the Mesolithic Maghrebi series by reported estimates.

Which, as late as the proportions still appear, further stamps in the ground your pseudo-scientific idea that IM limb proportions further your hopeless cause, especially in light of Holiday 2013's multivariate analysis.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I take it your dumbass must not have been clued on what a linear stature is?

I asked you a question, troll. No further stalling. What the hell is ''linear in stature''?
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
See above.

No, troll. Too late for damage controll. You were asked what linearity has to do with ''long lower-limb bones''. And no, me drilling on this issue isn't going to stop until you admit what a fraud you are.
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Oh really. Tell me how body shape is determined without consideration given to limb proportions. You are obviously dancing around this issue.

No need to dance around the issue, as those in the know are already aware of the fact that neither of Holiday's three visualizations of his multivariate analysis utilize or incorporate limb proportion indices; they are predicated on measurements (breadths, lengths and diameters, etc). Yes indeed, your posts smack of idiocy. Now, to get back on topic, how is the description below fig 5 consistent with the idea that it's depicting population relationships in limb proportions?
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
This is even funnier than the above.

Face it, you thought you had the data behind you when you made the retarded insinuation that San limb proportions discredit fig 5, when the premise that insinuation is based on had been put to sleep by Holiday as early as 1999, and a host of other authors documenting that limb proportions don't have the last say in the matter. That you laugh at the fact that this very ancient fact makes your comment obsolete is further evidence of the fact that you're a total fraud.
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Who other than the idiot swenet has a lot of trouble understanding that the pygmies are essentially being described as an outlier among the sub-Saharan group?

Well, since you insist on trolling and lying, **prove** that the position of the Pygmy sample conformed to the following dictionary description of 'outlier' in the dendrograms that 2009 excerpt discusses. Perhaps you're better at gawking at dendrogram images than letters:


Outlier
quote:

A value far from most others in a set of data

quote:
So now, "linear" is a gradient, as opposed to shape.
You're such a lying cretin. How does saying ''The Holiday piece only spoke of a gradient (i.e., less linear and linear)'' equal saying ''linear is a gradient, as opposed to shape''?
quote:
The dingbat even goes onto quote a material from a different publication, 1997, which in any case, is not helping
Troll, the Holiday 1997 piece I cited makes direct references to commonalities between the North African sample and the Pygmy sample, which, according to Holiday, makes them cluster. How are such inherent commonalities susceptable to change depending on the publication, when the publication you cited, or any other for that matter, isn't even in conflict with it, horrendously stupid megatroll? The Pygmy sample in fig 5 still occupies a position adjacent to the ''outlier'' (LOL) Christian era Nubian sample, which smacks the taste out of your retarded claim that fig 5 is contradicted by Holiday 2009.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The fat-ass donkey forgot to highlight "other reports" [that I just clued the donkey's ass in], which--for those with no problem reading the full length of the post--would be unmistakable for its intentions.

Troll, your desperate hammering on your reference to ''other reports'' doesn't get your troll paws out of hot water, as it is preceded by a certain claim about Natufians, that you intended to to add substance to. If it wasn't your intention to add substance to that claim about Natufians, the coherence of your entire post falls apart. Not that that's a rarity for you, of course.
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
[QB] On what page can this be found?


"limb proprtion can change relatively quickly, alteration of body width occurs much more slowly"

- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin



here,

http://books.google.com/books?id=dDWsTli1k54C&pg=PT203&lpg=PT203&dq=%22lim#v=

not sure the page #
Title of section: Complications Flowing From Population Migration

______________________________


also this you post the picture from:

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/49/19348.long

Temperature regulates limb length in homeotherms by directly modulating cartilage growth
Maria A. Serrata,1, Donna Kingb, and C. Owen Lovejoy

(

I read the page. And as suspected relative is within the timeframe of the anatomical modern human.

So from that point of view 15,000-18,000 year is relative.

Hence how they correlate the section with "the new world" / Amerindians. And indirectly referring to:

quote:
Migration within a larger time framework took place ca. 15,000–18,000 BP, when the first Asian populations crossed the Bering Strait, ultimately founding the modern Amerindian population. Despite having as much as 18,000 years of selection in environments as diverse as those found in the Old World, body mass and proportion clines in the Americas are less steep than those in the Old World (Newman, 1953; Roberts, 1978). In fact, as Hulse (1960) pointed out, Amerindians, even in the tropics, tend to possess some ‘‘arctic’’ adaptations. Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992). This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."


- Holliday T. (1997). Body proportions
in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern
human origins. Jrnl Hum Evo. 32:423-447

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Modern human, early modern human and Neanderthal limb proportions
A.M.W. Porter

Abstract
The limb proportions of 686 subjects (461 men and 225 women) from five ethnic groups (White, Inuit, Gurkha, Bantu, San) have been compared. Stature, limb and skeletal measurements were taken directly from the subjects by one observer. The brachial and crural indices of the Whites were markedly smaller (lower) than those of the other populations. The crural indices of the Inuit were similar to those of the two African populations, but this may be an artefact from relatively small numbers for the Inuit population. There is no sexual dimorphism for the brachial index, but men have larger (higher) crural indices than women, a finding which probably relates to the relatively broad pelvises and consequently long femurs of women. The two African populations have long limb lengths standardized for height compared to the Gurkha and Inuit populations, with the Whites intermediate. This finding is consistent with Bergmann's thermoregulatory rule. The correlations between distal abbreviation and limb abbreviation for both the upper and lower limbs are poor and negative. Relatively long limbs tend to have smaller distal segments than relatively short limbs and for the legs this may constitute a safeguard for the integrity of the medial and cruciate ligaments of the knee. For these five modern populations distal abbreviation cannot be used as a proxy for limb abbreviation and there is no justification for linking distal abbreviation with climatic selection. Skeletal data relating to nine Neanderthal and 25 early modern humans have also been analysed. The analysis confirms marked limb and distal abbreviation for the Neanderthals compared to early and contemporary modern humans, but this conclusion presupposes that the taxonomic classes are correct and that limb proportions were not used originally as a class discriminant. For these archaic populations there is a moderate positive correlation between lower limb abbreviation and distal abbreviation, but the numbers are small and the confidence intervals very wide. In view of the findings for modern populations, and until more relevant fossils are available, it is probably unwise to use the crural index as a proxy for limb abbreviation in archaic populations. Copyright © 1999 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

quote:
The failure of early modern humans to survive in the Levant during the early last glacial implies they were not yet physiologically and/or behaviorally well-adapted to cold climates and Palearctic environments, or at least not as well-adapted as neanderthals. [... ]As noted above, the replacement of modern humans by neanderthals in the Levant, suggests African modern humans were rather poorly-adapted to cold climates.
--Stanley H. Ambrose
Department of Anthropology, University of Illinois,

Journal of Human Evolution (1998) 34, 623–651

Late Pleistocene human population bottlenecks, volcanic winter, and differentiation of modern humans


quote:
Body proportions covary with climate, apparently as the result of climatic selection. Ontogenetic research and migrant studies have demonstrated that body proportions are largely genetically controlled and are under low selective rates; thus studies of body form can provide evidence for evolutionarily short-term dispersals and/or gene flow. Following these observations, competing models of modern human origins yield different predictions concerning body proportion shifts in Late Pleistocene Europe. Replacement predicts that the earliest modern Europeans will possess “tropical” body proportions (assuming Africa is the center of origin), while Regional Continuity permits only minor shifts in body shape, due to climatic change and/or improved cultural buffering. This study tests these predictions via analyses of osteometric data reflective of trunk height and breadth, limb proportions and relative body mass for samples of Early Upper Paleolithic (EUP), Late Upper Paleolithic (LUP) and Mesolithic (MES) humans and 13 recent African and European populations.Results reveal a clear tendency for the EUP sample to cluster with recent Africans, while LUP and MES samples cluster with recent Europeans. These results refute the hypothesis of local continuity in Europe, and are consistent with an interpretation of elevated gene flow (and population dispersal?) from Africa, followed by subsequent climatic adaptation to colder conditions. These data do not, however, preclude the possibility of some (albeit small) contribution of genes from Neandertals to succeeding populations, as is postulated in Bräuer’s “Afro-European Sapiens” model.
-Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins☆
--Holliday TW.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples
T. W. Holliday* 2013
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

The authors are wiping the floor with C. Coon's theories.


Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Barry Bogin and Maria Inęs Varela-Silva

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2872302/

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^Good link Patrol. And re Holiday- we can see from
his study..

 -

Ambrose sez:
The failure of early modern humans to survive in the Levant during the early last glacial implies they were not yet physiologically and/or behaviorally well-adapted to cold climates and Palearctic environments, or at least not as well-adapted as neanderthals. [... ]As noted above, the replacement of modern humans by neanderthals in the Levant, suggests African modern humans were rather poorly-adapted to cold climates.

--Stanley H. Ambrose


^^What other stuff do you have on Neanderthals
replacing moderns in the Levant Patrol? I am not 100%
sold on Ambrose's claim in the sense that said
African moderns went to Europe and gradually
showed adaptation- as demonstrated by the tropical
retentions seen among Cro-Magnons, and older European types.
Ambrose may be right but humans were adapting to
climates all along. I don't see Africans moderns
having any more trouble than anyone else per se.
If the tropically adapted migrants eventually adapted
to European environments why would they have trouble
in the Levant?
Based on what time frames and context?

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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Son of Ra
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Thanks for making that chart Zaharan. Your awesome!
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
The authors are wiping the floor with C. Coon's theories.


Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Barry Bogin and Maria Inęs Varela-Silva

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2872302/ [/QB]

Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Barry Bogin and Maria Inęs Varela-Silva

Coon divided living peoples of the world into five “races” based, in part, on body size and proportions. The Australian Aborigines (designated “Australoids” by Coon), have exceptionally long legs in proportion to stature, and African pygmies (“Congoids” in Coon’s taxonomy), have exceptionally short stature, long arms relative to leg length, and especially short lower legs.

Coon’s claim that African pygmies have “achondroplastic proportions” is also wrong. Shea and Bailey show that African pygmies are reduced in overall size and have a body shape that is allometrically proportional to the size reduction.


_____________________________________________

Isometric scaling occurs when changes in size (during growth or over evolutionary time) do not lead to changes in proportion.

Allometric scaling is any change that deviates from isometry. A classic example is the skeleton of mammals, which becomes much more robust and massive relative to the size of the body as the body size increases.


Eskimos and Pygmies have legs that are shorter than non-Pygmy Africans. Coon said in pygmies it was due to achondroplasia.

Achondroplasiais a common cause of dwarfism. It occurs as a sporadic mutation in approximately 75% of cases (associated with advanced paternal age) or may be inherited as an autosomal dominant genetic disorder.
In the above article Bogin says Shea and Bailey say their short legs would a change in proportion due to their smaller size (Bergman's rule)


___________________________________________

Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Barry Bogin and Maria Inęs Varela-Silva


The human species is distinguished from the non-human primates by several anatomical features. Among these are proportions of the arms and legs relative to total body length. The human difference is illustrated in Figure 5. In proportion to total body length, measured as stature, modern human adults have relatively long legs and short arms. Quantitative differences between adult humans, chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes), and bonobos

The primary reason for this is human bipedal locomotion, a behavior which evolved at least by 4.4 million years ago (MYA), as shown in the fossil hominin species Ardipithecus ramidus. Leg length must approximate 50 percent of total stature to achieve the biomechanical efficiency of the human striding bipedal gait.

The sitting height ratio (SHR) is a commonly used measure of body proportion. Measured stature minus sitting height may also be used to estimate leg length but this measure does not standardize for total height making it difficult to compare individuals with different statures. Mean SHR for populations of adults varies from minimum values, i.e., relatively longest legs, for Australian Aborigines (SHR = 47.3 for men and 48.1 for women) to the maximum SHR values, i.e., relatively shortest legs, for Guatemala Maya men and Peruvian women (SHR = 54.6 and 55.8).

Two well-known ecogeographic principles, Bergmann’s and Allen’s Rules, are often cited as primary causes for the global patterns of human body shape variation.


Large body mass and relatively short extremities increase the ratio of volume-to-surface area and provide for a body shape that maximizes metabolic heat retention in a mammal. Conversely, in warmer temperatures, relative long extremities increases surface areas relative to volume and allows for greater heat loss. It has been shown experimentally that mice and other non-human mammals raised in warmer temperature experience greater bone tissue growth and longer limb bones

(Serrat MA, King D, Lovejoy CO. Temperature regulates limb length in homeotherms by directly modulating cartilage growth.)

Bergmann’s and Allen’s rules apply, to some extent, to the human species.
These climate relationships, however, are not perfect. A re-analysis of the Roberts’ data by Katzmarzyk and Leonard [The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control52] modifies the importance of climate as the primary molder of human body shape.
Katzmarzyk and Leonard (p. 483) state that “...although climatic factors continue to be significant correlates of world-wide variation in human body size and morphology, differential changes in nutrition among tropical, developing world populations have moderated their influence.”

Guatemala Maya, for example, consume only approximately 80% of the total energy needed for healthy growth, and 20.4% are also iodine deficient [The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control53]. Iodine deficiency during infancy and childhood results in reduced leg length, especially the distal femur, the tibia and the foot [The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control54]. Maya children and adults spend considerable time and energy at heavy labor [The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control55], which diverts available energy in the diet away from growth. This nutrition and lifestyle combination is known to reduce total stature and leg length

Leitch [The following popper user interface control may not be accessible. Tab to the next button to revert the control to an accessible version.Destroy user interface control82] was the first medical researcher to propose that a ratio of LL to total stature could be a good indicator of the early life nutritional history and general health of an individual. Leitch (p. 145) wrote, ‘. . . it would be expected on general principles that children continuously underfed would grow into underdeveloped adults. . .with normal or nearly normal size head, moderately retarded trunk and relatively short legs.’ Reviewing the literature available at the time (pre-1950), Leitch found that improved nutrition during infancy and childhood did result in a greater increase in LL than in total height or weight.

9. Conclusion

Prenatal and postnatal undernutrition and disease account for relatively short legs in adults, but still do not explain why they are at greater risk for disease and mortality at earlier ages than the longer-legged adults.


___________________________________________

^^^ but with Pygmies a correlation with shorter stature also noted earlier

Starting in 1974 Bogin began research on the physical development of Guatemalan Maya children, and their families. Since 1992 he has researched Maya child growth and development after migration to the United States. The purpose of this research has been to document and model the social, economic, and political influences on differences in physical growth and health between Maya children living in Guatemala compared to those in the USA..

_____________________________________________

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/04/26/why-pygmies-are-short-new-evidence-surprises/

Scientifc American 2012


Pygmy populations, scientists have speculated, may owe their abbreviated stature to natural selection pressures that allowed them to better adapt to dense tropical forests where heat is oppressive and food is scarce. “An outstanding question for many, many years among anthropologists and human geneticists has been what is the genetic basis of the short stature trait in Pygmy populations globally and in Africa in particular, says Sarah Tishkoff, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, who is a leading expert on African population genetics. “There’s a good reason to think it’s adaptive because in fact in regions of dense tropical forests globally you often have these short-statured Pygmy groups.”
Tishkoff and colleagues have found an unexpected surprise in genetic evidence for Pygmy height, which reaches an average of 4 feet 11 inches in Pygmy men in Cameroon. They report in PLOS Genetics today on a set of genes that regulate immune and hormonal processes, and which only secondarily may be linked to height. Pygmies receive an intense assault from pathogens that flourish in the forest and that turn up routinely in their bush-meat diet: expected lifespan is less than 18 years. It may be that genes that protect against microbes may also hinder growth. Diminished stature could be a byproduct of bolstering immune and metabolic defenses and not a direct adaptation to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle.
The study was the most incisive to date looking at the genetics of height in Pygmies.
Tishkoff says that other studies will undoubtedly turn up genes tied to height in Pygmies and natural selection may still be found to play a direct role in giving rise to short stature.

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Ish Geber
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^ this bogus argument was already dispelled a year ago,

See Guatemala has a small population of African descent people. And some have been absorbed into the Native population.

Also the growth itself has nothing to do with tropical adaption etc....


Sone Indian guy once told me that Pakistan are taller than Indian. Because Pakistan are carnivores and eat more meat, were as Indians (Hindus) are mostly vegetarian.


quote:
These claims of race-based human taxonomy, including Coon’s time thresholds for homo-sapienation, have been discredited by paleontological and genomic research showing the antiquity of modern human origins within Africa, as well as the essential genomic African nature of all living human beings[...]

Coon’s claim that African pygmies have “achondroplastic proportions” is also wrong. Shea and Bailey[...]show that African pygmies are reduced in overall size and have a body shape that is allometrically proportional to the size reduction..



--Barry Bogin* and Maria Inęs Varela-Silva,
Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Int J Environ Res Public Healthv.7(3); Mar 2010PMC2872302


quote:
Peoples who live in similar climatic zones will have the same body width, no matter how tall or short they are, because they have the same surface area to body mass ratios (Fig. 6.15).
--- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin, Page 146

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^Good link Patrol. And re Holiday- we can see from
his study..

 -

Ambrose sez:
The failure of early modern humans to survive in the Levant during the early last glacial implies they were not yet physiologically and/or behaviorally well-adapted to cold climates and Palearctic environments, or at least not as well-adapted as neanderthals. [... ]As noted above, the replacement of modern humans by neanderthals in the Levant, suggests African modern humans were rather poorly-adapted to cold climates.

--Stanley H. Ambrose


^^What other stuff do you have on Neanderthals
replacing moderns in the Levant Patrol? I am not 100%
sold on Ambrose's claim in the sense that said
African moderns went to Europe and gradually
showed adaptation- as demonstrated by the tropical
retentions seen among Cro-Magnons, and older European types.
Ambrose may be right but humans were adapting to
climates all along. I don't see Africans moderns
having any more trouble than anyone else per se.
If the tropically adapted migrants eventually adapted
to European environments why would they have trouble
in the Levant?
Based on what time frames and context?

You got email.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
^ this bogus argument was already dispelled a year ago,

See Guatemala has a small population of African descent people. And some have been absorbed into the Native population.

Also the growth itself has nothing to do with tropical adaption etc....


Sone Indian guy once told me that Pakistan are taller than Indian. Because Pakistan are carnivores and eat more meat, were as Indians (Hindus) are mostly vegetarian.


quote:
These claims of race-based human taxonomy, including Coon’s time thresholds for homo-sapienation, have been discredited by paleontological and genomic research showing the antiquity of modern human origins within Africa, as well as the essential genomic African nature of all living human beings[...]

Coon’s claim that African pygmies have “achondroplastic proportions” is also wrong. Shea and Bailey[...]show that African pygmies are reduced in overall size and have a body shape that is allometrically proportional to the size reduction..



--Barry Bogin* and Maria Inęs Varela-Silva,
Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Int J Environ Res Public Healthv.7(3); Mar 2010PMC2872302



You call an argument made by Barry Bogin about Guatemala bogus yet you also quote Barry Bogin to support your argument.
This makes me think you don't read the articles you use for an argument maybe you just read snippets.

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

[QUOTE]Peoples who live in similar climatic zones will have the same body width, no matter how tall or short they are, because they have the same surface area to body mass ratios (Fig. 6.15).

--- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin, Page 146 [/qb]

limb ratios and body width are two different things

non-pygmy Africans who live in the same latitude as pygmies have much higher limb ratios.
The proportion changes according to size - allometry

-not Isometry where the proportion remains the same regardless of a change in size

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] ^^Good link Patrol. And re Holiday- we can see from
his study..

 -


These charts can't be used to make a blanket statement about Europeans because Southern European countries such as Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are not accounted for

The shocking thing is the position of Nubia

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Son of Ra
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@Lioness

Southern Europeans are basically the SAME as Northern Europeans. There is very LITTLE genetic difference between the two. On people from Iberia have slight genetic differences due to the Moorish occupation. Southern Europeans are still cold adapted.

I think the chart is just right.

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mena7
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Southern European have more black African blood then Northern European due to their African origin in prehistory and ancient history. They didn't mixed strongly with the white Eurasian immigrant of the 5 cent CE comparative to the Northern European.

--------------------
mena

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