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Author Topic: Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Lioness

Southern Europeans are basically the SAME as Northern Europeans. There is very LITTLE genetic difference between the two. On people from Iberia have slight genetic differences due to the Moorish occupation. Southern Europeans are still cold adapted.

I think the chart is just right.

It's funny because she was the first one to use the chard. Now that it works against her. It is all of a sudden "invalid". [Confused]
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
^ this bogus argument was already dispelled a year ago,

See Guatemala has a small population of African descent people. And some have been absorbed into the Native population.

Also the growth itself has nothing to do with tropical adaption etc....


Sone Indian guy once told me that Pakistan are taller than Indian. Because Pakistan are carnivores and eat more meat, were as Indians (Hindus) are mostly vegetarian.


[QUOTE] These claims of race-based human taxonomy, including Coon’s time thresholds for homo-sapienation, have been discredited by paleontological and genomic research showing the antiquity of modern human origins within Africa, as well as the essential genomic African nature of all living human beings[...]

Coon’s claim that African pygmies have “achondroplastic proportions” is also wrong. Shea and Bailey[...]show that African pygmies are reduced in overall size and have a body shape that is allometrically proportional to the size reduction..



--Barry Bogin* and Maria Inês Varela-Silva,
Leg Length, Body Proportion, and Health: A Review with a Note on Beauty

Int J Environ Res Public Healthv.7(3); Mar 2010PMC2872302



You call an argument made by Barry Bogin about Guatemala bogus yet you also quote Barry Bogin to support your argument.
This makes me think you don't read the articles you use for an argument maybe you just read snippets.

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Peoples who live in similar climatic zones will have the same body width, no matter how tall or short they are, because they have the same surface area to body mass ratios (Fig. 6.15).
--- Principles of Human Evolution
2013 By Robert Andrew Foley, Roger Lewin, Page 146


limb ratios and body width are two different things

non-pygmy Africans who live in the same latitude as pygmies have much higher limb ratios.
The proportion changes according to size - allometry

-not Isometry where the proportion remains the same regardless of a change in size [/QB]

No, I call your argument bogus. For interpreting differently. For always altering and twisting things! That's why!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are not accounted for

Steppe hosts of Mongolia, or aliens from mythical "lost Atlantis"
are not accounted for either, but their inclusion
won't make a dime's worth of difference, to the
overall results pattern. Let's see you post
some data on the southern Europeans.. The ball is
in your court.

And a relative difference in Nubian positioning reflects
different datasets and methods between Holliday
and other studies- but ultimately, it doesn't make
any difference either. The AEs cluster more with
other African populations..
Sorry...

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
Southern European have more black African blood then Northern European due to their African origin in prehistory and ancient history. They didn't mixed strongly with the white Eurasian immigrant of the 5 cent CE comparative to the Northern European.

The only Southern Europeans that have 'black' in them are people of the Iberian peninsula.
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Lioness

Southern Europeans are basically the SAME as Northern Europeans. There is very LITTLE genetic difference between the two. On people from Iberia have slight genetic differences due to the Moorish occupation. Southern Europeans are still cold adapted.

I think the chart is just right.

It's funny because she was the first one to use the chard. Now that it works against her. It is all of a sudden "invalid". [Confused]
The chart is definitely valid...
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
[QB] Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are not accounted for

Steppe hosts of Mongolia, or aliens from mythical "lost Atlantis"
are not accounted for either, but their inclusion
won't make a dime's worth of difference, to the
overall results pattern. Let's see you post
some data on the southern Europeans.. The ball is
in your court.

I haven't drawn any conclusions because I can't find numerical data for South European limb ratios or Near Eastern limb ratios, I'm talking raw data figures not what somebody said.
I think there may not even be reliable numerical data on some of these popualtions.
I am aware of
(Stringer and Gamble), 1993, -Yugoslavian limb ratios 83.75%
(Terry) Raxter 2006 U.S. -Blacks, 83.0%
(Robins/Shute) Egyptian Pharoahs 82.4%

hoiw's that for setting expectatiosn backwards?

Your position is that you haven't seen the data on Southern European limb ratios but you already know what it is.

I would rather wait and see

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Djehuti
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^ Either way, the conclusions will be the same. Southern Europeans are cold adapted compared to Africans.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Lioness

Southern Europeans are basically the SAME as Northern Europeans. There is very LITTLE genetic difference between the two. On people from Iberia have slight genetic differences due to the Moorish occupation. Southern Europeans are still cold adapted.

I think the chart is just right.

It's funny because she was the first one to use the chart. Now that it works against her. It is all of a sudden "invalid". [Confused]
LOL @ the lyinass. [Big Grin]

As for the Nubian sample in the dendogram.
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

This [Nubian sample] is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al


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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Lioness

Southern Europeans are basically the SAME as Northern Europeans. There is very LITTLE genetic difference between the two. On people from Iberia have slight genetic differences due to the Moorish occupation. Southern Europeans are still cold adapted.

I think the chart is just right.

It's funny because she was the first one to use the chard. Now that it works against her. It is all of a sudden "invalid". [Confused]
The chart is definitely valid...
Don't mind the babble box.

quote:
"During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts.

Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization."

http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/Kobusiewicz.pdf
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[LOL @ the lyinass. [Big Grin]


 -
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Either way, the conclusions will be the same. Southern Europeans are cold adapted compared to Africans.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Lioness

Southern Europeans are basically the SAME as Northern Europeans. There is very LITTLE genetic difference between the two. On people from Iberia have slight genetic differences due to the Moorish occupation. Southern Europeans are still cold adapted.

I think the chart is just right.

It's funny because she was the first one to use the chart. Now that it works against her. It is all of a sudden "invalid". [Confused]
LOL @ the lyinass. [Big Grin]

As for the Nubian sample in the dendogram.
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

This [Nubian sample] is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al


And that's a fact!
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

This [Nubian sample] is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

And that's a fact!
where's the proof that it is a fact that Holliday 2013 used the same sample as Hanihara 2003 ?

I'm asking you not Swenet

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

This [Nubian sample] is the same sample that in Hanihara et al 2003 clustered away from the Naqada Giza and Kerma subcluster, and instead with with French and other Europeans. Its Christian era and postulated to be mixed with Middle Eastern elements.

Hanihara 2003 et al

And that's a fact!
where's the proof that it is a fact that Holliday 2013 used the same sample as Hanihara 2003 ?

I'm asking you not Swenet

LOL why should I answer you. You never reply when you are asked for an explanation on your stance. You simply go into your Eurocentric I feel superior ignore mode. Well, guess what, I go into ignore mode!
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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Trying to distract the attention away from the fact that the piece you're responding to points out what a big fat liar you are, huh? No biggie, if you insist in getting educated: I had recently posted an excerpt from Holiday 1999 saying limb proportions can be a poor predictor of limb length, which is what limb proportions ultimately try to get to the bottom to

Your poor excuse for a response shows how biggie of deal that question was, and corroborates my point that you've been wishing away the prospect of tropically-adaption in Mesolithic Maghrebi series. No? Point to me, an instance where one comes across "tropical limb proportions" without that relating to a tropical body plan.

Limb proportions may not predict the actual length of the limbs a priori, but high brachial and crural indexes are a very good indicator of tropical adaptation or a tropical body plan.

quote:
It can also a poor predictor of trunk height per Holiday. But you wouldn't know, being the uneducated troll you are.
What a dumbass! Of course limb proportions cannot predict the trunk height, because they (body segments) are not even the same thing. Why would you assume that anyone else is as filthy dumb as you are, so as to make the stupid connection you are describing above?
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Explorador
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Your astronomic stupidity goes through the roof. You don't even know that a set of digits with the tilde symbol behind it in this context depicts an approximation. No surprise, really, with all your other recent phuckups bathing in broad daylight.

My "astronomic stupidity" could not be as astronomic as your's. Otherwise, you wouldn't have made such a big deal about an "approximation", and one with essentially little difference at that, from the value you were making such a fuss about.

quote:
I'm sure that that's why you posted it. Cause, lord knows, your desperate hammering on their limb data in the absence of even a hint of opposition to their limb data (other than the opposition you fabricated with your lie), and in light of the other data posted in this thread (The Afalou/Circumpolar cluster), isn't exactly jiving with the hard data at hand, showing them to cluster away from Africans where the multivariate data is concerned.
They cannot be "clustering away from Africans" on the account of the tropical body proportions or tropical body plan, which is what you've been denying for a while...that any such affinity exists.

You have been hell bent on saying that they only had affinities with Europeans, when in fact if anything ,it is both the Mesolithic Maghrebi and UP Europeans who would cluster with "Africans" before they did with Europeans in their average body plans and limb proportions.


quote:
Which, as late as the proportions still appear, further stamps in the ground your pseudo-scientific idea that IM limb proportions further your hopeless cause, especially in light of Holiday 2013's multivariate analysis.
Rather than reading the underhanded point that you were comparing apples with oranges, you've come up with a misguided conclusion. Why would a retention of tropical limb proportions render my cause "hopeless"? It certainly doesn't advance your cause that the EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi were some little lost Europeans in Africa, does it?


quote:
No, troll. Too late for damage controll. You were asked what linearity has to do with ''long lower-limb bones''. And no, me drilling on this issue isn't going to stop until you admit what a fraud you are.
The longer the limbs, the more linear the body is likely to be.

Of course, you didn't know this, because you were/are trying to learn what body linearity is, albeit in underhanded way of trying to pretend you are challenging me with a question, when you are really begging to get schooled. This is why the point made about the pygmies caught you off-guard, compelling you to protest without having the slightest clue about what you were protesting.

quote:
No need to dance around the issue, as those in the know are already aware of the fact that neither of Holiday's three visualizations of his multivariate analysis utilize or incorporate limb proportion indices; they are predicated on measurements (breadths, lengths and diameters, etc). Yes indeed, your posts smack of idiocy. Now, to get back on topic, how is the description below fig 5 consistent with the idea that it's depicting population relationships in limb proportions?
You trying to cover up your lack of knowledge with a distracting question. How does one determine body shape without factoring in the limb proportions? I mean, I knew what I was talking about, when I conditioned about the "allusion" to "limb proportions"; there is no indication you know exactly why you protested, other than just to be disagreeable, so you can start pretending to look smart and call me wacky kindergarten-like names.

quote:
Face it, you thought you had the data behind you when you made the retarded insinuation that San limb proportions discredit fig 5, when the premise that insinuation is based on had been put to sleep by Holiday as early as 1999, and a host of other authors documenting that limb proportions don't have the last say in the matter.
How does Holliday "put to rest", the finding of sub-tropical limb proportion index among the San?

quote:
That you laugh at the fact that this very ancient fact makes your comment obsolete is further evidence of the fact that you're a total fraud.
So, me "laughing" at your subsequent posts makes my earlier comment about San limb proportions "obsolete"? [Big Grin]


quote:
Well, since you insist on trolling and lying, **prove** that the position of the Pygmy sample conformed to the following dictionary description of 'outlier' in the dendrograms that 2009 excerpt discusses. Perhaps you're better at gawking at dendrogram images than letters:
I don't have to dumbass, because that is what the Holliday piece was essentially saying. Perhaps you should be busy learning what an outlier is, rather than reminding people of what an illiterate fool you are.

quote:
Troll, the Holiday 1997 piece I cited makes direct references to commonalities between the North African sample and the Pygmy sample, which, according to Holiday, makes them cluster.
This is still the dumbass red herring now as it was when you first posted it in response to a citation you couldn't understand. There is no indication that any more effort at making you understand will make you any less dumb...ever!
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
No? Point to me, an instance where one comes across "tropical limb proportions" without that relating to a tropical body plan.

You yourself have cited an exerpt stating that the Pygmy and the Nubian sample are ''less linear'', in spite of their clearly tropically adapted limbs, you phucking degenerate troll! They have tropical limbs, which is not so much attested in their overal bodyplan. Note: they're both more tropically adapted that the Afalou sample in multivariate space, as seen in fig 5, yet, the Afalou sample is supposedly not an outlier sample according to the crack infested heap you call your brain?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
My "astronomic stupidity" could not be as astronomic as your's. Otherwise, you wouldn't have made such a big deal about an "approximation", and one with essentially little difference at that, from the value you were making such a fuss about.

This is just a manupulative non-reply to obfuscate the fact that things got to the all time low where you needed to be schooled on what the tilde symbol exactly is.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Of course limb proportions cannot predict the trunk height, because they (body segments) are not even the same thing.

That's why your dumbass is the earth shattering buffoon that you are. Here above, you admit that trunk measurements may not co-vary with limb proportions ''because they are not the same thing'', yet a few seconds prior to writing this self-assured post, your dumbass was bewildered by the suggestion that limb proportions may yield different results than the overall bodyplan. Has to be verge of disintegrating into a brain-dead vegetable, this ''The Explorer'' character.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
They cannot be "clustering away from Africans" on the account of the tropical body proportions or tropical body plan

Another manipulative device, intended to buy time and make it seem like you didn't get your buttocks handed to you a couple of exchanges ago. The piece you're replying to talks about the fact that the IM clusters away from Sub-Saharan Africans in multivariate analysis, and your glaring inability to come to grips with that fact. You're merely confirming my reading of the situation with this post.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You have been hell bent on saying that they only had affinities with Europeans, when in fact if anything ,it is both the Mesolithic Maghrebi and UP Europeans who would cluster with "Africans" before they did with Europeans in their average body plans

Prove it, liar!

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Rather than reading the underhanded point that you were comparing apples with oranges

Pointing out the fact that it doesn't mean much that IM have tropical limp proportions because most, if not all, Late Upper Palaeolihic Eurasian samples still did, is '''comparing apples with oranges'', simply because some of the European comparative material was younger than the IM remains? Tell me, how did this shitty line of reasoning by-pass your frontal lobe, if not that its just barely functioning?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
It certainly doesn't advance your cause that the EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi were some little lost Europeans in Africa, does it?

What claim it doesn't advance, is your insinuated claim that the IM limb proportions would have been any different in the scenario that they came out of Eurasia. It is this specific claim that I'm tackling by using Mesolithic European limb data, and you have yet to come to grips with this inconvenient truth.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The longer the limbs, the more linear the body is likely to be.

You're such a troll. You're being told again and again that this doesn't hold up for specimen whose limb ratios contrast with their overall bodyplan, because the former is still in a pleisiomorphic state. Besides, your dumbass used the IM limb proportions as a proxy for considering them ''linear''. How did this work out for your dumbass, given the fact that the ''less linear'' Nubians and Pygmies used in this study are certainly more tropically adapted than the Afalou sample?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How does one determine body shape without factoring in the limb proportions?

That's what you were just schooled on, and, was totally unable to refute. Despite of your glaring inability to refute what I'm saying, you still choose to reiterate the same sentiment that was thrashed an exchange ago. The true mark of a megatroll: simply ignoring past thrashings and reposting the stuff that got you thrashed in the first place.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How does Holliday "put to rest", the finding of sub-tropical limb proportion index among the San?

Another lie and manipulative distraction to get away from the fact that you can't refute that Holiday 1999 demonstrated that limb proportions don't predict bodyplan, and that this exposes your horribly failed attempt to use San limb ratios as valid grounds to attempt to discredit fig 5, simply because it wasn't in agreement with the wishful emotion-based image you had of the Afalou.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I don't have to dumbass

Translation: ''don't mind me, I'm just doing my usual round of making up sh!t as I go along. Nothing new here''. Repeat: prove that you're even close to having a clue about what you're rambling about, and prove that the Pygmy sample doesn't cluster with North Africans in that paper. Here is your chance to shine, what are you waiting for, fraud?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
because that is what the Holliday piece was essentially saying.

Lying out your ass. Other than what your emotion-based vested interests lead you to read into the excerpt, The Holiday piece said Pygmies and their Nubian sample were ''less linear'' relative to the other African groups, without any statement pertaining to the degree of the distance between what Holiday termed ''linear'' and ''less linear''.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
This is still the dumbass red herring now as it was when you first posted it in response to a citation you couldn't understand.

The only thing that's a red herring is your crackpot notion that ''less linear'' is tantamount to ''outlier''. The irony! My citation from Holiday, which points out the existence of post-cranial relationships between Pygmies and North Africans, and that actually vindicates fig 5, is somehow a red herring, but your ''outlier'' fabrication, which is based on nothing other than the fact that you're a degenerate who doesn't even own the paper, is gospel. Such a lying troll, and unashamedly so.
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Swenet
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Three more glaringly stupid claims led to the following investigations in your credibility, that you're running away from, ''Explorer''. You didn't think I wouldn't notice the fact that you chickened out of replying, did you?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I asked you a question, troll. No further stalling. What the hell is ''linear in stature''?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Now, to get back on topic, how is the description below fig 5 consistent with the idea that it's depicting population relationships in limb proportions?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I have already gone through Trenton's "Body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample", but subsequently lost the paper when my computer crashed earlier in the year.

Please inform us about this paper you're referring to. What are the full specifics of the paper? Publication date, journal, etc.

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the lioness,
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http://anthropology.ua.edu/blogs/emmakoenig/page/2/

"So, large animals should live in cold climates because there is less SA to lose heat from and smaller animals should live in warm climates because they can increase heat dispersion (Bergmann’s). Furthermore, species living in tropical climates should have a linear body plan with most mass in the limbs (long legs) and less in the trunk (~Short torso) to dissipate heat, whereas, Arctic species should have large trunks (~long torso) and short limbs to conserve heat (Allan’s)."


In 1953 D.F. Roberts did a study to test these two rules. He looked at 116 males from around the world and found that there was a negative correlation between body mass and average temperature based on Relative Sitting Height (RSH=sitting height/stature) people in cold climates as compared to warm climates had short legs but larger RSH.

In 1998 the authors did the same type of study using a sample of 223 males and 198 females from around the world and compared it to Robert’ 116 males. The same results as Roberts’ were found but the negative regression slopes were much shallower. In addition the authors calculated the Body Mass Index (BMI=weight (kg)/height (m^2)) and body surface area (using the Bailey and Briars equation pg. 158).

RESULTS:

- When compared to Roberts’ sample, males were taller and heavier with lower SA:mass ratio. This says overweight and obesity (BMI ≥ 25kg/m^2) has risen from 3.4% to 12.2%.

- Roberts had no female data but as expected compared to males, females are shorter and lighter but have higher SA/mass ratio with a 15.6% prevalence of overweight and obesity.

- For all groups (Roberts, males and females) as body weight decreases, mean temperature increases.

- For all groups as BMI decreases, mean temperature increases.

- For all groups as SA/mass increases so does mean temperature.

- For males and females of the current sample RSH decreases as temperature increases

Overall, the results show that body mass has increased disproportionately in the tropics than the rest of the world. Body weight in the current sample is 50% larger in populations of warm climates as compared to cold climates and BMIs are twice as large as the cold climate counterparts. Again, even though there has been a relative trend for increasing body mass from 1953-1998 the tropics show disproportionately larger results.

PROBLEMS WITH BMI

The BMI is the most widely used standard in assessing nutritional status around the world for adults.
The problem with using BMI is that it does not take into account body proportions and morphology. So someone very tall may be considered undernourished according to BMI when actually healthy because the ratio of height to weight causes the disparity. The example given by the authors compares Australian Aborigines and Inuit.

“…Australian Aborigines studied before the 1970s had very low BMIs, suggestive of chronic undernutrition, yet had skinfold thicknesses that indicated adequate nutritional status. Conversely, early work among Inuit men and women has shown that despite having BMIs that were at or above the threshold for “overweight,” they were relatively lean, as reflected in both skinfold measures and estimates of body fatness from hydrostatic weighing.” (164)

By correlating climate, BMI, RSH and skinfolds it was found that morphological differences directly related to climate significantly influenced BMI results. Individuals in cold climates are leaner than BMI expectancies while individuals in warm climates are fatter than BMI expectancies. Take Home= body proportions need to be taken into account when assessing BMI for nutritional status and additional anthropometric measures should be used as well.

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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

You yourself have cited an exerpt stating that the Pygmy and the Nubian sample are ''less linear'', in spite of their clearly tropically adapted limbs, you phucking degenerate troll!

More evidence that fuckhead does not understand what body linearity is. The "less linear" body of the pygmies does not absolve them from a tropical body plan, dummy.


quote:
They have tropical limbs, which is not so much attested in their overal bodyplan. Note: they're both more tropically adapted that the Afalou sample in multivariate space, as seen in fig 5, yet, the Afalou sample is supposedly not an outlier sample according to the crack infested heap you call your brain?
Nothing mentioned about the Afalou being an outlier or otherwise, fuckheaded gorilla; just your fat-ass' habit of chasing after the imaginery.

quote:
That's why your dumbass is the earth shattering buffoon that you are.
You say something incredibly stupid, and then you figure someone else is a buffoon for what you said.

quote:

Here above, you admit that trunk measurements may not co-vary with limb proportions ''because they are not the same thing'', yet a few seconds prior to writing this self-assured post, your dumbass was bewildered by the suggestion that limb proportions may yield different results than the overall bodyplan.

Your filthy butt obviously emits more nerve activity than your blockhead; one cannot admit to a concept that wasn't denied [i.e. trunk being different from limbs], but that confused you, numbnut.

Secondly, the body plan factors in limb proportions, which your ass-head would know nothing about--as evidenced by repeated unfulfilled requests to show otherwise; trunk and limbs are not the same thing; try getting that hammered into your shithead.

quote:
The piece you're replying to talks about the fact that the IM clusters away from Sub-Saharan Africans in multivariate analysis
Analysis which must not be speaking merely to limb proportions or body plan respectively, as other cited reports indicate.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You have been hell bent on saying that they only had affinities with Europeans, when in fact if anything ,it is both the Mesolithic Maghrebi and UP Europeans who would cluster with "Africans" before they did with Europeans in their average body plans

Prove it, liar!
No problem, fuckhead: Europeans generally have lower limb ratios and/or limb/trunk ratios than either the Mesolithic Maghrebi or the UP Europeans.

You are so thick in that primitive skull, that you don't even recall your own quotes making this very clear.

quote:
Pointing out the fact that it doesn't mean much that IM have tropical limp proportions because most, if not all, Late Upper Palaeolihic Eurasian samples still did
You must be suffering from on/off-switch amnesia. In the post just above, it would appear this fact had not ever crossed your poor resolution radar.

quote:
What claim it doesn't advance, is your insinuated claim that the IM limb proportions would have been any different in the scenario that they came out of Eurasia.
numbnutted neanderthal, in fact it does [advance]. The Mesolithic Europeans, as your recitation says, had "shortened" limbs; by contrast, the Mesolithic Maghrebi, as indicated, feature long limbs. Apples and oranges, dumbass.

quote:
You're such a troll. You're being told again and again that this doesn't hold up for specimen whose limb ratios contrast with their overall bodyplan, because the former is still in a pleisiomorphic state.
Explain how the "limb ratios contrast" with "their" overall body plan, and how this somehow renders limb proportions "a non-factor" in body linearity. The answer to this, will undoubtedly be another reminder of the kind of peerless idiot you are.

quote:
Besides, your dumbass used the IM limb proportions as a proxy for considering them ''linear''.
fuckhead, it is not a "proxy"; it is a determinant. Learn the difference.

quote:

How did this work out for your dumbass, given the fact that the ''less linear'' Nubians and Pygmies used in this study are certainly more tropically adapted than the Afalou sample?

It's working out just fine, given your post is just irrelevant shitheaded talk, which belies your charade of knowing what body linearity is.

As for being "more tropically adapted than the Afalou sample", go ahead and tell away how that was specifically determined.

quote:
That's what you were just schooled on, and, was totally unable to refute. Despite of your glaring inability to refute what I'm saying, you still choose to reiterate the same sentiment that was thrashed an exchange ago. The true mark of a megatroll: simply ignoring past thrashings and reposting the stuff that got you thrashed in the first place.
I see you being such a queer Spongebob cry-baby panties above; not an iota about how body shape can be determined without consideration to limbs. Trying to give lessons on steep stupidity is not "schooling".


quote:
Another lie and manipulative distraction to get away from the fact that you can't refute that Holiday 1999 demonstrated that limb proportions don't predict bodyplan
How does say, tropical limb proportions, not predict body plan. Have you come across "cold-adapted" body plans with tropical limb ratios or vice versa?

quote:

and that this exposes your horribly failed attempt to use San limb ratios as valid grounds to attempt to discredit fig 5, simply because it wasn't in agreement with the wishful emotion-based image you had of the Afalou.

The so-called "attempt" cannot be deemed "failed", since it has neither been positively demonstrated that the San generally have a "tropical body plan", nor that recalled limb proportions are not so. You simply offered serial toothless whino-responses about the limb proportion reference being "obsolete", which you haven't been able to rationalize to date.

quote:
Lying out your ass. Other than what your emotion-based vested interests lead you to read into the excerpt, The Holiday piece said Pygmies and their Nubian sample were ''less linear'' relative to the other African groups, without any statement pertaining to the degree of the distance between what Holiday termed ''linear'' and ''less linear''.
You are the only idiot on this planet who can mistake people schooling you on a simple excerpt for lying.
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quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The "less linear" body of the pygmies does not absolve them from a tropical body plan, dummy.

Of course it does; in your sick interpretation of Holiday, re: ''Pygmies are outliers''. Lying troll.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Nothing mentioned about the Afalou being an outlier or otherwise, fuckheaded gorilla; just your fat-ass' habit of chasing after the imaginery.

Of course your lying ass didn't; that was my entire point. Your inherently immoral lying ass nature prevents you from applying the same ''outlier'' status to the Afalou, that you did not hesitate to apply to the more tropically adapted Nubian and Pygmy sample.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
one cannot admit to a concept that wasn't denied [i.e. trunk being different from limbs], but that confused you, numbnut.

Lying troll, you're not responding to the catastrophic predicament you're in; re: the inherent contradiction in your admission that trunk height may totally contradict limb proportions, which was bizarrely followed by what can only be described as bewildered emotion-based opposition to the idea that bodyplan may display the same pattern in relationship to limb proportions, as seen in the Nubian, Pygmy and Afalou.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Secondly, the body plan factors in limb proportions

Another blatant lie, that I exposed as such earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Analysis which must not be speaking merely to limb proportions or body plan respectively, as other cited reports indicate.

See this people? This is what a pathologically lying troll looks like. This fraud still has to audacity to claim that fig 5 in the opening posts doesn't depict the Afalou among cold adapted samples in bodyplan.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Europeans generally have lower limb ratios and/or limb/trunk ratios than either the Mesolithic Maghrebi or the UP Europeans.

Lying dog, neither of these evasive distractions prove what you initially claimed without a shred of evidence to back it up, re: '',it is both the Mesolithic Maghrebi and UP Europeans who would cluster with "Africans" before they did with Europeans in their average body plans''. Where is the evidence?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
In the post just above, it would appear this fact had not ever crossed your poor resolution radar.

Lying dog, what you wrote ''just above'' makes a worthless retarded claim pertaining to bodyplans, and doesn't even begin to address the inconvenient bummer that Ibero-Maurusian limb ratios would have been no different in the scenario that they came out of Eurasia, given the similar or even higher limb ratios in comparative Late Upper Palaeolithic Eurasian fossils.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
fuckhead, it is not a "proxy"; it is a determinant. Learn the difference.

Lying dog, it has already been brought to your attention that tropical ratios in the case of Mesolithic Europeans weren't even determinative for absolute limb length, let alone body shape. I'm highly appreciative of your very generous supply of evidence, to me and the forum, that you have no idea what the phuck you're talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
it's working out just fine, given your post is just irrelevant shitheaded talk, which belies your charade of knowing what body linearity is.

This is just fake and empty accusing to make it seem like you have something to say. I was well aware enough of the definition to instantly call your invocation of ''linear in stature'' out for the crackpot mumbo jumbo that it is. Getting back on topic; specifically how does it work out for you that the Afalou are ''linear in stature'' (lol), when they cluster with ''less linear'' samples in fig 5?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
As for being "more tropically adapted than the Afalou sample", go ahead and tell away how that was specifically determined.

How about fig 5, posted in the opening post of this thread, troll. Is your senile dumbass asleep or something? SMH.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
not an iota about how body shape can be determined without consideration to limbs.

Aside from the fact that your rehashed lie that ''body shape cannot be determined without limb data'' is just another example in a long line of fabrications on your part (Bergman's rule can be established independently of Allen's rule), you're also pathetically deluding yourself into believing that your not so subtle switch from your initial ''limb proportion'' to ''limbs'' is going unnoticed. Bottom line, you were already schooled on the fact that Holiday's multi-variate analysis is not predicated on limb ratios. You ignored this part if my posts, yet still go on to perpetuate this fat ass lie, like the lying dog that you are.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How does say, tropical limb proportions, not predict body plan. Have you come across "cold-adapted" body plans with tropical limb ratios or vice versa?

Dumbass troll, who has to be on crack to still not have realized by now that the Afalou sample is conforming to exactly what you're asking of me in fig 5 in the OP, have you ever bothered getting your neurone firing rate checked? You are slower than a sedated Sloth.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The so-called "attempt" cannot be deemed "failed", since it has neither been positively demonstrated that the San generally have a "tropical body plan"

Lying dumbass Sloth, I said that your attempt to use the said data as valid grounds to do what you did in that unfortunate moment of profound obtuseness, failed. Big difference. Other than that, how would fig 5 not qualify as a demonstration that the San have a tropically adapted bodyplan, troll?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are the only idiot on this planet who can mistake people schooling you on a simple excerpt for lying.

No more evasive distractions; explain RIGHT NOW what crack-induced figment led you to conclude ''outliers'' were spoken of in Holiday's distinction between ''linear'' and ''less linear''?
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the lioness,
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TEST

linear =

a) longer

b) thinner

c) both longer and thinner

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the lioness,
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The most noticeable differences between chimpanzees and pygmy chimpanzees are the following: short legs, broad feet
-Endangered species
Wolfgang Ullrich ‎1972

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
TEST

linear =

a) longer

b) thinner

c) both longer and thinner

A Linear shape means having a body that's rectangular-like from front view, with relatively little laterally projecting curves combined with a less defined waistline, while a non-linear body shape is more like the stereotyped female coke bottle figure, which, as you know, does have more laterally prominent curves and thinner waists. Classical perceptions of typically male and female bodies are good at illustrating this difference. Compare:

 -

It has nothing to do with stature, as has been claimed by the Explorer troll who is fabricating damn near everything he says.

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what about this:

" Bi-iliac breadth, or bi-cristal breadth, as it is sometimes called, is
measured as the transverse diameter of the superior margin of the
pelvic girdle. This raw measurement is correlated with climatic
variables [Crognier, 1981 ; Ruff, 1994], but its fit with climate and/or
geography significantly improves when it is scaled to a linear dimen-
sion of the body such as stature [Roberts. 1978; Ruff, 1991. 1993,
1994].
For the samples presented here, stature is unknown, and
therefore must be predicted from long bone length, e.g. femoral
length. In such cases, then, predicted stature is each individual's
femoral length subsequent to an arithmetic manipulation, [i.e., femo-
ral length x slope, +Y-intercept]. Such prediction formulae inevitably
introduce error into the analysis, however, since biologically speak-
ing, many individuals are expected to fall well above or well below
the predictive line. Thus, to avoid the introduction of further error,
stature is not predicted for this analysis, but rather, femoral length
[which is highly correlated with stature] is used in its stead"

____________________________________________

With regard to body shape or proportions, there are several means
by which these features may be accurately reconstructed from
skeletal remains; these means approximate some of the anthropometric
data taken on living human subjects. The measures that are
used in this study reflect the following: 1 ] intralimb proportions [i.e.,
relative lengths of the proximal and distal limb segments], 2] limb/
trunk proportions, 3] body linearity relative to overall body mass,
and 4] body breadth relative to stature. For all analyses, Gough's
Cave 1 is compared to other Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene
associated skeletons as well as to a large sample of recent humans
from across the western Old World [Africa and Europe]. The fossils
have been placed into Mesolithic [< 10,000 BP], Late Upper
Paleolithic [LUP; 1 1,000-19,000 BP], Early Upper Paleolithic [EUP;
20,000-28,000 BP] and Neandertal [> 30,000 BP] samples, while
the recent humans have been placed into three geographical
subsamples: Europe, North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa. Detailed
discussion of these samples is found in Holliday [1995].


- Bulletin of
The Natural History Museum
HENA.tmrai
j HISTORY MUSEUM
Geology Series
VOLUME 58 NUMBER 1 27 JUNE 2002
The Bulletin of The Natural History Museum [formerly: Bulletin of the British Museum
[Natural History] ],

http://archive.org/stream/bulletinofnatura58natu/bulletinofnatura58natu_djvu.txt

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What about it? It simply says that bi-iliac breadth yields a more powerful correlation with latitude when juxtaposed with height, which makes sense. A lot of measurements are influenced by stature. For example, a person's large bi-iliac breadth may simply be a reflection of their tall stature. If you scale such a tall person down to the size of smaller person with a more narrow bi-iliac breadth, they may be very similar. This is the case with Pygmies, too. If you scale the 'typical' Mbuti's body up to 1.70m, you'd probably probably see more affinity with Mediterranean populations than with many Sub-Saharan Africans in their trunk related measurements.
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
What about it? It simply says that bi-iliac breadth yields a more powerful correlation with latitude when juxtaposed with height, which makes sense. A lot of measurements are influenced by stature. For example, a person's large bi-iliac breadth may simply be a reflection of their tall stature. If you scale such a tall person down to the size of smaller person with a more narrow bi-iliac breadth, they may be very similar. This is the case with Pygmies, too. If you scale the 'typical' Mbuti's body up to 1.70m, you'd probably probably see more affinity with Mediterranean populations than with many Sub-Saharan Africans in their trunk related measurements.

that sounds right but they did say " a linear dimen-
sion of the body such as stature "
This says stature is a 'linear' dimension

The term 'linear' is common in these articles, is not so easy to pin down. It is not a term in anthropolgy glossaries I've seen

From what I've been researching, in my opinion it simply means "thin" in physical anthropolgy.

It is indirectly associated with stature in that it tends to occur at the same time as tall stature. -my opinion

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
that sounds right but they did say " a linear dimen-
sion of the body such as stature "
This says stature is a 'linear' dimension

But body type is not a dimension--you know that right? Also, you do know that both the populations described as ''linear'' as well as the populations described as ''less linear'' by Holiday have ''a linear dimension of the body such as stature'', right? Who doesn't have ''a linear dimension such as stature''?

Linear dimensions, or linear units, measure the distance between two points. Since two points define a line, the units of distance are sometimes called "linear" units or dimensions.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_linear_dimensions


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
From what I've been researching, in my opinion it simply means "thin" in physical anthropolgy.

Agree. It shows a strong association with what the piece you cited earlier said about body breadth. Body breadth, in turn, is an expression of the laterally prominent curves I mentioned earlier.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
It is indirectly associated with stature in that it tends to occur at the same time as tall stature. -my opinion

Your opinion is at odds with the hard data on the table. The native people in my country are among, if not the tallest people on average in Europe and in the world, but they certainly aren't linear on average. The tropically adapted people on the other side of fig 5 aren't particularly tall, and the shortest sample (Pygmies) occupies a position that's not distant from the middle.
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Of course it does; in your sick interpretation of Holiday, re: ''Pygmies are outliers''. Lying troll.

You are still showing how utterly absentminded you are about body shape items, dumbfuck.

All the same, detail how body linearity turns pygmies into some supposed non-tropically adapted transplants of sub-Saharan Africa, trash head.

quote:
Of course your lying ass didn't; that was my entire point.
That would be nonsense for a point. You rely on what was not said to find something to rebuttal, when actual said items go unchallenged. What a fuckhead.

quote:

Your inherently immoral lying ass nature prevents you from applying the same ''outlier'' status to the Afalou, that you did not hesitate to apply to the more tropically adapted Nubian and Pygmy sample.

The Afalou, whatever tropical adapted traits they may have, are not "sub-Saharan" Africans, so they cannot be an oultier among sub-Saharan Africans, douchebag. However, if I were relying on Holliday's cited "neighbor-joining tree", and did not question its veracity, then they would stand out as an outlier among the African samples. However, I'm not taking that item for granted. Other reports indicate tropical body proportionality of the Afalou, and their affinity with other Mesolithic-early Holocene African specimens before they do other groups.

quote:
Lying troll, you're not responding to the catastrophic predicament you're in; re: the inherent contradiction in your admission that trunk height may totally contradict limb proportions
Who would respond to an irrelevant post the underscores your fuckheadedness? Body plan includes limbs; trunk on the other hand, does not include limb. You are an ass-wipe for confusing very two different concepts.

quote:
Another blatant lie, that I exposed as such earlier.
The nuttless Neanderthal thinks the idea of Body plan including limbs is a lie. What next? A spherical Earth is a lie.

quote:
See this people? This is what a pathologically lying troll looks like. This fraud still has to audacity to claim that fig 5 in the opening posts doesn't depict the Afalou among cold adapted samples in bodyplan.
This is the first time I've heard Afalou are "cold-dapted". Care to clue us with details of their body proportion indices, rendering them "cold-adapted".

quote:
Lying dog, neither of these evasive distractions prove what you initially claimed without a shred of evidence to back it up, re: '',it is both the Mesolithic Maghrebi and UP Europeans who would cluster with "Africans" before they did with Europeans in their average body plans''. Where is the evidence?
You wouldn't recognize proof if it pinched your queer ass. The fact that recent Europeans have lower body/limb and limb proportion indices does not constitute as self-explanatory proof to this knuckleheaded zombie.

quote:
Lying dog, what you wrote ''just above'' makes a worthless retarded claim pertaining to bodyplans, and doesn't even begin to address the inconvenient bummer that Ibero-Maurusian limb ratios would have been no different in the scenario that they came out of Eurasia, given the similar or even higher limb ratios in comparative Late Upper Palaeolithic Eurasian fossils.
The clueless tranny fag you are, it's not surprising that you are stumped by information contained in your own quoted pieces; the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans tend to have "shortened" limbs, notwithstanding their still higher indices than recent Europeans. Whereas the Mesolithic Maghrebi feature long limb bones, as their femora sizes indicate. They have higher femora size than the Natufians, who too sported higher limb indices than recent Europeans. If they were from Europe, they would have the same pattern as the late Paleolithic Europeans, dickhead. But hey, don't worry: prove that they have the same limb patterns as Late paleolithic Europeans.

You are the only clown in this universe, who uses tropical body adaptation features of ancient specimens as evidence against an African origin. LOL

quote:
]Lying dog, it has already been brought to your attention that tropical ratios in the case of Mesolithic Europeans weren't even determinative for absolute limb length, let alone body shape.
Body linearity is not "absolute limb length", idiot!

quote:
This is just fake and empty accusing to make it seem like you have something to say. I was well aware enough of the definition to instantly call your invocation of ''linear in stature'' out for the crackpot mumbo jumbo that it is.
Which is why you were dumbfounded at the prospect of pgymies being "less linear" and implicated as outlier among the "sub-Saharan" bunch, and even more humorously and ironically, went onto use this as evidence of a lack a of tropical body plan for pygmies. Fucking klutz.

quote:
Getting back on topic; specifically how does it work out for you that the Afalou are ''linear in stature'' (lol), when they cluster with ''less linear'' samples in fig 5?
You tell me, why the Afalou would be "less linear". What are the determinants here?

quote:
How about fig 5, posted in the opening post of this thread, troll. Is your senile dumbass asleep or something? SMH.
The figure doesn't tell me jack about the body shape or proportions of the Afalou, fatass. You worship that figure obviously, no doubt for ideological purposes; I don't take it for granted. It's then your duty to share the specifics that you seem to think helps your "Afalou be some little lost Europeans".

quote:
Aside from the fact that your rehashed lie that ''body shape cannot be determined without limb data'' is just another example in a long line of fabrications on your part (Bergman's rule can be established independently of Allen's rule), you're also pathetically deluding yourself into believing that your not so subtle switch from your initial ''limb proportion'' to ''limbs'' is going unnoticed.
Be my guest, bonehead: How does one get an idea of body shape, without its legs. Give me the scientific details of how this is achieved. I don't have to say "limb proportions", klutz; it's tacit. You don't even have the brains to get no-brainers.

quote:
Dumbass troll, who has to be on crack to still not have realized by now that the Afalou sample is conforming to exactly what you're asking of me in fig 5 in the OP, have you ever bothered getting your neurone firing rate checked? You are slower than a sedated Sloth.
So, the Afalou is an example of a "cold-adapted" group with "tropical limb proportions"; according to what set of factors? Lay them out.

quote:
Lying dumbass Sloth, I said that your attempt to use the said data as valid grounds to do what you did in that unfortunate moment of profound obtuseness, failed. Big difference. Other than that, how would fig 5 not qualify as a demonstration that the San have a tropically adapted bodyplan, troll?
Just having fun with the fact that your retarded ass called my reference to San limb proportion as "obsolete", all the while not having a lick of an idea as to what makes it so.

quote:
No more evasive distractions; explain RIGHT NOW what crack-induced figment led you to conclude ''outliers'' were spoken of in Holiday's distinction between ''linear'' and ''less linear''?
You are hopeless fruitcake. Ask a kindergartener to help you learn what an outlier is. I've exhausted my efforts in trying.
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

For example, a person's large bi-iliac breadth may simply be a reflection of their tall stature.

This reinforces that you a cluess tranny fag who cobbles together nonsense to appear artificially bright. Large bi-iliac breadth has no apparent relationship with tallness.

quote:

If you scale such a tall person down to the size of smaller person with a more narrow bi-iliac breadth, they may be very similar.

A load of malarkey.

quote:

This is the case with Pygmies, too. If you scale the 'typical' Mbuti's body up to 1.70m, you'd probably probably see more affinity with Mediterranean populations than with many Sub-Saharan Africans in their trunk related measurements.

Is this a piece of the crack you smoke in your pipe?
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

TEST

linear =

a) longer

b) thinner

c) both longer and thinner

A Linear shape means having a body that's rectangular-like from front view, with relatively little laterally projecting curves combined with a less defined waistline, while a non-linear body shape is more like the stereotyped female coke bottle figure, which, as you know, does have more laterally prominent curves and thinner waists. Classical perceptions of typically male and female bodies are good at illustrating this difference. Compare:

 -

It has nothing to do with stature, as has been claimed by the Explorer troll who is fabricating damn near everything he says.

To lionness "Test", I'd go for C as an approximate answer, which is what this transvestite moron above would do too, if there was a brain upstairs.

I take it, by the douchebag's comment, that the "less linear" pygmies must look like the "coca cola bottle" to the mofish idiot.

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 -

http://books.google.com/books?id=xryuw8sqNsoC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=

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Swenet
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^Indeed Lioness. Its self-evident that Pygmies aren't smaller scaled down versions of the tropically adapted Sub-Saharan Africans in their vicinity. That the ''Explorer'' not just denies, but vehemently denies this very basic reality, is just another example in a long line of epic fails coming from a masquerading pathologically lying fraud with a sup par understanding of physical anthropology. On every occasion where his comprehension of very simple anthropological concepts had the chance to shine, he failed miserably, but yet somehow manages to delude himself into thinking that his see-through feigned disguise as an authority on the matter isn't completely blown.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
If you scale such a tall person down to the size of smaller person with a more narrow bi-iliac breadth, they may be very similar.

A load of malarkey.

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
This is the case with Pygmies, too. If you scale the 'typical' Mbuti's body up to 1.70m, you'd probably probably see more affinity with Mediterranean populations than with many Sub-Saharan Africans in their trunk related measurements.

Is this a piece of the crack you smoke in your pipe?
Note that this filthy masquerading dog will either lie about this glaring phuckup, or act as if his vehement disagreement isn't indicative of his virtually non-existent understanding of physical anthropology.

Will be back later.

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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

^Indeed Lioness. Its self-evident that Pygmies aren't smaller scaled down versions of the tropically adapted Sub-Saharan Africans in their vicinity.

"scaled down versions", LOL. The stupidest things the mentally crippled say.

What's next? Perhaps "elongating" the "cold adapted" Europeans, like a rubber band. Perhaps that will tell us something about their "actual affinities" that the world didn't now about.

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Swenet
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You know, it may come as a surprise to you, being used to pathologically lying to everyone including yourself, but your opinion isn't worth a rat's ass in the real world, you know, where there is gravity, and other mechanic phenomena apply which are absent in ''Explorer's'' cuckoo dream world.

Talk is cheap, you filthy dog, disproving what I said is a whole 'nother matter, which you do not dare to burn your claws on (and you'll prove that with your next fluffy, low on substance post). That's exactly why the post above is full of unsubstantiated opinions, rather than sources that contradict what I've said. Troll!

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I'm noticing a pattern here. The more filthy dog explorer gets thrashed the sh!t out of him, the more his posts start to make less sense, ranging from non-reply rants to deliberate distortions, to pathological lies, with little to no relevant content in them. In short: everything BUT actual refutations of what I said. Not that it matters; the thrashings are there for everyone to see, whether the lying dog starts waving a white flag or whether the filthy dog acts as if his nose doesn't bleed. So yes, the below still stands, pending actual refutations, of course:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The "less linear" body of the pygmies does not absolve them from a tropical body plan, dummy.

Of course it does; in your sick interpretation of Holiday, re: ''Pygmies are outliers''. Lying troll.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Nothing mentioned about the Afalou being an outlier or otherwise, fuckheaded gorilla; just your fat-ass' habit of chasing after the imaginery.

Of course your lying ass didn't; that was my entire point. Your inherently immoral lying ass nature prevents you from applying the same ''outlier'' status to the Afalou, that you did not hesitate to apply to the more tropically adapted Nubian and Pygmy sample.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
one cannot admit to a concept that wasn't denied [i.e. trunk being different from limbs], but that confused you, numbnut.

Lying troll, you're not responding to the catastrophic predicament you're in; re: the inherent contradiction in your admission that trunk height may totally contradict limb proportions, which was bizarrely followed by what can only be described as bewildered emotion-based opposition to the idea that bodyplan may display the same pattern in relationship to limb proportions, as seen in the Nubian, Pygmy and Afalou.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Secondly, the body plan factors in limb proportions

Another blatant lie, that I exposed as such earlier.
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Analysis which must not be speaking merely to limb proportions or body plan respectively, as other cited reports indicate.

See this people? This is what a pathologically lying troll looks like. This fraud still has to audacity to claim that fig 5 in the opening posts doesn't depict the Afalou among cold adapted samples in bodyplan.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Europeans generally have lower limb ratios and/or limb/trunk ratios than either the Mesolithic Maghrebi or the UP Europeans.

Lying dog, neither of these evasive distractions prove what you initially claimed without a shred of evidence to back it up, re: '',it is both the Mesolithic Maghrebi and UP Europeans who would cluster with "Africans" before they did with Europeans in their average body plans''. Where is the evidence?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
In the post just above, it would appear this fact had not ever crossed your poor resolution radar.

Lying dog, what you wrote ''just above'' makes a worthless retarded claim pertaining to bodyplans, and doesn't even begin to address the inconvenient bummer that Ibero-Maurusian limb ratios would have been no different in the scenario that they came out of Eurasia, given the similar or even higher limb ratios in comparative Late Upper Palaeolithic Eurasian fossils.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
fuckhead, it is not a "proxy"; it is a determinant. Learn the difference.

Lying dog, it has already been brought to your attention that tropical ratios in the case of Mesolithic Europeans weren't even determinative for absolute limb length, let alone body shape. I'm highly appreciative of your very generous supply of evidence, to me and the forum, that you have no idea what the phuck you're talking about.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
it's working out just fine, given your post is just irrelevant shitheaded talk, which belies your charade of knowing what body linearity is.

This is just fake and empty accusing to make it seem like you have something to say. I was well aware enough of the definition to instantly call your invocation of ''linear in stature'' out for the crackpot mumbo jumbo that it is. Getting back on topic; specifically how does it work out for you that the Afalou are ''linear in stature'' (lol), when they cluster with ''less linear'' samples in fig 5?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
As for being "more tropically adapted than the Afalou sample", go ahead and tell away how that was specifically determined.

How about fig 5, posted in the opening post of this thread, troll. Is your senile dumbass asleep or something? SMH.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
not an iota about how body shape can be determined without consideration to limbs.

Aside from the fact that your rehashed lie that ''body shape cannot be determined without limb data'' is just another example in a long line of fabrications on your part (Bergman's rule can be established independently of Allen's rule), you're also pathetically deluding yourself into believing that your not so subtle switch from your initial ''limb proportion'' to ''limbs'' is going unnoticed. Bottom line, you were already schooled on the fact that Holiday's multi-variate analysis is not predicated on limb ratios. You ignored this part if my posts, yet still go on to perpetuate this fat ass lie, like the lying dog that you are.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
How does say, tropical limb proportions, not predict body plan. Have you come across "cold-adapted" body plans with tropical limb ratios or vice versa?

Dumbass troll, who has to be on crack to still not have realized by now that the Afalou sample is conforming to exactly what you're asking of me in fig 5 in the OP, have you ever bothered getting your neurone firing rate checked? You are slower than a sedated Sloth.

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
The so-called "attempt" cannot be deemed "failed", since it has neither been positively demonstrated that the San generally have a "tropical body plan"

Lying dumbass Sloth, I said that your attempt to use the said data as valid grounds to do what you did in that unfortunate moment of profound obtuseness, failed. Big difference. Other than that, how would fig 5 not qualify as a demonstration that the San have a tropically adapted bodyplan, troll?

quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are the only idiot on this planet who can mistake people schooling you on a simple excerpt for lying.

No more evasive distractions; explain RIGHT NOW what crack-induced figment led you to conclude ''outliers'' were spoken of in Holiday's distinction between ''linear'' and ''less linear''?
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Three more glaringly stupid claims led to the following investigations in your credibility, that you're running away from, ''Explorer''. You didn't think I wouldn't notice the fact that you chickened out of replying, did you?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I asked you a question, troll. No further stalling. What the hell is ''linear in stature''?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Now, to get back on topic, how is the description below fig 5 consistent with the idea that it's depicting population relationships in limb proportions?

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
I have already gone through Trenton's "Body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample", but subsequently lost the paper when my computer crashed earlier in the year.

Please inform us about this paper you're referring to. What are the full specifics of the paper? Publication date, journal, etc.


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Explorador
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Whenever you start recycling your old posts over and over, one knows that it's over for you, knucklehead. Only an idiot will wave a white flag over uninformed silly posts.

--------------------
The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat

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Swenet
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Explorer's inescapable phuckups that he went at pains to sweep under the rug, causing me to no longer reply to the pathologically lying troll's last post:

--That Holiday's multi-variate analysis is based on limb proportions rather than measurements
--That fig 5 somehow doesn't cluster the Afalou with cold adapted groups
--That the Ibero-Maurusian remains cluster with Africans, in the same way that Upper Palaeolithic Europeans do
--That it's a meaningful observation that the Ibero-Maurusian limb ratios are tropical, when most, if not all, Late Upper Palaeolithic Eurasian remains had tropical limb ratios
--That the description of fig 5 is consistent with his bewildered speculation that it may be based on limb data
--That the San population's mildly tropical limb proportions can be used to discredit fig 5
--That fig 5 is inconsistent with how Pygmies have clustered in the past in Holiday's work
--That ''less linear'' is tantamount to ''outlier''
--That there is such a thing as ''PCA that does cluster analysis''
--That Bantu speakers are homogeneous in their nasal breadth averages
--That there is such a thing is ''linear in stature''
--That stature adds to or has implications for the linearity of a population
--Lying pathologically about having lost access to a holiday paper which, most likely, was never even published
--That limb ratios predict bodyplan
--That bodyplan cannot be determined without limb proportions
--That Ohalo II is Natufian
--That mesocephaly precludes Ohalo II from clustering with the Ibero-Maurusian remains
--That Pygmies are simply scaled down versions of the other Africans populations in their vicinity
--The list goes on and on

^And this is just a list of where his dumbass was exposed spouting fabrications and not knowing what he was talking about; it doesn't even include his countless lies and distortions. The filthy lying ass dog is just a masquerading monkey who is even oblivious to the very basics of physical anthropology. ''PCA that does cluster analysis''--The Explorer.

 -

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Go ahead and say it: you stopped replying, because your ass is feeling the heat. Even your attempts at insulting are super-retarded. I cannot be a dog and a monkey at the same time. LOL

It's very sad that you have to cobble together either words that you've put into my mouth, so you can then knock them down, or dumb ideas which earned you scolding, and are hence, only good for reminding readers of how totally stupid you are. Cobble together another stupid list, and make my day.

--------------------
The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat

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Swenet
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Lying dog, as predicted, I still see no refutation of the fact that you phucked up when you fabricated the things I listed above:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Talk is cheap, you filthy dog, disproving what I said is a whole 'nother matter, which you do not dare to burn your claws on (and you'll prove that with your next fluffy, low on substance post).


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.

To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:

 -

This is for Nodnarb or Swenet, you may have read the article behind the paywall, I didn't

I'm wondering what period the Nubia sample is from. It is best not to guess.
I ask this because oddly Nubia is placed at the colder end of African positions, not close to Kerma.
Secondly the Norse and Germans are at the warmer end of Europeans, that seems odd also. Although Southern Europeans are not accounted for they place the French at a lower index position.
I'm wondering if any more detail on the sampling is in the article

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Swenet
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Said it several times. It's early Medieval in date. It's likely the same or a biologically closely related skeletal sample as the Christian Nubian sample used in Hanihara et al 2003, that, at times, clustered (non-metrically speaking) outside of the "North African" subcluster (comprising of Naqada, Giza and Kerma) and with Europeans.

Holiday doesn't identify this sample in his later papers, at least not the ones I have. When he speaks on the provenance of this Nubian sample and his other oft-used samples, he simply refers his readers back to his dissertation, which isn't readily available. So this is all that we know about it for now.

We also have Christian era aDNA to help put these results in a better context:

quote:
In dedicated aDNA facilities at University College Dublin, we successfully sequenced several specimens from Kulubnarti, Sudanese Nubia dated to the Early Christian era (500-1400 AD).
[...]
Quality control analysis indicated authenticity of the DNA and principle component analysis based on single nucleotide polymorphisms placed the individual around Middle Eastern and Central/South Asian clusters.

Source:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/275031861_No_longer_the_1_Optimizing_ancient_DNA_yield_from_Saharan_African_samples

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm wondering if any more detail on the sampling is in the article

 -
From Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)

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the lioness,
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^thanks, much
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quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

Obviously this statement applies to modern North Africans not the Afalou, 12,000 years ago who appear on Figure 5.
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Djehuti
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^ And are you saying that Holliday's Afalou sample represents all Oranians/Iberomarusians the same way his El Wad Natufian sample represents all Natufians??

You realize that crania from the Afalou bou Rummel site differ from the Mechta el Arbi in that the former have crania that are brachycephalic and orthognathous as well as cold adapted limb proportions. The same can be said of El Wad Natufians.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ And are you saying that Holliday's Afalou sample represents all Oranians/Iberomarusians the same way his El Wad Natufian sample represents all Natufians??


yes, it's a limb ratios study, Mechta-Afalou is a cold adapted robustly proportioned population as were the Taforalt Hg H carriers, more so than modern Europeans, clustering withartic peoples, clearly a refugia popualtion

Capsians that followed them were more gracile. I have since read the entire article

Modern Europeans and Natufuians, have limb ratios intermediate between Afalou/Inuit and Africans

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:
As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits.
--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

Obviously this statement applies to modern North Africans not the Afalou, 12,000 years ago who appear on Figure 5.
How long does it take for a tibiae to adapt fully to its region?


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ And are you saying that Holliday's Afalou sample represents all Oranians/Iberomarusians the same way his El Wad Natufian sample represents all Natufians??


yes, it's a limb ratios study, Mechta-Afalou is a cold adapted robustly proportioned population as were the Taforalt Hg H carriers, more so than modern Europeans, clustering withartic peoples, clearly a refugia popualtion

Capsians that followed them were more gracile. I have since read the entire article

Modern Europeans and Natufuians, have limb ratios intermediate between Afalou/Inuit and Africans


Libya and the Maghreb:


If the archaeology of the Sahara’s southern margins remains relatively poorly understood, the Maghreb has long been the focus of sustained activity focused on the Pleistocene/Holocene transition (Lubell 2000, 2005). Here and at Haua Fteah in northeastern Libya, the Iberomaurusian industry introduced in Chapter 7 continued to be made into the terminal Pleistocene (McBurney 1967; Close and Wendorf 1990). Several unusual features are of interest, including evidence, rare at this time depth, for sculpture. This takes the form of anthropomorphic and zoomorphic ceramic figurines from Afalou, Algeria, baked from locally available clay to temperatures of 500◦–800◦C (Hachi 1996, Hachi et al. 2002). Dating 15–11 kya, they are complemented by an earlier fragmentary figurine from the nearby site of Tamar Hat (Saxon 1976). Distinctive, too, are the many burials known from these later Iberomaurusian contexts, including apparent cemeteries at Afalou (Hachi 1996) and Taforalt, Morocco (almost 200 individuals; Ferembach et al. 1962). Analysis of these remains (see inset) raises issues of territoriality, limited mobility, and group identity that economic data are still too few to explore further.

Knowing that people hunted Barbary sheep and other large mammals and that they collected molluscs, both terrestrial and marine, is very different from being able to develop this checklist of ingredients into a meaningful set of recipes or menus that could illuminate the details of Iberomaurusian subsistence-settlement strategies.


WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:


The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).

--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ And are you saying that Holliday's Afalou sample represents all Oranians/Iberomarusians the same way his El Wad Natufian sample represents all Natufians??

You realize that crania from the Afalou bou Rummel site differ from the Mechta el Arbi in that the former have crania that are brachycephalic and orthognathous as well as cold adapted limb proportions. The same can be said of El Wad Natufians.

About the same quote, in its entirety, plus the El Wad Natufians.

 -




quote:

Three Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-19, 117-22 and 117-39) fall below the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, but all the Jebel Sahaba sample fall above the recent North African OLS line.

Note that the Afalou specimens (the grey circles) all fall below the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, with one individual (no. 28) falling below the recent European regression line and directly on the circumpolar line. Ain Dokhara 1 (the black circle), an early Holocene, Capsian-associated skeleton from Algeria (Balout 1955b), falls just above the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line. All five of the Natufian individuals from El Wad, Israel (the open squares), fall below the recent North African OLS line, and three of the five fall below the recent European regression line.

A similar, if less marked, clinal pattern is evident in the scatter plot of tibial length on femoral head size (Figure 2). Once again, the recent humans show a clinal pattern, with sub-Saharan Africans on average having the longest tibiae and circumpolar individuals possessing the shortest. As with the previous analysis, the North Africans are intermediate between the sub- Saharan Africans and the Europeans, whereas the Europeans tend toward longer tibiae than the Inuits. As a group, the Jebel Sahaba sample (the stars) tend to have longer tibiae for any given femoral head size than do the other fossil groups. Four of the eight Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-1, 117-6, 117-10 and 117-26) fall above the recent sub-Saharan African OLS line, with a fifth individual (117-19) falling directly on it. Three Jebel Sahaba individuals (117-18, 117-28 and 117-39) fall below the sub-Saharan OLS line. Of these, 117-28 lies above the recent North African OLS line, 117-39 falls directly on it and 117-18 falls just below it. In contrast, none of the Afalou skeletons (the grey circles) falls above the sub-Saharan African line; rather, they tend to cluster about the North African and European lines. Afalou 28 actually falls below the recent circumpolar human regression line for the tibial length: femoral head size relationship. Ain Dokhara 1 (the black circle) falls just above the North African and just below the sub-Saharan African OLS lines.

The El Wad Natufians (the open squares) all cluster
on or below the European regression line. Multivariate analyses begin with PCA based on the variance–covariance matrix (VCM) of a data set that includes the natural logarithms of all the measurements listed in the Materials and methods: femoral head A-P diameter and femoral, humeral, tibial and radial lengths (and shape variables were calculated from these mea- surements as described in the Materials and methods). The reduction in total variance (i.e. the sum of all ei- genvalues) from the VCM of the log-transformed mea- surements to that of the log shape measurements indicate that ~18.5% of the total variance is attribut- able to shape. The results of the PCA of the log shape variables are presented in Table 4. Combined, the first and second principal components account for 84.9% of the total shape variance. The first principal component accounts for 72.3% of the variance and primarily con- trasts femoral head size with tibial and radial length. The second principal component accounts for 12.6% of the variance and contrasts radius length with femoral length. These differences are best seen visually in Figure 3, which is a plot of the PC scores for the indi- vidual fossil specimens and male and female means for the recent human samples. The scores along the first principal axis contrast those individuals and sample means on the left, who tend to have smaller femoral heads and longer radial and tibial lengths, with those individuals and sample means on the right, who tend to have larger femoral heads and shorter tibial and radial lengths. [b]This principal axis is best interpreted as a climatic adaptation gradient, with those individuals on the left evincing a heat-adapted postcranial morphology, whereas those on the right evince a more cold-adapted morphology. The second principal component does not distinguish the groups from each other. All of the Jebel Sahaba specimens lie at the heat-adapted end of the spectrum, and all but one individual 2
1
0
-1
JS 10
Africa
El Wad 10290
Europe
JS 19
JS 39
Circumpolar
Afalou 28
(117-26, who is perhaps ‘extreme’ in its heat adap- tation) fall within the scatter of recent African means. Although not shown on the plot, the re- cent North African sample falls almost completely within the right side of the recent sub-Saharan Af- rican scatter, with one Jebel Sahaba specimen (117-39) falling within the range of both the re- cent North and sub-Saharan African sample means, a second (117-19) falling just outside the range of the North African sample means (but also within the range of the sub-Saharan Africans), whereas a third individual (117-10) falls outside of the North African range and just within the sub-Saharan Afri- can range. The Ain Dokhara specimen also falls within the scatter of recent African means. In contrast, none of the Afalou specimens, nor of the El Wad Natufian specimens, falls within the African scatter, and all lie to- ward the more cold-adapted end of the scatter. As was the case with the bivariate analyses, among the prehis- toric skeletons, Afalou 28 looks the most extreme in its cold-adapted morphology, and note that this specimen was recovered some 2 m below the other human remains at the site (see succeeding discussions)...

 -

--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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PS, ^

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ And are you saying that Holliday's Afalou sample represents all Oranians/Iberomarusians the same way his El Wad Natufian sample represents all Natufians??

You realize that crania from the Afalou bou Rummel site differ from the Mechta el Arbi in that the former have crania that are brachycephalic and orthognathous as well as cold adapted limb proportions. The same can be said of El Wad Natufians.

quote:
African groups tend to cluster together on the right side of the plot, whereas recent Europeans and circumpolar groups tend to cluster together on the left. Note that the Jebel Sahaba sample shares extremely close phenetic affinity with the recent West Africans, then is connected by two relatively short branches to the Sudanese from the site of Kerma and the East Africans, respectively. The Sudanese are then connected via one medium-length branch to the Egyptians and by a much longer branch to San. The Egyptians are connected via a short branch to recent African-Americans, who are then connected by one short branch to the recent Nubians and a second, much longer, branch to the African ‘Pygmies’. The Pygmies themselves are connected via a short branch to the single Ain Dokhara individual. Among the higher latitude groups, the Germans are tied to the exclusively African cluster described earlier via a medium-length branch to the Nubian sample. Finally, the remainder of the European and circumpolar groups cluster together on the left- hand side of the plot, with the Afalou skeletons and El Wad Natufians clustering among them.

The NJ tree based on the five postcranial shape variables is displayed in Figure 5. The tree has two major branches, one with recent Africans and the second a combined recent European/circumpolar branch. Among the African groups, the Christian-era Nubians are an outlier to the remainder of the African groups, followed by the Pygmies and the Ain Dokhara individual. On the NJ tree, the Jebel Sahaba sample shares close phenetic affinity with recent East Africans, followed by the West Africans and Sudanese. They then sequentially join the San, Egyptians and African-Americans. On the tree’s other major branch, that is, among the recent European/circumpolar groups, the Germans are the outgroup, followed by the Norse and then the El Wad Natufians. Interestingly, the three circumpolar samples cluster together (albeit on long branches), and the fossils from Afalou are an outgroup to these circumpolar people.

--T. W. HOLLIDAY

Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample: Limb Proportion Evidence

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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