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Clyde Winters
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The Tuareg and Berbers are not the same. The Tuareg are an ancient African population which mated with the Vandals to form the present Berber population.


http://books.google.com/books?id=dHnDH-m9UQYC&pg=PT21&dq=diop+berber+germanic+language


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Tuareg territory

This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) an important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.


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Clyde Winters
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Berber Languages
quote:




http://www.nvtc.gov/lotw/months/july/berber.html


Introduction

The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.

Consonants

Berber consonants include:

glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation;
implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward;
ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out;
geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts.
Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.

Grammar

Noun phrase

Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.

Verb phrase

Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.

Vocabulary

Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.

The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.

Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).


The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.


..  -


The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.

Berber is an Afro-Asiatic language. The Afro-Asiatic languages do not exit.


I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.

Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.

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You can also consult Note di geografia linguistica berbera more ,by Vermondo Brugnatelli :
http://unimib.academia.edu/VermondoBrugnatelli/Papers/1098593/Note_di_geografia_linguistica_berbera


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Obenga made it clear that AfroAsiatic does not exist and you can not reconstruct the Proto-language.

This is true. Ehret (1995) and Orel/Stolbova (1995) were attempts at comparing Proto-AfroAsiatic. The most interesting fact about these works is that they produced different results. If AfroAsiatic existed they should have arrived at similar results. The major failur of these works is that there is too much synononymy. For example, the Proto-AfroAsiatic synonym for bird has 52 synonyms this is far too many for a single term and illustrates how the researchers just correlated a number of languages to produce a proto-form.

This supports Obenga's view that you can not reconstruct Afro-Asiatic. It is assumed that if languages are related you should be able to reconstruct the proto-language of the language family.


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Clyde Winters
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This paper does not claim the Garamantes were linked to Berbers.

quote:


Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations.
Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.

Source


Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.


Abstract


"The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region."

But...

[QUOTE]


And ...


"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"


--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)


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They've always been an indigenous African population.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Tuareg and Berbers are not the same. The Tuareg are an ancient African population which mated with the Vandals to form the present Berber population.
 -





so would you say that when Diop says in the following paragraph from the book that the berber speaking Tuareg were white he was mistaken?

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Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origin of Civilization

Diop also says there are no berbers in Egypt.
Yet the Siwa are berbers and they live in Egypt

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Cheikh Anta Diop, African Origin of Civilization

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
 -

Tuareg territory

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

This map represents the Tuareg region. The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the East. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) an important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.



Clyde Morroco is West of the Fezzan

East of the Fezzan is more of Libya and Egypt


The Tuareg or another group in the region would be likely to have descended form the Garmante but you can't prove they are or are not.
The Garmante don't have to speak berber in order for modern day berber speaking Tuareg to have descended from them because people can change languages.
But very little is known about Garamonte language.
The Romans notcied their script to have some similarities to Phoenician

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde what about haplogroups M81 which are highest frequency in berbers
and U6 and/or M1 which are also high in many berbers?
Aren't there a lot of genetic studies that came after Diop passed?

Clyde and xyyman are at opposite extremes on this

I have made clear in all of my work that M1 spread across Africa before the
OoA exit 50kya. See:


Haplogroup L3 (M,N) probably spread across Africa before the Out of Africa event
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/367/1590/770/reply#royptb_el_319

and

.


The African Origin of mtDNA Haplogroup M1

Co-Author's: Clyde Winters
Corresponding Author: Clyde Winters

Key words: Haplogroup, Sangoan, clade, haplotype, mtDNA, subhaplogroup,

Vol. 2 , Issue: 6, 380-389

Abstract:

The aim of this study is to determine the geographical origin of haplogroup M1. Controversy surrounds the origin and expansion of the M1 haplogroup (hg). Some researchers believe that the M1 macrohaplogroup originated in Asia and represents a backflow to Africa, while other researchers believe hg M1 is of African origin. The analysis of M1 clades in Africa and Eurasia illustrate a high frequency for hg M1 in Sub Saharan Africa (SSA) instead of A sia and the Near East; and the distribution of haplogroups L3(M) and LOd across Sub Saharan Africa dating back to the Sangoan period make a 'back migration' of M1 to Africa highly unlikely.


http://www.maxwellsci.com/print/crjbs/v2-380-389.pdf

There are many M haplogroups found in Africa

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1. The most recent common ancestor (TMRC) of AMH carrying LOd according to Gonder et al. dates to 106kya. A haplotype of LOd is AF-24, delineated by DdeI site 10394 and AluI site of np 10397. Haplogroup L3 (M,N) is characterized by the DdeI site np 10394 and AluI 10397. Chen et al. maintain that Haplotype AF-24 (DQ112852) is at the base of the M Haplogroup [4].
The only African mtDNA that has both of these sites is the Senegalese AF-24 associated with Haplogroup L3 [Chen]. The presence of AF-24 among the Senegalese, given the antiquity of this haplotype in relation to LOd, suggests an early expansion of L3 (M,N) from East Africa to West Africa before the OoA event suggested by Oppenheimer.

Gonder et al. has dated L3 to 100kya [5]. Oppenheimer [1] and Behar et al [3] on the other hand have postulated an estimated time for TMRCA of L3 to around 70kya. The presence of L3 (M,N) in West Africa and haplotype AF- 24 suggest an ancient demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) to West Africa prior to 70kya, and support Soares et al.'s [2] and Gonder et al.'s [5] dating of L3 between 80-100kya.

Anatomically modern humans arrived in Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material was discovered near Cap Manuel [6], Gambia River in Senegal [8,9]; and Cap Vert [7]. The distribution of the Sangoan culture supports the demic diffusion of L3 (M,N) into West Africa over 100kya.

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Contemporary north africans are probably the children of the early africans who took haplogroup M to Northwest Africa (NWA).

Rosa et al claims an autochthonous origin for haplogroup U6 in NWA given the diversity of U6 clades in NWA around 38kya. Using this criterion, the diversity of U5 clades in SSWA and the phylogeography of U5 in this region, support an in situ origin for the U5 clade in the same region as haplogroup U6.

In summary, the genetic data from contemporary European populations fails to support a migration of populations carrying haplogroup U5 into Europe via the Levant. The low frequency of U5 in Europe, except among the Saami, probably indicates a single episode of ancient gene flow from NWA and SSWA into Iberia 9kya. The present phylogeograpical distribution of the U5 cline reflects demographic porcesses involving population replacement, drift and a history of genetic bottlenecks resulting from demic diffussion of neolithic populations from the Levant and Central Asia into Europe.

The temporal and spatial distribution of U5 and U6 clades outside Europe, point to a NWA and SSWA origin for these lineages. The high frequency of U5 in NWA and SSWA suggest the spread of the U5 cline into Iberia across the Straits of Gibraltar 7kya.


;

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the lioness,
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 -


^^^ Clyde look at all this M1 and U in berbers

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -


^^^ CLyde look at all this M1 and U in berbers

Most carriers of haplogroup M1 live in SubSaharan Africa--not North Africa


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Contemporary north african Berbers are probably the children of the early africans who took haplogroup M to Northwest Africa (NWA) that mated with the Vandals, and Peoples of the Sea.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Clyde Morroco is West of the Fezzan

East of the Fezzan is more of Libya and Egypt


The Tuareg or another group in the region would be likely to have descended form the Garmante but you can't prove they are or are not.
The Garmante don't have to speak berber in order for modern day berber speaking Tuareg to have descended from them because people can change languages.
But very little is known about Garamonte language.
The Romans notcied their script to have some similarities to Phoenician

You are correct Morocco is west of the Fezzan.

Little is known about the Garamante language but from the little we know about the Garamante language that was spoken in ancient Crete it is related to the Mande Family of languages,

The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.


The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.

Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.

The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.


Keftiu


The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes (T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99)), and Manding names.


Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.

On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:

Keftiu....... Manding

sh h.r........ Sye

Nsy ..........Nsye

'ksh .........Nkyi

Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)

'dm ..........Demba

Rs............. Rsa

This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.

In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.

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Clyde Winters
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This table just supports the view that the Berbers have mated with the ancient Africans who took L3(M,N) to Europe and North Africa (1-4). This genetic evidence does not prove that they were not of Germanic/Vandal origin.

The L haplogroups early spread to Iberia (2). The L3 (M,N) haplogroups were spread into Europe with the Cromagnon people who entered Europe across the Straits of Gibraltar (4).


References:

(1) A Sub-Saharan Origin for European Farmers http://olmec98.net/BlkFarmers.pdf

(2) There has been a Continous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africe for 30ky http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf

(3) First Europran Farmers were Sub-Saharan Africans http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1730/884.abstract/reply

(4) 2011.The Gibraltar Out of Africa Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans. WebmedCentral BIOLOGY. http://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/2311

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Imazighen are the people speaking Tamazight. That
is my definition. Before North Africans began to
speak Tamazight lects they were not "Berbers."

Sure, but the point I'm trying to make is that your and Nikita et al's reservation to the idea that Garamantes and modern Berber speakers derive the practice of trephenation from their Epi-Palaeolithic predecessors in that region hinges on the suspicion that Maghrebi Epi-Palaeolithic ancestry doesn't persist in modern Berber speakers. That idea is not founded on current understandings of what Berber speakers are.

.

I think many "Berbers," for the most part, descend
from pre-Berber Maurusians (who were relegated to
the littoral) and pre-Berber Gafsians (whose sites
were further inland). Nikita's trephination point is
it's practiced by Tubu today not by Kels. Tin Hanan
(whom Kel Ahaggar claim as "ancestress") her tomb
is Tubu architecture. Also those Kels in SW Fezzan's Ghat
moved there upon Qadhafi's invitation in the 1970's, iirc.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Kind of similar to how Palestinians think of themselves as Arabs and don't seem to have recollections of being inhabitants of events related to the Israelite state, even though their pre-medieval ancestors likely would have self identified as biologically Jewish or something akin to it.

There are some Palestinians who claim Pelishti
ancestry which would make them Aegean settlers
and so still not supporting claims of being the
original land holders.

Arab Palestinians are just that, "Arab." It is
documented that various non-local origin "Arabs"
settled there throughout time since the Muslim
hegemony.

Yes, some non-Jewish settler Palestinians descend
from the old Judaean citizenry not all of whom were
descended from the 12 Tribes of Israel or the Gerim
who nationalized by adopting the state "religion."

I guess if any ethny can claim the land because of
long term inhabitation it'd be the Beduine and those
"Mizrahhi Jews" who never left the locality and are
documented in at least Jerusalem from Roman times
up until the secular Zionists established the state of
Israel.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I don't see Teda entering Fezzan any later than
the Kels.
I guess that map is as good as any.
Does it jibe with other similar maps? There's
some Xian missionary group very concerned with
African ethnic groups. Maybe I'm simple to do
it but I value their ethnic maps because the
time they put in the field and the stakes they
place in what they do.

I guess that goes back to what I said earlier, re: what one considers Tuareg to be. Are they predominantly a continuation of their >10ky old mtDNA H1, M1 and V ancestors or of their ~5kya E-M81 ancestors? If one goes with the former scenario, as I'm inclined to for obvious reasons, then they hands down pre-date Tebu in the wider area.

Who are the Libyan Bedouins you're referring to? Isn't ''Bedouin'' a lifestyle related term, which may be applied to segments of all Libyan ethnic groups, rather than an ethnic term, or is it different in Libya?

.

Seriously, the Tuareg are the Tuareg -- properly
Kel Tamasheq -- they do not consider themselves
Berber. They have always identified as iMazighen
as many nationalist North Africans now do. But
again, iMazighen technically are only the upper
echelon of the Kels though the term is applied
to all classes combined as one people (kel).

Quite plainly there were no Kels before ~1700 years
ago. They are of multiple ancestries which for Fezzani
"Tuaregs" includes L0a1 L1b1 L2a (L2a1 L2a1a) L2b
L3e (L3e1* L3e2 L3e2b L3e3 L3f) L3w and M1 not just
biasedly preferred Eurasian markers (due to a priori
assumptions that only those of Eurasian mtDNA's can
be the real true North Africans).

Anyway without presenting any archaeology or culture
evidence Tubu cannot be ruled out as not being in
the central Sahara at Fezzan/Acacus/Hoggar just as
early as any Eurasians. The rock art shows multi
ethnicity and "Tuareg" folk ancestress Tin Hinan's
tomb is Tubu.


Yes Bedouin is properly a lifestyle, that of tent
dwellers. Thing is bedwin everywhere tend to marry
inside, the exception being slave "marriage" and
illicit affairs with male slaves. Beduin consider
themselves separate from other ethnies no matter
what country. This doesn't mean beduin from different
countries are related to each other.

Libya is pretty complex ethnicitywise. There are
the indigenees and the conquerers and their mixtures
as well as nearby immigrant groups. But before Europe
carved out the nation state of Libya just who was Libyan?

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[QB]  -


This table just supports the view that the Berbers have mated with the ancient Africans who took L3(M,N) to Europe and North Africa (1-4). This genetic evidence does not prove that they were not of Germanic/Vandal origin.


yes some haplgoups could correspond to anceint Germanic input.
However the number 80,000 supposedly the number of germanics mentioned in one historical source Vandals etc. who entered the region cannot be varified

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I think many "Berbers," for the most part, descend
from pre-Berber Maurusians (who were relegated to
the littoral) and pre-Berber Gafsians (whose sites
were further inland). Nikita's trephination point is
it's practiced by Tubu today not by Kels. Tin Hanan
(whom Kel Ahaggar claim as "ancestress") her tomb
is Tubu architecture. Also those Kels in SW Fezzan's Ghat
moved there upon Qadhafi's invitation in the 1970's, iirc. [/QB]

Nikita says that its ''most likely'' that modern Berbers and the Garamantes population attained the practice from the Nile Valley, likely because of what I said earlier; the tendency to see discontinuity between Epi-Palaeolithic Maghrebi populations and modern Berber populations. Can you specify what you mean with ''Tubu architecture'' and the significance of Tuareg in the Ghat region?

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
There are some Palestinians who claim Pelishti
ancestry which would make them Aegean settlers
and so still not supporting claims of being the
original land holders.[/QB]

They do? Didn't know that. From what I know from past inquiries into Palestinian and Jewish genetics, they're genetically mostly indistinguishable. This is no surprise. Almost all origin legends, especially told by non-peninsular ''Arab'' populations, that aren't in line with them primarily originating in their current location, are usually made up or only applicable to a minuscule minority.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Quite plainly there were no Kels before ~1700 years
ago. They are of multiple ancestries which for Fezzani
"Tuaregs" includes L0a1 L1b1 L2a (L2a1 L2a1a) L2b
L3e (L3e1* L3e2 L3e2b L3e3 L3f) L3w and M1 not just
biasedly preferred Eurasian markers (due to a priori
assumptions that only those of Eurasian mtDNA's can
be the real true North Africans).

Contrary to the M1, H1 and V lineages I've mentioned, the L mtDNAs you're listing haven't been properly sorted into recent (slave trade) heritage and ancient heritage. Additionally, in Fezzan Tuaregs they're the minority. Also, many L lineages are not recurrent in various Tuareg samples. One would expect the recurrent lineages in North, South, West and East Tuaregs to be representative of Tuareg specific heritage. H1, M1 and V clearly fit this picture, so how would my preference for using them for this purpose qualify as a priori and biased?

Can you address the specific point of Iberian H1 and V showing TMRCA and frequency + diversity epicentre relationships with known Capsians site distribution, and the implication that arises out of this, namely, that this aspect of the Fezzan Tuareg maternal genepool has been traversing the Southern Tunisian and adjacent Fezzan region for 10ky? Are these important lineages in the Tebu population? Is there available genetic data for the Tebu? I'm trying to remain open but I already know that the Tebu don't fit the physical descriptions of Garamantes, nor does their Nilo-Saharan/Chadian genetic substratum, as postulated from their language and closest relatives, provide much support for a pre-Neolithic entry into the region.

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Tukuler
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My next few posts are all on the fly. Sorry
but my time is fleeting and I haven't digested
what I'm replying to -- will do so in full eventually.


=====================


Why must all L lineages automatically be from
slaves but Eurasian ones never from slaves?
Some of the listed L is older than H1 and V.
How do you know all central Saharan H1 an V
is from Holocene Iberian mommies and none of
it from Islamic era slaves? How do you know
none of the central Saharan L is from Holocene
East Africans?

I don't know for a surety one way or the other
but I take in all accounts without a priori bias
favoring either. They are all possibilities and
I don't see one more probable than another.

Bottomline Fezzani Kels mtDNA is 2/3rds Eurasian
and 1/3rd African with some of the L much older
than H1 and V. Some of the L even coalesces to
the start of the Garamante kingdom.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
the Robert Graves quote

 -

Look! If you're going to keep plagiarizing me get it right

================


THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH

At the beginning of all things Mother Earth emerged from Chaos
and bore her son Uranus as she slept.
. . .

b. Her first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed
giants Briareus, Gyges, and Cottus.
. . .

c. The Libyans, however, claim that Garamas was born before the
Hundred-handed Ones and that, when he rose from the plain, he
offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.


. . . .


1. This patriarchal myth of Uranus gained official acceptance
under the Olympian religious system.
...
Briareus ('strong') was also called Aegaeon, and his people may
therefore be the Libyo-Thracians, whose Goat-goddess Aegis gave
her name to the Aegean Sea.

Cottus was the eponymous ancestor of the Cottians who worshipped
the orgiastic Cotytto, and spread her worship from Thrace through
out North-western Europe. These tribes are described as 'hundred
handed', perhaps because their priestesses were organized in
colleges of fifty, like the Danaids and Nereids; ...
. . .


. . . .


3. Garamas is the eponymous ancestor of the Libyan Garamantians
who occupied the Oasis of Djado, south of the Fezzan, and were
conquered by the Roman general Balbus in 19 B.C. They are said
to have been of Cushite-Berber stock, and in the second century
A.D. were subdued by the matrilineal Lemta Berbers. Later they
fused with the Negro aboriginals on the south bank of the Upper
Niger, and adopted their language.

They survive today in a single village under the name of Koromantse.
Garamante is derived from the words gara man te meaning 'Gara state
people'.

Gara seems to be the goddess Ker, or Q're, or Car, who gave her
name to the Carians, amog other people, and was associated with
apiculture. Esculent acorns, a stape food of the ancient world
before the introduction of [grains], grew in Libya; and the
Garamantian settlement of Ammon was joined with the Northern
Greek settlement of Dodona in a religious league which, according
to Sir Flinders Petrie, may have originated as early as the third
millenium B.C.

Both places had an ancient oak-oracle. Herodotus describes
the Garamantians as a peaceable but very powerful people,
who cultivate the date-palm, grow [grain], and herd cattle.



Robert Graves

The Greek Myths

New York: George Braziller, Inc., 1959 (edition)
vol. 1 pp. 31-33


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/116/forgotten-garamante-kingdom?page=4#ixzz2YPUO4n1T

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

The Tuareg and Berbers are not the same. The Tuareg are an ancient African population which mated with the Vandals to form the present Berber population.

'Berber' is a linguisto-cultural group encompassing many different ethnicities. The Tuareg or Tamashek is just ONE of those ethnicities! Also the Tuareg have nothing to do with the Vandals.

Here is a map with list of the major Berber groups.

 -

"Saharan Berbers" is a collective label the authors of the map use for the various groups living in the desert mostly in oases areas from the Siwa of western Egypt to the Shila of southeast Morocco, although the Tamashek (Tuareg) themselves are Saharan Berbers who are the largest and most expansive.

quote:
 -
Tuareg territory

 -
Vandal territory

Pray tell what one has to do with the other? Especially when their territories are separated by hundreds of miles of desert.

By the way, here is a good webpage that gives some basic info and background on the Tuareg: http://shelf3d.com/i/Tuareg%20people

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Tukuler
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One reason I don't refute his more obvious errors
is his writing is dogmatic ideaology repeated
from earlier works without revision or update.

I already explained the Tehenu Temehu difference
yet he just posts the same old conflation of the
two without examining the evidence I gave.

I could post my analyses of the term Garamante for
the membership but it's only one part of refuting
some of the points in his long post.

Being its his thread I let it slide whereas if
another poster broached the thread I might go
more into some of the finer points on Garamantes
"Berbers" etc.

I am however enjoying the exchange with Swenet and
since it started here I won't resort to a new thread
to continue our discussion/debate.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Even though this thread was created by Clyde, I see no point in arguing with the thread author as he is beyond reason.


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^ Yes, my previous post above is not any attempt at 'refute' (why refute something so obviously wrong?) but rather just ridicule. You are right that all Clyde does is repeat the same nonsense over and over again as it is nothing more than his own personal dogma. I am very much interested in what info you have on the Garamantes.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
the Robert Graves quote

 -

Look! If you're going to keep plagiarizing me get it right

================


THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH

At the beginning of all things Mother Earth emerged from Chaos
and bore her son Uranus as she slept.
. . .

b. Her first children of semi-human form were the hundred-handed
giants Briareus, Gyges, and Cottus.
. . .

c. The Libyans, however, claim that Garamas was born before the
Hundred-handed Ones and that, when he rose from the plain, he
offered Mother Earth a sacrifice of the sweet acorn.


. . . .


1. This patriarchal myth of Uranus gained official acceptance
under the Olympian religious system.
...
Briareus ('strong') was also called Aegaeon, and his people may
therefore be the Libyo-Thracians, whose Goat-goddess Aegis gave
her name to the Aegean Sea.

Cottus was the eponymous ancestor of the Cottians who worshipped
the orgiastic Cotytto, and spread her worship from Thrace through
out North-western Europe. These tribes are described as 'hundred
handed', perhaps because their priestesses were organized in
colleges of fifty, like the Danaids and Nereids; ...
. . .


. . . .


3. Garamas is the eponymous ancestor of the Libyan Garamantians
who occupied the Oasis of Djado, south of the Fezzan, and were
conquered by the Roman general Balbus in 19 B.C. They are said
to have been of Cushite-Berber stock, and in the second century
A.D. were subdued by the matrilineal Lemta Berbers. Later they
fused with the Negro aboriginals on the south bank of the Upper
Niger, and adopted their language.

They survive today in a single village under the name of Koromantse.
Garamante is derived from the words gara man te meaning 'Gara state
people'.

Gara seems to be the goddess Ker, or Q're, or Car, who gave her
name to the Carians, amog other people, and was associated with
apiculture. Esculent acorns, a stape food of the ancient world
before the introduction of [grains], grew in Libya; and the
Garamantian settlement of Ammon was joined with the Northern
Greek settlement of Dodona in a religious league which, according
to Sir Flinders Petrie, may have originated as early as the third
millenium B.C.

Both places had an ancient oak-oracle. Herodotus describes
the Garamantians as a peaceable but very powerful people,
who cultivate the date-palm, grow [grain], and herd cattle.



Robert Graves

The Greek Myths

New York: George Braziller, Inc., 1959 (edition)
vol. 1 pp. 31-33


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/116/forgotten-garamante-kingdom?page=4#ixzz2YPUO4n1T

I'm confused. Graves seems to identify the Garama with a goddess in Anatolia and Greece. How true is this, or is Graves merely making wild speculations on etymology or rather typology of the word? Also, you say the Hekatonchieres (hundred-handers) are connected with Libyo-Thracians. So this means both Libyans and Thracians? How so, and what is the connection between these two people?? By the way, I thought the Greek legend was that the Aegean Sea was named after the Mycenaean king Aegeus (father of Theseus) though the Anatolian version is that it was named after one of the founding Amazon Queens Aegea, (daughter of Helios the sun and Perse the Oceanid; sister of Kirke, Pasiphae, Aeëtes, Persus, and Aloeus;).
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 -
 -

why did Diop say this?

Does Diop mention the Siwa in any of his writings? So far I have found no mention

Either he was avoiding any mention of the Siwa or considering the Siwa not to be berber

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Djehuti
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^ Forget the Siwa! There are plenty of Berber groups that are predominantly black, or at least have blacks common among them including the Tuareg of the Sahara! This is why I too was surprised about what Diop wrote when I first read his Origins book. Then again, Diop has also wrote other things that are known to be erroneous such as black Africans colonizing Southwest Asia from Sumer and Elam all the way to India. He even stated that the "Mongoloid" race is the product of admixture between "Caucasoids" and "Negroids" [sic]!! That said, Diop may have been a brilliant scholar in many ways, but he was obviously far from perfect!

It's a shame some folks today refuse to accept this and idolize Diop to the point of dogma where they refuse any facts or reality. Case in point Clyde. [Embarrassed]

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Clyde Winters
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Diop was not wrong about the African/Kushite settlement and founding of civilization from Mesopotamia to Iran and India. Diop was a student of W.E.B. DuBois who he greatly admired.

LOL. Afro-American scholars have recognized the Kushite settlement of West and South Asia for over 200 years. This is nothing new.

It is sad that most of the participants here know nothing about the history Afro-American scholarship relating to Ancient History.


Only a Euronut would deny the role of Kushites in founding civilization in Sumer and Elam.

 -


Knowledge is cumulative. In other words we build new knowledge on the research of the giants in our field. From your lack of knowledge about DuBois' it is clear you have no recognition of the fact that what you guys are writing about has already been discussed formerly, and your job should be confirming or disconfirming what these giants wrote.

I teach educational philosophy on occasion. In this class I just don't talk about contemporary educators I also talk about the Greek philosophers.

I have posted the following previously. I hope you will read it this time and begin to recognize that what Mike, Marc and I write about is part of a 200 year tradition of Afro-American scholarship. Learn to respect your own scholars. Don't let white supremacy continue to blind you to the truths of history.

Afrocentrism, is a mature social science that was founded by Afro-Americans almost 200 years ago.

These men and women provided scholarship based on contemporary archaeological and historical research the African/Black origination of civilization throughout the world. These Afro-American scholars, mostly trained at Harvard University (one of the few Universities that admitted Blacks in the 19th Century) provide the scientific basis the global role played by African people in civilizing the world.

Afrocentrism and the africalogical study of ancient Black civilizations was began by Afro-Americans.

 -

Edward Blyden

The foundation of any mature science is its articulation in an authoritive text (Kuhn, 1996, 136). The africalogical textbooks published by Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) provided the vocabulary themes for further afrocentric social science research.

The pedagogy for ancient africalogical research was well established by the end of the 19th century by African American researchers well versed in the classical languages and knowledge of Greek and Latin. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) in the Freedom Journal, were the first African Americans to discuss and explain the "Ancient Model" of history.

 -

These afrocentric social scientists used the classics to prove that the Blacks founded civilization in Egypt, Ethiopia, Babylon and Ninevah. Cornish and Russwurm (1827) made it clear that archaeological research supported the classical, or "Ancient Model" of history.


Edward Blyden (1869) also used classical sources to discuss the ancient history of African people. ][bIn his work he not only discussed the evidence for Blacks in West Asia and Egypt, he also discussed the role of Blacks in ancient America (Blyden, 1869, 78).][/b

By 1883, africalogical researchers began to publish book on African American history. G.W. Williams (1883) wrote the first textbook on African American history. In the History of the Negro Race in America, Dr. Williams provided the schema for all future africalogical history text.

 -

Dr. Williams (1883) confirmed the classical traditions for Blacks founding civilization in both Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia) and West Asia.
In addition, to confirming the "Ancient Model" of history, Dr. Williams (1883) also mentioned the presence of Blacks in Indo-China and the Malay Peninsula. Dr. Williams was trained at Howard.

 -

A decade later R.L. Perry (1893) also presented evidence to confirm the classical traditions of Blacks founding Egypt, Greece and the Mesopotamian civilization. He also provided empirical evidence for the role of Blacks in Phoenicia, thus increasing the scope of the ASAH paradigms.

 -

Pauline E. Hopkins (1905) added further articulation of the ASAH paradigms of the application of these paradigms in understanding the role of Blacks in West Asia and Africa.
Hopkins (1905) provided further confirmation of the role of Blacks in Southeast Asia, and expanded the scope of africalogical research to China (1905).

This review of the 19th century africalogical social scientific research indicate confirmation of the "Ancient Model" for the early history of Blacks. We also see a movement away from self-published africalogical research, and publication of research, and the publication of research articles on afrocentric themes, to the publication of textbooks.

It was in these books that the paradigms associated with the "Ancient Model" and ASAH were confirmed, and given reliability by empirical research. It was these texts which provided the pedagogic vehicles for the perpetuation of the africalogical normal social science.

The afrocentric textbooks of Hopkins (1905), Perry (1893) and Williams (1883) proved the reliability and validity of the ASAH paradigms. The discussion in these text of contemporary scientific research findings proving the existence of ancient civilizations in Egypt, Nubia-Sudan (Kush), Mesopotamia, Palestine and North Africa lent congruency to the classical literature which pointed to the existence of these civilizations and these African origins ( i.e., the children of Ham= Khem =Kush?).

The authors of the africalogical textbooks reported the latest archaeological and anthropological findings. The archaeological findings reported in these textbooks added precision to their analysis of the classical and Old Testament literature. This along with the discovery of artifacts on the ancient sites depicting Black\African people proved that the classical and Old Testament literature, as opposed to the "Aryan Model", objectively identified the Black\African role in ancient history. And finally, these textbooks confirmed that any examination of references in the classical literature to Blacks in Egypt, Kush, Mesopotamia and Greece\Crete exhibited constancy to the evidence recovered from archaeological excavations in the Middle East and the Aegean. They in turn disconfirmed the "Aryan Model", which proved to be a falsification of the authentic history of Blacks in early times.

The creation of africalogical textbooks provided us with a number of facts revealing the nature of the afrocentric ancient history paradigms. They include a discussion of:

1) the artifacts depicting Blacks found at ancient sites

recovered through archaeological excavation;

2) the confirmation of the validity of the classical and Old

Testament references to Blacks as founders of civilization in Africa and Asia;

3) the presence of isolated pockets of Blacks existing outside Africa; and

4) that the contemporary Arab people in modern Egypt are not the descendants of the ancient Egyptians.


The early africalogical textbooks also outlined the africalogical themes research should endeavor to study. A result, of the data collected by the africalogical ancient history research pioneers led to the development of three facts by the end of the 19th century, which needed to be solved by the afrocentric paradigms:

(1) What is the exact relationship of ancient Egypt, to Blacks in other parts of Africa;

(2) How and when did Blacks settle America, Asia and Europe;

(3) What are the contributions of the Blacks to the rise, and cultural expression ancient Black\African civilizations;

(4) Did Africans settle parts of America in ancient times.

As you can see the structure of Afrocentrism were made long before Boas and the beginning of the 20th Century.In fact , I would not be surprised if Boas learned what he talked about from the early Afrocentric researchers discussed in this post.

As you can see Afro-Americans have be writing about the Global history of ancient Black civilizations for almost 200 years. It was Afro-Americans who first mentioned the African civilizations of West Africa and the Black roots of Egypt. These Afro-Americans made Africa a historical part of the world.

Afro-American scholars not only highlighted African history they also discussed the African/Black civilizations developed by African people outside Africa over a hundred years before Bernal and Boas.

Your history of what you call "negrocentric" or Black Studies is all wrong. It was DuBois who founded Black/Negro Studies, especially Afro-American studies given his work on the slave trade and sociological and historical studies of Afro-Americans. He mentions in the World and Africa about the Jews and other Europeans who were attempting to take over the field.
 -
Hansberry
There is no one who can deny the fact that Leo Hansberry founded African studies in the U.S., not the Jews.Hansberry was a professor at Howard University.

Moreover, Bernal did not initiate any second wave of "negro/Blackcentric" study for ancient Egyptian civilization. Credit for this social science push is none other than Chiek Diop, who makes it clear that he was influenced by DuBois.

 -

DuBois


These scholars recognized that the people of ancient Greece, Southeast Asia and Indo-China were African people. When giants in study of Afrocentrism discussed Blacks in Asia they were talking about people of African descent. So when you claim that these civilizations should be outside the study area of Afrocentric scholars you don't know what you're talking about.

These researchers used anthropological, archaeological historical and linguistic evidence to support their conclusions. It is only natural that these well founded hypotheses developed by these scholars can be supported by population genetics.


My papers have been published in peer reviewed journals for over 20 years, because they are a continuation and confirmation of the research of Afro-American researchers and Diop.


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_______.(1982b). "Zeus, Ethiopien Minos Tamoul", Carbet Revue

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Parker,G.W. (1917) . "The African Origin of Grecian Civilization

".Journal of Negro History, 2(3):334-344.

___________. (1981). The Children of the Sun. Baltimore,Md.:

Black Classic Press.

Perry, R.L. (1893). The Cushite. Brooklyn: The Literary Union.

Rawlinson, George. (1928).The History of Herodutus. New York

: Tudor.

Schomburg, A.A. (March, 1925).The Negro digs up his past.

Survey Graphic, 670-672.

Schomburg, A.A. (1979). Racial integrity. Baltimore, M.D.:

Black Classic Press.

Thompson, Jr. A.A. (1975). Pre-Columbian [African] presence

in the Western Hemisphere,Negro History Bulletin, 38 (7), 452-456.

Williams, G.W. (1869). History of the Negro Race in America. New York: G.P. Putnam.

Wimby, D. (1980). The Greco-Roman Tradition concerning Ethiopia and Egypt, black books bulletin, 7(1), 14-19, 25.

Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mande scripts on ancient American writing systems", Bulletin l'de IFAN, T39, serie B, no. 2 (1977), pp.941-967.

Winters, C.A. (1979). Manding Scripts in the New World", Journal of African Civilizations, l(1), 80-97.

Winters,C.A. (December 1981/ January 1982). Mexico's Black Heritage. The Black Collegian, 76-84.

Winters, C.A. (1983a). "The Ancient Manding Script". In Blacks

in Science:Ancient and Modern. (ed.) by Ivan van Sertima, (New Brunswick: Transaction Books) pp.208-215.

__________. (1983b). "Les Fondateurs de la Grece venaient d'Afrique en passant par la Crete". Afrique Histoire (Dakar), no.8:13-18.

_________. (1983c) "Famous Black Greeks Important in the development of Greek Culture". Return to the Source,2(1):8.

________.(1983d). "Blacks in Ancient China, Part 1, The Founders

of Xia and Shang", Journal of Black Studies 1 (2), 8-13.

________. (1984a). "Blacks in Europe before the Europeans".

Return to the Source, 3(1):26-33.

Winters, C.A. (1984b). Blacks in Ancient America, Colorlines, 3(2), 27-28.

Winters, C.A. (1984c). Africans found first American Civilization , African Monitor, l , pp.16-18.

_________.(1985a). "The Indus Valley Writing and related

Scripts of the 3rd Millennium BC". India Past and

Present, 2(1):13-19.

__________. (1985b). "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians,

Manding and Sumerians". Tamil Civilization,3(1):1-9.

__________. (1985c). "The Far Eastern Origin of the Tamils",

Journal of Tamil Studies , no.27, pp.65-92.

__________.(1986). The Migration Routes of the Proto-Mande.

The Mankind Quarterly,27 (1), 77-96.

_________.(1986b). Dravidian Settlements in Ancient Polynesia.

India Past and Present, 3 (2), 225-241.

__________. (1988). "Common African and Dravidian Place Name

Elements". South Asian Anthropologist, 9(1):33-36.

__________. (1989a). "Tamil, Sumerian, Manding and the Genetic

Model". International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics,18(1):98-127.

__________. (1989b). "Review of Dr. Asko Parpola's 'The Coming of the Aryans'",International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 18(2):98-127.

__________. (1990). "The Dravido-Harappan Colonization of Central Asia". Central Asiatic Journal, 34(1/2):120-144.

___________. (1991). "The Proto-Sahara". The Dravidian Encyclopaedia, (Trivandrum: International School of Dravidian Linguistics) pp.553-556. Volume l.

----------.(1994). Afrocentrism: A valid frame of reference, Journal of Black Studies, 25 (2), 170-190.

_________.(1994b). The Dravidian and African laguages, International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics, 23 (1), 34-52.

________.2007. Afrocentrism Myth or Science.www.lulu.com Here


Woodson, C.G. & Wesley, C.H. (1972). The Negro in Our History. Washington, D.C. Associated Publisher.


Get up off your knees and learn from the Afro-American scholars who began the study of Blacks in ancient history.



In conclusion, Afrocentrism is a mature social science. A social science firmly rooted in the scholarship of Afro-American researchers lasting almost 200 years. Researchers like Marc Washington, Mike and I are continuing a tradition of scholarship began 20 decades ago. All we are doing is confirming research by DuBois and others, that has not been disconfirmed over the past 200 years.


Aluta continua.....The struggle continues.....

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Clyde Winters
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Only Euronuts and their negro and asian flunkies believe the Dravidians did not come from Africa.

It was Dravidians who proved that Dravidian speaking people originated in Africa, and that Dravidians and Africans are related historically and genetically.

K.P. Aravanan, former Vice-Chancellor of Manonmaniyam Sundaranar University


 -

Dravidian speaking people recognize their African heritage. See:

Aravanan KP. 1976. ''Physical and cultural similarities between Dravidians and Africans''. Journal of Tamil Studies 10:23–27;

Aravanan KP. 1979. "Notable negroid elements in Dravidian India". J Tamil Studies 20–45.

Aravanan KP. 1980. Dravidians and Africans, Madras.

 -

LOL. These Dravidians do not look like caucasoids.
.


U. P. Upadhyaya and S.P. Upadhyaya

 -

1. 'Dravidian and Negro-African', U.P.Upadhyaya, Intnl. J. of Dravidian Linguisitsics 5:1 (1976) 32-64

2. U. P.Upadhyaya & S.P.Upadhyaya, 'Affinites ethno-linguistiques entre Dravidiens et les Negro-Africain' , Bull. IFAN , no.1 (1976) pp.127-157

3. U. P. Upadhyaya & S.P. Upadhyaya, 'Les liens entre Kerala et l"Afrique tels qu'ils resosortent des survivances culturelles et linguistiques', Bulletin de L'IFAN , no.1 (1979) pp.100-132
quote:


 -  -

A Speaker of the Tulu Dravidian Language


2009

In a small discrete village of Majur, around three kilometres from Kaup on the road to Shirva, adjacent to 300 years old temple of Shri Durga Parameshwari, lives an elderly couple-Dr. Uliyar Padmanabha Upadhyaya (76 years) and Dr. Susheela P Upadhyaya (73 years). When i met them in mid-August they appeared to be frail, simple, unassuming, friendly and warm. After interacting with them for two hours, i had nothing but awe, admiration and reverence to this great couple whose scholarship in linguistics and folk culture especially that of the Tulunadu has been appreciated by scholars not only in India but also in Europe, America and Africa. Their monumental contribution to the Tulu language is the Tulu Lexicon (Tulu Nighantu) in six volumes, which they value the most as their labour of love and sacrifice. Besides, this significant work, their numerous research books and articles on the folk culture and literature of Tulunadu has enriched the Tuluva heritage.

.


 -

.

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The original inhabitants of the Sahara where the Kemetic civilization originated were Blacks not Berbers or Indo-European speakers. These Blacks formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. This ancient homeland of the Dravidians, Egyptians, Sumerians, Niger-Kordofanian-Mande

and Elamite speakers is called the Fertile African Crescent. ( Anselin, 1989, p.16; Winters, 1981,1985b,1991). We call these people the Proto-Saharans (Winters 1985b,1991). The generic term for this group is Kushite. This explains the analogy between the Bafsudraalam languages outlined briefly above. These Proto-Saharans were called Ta-Seti and Tehenu by the Egyptians. Farid (1985,p.82) noted that "We can notice that the beginning of the Neolithic stage in Egypt on the edge of the Western Desert corresponds with the expansion of the Saharian Neolithic cultureand the growth of its population".

The inhabitants of the Fezzan were round headed Africans. (Jelinek, 1985,p.273) The cultural characteristics of the Fezzanese were analogous to C-Group culture items and the people of Ta-Seti . The C-Group people occupied the Sudan and Fezzan regions between 3700-1300 BC (Jelinek 1985).

The inhabitants of Libya were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South. (Diop 1986) A Tehenu
personage is depicted on Amratian period pottery (Farid 1985 ,p. 84). The Tehenu wore pointed beard, phallic-sheath and feathers on their head.

The Temehus are called the C-Group people by archaeologists(Jelinek, 1985; Quellec, 1985). The central Fezzan was a center of C-Group settlement. Quellec (1985, p.373) discussed in detail the presence of C-Group culture traits in the Central Fezzan along with their cattle during the middle of the Third millennium BC.

The Temehus or C-Group people began to settle Kush around 2200 BC. The kings of Kush had their capital at Kerma, in Dongola and a sedentary center on Sai Island. The same pottery found at Kerma is also present in Libya especially the Fezzan.



The C-Group founded the Kerma dynasty of Kush. Diop (1986, p.72) noted that the "earliest substratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara". Kerma was first inhabited in the 4th millennium BC (Bonnet 1986). By the 2nd millennium BC Kushites at kerma were already worshippers of Amon/Amun and they used a distinctive black-and-red ware (Bonnet 1986; Winters 1985b,1991). Amon, later became a major god of the Egyptians during the 18th Dynasty.


The linguistic, anthropological and linguistic data make it clear that these people came to India from Africa during the Neolithic and not the Holocene period.

In the sub-continent of India, there were several main groups. The traditional view for the population origins in India suggest that the earliest inhabitants of India were the Negritos, and this was followed by the Proto-Australoid, the Mongoloid and the so-called mediterranean type which represent the ancient Egyptians and Kushites (Clyde A. Winters, "The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians",Tamil Civilizations 3, no.1(1985), pp.1-9. (http://olmec98.net/Fertile1.pdf ). The the Proto-Dravidians were probably one of the cattle herding groups that made up the C-Group culture of Nubia Kush (K.P. Aravanan, "Physical and Cultural Similarities between Dravidian and African", Journal of Tamil Studies, no.10 (1976, pp.23-27:24. ).

B.B. Lal ("The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia:Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963) and Indian Egyptologist has shown conclusively that the Dravidians originated in the Saharan area 5000 years ago. He claims they came from Kush, in the Fertile African Crescent and were related to the C-Group people who founded the Kerma dynasty in the 3rd millennium B.C. (Lal 1963) The Dravidians used a common black-and-red pottery, which spread from Nubia, through modern Ethiopia, Arabia, Iran into India as a result of the Proto-Saharan dispersal.


B.B. Lal (1963) a leading Indian archaeologist in India has observed that the black and red ware (BRW) dating to the Kerma dynasty of Nubia, is related to the Dravidian megalithic pottery. Singh (1982) believes that this pottery radiated from Nubia to India. This pottery along with wavy-line pottery is associated with the Saharo-Sudanese pottery tradition of ancient Africa .


Aravaanan (1980) has written extensively on the African and Dravidian relations. He has illustrated that the Africans and Dravidian share many physical similarities including the dolichocephalic indexes (Aravaanan 1980,pp.62-263; Raceand History.com,2006), platyrrhine nasal index (Aravaanan 1980,pp.25-27), stature (31-32) and blood type (Aravaanan 1980,34-35; RaceandHistory.com,2006). Aravaanan (1980,p.40) also presented much evidence for analogous African and Dravidian cultural features including the chipping of incisor teeth and the use of the lost wax process to make bronze works of arts (Aravaanan 1980,p.41).

There are also similarities between the Dravidian and African religions. For example, both groups held a common interest in the cult of the Serpent and believed in a Supreme God, who lived in a place of peace and tranquility ( Thundy, p.87; J.T. Cornelius,"Are Dravidians Dynastic Egyptians", Trans. of the Archaeological Society of South India 1951-1957, pp.90-117; and U.P. Upadhyaya, "Dravidian and Negro-African", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics 5, no.1) .

There are also affinities between the names of many gods including Amun/Amma and Murugan . Murugan the Dravidian god of the mountains parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains .


There is physical evidence which suggest an African origin for the Dravidians. The Dravidians live in South India. The Dravidian ethnic group includes the Tamil, Kurukh, Malayalam, Kananda (Kanarese), Tulu, Telugu and etc. Some researchers due to the genetic relationship between the Dravidians and Niger-Congo speaking groups they call the Indians the Sudroid (Indo-African) Race(RaceandHistory,2006).

Dravidian languages are predominately spoken in southern India and Sri Lanka. There are around 125 million Dravidian speakers. These languages are genetically related to African languages. The Dravidians are remnants of the ancient Black population who occupied most of ancient Asia and Europe.

Linguistic Evidence

1.1 Many scholars have recognized the linguistic unity of Black African (BA) and Dravidian (Dr.) languages. These affinities are found not only in the modern African languages but also that of ancient Egypt. These scholars have made it clear that lexical, morphological and phonetic unity exist between African languages in West and North Africa as well as the Bantu group.

1.2 K.P. Arvaanan (1976) has noted that there are ten common elements shared by BA languages and the Dr. group. They are (1) simple set of five basic vowels with short-long consonants;(2) vowel harmony; (3) absence of initial clusters of consonants; (4) abundance of geminated consonants; (5) distinction of inclusive and exclusive pronouns in first person plural; (6) absence of degrees of comparison for adjectives and adverbs as distinct morphological categories; (7) consonant alternation on nominal increments noticed by different classes; (8)distinction of completed action among verbal paradigms as against specific tense distinction;(9) two separate sets of paradigms for declarative and negative forms of verbs; and (l0) use of reduplication for emphasis.

1.3 There has been a long development in the recognition of the linguistic unity of African and Dravidian languages. The first scholar to document this fact was the French linguist L. Homburger (1950,1951,1957,1964). Prof. Homburger who is best known for her research into African languages was convinced that the Dravidian languages explained the morphology of the Senegalese group particularly the Serere, Fulani group. She was also convinced that the kinship existed between Kannanda and the Bantu languages, and Telugu and the Mande group. Dr. L. Homburger is credited with the discovery for the first time of phonetic, morphological and lexical parallels between Bantu and Dravidians

1.6 By the 1970's numerous scholars had moved their investigation into links between Dr. and BA languages on into the Senegambia region. Such scholars as Cheikh T. N'Diaye (1972) a Senegalese linguist, and U.P. Upadhyaya (1973) of India , have proved conclusively Dr. Homburger's theory of unity between the Dravidian and the Senegalese languages.

1.7 C.T. N'Diaye, who studied Tamil in India, has identified nearly 500 cognates of Dravidian and the Senegalese languages. Upadhyaya (1973) after field work in Senegal discovered around 509 Dravidian and Senegambian words that show full or slight correspondence.
.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Only Euronuts and their negro and asian flunkies believe the Dravidians did not come from Africa.


It was between 1500 and 1200 B.C. that the Dravidian Albinos who had originally migrated from Africa into India and then continued North into Central Asia, to escape the Burning Sunshine found at lower latitudes returned to India.


^^^ Clyde, is this also correct?

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

I am very much interested in what info you have on the Garamantes.

.

The only thing I can say about Minoan Crete and
the Garamante is this. Minoan Crete beginnings
date to 2200 BCE. By 1300 BCE Minoan Crete was
finished. Garamante enter the scene ~1000 BCE
and Garama/Jerma hegemony over trans-Saharan
was solidified ~550 BCE.

This is inline with the Greek myth of Garamas
Amphithetis, whose mother was named Akakallis,
a Minoan princess, in that his mother's banishment
may echo Crete's end and the direction some
may've taken if desiring to leave the island
rather than submit to Mykenaean suzereignty.

I don't think North African mtDNA supports
Aegean women as mothers of ancient peoples
(Nasamonians, Garamantes) in what's now Libya.
Ancient DNA, if recoverable, would reveal if
these peoples female line was either Aegean,
or the same as todays, or of some no longer
extant lineage.

The other Garamas of Greek myth was Mother
Earth's son and authochthonous to Libya.
The Greeks claimed this myth was learned
from the Libyans themselves. It places
Garamas before agriculture

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

THE OLYMPIAN CREATION MYTH

in
Robert Graves

The Greek Myths

New York: George Braziller, Inc., 1959
Chapter 3 (in any edition)

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

... you say the Hekatonchieres (hundred-handers) are connected with Libyo-Thracians.

.

The Hekatoncheres Libyo-Thracian thing wasn't me.
Everything in that complete repost is by Graves.

quote:
... is Graves merely making wild speculations on etymology or rather typology ...
.

Graves' credentials are those of a mythographer.

quote:
Graves seems to identify the Garama with a goddess in Anatolia and Greece. How true is this,
.

I trust his myth analyses.

quote:
Libyo-Thracians. So this means both Libyans and Thracians? How so, and what is the connection between these two people??
.

He however gives no sources for his takes on
history and ethnology. Same for his linguistics.
Graves takes it for granted his readership will
be familiar with those from 1950's mainstream
academia. Libyo-Thracians best means either
those Thracians of Libyan extraction or all
peoples in a vector terminaled at Libya and
Thrace, more so the latter. Here's what Graves
says on the aegis, Libyans, and finally Thrace:

quote:

THE BIRTH OF ATHENE


According to the Pelasgians, the goddess Athene was born beside
Lake Tritonis in Libya
, where she was found and nurtured by the
three nymphs of Libya, who dress in goat-skins. ... Coming to
Greece by way of Crete, she lived in the city of Athenae by the
Boetian river Triton.

1. Plato identified Athene, patroness of Athens, with the Libyan
goddess Neith, who belonged to an epoch when fatherhood was not
recognized. Neith had a temple at Sais, where Solon was treated
well merely because he was an Athenian.
...
The aegis, however, a magical goat-skin bag containing a serpent
and protected by a Gorgon mask, was Athene's long before Zeus
claimed to be her father. Goat-skin aprons were the habitual
costume of Libyan girls
, ... Herodotus writes" 'Athene's garments
and aegis were borrowed by the Greeks from the Libyan women, who
are dressed in exactly the same way, except that their leather
garments are fringed with thongs not serpents.' Ethiopian girls
still wear this costume, which is sometimes ornamented with cowries,
a yonic symbol. Herodotus adds here that the loud cries of triumph,
olulu, olulu, uttered in honour of Athene [in the Illiad 6.297-301]
were of Libyan origin. ...

2. Pottery finds suggest a Libyan immigration into Crete as
early as 4000 BC
; and a large number of goddess-worshipping
Libyan refugees from the Western Delta
seemed to have arrived
there when Upper and Lower Egypt were forcefully united under
the 1st Dynasty about the year 3000 BC. The 1st Minoan Age
began soon afterwards, and Cretan culture spread to Thrace
and early Hellenic Greece
.

.

Graves notes two Minoan African components. One
derived from 4th millenium Libya and the other a
1000 years later from Western Delta Egypt. This
impetus is marked by a goat-skin associated goddess.
For whatever there reasons valid or invalid Current
scholarship looks askance at Libyan flow to Crete as
much as it does Neith Athene identity.

Graves makes absolutely no comment on Garamantes
going to Crete or Greece. He gives the Greek myth
of an exiled Minoan princess bound for Libya and
later the birth of her son Garama Amphithemis sire
to Nasamona and Kaphauros per the Argonautica 4.1490 (link)

quote:

Acacallis was Apollo's first love; ... he found
Acacallis at the house of Carmanor, ... and
seduced her. minos was vexed, and banished
Acacallis to Libya where, some say, she became
the mother of Garamas, though others claim that
he was the first man ever born.


.

quote:
I thought the Greek legend was that the Aegean Sea was named after the Mycenaean king Aegeus
.

Yes, Graves interjected his theory but later
relates the actual Greek myth of Aegeus death
in that sea which took Aegeus' name in Aegean.

Why not borrow Graves? Guarantee you'll find
it fascinating and may even want to buy a copy.

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Tukuler
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Graves says

1. Garamantes are of Cushite and Berber ancestry
2. Garamantes were subdued by the Lemta in the 2nd century
3. Garamantes later moved to the Upper Niger river
4. Garamantes married with and learned the language of the people there


His etymology of Gara-man-te as "Gara's state people"
echoes they were named after their polity, i.e., Garama
-- Gara state -- and that te is an appended suffix. So,
I don't know, Graves doesn't indicate which language he
relied on to yield that breakdown.

The Greco-Latin word Garamas is closer to the
actual name those people used for their 2nd
capital city Garama/Jarma with an appended s
common to many Greek nouns.

The Greco-Latin word Garamante comes from the
native name for the later capital city Garama/
Jerma. The nte is apparently a Latin suffix
tacked onto the ethnic name of various Saharan
Africa peoples.

It appears the Garama never called themselves the
Garamante. We just have Garama/Djerma as names used
in the region itself. Greek mythology gives them an
eponymous ancestor Garamas. The Greeks say that Libyans
claimed Garamas to be the first human to issue from Gaea.

All this being so, the word Garamante seems to be made
up of Garama + nte. The nte part doesn't seem to be from
those people themselves and thus may not be African in
source.

quote:

Garamantes populi Africae prope Cyrenas
inhabitantes, a Garamante rege Apollinis
filio nominati, qui ibi ex suo nomine Garama
oppidum condidit.


Isidori Hispalensis Episcopi

Etymologiarum sive Originum

9.2.125

The Garama in the above citation is the guy who's mum
was Akakallis not the one who was born of sleeping Gaea.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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Occurences of Greco-Latins appending nte to African ethnies.

Garama-ntes ____ Garamas
Alta-ntes ______ Atlas

The above two are a perfect match
Two more examples below

Atara-nte
Zyga-nte
Gamphaza-nte
Gyza-nte

-antes appears to be a Greco-Latin suffix.

Noun forming suffixes

Suffix __ Meaning ________ Origin


ant ____ thing or one who ____ Latin
ance ___ state of being ______ Latin


Garamante is the people, Garamantia the nation.
Again all this is from a non-African language base.
The African language(s) this is based on has the
word Garama/Djerma/Jerma (soft g like a j not a
hard g like in gate).

Since neither Garamas nor Garama have an nte
in them we conclude nte is a suffix not found on
the name of Garamas the eponymous ancestor
nor on Garama the city named after Garamas.
Thus the nte suffix holds well when appended
to Garama making Garama-nte mean those of
Garama(s)
just as the Atla-nte are those of
Atlas
.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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According to Golden Age of the Moors contributing
author and EgyptSearch poster Dana Reynolds-Marniche
Garama/Djerma means 'place of the Gara' in Teda-
Kanuri dialects. She is also of the opinion that
the Garamantes are so named by the Greco-Latins
after their later capital city Garama/Djerma.

Gabriel Camps finds the meaning of Garamantes in the 'Berber' languages.
quote:

Le nom même des Garamantes signifierait « les gens des maisons ». La racine arhrham ,
« maison, construction », est une racine pan-berbère. Les nombreuses ruines de l'oued
El-Agial témoignent en faveur de cette hypothèse.

In his view the root arhrham, which is in all 'Berber' dialects is the
etymology for Garama. The root is supposed to mean house(s) or
building(s).

All reasonable points should be developed and looked into though
no one should be forcibly swayed to adopt any conclusion they
feel is less tenable. I bring supporting evidence and reasoning for
Garamante <-- Garama <-- Garamas which tends to negate that
mante is any integral factor of Garamante since both Garamas
and Garama, the native words, have ma but lack mante backing
the idea that nte was tacked onto Garama by the Greco-Latins.

Graves leads us to suppose Garamantes originally spoke
either a Cushite and/or 'Berber' language which sometime
after the 2nd century Lemta subjection they abandoned for
a language spoken in the Upper Niger Valley where they
found refuge.

He thinks the last remnant of the Garamante are still found
in a village named Koromantse. That may be but I find no
place Koromantse in eastern Guinea or south Mali. I can
find Koromantee, a habitation and ethny of Akan speakers
in Ghana somewhere near the Prah river. Koromante is
alternatively spelled Acromanti.

BTW Chris Ehret says it's unknown what Garamantes
spoke but limits it to either Teda or Tamasheq lects.

quote:
One of the interesting questions to be resolved is
whether the language of the Garamantes was a Berber
tongue or an early form of Tibu, a Saharo-Sahelian
language spoken then as now in the adjacent Tibesti
Mountains just south of the Fezzan.


Civilizations of Africa p.222


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Tukuler
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Drake (2010) with Blench as writer and
edited by bar-Yosef doesn't see Holocene
peopling of the central Sahara by Gafsian
but by Saharo-Sudanese/Aqualithic culture
with Nilo-Saharan speakers (as are Tubu)
quote:

We hypothesize that the differences in animal resources
between the northern and southern Sahara during the early
Holocene influenced the way it was peopled by humans. The
north–south contrast in Saharan species ranges are remarkably
similar to some key lithic, bone tool, and linguistic spatial
distributions, suggesting that the peopling of the region
during the early Holocene humid phase was driven by cultural
adaptations that allowed exploitation of specific fauna.

The early Holocene archaeology of the Sahara is characterized
by a regional distribution of specific archaeological cultures,
such as those defined by barbed bone points, fishhooks, Ounanian
arrow-points, and, more controversially, pottery (32, 35–38).
The Sahara today is largely populated by speakers of Afroasiatic
languages, Berber and Arabic, with some Nilo-Saharan languages
(Teda-Daza and Zaghawa) in the region of Northern Chad, and
Songhay cluster languages scattered across Mali and Niger
(Fig. 3). However, it is clear that this situation is recent;
Berber speaking Tuareg moved into the Central Sahara ~1500 y
ago ... Before this time, the central and southern Sahara are
thought to have been populated by Nilo-Saharan speakers.




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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Nikita says that its ''most likely'' that modern Berbers and the Garamantes population attained the practice from the Nile Valley, likely because of what I said earlier; the tendency to see discontinuity between Epi-Palaeolithic Maghrebi populations and modern Berber populations.

I provided a quote from Nikita2011 Evidence
of Trephinations among the Garamantes
that
only the Garamas and the Tibu out of all
the Saharans throughout all time practiced
trephination.

Nikita's 2012 3D Cranial shape analysis statement
"Moreover, the knowhow for the Garamantian subterranean
irrigation channels (foggaras) and medical practices,
like trephinations, was most likely introduced from
Egypt (Nikita et al., in press; Wilson, 2003)." may
as you say intuitively have something to do with Epi-
paleolithic non-continuity notions. But I rather saw
it based on hard data in the 2011 study as follows:

quote:
In North Africa, we find the earliest evidence of
trephinations in the world. For example, there were
three trephined skulls from the Epipalaeolithic site
of Taforalt, Morocco (12000–11000BC), and two
from Afalou-bou-Rhumel, Algeria (8500–6500BC).
The practice continued into later archaeological periods
among the Egyptians. Evidence of trephinations
has been found in one skull from the 12th Dynasty at
Lisht, a 17th–19th Dynasty man from Sesebi, a
27th Dynasty young individual (12–13years) from
Dakhleh Oasis, an adult man from Saqqara
and others. In addition to the aforementioned evidence,
the Edwin Smith papyrus shows that the Egyptians
had a good understanding of neuroanatomy and
head injuries. Outside Egypt, this form
of surgery is rather rare in North Africa, with very few
exceptions.
For example, a trephined skull was found
in the 1st millennium BC site of Roknia, Algeria. Another one was documented in
an Egyptian fort in Nubia, although it is not clear
whether the individual exhibiting the lesion was an
Egyptian or a Nubian. Finally, there
is a questionable case of a female from Meroe. In modern times, the practice became common
among Berber groups in order to relieve problems of
headaches following injuries or disease. More specifically, populations known to have
practised trephinations in the 19th–20th centuries are
the Chaouïa Berbers from Algeria, the neighbouring Arab community from El
Kantara and the Tibu or Teda
of the Tibesti.

.


Nikita is simply giving the locations
through time where trephinated skulls
in fact exist not merely postulated.
It's a long time from Gafsian culture
to the Garama federation without any
trephinated skulls in the chotts or
desert in between Gafsa and Fezzan
The shortest line timewise is Nile
to Fezzan.

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Tukuler
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So I find myself wondering and asking
where is Gafsa trephination reported?
Afalou bou Rhumel and Taforalt are even
more far away from Garama than Gafsa is
both physically and especially so temporally.

Taforalt / Afalou-bou-Rhumel / Gafsa
are part of an Atlas world not the
Saharan world of Fezzan.

 -
 -
 -


Garama being located nearer Fezzan/Acacus/
Ajjer, all four in the Sahara form a more
likely cultural continuity than Garama
would with non-Sahara Gafsa. And I don't
mean as the desert today but the Sahara
going from green to sand.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Nikita is simply giving the locations
through time where trephinated skulls
in fact exist not merely postulated.
It's a long time from Gafsian culture
to the Garama federation without any
trephinated skulls in the chotts or
desert in between Gafsa and Fezzan
The shortest line timewise is Nile
to Fezzan.

Sure, but given the peculiarity of the practice, the ancestral continuity of the prehistoric and modern Maghrebi populations in question, as well as the repeated occurrences of the practice in Algeria in both Epi-Palaeolithic times and Iron age, I think it makes more sense to think of it as continuation rather than who knows how many independent innovations in the same expansive region. Unless we're of the mindset that the Maghrebi cranium collections excavated so far represent every soul ever born in the Maghreb, I'm not at all convinced that the apparent absence of the this practice in preserved craniums after the Epi-Palaeolithic can be used as evidence that it was absent.

Interestingly, the practice somewhat parallels the Epi-Palaeolithic Maghrebi and the African phenotyped Shuqbah Natufian practice of tooth evulsion, which, at first glance doesn't seems to have been passed on to the Sudan as it is absent in contemporary Sudani representatives like the Epi-Palaeolithic Jebel Sahaba and the Mesolithic Wadi Halfa, but guess what, some modern Sudanic tribes practice it. We can agree to disagree, but as far as I'm concerned, the sheer peculiarity of North African traits like tooth evulsion and trephination precludes them from being easily brushed off as repeated independent innovations whenever they seemingly appear to be separated in time and space. I'm not buying it.

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Taforalt / Afalou-bou-Rhumel / Gafsa
are part of an Atlas world not the
Saharan world of Fezzan.

Archaeologically and phenotypically, ''Proto-Mediterranean'' Capsian populations gradually transitioned into modern Maghrebi populations (I'm avoiding 'Berber' so as to not solicit any more distractions about who or what Berber speakers are). There are several thousand years in between terminal Capsian and the Garamantes kingdom. What exactly is against Tunisian post Capsian cultured populations gradually settling the Fezzan? I mean, Neolithic Capsian populations already permeated into Northern Libya. See my aforementioned references to Tunisian and Tuareg Capsian associated mtDNA H and V lineages. As I've alluded to earlier, H1 so far has the highest Maghrebi diversity in Tunisia and the highest frequency in Fezzan Tuareg.
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Tukuler
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Mainly why I said trephination is not a strong
indicator is because it's widespread and seems
each people has their own technique. You don't
buy that? OK by me.

I already put up maps showing Gafsa the place
and its cultures are way far from Fezzan in
space, time, culture, economy, etc. But yes
people may have moved in either direction to
either place but where's the evidence? What
would the evidence even be?

Earliest Garamante followed late pastoral. Is the late
pastoral from Gafsian or from Tasilli/Acacus? What was
pastored? Cattle? Ovicaprines? Both?

I'm sticking to a Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan Garamante
continuum as most parsimonious since the three are
all right next to each other and the rock art shows
a multi-ethnic society and physically Garamante by
eye witness accounts were variegated Africans with
no "Eurasians" among them per the ancients.

I'm no authority and I don't know it all and I'm
much more interested in increasing my knowledge
on this matter via documented scholarship than
speculation. Of course speculation carefully
leaping from valid sources is what we also
need to do.

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Was there technique diversity in the Algerian Epi-Palaeolithic, metal age and modern Algerian instances of trephination? Please specify. What I don't buy into is not something as trivial as the use of separate techniques, what I don't buy is that the (idea of the) practice itself was independently invented 3 times, in the Maghreb.

Your map only depicts early Capsian sites, not Neolithic/terminal Capsian sites extending well into Northern Libya. It doesn't even depict the full extent of Upper Capsian sites as the sites clearly don't go deep into Algeria. What evidence are you referring to that I'm not posting? I've referred several times now to mtDNA H1 and V and even asked you explicitly to address this genetic data that seemingly points to Capsian heritage in Tuareg, among others. Again, please give your take on this genetic evidence and what role you think it suggests for the Tuareg in the Tunisian/Libyan area, if not long term inhabitation.

You say you're sticking to a Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan Garamante continuum but at the same time seem to oppose Tuareg links to the Garamantes kingdom. How are these necessarily mutually exclusive? What modern Libyan ethnic group would this Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan mix translate into, and would this amalgam not contradict your link of the Garamantes with the Tebu, who are clearly a Chadic population, with Chadic ancestry? You also mentioned Tebu tomb architecture as far West as South Central Algeria, please specify how you've come to this conclusion.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Occurences of Greco-Latins appending nte to African ethnies.

Garama-ntes ____ Garamas
Alta-ntes ______ Atlas

The above two are a perfect match
Two more examples below

Atara-nte
Zyga-nte
Gamphaza-nte
Gyza-nte

-antes appears to be a Greco-Latin suffix.

Noun forming suffixes

Suffix __ Meaning ________ Origin


ant ____ thing or one who ____ Latin
ance ___ state of being ______ Latin


Garamante is the people, Garamantia the nation.
Again all this is from a non-African language base.
The African language(s) this is based on has the
word Garama/Djerma/Jerma (soft g like a j not a
hard g like in gate).

Since neither Garamas nor Garama have an nte
in them we conclude nte is a suffix not found on
the name of Garamas the eponymous ancestor
nor on Garama the city named after Garamas.
Thus the nte suffix holds well when appended
to Garama making Garama-nte mean those of
Garama(s)
just as the Atla-nte are those of
Atlas
.

We have debated this interpretation of Garamante before.

As I noted in 2010



I could not find these suffixes with the meanings you give in any Latin dictionaries:


Unversity of Notre Dame on=line Grammar and dictionary
-ante= ‘before, in front. forward

Lewis and Short On-line Dictionary

v *ant 1 3p pr act ind they see, they do see, they are seeing
v *ant 2-5 3p pr act sub they might see, should they see.

ent (-ient), -ant (iant) equivalent to the English present participial ending -ing (-ens, -ans) p.209

See:

students.washington.edu/nwk/clas205/suffixes.html


I could not find the ending antes

It appears that many Latin names for countries ended in -nia.

Albion Great Britain

Britannia Great Britain

Caledonia Scotland

Germania Germany

Hibernia Ireland

The term Mande equals "mother's child", indicating that these Mande speakers belonged to matriarchial societies, as opposed to Bambara "fathers child". Use of the term Mante/Mande probably indicated that these tribes living in the Fezzan belonged to matriarchial societies.

This indicates that these people in the Fezzan were called Garamantes--not Garama.

Pliny the Elder wrote"clarissimumque Garama caput Garamantum, the "well known Garam capital, of the Garamantes". Thus we see that Garama was the name of the capital city of the Garamantes.


The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.

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What we know about the Garamante comes from the Greeco-Roman writers.

These scholars maintain that the Garamante usually sailed to the Islands in the Aegean and the surrounding coast where they established prosperous trading communities.

There is frequent mention of the Garamantes of the Fezzan, in Classical literature of Greece and Rome. The Garamantes were recognized as a Black tribe. They were known to the Greeks and Romans as dark skinned. In Ptolemy (I.8.5.,p.31) a Garamante slave was described as having a body the color of pitch or wholly black.

The Garamantes or Carians originally lived in the Fezzan. These Garamante were described by the Latin classical writers as black or dark skinned: perusti (Lucan 4.679), furvi (Arnoloius, Adversus Nationes , 6.5) and nigri (Anthologia Latina, 155,no.183).

Graves (1980) and Leo Frobenius linked the Garamante to the ancient empire of Ghana (c.300 BC to A.D. 1100). Graves (1980) claims that the term Garamante is the Greek plural for Garama or Garamas. He said that the present Jarama or Jarma are the descendants of the Garamante; and that the Jarama live near the Niger river.

The Olympian creation myth, as recorded by Pindar in Fragment , and Apollonius Rhodius, makes it clear that the Garamantes early colonized Greece. Their descendants were called Carians. The Carians practiced apiculture. As in Africa the Carians practiced matrilineal descent. According to Herodotus , even up until his time the Carians took the name of their mother.

Many of the Greek myths are historical text which discuss the transition of Greece from an matriarchal society to a patriarchal Aryan society. The term Amazon was often used by the Aryans to denote matriarchal societies living on the Black Sea. The battle between Thesus and the Amazons, led by Queen Melanippe, records the conflicts between the ancient Aryan-Greeks and the Libyco-Nubians settled around the Black Sea.
The classical Carians and Egyptians were very close. Having originated in the Fertile African Crescent they had similar gods and cultural traditions dating back to the Proto-Saharan period.

The Garamantes founded Attica, where they worked the mines at Laureium. Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fruitfulness, came from the Fezzan (Libya) by way of Crete. It was Demeter who took poppy seeds and figs to Europe.

The Greco-Roman literature provides us with the following facts:

1. The Garamante originated in the Fezzan;
2. The Garamante founded civilization in Minoan-Crete

This leads to the inference that if the Eteo-cretans were Garamante they spoke the Garamante lanuage.The hypothesis resulting from the earlier hyp[othesis is that if we compare the language spoken by the Garamante in Crete, to a language spoken in Africa today we may be able to find the identity of the Garamante.

We can test this hypothesis because the ancient Egyptians recorded the language spoken by the eteo-cretans, who they called in their language Keftiu.


The Egyptians called the Cretans Keftiu. There is agreement between the Keftiu names recorded by Egyptian scribes and Manding names. These Garamante names come from T.E. Peet, "The Egyptian writing board BM5647 bearing Keftiu names". In: Essays in Aegean Archaeology , (ed.) by S Casson (Oxford, 1927, 90-99).


Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.

On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:

Keftiu....... Manding

sh h.r........ Sye

Nsy ..........Nsye

'ksh .........Nkyi

Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)

'dm ..........Demba

Rs............. Rsa

This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.

In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. It also supports the idea that Garamante was a tribal name resulting from the Mande origin of this population--not that they were named after their capital city.

The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.




'

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Tukuler
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It's not worth my time to get into this with
you here. Rather than embarass your lingual
skills here, anyone interested in the easy
dismisal of your "refutation" can find it @
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/1574
ESR Forgotten Garamantes page3 5th post from bottom

Again the simple timeline of Minoa vs Garama
proves Crete was finished hundred of years
before Garamantia started.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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No Tuareg ethnic group(s) existed until after
Garama was finished. It's anachronistic to
speak of ancient and pre-historic North African
genetics in terms of Tuareg instead of what it
really is the generic genetics of a very broad
region in Africa where by the late Holocene
many distinct ethnies began forming up until today.

To the best of my meager knowledge the Kel
came into existence when people at the NW
coast of what today is Libya (Tripolitania
as the Greeks named this region) fled in
the face of Arab intrusion. Traveling south
they inhabited the Hoggar (Ahaggar after the
Hawara people, themselves immigrants later in
time than the Kels) mingling and mixing with
its inhabitants and other incoming peoples
to become "the Tuareg." At least this is the
majority Euro-centered take considering only
the northern or Sanhadja major phratry. Usually
ignored is the southern or banu Tanamak, the
other major phratry. Next to nothing cultural
aligns this 11th century ethny, Tuareg (both
phratries) to the Garama. Afaik, this applies
to Tubu too.

Thing is though, Ptolemy does mention one of
the Garamas people, Tedamansii, hundreds
of years before a people known as Targui
are first recorded, Targa being another
name for oasis Fezzan sites (though if
targa simply means garden I can't see
how it only applies to Fezzan oases but
as far as my researching goes it does.).

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
It's not worth my time to get into this with
you here. Rather than embarass your lingual
skills here, anyone interested in the easy
dismisal of your "refutation" can find it @
http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/post/1574
ESR Forgotten Garamantes page3 5th post from bottom

Again the simple timeline of Minoa vs Garama
proves Crete was finished hundred of years
before Garamantia started.

LOL. The fact remains that the Garamante were the founders of Cretan civilization. Evidence of the language spoken by these Garamante: Keftiu, is relevant to understanding the representatives of this tribe that remained in the Fezzan up to Roman times.

.

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Tukuler
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Fact? Ideaological dogma is what you mean.

Oh yes makes good sense that the father was born after the son. LOL indeed!

Those Libyans who helped form Minoa were not Garamante.

I've already posted above they likely came from the Western Delta.

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
No Tuareg ethnic group(s) existed until after
Garama was finished. It's anachronistic to
speak of ancient and pre-historic North African
genetics in terms of Tuareg instead of what it
really is the generic genetics of a very broad
region in Africa where by the late Holocene
many distinct ethnies began forming up until today.

To the best of my meager knowledge the Kel
came into existence when people at the NW
coast of what today is Libya (Tripolitania
as the Greeks named this region) fled in
the face of Arab intrusion. Traveling south
they inhabited the Hoggar (Ahaggar after the
Hawara people, themselves immigrants later in
time than the Kels) mingling and mixing with
its inhabitants and other incoming peoples
to become "the Tuareg." At least this is the
majority Euro-centered take considering only
the northern or Sanhadja major phratry. Usually
ignored is the southern or banu Tanamak, the
other major phratry. Next to nothing cultural
aligns this 11th century ethny, Tuareg (both
phratries) to the Garama. Afaik, this applies
to Tubu too.

Thing is though, Ptolemy does mention one of
the Garamas people, Tedamansii, hundreds
of years before a people known as Targui
are first recorded, Targa being another
name for oasis Fezzan sites (though if
targa simply means garden I can't see
how it only applies to Fezzan oases but
as far as my researching goes it does.).

Ptolemy does not mention a people called Garamas, he said the Tedamansii tribe was related to the Garamantes people. web page

.

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Tukuler
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Besides Tubu genetics, Haratin genetics is
also vital in understanding the genetic
history of the Sahara. Raise a cup to us
staying alive until such reports appear.

The field still accept Cavalli-Sforza's
classical nuclear markers defining Beja
(Cushitic) Tuareg (Berber) high affinity.
(Begin reading Cavalli-Sforza1994 p172here)
He posits a 5k split between the two. If
this map is correct Chadic and Berber do
originate near the same geography in line
with Ehret's proto-Chado-Berber.

 -

Initial routing on the map can show movement
of the Beja Cushitic ancestral component in
Tuareg along the same corridor as Chado-Berber
expansion. And WNW bound Nilo-Saharan utilized
this same route. Tubu are Nilo-Saharans.

No major migration was necessary and the
further from the initial contact points
the less of the E Africans. No E Africans
at all needed to be at furthest points of
the language shift of Cushitic Beja to
Tuareg Tamasheq and further on to "Berber."

E African mtDNA would thin out from Tschad
to Fezzan being totally absent in the
Maghreb and language shift still works.
But note Tishkoff2009's STRUCTURE analysis
Fig S13 show Beja and Mzabi essential not
distinct with Beja more E African and Mzabi
more Eurasian.

East African mtDNA in Fezzani Tuareg likely
represents the deme bearing the lect that
North Africans adopted, a proto-language
introduced from W Sudan.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Your map only depicts early Capsian sites, not Neolithic/terminal Capsian sites extending well into Northern Libya. It doesn't even depict the full extent of Upper Capsian sites as the sites clearly don't go deep into Algeria.

Hey my Fela, slow down. Go slow, go slow bruh. pt1

I posted 3 maps none of which are mine.

 -

The first clearly labeled Maurusian extent
and only the Gafsa originating nucleus not
Gafsa's full expansion.


 -

The second shows Late Paleolithic and Epi-
paleolithic sites without delineating any
cultures. Since Afalou-bou-Rhumel wasn't
on the first map I posted this one so all
can see Taforalt/Afalou-bou-Rhumel/Gafsa
are all part of an Atlas perimeter world
(at its closest 1000 km away from Fezzan)
vs a (80 km adjacent) Tassili/Akakus/Fezzan
 -
Sahara world. These two differing regions
necessitate different cultures, economies,
and ethnic groups.


 -

The third map with three African Neolithic zones;
1 - Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic,
2 - Gafsian Neolithic Tradition (not to be confused for either the earlier Gafsian or the earlier Upper Gafsian),
3 - Mediterranean Neolithic.
This map plainly has Gafsian Neolithic Tradition
in northern Libya and just as plainly has Acacus'
Wan Muhuggiag within the Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic
zone. It's a small 80 km stretch from Jabbaren in
Tassili to Ghat in SW Fezzan and an even lesser
distance from Ghat to the Akakus which is actually
in SW Fezzan just east of Ghat. The Acacus is the
site of the famous Uan Muhaggiag Mummy (dubbed the
Black Mummy in Eurocentric terminology).

Besides the obvious pre-Holocene industry
and later distinct Neolitic zones even the
proposed spread of ovicaprines delineate
these two different North African worlds.

 -

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

I've referred several times now to mtDNA H1 and V and even asked you explicitly to address this genetic data that seemingly points to Capsian heritage in Tuareg, among others. Again, please give your take on this genetic evidence and what role you think it suggests for the Tuareg in the Tunisian/Libyan area, if not long term inhabitation.

Slow down. Go slow, go slow. pt2

I thought I posted this on Friday but found out
I didn't so I posted it above today but will post
it here again where it counts.


No Tuareg ethnic group(s) existed until after
Garama was finished. It's anachronistic to
speak of ancient and pre-historic North African
genetics in terms of Tuareg instead of what it
really is the generic genetics of a very broad
region in Africa where by the late Holocene
many distinct ethnies began forming up until today.

To the best of my meager knowledge the Kel
came into existence when people at the NW
coast of what today is Libya (Tripolitania
as the Greeks named this region) fled in
the face of Arab intrusion. Traveling south
they inhabited the Hoggar (Ahaggar after the
Hawara people, themselves immigrants later in
time than the Kels) mingling and mixing with
its inhabitants and other incoming peoples
to become "the Tuareg." At least this is the
majority Euro-centered take considering only
the northern or Sanhadja major phratry. Usually
ignored is the southern or banu Tanamak, the
other major phratry.

Besides Tubu genetics, Haratin genetics is
also vital in understanding the genetic
history of the Sahara. Raise a cup to us
staying alive until such reports appear.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

Was there technique diversity in the Algerian Epi-Palaeolithic, metal age and modern Algerian instances of trephination? Please specify. What I don't buy into is not something as trivial as the use of separate techniques, what I don't buy is that the (idea of the) practice itself was independently invented 3 times, in the Maghreb.

Slow down. Go slow, go slow. pt3

The reason I say trephination is poor and weak
evidence of cultural continuity over thousands
of years is its found everywhere around the
globe.

I seriously doubt diffusion from the locale of
its first occurrence can account for it all
around the world.

How hard is it to think of relieving pressure
from something by poking a hole in it? That's
the idea that was applied to human skulls by
the most primitive of people the Maurusians
to modern day people coastal Berbers, Tubu,
etc. But the idea never caught on with Tuareg.

The technique and tools would have to vary from
the stone age to the bronze age to the iron age
to modern brain surgery.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

You say you're sticking to a Tassili/Acacus/Fezzan Garamante continuum but at the same time seem to oppose Tuareg links to the Garamantes kingdom.

Slow down. Go slow, go slow. pt4

I have absolutely no idea where you ever read me
saying anything even remotely resembling that.

What my researches don't reveal is Tuareg only
and totally discounting Tubu a priori without
first examining all the angles.

It may be obvious to you Tubu should be discounted
as latecomers like the Arabs but its not obvious to
me and a short multi-discipline complete appraisal
would help me see how you came to your conclusion.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Sources agree that Garama was name of their capital city. Garamante was the name for the tribe.


Garama was the name of the capital city of the Garamantes. Pliny the Elder wrote"clarissimumque Garama caput Garamantum, the "well known Garam capital, of the Garamantes".

See:

www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/20....ert.kingdom.htm


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.


The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.

I am curious if they may have been Songhai/Sonrai. They came from the north originally. Well all Mande did, but I am really curious to know if it could be them who had that kingdom.
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