quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: If you consider E descendant haplogroups to be African and F descendant to be foreign (Y-DNA). It's always surprising to find foreign DNA in any ancient populations. Like the black African presence is real but at the same time surprising and trivial in the Ancient Greece or Roman civilizations.
It's like the R-V88 found in high concentration in Cameroon or the high level of E haplogroup in the Balkans in Europe. It doesn't prevent those Balkans to look Europeans and those Cameroonian people to look (and 'be' of course) African in the full sense of the word.
In other words, someone can be 99% African and still carry a foreign haplogroup, like a F-descendant haplogroup. Y-DNA and MtDNA haplogroups form only a small part of your whole genome. Only the direct male and female line respectively.
This child for example can be a R-V88 carrier:
It's takes about 5 generations for some foreign Y-DNA to be over 90% localized if the foreign male and his descendents only intermarry with local females (and not within his foreign haplogroup).
For example, a F-descendant haplogroup can marry a local woman
1) F descendant male (R-V88 hg carrier) 100% foreign 2) Children with a local female = 50% foreign for the full genome (since about 50% comes from the local female) 3) their children = 25% 4) their children= 12.50% 5) and their children=6.25%
After 10 generations it must be much below 1% or in fact even much below 0.5%
(it's an approximation because it's not clear which genes will be transmitted from one generation to the next beside for Y-DNA of course which are only carried and transmitted from male to male)
Those children which only have 6.25% of foreign DNA after 5 generations (or less than 0.5% after 10 generations) still carry a F descendant haplogroup like R-V88. So in takes about 5 generations to be 93.75% local (when people only intermarry with locals and not within their haplogroups). In reality, it takes more generations since there's some level of intra-haplogroup interbreeding even if the majority of people around you are locals.
(obviously of those 6.25% DNA only a 0.1% are actually polymorphic in humans, but that's another subject)
If I made an error in my calculation or otherwise please tell me of course.
^"Haplogroup I is a descendent of suprahaplogroup F (encompassing haplogroup descendents G-T, see Figure 3).
Haplogroup F is thought to represent a second and later stage of human migration out of Africa 50 thousand years ago (kya)(see Figures 4 and 5)."
posted
Ahem! We sometimes eat the gravy and forget the steak on the plate. What is fascinating about the data is...BOTH the "first" and "second" AMH are represented in the NiloSaharans. With high frequency in ALL groups. This is not simple genetic drift. That is what my first guess would be hg-A or hg-e1b1b for AEians.
@Beyoku. Yeah That was a typo.
quote:Originally posted by Firewall: Wow i never seeen that chart before. I have to save it.
The dna info for the all nubian groups in sudan is not in that chart.
Keep in mind for the nubians that info is only for north sudan/nile valley nubians,not the central sudan or western sudan nubians in sudan.
The info for the A HAPLOGROUP for nubians(north sudan) is not included but other then that the overall info on average looks almost the same has the the info i posted awhile ago of course with some differences.
The songhai info looks interesting. I don't think i seen the info for the songhai before,but most of the others i have.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What???
Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
Those still holding to that opinion are more or less in agreement w/Hamiticism.
They base it on YAP or DE by parsimony.
And look out, don't call me sensitive after you call me a masochist and I retaliate. Don't start none won't be none.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Where the **** r u comin' from?
Who said RIII was unrelated to most Africans?
See what I wrote on RIII's hg based on that same BMJ Hawass2012
Slow the **** down
because I see shrouded Hamiticism in geneticists reports doesn't mean I believe or support Hamiticism
U r just lookin 4 a fight instead of digesting what I m sayin'
I'm not looking for a fight, I just disagree with you about that point about hamiticism, and I tell you why. Typical in a discussion forum. Don't be too sensitive. The Cruciani quote above refute your claims.
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posted
Oh. I see Lioness is ahead of me on this. Useful table. Lioness.
For those who don't get it. Isn't the Shilluk and Dinka, Masai, Hausa etc Caucasoid groups?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Thing is most of the geneticists reports support Hamiticism though they'd never admit it.
OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
Are you saying that about this?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No
What you list looks like nrY-mtDNA paired combos from I don't know where. I'm talking nrY of which
A & B are indisputably African w/no back migration ever proposed by anybody.
Because E comes from DE some see E as a back migration
They see DE as OoA D split and head east E split and went west (back to Africa)
Being aware of differing opinions does not equate to acceptance of all contradictory theories.
More to the point there are absolutely no posts in my 9 year history on ES where I even remotely hint at less lone support or agree with E back migration including the EA NA & Med E-M215 branch of E's phylogeny
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
where is the mention of E ?
They are talking a lot about the Fulbe in Cameroon
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214. Published online 2002 March 21. PMCID: PMC447595 A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
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Possible place of origin East Africa, or possibly Asia
Origins
Underhill (2001) proposed that haplogroup E may have arisen in East Africa. Some authors as Chandrasekar (2007), continue to accept the earlier position of Hammer (1997) that Haplogroup E may have originated in Asia, given that:
# E is a clade of Haplogroup DE, with the other major clade, haplogroup D, being East Asian.
# DE is a clade within M168 with the other two major clades, C and F, considered to have a Eurasian origin.
However, several discoveries made since the Hammer articles are thought to make an Asian origin less likely:
# Underhill and Kivisild (2007) demonstrated that C and F have a common ancestor meaning that DE has only one sibling which is non-African.
# DE* is found in both Asia and Africa, meaning that not only one, but several siblings of D are found in Asia and Africa.
# Karafet (2008), in which Hammer is a co-author, significantly rearranged time estimates leading to "new interpretations on the geographical origin of ancient sub-clades". Amongst other things this article proposed a much older age for haplogroup E-M96 than had been considered previously, giving it a similar age to Haplogroup D, and DE itself, meaning that there is no longer any strong reason to see it as an offshoot of DE which must have happened long after DE came into existence and had entered Asia.
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Possible place of origin Most probably South Asia, Southwest Asia or Middle East
Origins This megahaplogroup contains mainly lineages that are not typically found in sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting that its ancestral haplogroup CF may have been carried out of Africa very early in the modern human diaspora, and F-M89 may have appeared 48,000 (38,700-55,700) years ago, probably in Eurasia.
According to the phylogeographic distribution of haplotypes observed among South Asian populations defined by social and linguistic criteria, the possibility arose of haplogroup F might have originated in or near India, and F-M89* might share a common demographic history with H-M69, C5, R2 and L1. The presence of several subclusters of F-M89 and K that are largely restricted to the Indian subcontinent is consistent with the scenario that a coastal (southern route) of early human migration out of Africa carried ancestral Eurasian lineages first to the coast of the Indian subcontinent, or that some of them originated there.
Other sources mention that this ancient haplogroup may have first appeared in North Africa, the Levant, or the Arabian Peninsula as much as 50,000 years ago (50,300±6500). It is sometimes believed to represent a "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa. However, the location of this lineage's first expansion and rise to prevalence appears to have been in South Asia or somewhere close to it within the extended Middle East. All of Haplogroup F's descendant haplogroups also show a pattern of radiation from South Asia (haplogroups H, F* and K) or the Middle East (haplogroups G and IJ).
Several lineages derived from Haplogroup F-M89 appear to have migrated into Africa from a homeland in Southwest Asia sometime during prehistory. Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this hypothetical "Back to Africa" migration include J, R1b, and T.
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posted
Here's a basic (low resolution) Y-DNA phylogenetic tree:
It's always good too keep that in mind when discussing haplogroups. At higher resolution you could see for example the F haplogroup further splitting into I, J, R, K haplogroups etc. Same for A, B and E haplogroups.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Can you post info on hg F geographies and ethnies in Africa.
F is near to non existant in Africa, some in NA but at very low frequencies I can't find details. If it came frorm Africa it would have been from a very small group of people. It's origin is uncertain
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
Maybe you meant this other Euronut Cruciani paper ?>
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b [E-M215] Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa2004
Fulvio Cruciani,1 Roberta La Fratta,1 Piero Santolamazza,1 Daniele Sellitto,1,3 Roberto Pascone,2 Pedro Moral,5 Elizabeth Watson,6 Valentina Guida,4 Eliane Beraud Colomb,7 Boriana Zaharova,8 Joăo Lavinha,9 Giuseppe Vona,10 Rashid Aman,11,12 Francesco Calě,13 Nejat Akar,14 Martin Richards,15 Antonio Torroni,16 Andrea Novelletto,17 and Rosaria Scozzari1,
excerpts
Abstract We explored the phylogeography of human Y-chromosomal haplogroup E3b by analyzing 3,401 individuals from five continents. Our data refine the phylogeny of the entire haplogroup, which appears as a collection of lineages with very different evolutionary histories, and reveal signatures of several distinct processes of migrations and/or recurrent gene flow that occurred in Africa and western Eurasia over the past 25,000 years. In Europe, the overall frequency pattern of haplogroup E-M78 does not support the hypothesis of a uniform spread of people from a single parental Near Eastern population. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism. E-M34 chromosomes were more likely introduced in Ethiopia from the Near East. In conclusion, the present study shows that earlier work based on fewer Y-chromosome markers led to rather simple historical interpretations and highlights the fact that many population-genetic analyses are not robust to a poorly resolved phylogeny.
The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies <25% [Hammer et al. 2000, 2001; Semino et al. 2000; Scozzari et al. 2001; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004].
Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001]. E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion [Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al.
Our data show that haplogroup E3b appears as a collection of subclades with very different evolutionary histories. Haplogroup E-M78 was observed over a wide area, including eastern [21.5%] and northern [18.5%] Africa, the Near East [5.8%], and Europe [7.2%], where it represents by far the most common E3b subhaplogroup.
E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study], but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations [31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]]; in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare [1.9%], and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger [9.1%], who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%–4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested [Bosch et al. 2001] that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky [95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky] that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 [fig. 2C] support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. [2001] in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula: in our data set, 8 of 15 E-M78 chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe [see above]. Second, and more importantly, the degree of the African contribution is highly variable across different Iberian populations: the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin [E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81] was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos [table 1]. A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos [18%] and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians [17%] has also recently been reported [Maca-Meyer et al. 2003]. Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.
Although the frequency distribution of E-M34 could suggest that eastern Africa was the place in which the haplogroup arose, two observations point to a Near Eastern origin: [1] Within eastern Africa, the haplogroup appears to be restricted to Ethiopia, since it has not been observed in either neighboring Somalia or Kenya [present study] or Sudan [Underhill et al. 2000]. By contrast, E-M34 chromosomes have been found in a large majority of the populations from the Near East so far analyzed [Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study]. [2] E-M34 chromosomes from Ethiopia show lower variances than those from the Near East and appear closely related in the E-M34 network [fig. 2D]. If our interpretation is correct, E-M34 chromosomes could have been introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East.
In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78δ chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa [E-M78γ and E-V6] and from northern Africa into Europe [E-M81 and E-M78β], as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe [E-M78α]. This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Just as in Hamiticism emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns) as separate and unrelated to the rest of Africa(ns) also in the background macroHg E is proposed as a back migration
Don't know what the balance is among researchers, ie, the amount of people who secretly subscribe to this view and who don't. I would like to say they are only a small minority, but some details may point to the opposite. Some researchers are literally two faced snakes, in that they say one thing in their papers, but come out saying the opposite in their private conversations with you. Charlie Bass already posted his email correspondences with Kanya Godde, who apparently thinks, in private, that Nubians are unrelated to Sub-Saharan Africans and derive from separate Homo Erectus archaics. When you contrast these private held views with what she publishes and whom she quotes in the introduction sections of her papers, to sum up past research on the matter (Keita among others), you get a totally different picture.
I'm also right now talking to someone in private about an Egyptologist who has written several books, which seemingly cite data that support Egypto-Nubian relationships, but in this Egyptologists' private conversation with the person I'm talking to, the floodgates of Eurocentrism open up every time this Egyptologist writes back. You're right on the money that some of these people are not who they're publicly making themselves out to be.
Before I conclude this post, look at this:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages. Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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And also U6 and M1 are no longer Eurasian, but African due to mutation. Their now African clades...
No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/12/234
I'm not saying U6 and M1 were African, but mutated to African.
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posted
Haplogroup F is the parent haplogroup for all of the Y-DNA haplogroups from G through R. More than 90% of the world's human population descends from this group. Because these haplogroups are found almost entirely outside of sub-Saharan Africa, it is presumed that either the population migrating out of Africa was Haplogroup F or Haplogroup F appeared soon after the emigration from Africa, about sixty to eightly thousand years ago. Some argue the emigration was as late as 45,000 years ago.
Today, Haplogroup F is uncommon compared to its "offspring." It is not well studied as most of the attention has been paid to their descendant haplogroups.
Haplogroup F is most frequent on the Indian subcontinent and is rare in Europe, so rare that a Y-DNA Haplogroup F Project has only just been formed (as of November, 2007). Your project admin recommends this individual join this project, in addition to Danish Demes.
In human genetics, Haplogroup F* (M89) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup (Note: due to technical restrictions, the title of this page does not contain an "*").
This haplogroup first appeared in Africa some 45,000 years before present. It is believed to represent the "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa.
Haplogroup F* is an ancestral haplogroup to Y-chromosome haplogroups G (M201), H (M52), I (M170), J (12f2.1), and K (M9) along with its descendant haplogroups (L, M, N, O, P, Q, and R).
Possible place of origin South Asia or North Africa
Haplogroup M1 Much of discussion concerning the origins of haplogroup M has been related to its subclade haplogroup M1, which is the only variant of macrohaplogroup M found in Africa.
Much of discussion concerning the origins of haplogroup M has been related to its subclade haplogroup M1, which is the only variant of macrohaplogroup M found in Africa. Two possibilities were being considered as potential explanations for the presence of M1 in Africa:
# M was present in the ancient population which later gave rise to both M1 in Africa, and M more generally found in Eurasia.
# The presence of M1 in Africa is the result of a back-migration from Asia which occurred sometime after the Out of Africa migration.
Asian origin theory According to this theory, anatomically modern humans carrying ancestral haplogroup L3 lineages were involved in the Out of Africa migration from East Africa into Asia. Somewhere in Asia, the ancestral L3 lineages gave rise to haplogroups M and N. The ancestral L3 lineages were then lost by genetic drift as they are infrequent outside Africa. The hypothesis of Asia as the place of origin of macrohaplogroup M is supported by the following:
# The highest frequencies worldwide of macrohaplogroup M are observed in Asia, specifically in India, Bangladesh, and Japan, where frequencies range from 60%-80%. The total frequency of M subclades is even higher in some populations of Siberia or the Americas, but these small populations tend to exhibit strong genetic drift effects, and often their geographical neighbors exhibit very different frequencies.
# With the exception of the African specific M1, India has several M lineages that emerged directly from the root of haplogroup M.
# Only two subclades of haplogroup M, M1 and M23, are found in Africa, whereas numerous subclades are found outside Africa (with some discussion possible only about sub-clade M1, concerning which see below).
1. Specifically concerning M1 # Haplogroup M1 has a restricted geographic distribution in Africa, being found mainly in North Africans and East Africa at low or moderate frequencies. If M had originated in Africa around before the Out of Africa migration, it would be expected to have a more widespread distribution
# According to Gonzalez et al. 2007, M1 appears to have expanded relatively recently. In this study M1 had a younger coalescence age than the Asian-exclusive M lineages.
# The geographic distribution of M1 in Africa is predominantly North African/supra-equatorial and is largely confined to Afro-Asiatic speakers,[16] which is inconsistent with the Sub-Saharan distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths.
# One of the basal lineages of M1 lineages has been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East but is abssent in East Africa.
# M1 is not restricted to Africa. It is relatively common in the Mediterranean, peaking in Iberia. M1 also enjoys a well-established presence in the Middle East, from the South of the Arabian Peninsula to Anatolia and from the Levant to Iran. In addition, M1 haplotypes have occasionally been observed in the Caucasus and the Trans Caucasus, and without any accompanying L lineages. M1 has also been detected in Central Asia, seemingly reaching as far as Tibet.
# The fact that the M1 sub-clade of macrohaplogroup M has a coalescence age which overlaps with that of haplogroup U6 (a Eurasian haplogroup whose presence in Africa is due to a back-migration from West Asia) and the distribution of U6 in Africa is also restricted to the same North African and Horn African populations as M1 supports the scenario that M1 and U6 were part of the same population expansion from Asia to Africa.
# The timing of the proposed migration of M1 and U6-carrying peoples from West Asia to Africa (between 40,000 to 45,000 ybp) is also supported by the fact that it coincides with changes in climatic conditions that reduced the desert areas of North Africa, thereby rendering the region more accessible to entry from the Levant. This climatic change also temporally overlaps with the peopling of Europe by populations bearing haplogroup U5, the European sister clade of haplogroup U6.
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African origin hypothesis According to this theory, haplogroups M and N arose from L3 in an East African population that had been isolated from other African populations. Members of this population were involved in the out Africa migration and only carried M and N lineages. With the possible exception of haplogroup M1, all other M and N clades in Africa were lost by genetic drift.
The African origin of Haplogroup M is supported by the following arguments and evidence.
# L3, the parent clade of haplogroup M, is found throughout Africa, but is rare outside Africa. According to Toomas Kivisild (2003), "the lack of L3 lineages other than M and N in India and among non-African mitochondria in general suggests that the earliest migration(s) of modern humans already carried these two mtDNA ancestors, via a departure route over the Horn of Africa."
# Ancestral L3 lineages that gave rise to M and N have not been discovered outside Africa.
# Specifically concerning at least M1:
* Haplogroup M1 is largely restricted to Africa where the highest frequencies of M1 can be found in Northeast Africa, particularly in Ethiopia. M1 is found in Europe and the Near East but at considerably lower frequencies than in Africa. ____________ Dispersal
A number of studies have proposed that the ancestors of modern haplogroup M dispersed from Africa through the southern route across the Horn of Africa along the coastal regions of Asia onwards to New Guinea and Australia. These studies suggested that the migrations of haplogroups M and N occurred separately with haplogroup N heading northwards from East Africa to the Levant. However, the results of numerous recent studies indicate that there was only one migration out of Africa and that haplogroups M and N were part of the same migration. This is based on the analysis of a number of relict populations along the proposed beachcombing route from Africa to Australia, all of which possessed both haplogroups N and M.
A 2008 study by Abu-Amero et al., suggests that the Arabian Peninsula may have been the main route out of Africa. However as the region lacks of autochthonous clades of haplogroups M and N the authors suggest that the area has been a more recent receptor of human migrations than an ancient demographic expansion center along the southern coastal route as proposed under the single migration Out-of-Africa scenario of the African origin hypothesis.
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posted
^Sources are welcomed. Otherwise it's seen as plagiarizing.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
where is the mention of E ?
They are talking a lot about the Fulbe in Cameroon
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214. Published online 2002 March 21. PMCID: PMC447595 A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
Yes, this Cruciani study is referring to the back migration in Africa of F descendant haplogroup like R1b. Which of course is true. Any F descendent haplogroups in Africa are the product of a back migration. No link with Hamiticism. Obviously this is a good thing, we don't want humans or Africans to be genetically isolated from one another too much. A diversity of DNA is a good thing for the survival of any population.
For egyptologist, there's indeed many people still refuting the black African origin of Ancient Egyptians. That's why we're happy about the study results posted by Beyoku. Study like the one posted by Beyoku when it will be published, the results of Ramses III analysis and future aDNA analysis of Kemites remains, as well as archeological works like the one done near Nabta Playa in the sahara desert will change things slowly but surely. There's no way around it.
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posted
^Or it's simply within the lineage within Africa. Which is a more logical proposal. Or are you suggesting they all of a sudden stopped mutating?
If you suggest any other theory. I am waiting for you to explain all the back migrations....for example: how did they all manage to navigate back, and what was the purpose for them to all navigate back?
Where is all of the fossil records to back this up?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
where is the mention of E ?
They are talking a lot about the Fulbe in Cameroon
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214. Published online 2002 March 21. PMCID: PMC447595 A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
Yes, this Cruciani study is referring to the back migration in Africa of F descendant haplogroup like R1b. Which of course is true. Any F descendent haplogroups in Africa are the product of a back migration. No link with Hamiticism. Obviously this is a good thing, we don't want humans or Africans to be genetically isolated from one another too much. A diversity of DNA is a good thing for the survival of any population.
For egyptologist, there's indeed many people still refuting the black African origin of Ancient Egyptians. That's why we're happy about the study results posted by Beyoku. Study like the one posted by Beyoku when it will be published, the results of Ramses III analysis and future aDNA analysis of Kemites remains, as well as archeological works like the one done near Nabta Playa in the sahara desert will change things slowly but surely. There's no way around it.
What was the cost of one sample set early 2000?
x * 608=
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^Or it's simply within the lineage within Africa. Which is a more logical proposal. Or are you suggesting they all of a sudden stopped mutating?
If you suggest any other theory. I am waiting for you to explain all the back migrations....for example: how did they all manage to navigate back, and what was the purpose for them to all navigate back?
Where is all of the fossil records to back this up?
Are you questioning me? I'm not sure I understand your question. If F haplogroups originate in lets say around India. That is at one time one individual was the first one to have the F mutation and that male was living in India. Then this individual had (eventually, after a few generations) many male descendants who somehow spread their F mutation (by having male child of course) across the world. As far as in Africa (Cameroon). Eventually developing new F descendant mutation along the way (like R, J, etc). That is the way between lets say India and Cameroon. Obviously maybe the first R-V88 descendant to step a foot beyond the Sahara desert, for example, was already 90% African in every sense of the word as stated a few post above (the one with the picture of an African child). We don't know the full genome.
**If*** you accept that the F haplogroup originate outside Africa, then any F descendant haplogroup is the product of a back migration. There's no way around it. I don't even need to explain why, how, for what reason, etc. It's basic logic.
The only thing you could say is that: no, the F haplogroup, the first male person who had the F mutation, didn't originate outside Africa, but it indeed originated in Africa(maybe in Cameroon or around it or elsewhere in Africa). Of course, its absurd considering the distribution (frequency, diversity) of F haplogroup around the world. No geneticist hold that absurd position.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^Or it's simply within the lineage within Africa. Which is a more logical proposal. Or are you suggesting they all of a sudden stopped mutating?
If you suggest any other theory. I am waiting for you to explain all the back migrations....for example: how did they all manage to navigate back, and what was the purpose for them to all navigate back?
Where is all of the fossil records to back this up?
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
[QUOTE] OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
"back migration" doesn't mean R1b started in Cameroon and then later came back to Cameroon.
It means in a more general sense that all people come from Africa and the ones who had been living Out of Africa (Near East/Mesopotamia) came back into Africa and went to Cameroon for the first time - this before dynastic Egypt and that's how the R1b got there, prior to historical periods
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^Or it's simply within the lineage within Africa. Which is a more logical proposal. Or are you suggesting they all of a sudden stopped mutating?
If you suggest any other theory. I am waiting for you to explain all the back migrations....for example: how did they all manage to navigate back, and what was the purpose for them to all navigate back?
Where is all of the fossil records to back this up?
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
[QUOTE] OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
"back migration" doesn't mean R1b started in Cameroon and then later came back to Cameroon.
It means in a more general sense that all people come from Africa and the ones who had been living Out of Africa (Near East/Mesopotamia) came back into Africa and went to Cameroon for the first time - this before dynastic Egypt and that's how the R1b got there, prior to historical periods
Of course, that's what 'back migration' means. People who left Africa, then developed new mutation(s) like F (actually called M89), outside Africa (around India it seems in this case), then came back to Africa. Something that took of course many millennium. Nice graph. A picture worth a thousands words I guess.
For example, as you stated above, Cruciani is talking about the back migration of F descendant haplogroups (R, etc) in his study called: A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes.
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posted
^^^I was tempted to post a similar graph too. More like this one (because F is believed to have originated near India as far as I know, not really something that I follow):upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Haplogroup_F_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG
Now lets get back to the fun and relevant part of this thread:
Black Africans interested in African history rejoice. Part of our heritage is being restored!!! Yippi!!! Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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[QUOTE] OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
For example, as you stated above, Cruciani is talking about the back migration of F descendant haplogroups (R, etc) in his study called: A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes. [/QB]
yes but notice several posts back in a separte paper also by Cruciani he discuses E3b (M35)
Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b [E-M215] Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa2004
Fulvio Cruciani et al
links and excerpts a several posts back
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes but notice several posts back in a separte paper also by Cruciani he discuses E3b (M35)
Ok, and what does he say about E3b that are relevant to this thread? I don't see by looking at your post what Tukuler would find interesting in that study. All the contrary, it says: Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001] Which is of course true.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: yes but notice several posts back in a separte paper also by Cruciani he discuses E3b (M35)
Ok, and what does he say about E3b that are relevant to this thread? I don't see by looking at your post what Tukuler would find interesting in that study. All the contrary, it says: Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001] Which is of course true.
read the whole think at the link if you feel like it. I was assuming it is what Tukuler was talking about. Maybe I didn't excerpt the relevant parts, didn't look at it super closely yet, wait until Tukuler shows up maybe he will have more to say about it
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^Or it's simply within the lineage within Africa. Which is a more logical proposal. Or are you suggesting they all of a sudden stopped mutating?
If you suggest any other theory. I am waiting for you to explain all the back migrations....for example: how did they all manage to navigate back, and what was the purpose for them to all navigate back?
Where is all of the fossil records to back this up?
Are you questioning me? I'm not sure I understand your question. If F haplogroups originate in lets say around India. That is at one time one individual was the first one to have the F mutation and that male was living in India. Then this individual had (eventually, after a few generations) many male descendants who somehow spread their F mutation (by having male child of course) across the world. As far as in Africa (Cameroon). Eventually developing new F descendant mutation along the way (like R, J, etc). That is the way between lets say India and Cameroon. Obviously maybe the first R-V88 descendant to step a foot beyond the Sahara desert, for example, was already 90% African in every sense of the word as stated a few post above (the one with the picture of an African child). We don't know the full genome.
**If*** you accept that the F haplogroup originate outside Africa, then any F descendant haplogroup is the product of a back migration. There's no way around it. I don't even need to explain why, how, for what reason, etc. It's basic logic.
The only thing you could say is that: no, the F haplogroup, the first male person who had the F mutation, didn't originate outside Africa, but it indeed originated in Africa(maybe in Cameroon or around it or elsewhere in Africa). Of course, its absurd considering the distribution (frequency, diversity) of F haplogroup around the world. No geneticist hold that absurd position.
I think my questions are fairly simple.
-How did all of these people with different Hg migrate/ navigate back and why?
-Where are the fossil records of this hypotheses?
-And, what was the cost of one sample early 2000?
x* 608=
What is so hard about not understanding these questions?
Btw, I don't accept what "you consider as a fact".
Simply because I have cited multiple sources stating different. From your claim. I am sure, you've seen them.
Y-DNA haplogroup F is the parent of all Y-DNA haplogroups G through T and contains more than 90% of the world’s population. Haplogroup F was in the original migration out of Africa, or else it was founded soon afterward, because F and its sub-haplogroups are primarily found outside, with very few inside, sub-Saharan Africa. The founder of F could have lived between 60,000 and 80,000 years ago, depending on the time of the out-of-Africa migration.
The major sub-groups of Haplogroup F are Haplogroups G, H, [IJ], and K, which are discussed elsewhere at this site. The minor sub-groups, F*, F1, and F2 have not been well studied, but apparently occur only infrequently and primarily in the Indian subcontinent. F* has been observed in two individuals in Portugal, possibly representing a remnant of 15th and 16th century contact of Portugal with India.
"I is a branch of haplogroup F* (M89 mutation), which first appeared in Africa some 45,000 years before the present. F* is believed to represent the "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa between 45 and 40 thousand years ago, that went directly to the Middle East"
OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I warned those fools years ago that the DNA on the ancient Egyptians will come out
For some reason, the Euronuts didn't get the memo that it was an ominous sign (for their case) that the Egyptian authorities were committed to having these tests come out a certain way (showing ancient to modern genetic continuity), while they, at the same time, were unable to come out with results supporting their desired outcome. Not only were they unable to come up with DNA results that document this, they were chronically holding back hundreds of successfully sequenced aDNA results. Hawass and other proponents of the establishment have had ample opportunity and incentive to shut those darn Afrocentrists up, with all the genetic data they've been secretly holding on to. If I were an Euronut, this indecisiveness on the part of the Egyptian authorities would mean something to me.
Do you remember when Hawass and the SCA did their first DNA testing on royal mummies back in the late 90s?? They withheld the results and claimed the reason why was that they were afraid the results could be misconstrued that the pharaohs were Jews?!! LOL It makes me seriously question if this 'Jewish' lineage they spoke of wasn't J2 but E1b1b!
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: The Modern Egyptian authorities can only play games for so long. The fact is while they withheld info on the Africaness of Egyptian Genetics, they were getting their asses handed to them on the Anthropology and Archeology side.
The poor Euroclown establishment only has Genetics to base their claims, I mean look at Cachibatches on Historum, he avoids Anthropology and physical remains like the plague and harps on distorted and debunked Genetic studies.
The funny thing is that human genetics or molecular anthropology is about as clear as physical anthropology of skeletal remains but just as malleable that is the results can be just as easy to distort in one's favor. For example, recall how the crania of North and even East Africans for many decades were classified as "Caucasoid" due to certain features. The same game is being played by Eurocentrists today except with haplogroups.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Thing is most of the geneticists reports support Hamiticism though they'd never admit it.
Precisely what I'm saying. Because the Eurocentrics can no longer use skeletal or even cranial remains to support their claims, they've moved on to genetics which is a relatively recent science and therefore 'ripe for the picking'. Fortunately like skeletal assessment and other sciences before it, the more time passes and the more advances made such as in SNP resolution and refinement especially with the discovery of unknown haplotypes that too will be a lost cause. Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: If you consider E descendant haplogroups to be African and F descendant to be foreign (Y-DNA). It's always surprising to find foreign DNA in any ancient populations. Like the black African presence is real but at the same time surprising and trivial in the Ancient Greece or Roman civilizations.
It's like the R-V88 found in high concentration in Cameroon or the high level of E haplogroup in the Balkans in Europe. It doesn't prevent those Balkans to look Europeans and those Cameroonian people to look (and 'be' of course) African in the full sense of the word.
In other words, someone can be 99% African and still carry a foreign haplogroup, like a F-descendant haplogroup. Y-DNA and MtDNA haplogroups form only a small part of your whole genome. Only the direct male and female line respectively.
This child for example can be a R-V88 carrier:
It's takes about 5 generations for some foreign Y-DNA to be over 90% localized if the foreign male and his descendents only intermarry with local females (and not within his foreign haplogroup).
For example, a F-descendant haplogroup can marry a local woman
1) F descendant male (R-V88 hg carrier) 100% foreign 2) Children with a local female = 50% foreign for the full genome (since about 50% comes from the local female) 3) their children = 25% 4) their children= 12.50% 5) and their children=6.25%
After 10 generations it must be much below 1% or in fact even much below 0.5%
(it's an approximation because it's not clear which genes will be transmitted from one generation to the next beside for Y-DNA of course which are only carried and transmitted from male to male)
Those children which only have 6.25% of foreign DNA after 5 generations (or less than 0.5% after 10 generations) still carry a F descendant haplogroup like R-V88. So in takes about 5 generations to be 93.75% local (when people only intermarry with locals and not within their haplogroups). In reality, it takes more generations since there's some level of intra-haplogroup interbreeding even if the majority of people around you are locals.
(obviously of those 6.25% DNA only a 0.1% are actually polymorphic in humans, but that's another subject)
If I made an error in my calculation or otherwise please tell me of course.
This is assuming that all F-descended lineages are Eurasian in the first place. Recall that F is a cousin of E with E deriving from DE and F deriving from CF and both CF and DE deriving from CT. It's likely F itself originated in Africa as their a significant frequency of underived F* in the Sudan. Also, most genes especially those of the autosomes and genes of the X chromosome in females are recombinant so it depends on what alleles and on what loci on is looking for.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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^^^ I guess I can't force people to avoid enunciating fringe theory born on the ES forum. IMO, it does a disservice to African history. For example, there's no need to try to "steal" haplogroups origin from other people. The Beyoku post being a case in point. Ancient Egyptians being mostly African derived haplogroups like A, B and E. Ramses III being E1b1a as well as the DNA Tribes results are other cases in point. Ancient Egyptians were fully black Africans (aka like modern so-called sub-saharan Africans). No need for fringe theory for this.
While everybody can enunciate fringe theory, as I said above, it's anybody's right, I think it does a disservice to African history. It makes the whole black African origin of Ancient Egyptian look extremely fringe when in reality it is (now) completely confirmed by modern genetic analysis of aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains.
This is one of the most "mainstream" geneticists way to view the haplogroups origin situation:
We don't even need to state fringe theory about haplogroups origin. Ancient Egyptians were mostly from the A, B, E descendant haplogroups which are usually considered African in origin (aka not the product of a back migration from Eurasia).
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OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
Because F is important in the downstream of the following mutations which took place. In this route it's reasonable that some of the markers have developed indigenously.
That's why.
And the questions addressed are reasonable.
It's funny "so well informed people" always run away from these questions. And the sample set of one person during those days is not what is is today. Things have changed drastically.
FIGURE 3 | The phylogenetic tree of binary Y-chromosomal haplogroups.
FROM THE FOLLOWING ARTICLE:
The human Y chromosome: an evolutionary marker comes of age
Mark A. Jobling & Chris Tyler-Smith Nature Reviews Genetics 4, 598-612 (August 2003)
The phylogeny is based on that of the Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC)3, with minor modifications72, 112, 115, 119. Clades and clade names are coloured to match the pie charts in Fig. 2. The Y clade contains all of the the haplogroups A–R. Paragroups, which are lineages that are not defined by the presence of a derived marker, are indicated by an asterisk (for example, P*). The nomenclature system allows the union of two haplogroups, such as D and E, to be indicated by juxtaposed letters (DE). A designation such as R(xR1a) indicates the partial typing of markers in a haplogroup, in this case describing all chromosomes in clade R except those in R1a. Details of the markers, together with further information about nomenclature rules, can be found at the YCC web site (see online links box). Note that this phylogeny and nomenclature should be regarded as the YCC2003 Tree, and may be used as a reference.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Anyway back to the main topic,i hope more news come out soon.
We certainly could talk about that one.
If so we need the sum up the alleles. And their functions. That will explain the a few things. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^ I guess I can't force people to avoid enunciating fringe theory born on the ES forum. IMO, it does a disservice to African history. For example, there's no need to try to "steal" haplogroups origin from other people. The Beyoku post being a case in point. Ancient Egyptians being mostly African derived haplogroups like A, B and E. Ramses III being E1b1a as well as the DNA Tribes results are other cases in point. Ancient Egyptians were fully black Africans (aka like modern so-called sub-saharan Africans). No need for fringe theory for this.
While everybody can enunciate fringe theory, as I said above, it's anybody's right, I think it does a disservice to African history. It makes the whole black African origin of Ancient Egyptian look extremely fringe when in reality it is (now) completely confirmed by modern genetic analysis of aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains.
This is one of the most "mainstream" geneticists way to view the haplogroups origin situation:
We don't even need to state fringe theory about haplogroups origin. Ancient Egyptians were mostly from the A, B, E descendant haplogroups which are usually considered African in origin (aka not the product of a back migration from Eurasia).
Humm, it was you who mentioned Hg F first, or am I mistaking? And the fringe theory seems plausible. Since:
quote:Haplogroup F was in the original migration out of Africa
Haplogroup F is the parent haplogroup for all of the Y-DNA haplogroups from G through R. More than 90% of the world's human population descends from this group. Because these haplogroups are found almost entirely outside of sub-Saharan Africa, it is presumed that either the population migrating out of Africa was Haplogroup F or Haplogroup F appeared soon after the emigration from Africa, about sixty to eightly thousand years ago. Some argue the emigration was as late as 45,000 years ago.
Today, Haplogroup F is uncommon compared to its "offspring." It is not well studied as most of the attention has been paid to their descendant haplogroups.
Haplogroup F is most frequent on the Indian subcontinent and is rare in Europe, so rare that a Y-DNA Haplogroup F Project has only just been formed (as of November, 2007). Your project admin recommends this individual join this project, in addition to Danish Demes.
In human genetics, Haplogroup F* (M89) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup (Note: due to technical restrictions, the title of this page does not contain an "*").
This haplogroup first appeared in Africa some 45,000 years before present. It is believed to represent the "second-wave" of expansion out of Africa.
Haplogroup F* is an ancestral haplogroup to Y-chromosome haplogroups G (M201), H (M52), I (M170), J (12f2.1), and K (M9) along with its descendant haplogroups (L, M, N, O, P, Q, and R).
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: If you consider E descendant haplogroups to be African and F descendant to be foreign (Y-DNA). It's always surprising to find foreign DNA in any ancient populations. Like the black African presence is real but at the same time surprising and trivial in the Ancient Greece or Roman civilizations.
It's like the R-V88 found in high concentration in Cameroon or the high level of E haplogroup in the Balkans in Europe. It doesn't prevent those Balkans to look Europeans and those Cameroonian people to look (and 'be' of course) African in the full sense of the word.
In other words, someone can be 99% African and still carry a foreign haplogroup, like a F-descendant haplogroup. Y-DNA and MtDNA haplogroups form only a small part of your whole genome. Only the direct male and female line respectively.
This child for example can be a R-V88 carrier:
It's takes about 5 generations for some foreign Y-DNA to be over 90% localized if the foreign male and his descendents only intermarry with local females (and not within his foreign haplogroup).
For example, a F-descendant haplogroup can marry a local woman
1) F descendant male (R-V88 hg carrier) 100% foreign 2) Children with a local female = 50% foreign for the full genome (since about 50% comes from the local female) 3) their children = 25% 4) their children= 12.50% 5) and their children=6.25%
After 10 generations it must be much below 1% or in fact even much below 0.5%
(it's an approximation because it's not clear which genes will be transmitted from one generation to the next beside for Y-DNA of course which are only carried and transmitted from male to male)
Those children which only have 6.25% of foreign DNA after 5 generations (or less than 0.5% after 10 generations) still carry a F descendant haplogroup like R-V88. So in takes about 5 generations to be 93.75% local (when people only intermarry with locals and not within their haplogroups). In reality, it takes more generations since there's some level of intra-haplogroup interbreeding even if the majority of people around you are locals.
(obviously of those 6.25% DNA only a 0.1% are actually polymorphic in humans, but that's another subject)
If I made an error in my calculation or otherwise please tell me of course.
This is assuming that all F-descended lineages are Eurasian in the first place. Recall that F is a cousin of E with E deriving from DE and F deriving from CF and both CF and DE deriving from CT. It's likely F itself originated in Africa as their a significant frequency of underived F* in the Sudan. Also, most genes especially those of the autosomes and genes of the X chromosome in females are recombinant so it depends on what alleles and on what loci on is looking for.
Yes, that what I am saying. Has proper research being to such? No it hasn't.
It was once assumed the entire Hg E was borne outside of Africa. "Somewhere in the Middle East". F is complicated and important, because it will remove a lot of the suspicious/ suggestive hypotheses.
And ever since Cruciani started out he fetched on the theory of "back migrations" everything to him is/ was basically due back migrations. Nothing was born from the African continent originally.
Suggested is that after F in Africa they stopped mutating into the following downstream mutations. And continued in "Eurasia". However no explanation is given to such a theory.
--The Lancet, Volume 379, Issue 9819, Pages 915-922
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Co-introgression of Y-chromosome haplogroups and the sickle cell gene across Africa's Sahel
Rihab E Bereir et al.
Map of Africa showing the hypothetical movement of Y-chromosome haplogroups across the Sahel. The yellow color of the arrow is for the haplogroups in non-sicklers and the white arrow is for sicklers. The various colors represent approximate estimations of the frequency of the S gene in the continent with red representing the highest frequency followed by the dark and light blue for lower frequencies.
posted
therefore there is no such thing as a non-African haplogroup
therefore there was never a migration of Paleolithic people from outside of Africa back into Africa
therfore mutations can't occur outside Africa
^^^ seems to be the implication being used
Haplogroup F may have originated in North Africa or the Mid East 45-48kya
But If people are going to talk about hap F -M89 in regard to Africa they should at least site a frequency level in a namable modern African population.
Where are the examples? No examples , no case
Not saying it doesn't exist at all in Africa but it's near non existant in Africa. It's not even listed on the Y DNA chart I posted for Africa. And its not relevant to the original post on these OK and MK Egyptians, not listed.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Without explanations this seems like one of the worst thread on this site to post this. This thread is about Ancient DNA of Kemetian mummies and this is about the relatively recent development of sickle cell genes (at least according to this study, the one you posted).
Just consider this quote from the text:
quote: Our results suggest that the sickle cell gene may have been preferentially introduced through males of migrating west African tribes (Figure 1), particularly Hausa-Fulani, and Bagara in the large migrations that began in the eighteenth century and escalated during the nineteenth and early twentieth century . The estimates of a recent figure of 1–3 generations for the introduction of the gene and associated haplotypes to eastern Sahel, is consistent with demography during the past 100 years and with a hypothesis of a recent origin of malaria as a major human infection
On another study they say :
quote: The data presented here provide strong evidence that the Hb S gene was generated in Africa by at least three separate mutational events involving three or more different chromosomes [Edit:Senegal, Benin and Bantu I would say]. In addition, the data suggest that the Hb S gene migrated from West Africa to North Africa through the well documented trans-Saharan caravan routes (12). Also, the data are entirely compatible with the Bantu expansion having originated in an area close to the frontier of present day Nigeria and Cameroon. From Evidence for the multicentric origin of the sickle cell hemoglobin gene in Africa
Here's a map of sickle cell gene distribution in the world:
Maybe if you say why you post this, in relation to this thread, instead of just dumping it with no explanations. It would make it more interesting. Just a suggestion. I'm no expert on the sickle cell gene, so I'm curious why you posted this on this thread.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: therefore there is no such thing as a non-African haplogroup
therefore there was never a migration of Paleolithic people from outside of Africa back into Africa
therfore mutations can't occur outside Africa
^^^ seems to be the implication being used
Haplogroup F may have originated in North Africa or the Mid East 45-48kya
But If people are going to talk about hap F -M89 in regard to Africa they should at least site a frequency level in a namable modern African population.
Where are the examples? No examples , no case
Not saying it doesn't exist at all in Africa but it's near non existant in Africa. It's not even listed on the Y DNA chart I posted for Africa. And its not relevant to the original post on these OK and MK Egyptians, not listed.
I have cited reasonable sources. You posted from your favorite website. Wikipedia, to put in an argument.
However, it could be that there is a split or a synchronous development of these mutations. Chromosomes and alleles will answer these questions.
quote:The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe
^^^ P25 aka R1b was found in Fulbe as well as U5 on the maternal side
That's, as was mentioned before. Fulani are the most widespread Ethic group. With sub groups stretching from the East to the West coast.
You can look at your favorite informational website, wikipedia, how V88 is distributed in the region.
quote:The Sahel that extends from the Atlantic Ocean to the Ethiopian highland is a historical reservoir of Africa’s cultures and grandest populations and a known arena of ancient and recent migrations.
--Rihab E Bereir et al. Co-introgression of Y-chromosome haplogroups and the sickle cell gene across Africa’s Sahel
Cite the U5 info including the author. Thanks in advance.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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