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Author Topic: Egyptian Old Kingdom and New Kingdom Ancient DNA results
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n11/pdf/5201892a.pdf

Without explanations this seems like one of the worst thread on this site to post this. This thread is about Ancient DNA of Kemetian mummies and this is about the relatively recent development of sickle cell genes (at least according to this study, the one you posted).

Just consider this quote from the text:

quote:
Our results suggest that the sickle cell gene may have been preferentially introduced through males of migrating west African tribes (Figure 1), particularly Hausa-Fulani, and Bagara in the large migrations that began in the eighteenth century and escalated during the nineteenth and early twentieth century . The estimates of a recent figure of 1–3 generations for the introduction of the gene and associated haplotypes to eastern Sahel, is consistent with demography during the past 100 years and with a hypothesis of a recent origin of malaria as a major human infection
On another study they say :

quote:
The data presented here provide strong evidence that the Hb S gene was generated in Africa by at least three separate mutational events involving three or more different chromosomes [Edit:Senegal, Benin and Bantu I would say]. In addition, the data suggest that the Hb S gene migrated from West Africa to North Africa through the well documented trans-Saharan caravan routes (12). Also, the data are entirely compatible with the Bantu expansion having originated in an area close to the frontier of present day Nigeria and Cameroon. From Evidence for the multicentric origin of the sickle cell hemoglobin gene in Africa
Here's a map of sickle cell gene distribution in the world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg

Maybe if you say why you post this, in relation to this thread, instead of just dumping it with no explanations. It would make it more interesting. Just a suggestion. I'm no expert on the sickle cell gene, so I'm curious why you posted this on this thread.

Instead of spending your "precious time" responding to this, you could have answered my questions I've proposed. Because these fragmented issues need to be (re)solved.


quote:
Complementary evidence for parallel origins of sickle cell is discernable in ethnicity, some notable examples being the concurrency of gene population spread attributed to expansions of Iron Age Bantu speakers both south and eastwards in Africa emerging from the area of present-day Cameroon, and subsequently across the Atlantic by events associated with the ‘Middle Passage’.

--Rihab E Bereir et al.


King Tut died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria


quote:
King Tutankhamun died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria, say experts. A team from Hamburg's Bernhard Noct Institute for Tropical Medicine (BNI) claim the disease is a far likelier cause of death than the combination of bone disorders and malaria put forward by Egyptian experts earlier this year.


The BNI team argues that theories offered by Egyptian experts, led by antiquities tsar Zahi Hawass, are based on data that can be interpreted otherwise. They say further analysis of the data will confirm or deny their work. Hawass' claim, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association this February, and followed by a swarm of accompanying television shows, claimed King Tut suffered from Kohler's disease, a bone disorder prohibiting blood flow, before succumbing to malaria.


Multiple bone disorders, including one in Tutankhamun's left foot, led to the Kohler's diagnosis, while segments of a malarial parasite were found via DNA testing. Yet the BNI team claims the latter results are incorrect. “Malaria in combination with Köhler's disease causing Tutankhamun's early death seems unlikely to us,” say Prof Christian Meyer and Dr Christian Timmann.


Instead the BNI team feels sickle-cell disease (SCD), a genetic blood disorder, is a more likely reason for the Pharaoh's death aged just 19. The disease occurs in 9 to 22 per cent of people living in the Egyptian oases, and gives a better chance of surviving malaria; the infestation halted by sickled cells.


They say the disease occurs frequently in malarial regions like the River Nile, and that it would account for the bone defects found on his body.


“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.


The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.


“Sickle-cell disease is an important differential diagnosis: one that existing DNA material can probably confirm or rule out,” conclude Timmann and Meyer. They suggest that further testing of ancient Egyptian royal mummies should bear their conclusions in mind.


King Tut's young demise has long been a source of speculation. As well as malaria, recent decades have seen scholars argue that he was murdered, and that he died from infection caused by a broken leg.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/king-tut-died-from-sicklecell-disease-not-malaria-2010531.html


King Tut died of blood disorder: German researchers Jun 23, 2010



http://phys.org/news196516256.html


This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.

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the lioness,
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familypedia.wikia.com/

Haplogroup IJ (Y-DNA)

It is notable that no example of a Haplogroup IJ* Y-chromosome has been found among any modern human population; the existence of the Haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ* belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia tends to support the hypothesis that Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup F in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East and subsequently spread throughout Western Eurasia.

__________________________________________________

If might infer that Ij is African due to

"The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe" -ISOGG

Again the early origin is uncertain
however the lineage that has been found in modern populations is J1 and J2 and these are mutations that are believed to have occured in Arabia and the the frequencies of J in North Africa are dued to the spread of Islam rather than and archaic IJ

You can do the same with any sub clade, follow the parent to OOA and then use this method to determine any haplogroup therefore is African and also assume therefore it is impossible that any people migrated from outside of Africa into Africa (were they once came from)
You might as well say there is no such thing as an Asian or European person

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
familypedia.wikia.com/

Haplogroup IJ (Y-DNA)

It is notable that no example of a Haplogroup IJ* Y-chromosome has been found among any modern human population; the existence of the Haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ* belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia tends to support the hypothesis that Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup F in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East and subsequently spread throughout Western Eurasia.

__________________________________________________

If might infer that Ij is African due to

"The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe" -ISOGG

Again the early origin is uncertain
however the lineage that has been found in modern populations is J1 and J2 and these are mutations that are believed to have occured in Arabia and the the frequencies of J in North Africa are dued to the spread of Islam rather than and archaic IJ

You can do the same with any sub clade, follow the parent to OOA and then use this method to determine any haplogroup therefore is African
You might as well say there is no such thing as an Asian or European person

Wikipedia (someone's opinion) vs The International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) (2013)


quote:
The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html


 -

--The Lancet, Volume 379, Issue 9819, Pages 915-922

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the lioness,
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It doesn't matter if IJ is African

the presence of J1 and J2 in North Africa is due to the spread of Islam 7-8th century AD

not IJ tens of thousands of years ago

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
It doesn't matter if IJ is African

the presence of J1 and J2 in North Africa is due to the spread of Islam 7-8th century AD

not IJ tens of thousands of years ago

Yes, it does matter. It may have spread in abundance afterwards...as you state. But eventually it follows a logical path within Africa, being distributed. As Djehuti and others mentioned before, including myself.

J1 is not J2 btw. The allele and chromosomes are important, to understand the nuclear clades. When trying to understand aDNA vs TMRCA.


I suggest a parallel divergence of mutations.

 -



So, when are you going to show the distribution of V88 and U5 amongst the Fulbe?

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.

Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.

Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
Your personal "opinion". VS.


“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.


The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/king-tut-died-from-sicklecell-disease-not-malaria-2010531.html


But the German researchers said in a letter published online Wednesday by the Journal of the American Medical Association that closer scrutiny of his foot bones pointed to sickle cell disease, in which red blood cells become dangerously misshaped.

"(The) radiological signs are compatible with osteopathologic lesions seen in sickle cell disease (SCD), a hematological disorder that occurs at gene carrier rates of nine percent to 22 percent in inhabitants of Egyptian oases."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news196516256.html#jCp

 -


 -


 -


 -

 -

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.

Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
Your personal "opinion". VS.


“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.


The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/king-tut-died-from-sicklecell-disease-not-malaria-2010531.html


But the German researchers said in a letter published online Wednesday by the Journal of the American Medical Association that closer scrutiny of his foot bones pointed to sickle cell disease, in which red blood cells become dangerously misshaped.

"(The) radiological signs are compatible with osteopathologic lesions seen in sickle cell disease (SCD), a hematological disorder that occurs at gene carrier rates of nine percent to 22 percent in inhabitants of Egyptian oases."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news196516256.html#jCp

I'll grant you, it's a possibility like any other but I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence. Even the study you posted about sickle cell contradicts you because it shows different geographical (thus ethnic) origin of the sickle cell gene (Benin, Nigeria, Bantu, iirc). It also talk about **recent** development of such traits (something you avoid responding to). So, there's no way to know which "strain" (bad word I know) of sickle cell gene was present in Ancient Egypt, it may also have been an independent one, if there ever was that is, which I don't believe. Even the traits already present in Africa are not from the same origin (they are from 3 different origin Senegal, Benin and Bantu iirc). Can you really base any theory about Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity on this? No.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.

Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
Your personal "opinion". VS.


“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.


The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/king-tut-died-from-sicklecell-disease-not-malaria-2010531.html


But the German researchers said in a letter published online Wednesday by the Journal of the American Medical Association that closer scrutiny of his foot bones pointed to sickle cell disease, in which red blood cells become dangerously misshaped.

"(The) radiological signs are compatible with osteopathologic lesions seen in sickle cell disease (SCD), a hematological disorder that occurs at gene carrier rates of nine percent to 22 percent in inhabitants of Egyptian oases."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news196516256.html#jCp

I'll grant you, it's a possibility like any other but I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence. Even the study you posted about sickle cell contradicts you because it shows different geographical (thus ethnic) origin of the sickle cell gene (Benin, Nigeria, Bantu, iirc). It also talk about **recent** development of such traits (something you avoid responding to). So, there's no way to know which "strain" (bad word I know) of sickle cell gene was present in Ancient Egypt, it may also have been an independent one, if there ever was that is, which I don't believe. Even the traits already present in Africa are not from the same origin (they are from 3 different origin Senegal, Benin and Bantu iirc). Can you really base any theory about Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity on this? No.
I don't see how it is contracting?



quote:
Complementary evidence for parallel origins of sickle cell is discernable in ethnicity, some notable examples being the concurrency of gene population spread attributed to expansions of Iron Age Bantu speakers both south and eastwards in Africa emerging from the area of present-day Cameroon, and subsequently across the Atlantic by events associated with the ‘Middle Passage’.

--Rihab E Bereir et al.

How Old is the Iron Age in Sub-Saharan Africa?

http://wysinger.homestead.com/ironage.html

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/iron/hd_iron.htm

I am off to the movie theater, ...

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
]I don't see how it is contracting?

It's easy to understand. According to the study you posted. The development of sickle cell is

1) Recent
2) Of different geographical and ethnic origin (Senegal, Benin, Bantu) (different mutational events on different chromosome!)

So even if Ancient Egyptians had one version of the sickle disease trait, which I highly doubt. It wouldn't be the same one as the rest of African people. Just another concurrent and independent development of such trait.

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beyoku
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What a clusterfuck of wasting time talking about M89. There have been more discussion about all kinds of bullshit vs the actual data that has been posted. Come on ES. We can do better than that.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
What a clusterfuck of wasting time talking about M89. There have been more discussion about all kinds of bullshit vs the actual data that has been posted. Come on ES. We can do better than that.

You are right of course. If there's anybody who can steer the discussion in a new direction it's you since you have access to the full study I think.

There's nothing much I can add except to say I'm extremely happy about the results. It seems the Ancient Egyptian were composed of a wide variety of mainly African lineages (A, B and E) who settled along the Nile after the desertification of the Sahara. It seems to go in line with previous aDNA studies about Kemetians, that is the DNA Tribes study and the study about Ramses III being E1b1a. A bold step for black African people to reclaim their historical heritage. After the publishing of the report, I hope for more aDNA studies,also for more archeological studies to be done in Egypt, Africa and the Ancient Sahara regions. I also hope than in the next few years mainstream egyptology will catch up with those genetic results and other discoveries made in the Nabta Playa sites, Mali, Niger, etc.

I can't wait to see the full study!

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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Since you're here Beyoku, maybe you can answer this... I think you already told us those samples are not from royal mummies. But are they from commoners, farmers, important "scribes", etc. What type of tombs do they come from? Is there more info about what location/region those remains come from: Upper/lower Ancient Egypt, Waset, Mennefer, elsewhere, etc? Do some of those remains have names and status in Ancient Egypt or even an history of their accomplishments (Ancient Egyptians like to list their accomplishments, status and the diverse positions they held in the society in their tombs)?
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beyoku
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I dont have the full study. I dont know when the full study will be published. It was assumed to be published this year but the work was cut short due to the political situation in the country.

I CAN say they are not Royal.
This could be a snapshot of ONE location or up to 4 locations in the Nile Valley....at this time I cannot say which. This is all the limited data I have.

At this point we dont know if the lineages represent wide spread migration INTO or out of the Nile Valley. I dont wnat to jump the gun. I would assume the E1b1a would be OUT OF. Mainly because the lack of E1a which is a CORE West African Sahelian lineage. I dont know how a CORE lineage like this, from an area that has great pre-historical clout..... could be missing in a migration from the West that included E1b1a. The E2a and the E2 which could be E2b is also up for grabs. These are two very old lineages E2b being widespread. Peaking in Burkina Faso, Cameroon and South Africa. E2a is on the other hand concentrated around the Great Lakes region.


IMO A3b2 is Saharan. And i dont quite know about B2a

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Son of Ra
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Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
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Tukuler
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No

I say what I mean
and
I said what I meant.

You however didn't what to look for.


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Maybe you meant this other Euronut Cruciani paper ?>


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Tukuler
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Yes

this is my personal experience
though I won't give implicit examples
because the correspondences were and remain private confidential person-person

PC won't allow 'em to write
what they really think
and privately discuss among each other

let this one example suffice

I asked if a mistake was made placing Nigeria in NA in one report

the response was due to Fulani
I was told
despite language and location of Fulani in WA
linkage disequilibrium and other data (uncited btw)
indicates Fulani are 40-50% NA

no lie

Fulani madness

Like Hassan's Fulani Madness
in using Fulani in E Afr nrY
to say Fulani are separate
different special than "the Negroes"
all the while he and all the others
avoid the halPulaaren homeland
Futa Toro
never using them in any studies
nowhere in print that I can find.

Hamiticism is alive and well
underground
waiting to boldly resurface
by any name
old or new


quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

Just as in Hamiticism
emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns)
as separate and unrelated to the rest of Africa(ns)
also
in the background
macroHg E is proposed as a back migration

Don't know what the balance is among researchers,
ie, the amount of people who secretly subscribe
to this view and who don't. I would like to say
they are only a small minority, but some details
may point to the opposite. Some researchers are
literally two faced snakes, in that they say one
thing in their papers, but come out saying the
opposite in their private conversations with you.
Charlie Bass already posted his email
correspondences with Kanya Godde, who apparently
thinks, in private, that Nubians are unrelated to
Sub-Saharan Africans and derive from separate
Homo Erectus archaics. When you contrast these
private held views with what she publishes and
whom she quotes in the introduction sections of
her papers, to sum up past research on the matter
(Keita among others), you get a totally different
picture.

I'm also right now talking to someone in private
about an Egyptologist who has written several
books, which seemingly cite data that support
Egypto-Nubian relationships, but in this
Egyptologists' private conversation with the
person I'm talking to, the floodgates of
Eurocentrism open up every time this Egyptologist
writes back. You're right on the money that some
of these people are not who they're
publicly making themselves out to be.

Before I conclude this post, look at this:

quote:
To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of
240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria
cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and
Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on
the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which
are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe
respectively. The Eurasian component in
Algeria reached
80% for mtDNA and 90% for
Y-chromosome.
However, within them, the North
African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1;
20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal
(E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).

--Bekada et al 2013

These people don't even make it a secret that
they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as
Eurasian lineages. [Eek!]


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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:

look at this:

quote:
To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of
240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria
cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and
Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on
the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which
are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe
respectively. The Eurasian component in
Algeria reached
80% for mtDNA and 90% for
Y-chromosome.
However, within them, the North
African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1;
20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal
(E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).

--Bekada et al 2013

These people don't even make it a secret that
they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as
Eurasian lineages. [Eek!]

Yes

the corollary to Hamiticism is Caucasian NE Africa
despite NE Africa is not nor even near the Caucasus

I was exposed to this by what was available in the 70s
particularly YY benJochannan as in the map below

 -

This is what informs academia and remains in the background behind academicians minds

that arrow from the Great Lakes northward to Nile AP NA and Europe
is where
similar arrows in geneticists' reports trace their pedigree

don't like to dwell on this kind of thing
but
from time to time it demands a look see

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

What???

Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.

Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report.
A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes

There are still proponents of that old opinion.

That's all I'm saying.



where is the mention of E ?

They are talking a lot about the Fulbe in Cameroon

R1b - M269
R-M173
K-M9


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447595/

Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214.
Published online 2002 March 21.
PMCID: PMC447595
A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes

Yes, this Cruciani study is referring to the back migration in Africa of F descendant haplogroup like R1b. Which of course is true. Any F descendent haplogroups in Africa are the product of a back migration. No link with Hamiticism. Obviously this is a good thing, we don't want humans or Africans to be genetically isolated from one another too much. A diversity of DNA is a good thing for the survival of any population.

For egyptologist, there's indeed many people still refuting the black African origin of Ancient Egyptians. That's why we're happy about the study results posted by Beyoku. Study like the one posted by Beyoku when it will be published, the results of Ramses III analysis and future aDNA analysis of Kemites remains, as well as archeological works like the one done near Nabta Playa in the sahara desert will change things slowly but surely. There's no way around it.

That was not at all the material I refer to

Since u r just as w/o a clue as the Lioness, I'll give the quote


An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.


Again

Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.

Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report.
A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes

There are still proponents of that old opinion.

That's all I'm saying.


There will always be academic bias against "the Negro"
subtle and overt

The more things change the more they remain the same
that's why

aluta continua


While I'm at it
R in Cameroon is not Fulbe but Ouldeme et al ttbomk

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Amun Ra says:
The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence.


Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely
on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA
is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced
against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated
or distorted just like any other. How often has
sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies.
As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the
Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:

--Limb proportion
--Cranial
--Dental
--Cultural/historical
--Archaealogical
--DNA


Together or separately they confirm that as one scholar says:

"must be placed in the context of
hypotheses informed by archaeological,
linguistic, geographic and other data. In
such contexts, the physical
anthropological evidence indicates that
early Nile Valley populations can be
identified as part of an African lineage,
but exhibiting local variation. This
variation represents the short and long
term effects of evolutionary forces, such
as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural
selection, influenced by culture and
geography."

--Nancy C. Lovell, "Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in
Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of
Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and
Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and
New York: Routledge, 1999). pp
328-332) [/i]

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Tukuler
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OK sorry for calling you clueless

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

yes but notice several posts back in a separte paper also by Cruciani he discuses E3b (M35)

Ok, and what does he say about E3b that are relevant to this thread? I don't see by looking at your post what Tukuler would find interesting in that study. All the contrary, it says: Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001] Which is of course true.
read the whole think at the link if you feel like it. I was assuming it is what Tukuler was talking about. Maybe I didn't excerpt the relevant parts, didn't look at it super closely yet, wait until Tukuler shows up maybe he will have more to say about it

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?

I don't think Ancient Egypt is a "pan African" civilization the sense that some build it up to
be- as if it was some sort of "central headquarters"
for civilization in Africa. Africa doesn't need any
"central headquarters". The genesis, the source is
on the bio-historical ground level- the Sahara and
other regions. These are "the groundings"...

RECAP FROM OLD THREAD


Conservative mainstream Oxford
Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt slams
diffusionism of 'Afrocentrists' - shows
ancient Egypt derived from an African
cultural sub-stratum


[QUOTE:]

"The evidence also points to linkages to
other northeast African peoples, not
coincidentally approximating the modern
range of languages closely related to
Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group
(formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These
linguistic similarities place ancient
Egyptian in a close relationship with
languages spoken today as far west as
Chad, and as far south as Somalia.
Archaeological evidence also strongly
supports an African origin. A widespread
northeastern African cultural assemblage,
including distinctive multiple barbed
harpoons and pottery decorated with
dotted wavy line patterns, appears during
the early Neolithic (also known as the
Aqualithic, a reference to the mild
climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this
time resembles early Egyptian
iconography. Strong connections
between Nubian (Sudanese) and
Egyptian material culture continue in
later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper
Egypt. Similarities include black-topped
wares, vessels with characteristic
ripple-burnished surfaces, a special
tulip-shaped vessel with incised and
white-filled decoration, palettes, and
harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show
strong similarities to modern African
cultures including divine kingship, the
use of headrests, body art, circumcision,
and male coming-of-age rituals, all
suggesting an African substratum or
foundation for Egyptian civilization
(rather than diffusion from sub-Saharan
Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric
scholars.)"


Source: Donald Redford (2001) The
Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,
Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p.
28


Some have argued that that
African-Americans Should not “interfere”
with Nile Valley history, and have “no
connection” to said history, and
self-styled “concerned” Egyptians, both
bogus and real sometimes put in an
apparent appearance to lecture said
‘African Americans.” or “Black
Americans.” But if the conservative
mainstream reference itself shows that
numerous ancient Egyptian cultural links
and similarities to other parts of “Black
Africa”, including MODERN African
cultures, how come African Americans
are supposed to sit quietly and say
nothing?

“African Americans" are not obsessively
tracing their history back to Egypt as
alleged by assorted blowhards and pundits.
They don't need to any such tracing, nor do
they need "permission" from self-styled
Arab nativists, alleged "Egyptian"
natives/nativists, Egypto-Arabs,
or white people to study
and comment on Egypt.

The Sahara was once a lush greenbelt
extending across one-third of Africa,
allowing the easy movement of peoples.
Its climatic cycles - the famous Saharan
"pump" - was to create conditions for the
movement of peoples into the Nile
Valley, the Sahelian zone and elsewhere.
But it remains the foundation.

Informed African-Americans thus do not
conceive of Egypt as being created out of
thin air. Nor do they rely on the truism
that "Egypt is in Africa."
They begin at the Saharan zone, which
provided the main source for the
peopling of the Nile Valley, and laid the
foundation, and was the genesis of the
Nile Valley Civilization, and also was the
genesis of the West African kingdoms adjoining it.
The Sahara is the linking pin- the motor of
Africa's bio-cultural evolution. This is where
"African Americans" start.


The eternal Sahara is the key, the starting point,
the genesis, the fundamental force. Egypt
follows AFTER and derives from that broad Saharan
foundation, not before. So do the civilizations of
Western Africa. There is no need to seek
"inspiration" from latecomers like Rameses or Cleopatra.
The "inspiration" springs from the starting point,
the African cultures that gave rise to the Egyptian
dynastic civilization. It is from that genesis, that
launching point, that other developments are appreciated,
in all their cIt ontinuity.

Pyramids do not have to appear in Nigeria to recognize
the fundamental substratum of African cultures from Jos to Memphis, just
as temples to Apollo do not need to appear in Sweden for Swedes
to acknowledge the fundamental Indo-European cultural strands
uniting Greeks and Swedes. The hypocritical double standard
that has no problem with Greeks worshipping Egyptian gods in temples
dedicated to them, yet suddenly finds a "problem" when African
kingship patterns from far south (jubilees, rainmaker, regicide etc)
or African religous influces from south (numerous animal deities, i.e.
panther gods, grass skirts and regalia) appear both in Egypt and other
African areas to the south, speaks volumes as to the real racist motivation
of those who want to whitewash Egypt out of African context.

The final exposure of white or Egypto-Arab proxy hypocrisy is demostrated by the Nubians.
The people closest to the ancient Etyptians are the Nubians, not white
Europeans, not "Middle Easterners." But the hypocrites have a problem
with Nubians 300 miles away from Egypt, but no problem with saying
Swedes and Greeks thousands of miles apart re all Europran. The former
somehow can;t be African, but the latter is waved in as European. Such is
white hypocrisy.

[Quote by another conservative
mainstream scholar:]


"There is now a sufficient body of
evidence from modern studies of skeletal
remains to indicate that the ancient
Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians,
exhibited physical characteristics that are
within the range of variation for ancient
and modern indigenous peoples of the
Sahara and tropical Africa.." (Nancy C.
Lovell, " Egyptians, physical
anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the
Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed.
Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake
Shubert, ( London and New York:
Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)


The Sahara was also a key player in the
great West African civilizations that were
to arise as well- Mali, Ghana, Timbuktu
etc., ranging from the Saharan trade, to
the transmission of knowledge, to the
transmission of new methods and
technologies.

The Sahara is the great linking pin and
transmission belt culturally. It is also the
great climate and environmental motor
that shaped one-third of Africa. As one
study notes:

From:
Climate-Controlled Holocene
Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of
Africa's Evolution
by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin*

”Radiocarbon data from 150
archaeological excavations in the now
hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt,
Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close
links between climatic variations and
prehistoric occupation during the past
12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator
views for major time slices demonstrate
the transition from initial settlement after
the sudden onset of humid conditions at
8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from
gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E.
Southward shifting of the desert margin
helped trigger the emergence of
pharaonic civilization along the Nile,
influenced the spread of pastoralism
throughout the continent, and affects
sub-Saharan Africa to the present
day.”



Informed African Americans place Egypt
in its proper context as a tropical
civilization. They don’t begin any
exploration of African civilizations with
Egypt, they start with AFRICA ITSELF,
from which the genesis, the foundational
elements sprung, that provided the
basis or substratum for that civilization.
The Sahara is one such central
foundational element. It is in that broad
Saharan zone for example that the ancients
created theih huge megaliths of stone, and
designed calendars and other astonomical alignments.
It is from that broad zone that the cattle cults of
NE Africa developed- cults that were to figure so
prominently in Egyptian religion. It is from the
African genesis that other concepts such as divine
kingship, and the art iconography of Egypt developed.
It is from the Saharan zone (which extends well into
the Sudan) that patterns of technology in pottery,
toolmaking, mummification, and numerous other influences
emerged that were to distinguish ancient Egypt.
ANy "inspiration" taken by African-American begins
with a foundation based on the ground, in Africa.


There are other
“African Americans” who look even
further back than the Saharan mix
mentioned above. They look back to the
dawn of modern humanity, which
emerged from “sub-Saharan” Africa, then
proceeded to Northeast Africa, (also "sub Saharan"
by the way), and from there to the rest of the
globe by various exit routes. Again, the
starting point for any discussion remains AFRICA itself.

[quote]:
“These studies suggest a recent and
primary subdivision between African and
non-African populations, high levels of
divergence among African populations,
and a recent shared common ancestry of
non-African populations, from a
population originating in Africa. ...
populations in northeastern Africa may
have diverged from those in the rest of
sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of
modern African populations and that a
subset of this northeastern-African
population migrated out of Africa and
populated the rest of the globe. These
conclusions are supported by recent
mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al.
1999)."
[Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short
Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism.. Am J
Hum Genet; 67:901-925]


African-Americans thus don't need
anyone to tell them how they "should"
think about Egypt, the Nile Valley, the
Sahara or any other part of Africa, nor
do they need "clearance" or "approval"
from would be, reputed or alleged
"concerned Egyptians" or presumptuous
white or Arab lecturers to place Egypt in its
scientifically documented African context.

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xyyman
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Great post Zaharan!!!

@ the other, I have a bridge to sell you.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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That is one of my point. When I said the results look funky. The data is like kumbaya African....
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?


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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Amun Ra says:
The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence.


Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely
on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA
is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced
against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated
or distorted just like any other. How often has
sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies.
As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the
Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:

--Limb proportion
--Cranial
--Dental
--Cultural/historical
--Archaealogical
--DNA


Together or separately they confirm that as one scholar says:

"must be placed in the context of
hypotheses informed by archaeological,
linguistic, geographic and other data. In
such contexts, the physical
anthropological evidence indicates that
early Nile Valley populations can be
identified as part of an African lineage,
but exhibiting local variation. This
variation represents the short and long
term effects of evolutionary forces, such
as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural
selection, influenced by culture and
geography."

--Nancy C. Lovell, "Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in
Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of
Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and
Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and
New York: Routledge, 1999). pp
328-332) [/i]

Of course I agree with you. The Ancient Egyptian African origin, ethnicity, culture, history, characteristics must be studied with a multidisciplinary approach. Even if aDNA genetic is something very solid in term of identifying which lineages it sprung from. I just disagreed about the use of the sickle cell traits as a proof that Ancient Egyptian are related to other black Africans. I think I made of good job at explaining why above. The sickle cell traits have been proven to appear concurrently in different African populations (as well as elsewhere in the world). That is different mutational events on different chromosome! So.

See here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622;p=3#000107

and here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008622;p=3#000109


I agree about the multidisciplinary approach, but by using obviously wrong argumentation it only undermine what we try to prove/demonstrate in the first place. Maybe the expression "peripheral evidence" is a bad choice of word, I should have said 'wrong evidence' instead but I didn't' want to sound too confrontational.

It's like on the other site. There was some very interesting poster who tried unfortunately to use the rock formation in Niger (iirc) that looked like a pyramid as a proof of the cultural link between black Africans and Ancient Egyptians. Those link exist and there's many argumentation for it. But this specific argumentation was wrong because those "pyramid" were determined to be only rock formation dating something like 100 000 years ago (i don't remember the exact dating). Using those rock formations that look like pyramid as a proof that Ancient Egyptian and black Africans from Niger are related is wrong. It's just wrong. Even if, as you know, I believe strongly that it is the case. I believe strongly than ancient people from the Niger (during the green sahara period) are linked with Ancient Egyptians. I made a whole thread about it on this forum. I often talk about the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilization. The oldest pottery in Africa is found in Mali. Mummification pre-dating Ancient Egypt can be found in southern Libya. The burial tumulus tradition of the ancient Saharans combined with the use of megalith (like in Nabta Playa) can be a considered a prelude to the creation of pyramid (I didn't post about it yet on this forum, I will do it in the future), there's many cultural and religious linkage with people from the Green Sahara period (the wavy line pottery civilization) like in Mali and Niger with Ancient Egyptians, etc etc etc etc. All those proof were found despite the dearth of archeological works undertaken in the Saharan desert and Africa in general. It's just that the pyramid-like rock formation and the sickle cell thing are wrong argumentations that only undermine the whole issue because they are obviously wrong. Same thing with trying to steal other people's haplogroup like F descendant haplogroup While there's a lot of other solid argumentation linking people from the Sahara as far as the Atlantic coast (especially southern Mali, Niger, and the western Egyptian desert) with people from the Nile Valley.

See one of my thread about it:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008330;p=1#000000

I'm not destroying those wrong argumentation because I want to undermine the issue. Nor because i'm looking for a fight. All the contrary. I want to make the argumentation stronger by eliminating obviously wrong mistake and error (like those pyramid thing or that sickle cell thing or the ridiculous claim about the African origin of foreign haplogroups) which then undermine the credibility of the whole issue!! I hope Tukuler, you and others understand when I do that. If you see my thread about the peopling of the Sahara during the Green Sahara period. You can see, I'm a strong proponent of the linkage between so-called sub-Saharan Africans and Ancient Egypt. Obviously the study results posted by Beyoku about the aDNA of Ancient Kemetian remains got me very happy. Those results combined with other multidisciplinary proof and other aDNA studies like the DNA Tribes results and Ramses III being E1b1a is practically the ultimate confirmation of it all. I think even mainstream egyptology won't be able to avoid the issue (or talk about it quickly as sometimes they do now, almost as a side note like when they say "while there's some cultural and religious similarities between sub-saharans Africans and Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Egyptians are mostly blablabla").

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
What a clusterfuck of wasting time talking about M89. There have been more discussion about all kinds of bullshit vs the actual data that has been posted. Come on ES. We can do better than that.

You are right of course. If there's anybody who can steer the discussion in a new direction it's you since you have access to the full study I think.

There's nothing much I can add except to say I'm extremely happy about the results. It seems the Ancient Egyptian were composed of a wide variety of mainly African lineages (A, B and E) who settled along the Nile after the desertification of the Sahara. It seems to go in line with previous aDNA studies about Kemetians, that is the DNA Tribes study and the study about Ramses III being E1b1a. A bold step for black African people to reclaim their historical heritage. After the publishing of the report, I hope for more aDNA studies,also for more archeological studies to be done in Egypt, Africa and the Ancient Sahara regions. I also hope than in the next few years mainstream egyptology will catch up with those genetic results and other discoveries made in the Nabta Playa sites, Mali, Niger, etc.

I can't wait to see the full study!

Of course all of us are glade to see these results even thou it's in premature fashion. No discussion about that.
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Swenet
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Sickle Cell in Egypt has so far been shown to be
exclusively of the Benin variety. No reason
to believe this would have been different in
ancient times. Indeed, the distribution of the
Benin haplotype closely matches the path mtDNA
L1b1a8, l2a1k and NRY E-M78 carrying Nile Valley
groups would have traversed in the Middle East
and Eastern Europe in the Epi-Palaeolithic.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Sickle Cell in Egypt has so far been shown to be exclusively of the Benin variety. No reason to believe this would have been different in ancient times. Indeed, the distribution of the Benin haplotype closely matches the path mtDNA L1b1a8, l2a1k and NRY E-M78 carrying Nile Valley groups would have traversed in the Middle East and Eastern Europe in the Epi-Palaeolithic.

I will admit, as I said above, that I didn't study the situation about the sickle cell very much and go with what was posted in this thread (and the other study I read because of it). According to the study posted by Troll, the Benin variety (as any other variety for that matter) is said to be relatively recent. What I understood by this is that the chromosome mutation responsible for the sickle cell is a relatively recent development (the study even talk about the importance of the Malaria as a major disease in Africa to also be relatively recent).

quote:
Our results suggest that the sickle cell gene may have been preferentially introduced through males of migrating west African tribes (Figure 1), particularly Hausa-Fulani, and Bagara in the large migrations that began in the eighteenth century and escalated during the nineteenth and early twentieth century . The estimates of a recent figure of 1–3 generations for the introduction of the gene and associated haplotypes to eastern Sahel, is consistent with demography during the past 100 years and with a hypothesis of a recent origin of malaria as a major human infection
The other study, I quoted in the above post talks about the "caravan" route in the desert responsible for the distribution of the gene in Northern Africa (that is the Benin variety in Northern Africa and Europe). Thus something relatively recent. Did other studies (or those studies if I misread things)are compatible with such an ancient date (as far back as New Kingdom time) for the development of the sickle cell mutation? If they call it the Benin variety doesn't it means that it started in Benin then was transferred to Northern Africa and the rest of Africa? Thus the origin of the mutation, that is the the first human to have that specific mutation was in Benin? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just curious about it.

Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if it wasn't recent. It would maybe mean that there's a gene transfer from Benin (West Africa) to North Africa, Europe and Ancient Egypt in ancient time (or vice versa if it started in Kemet or around it). But the studies quoted seem to talk about a much more recent time for the timing of the expansion of the Benin gene variety into northern Africa and elsewhere.

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xyyman
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Linguistics also. Even geography plays a very important part.

quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:



Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely
on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA
is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced
against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated
or distorted just like any other. How often has
sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies.
As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the
Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:

--Limb proportion
--Cranial
--Dental
--Cultural/historical
--Archaealogical
--DNA




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Swenet
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I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just
making inferences. I'm well aware that many
researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively
recent disease, but I've seen no molecular
specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent
internal lesions keep cropping up in both
dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some
TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the
authors themselves admit that the estimated
haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian
expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the
puzzle together.

--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC
associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where
L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya,
respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From
this expansive region both lineages expanded to
North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and
L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012

--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have
been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former
in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre
Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in
dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).

--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish
groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern)
Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer
to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian
versions:

quote:
If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of
matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African
groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon,
Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are
*no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan,
which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an
African/Jewish overlap.

link

The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a
and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with
Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated
with E-M78.

--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high
L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle
predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3
or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic
associated lineages have been found been found.
In all implied regions, namely, West/Central
Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South-
Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is
always the Benin one.

Coincidence? I think not.

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beyoku
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^ Mind if i repost that.
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Swenet
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^Not at all. Share away, I say.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

While I'm at it
R in Cameroon is not Fulbe but Ouldeme et al ttbomk

R1b (from YDNA Chart page 2 of this thread)

Ouldeme (Chadic) 99.5%
North Cameroon (Chadic) 70.4
Fulbe (Sudan) 53.8
Hausa (Sudan) 40.6
South African whites 51.6
Tuareg Niger 33.3


What do you think the origin of R1b is?
I know most reearch suggest a Western Asian origin but are there some articles that argue African origin?
I don't know

__________________________________________________


quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

So, when are you going to show the distribution of V88 and U5 amongst the Fulbe?

(I don't know why you are asking me about this we already discuessed it in U6 pt2 and Genomic Ancestry threads

 -
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool
of Berber Populations

C. Coudray1∗ 2008'


" Eurasian U macrohaplogroup is subdivided into U1 to U9 (with the exception of U6 restricted to North Africa) and K lineages. U has an extremely broad geographical distribution and accounts for about 20% of European mtDNA sequences (Herrnstadt et al. 2002). In this study, it is represented by four haplogroups: U2, U3, U4 and U5. U2 can be found at low frequencies in populations of western Asia and the Caucasus. Here, it was observed only in the Berbers from Bouhria, by two subclades, U2b (1 sequence) and U2e (2 sequences). U3 is observed at 1.1% (U3a) and 1.3% (U3) in samples from Figuig and Siwa, respectively. This haplogroup has a frequency peak in the Near East (Achilli et al. 2007). U4 haplogroup is spread at moderate frequencies all over Europe, western Siberia, and southwestern Asia (Richards et al. 2000). Only one sequence from Bouhria belongs to U4. U5, one of the most ancient subhaplogroup of U, occurs in most cases as occasional haplotypes that are derived from European lineages (Achilli et al. 2005; Richards et al. 2000). In 16.7% of Siwi samples, it appears as U5b, a lineage suggesting back-migration of people from Europe to the South (Torroni et al. 2006). One Berber from Asni also bears this sequence......

genetic ex- changes could have taken place during prehistory, while Eu- ropean populations retreated from ice sheets and expanded from refuge, around 15,000 years ago (as evidenced by the H and U5b mitochondrial lineages). Alternatively, these ex- changes could have occurred during history, with the invasion and the occupation during nearly seven centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of the Iberian Peninsula by Almora- vide then Almohade Muslim Berber troops."


_______________________________________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15791543

Saami and Berbers--an unexpected mitochondrial DNA link.

Am J Hum Genet.

It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.....

Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.


 -
_________________________________^^^29, Fulbe, Senegal

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
I read somewhere in a source once, that Vikings took slaves to Northwest Africa as well. Guess who those were? Saami. Yes, Saami.


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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just
making inferences. I'm well aware that many
researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively
recent disease, but I've seen no molecular
specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent
internal lesions keep cropping up in both
dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some
TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the
authors themselves admit that the estimated
haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian
expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the
puzzle together.

--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC
associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where
L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya,
respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From
this expansive region both lineages expanded to
North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and
L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012

--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have
been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former
in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre
Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in
dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).

--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish
groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern)
Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer
to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian
versions:

quote:
If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of
matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African
groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon,
Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are
*no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan,
which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an
African/Jewish overlap.

link

The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a
and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with
Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated
with E-M78.

--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high
L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle
predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3
or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic
associated lineages have been found been found.
In all implied regions, namely, West/Central
Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South-
Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is
always the Benin one.

Coincidence? I think not.

Interesting post. You sure make a good case. Although a coincidence is possible because humans often tend to use similar migration route even during different migration events separated in time. Especially when you consider that the sickle cell mutation is said to be relatively recent.
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Swenet
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Again, I may very well be wrong about the overlap
between the Epi-Palaeolithic coalescing
haplogroups and Benin HbS in Eurasia (a much
weaker, but competing case can be made for the
idea that these Benin HbS cases are exclusively
associated with later, more recent mtDNA L type
associated migrations), but one thing I'm not
wrong in is that SC is an ancient condition.
Pred. mummies with SC characteristics in their
bone and skin tissue have already been confirmed
to be HbS positive! The only thing that hasn't
conclusively been proven is whether these ancient
SC cases are of the Benin type, but this is
implied due to the overwhelming, almost exclusive
share of Benin HbS in modern Egypt.

quote:
We conducted a molecular investigation of
the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic
Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the
Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin.
Previous studies of these remains showed the
presence of severe anemia, while histological
preparations of mummified tissues revealed
hemolytic disorders
. DNA was extracted from
dental samples with a silica-gel method specific
for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase
chain reaction (PCR), called amplification
refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then
applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the
PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide
mutations. In this method, amplification can
occur only in the presence of the specific
mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was
analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three
individuals, there was a band at the level of
the HbS mutated fragment
, indicating that
they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of
our results, we discuss the possible uses of new
molecular investigation systems in
paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases
and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.

--Marin et al 1999

Note also:

quote:
Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10815786

On the basis of a sample of 117 chromosomes,
we have demonstrated the multicentric origin of
the sickle mutation in Northern Oman. Three major
haplotypes coexist: 52.1% Benin (typical and
atypicals), 26.7% Arab-India, and 21.4% Bantu.
These haplotypes are not autochthonous to Oman
but originated elsewhere and arrived in Oman by
gene flow. The distribution of haplotypes is
in excellent agreement with the historical
record, which establishes clear ancient contacts
between Oman and sub-Sahara west Africa and
explains the presence of the Benin haplotype;

contacts with Iraq, Iran, present-day Pakistan,
and India explain the presence of the Arab-India
haplotype. More recent contacts with East Africa
(Zanzibar/Mombasa) explain the presence of the
Bantu haplotype. The pattern of the Arab-India
haplotype in the populations of the Arabian
peninsula reinforces the hypothesis that this
particular mutation originated in the Harappa
culture or in a nearby population and in addition
reveals that the Sassanian Empire might have been
the vehicle by which this Indo-European sickle
mutation migrated (gene flow) to the present-day
Arabian peninsula, including Oman.
[/QB]

There is absolutely no reason why Benin HbS
should exceed Bantu HbS in frequency, or indeed,
even be present in noteworthy freqs, if, as you
say, HbS has a recent origin. The Zanj slaves
that were imported to Arabia in Medieval times
would logically be primarily associated with
Bantu HbS, not Benin HbS. How can Benin HbS in
Oman, to the tune of 52%, be explained in the
scenario that it originated only recently?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just
making inferences. I'm well aware that many
researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively
recent disease, but I've seen no molecular
specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent
internal lesions keep cropping up in both
dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some
TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the
authors themselves admit that the estimated
haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian
expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the
puzzle together.

--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC
associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where
L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya,
respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From
this expansive region both lineages expanded to
North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and
L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012

--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have
been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former
in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre
Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in
dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).

--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish
groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern)
Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer
to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian
versions:

quote:
If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of
matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African
groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon,
Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are
*no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan,
which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an
African/Jewish overlap.

link

The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a
and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with
Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated
with E-M78.

--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high
L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle
predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3
or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic
associated lineages have been found been found.
In all implied regions, namely, West/Central
Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South-
Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is
always the Benin one.

Coincidence? I think not.

Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe

María Cerezo et al.


http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/5/821/F1.large.jpg

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/5/821/F1.expansion.html


http://genome.cshlp.org/content/22/5/821.full

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
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SC was spread to South and West Asia by Sumerian,Dravidian and other Niger-Congo speakers 5kya. The Benin and Senegal HbS probably originated in the Saharan Highlands and Nubia the original homeland of the Niger-Congo people.

See:

C. Winters, Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians
http://www.soeagra.com/abr/vol2/12.pdf

C. Winters: Sickle Cell Anemia In India And Africa. The Internet Journal of Hematology. 2011 Volume 7 Number 2. DOI: 10.5580/162
http://archive.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-hematology/volume-7-number-2/sickle-cell-anemia-in-india-and-africa.html#sthash.s8XFESbz.dpbs

.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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Clyde Winters
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The Dravidian people share cultural and linguistic features with Africans [10-14]. The archaeological
evidence suggest that the Dravidian people belonged to the C-Group people of Nubia and migrated to
India 5kya [9,10-11]. The Dravidian origination in Nubia, the original home of the Niger-Congo
speakers who carry the Benin and Senegal HbS would explain the existence of African HbS
haplotypes in India. These haplotypes in India suggest that they already existed among Dravidian and
Niger-Congo speaking populations before they separated 5kya.

The HbS chromosome haplotypes of the Indian Tribals were Arab-Indian with 25% of the haplotypes
possessing the epsilon polymorphic site identical to the Senegal6b. The Senegal and Indian sickle cell
share haplotypes [8]. The Arab-Indian and Senegal haplotypes share the C!T mutation at position -158
4,7.

In India the Benin HbS is the most common haplotype in western India. To account for the presence
of this haplotype in India researchers argue that African slaves took this gene to India.
There are problems with this theory. The major problem with the slave trade solution for the
transmission of the Benin haplotype to India, is that the African slaves in India are mainly of Somali-
Ethiopian origin—not West African origin .


C. Winters, Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians
http://www.soeagra.com/abr/vol2/12.pdf

C. Winters: Sickle Cell Anemia In India And Africa. The Internet Journal of Hematology. 2011 Volume 7 Number 2. DOI: 10.5580/162
http://archive.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-hematology/volume-7-number-2/sickle-cell-anemia-in-india-and-africa.html#sthash.s8XFESbz.dpbs

--------------------
C. A. Winters

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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
That is one of my point. When I said the results look funky. The data is like kumbaya African....
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?


Not really though. You may see a lot of different lineages maybe because you are unfamiliar with the lineages. The Eurasian ones aside. Nearly all the lineages in question can be explained by looking at only a few ancestral groups - The ancestors of Proto Afroasitcs from the Horn of Africa, Ancestors of Nilo-Saharans and the affinity with West Africans via the Sahel / Chad Basin.

Most of this modern diversity can be found in Siwa Egyptians.
 -

The only thing the dont have is a3b2 and E2.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Linguistics also. Even geography plays a very important part.

quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:



Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely
on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA
is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced
against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated
or distorted just like any other. How often has
sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies.
As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the
Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:

--Limb proportion
--Cranial
--Dental
--Cultural/historical
--Archaealogical
--DNA




^^lol.. Yep.. I forgot about linguistic.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB] Again, I may very well be wrong about the overlap
between the Epi-Palaeolithic coalescing
haplogroups and Benin HbS in Eurasia (a much
weaker, but competing case can be made for the
idea that these Benin HbS cases are exclusively
associated with later, more recent mtDNA L type
associated migrations), but one thing I'm not
wrong in is that SC is an ancient condition.
Pred. mummies with SC characteristics in their
bone and skin tissue have already been confirmed
to be HbS positive! The only thing that hasn't
conclusively been proven is whether these ancient
SC cases are of the Benin type, but this is
implied due to the overwhelming, almost exclusive
share of Benin HbS in modern Egypt.

quote:
We conducted a molecular investigation of
the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic
Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the
Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin.
Previous studies of these remains showed the
presence of severe anemia, while histological
preparations of mummified tissues revealed
hemolytic disorders
. DNA was extracted from
dental samples with a silica-gel method specific
for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase
chain reaction (PCR), called amplification
refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then
applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the
PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide
mutations. In this method, amplification can
occur only in the presence of the specific
mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was
analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three
individuals, there was a band at the level of
the HbS mutated fragment
, indicating that
they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of
our results, we discuss the possible uses of new
molecular investigation systems in
paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases
and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.

--Marin et al 1999

The Marin et al 1999 study that I didn't knew about changes everything. I don't like to use modern population as prototype for ancient population so for me, as you say, it's all about determining if the Hbs gene in Ancient Egyptian remains was the Benin variety or another isolated mutation (on a different chromosome).

Maybe it's because we don't have access to the full study. But what I don't understand is how can we not know which variety of the Hbs gene was in Ancient Egyptian mummies? Since the differnt varieties are on different location (and chromosome apparently) on the DNA, the Marin study, which have been able to find the Hbs gene in Ancient Egyptian remains, must know which chromosome (or location in general) the Hbs gene of Ancient Egyptian remains have. Doesn't it? They found it, they know it.

Is it possible to detect the Hbs gene (not the trait but the gene) and not know which variety it is?


quote:

Note also:
There is absolutely no reason why Benin HbS
should exceed Bantu HbS in frequency, or indeed,
even be present in noteworthy freqs, if, as you
say, HbS has a recent origin. The Zanj slaves
that were imported to Arabia in Medieval times
would logically be primarily associated with
Bantu HbS, not Benin HbS. How can Benin HbS in
Oman, to the tune of 52%, be explained in the
scenario that it originated only recently?

I now beginning to believe the great possibility of Ancient Egyptian and so-called sub-saharan African sharing the sickle cell gene (and not just the traits, which have been shown to sprung in different independent location). And thus the Benin variety to be really ancient and having been brought to Ancient Egypt in ancient time. I don't know much about the Zanj (beside reading a bit about the rebellion and the unrelated Zanzibar revolution). But just to play the devil's advocate here, I can say that it's possible that the Oman Benin sickle cell variety was brought relatively recently by a different circumstances than the Zanj. Since the sickle cell gene (contrary to most haplotype, I would say) has a strong selective pressure. It doesn't take that much introduction of the Hbs sickle cell gene to any location for it to then become highly prevalent. People who don't have it, simply die of malaria in a region strongly touched by that disease. So, it's easy to reach 52% of the population rather quickly because of the strong selective pressure of the Hbs gene. Obviously, the Benin variety may as well have been brought in ancient time in that region.

Although what I am more curious about, as I said before, is to have access to the Marin study to see what variety of the sickle cell gene the Ancient Kemetian remains had.

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BrandonP
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@ Son of Ra

You think you could cross-post this thread's text onto your new anthropology forum?

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Son of Ra
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^^^Sure.
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Sundjata
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Exciting revelation! Will have to stay tuned. Shot out to Beyoku for sharing.

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Credit actually goes to beyoku for presenting this to everyone. And also credit to Firewall for actually PMing me this in the first place.

Anyways...This is really interesting and the fight for an African Ancient Egypt is starting to come to a close..

quote:

OK A-M13 L3f
Ok A-M13 L0a1
OK B-M150 L3d
OK E-M2 L3e5
OK E-M2 L2a1
OK E-M123 L5a1
OK E-M35 R0a
OK E-M41 L2a1
OK E-M41 L1b1a
OK E-M75 M1
OK E-M78 L4b
OK J-M267 L3i
OK R-M173 L2
OK T-M184 L0a


MK A-M13 L3x
MK E-M75 L2a1
MK E-M78 L3e5
MK E-M78 M1a
MK E-M96 L4a
MK E-V6 L3
MK B-M112 L0b



Click on link to see what beyoku states.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/43154-Egyptian-Old-Kingdom-and-New-Kingdom-Ancient-DNA-results


He makes some really good points. It appears its not the full study and I think beyoku states he is not able to post the full one for some reason.


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the lioness,
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Anglo Pyramidologist appears on the thread as "Book Gremlin'
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Anglo Pyramidologist appears on the thread as "Book Gremlin'

I try to post on that site but half of my posts get moderated out. Can you believe it? The contents of my posts are similar to the ones on this thread.
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Son of Ra
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^^^Agreed. Thats what I hate about Biodiversity site...The mods have to review your post in order for them to get posted. To make matters worse not only are ALL the mods Eurocentrics bu full blown RACISTS!!!!!!!!!!!
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BrandonP
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^ I don't bother with forumbiodiversity for the most part. I can only take so much stupid.

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Son of Ra
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^^^Tell me about. -__-

Some of the post on that site are just ridiculous.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Anglo Pyramidologist appears on the thread as "Book Gremlin'

I try to post on that site but half of my posts get moderated out. Can you believe it? The contents of my posts are similar to the ones on this thread.
I'm banned. I had some Egypt and anti-Nazi stuff up and member 'toilet man' snitched on me
Perhaps beyoku has the technique down for avoiding being banned while posting counter-Eurocentric information. Did his alias 'four' get banned? zarahan used to be a member. He pretended to be a white supremacist but then flipped the script (but they got rid of him quick)
The site is owned by white supremacist 'Racial Reality" who has a separate website also. Neverthless it has many posters and there are mant interesting posts on Africa there.
Anglo Pyramidologist had been banned under different names because he was questioning moderator Crimson Guard's white supremacy credentials but now appears as Book Gremlin.

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