Without explanations this seems like one of the worst thread on this site to post this. This thread is about Ancient DNA of Kemetian mummies and this is about the relatively recent development of sickle cell genes (at least according to this study, the one you posted).
Just consider this quote from the text:
quote: Our results suggest that the sickle cell gene may have been preferentially introduced through males of migrating west African tribes (Figure 1), particularly Hausa-Fulani, and Bagara in the large migrations that began in the eighteenth century and escalated during the nineteenth and early twentieth century . The estimates of a recent figure of 1–3 generations for the introduction of the gene and associated haplotypes to eastern Sahel, is consistent with demography during the past 100 years and with a hypothesis of a recent origin of malaria as a major human infection
On another study they say :
quote: The data presented here provide strong evidence that the Hb S gene was generated in Africa by at least three separate mutational events involving three or more different chromosomes [Edit:Senegal, Benin and Bantu I would say]. In addition, the data suggest that the Hb S gene migrated from West Africa to North Africa through the well documented trans-Saharan caravan routes (12). Also, the data are entirely compatible with the Bantu expansion having originated in an area close to the frontier of present day Nigeria and Cameroon. From Evidence for the multicentric origin of the sickle cell hemoglobin gene in Africa
Here's a map of sickle cell gene distribution in the world:
Maybe if you say why you post this, in relation to this thread, instead of just dumping it with no explanations. It would make it more interesting. Just a suggestion. I'm no expert on the sickle cell gene, so I'm curious why you posted this on this thread.
Instead of spending your "precious time" responding to this, you could have answered my questions I've proposed. Because these fragmented issues need to be (re)solved.
quote:Complementary evidence for parallel origins of sickle cell is discernable in ethnicity, some notable examples being the concurrency of gene population spread attributed to expansions of Iron Age Bantu speakers both south and eastwards in Africa emerging from the area of present-day Cameroon, and subsequently across the Atlantic by events associated with the ‘Middle Passage’.
--Rihab E Bereir et al.
King Tut died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria
quote: King Tutankhamun died from sickle-cell disease, not malaria, say experts. A team from Hamburg's Bernhard Noct Institute for Tropical Medicine (BNI) claim the disease is a far likelier cause of death than the combination of bone disorders and malaria put forward by Egyptian experts earlier this year.
The BNI team argues that theories offered by Egyptian experts, led by antiquities tsar Zahi Hawass, are based on data that can be interpreted otherwise. They say further analysis of the data will confirm or deny their work. Hawass' claim, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association this February, and followed by a swarm of accompanying television shows, claimed King Tut suffered from Kohler's disease, a bone disorder prohibiting blood flow, before succumbing to malaria.
Multiple bone disorders, including one in Tutankhamun's left foot, led to the Kohler's diagnosis, while segments of a malarial parasite were found via DNA testing. Yet the BNI team claims the latter results are incorrect. “Malaria in combination with Köhler's disease causing Tutankhamun's early death seems unlikely to us,” say Prof Christian Meyer and Dr Christian Timmann.
Instead the BNI team feels sickle-cell disease (SCD), a genetic blood disorder, is a more likely reason for the Pharaoh's death aged just 19. The disease occurs in 9 to 22 per cent of people living in the Egyptian oases, and gives a better chance of surviving malaria; the infestation halted by sickled cells.
They say the disease occurs frequently in malarial regions like the River Nile, and that it would account for the bone defects found on his body.
“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.
The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.
“Sickle-cell disease is an important differential diagnosis: one that existing DNA material can probably confirm or rule out,” conclude Timmann and Meyer. They suggest that further testing of ancient Egyptian royal mummies should bear their conclusions in mind.
King Tut's young demise has long been a source of speculation. As well as malaria, recent decades have seen scholars argue that he was murdered, and that he died from infection caused by a broken leg.
This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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It is notable that no example of a Haplogroup IJ* Y-chromosome has been found among any modern human population; the existence of the Haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ* belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia tends to support the hypothesis that Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup F in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East and subsequently spread throughout Western Eurasia.
"The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe" -ISOGG
Again the early origin is uncertain however the lineage that has been found in modern populations is J1 and J2 and these are mutations that are believed to have occured in Arabia and the the frequencies of J in North Africa are dued to the spread of Islam rather than and archaic IJ
You can do the same with any sub clade, follow the parent to OOA and then use this method to determine any haplogroup therefore is African and also assume therefore it is impossible that any people migrated from outside of Africa into Africa (were they once came from) You might as well say there is no such thing as an Asian or European person
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: familypedia.wikia.com/
Haplogroup IJ (Y-DNA)
It is notable that no example of a Haplogroup IJ* Y-chromosome has been found among any modern human population; the existence of the Haplogroup IJ node has been inferred from the fact that certain mutations are shared in common among all Y-chromosomes belonging to the descendant haplogroups I and J. The lack of any examples of Haplogroup IJ* belonging to neither Haplogroup I nor Haplogroup J complicates any attempt to deduce the geographical location where Haplogroup IJ first appeared; however, the fact that both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are found among modern populations of the Caucasus, Anatolia, and Southwest Asia tends to support the hypothesis that Haplogroup IJ derived from Haplogroup F in the vicinity of West Asia or the Middle East and subsequently spread throughout Western Eurasia.
"The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe" -ISOGG
Again the early origin is uncertain however the lineage that has been found in modern populations is J1 and J2 and these are mutations that are believed to have occured in Arabia and the the frequencies of J in North Africa are dued to the spread of Islam rather than and archaic IJ
You can do the same with any sub clade, follow the parent to OOA and then use this method to determine any haplogroup therefore is African You might as well say there is no such thing as an Asian or European person
Wikipedia (someone's opinion) vs The International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) (2013)
quote:The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It doesn't matter if IJ is African
the presence of J1 and J2 in North Africa is due to the spread of Islam 7-8th century AD
not IJ tens of thousands of years ago
Yes, it does matter. It may have spread in abundance afterwards...as you state. But eventually it follows a logical path within Africa, being distributed. As Djehuti and others mentioned before, including myself.
J1 is not J2 btw. The allele and chromosomes are important, to understand the nuclear clades. When trying to understand aDNA vs TMRCA.
I suggest a parallel divergence of mutations.
So, when are you going to show the distribution of V88 and U5 amongst the Fulbe?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.
Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.
Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
Your personal "opinion". VS.
“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.
The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.
But the German researchers said in a letter published online Wednesday by the Journal of the American Medical Association that closer scrutiny of his foot bones pointed to sickle cell disease, in which red blood cells become dangerously misshaped.
"(The) radiological signs are compatible with osteopathologic lesions seen in sickle cell disease (SCD), a hematological disorder that occurs at gene carrier rates of nine percent to 22 percent in inhabitants of Egyptian oases."
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.
Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
Your personal "opinion". VS.
“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.
The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.
But the German researchers said in a letter published online Wednesday by the Journal of the American Medical Association that closer scrutiny of his foot bones pointed to sickle cell disease, in which red blood cells become dangerously misshaped.
"(The) radiological signs are compatible with osteopathologic lesions seen in sickle cell disease (SCD), a hematological disorder that occurs at gene carrier rates of nine percent to 22 percent in inhabitants of Egyptian oases."
I'll grant you, it's a possibility like any other but I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence. Even the study you posted about sickle cell contradicts you because it shows different geographical (thus ethnic) origin of the sickle cell gene (Benin, Nigeria, Bantu, iirc). It also talk about **recent** development of such traits (something you avoid responding to). So, there's no way to know which "strain" (bad word I know) of sickle cell gene was present in Ancient Egypt, it may also have been an independent one, if there ever was that is, which I don't believe. Even the traits already present in Africa are not from the same origin (they are from 3 different origin Senegal, Benin and Bantu iirc). Can you really base any theory about Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity on this? No.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: This news amuses me when euronuts claim to be the direct descendants of King Tut. Yet, they lack the Sickle-Cell disease.
Yeah, I saw that news line about the possibility of King Tut having died of Sickle cell. It's the only researcher who have elaborated this theory and frankly it's based on flimsy assumption. Personally, I don't think King Tut died of sickle cell. I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. Have you seen the map of sickle cell anemia gene distribution? Even your own study negate that possibility (have you read it?). The gene being a relatively recent development. There's more chance of king tut having died of malaria or any other causes of death than this imo.
Your personal "opinion". VS.
“The genetic predisposition for (SCD) can be found in regions where malaria frequently occurs, including ancient and modern Egypt.” says Meyer. “The disease can only manifest itself when a sickle cell trait is inherited from both parents: it is a so-called 'recessive inheritance'.” A family tree for the Pharaoh suggested by Hawass himself appears to back the BNI team's case.
The relatively old age of Tutankhamun's parents and relatives – up to 50 years – means they could very well have carried sickle-cell traits, and could therefore have been highly resistant to malaria. The high likelihood that King Tut's parents were siblings means he could have inherited the sickle cell trait from both and suffered from SCD.
But the German researchers said in a letter published online Wednesday by the Journal of the American Medical Association that closer scrutiny of his foot bones pointed to sickle cell disease, in which red blood cells become dangerously misshaped.
"(The) radiological signs are compatible with osteopathologic lesions seen in sickle cell disease (SCD), a hematological disorder that occurs at gene carrier rates of nine percent to 22 percent in inhabitants of Egyptian oases."
I'll grant you, it's a possibility like any other but I wouldn't base any theory on Ancient Egyptian origin on it. The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence. Even the study you posted about sickle cell contradicts you because it shows different geographical (thus ethnic) origin of the sickle cell gene (Benin, Nigeria, Bantu, iirc). It also talk about **recent** development of such traits (something you avoid responding to). So, there's no way to know which "strain" (bad word I know) of sickle cell gene was present in Ancient Egypt, it may also have been an independent one, if there ever was that is, which I don't believe. Even the traits already present in Africa are not from the same origin (they are from 3 different origin Senegal, Benin and Bantu iirc). Can you really base any theory about Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity on this? No.
I don't see how it is contracting?
quote:Complementary evidence for parallel origins of sickle cell is discernable in ethnicity, some notable examples being the concurrency of gene population spread attributed to expansions of Iron Age Bantu speakers both south and eastwards in Africa emerging from the area of present-day Cameroon, and subsequently across the Atlantic by events associated with the ‘Middle Passage’.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ]I don't see how it is contracting?
It's easy to understand. According to the study you posted. The development of sickle cell is
1) Recent 2) Of different geographical and ethnic origin (Senegal, Benin, Bantu) (different mutational events on different chromosome!)
So even if Ancient Egyptians had one version of the sickle disease trait, which I highly doubt. It wouldn't be the same one as the rest of African people. Just another concurrent and independent development of such trait.
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posted
What a clusterfuck of wasting time talking about M89. There have been more discussion about all kinds of bullshit vs the actual data that has been posted. Come on ES. We can do better than that.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What a clusterfuck of wasting time talking about M89. There have been more discussion about all kinds of bullshit vs the actual data that has been posted. Come on ES. We can do better than that.
You are right of course. If there's anybody who can steer the discussion in a new direction it's you since you have access to the full study I think.
There's nothing much I can add except to say I'm extremely happy about the results. It seems the Ancient Egyptian were composed of a wide variety of mainly African lineages (A, B and E) who settled along the Nile after the desertification of the Sahara. It seems to go in line with previous aDNA studies about Kemetians, that is the DNA Tribes study and the study about Ramses III being E1b1a. A bold step for black African people to reclaim their historical heritage. After the publishing of the report, I hope for more aDNA studies,also for more archeological studies to be done in Egypt, Africa and the Ancient Sahara regions. I also hope than in the next few years mainstream egyptology will catch up with those genetic results and other discoveries made in the Nabta Playa sites, Mali, Niger, etc.
I can't wait to see the full study!
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posted
Since you're here Beyoku, maybe you can answer this... I think you already told us those samples are not from royal mummies. But are they from commoners, farmers, important "scribes", etc. What type of tombs do they come from? Is there more info about what location/region those remains come from: Upper/lower Ancient Egypt, Waset, Mennefer, elsewhere, etc? Do some of those remains have names and status in Ancient Egypt or even an history of their accomplishments (Ancient Egyptians like to list their accomplishments, status and the diverse positions they held in the society in their tombs)?
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posted
I dont have the full study. I dont know when the full study will be published. It was assumed to be published this year but the work was cut short due to the political situation in the country.
I CAN say they are not Royal. This could be a snapshot of ONE location or up to 4 locations in the Nile Valley....at this time I cannot say which. This is all the limited data I have.
At this point we dont know if the lineages represent wide spread migration INTO or out of the Nile Valley. I dont wnat to jump the gun. I would assume the E1b1a would be OUT OF. Mainly because the lack of E1a which is a CORE West African Sahelian lineage. I dont know how a CORE lineage like this, from an area that has great pre-historical clout..... could be missing in a migration from the West that included E1b1a. The E2a and the E2 which could be E2b is also up for grabs. These are two very old lineages E2b being widespread. Peaking in Burkina Faso, Cameroon and South Africa. E2a is on the other hand concentrated around the Great Lakes region.
IMO A3b2 is Saharan. And i dont quite know about B2a
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posted
Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No
I say what I mean and I said what I meant.
You however didn't what to look for.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Maybe you meant this other Euronut Cruciani paper ?>
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes
this is my personal experience though I won't give implicit examples because the correspondences were and remain private confidential person-person
PC won't allow 'em to write what they really think and privately discuss among each other
let this one example suffice
I asked if a mistake was made placing Nigeria in NA in one report
the response was due to Fulani I was told despite language and location of Fulani in WA linkage disequilibrium and other data (uncited btw) indicates Fulani are 40-50% NA
no lie
Fulani madness
Like Hassan's Fulani Madness in using Fulani in E Afr nrY to say Fulani are separate different special than "the Negroes" all the while he and all the others avoid the halPulaaren homeland Futa Toro never using them in any studies nowhere in print that I can find.
Hamiticism is alive and well underground waiting to boldly resurface by any name old or new
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Just as in Hamiticism emphasis is placed on North Africa(ns) as separate and unrelated to the rest of Africa(ns) also in the background macroHg E is proposed as a back migration
Don't know what the balance is among researchers, ie, the amount of people who secretly subscribe to this view and who don't. I would like to say they are only a small minority, but some details may point to the opposite. Some researchers are literally two faced snakes, in that they say one thing in their papers, but come out saying the opposite in their private conversations with you. Charlie Bass already posted his email correspondences with Kanya Godde, who apparently thinks, in private, that Nubians are unrelated to Sub-Saharan Africans and derive from separate Homo Erectus archaics. When you contrast these private held views with what she publishes and whom she quotes in the introduction sections of her papers, to sum up past research on the matter (Keita among others), you get a totally different picture.
I'm also right now talking to someone in private about an Egyptologist who has written several books, which seemingly cite data that support Egypto-Nubian relationships, but in this Egyptologists' private conversation with the person I'm talking to, the floodgates of Eurocentrism open up every time this Egyptologist writes back. You're right on the money that some of these people are not who they're publicly making themselves out to be.
Before I conclude this post, look at this:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
look at this:
quote:To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA (U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal (E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).
These people don't even make it a secret that they're straight up counting E-M81 and E-M78 as Eurasian lineages.
Yes
the corollary to Hamiticism is Caucasian NE Africa despite NE Africa is not nor even near the Caucasus
I was exposed to this by what was available in the 70s particularly YY benJochannan as in the map below
This is what informs academia and remains in the background behind academicians minds
that arrow from the Great Lakes northward to Nile AP NA and Europe is where similar arrows in geneticists' reports trace their pedigree
don't like to dwell on this kind of thing but from time to time it demands a look see
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
What???
Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
where is the mention of E ?
They are talking a lot about the Fulbe in Cameroon
Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214. Published online 2002 March 21. PMCID: PMC447595 A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
Yes, this Cruciani study is referring to the back migration in Africa of F descendant haplogroup like R1b. Which of course is true. Any F descendent haplogroups in Africa are the product of a back migration. No link with Hamiticism. Obviously this is a good thing, we don't want humans or Africans to be genetically isolated from one another too much. A diversity of DNA is a good thing for the survival of any population.
For egyptologist, there's indeed many people still refuting the black African origin of Ancient Egyptians. That's why we're happy about the study results posted by Beyoku. Study like the one posted by Beyoku when it will be published, the results of Ramses III analysis and future aDNA analysis of Kemites remains, as well as archeological works like the one done near Nabta Playa in the sahara desert will change things slowly but surely. There's no way around it.
That was not at all the material I refer to
Since u r just as w/o a clue as the Lioness, I'll give the quote
An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.
Again
Cruciani refutes E back migration he doesn't refute that some uphold E back migration.
Cruciani listed a few proponents of E back migration in an old report. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
There are still proponents of that old opinion.
That's all I'm saying.
There will always be academic bias against "the Negro" subtle and overt
The more things change the more they remain the same that's why
aluta continua
While I'm at it R in Cameroon is not Fulbe but Ouldeme et al ttbomk
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posted
Amun Ra says: The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence.
Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated or distorted just like any other. How often has sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies. As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:
Together or separately they confirm that as one scholar says:
"must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." --Nancy C. Lovell, "Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332) [/i]
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
OK sorry for calling you clueless
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
yes but notice several posts back in a separte paper also by Cruciani he discuses E3b (M35)
Ok, and what does he say about E3b that are relevant to this thread? I don't see by looking at your post what Tukuler would find interesting in that study. All the contrary, it says: Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001] Which is of course true.
read the whole think at the link if you feel like it. I was assuming it is what Tukuler was talking about. Maybe I didn't excerpt the relevant parts, didn't look at it super closely yet, wait until Tukuler shows up maybe he will have more to say about it
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
I don't think Ancient Egypt is a "pan African" civilization the sense that some build it up to be- as if it was some sort of "central headquarters" for civilization in Africa. Africa doesn't need any "central headquarters". The genesis, the source is on the bio-historical ground level- the Sahara and other regions. These are "the groundings"...
RECAP FROM OLD THREAD
Conservative mainstream Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt slams diffusionism of 'Afrocentrists' - shows ancient Egypt derived from an African cultural sub-stratum
[QUOTE:]
"The evidence also points to linkages to other northeast African peoples, not coincidentally approximating the modern range of languages closely related to Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group (formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These linguistic similarities place ancient Egyptian in a close relationship with languages spoken today as far west as Chad, and as far south as Somalia. Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization (rather than diffusion from sub-Saharan Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric scholars.)"
Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Some have argued that that African-Americans Should not “interfere” with Nile Valley history, and have “no connection” to said history, and self-styled “concerned” Egyptians, both bogus and real sometimes put in an apparent appearance to lecture said ‘African Americans.” or “Black Americans.” But if the conservative mainstream reference itself shows that numerous ancient Egyptian cultural links and similarities to other parts of “Black Africa”, including MODERN African cultures, how come African Americans are supposed to sit quietly and say nothing?
“African Americans" are not obsessively tracing their history back to Egypt as alleged by assorted blowhards and pundits. They don't need to any such tracing, nor do they need "permission" from self-styled Arab nativists, alleged "Egyptian" natives/nativists, Egypto-Arabs, or white people to study and comment on Egypt.
The Sahara was once a lush greenbelt extending across one-third of Africa, allowing the easy movement of peoples. Its climatic cycles - the famous Saharan "pump" - was to create conditions for the movement of peoples into the Nile Valley, the Sahelian zone and elsewhere. But it remains the foundation.
Informed African-Americans thus do not conceive of Egypt as being created out of thin air. Nor do they rely on the truism that "Egypt is in Africa." They begin at the Saharan zone, which provided the main source for the peopling of the Nile Valley, and laid the foundation, and was the genesis of the Nile Valley Civilization, and also was the genesis of the West African kingdoms adjoining it. The Sahara is the linking pin- the motor of Africa's bio-cultural evolution. This is where "African Americans" start.
The eternal Sahara is the key, the starting point, the genesis, the fundamental force. Egypt follows AFTER and derives from that broad Saharan foundation, not before. So do the civilizations of Western Africa. There is no need to seek "inspiration" from latecomers like Rameses or Cleopatra. The "inspiration" springs from the starting point, the African cultures that gave rise to the Egyptian dynastic civilization. It is from that genesis, that launching point, that other developments are appreciated, in all their cIt ontinuity.
Pyramids do not have to appear in Nigeria to recognize the fundamental substratum of African cultures from Jos to Memphis, just as temples to Apollo do not need to appear in Sweden for Swedes to acknowledge the fundamental Indo-European cultural strands uniting Greeks and Swedes. The hypocritical double standard that has no problem with Greeks worshipping Egyptian gods in temples dedicated to them, yet suddenly finds a "problem" when African kingship patterns from far south (jubilees, rainmaker, regicide etc) or African religous influces from south (numerous animal deities, i.e. panther gods, grass skirts and regalia) appear both in Egypt and other African areas to the south, speaks volumes as to the real racist motivation of those who want to whitewash Egypt out of African context.
The final exposure of white or Egypto-Arab proxy hypocrisy is demostrated by the Nubians. The people closest to the ancient Etyptians are the Nubians, not white Europeans, not "Middle Easterners." But the hypocrites have a problem with Nubians 300 miles away from Egypt, but no problem with saying Swedes and Greeks thousands of miles apart re all Europran. The former somehow can;t be African, but the latter is waved in as European. Such is white hypocrisy.
[Quote by another conservative mainstream scholar:]
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
The Sahara was also a key player in the great West African civilizations that were to arise as well- Mali, Ghana, Timbuktu etc., ranging from the Saharan trade, to the transmission of knowledge, to the transmission of new methods and technologies.
The Sahara is the great linking pin and transmission belt culturally. It is also the great climate and environmental motor that shaped one-third of Africa. As one study notes:
From: Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa's Evolution by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin*
”Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E. Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day.”
Informed African Americans place Egypt in its proper context as a tropical civilization. They don’t begin any exploration of African civilizations with Egypt, they start with AFRICA ITSELF, from which the genesis, the foundational elements sprung, that provided the basis or substratum for that civilization. The Sahara is one such central foundational element. It is in that broad Saharan zone for example that the ancients created theih huge megaliths of stone, and designed calendars and other astonomical alignments. It is from that broad zone that the cattle cults of NE Africa developed- cults that were to figure so prominently in Egyptian religion. It is from the African genesis that other concepts such as divine kingship, and the art iconography of Egypt developed. It is from the Saharan zone (which extends well into the Sudan) that patterns of technology in pottery, toolmaking, mummification, and numerous other influences emerged that were to distinguish ancient Egypt. ANy "inspiration" taken by African-American begins with a foundation based on the ground, in Africa.
There are other “African Americans” who look even further back than the Saharan mix mentioned above. They look back to the dawn of modern humanity, which emerged from “sub-Saharan” Africa, then proceeded to Northeast Africa, (also "sub Saharan" by the way), and from there to the rest of the globe by various exit routes. Again, the starting point for any discussion remains AFRICA itself.
[quote]: “These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. ... populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999)." [Tishkoff et al. (2000) Short Tandem-Repeat Polymorphism.. Am J Hum Genet; 67:901-925]
African-Americans thus don't need anyone to tell them how they "should" think about Egypt, the Nile Valley, the Sahara or any other part of Africa, nor do they need "clearance" or "approval" from would be, reputed or alleged "concerned Egyptians" or presumptuous white or Arab lecturers to place Egypt in its scientifically documented African context.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
That is one of my point. When I said the results look funky. The data is like kumbaya African....
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Amun Ra says: The analysis of aDNA posted by Beyoku, as well as DNA Tribes and Ramses III being E1b1a and future aDNA study are much more solid bases to analyze the Ancient Egyptian origin and ethnicity than assumption based on peripheral evidence.
Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated or distorted just like any other. How often has sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies. As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:
Together or separately they confirm that as one scholar says:
"must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." --Nancy C. Lovell, "Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332) [/i]
Of course I agree with you. The Ancient Egyptian African origin, ethnicity, culture, history, characteristics must be studied with a multidisciplinary approach. Even if aDNA genetic is something very solid in term of identifying which lineages it sprung from. I just disagreed about the use of the sickle cell traits as a proof that Ancient Egyptian are related to other black Africans. I think I made of good job at explaining why above. The sickle cell traits have been proven to appear concurrently in different African populations (as well as elsewhere in the world). That is different mutational events on different chromosome! So.
I agree about the multidisciplinary approach, but by using obviously wrong argumentation it only undermine what we try to prove/demonstrate in the first place. Maybe the expression "peripheral evidence" is a bad choice of word, I should have said 'wrong evidence' instead but I didn't' want to sound too confrontational.
It's like on the other site. There was some very interesting poster who tried unfortunately to use the rock formation in Niger (iirc) that looked like a pyramid as a proof of the cultural link between black Africans and Ancient Egyptians. Those link exist and there's many argumentation for it. But this specific argumentation was wrong because those "pyramid" were determined to be only rock formation dating something like 100 000 years ago (i don't remember the exact dating). Using those rock formations that look like pyramid as a proof that Ancient Egyptian and black Africans from Niger are related is wrong. It's just wrong. Even if, as you know, I believe strongly that it is the case. I believe strongly than ancient people from the Niger (during the green sahara period) are linked with Ancient Egyptians. I made a whole thread about it on this forum. I often talk about the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilization. The oldest pottery in Africa is found in Mali. Mummification pre-dating Ancient Egypt can be found in southern Libya. The burial tumulus tradition of the ancient Saharans combined with the use of megalith (like in Nabta Playa) can be a considered a prelude to the creation of pyramid (I didn't post about it yet on this forum, I will do it in the future), there's many cultural and religious linkage with people from the Green Sahara period (the wavy line pottery civilization) like in Mali and Niger with Ancient Egyptians, etc etc etc etc. All those proof were found despite the dearth of archeological works undertaken in the Saharan desert and Africa in general. It's just that the pyramid-like rock formation and the sickle cell thing are wrong argumentations that only undermine the whole issue because they are obviously wrong. Same thing with trying to steal other people's haplogroup like F descendant haplogroup While there's a lot of other solid argumentation linking people from the Sahara as far as the Atlantic coast (especially southern Mali, Niger, and the western Egyptian desert) with people from the Nile Valley.
I'm not destroying those wrong argumentation because I want to undermine the issue. Nor because i'm looking for a fight. All the contrary. I want to make the argumentation stronger by eliminating obviously wrong mistake and error (like those pyramid thing or that sickle cell thing or the ridiculous claim about the African origin of foreign haplogroups) which then undermine the credibility of the whole issue!! I hope Tukuler, you and others understand when I do that. If you see my thread about the peopling of the Sahara during the Green Sahara period. You can see, I'm a strong proponent of the linkage between so-called sub-Saharan Africans and Ancient Egypt. Obviously the study results posted by Beyoku about the aDNA of Ancient Kemetian remains got me very happy. Those results combined with other multidisciplinary proof and other aDNA studies like the DNA Tribes results and Ramses III being E1b1a is practically the ultimate confirmation of it all. I think even mainstream egyptology won't be able to avoid the issue (or talk about it quickly as sometimes they do now, almost as a side note like when they say "while there's some cultural and religious similarities between sub-saharans Africans and Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Egyptians are mostly blablabla").
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: What a clusterfuck of wasting time talking about M89. There have been more discussion about all kinds of bullshit vs the actual data that has been posted. Come on ES. We can do better than that.
You are right of course. If there's anybody who can steer the discussion in a new direction it's you since you have access to the full study I think.
There's nothing much I can add except to say I'm extremely happy about the results. It seems the Ancient Egyptian were composed of a wide variety of mainly African lineages (A, B and E) who settled along the Nile after the desertification of the Sahara. It seems to go in line with previous aDNA studies about Kemetians, that is the DNA Tribes study and the study about Ramses III being E1b1a. A bold step for black African people to reclaim their historical heritage. After the publishing of the report, I hope for more aDNA studies,also for more archeological studies to be done in Egypt, Africa and the Ancient Sahara regions. I also hope than in the next few years mainstream egyptology will catch up with those genetic results and other discoveries made in the Nabta Playa sites, Mali, Niger, etc.
I can't wait to see the full study!
Of course all of us are glade to see these results even thou it's in premature fashion. No discussion about that.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Sickle Cell in Egypt has so far been shown to be exclusively of the Benin variety. No reason to believe this would have been different in ancient times. Indeed, the distribution of the Benin haplotype closely matches the path mtDNA L1b1a8, l2a1k and NRY E-M78 carrying Nile Valley groups would have traversed in the Middle East and Eastern Europe in the Epi-Palaeolithic.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Sickle Cell in Egypt has so far been shown to be exclusively of the Benin variety. No reason to believe this would have been different in ancient times. Indeed, the distribution of the Benin haplotype closely matches the path mtDNA L1b1a8, l2a1k and NRY E-M78 carrying Nile Valley groups would have traversed in the Middle East and Eastern Europe in the Epi-Palaeolithic.
I will admit, as I said above, that I didn't study the situation about the sickle cell very much and go with what was posted in this thread (and the other study I read because of it). According to the study posted by Troll, the Benin variety (as any other variety for that matter) is said to be relatively recent. What I understood by this is that the chromosome mutation responsible for the sickle cell is a relatively recent development (the study even talk about the importance of the Malaria as a major disease in Africa to also be relatively recent).
quote:Our results suggest that the sickle cell gene may have been preferentially introduced through males of migrating west African tribes (Figure 1), particularly Hausa-Fulani, and Bagara in the large migrations that began in the eighteenth century and escalated during the nineteenth and early twentieth century . The estimates of a recent figure of 1–3 generations for the introduction of the gene and associated haplotypes to eastern Sahel, is consistent with demography during the past 100 years and with a hypothesis of a recent origin of malaria as a major human infection
The other study, I quoted in the above post talks about the "caravan" route in the desert responsible for the distribution of the gene in Northern Africa (that is the Benin variety in Northern Africa and Europe). Thus something relatively recent. Did other studies (or those studies if I misread things)are compatible with such an ancient date (as far back as New Kingdom time) for the development of the sickle cell mutation? If they call it the Benin variety doesn't it means that it started in Benin then was transferred to Northern Africa and the rest of Africa? Thus the origin of the mutation, that is the the first human to have that specific mutation was in Benin? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just curious about it.
Don't get me wrong, it would be nice if it wasn't recent. It would maybe mean that there's a gene transfer from Benin (West Africa) to North Africa, Europe and Ancient Egypt in ancient time (or vice versa if it started in Kemet or around it). But the studies quoted seem to talk about a much more recent time for the timing of the expansion of the Benin gene variety into northern Africa and elsewhere.
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Linguistics also. Even geography plays a very important part.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated or distorted just like any other. How often has sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies. As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:
posted
I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just making inferences. I'm well aware that many researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively recent disease, but I've seen no molecular specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent internal lesions keep cropping up in both dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the authors themselves admit that the estimated haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya, respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From this expansive region both lineages expanded to North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012
--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).
--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern) Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian versions:
quote:If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon, Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are *no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan, which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an African/Jewish overlap.
The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated with E-M78.
--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3 or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic associated lineages have been found been found. In all implied regions, namely, West/Central Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South- Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is always the Benin one.
Coincidence? I think not.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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While I'm at it R in Cameroon is not Fulbe but Ouldeme et al ttbomk
R1b (from YDNA Chart page 2 of this thread)
Ouldeme (Chadic) 99.5% North Cameroon (Chadic) 70.4 Fulbe (Sudan) 53.8 Hausa (Sudan) 40.6 South African whites 51.6 Tuareg Niger 33.3
What do you think the origin of R1b is? I know most reearch suggest a Western Asian origin but are there some articles that argue African origin? I don't know
So, when are you going to show the distribution of V88 and U5 amongst the Fulbe?
(I don't know why you are asking me about this we already discuessed it in U6 pt2 and Genomic Ancestry threads
The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool of Berber Populations
C. Coudray1∗ 2008'
" Eurasian U macrohaplogroup is subdivided into U1 to U9 (with the exception of U6 restricted to North Africa) and K lineages. U has an extremely broad geographical distribution and accounts for about 20% of European mtDNA sequences (Herrnstadt et al. 2002). In this study, it is represented by four haplogroups: U2, U3, U4 and U5. U2 can be found at low frequencies in populations of western Asia and the Caucasus. Here, it was observed only in the Berbers from Bouhria, by two subclades, U2b (1 sequence) and U2e (2 sequences). U3 is observed at 1.1% (U3a) and 1.3% (U3) in samples from Figuig and Siwa, respectively. This haplogroup has a frequency peak in the Near East (Achilli et al. 2007). U4 haplogroup is spread at moderate frequencies all over Europe, western Siberia, and southwestern Asia (Richards et al. 2000). Only one sequence from Bouhria belongs to U4. U5, one of the most ancient subhaplogroup of U, occurs in most cases as occasional haplotypes that are derived from European lineages (Achilli et al. 2005; Richards et al. 2000). In 16.7% of Siwi samples, it appears as U5b, a lineage suggesting back-migration of people from Europe to the South (Torroni et al. 2006). One Berber from Asni also bears this sequence......
genetic ex- changes could have taken place during prehistory, while Eu- ropean populations retreated from ice sheets and expanded from refuge, around 15,000 years ago (as evidenced by the H and U5b mitochondrial lineages). Alternatively, these ex- changes could have occurred during history, with the invasion and the occupation during nearly seven centuries (from the 8th to the 15th century) of the Iberian Peninsula by Almora- vide then Almohade Muslim Berber troops."
Saami and Berbers--an unexpected mitochondrial DNA link.
Am J Hum Genet.
It is striking that the sequence divergence of U5b1b, the subclade encompassing mtDNAs from the Saami, Yakut, Berbers, and Fulbe, was 1.7 ± 0.5 substitutions, thus corresponding to only 8.6 ± 2.4 ky.....
Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ~15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I read somewhere in a source once, that Vikings took slaves to Northwest Africa as well. Guess who those were? Saami. Yes, Saami.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just making inferences. I'm well aware that many researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively recent disease, but I've seen no molecular specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent internal lesions keep cropping up in both dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the authors themselves admit that the estimated haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya, respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From this expansive region both lineages expanded to North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012
--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).
--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern) Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian versions:
quote:If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon, Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are *no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan, which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an African/Jewish overlap.
The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated with E-M78.
--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3 or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic associated lineages have been found been found. In all implied regions, namely, West/Central Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South- Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is always the Benin one.
Coincidence? I think not.
Interesting post. You sure make a good case. Although a coincidence is possible because humans often tend to use similar migration route even during different migration events separated in time. Especially when you consider that the sickle cell mutation is said to be relatively recent.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Again, I may very well be wrong about the overlap between the Epi-Palaeolithic coalescing haplogroups and Benin HbS in Eurasia (a much weaker, but competing case can be made for the idea that these Benin HbS cases are exclusively associated with later, more recent mtDNA L type associated migrations), but one thing I'm not wrong in is that SC is an ancient condition. Pred. mummies with SC characteristics in their bone and skin tissue have already been confirmed to be HbS positive! The only thing that hasn't conclusively been proven is whether these ancient SC cases are of the Benin type, but this is implied due to the overwhelming, almost exclusive share of Benin HbS in modern Egypt.
quote:We conducted a molecular investigation of the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin. Previous studies of these remains showed the presence of severe anemia, while histological preparations of mummified tissues revealed hemolytic disorders. DNA was extracted from dental samples with a silica-gel method specific for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), called amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide mutations. In this method, amplification can occur only in the presence of the specific mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three individuals, there was a band at the level of the HbS mutated fragment, indicating that they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of our results, we discuss the possible uses of new molecular investigation systems in paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.
On the basis of a sample of 117 chromosomes, we have demonstrated the multicentric origin of the sickle mutation in Northern Oman. Three major haplotypes coexist: 52.1% Benin (typical and atypicals), 26.7% Arab-India, and 21.4% Bantu. These haplotypes are not autochthonous to Oman but originated elsewhere and arrived in Oman by gene flow. The distribution of haplotypes is in excellent agreement with the historical record, which establishes clear ancient contacts between Oman and sub-Sahara west Africa and explains the presence of the Benin haplotype; contacts with Iraq, Iran, present-day Pakistan, and India explain the presence of the Arab-India haplotype. More recent contacts with East Africa (Zanzibar/Mombasa) explain the presence of the Bantu haplotype. The pattern of the Arab-India haplotype in the populations of the Arabian peninsula reinforces the hypothesis that this particular mutation originated in the Harappa culture or in a nearby population and in addition reveals that the Sassanian Empire might have been the vehicle by which this Indo-European sickle mutation migrated (gene flow) to the present-day Arabian peninsula, including Oman.[/QB]
There is absolutely no reason why Benin HbS should exceed Bantu HbS in frequency, or indeed, even be present in noteworthy freqs, if, as you say, HbS has a recent origin. The Zanj slaves that were imported to Arabia in Medieval times would logically be primarily associated with Bantu HbS, not Benin HbS. How can Benin HbS in Oman, to the tune of 52%, be explained in the scenario that it originated only recently?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just making inferences. I'm well aware that many researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively recent disease, but I've seen no molecular specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent internal lesions keep cropping up in both dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the authors themselves admit that the estimated haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya, respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From this expansive region both lineages expanded to North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012
--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).
--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern) Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian versions:
quote:If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon, Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are *no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan, which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an African/Jewish overlap.
The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated with E-M78.
--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3 or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic associated lineages have been found been found. In all implied regions, namely, West/Central Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South- Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is always the Benin one.
Coincidence? I think not.
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
posted
SC was spread to South and West Asia by Sumerian,Dravidian and other Niger-Congo speakers 5kya. The Benin and Senegal HbS probably originated in the Saharan Highlands and Nubia the original homeland of the Niger-Congo people.
See:
C. Winters, Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians http://www.soeagra.com/abr/vol2/12.pdf
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The Dravidian people share cultural and linguistic features with Africans [10-14]. The archaeological evidence suggest that the Dravidian people belonged to the C-Group people of Nubia and migrated to India 5kya [9,10-11]. The Dravidian origination in Nubia, the original home of the Niger-Congo speakers who carry the Benin and Senegal HbS would explain the existence of African HbS haplotypes in India. These haplotypes in India suggest that they already existed among Dravidian and Niger-Congo speaking populations before they separated 5kya.
The HbS chromosome haplotypes of the Indian Tribals were Arab-Indian with 25% of the haplotypes possessing the epsilon polymorphic site identical to the Senegal6b. The Senegal and Indian sickle cell share haplotypes [8]. The Arab-Indian and Senegal haplotypes share the C!T mutation at position -158 4,7.
In India the Benin HbS is the most common haplotype in western India. To account for the presence of this haplotype in India researchers argue that African slaves took this gene to India. There are problems with this theory. The major problem with the slave trade solution for the transmission of the Benin haplotype to India, is that the African slaves in India are mainly of Somali- Ethiopian origin—not West African origin .
C. Winters, Advantageous Alleles, Parallel Adaptation, Geographic Location and Sickle Cell Anemia among Africans and Indians http://www.soeagra.com/abr/vol2/12.pdf
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That is one of my point. When I said the results look funky. The data is like kumbaya African....
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
Not really though. You may see a lot of different lineages maybe because you are unfamiliar with the lineages. The Eurasian ones aside. Nearly all the lineages in question can be explained by looking at only a few ancestral groups - The ancestors of Proto Afroasitcs from the Horn of Africa, Ancestors of Nilo-Saharans and the affinity with West Africans via the Sahel / Chad Basin.
Most of this modern diversity can be found in Siwa Egyptians.
The only thing the dont have is a3b2 and E2.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Linguistics also. Even geography plays a very important part.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Patrol and most ES vets do not analyze Ancient Egyptian origin solely on one line of evidence, nor is DNA the last word in any analysis. DNA is just another line of evidence that has to be confirmed and balanced against others. DNA evidence can be manipulated or distorted just like any other. How often has sampling been manipulated for example in Nile Valley studies. As S.O.Y Keita himself recommends on one of the Cambridge videos- there is a need for multiple lines of data- including:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] Again, I may very well be wrong about the overlap between the Epi-Palaeolithic coalescing haplogroups and Benin HbS in Eurasia (a much weaker, but competing case can be made for the idea that these Benin HbS cases are exclusively associated with later, more recent mtDNA L type associated migrations), but one thing I'm not wrong in is that SC is an ancient condition. Pred. mummies with SC characteristics in their bone and skin tissue have already been confirmed to be HbS positive! The only thing that hasn't conclusively been proven is whether these ancient SC cases are of the Benin type, but this is implied due to the overwhelming, almost exclusive share of Benin HbS in modern Egypt.
quote:We conducted a molecular investigation of the presence of sicklemia in six predynastic Egyptian mummies (about 3200 BC) from the Anthropological and Ethnographic Museum of Turin. Previous studies of these remains showed the presence of severe anemia, while histological preparations of mummified tissues revealed hemolytic disorders. DNA was extracted from dental samples with a silica-gel method specific for ancient DNA. A modification of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR), called amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) was then applied. ARMS is based on specific priming of the PCR and it permits diagnosis of single nucleotide mutations. In this method, amplification can occur only in the presence of the specific mutation being studied. The amplified DNA was analyzed by electrophoresis. In samples of three individuals, there was a band at the level of the HbS mutated fragment, indicating that they were affected by sicklemia. On the basis of our results, we discuss the possible uses of new molecular investigation systems in paleopathological diagnoses of genetic diseases and viral, bacterial and fungal infections.
The Marin et al 1999 study that I didn't knew about changes everything. I don't like to use modern population as prototype for ancient population so for me, as you say, it's all about determining if the Hbs gene in Ancient Egyptian remains was the Benin variety or another isolated mutation (on a different chromosome).
Maybe it's because we don't have access to the full study. But what I don't understand is how can we not know which variety of the Hbs gene was in Ancient Egyptian mummies? Since the differnt varieties are on different location (and chromosome apparently) on the DNA, the Marin study, which have been able to find the Hbs gene in Ancient Egyptian remains, must know which chromosome (or location in general) the Hbs gene of Ancient Egyptian remains have. Doesn't it? They found it, they know it.
Is it possible to detect the Hbs gene (not the trait but the gene) and not know which variety it is?
quote: Note also: There is absolutely no reason why Benin HbS should exceed Bantu HbS in frequency, or indeed, even be present in noteworthy freqs, if, as you say, HbS has a recent origin. The Zanj slaves that were imported to Arabia in Medieval times would logically be primarily associated with Bantu HbS, not Benin HbS. How can Benin HbS in Oman, to the tune of 52%, be explained in the scenario that it originated only recently?
I now beginning to believe the great possibility of Ancient Egyptian and so-called sub-saharan African sharing the sickle cell gene (and not just the traits, which have been shown to sprung in different independent location). And thus the Benin variety to be really ancient and having been brought to Ancient Egypt in ancient time. I don't know much about the Zanj (beside reading a bit about the rebellion and the unrelated Zanzibar revolution). But just to play the devil's advocate here, I can say that it's possible that the Oman Benin sickle cell variety was brought relatively recently by a different circumstances than the Zanj. Since the sickle cell gene (contrary to most haplotype, I would say) has a strong selective pressure. It doesn't take that much introduction of the Hbs sickle cell gene to any location for it to then become highly prevalent. People who don't have it, simply die of malaria in a region strongly touched by that disease. So, it's easy to reach 52% of the population rather quickly because of the strong selective pressure of the Hbs gene. Obviously, the Benin variety may as well have been brought in ancient time in that region.
Although what I am more curious about, as I said before, is to have access to the Marin study to see what variety of the sickle cell gene the Ancient Kemetian remains had.
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Exciting revelation! Will have to stay tuned. Shot out to Beyoku for sharing.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Credit actually goes to beyoku for presenting this to everyone. And also credit to Firewall for actually PMing me this in the first place.
Anyways...This is really interesting and the fight for an African Ancient Egypt is starting to come to a close..
quote: OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Anglo Pyramidologist appears on the thread as "Book Gremlin'
I try to post on that site but half of my posts get moderated out. Can you believe it? The contents of my posts are similar to the ones on this thread.
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posted
^^^Agreed. Thats what I hate about Biodiversity site...The mods have to review your post in order for them to get posted. To make matters worse not only are ALL the mods Eurocentrics bu full blown RACISTS!!!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Anglo Pyramidologist appears on the thread as "Book Gremlin'
I try to post on that site but half of my posts get moderated out. Can you believe it? The contents of my posts are similar to the ones on this thread.
I'm banned. I had some Egypt and anti-Nazi stuff up and member 'toilet man' snitched on me Perhaps beyoku has the technique down for avoiding being banned while posting counter-Eurocentric information. Did his alias 'four' get banned? zarahan used to be a member. He pretended to be a white supremacist but then flipped the script (but they got rid of him quick) The site is owned by white supremacist 'Racial Reality" who has a separate website also. Neverthless it has many posters and there are mant interesting posts on Africa there. Anglo Pyramidologist had been banned under different names because he was questioning moderator Crimson Guard's white supremacy credentials but now appears as Book Gremlin.
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