posted
That site is no worse than the nonsense that goes on here. If you got banned i would guess what they thought was duplicate accounts or something. WHo knows.
I know that it is not wise to just hop on a forum blasting facts without a proper evaluation of what the board already knows. You have to wade in and swim....you just cannot flood the board with comments.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: That site is no worse than the nonsense that goes on here. If you got banned i would guess what they thought was duplicate accounts or something. WHo knows.
I know that it is not wise to just hop on a forum blasting facts without a proper evaluation of what the board already knows. You have to wade in and swim....you just cannot flood the board with comments.
Forum Biodiversity aka anthroscape is completely different from Egyptsearch because it is moderated and the moderators take action (according to their particular f-upped bias) . Egyptsearch is nearly completely unmoderated and you can say absolutely anything. Neither site has it right
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^ I guess I can't force people to avoid enunciating fringe theory born on the ES forum. IMO, it does a disservice to African history. For example, there's no need to try to "steal" haplogroups origin from other people. The Beyoku post being a case in point. Ancient Egyptians being mostly African derived haplogroups like A, B and E. Ramses III being E1b1a as well as the DNA Tribes results are other cases in point. Ancient Egyptians were fully black Africans (aka like modern so-called sub-saharan Africans). No need for fringe theory for this.
While everybody can enunciate fringe theory, as I said above, it's anybody's right, I think it does a disservice to African history. It makes the whole black African origin of Ancient Egyptian look extremely fringe when in reality it is (now) completely confirmed by modern genetic analysis of aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains.
This is one of the most "mainstream" geneticists way to view the haplogroups origin situation:
We don't even need to state fringe theory about haplogroups origin. Ancient Egyptians were mostly from the A, B, E descendant haplogroups which are usually considered African in origin (aka not the product of a back migration from Eurasia).
I don't understand what you mean by "fringe theory". There is nothing "fringe" about speculating whether certain clades truly were of African origin since their postulated 'Near-Eastern' origins are rather close to the African continent and that some early derivatives if not original upstream markers of that clade are found on the African continent as well. This is what I'm getting at! You're right about certain clades may be quintessentially African such but that doesn't mean it is somehow fringe to question the Eurasian identity of some clades. This doesn't mean I don't accept any scenarios of back-migrations as there was nothing to stop Eurasians from migrating back to Africa, however like Keita I tend to be cautious since migrations back-and-forth between Africa and Southwest Asia a.k.a. the 'Near East' seemed to have been continuous.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: It doesn't matter if IJ is African
the presence of J1 and J2 in North Africa is due to the spread of Islam 7-8th century AD
not IJ tens of thousands of years ago
Okay, but what does this have to do with the DNA results of the (Ancient) Egyptian remains?
If I didn't know any better I'd say you are trying to compensate for the lack of 'mixing' in ancient times with mixing in more recent times. So modern North Africans are mixed and have been since the end of the 1st millennium. So what? Apparently Europeans have been mixed since the mesolithic. Your point?
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Anglo Pyramidologist appears on the thread as "Book Gremlin'
I try to post on that site but half of my posts get moderated out. Can you believe it? The contents of my posts are similar to the ones on this thread.
I'm banned. I had some Egypt and anti-Nazi stuff up and member 'toilet man' snitched on me Perhaps beyoku has the technique down for avoiding being banned while posting counter-Eurocentric information. Did his alias 'four' get banned? zarahan used to be a member. He pretended to be a white supremacist but then flipped the script (but they got rid of him quick) The site is owned by white supremacist 'Racial Reality" who has a separate website also. Neverthless it has many posters and there are mant interesting posts on Africa there. Anglo Pyramidologist had been banned under different names because he was questioning moderator Crimson Guard's white supremacy credentials but now appears as Book Gremlin.
Interesting, the owner of "Racial Reality", and equivalent websites, is an Italian.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Troll Patrol your P.M. is full,could you clear it up? I have a question to ask you. Thanks.
Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: If you got banned i would guess what they thought was duplicate accounts or something. WHo knows.
I know that it is not wise to just hop on a forum blasting facts without a proper evaluation of what the board already knows. You have to wade in and swim....you just cannot flood the board with comments.
Thanks for the advice but you're friends at the biodiversity forum just locked your thread because of your posts apparently. LOL
I guess the whole thread was too much to take for those people (or that person). Ancient Kemetians remains determined to be mainly African haplotypes like A, B and E. Added to other aDNA analysis like the DNA tribes results on the 18th and 20th dynasty royal mummies (autosomal STR) and the result about Ramses III being E1b1a. = Gasket blown. Diop would be happy to see the development of the situation.
Diop we remember! It was a long and harduous road for Africans to reclaim their historical heritage, but now more and more evidences (archeological, linguistic, genetics) proves we were right all along. At one time, they said Ancient Egyptians were Africans only religiously and culturally. Now genetics confirm the whole package.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
Wow!!! The racist mods on Forumbiodiversity just locked the thread. LOL! This is why I don't fucks with Forumbiodiversity.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
They probably thought he was making shyte up. ....you know...just a table with no proof. Not saying they are not ostriches....
He probably needs to repeat. ...."pikes and eels"
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: They probably thought he was making shyte up. ....you know...just a table with no proof. Not saying they are not ostriches....
He probably needs to repeat. ...."pikes and eels"
They wouldn't have locked the thread if it was full of non-African haplotypes (R, J, etc). Beyoku is a respected poster there, while anything is possible it's unlikely he lied to us about that study preview (he's more like an uncle tom kind of poster, no offense). Of course, we're all waiting for the real study to come out, but it's a good discussion topic as any. Especially since there's not a lot of other discussions going on in that egyptology forum.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
The moderator is trying real hard to disguise the real reason for locking this thread as somehow due to the undisclosed source(s), but he's obviously lying because he's not simultaneously saying that IF these results are really from a temporarily shelved paper, he was wrong all along for his past claims. Instead, he is lying about the supposed need for autosomal DNA. Of course uniparental lineages don't effectively gauge genome-wide admixture, but, potential minor discrepancies aside, they cannot contradict or be wholly overturned by the picture painted by such analysis either. That's unprecedented and unheard of.
He wants to act like these STR profiles are nothing out of the ordinary, but offers no explanation as to why modern Egyptians fail to give the same STR results as the ancient royals. Nope nothing wrong here. Of course my position hasn't just been nuked by the alarming fact that royal remains are several times closer to African populations than modern Egyptians. That means nothing! Just wait until SNP genome-wide analysis does what has never been done before... totally overturn STR analysis.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: , he is lying about the supposed need for autosomal DNA.
In fact, DNA Tribes already inputed the autosomal STR value of the 18th and 20th Dynasty royal mummies in their population database and the results were African all the same. No match to modern Egyptians, modern North Africans, modern Berbers, Levantine, Europeans and what not. Only African groups (Great Lakes, Southern, Western African primarily). While the DNA Tribes population database (of STR value) is commercial, it's hard to believe it would be far off. And this study as well as the other study about Ramses III being E1b1a confirm the DNA Tribes results.
Here's a passage from the DNA Tribes study about the 20th Dynasty royal mummies:
quote:Specifically, both of these ancient individuals inherited the alleles D21S11=35 and CSFIPO=7, which are found throughout Sub-Saharan Africa but are comparatively rare or absent in other regions of the world . These African related alleles are different from the African related alleles identified for the previously studied Amarna period mummies (D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).11 This provides independent evidence for African autosomal ancestry in two different pharaonic families of New Kingdom Egypt.
posted
^^^Agreed.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Can't discount the fact that some of the individual allele values show up outside Africa and at higher freqs (even true for a few loci pairs)
And no this doesn't, nor is supposed to, overturn the fact of African primacy in the samples overall or their similarity to current African regions/ethnies.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] Beyoku is a respected poster there, while anything is possible it's unlikely he lied to us about that study preview (he's more like an uncle tom kind of poster, no offense).
I have been called many things, Never that. My posting history on that site....as well as this one almost always revolve around posting Published studies on Africana for the people of African descent on the board. I am interested in what you think is uncle tomish but I will tell you this:
It gets to a point in your research.....and dealing with professionals in the field (your sources)..where you cannot simply say what you want to say any way you want to say it. Some of the things/images that you write/type/post could jeopardize your relationship with your sources therefore stopping the flow of information and correspondence. If one wants to correspond with Tishkoff, Cruciani, Wells, Stringer, Hassan et al you have to work from the assumption that your web identity is under their eye. There is a reason for everything, reasons that may not be clear at first glance. There is also a reason why that info was posted there first and not here.
As for autosomal data. The first time they run some mummies through ADMIXTURE i can already tell you what is going to happen. This is not based on any secret data just a logical conclusion based on whats happening behind the scenes. Their entire intent is to obfuscate, leave people waiting in the wind for data, or show the Material to be some discrete extinct unit.
1 - There will be no supplemental or K break down. 2 - The Egyptian sample will be royal. The will be multiple samples for the reason below. 3 - Of course the samples will form one cluster as they are inbred.
We will then infer some type of relationship based on the minor presence (or lack thereof) of this "Egyptian" cluster in other Aficans/Non Africans.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
There are many AE mummies in museums all over the world like Ginger, Janus (link) and the mummies in Italy sequenced by Marin et al. With these mummies falling under regional European jurisdiction, they don't have to put up with the high maintenance queens in the Egyptian antiquities establishment. I'm surprised about why none of these mummies haven't been sequenced yet for the purpose of ascertaining population affinity, like they did/attempted with Otzi and Kennewick man.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] Beyoku is a respected poster there, while anything is possible it's unlikely he lied to us about that study preview (he's more like an uncle tom kind of poster, no offense).
I have been called many things, Never that. My posting history on that site....as well as this one almost always revolve around posting Published studies on Africana for the people of African descent on the board. I am interested in what you think is uncle tomish but I will tell you this:
It gets to a point in your research.....and dealing with professionals in the field (your sources)..where you cannot simply say what you want to say any way you want to say it. Some of the things/images that you write/type/post could jeopardize your relationship with your sources therefore stopping the flow of information and correspondence. If one wants to correspond with Tishkoff, Cruciani, Wells, Stringer, Hassan et al you have to work from the assumption that your web identity is under their eye. There is a reason for everything, reasons that may not be clear at first glance. There is also a reason why that info was posted there first and not here.
As for autosomal data. The first time they run some mummies through ADMIXTURE i can already tell you what is going to happen. This is not based on any secret data just a logical conclusion based on whats happening behind the scenes. Their entire intent is to obfuscate, leave people waiting in the wind for data, or show the Material to be some discrete extinct unit.
1 - There will be no supplemental or K break down. 2 - The Egyptian sample will be royal. The will be multiple samples for the reason below. 3 - Of course the samples will form one cluster as they are inbred.
We will then infer some type of relationship based on the minor presence (or lack thereof) of this "Egyptian" cluster in other Aficans/Non Africans.
Personally, I think it's all related to history. The history of the Ancient Egyptian history if you pardon me to say. In contemporary time (beyond Ancient Greece), the history of Ancient Egypt has started on some horrible racist propagenda footing, and current scientific works are always based on past scientific works, it will take a few more years before mainstream egyptology finally totally accept the black African origin of Ancient Egyptian. Even other great African civilizations had to pass through those stages. Mainstream egyptology seems to be much more "conservative" than most other liberal historic fields. But I can see the progression already. At one time, Ancient Kemetians were full fledged Europeans, then West Asians, then "hamites" mixed with European, then were culturally and religiously African but not biologically, then there was a African biological substratum to Ancient Egyptians, and with time I think even mainstream egyptology will talk about Ancient Egyptians as a fully black African civilizations. It's a progression. It seems egyptology is a tougher nut to crack than any other aspect of world and African history. Decades of racist propagenda history still affect how scientists analyse current data for some reason. But since the archaeological works in the eastern Saharan desert (western desert of Egypt), it seems even mainstream egyptology has become open to the African substratum in Ancient Egypt. With time, I'm sure, more liberal and academic point of view will triumph and Ancient Egypt history will be considered a wholly African one (well, as much as ancient greece is a wholly European one, lets say). Then it will up to African historians and scientists to write Ancient Kemetians history from their perspective and study aspect that interest African people. An American will almost always write the Russian or Chinese history in a different manner than a Russian and Chinese and it's probably vice-versa. Even if sometimes that manner is totally respectful. As long as African egyptologist, historians, geneticist are on the backseat of their own (ancient Egyptian) history, including for funding research, they will never get to decide how the car is driven. International researchers will eventually admit Ancient Egyptians to be almost fully black Africans but it will still be tackled from a foreign perspectives. From a different cultural filter. Hopefully, in the future more African people tackle egyptian history (not afrocentrist reactionary) and pursue archeological works in Africa (African funded). There's so few archeological works (outside egypt) carried in Africa it's unbelievable. Even the Sahara desert, easier to tackle than "tropical" archeology, is an archeological field that is waiting to explode and reveal more of its mysteries and history.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: I dont have the full study. I dont know when the full study will be published. It was assumed to be published this year but the work was cut short due to the political situation in the country.
I CAN say they are not Royal. This could be a snapshot of ONE location or up to 4 locations in the Nile Valley.... at this time I cannot say which. This is all the limited data I have.
Well, I'm a very patient person. I've waited long enough for DNA results of the pharaohs for how long now?? Over 10 years now? I think I can wait for the commoners. LOL
quote:At this point we don't know if the lineages represent wide spread migration INTO or out of the Nile Valley. I don't want to jump the gun. I would assume the E1b1a would be OUT OF. Mainly because the lack of E1a which is a CORE West African Sahelian lineage. I don't know how a CORE lineage like this, from an area that has great pre-historical clout..... could be missing in a migration from the West that included E1b1a. The E2a and the E2 which could be E2b is also up for grabs. These are two very old lineages E2b being widespread. Peaking in Burkina Faso, Cameroon and South Africa. E2a is on the other hand concentrated around the Great Lakes region.
I don't know which branch(es) of E2 are found in the Iberian Peninsula as well as southwest Asia (both Levant and Arabia), but they exist there too. Not to mention the mtDNA hg L2a in those same regions.
quote:IMO A3b2 is Saharan. And i don't quite know about B2a
I don't know about the former, but I think the latter may be associated with the Great Lakes.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
NO! This is definitely not what the genetic data is suggesting. Virtually all of this genetic data points to lineages or alleles that predate some the major language phyla spoken in the Nile Valley in historical times, let alone Egyptian civilization itself. Various peoples have been migrating throughout Africa from one side of the continent to another well before predynastic times. Thus without this historical context, one may get the wrong impression that this was somehow a meeting of different peoples across the continent coming together to form Egypt.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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this is my personal experience though I won't give implicit examples because the correspondences were and remain private confidential person-person
PC won't allow 'em to write what they really think and privately discuss among each other
let this one example suffice
I asked if a mistake was made placing Nigeria in NA in one report
the response was due to Fulani I was told despite language and location of Fulani in WA linkage disequilibrium and other data (uncited btw) indicates Fulani are 40-50% NA
no lie
Fulani madness
Like Hassan's Fulani Madness in using Fulani in E Afr nrY to say Fulani are separate different special than "the Negroes" all the while he and all the others avoid the halPulaaren homeland Futa Toro never using them in any studies nowhere in print that I can find.
Hamiticism is alive and well underground waiting to boldly resurface by any name old or new
I agree totally. There is no other way to explain the sometimes glaring discrepancies and inconsistencies in some of these studies on African population genetics.
It's the same game being played on a different ball field. The irony is despite the focus being genetics, these folks still apparently go by phenotype stereotypes. Note for example they include Chad as 'North Africa' and by implication 'Eurasia' due to the presence of NRY hg R clade, even though it's frequency there is quite minimal compared to that in Cameroon. Yet they don't seem keen in including the Benue-Congo (ancestral Bantu) speaking locals as 'North African'. Meanwhile as Zarahan often states Somalia is included as 'North African' despite Somalis having the the highest frequency of E clade.
I've even read reports about Fulani having alleged mitochondrial 'Euraisan' ancestry via hg J. Though this same clade is present among other ethnies that look 'stereotypically' West African. Overall, the Fulani have genetic profiles that are no different from other West Africans who look stereotypically "negroid".
By the way, excellent citation of Yosef Ben-Jochannan. He was a great scholar who like Diop was quick to point out the hypocrisy and irrationality of the Euronuts. That map and accompanying description looks rather handy. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^^^I keep hearing that Fulanis are a mix of West Africans and North Africans, while others state mostly West African. Which one is it? I know they're not Eurasian...
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I haven't studied it in-depth either, I'm just making inferences. I'm well aware that many researchers think of sickle cell is a relatively recent disease, but I've seen no molecular specifics for it. In fact, Sickle Cell consistent internal lesions keep cropping up in both dynastic and pre-dynastic mummies. Yes, some TMRCA estimates have been performed, but the authors themselves admit that the estimated haplotypes involve very recent Sahelian expansions. I'm simply putting the pieces of the puzzle together.
--West/Central Africa is the region the Benin SC associated haplotype peaks, and it is also where L1b and L2a emerged ~30kya and ~50kya, respectively, in a Pre-Niger Congo context. From this expansive region both lineages expanded to North Africa 15-10kya in the form of L1b1a and L2a1. See Zheng et al 2012
--Both of these lineages (L1b1a and L2a1) have been found in Neolithic Eurasian aDNA. The former in Chalcolithic Spain and the latter in Pre Pottery Neolithic Syria. Both are also found in dynastic Egyptian aDNA (see the OP).
--Ancient L2a1 survives in some modern Jewish groups and L1b1a and L2a1 survives in (Eastern) Europeans and their examples of L2a1 are closer to West/Central African versions than Ethiopian versions:
If I go back to the HVR1-only level, then there's a large number of matches listed, but split quite obviously between Jewish and African groups -- a number of different specific tribes from Cameroon, Guinea-Bissau, and Sierra Leone, in particular, are listed. There are *no* matches listed from Egypt, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, or Sudan, which is the area of the world where you'd expect to see an African/Jewish overlap.link
The oldest Eurasian versions of L1b1a and L2a1 coalesce to ~10kya, consistent with Epi-Palaeolithic migration from Egypt, associated with E-M78.
--Benin sickle cell regions in Africa have high L1b and L2a and, surprise surprise, Benin sickle predominates in European nations where 1/3, 2/3 or 3/3 of the aforementioned Epi-Palaeolithic associated lineages have been found been found. In all implied regions, namely, West/Central Africa, the Nile Valley, the Levant, South- Eastern Europe the predominant SC variant is always the Benin one.
Coincidence? I think not.
Your theory with accompanying explanation does make perfect sense. I also wonder if there is any correlation with NRY E2 which is found in Senegal and Saharan Tuaregs, and in Iberians since Mesolithic times, along with folks in the Levant and Arabia.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^^ I keep hearing that Fulanis are a mix of West Africans and North Africans, while others state mostly West African. Which one is it? I know they're not Eurasian...
Question: What exactlyis the difference between 'North' Africa and 'West' Africa?? That is to say, what constitutes the two regions in the first place??
P.S. there is a lot of genetic overlap between the populations of both regions.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^^ I keep hearing that Fulanis are a mix of West Africans and North Africans, while others state mostly West African. Which one is it? I know they're not Eurasian...
Question: What exactlyis the difference between 'North' Africa and 'West' Africa?? That is to say, what constitutes the two regions in the first place??
P.S. there is a lot of genetic overlap between the populations of both regions.
People like Henn don't seem to agree to that, by cherry picking certain West African groups that clearly do not cluster with North Africans. Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: ^^^^ I keep hearing that Fulanis are a mix of West Africans and North Africans, while others state mostly West African. Which one is it? I know they're not Eurasian...
Question: What exactlyis the difference between 'North' Africa and 'West' Africa?? That is to say, what constitutes the two regions in the first place??
P.S. there is a lot of genetic overlap between the populations of both regions.
Cosigned strongly.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
^^^^I keep hearing that Fulanis are a mix of West Africans and North Africans, while others state mostly West African. Which one is it? I know they're not Eurasian...
Eurocentric researchers assign Fulani as North African as a matter of vanity in the wake of Hamiticism.
Despite their West African language, first known location (as ethnic hal Pulaaren), and expansion, their phenotype and economy inspired Eurocentrists to adopt Fulani. Eurocentric Fulani madness went as far as describing them as blue-eyed (Ibrahim 1966).
While true the first cultural appearance of folk like the Fulani is in Late Stone Age SE Algeria in Ajjer territory, except for minor genetic incretion there's nothing North African about Fulani.
In recent times Fulani are locally associated with Niger-Kordofanian and Nilo-Saharan speakers. But formerly they were a people apart unrecognized by 'Berber' and 'Black' alike as kinsmen despite ties of marriage.
The closest Fulani come to North African people is a supposed identity/association with Mauritanians going back to the banu Warith of the Goddala group of the pre-alMurabitun Sanhaja confederation but totally severed after Beydani Maurs rescinded Fulani from their warrior class in the notorious ethnic cleansing of Mauritania's military a few decades ago.
Also I know that Fulani origins(like other West Africans) are of the Sahara when it was green. They most likely migrated to the Niger when the Sahara was drying up. Fulani are still a grassland type people.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
^ Note that the Fulani are a large nomadic cultural group consisting of many tribes spread out from the edge of the Sahara in the north to the edge of the forests in the south and from coastal Senegal to Ethiopia. That said, there is bound to be diversity both cultural as well as genetic among them.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: People like Henn don't seem to agree to that, by cherry picking certain West African groups that clearly do not cluster with North Africans.
Precisely Tukuler's and my point. It is a tactic Eurocentrics play called "stacking the decks", wherein they pick and choose certain groups to represent Sub-Saharans while certain groups in North Africa are chosen to represent North Africans. As I've stated, there is actually a great deal of overlap between 'Sub-Saharan' West Africa and Northwest Africa a.k.a. the Maghreb, when overall populations as a whole are taken into account.
Getting back to the main issue of Egypt, the same applies in regards to the so-called 'difference' between Northeast Africa i.e. Egypt and Sudan vs. "Sub-Saharan" East Africa i.e. the Horn and Great Lakes region. As Zarahan has noted in the Hamitic or Cacazoid zeal of some scholars, even the Horn is included as 'North Africa' despite being firmly located south of the Sahara!! It's the same game of 'stacking the decks'.
The irony is that these DNA findings not only from the royals published on DNA Tribes, but even these latest findings shown by Beyoku on commoners all display characteristics associated with deep 'Sub-Sahara'. The only option the Euronuts have now is to include the Great Lakes area and the Guinea Forest region as 'North Africa' too! LMAOPosts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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True. The Fulani are a large group consisting of many different tribes. But IMO I think the proto Fulanis originated in the Sahara during the holocene.
And yeah I certainly agree with you man on the Ancient Egypt part. For the Eurocentrics to claim Ancient Egypt or North Africa, they'll have to claim ALL of Africa. That is why Eurocentricsm is falling a part.
They would have to claim all of Africans because PN2 binds all Africans together. You see even though Africa is a big continent like Asia, unlike Asia, Africa had constant gene flow where in Asia, the people were isolated by mountains and different regions and what not. I believe you were the one who said this. For example some Euronuts want to pretend U6 is the origins of all Berbers, when Berbers origins don't even go back that far. Euronuts like to use U6 to try and claim Berbers are Eurasians in origins, yet U6 is no longer Eurasian and U6 clades are not even found outside of Africa.
If we play their little games, they would have to claim some East and West African populations since certain populations in those regions carry U6 too and they are ISOLATED. Thats how their arguments fall flat.
And like you said...Ancient Egypt too. Euronuts now have to claim the Nubians because its now said that the Nubians are the CLOSETS to the Ancient Egyptians.
So now they try to claim the Nubians. But they also claim horners such as Somalis and Ethiopians because both horners and Nubians are related. And horners are of the same Northeast African stock as Nubians, Ancient Egyptians, Beja,etc. But what Euronuts don't know is that they will have to claim to claim AFRICAN AMERICANS!!!! Why??? Because studies have shown Somalis will group FIRST with African Americans than they would Europeans and even Near easterners...Their NEIGHBORS!!! LMAO!!!
^^^Don't you see the epic failness?
They'll have to claim the WHOLE pie.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
PN2 binds all Africans together.
Can you please clarify that statement.
Not even YAP (M96) binds all Africans together (though E-M96 derived all E subhaplogroups: E2-M75, E1a-M33, E1b2-P75, as well as E1b1-P2). Also there are HGs A and B to consider.
BTW E1a-M33 is somewhat Saharan specific and may the hg of some of the Greco-Latin sub-Atlas peoples.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
"Individuals with the same morphology do not necessarily cluster with each other by lineage, and a given lineage does not include only individuals with the same trait complex (or 'racial type'). Y-chromosome DNA from Africa alone suffices to make this point. Africa contains populations whose members have a range of external phenotypes. This variation has usually been described in terms of 'race' (Caucasoids, Pygmoids, Congoids, Khoisanoids). But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar. The individuals in the morphologically or geographically defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private' distinct lineages restricted to each of them." (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)
May have exaggerated when I said all Africans.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
OK
Just keep in mind erroneous exaggerations are what besmirches African studies in the eyes of the world. You know, the old "sloppy scholarship" canard applied to independent African minded academicians.
Best to make unassailable factual statements in the interest of a watertight ship for African studies.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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This post by zarahan is the best post in this thread (beside the original post of course). Some very good quotes from mainstream egyptology going in line with what is said in this thread. Many others have been posted too on this forum along the years.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: [qb] Would it be correct to say Ancient Egypt was like some Pan African African Union civilization? Based of the studies we've seen so far?
I don't think Ancient Egypt is a "pan African" civilization the sense that some build it up to be- as if it was some sort of "central headquarters" for civilization in Africa. Africa doesn't need any "central headquarters". The genesis, the source is on the bio-historical ground level- the Sahara and other regions. These are "the groundings"...
I agree with that. Most modern black Africans (A, B and E Y-DNA haplogroups) share relatively recent common ancestors with Ancient Egyptians. The Saharan belt, from the Atlantic ocean to Sudan/East Africa are the location where most modern African people have one of their common ancestors.
quote: RECAP FROM OLD THREAD
Conservative mainstream Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt slams diffusionism of 'Afrocentrists' - shows ancient Egypt derived from an African cultural sub-stratum
[QUOTE:]
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography . Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization (rather than diffusion from sub-Saharan Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric scholars.)"
Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
Very good quote from a very mainstream archeological publication. The Oxford encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt.
Here it basically says that the wavy-line pottery civilization (the Saharan-Sahel-Nile civilization) are a precursors of the early Ancient Egyptians. The Wavy line pottery culture extended from the Atlantic Ocean to the Sudan/Egypt/East-African regions. The oldest pottery in Africa comes from Southern Mali. The oldest boat from Dafuna, Nigeria.
The Oxford Encyclopedia also note **STRONG** similarities between Ancient Egyptian culture and modern African culture.
quote: Some have argued that that African-Americans Should not “interfere” with Nile Valley history, and have “no connection” to said history, and self-styled “concerned” Egyptians, both bogus and real sometimes put in an apparent appearance to lecture said ‘African Americans.” or “Black Americans.” But if the conservative mainstream reference itself shows that numerous ancient Egyptian cultural links and similarities to other parts of “Black Africa”, including MODERN African cultures, how come African Americans are supposed to sit quietly and say nothing?
“African Americans" are not obsessively tracing their history back to Egypt as alleged by assorted blowhards and pundits. They don't need to any such tracing, nor do they need "permission" from self-styled Arab nativists, alleged "Egyptian" natives/nativists, Egypto-Arabs, or white people to study and comment on Egypt.
I don't know who said that African-American can't "interfere" with Ancient Egyptian history but they are obviously idiots or bigots. Ancient Kemet is part of the African history like the history of the Yoruba, Djenne-Djenno, Great Zimbabwe, Kongo, Bunyoro-Kitara, Zulu empires. Even the Oxford Encyclopedia retraces both their archeological genesis and their cultural similarities with other modern Africans. Noting strong similarities. The DNA data exposed in this thread further confirms the biological similarities (shared ancestry). We can note traditional headrest being found all over Africa.
quote: The Sahara was once a lush greenbelt extending across one-third of Africa, allowing the easy movement of peoples. Its climatic cycles - the famous Saharan "pump" - was to create conditions for the movement of peoples into the Nile Valley, the Sahelian zone and elsewhere. But it remains the foundation.
Informed African-Americans thus do not conceive of Egypt as being created out of thin air. Nor do they rely on the truism that "Egypt is in Africa." They begin at the Saharan zone, which provided the main source for the peopling of the Nile Valley, and laid the foundation, and was the genesis of the Nile Valley Civilization, and also was the genesis of the West African kingdoms adjoining it. The Sahara is the linking pin- the motor of Africa's bio-cultural evolution. This is where "African Americans" start.
I don't know what the majority of African-American interested in African history think, but I hope that's what they think. The Saharan belt was an important zone of interrelationship between many African groups and lineages. As I said above the pottery invented in Mali was later found in Sudan and Egypt. Other similar example can be found in archeology (microlithic tools, burial patterns, various object, human remains, etc).
quote: The eternal Sahara is the key, the starting point, the genesis, the fundamental force. Egypt follows AFTER and derives from that broad Saharan foundation, not before. So do the civilizations of Western Africa. There is no need to seek "inspiration" from latecomers like Rameses or Cleopatra. The "inspiration" springs from the starting point, the African cultures that gave rise to the Egyptian dynastic civilization. It is from that genesis, that launching point, that other developments are appreciated, in all their cIt ontinuity.
That's what I think. In practical manner the Genesis of all modern black African civilizations comes from the Sahara. The Green Sahara period. Including the wavy-line pottery culture.
To go further back in time, many of those people who populated the Sahara originated in Sudan/East African region by evidence of genetics (all E descendant hg like E1b1a and E1b1b - E-P2 descendants- originated in or around the Sudan region. Maybe the same can be said about A and B hg (their latest common ancestors). The same with the linguistic origin of most modern African language familyl (Niger-Kordofanian(Niger-Kongo, Yoruba, Wolof, Dogon, Bantu) originated in the Sudan/East African region then spread in the Green Sahara first then eventually across all Africa.
quote: [Quote by another conservative mainstream scholar:]
"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.." (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)
Now those skeletal evidence have been corroborated with genetic evidence (aDNA) as well as other cultural, geographic, linguistic, archeological evidences.
quote: The Sahara was also a key player in the great West African civilizations that were to arise as well- Mali, Ghana, Timbuktu etc., ranging from the Saharan trade, to the transmission of knowledge, to the transmission of new methods and technologies.
The Sahara is the great linking pin and transmission belt culturally. It is also the great climate and environmental motor that shaped one-third of Africa. As one study notes:
From: Climate-Controlled Holocene Occupation in the Sahara: Motor of Africa's Evolution by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin*
”Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E. Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilization along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day.”
The Sahara region is very interesting for African people who want to retrace back their ancestry. People can also note the importance of climate change. A Bantu from South Africa, may have ancestors who came from the Great Lakes region, then those ancestors from West Africa, then those ancestors from the Sahara then those ancestors from Sudan/East Africa. The Green Sahara period being central for the biological and cultural genesis of most modern African people.
Genetics prove it with both E1b1a and E1b1b having originated in the Sudan and East African regions then spread elsewhere in Africa. Same as the linguistic diversity in Africa having originated in the same Sudan/East African region. All major African linguistic groups comes from that region, that is Niger-Kordofanian (Niger-Kongo, Yoruba, Bantu, Dogun, Wolof,etc), Nilo-Saharan, Cushitic/Chadic and even Khoisan (a bit further back in time).
quote: Informed African Americans place Egypt in its proper context as a tropical civilization. They don’t begin any exploration of African civilizations with Egypt, they start with AFRICA ITSELF, from which the genesis, the foundational elements sprung, that provided the basis or substratum for that civilization. The Sahara is one such central foundational element. It is in that broad Saharan zone for example that the ancients created theih huge megaliths of stone, and designed calendars and other astonomical alignments. It is from that broad zone that the cattle cults of NE Africa developed- cults that were to figure so prominently in Egyptian religion. It is from the African genesis that other concepts such as divine kingship, and the art iconography of Egypt developed. It is from the Saharan zone (which extends well into the Sudan) that patterns of technology in pottery, toolmaking, mummification, and numerous other influences emerged that were to distinguish ancient Egypt. ANy "inspiration" taken by African-American begins with a foundation based on the ground, in Africa.
I completely agree with that. Both the cultural (religion, language, burial practices, pottery, etc) and biological genesis of African people sprung from the Sahara. The Kongo, Djenne-Djenno, the Yoruba, Ancient Egyptians, Kushite, the Great Zimbabwean civilizations are all descendant of those people who used to live in the Sahara during the Green Sahara period (and a bit before).
quote: There are other “African Americans” who look even further back than the Saharan mix mentioned above. They look back to the dawn of modern humanity, which emerged from “sub-Saharan” Africa, then proceeded to Northeast Africa, (also "sub Saharan" by the way), and from there to the rest of the globe by various exit routes. Again, the starting point for any discussion remains AFRICA itself.
You have made a great case including from mainstream egyptology showing the strong cultural, archeological and now biological (archeolgy, genetics) linkage between the Saharan civilization, modern Africans and Ancient Kemetians. They all share common ancestors in the Sahara. A, B and E descendant haplogroup in Y-DNA terms to ark back to the original post in this thread.
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Conservative mainstream Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt slams diffusionism of 'Afrocentrists' - shows ancient Egypt derived from an African cultural sub-stratum
[QUOTE:]
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin . A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography . Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization (rather than diffusion from sub-Saharan Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric scholars.) "
Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
It probably meant: rather than diffusion "to" sub-Saharan Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric scholars. Not "from". Clearly that's a typo in the original text considering the rest of the quote.
Some Afrocentrists in the past (like Diop) claimed diffusion *from* Ancient Egypt, labeling almost all modern African to be descendant of Ancient Egyptian people, which is wrong in my opinion as well as what the encyclopedia tries to say. It's the other way around. Most modern Africa people including Ancient Kemetian and Kushite descend from common ancestors in the Sahara. An "African origin", an "African substratum" or an African "foundation" to Ancient Egypt (as well as other modern African people).
Saying an "African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization" is like saying diffusion *from* Africa toward Ancient Egypt(as well as other modern African population and civilizations). Obviously other fields such as archeology, linguistic and now genetics also shows the African origin (aka the black African, the so called Sub-Saharan origin) of the Ancient Egyptian civilizations. Ancient Kemetians share common relatively recent A, B and E ancestors with the rest of African people (as well as autosomal DNA STR values). As well as other strong cultural and religious linkage.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: There are many AE mummies in museums all over the world like Ginger, Janus (link) and the mummies in Italy sequenced by Marin et al. With these mummies falling under regional European jurisdiction, they don't have to put up with the high maintenance queens in the Egyptian antiquities establishment. I'm surprised about why none of these mummies haven't been sequenced yet for the purpose of ascertaining population affinity, like they did/attempted with Otzi and Kennewick man.
Nice work by the Dutch students team, might want to visit that museum soon.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Conservative mainstream Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt slams diffusionism of 'Afrocentrists' - shows ancient Egypt derived from an African cultural sub-stratum
[QUOTE:]
Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin . A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography . Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons...
Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization (rather than diffusion from sub-Saharan Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric scholars.) "
Source: Donald Redford (2001) The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p. 28
It probably meant: rather than diffusion "to" sub-Saharan Africa, as claimed by some Afrocentric scholars. Not "from". Clearly that's a typo in the original text considering the rest of the quote.
Some Afrocentrists in the past (like Diop) claimed diffusion *from* Ancient Egypt, labeling almost all modern African to be descendant of Ancient Egyptian people, which is wrong in my opinion as well as what the encyclopedia tries to say. It's the other way around. Most modern Africa people including Ancient Kemetian and Kushite descend from common ancestors in the Sahara. An "African origin", an "African substratum" or an African "foundation" to Ancient Egypt (as well as other modern African people).
Saying an "African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization" is like saying diffusion *from* Africa toward Ancient Egypt(as well as other modern African population and civilizations). Obviously other fields such as archeology, linguistic and now genetics also shows the African origin (aka the black African, the so called Sub-Saharan origin) of the Ancient Egyptian civilizations. Ancient Kemetians share common relatively recent A, B and E ancestors with the rest of African people (as well as autosomal DNA STR values). As well as other strong cultural and religious linkage.
It's known that Kerma and Naqada arose prior to MKT itself existed.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Credit actually goes to beyoku for presenting this to everyone. And also credit to Firewall for actually PMing me this in the first place.
Anyways...This is really interesting and the fight for an African Ancient Egypt is starting to come to a close..
quote: OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
He makes some really good points. It appears its not the full study and I think beyoku states he is not able to post the full one for some reason.
Father: Sethnakhte
Mother: Queen Tiy-merenese
Wives: Isis, Titi, and Tiy
Sons: Ramesses IV, Ramesses V, Amenhirkhopshef, Khaemwaset, Parahiremenef, Sethirhkopshef
Daughter: Titi
Son: Ramesses VI out of Isis
quote:"Just think that this race of black men, today our slave and object of our scron is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences and even the use of speech."
--1787 French philosopher and historian Constantine de Volney
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: "Just think that this race of black men, today our slave and object of our scron is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences and even the use of speech."
--1787 French philosopher and historian Constantine de Volney [/QUOTE]
^^^^ He is referring to the Copts, who he describes as being of " "the black race" full context>
It is claimed that the name comes Copts them Coptos City , where they retired , they say , during the persecutions of the Greeks , but I think it more natural and more ancient origin . The Arabic term Qoubti , a Copt , seems an obvious change from the Greek Have goupti -os , an Egyptian , because it should be noted that there was pronounced or the ancient Greeks and the Arabs did , or g before Aug neither the letter p, always replace these letters q and b: Copts are properly the representatives of Egypt [ 52] , and it is a singular fact that this makes sense even more likely . Considering the face of many individuals of this race, I found a particular character set my attention all have a yellowish skin tone and smoky, which is neither Greek nor Arabic all have the face puffy , swollen eye , flat nose , fat lip , in a word , real mulatto figure . I was tempted to attribute it to the climate [53] , when, having been visiting the Sphinx , its appearance gave me the key to the riddle . Seeing this character head negro in all its features , I remembered this remarkable passage of Herodotus , where he says [54] : For me, I believe that the Colchians are a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, have black skin and curly hair , that is to say , that the ancient Egyptians were true negroes of the species of all natural Africa [55] , and therefore their blood explains how ally for several centuries the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of its first color, however retaining the imprint of its original mold. We can even give this observation a very general scope , and to assume that the face is a kind of own monument in many cases to establish or clarify the testimony of history, the origins of the people. Among us, a period of nine hundred years could not erase the nuance that distinguished the inhabitants of Gaul, of the men of the North, under Charles the Fat , came to occupy the richest of our provinces. Travelers who go by sea from Normandy in Denmark , speak with surprise fraternal resemblance of the inhabitants of these two countries , preserved despite the distance of place and time . The same occurs when we move from Franconia in Burgundy , and if we carefully went through France, England or any other country, we would find traces of emigration written on the face of the inhabitants. Jews do not they are not erasable, wherever they are established ? In states where the nobility of an alien people introduced by conquest, if that nobility has developed indigenous ally , its people have a special imprint. The kalmouque blood still visible in India , and if anyone had studied the various nations of Europe and northern Asia , it may end up analogies that has forgotten.
But returning to Egypt, because it makes the story offers many reflections in philosophy. What about meditation, see the current barbarism and ignorance of the Copts , from the combination of profound genius of the Egyptians and the brilliant mind of the Greeks just think that this race of black men today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very one to which we owe our arts, our sciences , and even the use of speech ; imagine , finally, that it is among the people who say most friends of liberty and humanity , which is sanctioned slavery as barbaric and set problem if black men have an understanding of the species of white ! Language is another monument whose indications are no less just and less informative . One whose Copts were using heretofore , agrees to find the facts which I have established . On the one hand , the shape of their letters and most of their words show that the Greek nation , living in a thousand years , strongly impressed its mark on Egypt , but on the other hand, alphabet Coptic five letters , and a lot of dictionary words which are like debris and remnants of ancient Egyptian .These words, discussed with criticism, have a significant analogy with the idioms of the adjacent former peoples, such as the Arabs , Ethiopians , Syrians and even residents of the Euphrates , and can be established as a fact that all these languages were only derived from a common fund dialects. For more than three centuries , the Copts fell into disuse , the conquering Arabs, disdaining the language of the conquered peoples , they have imposed their yoke with the obligation to learn their language. This obligation became law when, at the end of the first century of the hedjire the Caliph Ouâled
On prétend que le nom de Coptes leur vient de la ville de Coptos, où ils se retirèrent, dit-on, lors des persécutions des Grecs; mais je lui crois une origine plus naturelle et plus ancienne. Le terme arabe Qoubti, un Copte, me semble une altération évidente du grec Ai-goupti-os, un Égyptien; car on doit remarquer que y était prononcé ou chez les anciens Grecs, et que les Arabes n'ayant, ni g devant a o u, ni la lettre p, remplacent toujours ces lettres par q et b: les Coptes sont donc proprement les représentans des Égyptiens[52]; et il est un fait singulier qui rend cette acception encore plus probable. En considérant le visage de beaucoup d'individus de cette race, j'y ai trouvé un caractère particulier qui a fixé mon attention: tous ont un ton de peau jaunâtre et fumeux, qui n'est ni grec ni arabe; tous ont le visage bouffi, l'œil gonflé, le nez écrasé, la lèvre grosse; en un mot, une vraie figure de mulâtre. J'étais tenté de l'attribuer au climat[53], lorsque, ayant été visiter le Sphinx, son aspect me donna le mot de l'énigme. En voyant cette tête caractérisée nègre dans tous ses traits, je me rappelai ce passage remarquable d'Hérodote, où il dit[54]: Pour moi, j'estime que les Colches sont une colonie des Égyptiens, parce que, comme eux, ils ont la peau noire et les cheveux crépus; c'est-à-dire, que les anciens Égyptiens étaient de vrais nègres de l'espèce de tous les naturels d'Afrique[55]; et dès lors on explique comment leur sang, allié depuis plusieurs siècles à celui des Romains et des Grecs, a dû perdre l'intensité de sa première couleur, en conservant cependant l'empreinte de son moule originel. On peut même donner à cette observation une étendue très-générale, et poser en principe que la physionomie est une sorte de monument propre en bien des cas à constater ou éclaircir les témoignages de l'histoire, sur les origines des peuples. Parmi nous, un laps de neuf cents ans n'a pu effacer la nuance qui distinguait les habitans des Gaules, de ces hommes du Nord, qui, sous Charles-le-Gros, vinrent occuper la plus riche de nos provinces. Les voyageurs qui vont par mer de Normandie en Danemarck, parlent avec surprise de la ressemblance fraternelle des habitans de ces deux contrées, conservée malgré la distance des lieux et des temps. La même observation se présente, quand on passe de Franconie en Bourgogne; et si l'on parcourait avec attention la France, l'Angleterre ou toute autre contrée, on y trouverait la trace des émigrations écrite sur la face des habitans. Les Juifs n'en portent-ils pas d'ineffaçables, en quelque lieu qu'ils soient établis? Dans les états où la noblesse représente un peuple étranger introduit par conquête, si cette noblesse ne s'est point alliée aux indigènes, ses individus ont une empreinte particulière. Le sang kalmouque se distingue encore dans l'Inde; et si quelqu'un avait étudié les diverses nations de l'Europe et du nord de l'Asie, il retrouverait peut-être des analogies qu'on a oubliées.
Mais en revenant à l'Égypte, le fait qu'elle rend à l'histoire offre bien des réflexions à la philosophie. Quel sujet de méditation, de voir la barbarie et l'ignorance actuelle des Coptes, issues de l'alliance du génie profond des Égyptiens et de l'esprit brillant des Grecs; de penser que cette race d'hommes noirs, aujourd'hui notre esclave et l'objet de nos mépris, est celle-là même à laquelle nous devons nos arts, nos sciences, et jusqu'à l'usage de la parole; d'imaginer enfin que c'est au milieu des peuples qui se disent les plus amis de la liberté et de l'humanité, que l'on a sanctionné le plus barbare des esclavages, et mis en problème si les hommes noirs ont une intelligence de l'espèce des blancs! Le langage est un autre monument dont les indications ne sont pas moins justes ni moins instructives. Celui dont usaient ci-devant les Coptes, s'accorde à constater les faits que j'établis. D'un côté, la forme de leurs lettres et la majeure partie de leurs mots démontrent que la nation grecque, dans un séjour de mille ans, a imprimé fortement son empreinte sur l'Égypte[56]; mais d'autre part, l'alphabet copte a cinq lettres, et le dictionnaire beaucoup de mots qui sont comme les débris et les restes de l'ancien égyptien. Ces mots, examinés avec critique, ont une analogie sensible avec les idiomes des anciens peuples adjacents, tels que les Arabes, les Éthiopiens, les Syriens et même les riverains de l'Euphrate; et l'on peut établir comme un fait certain que toutes ces langues ne furent que des dialectes dérivés d'un fonds commun. Depuis plus de trois siècles, celui des Coptes est tombé en désuétude; les Arabes conquérants, en dédaignant l'idiome des peuples vaincus, leur ont imposé avec leur joug, l'obligation d'apprendre leur langue. Cette obligation même devint une loi, lorsque, sur la fin du premier siècle de l'hedjire, le kalife Ouâled
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posted
^You must think Copts are white ethnic group of people and always have been?
quote: "The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they actually represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology."
--Hassan et al., (2008)
Anyway,
quote:
- But returning to Egypt, because it makes the story offers many reflections in philosophy.
-What about meditation,
-see the current barbarism and ignorance of the Copts,
(Ending of the sentence and beginning of the new sentence of the subordinate clause.)
-from the combination of profound genius of the Egyptians and the brilliant mind of the Greeks just think that this race of black men today our slave and the object of our scorn,
-is the very one to which we owe our arts, our sciences , and even the use of speech; imagine , finally, that it is among the people who say most friends of liberty and humanity,
-which is sanctioned slavery as barbaric and set problem if black men have an understanding of the species of white!
It's very important to understand these words.
Now who was considered the slaves by the European during those days, 1787?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
It's just "her" usual passive-aggressive trolling.
In Volney's era Copts were thought to be the most likely "true" descendents of the ancient Egyptians.
I first came across one of Volney's Copt quotes in J G Jackson.
Some passages were expurgated in the first American editions. Slaveholders found them seditious.
Then there's this from another Volney book I first read in either Diop Jackson or ben Jochanan.
quote:"All the Egyptians, have a bloated face, puffed-up eyes, flat nose, thick lips – in a word, the true face of the mulatto. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when I visited the Sphinx, its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing that head, typically Negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where Herodotus says:
'As for me, I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black with woolly hair...'
In other words, the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Greeks and Romans, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. . . . . What a subject for meditation, just think, that this race of Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of people who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery, and questioned whether Black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites!"
So you see even centuries ago alongside Napoleon's Egyptian expedition things we're saying here today on ES was not unknown. From that day 'till this,
the struggle continues.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote: "In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested."
--Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human"
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: "Just think that this race of black men, today our slave and object of our scron is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences and even the use of speech." -1787 French philosopher and historian Constantine de Volney
I don't blame anyone for posting this becasue it's all over the internet and in books but they leave the Copts part out. But maybe people should check things before using it.
It refers to Copts but one would never know that beacause the statement is taken out of context. This happens quite a bit with centrics, Afro and Euro. I would call it disingenuous how the quote is extracted but doesn't mention Copts.
Very rarely do we hear Copts these days being discussed in discussions on ancient Egyptians. Who is closer to the ancient Egyptians, African Americans or Copts? You decide
Volney in 1787 in the quote above is referring to Copts. He described Copts as a black race and included mulattos. >
quote: (Copts) "all have a yellowish skin tone and smoky, which is neither Greek nor Arabic all have the face puffy , swollen eye , flat nose , fat lip in a word , real mulatto figure "-Volney
^^^ this is from the same section of the other quote.
Tukuler thinks that DNA Tribes shouldn't be taken too seriously from an academic point of view because they are a private for profit company and their reports are not subject to peer review.
Another similar private company, DNA Consultants, mentions Ancient Egyptian DNA and Copts:
One could argue with dumbed down terms like "Egyptian gene" nevertheless, they are claiming to have found genetic links between Copts, Africans and Ancient Egyptians. As per DNA Tribes they didn't break down Egypt into a subset that separated Copts.
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One could argue with dumbed down terms like "Egyptian gene" nevertheless, they are claiming to have found genetic links between Copts, Africans and Ancient Egyptians. As per DNA Tribes they didn't break down Egypt into a subset that separated Copts.
If you read the what is written below the map, it talks about a gene of Sub-Saharan African origin. Have you seen it? So every genetic research thus far about adna of Ancient Egyptians comes down to the same thing. Please tell me what you think about it, the lioness. The closer you are to so called Sub-Saharan Africans, the closer you are to Ancient Egyptians.
So if a particular modern Copt is closer to modern Sub-Saharan Africans, then he will be closer to Ancient Egyptians. If a Russian is closer to Sub-Saharan Africans, then he will be closer to Ancient Egyptians. etc.
DNA Tribes didn't match modern Egypt but sub-Saharan Africans, and it's a more complete study because it study not just one gene but many of them and, as you know, it mostly matches so called Sub-Sahara (sub-coastal) Africans. That is in the Great Lakes, Southern, Western and Sahelian regions (using autosomal STR DNA).
Same thing with the peer-reviewed study (used by DNA tribes btw) which also shows Ramses III and the Unknown man E to be E-M2 (E1b1a).
This thread (the original post with the preview of DNA results) also shows the same thing. So, all research thus far show that the closer you are to "sub-Saharan" Africans, the closer you are to Ancient Egyptians. What do you think the lioness?
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Once again the delusional lioness has been debunked.
I find it ironic everything of European origin is being defended with tooth and nail by lioness, and everything of African origin is being fought with tooth and nail by this lioness.
Eurocentrism at its best, shining bright. Yet, this lioness is trying to pretend to be a African American woman. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes another Lyin'Ass Fuckuption posting a quote from Volney w/o being familiar in the least with Volney's works.
Your short quote from Volney was fine and certainly could not be refuted by a lengthier quote from the same man.
As shown Volney's opinion that the best modern representatives in Egypt of "the" ancient Egyptian phenotypes -- which he explicitly states is just another indigenous African people -- are the Copts who have a "mulato" look due to centuries of miscegenation with north Meds.
Nothing changes Volney's opinion whether one regards it as right or wrong. It is what it is, like it or lump it too too bad.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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