quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ he still hasn't explained why the map I posted is wrong. I hate people who bluff. last time I posted he said it was nonsense. That's what he calls an explanation, him calling something nonsense. I hate people who bluff
now he's wasting everybody's time with copy and paste he already posted and everybody has read at least ten times, no DNA as byotch beyoku requested and a dispersal chart with a similar Horn origin point, just like my map, nearly the same info which he called nonsense, a fraud in action This is the third time I caught his ass posting very similar information to mine and then saying what I posted was nonsese
you are nonsense
If you take a look at my post with the anthropological and archeological findings you will see that your map is RUBBISH!
One of the examples is the "Berber gene"!
The migration routes in "your" map are simply INCORRECT or even a LIE!
And it's you who is waisting people's time with self created Wikipedia maps which you repeatedly keep posting.
Whereas I post peer reviewed papers to refute your nonsense, with archeology and anthropology. Over a science you don't even understand, called genetics. Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
^^^ look at this, cant explain why, says look at my maps. will the incompetance never end?
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To make it clear, the Berber gene didn't come from the Levant.
Nor did the map posted by the lioness (in fact a bit amateurish itself) or any other serious study ever claimed this (as far as I know). I think the arrow you may refer to is related to J1 in (supposedly high concentration in) Tunisia. According to the preview of the study posted by Beyoku, there's no "berber" M81 genes (or Iberian HUV) genes identified in the Ancient Egyptians remains used in the study. There may be some, but they were not identified in the study posted by Beyoku and Berber didn't match DNA Tribes/JAMA study or the BMJ/Ramses III study in a particular manner either (Berbers do share E hg ancestors on the male side with most African people. MtDNA is another story).
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posted
The point of me talking about the map was to make people think. Its should be obvious now the origin and migration of some sub Saharan lineages - particularity the highly distributed E1b1a has a history that is not quite as clear as we thought. Its presence in North Africa and areas below the equator even may not be as recent as we though. Migration maps of E1a, E2a and E2b dont even exist.
Me calling Lioness dumb as a rock was based on the fact that she (It) posted someone elses work when it was quite clear I was aksing for our OWN work. It would be interesting for the board to see maps created based on what WE hypothesize could have happened....not the nonsense generated from Wikipedia...or the ideas found in piblished Journals which we note time and time again to be just plain wrong. We dont need a degree or background in Genetics for us to hypothesize the movements of Africans we read about and talk about nearly every day.
As for my map here it is. There is a specific reason I dont want to post it but lets see what happens. This is of course somethign rushed. Maybe in 5 minutes. All of these describe events no earlier than maybe 15 thousand years ago. They are not in any particular order. They dont even have to make sense, they just describe possible movements or humans possible carrying E1b1a based on pre-historical events.
A - indicates an origin somewhere in the Western Horn, going by the presence of underived Pn2 and E-329. Northward migration not via the red sea. Old lineages persist in the North and Egypt while the migration in the main heads West. Desertification pushed lineages south and then a late push with Bantu.
B - un-importation Early origin somewhere in the horn for same reason above and a transverse of the Sahel or southern Sahara to concentrate in the Western Sahara. Aridity pushes lineages South but also migration to the East with western Technology. Late push by Bantu.
C - Large Saharan coalescence. Ancestral E1b1a breaks off earlier and pushes Southwest while E1b1a8 and E1b1a7 both have a later central Southern Saharan origin and break in all directions. This scenario basically envisions a southern shift in ALL the E1b1a~ diversity. I would hypothesize a 20 degree latitude shift.
D - Your idea.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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"My idea" based on archeological and anthropological findings. The way population genetics is formulated.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
To make it clear, the Berber gene didn't come from the Levant.
Nor did the map posted by the lioness (in fact a bit amateurish itself) or any other serious study ever claimed this (as far as I know). I think the arrow you may refer to is related to J1 in (supposedly high concentration in) Tunisia. According to the preview of the study posted by Beyoku, there's no "berber" M81 genes (or Iberian HUV) genes identified in the Ancient Egyptians remains used in the study. There may be some, but they were not identified in the study posted by Beyoku and Berber didn't match DNA Tribes/JAMA study or the BMJ/Ramses III study in a particular manner either (Berbers do share E hg ancestors on the male side with most African people. MtDNA is another story).
You are wrong on this account, because euronuts do claim that it came from the Middle East via the Levant. Even in a recent study published at the beginning of this year the withers boldly claimed this. They also claim that Berbers are a proto Arab ethnic group who entered Africa 30-40Kya. Not "just 10Kya". Yes, it has gone worse. They claim the weirdest and most craziest things. Like sub Sahara Africans never entered North Africa, until recently, as slaves. Sound familiar hmmm?
Also, S.O.Y. Keita had to refute similar claims three years ago.
Biocultural Emergence of the Amazigh (Berbers) in Africa: Comment on Frigi et al. (2010)
The arrow I refer to is E1b1b2. It did not come from the region where that arrow starts. Sorry!
For the lack of better, I will use another Wikipedia map. More incoherent with archeological and anthropological findings.
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: Paul C. Sereno mail 2008
Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.
Table 3. Nine human populations sampled for craniometric analysis ranging in age from the Late Pleistocene (ca. 80,000 BP, Aterian) to the mid-Holocene (ca. 4000 BP) and in geographic distribution across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara [18], [19], [26], [27], [54]. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.t003 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002995
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You are wrong on this account, because euronuts do claim that it came from the Middle East via the Levant.
I don't think so. You probably misread things. Care to produce one or 2 of such studies? The map posted the lioness certainly didn't imply anything of the sort. I already produced in this thread the latest Cruciani study demonstrating that E-P2 originate in Africa (eastern Africa). This is of course much after the OOA migration.
Frankly, I can't understand this obsession with Berbers by some people like you on this site since they are not particularly related to Ancient Egyptians in any genetic study. As I said many times, many Berber groups seem African on their male side but admixed with Eurasian (HUV) on their female side. They do share some ancestors with Ancient Egyptians, as any people with African DNA, but probably less than many other African groups due to their admixture. The DNA tribes/JAMA study and the Ramses III/BMJ study didn't match that region either.
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You are wrong on this account, because euronuts do claim that it came from the Middle East via the Levant.
I don't think so. You probably misread things. Care to produce one or 2 of such studies? The map posted the lioness certainly didn't imply anything of the sort. I already produced in this thread the latest Cruciani study demonstrating that E-P2 originate in Africa (eastern Africa). This is of course much after the OOA migration.
Frankly, I can't understand this obsession with Berbers by some people like you on this site since they are not particularly related to Ancient Egyptians in any genetic study. As I said many times, many Berber groups seem African on their male side but admixed with Eurasian (HUV) on their female side. They do share some ancestors with Ancient Egyptians, as any people with African DNA, but probably less than many other African groups due to their admixture. The DNA tribes/JAMA study and the Ramses III/BMJ study didn't match that region either.
Yes, it is the case, read the reference by S.O.Y. Keita.
In fact the whole argument and thesis by lioness is based on this delusional theory.
And it surprises me you aren't familiar with such studies. One of those studies was published by Henn in 2012 another was published by a few guy this year, 2013. I don't know the name of that paper. But someone posted it here as well. I am not sure if it's about Y-chromosomes from Algeria or Libya.
As I told before, I am not an African American. And I have family who are half Moroccan. Let's say, I am an affiliate. Btw, there are a lot of Berbers in this city as well. A lot.
Anyway, I gave Berbers as an example on the errors of that map based on anthropological and archeological findings. And because euronuts try to claim Berbers as caucasions. Which is absolute rubbish and an insult as well. And I have seen euronuts type this rediclous stuff claiming caucasiods living in North Africa for 40Kya. Worse they have remained the same as they looked back them, in other words their cranial morphology has maintained as unchanged for 40Kya in North Africa. Every study on archeological and anthropological study I've posted, they claim was and is about "those caucasoids", who entered back then.
When I show them the caucasoids/ Eurasians were and still are cold adapted, they will claim it's outdated info or claim that they were actually those tropical adapted people the studies speak of. See, we had quit a few of these nuts on this website. One of them is still her, present everyday. Going by the name of lioness. This why lioness always posts in attempts to segregate North Africa from the so called Sub. Unfortunate for euronuts we have an intermediate place called the Sahara and Sahel. But, hey they also claim that. REALLY.
So now you understand my beef!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol is mad becuase he's part Caucasoid
You are delusional. Are Africans part caucasoids?lol
Look how you've treated them during the course of your history in America.
My facial traits are indigenous to Africa and older then yours.
You've got your facial traits from Africans who left Africa in small pockets.
This is why you will find Africans with tropical body portions while yours are cold adapted. Due to living in the crescent for tens and thousands of years, from arctic cold, to now a medium cold climate.
quote: The makers of these assemblages can therefore be seen as (1) a group of Homo sapiens predating and/or contemporary to the out-of-Africa exodus of the species, and (2) geographically one of the (if not the) closest from the main gate to Eurasia at the northeastern corner of the African continent.
Although Moroccan specimens have been discovered far away from this area, they may provide us with one of the best proxies of the African groups that expanded into Eurasia[...]
Troll Patrol is mad at this map but it is because he didn't understnd the arrows.
This map does not show the spread direction of E lineages - so why the worry E-M81, age 5600 yrs the so called Berber marker is E subclade shown on the map as African
There's also an orange line -that represents small percentages of hap G coming in
In human genetics, Haplogroup G (M201) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. It is a branch of Haplogroup F (M89). Haplogroup G has an overall low frequency in most populations but is widely distributed within many ethnic groups of the Old World in Europe (especially in alpine regions), Caucasus, South Asia, western and central Asia, and northern Africa. Age 14-30,000 BP In Africa, haplogroup G is rarely found in sub-Saharan Africa or south of the horn of Africa among native populations. In Egypt, studies have provided information that pegs the G percentage there to be between 2% and 9%.3% of North African Berbers were found to be haplogroup G. 2% of Arab Moroccans and 8% of Berber Moroccans were likewise found to be G.
There's also the J1 in green arrow, coming in from the Mid east failrly high percentages in North Africa
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You are wrong on this account, because euronuts do claim that it came from the Middle East via the Levant.
I don't think so. You probably misread things. Care to produce one or 2 of such studies? The map posted the lioness certainly didn't imply anything of the sort. I already produced in this thread the latest Cruciani study demonstrating that E-P2 originate in Africa (eastern Africa). This is of course much after the OOA migration.
Frankly, I can't understand this obsession with Berbers by some people like you on this site since they are not particularly related to Ancient Egyptians in any genetic study. As I said many times, many Berber groups seem African on their male side but admixed with Eurasian (HUV) on their female side. They do share some ancestors with Ancient Egyptians, as any people with African DNA, but probably less than many other African groups due to their admixture. The DNA tribes/JAMA study and the Ramses III/BMJ study didn't match that region either.
Yes, it is the case, read the reference by S.O.Y. Keita.
In fact the whole argument and thesis by lioness is based on this delusional theory.
And it surprises me you aren't familiar with such studies. One of those studies was published by Henn.
As I told before, I am not an African American. And I have family who are half Moroccan. Let's say, I am an affiliate.
Anyway, I gave Berbers as an example on the errors of that map based on anthropological and archeological findings. And because euronuts try to claim Berbers as caucasions. Which is absolute rubbish and an insult as well.
You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done, but I restricted my recollection to studies related to haplogroups origin and hg migration patterns since this discussion was about the map posted by the lionesss, and the map is about haplogroups, as well as most of this thread. The arrow showed that Berber M81 ultimately originated in Eastern Africa (well, probably in its ancestral state (M215), before the M81 existed, since its rare anywhere else than Northwest Africa). As for various Berbers admixture, there's nothing wrong with having a nice mix of African and Eurasian genes. Determining the origin, and the population structure, of Ancient Egyptians is something else.
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posted
are most African Americans closer to North West Africans or ancient Egyptians?
also:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done,
In your opinion what is the primary resaon you feel that the Henn study was badly done?
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: The point of me talking about the map was to make people think. Its should be obvious now the origin and migration of some sub Saharan lineages - particularity the highly distributed E1b1a has a history that is not quite as clear as we thought. Its presence in North Africa and areas below the equator even may not be as recent as we though. Migration maps of E1a, E2a and E2b dont even exist.
Me calling Lioness dumb as a rock was based on the fact that she (It) posted someone elses work when it was quite clear I was aksing for our OWN work. It would be interesting for the board to see maps created based on what WE hypothesize could have happened....not the nonsense generated from Wikipedia...or the ideas found in piblished Journals which we note time and time again to be just plain wrong. We dont need a degree or background in Genetics for us to hypothesize the movements of Africans we read about and talk about nearly every day.
As for my map here it is. There is a specific reason I dont want to post it but lets see what happens. This is of course somethign rushed. Maybe in 5 minutes. All of these describe events no earlier than maybe 15 thousand years ago. They are not in any particular order. They dont even have to make sense, they just describe possible movements or humans possible carrying E1b1a based on pre-historical events.
A - indicates an origin somewhere in the Western Horn, going by the presence of underived Pn2 and E-329. Northward migration not via the red sea. Old lineages persist in the North and Egypt while the migration in the main heads West. Desertification pushed lineages south and then a late push with Bantu.
B - un-importation Early origin somewhere in the horn for same reason above and a transverse of the Sahel or southern Sahara to concentrate in the Western Sahara. Aridity pushes lineages South but also migration to the East with western Technology. Late push by Bantu.
C - Large Saharan coalescence. Ancestral E1b1a breaks off earlier and pushes Southwest while E1b1a8 and E1b1a7 both have a later central Southern Saharan origin and break in all directions. This scenario basically envisions a southern shift in ALL the E1b1a~ diversity. I would hypothesize a 20 degree latitude shift.
D - Your idea.
Those are interesting hypotheses. I would personally needs much more time than 5 minutes to elaborate my own analysis (especially if I try to corroborate Y-DNA with MtDNA) or even analyze your own in a definitive manner. Since such hg analysis always rely on the modern population genetic structure (as well as other sciences), it is evident that more aDNA study will help very much to elucidate ancient population migration patterns and population structure (haplogroup frequencies). What I retain, and said a couple of times already, is that both hg E-P2 (PN2) and Niger-Kordofanian languages, as well as other African languages, are said to have originated in the same approximate region in eastern Africa. Somehow they found their way to other regions of Africa. I would need more time to even try an hypothesis about the exact way. Just look at the recent study about Mesopotamia and the Indian subcontinent linkage in the other thread. Ancient and modern population structures can be drastically different. With the desertification, greening and re-desertification of the Sahara. It was pretty eventful too. Events which can change population structure (maybe not as drastically than Mesopotamia though, but 30% can turn into 4% and vice versa).
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Troll Patrol is mad at this map but it is because he didn't understnd the arrows.
This map does not show the spread direction of E lineages - so why the worry E-M81, age 5600 yrs the so called Berber marker is E subclade shown on the map as African
There's also an orange line -that represents small percentages of hap G coming in
In human genetics, Haplogroup G (M201) is a Y-chromosome haplogroup. It is a branch of Haplogroup F (M89). Haplogroup G has an overall low frequency in most populations but is widely distributed within many ethnic groups of the Old World in Europe (especially in alpine regions), Caucasus, South Asia, western and central Asia, and northern Africa. Age 14-30,000 BP In Africa, haplogroup G is rarely found in sub-Saharan Africa or south of the horn of Africa among native populations. In Egypt, studies have provided information that pegs the G percentage there to be between 2% and 9%.3% of North African Berbers were found to be haplogroup G. 2% of Arab Moroccans and 8% of Berber Moroccans were likewise found to be G.
There's also the J1 in green arrow, coming in from the Mid east failrly high percentages in North Africa
The above is baseless nonsense. No physical no archeological or even anthropological evidence THERE ARE NO REMIANS OF YOUR TYPE FOUND IN PALEOLITHIC, EPIPALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, NEOLITHIC AFRICA, all you have is mere assumptions. And you know it!
Try to comprehend the words: GENETIC DRIFT!
quote: ".. it appears that Europeans are about two-thirds Asians and one-third African."
--Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza (2000). Genes, peoples and languages. FARRAR STRAUS AND GIROUX Publishers
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: are most African Americans closer to North West Africans or ancient Egyptians?
also:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done,
In your opinion what is the primary resaon you feel that the Henn study was badly done?
I already elaborate on my reasons in the thread dedicated to the Henn study (started by you). Their choice of population samples is too limited for such population structure study. As for the first question, it's subjective, trivial and related to which subjects are chosen specifically. More that the subject is close to so-called sub-Saharan Africans, the closer he will be to Ancient Egyptians, if we believe the current aDNA analysis. For example, Ancient Egyptians doesn't seem to have HUV mtDNA haplogroups or if they have them and is hidden away somehow, it must be at low frequency since none of the study matches those regions.
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posted
The arrow doesn't not direct to East Africa. It starts at near the Levant, suggestive as is it came via or from the Levant. The color of these arrows is clearly different.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: You are wrong on this account, because euronuts do claim that it came from the Middle East via the Levant.
I don't think so. You probably misread things. Care to produce one or 2 of such studies? The map posted the lioness certainly didn't imply anything of the sort. I already produced in this thread the latest Cruciani study demonstrating that E-P2 originate in Africa (eastern Africa). This is of course much after the OOA migration.
Frankly, I can't understand this obsession with Berbers by some people like you on this site since they are not particularly related to Ancient Egyptians in any genetic study. As I said many times, many Berber groups seem African on their male side but admixed with Eurasian (HUV) on their female side. They do share some ancestors with Ancient Egyptians, as any people with African DNA, but probably less than many other African groups due to their admixture. The DNA tribes/JAMA study and the Ramses III/BMJ study didn't match that region either.
Yes, it is the case, read the reference by S.O.Y. Keita.
In fact the whole argument and thesis by lioness is based on this delusional theory.
And it surprises me you aren't familiar with such studies. One of those studies was published by Henn.
As I told before, I am not an African American. And I have family who are half Moroccan. Let's say, I am an affiliate.
Anyway, I gave Berbers as an example on the errors of that map based on anthropological and archeological findings. And because euronuts try to claim Berbers as caucasions. Which is absolute rubbish and an insult as well.
You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done, but I restricted my recollection to studies related to haplogroups origin and hg migration patterns since this discussion was about the map posted by the lionesss, and the map is about haplogroups, as well as most of this thread. The arrow showed that Berber M81 ultimately originated in Eastern Africa (well, probably in its ancestral state (M215), before the M81 existed, since its rare anywhere else than Northwest Africa). As for various Berbers admixture, there's nothing wrong with having a nice mix of African and Eurasian genes. Determining the origin, and the population structure, of Ancient Egyptians is something else.
That's what I'm saying all along.
E1b1b. M215
Ethiopia and Sudan harbor the highest levels (30-40%) of the E1b1b (M215) subclade. The information on the E1b1b (M215) subclade is generally superseded by the information from the descendant lineages. Based on the profile of its distribution and the degree of STR diversity in this subclade, it is believed to originate in East Africa. The TMRCA estimate is 20-26kya and by 17kya this subclade had migrated to Northeast Africa. It may be that the Nile River Valley acted as a migratory corridor for this subclade. This also fits with its higher prevalence among Nilo-Saharan language groups versus Afro-Asiatic language groups.
Btw, the distribution of Hg E-V68 goes back to around 22Kya.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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-Certain "West African" traditions indicate anceint West to East migrations and could in indicative of E1b1a migration. Sahelian crops, Pottery.
-Other genetic clues like, West African TB, Sickle Cell as well as the analysis of physical remains may indicate and affinity of West African/Central African, Saharan people...(Mali, Niger, Benin) with Nile Vally and desert people further East. The Western counter parts could have been E1b1a carriers.
-There are lithic and pottery traditions that connect the Western Deserts of Egypt/Sudan with regions in Chad. Populations in Chad carry E1b1a lineages that were possibly carried by their ancestors.
I could go on and on. The point is the old idea of E1b1b moving all over the place all the time while E1b1a traveled the southern Sahel, Sat in Senegal for 35kya and pushed North after Saharan Desecration with the slave trade and south with the Bantu is not longer on the table. If there are no maps showing the migration of E1b1a carriers based on some of the latest data and aDNA studies then it is up to use to hypothesize such maps ourselves. IMO the future evidence will show that the late push in the East of E-V32 (Having an origin supposedly somewhere in Egypt and a distribution of less than 1%) South into the Horn of Africa will show a parallel pattern with E1b1a disbursing back into Sub Saharan Africa from a similar latitude as Egypt yet in the West. The TMRCA for both lineages in the East and West are pretty much the same.
@ Truthcentric - That is excellent.
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For what it's worth, here's my imagined scenario for the distribution of E1b1a:
Nice Truthcentric. I don't know about the exact ancient migration pattern, but I view it somehow that way in a sketchy manner. Without relying to much on this to make any analysis. Basically, it started in East Africa. They found their way to Ancient Egypt, the Sahara and West Africa. Then the one Bantu migration route from West Africa toward East Africa and the Great Lakes then toward the South and another Bantu migration route directly from West Africa towards the south. But frankly, I never studied those very deeply. As I said already, further aDNA analysis in the Sahara and the rest of Africa will provide more definitive answers.
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ Right, i know it takes more that 5 minutes but it is something that we have all thought about for a long long time. This is what we know.
-E1b1a seems to have a relatively recent push (or return) into Sub Saharan Africa and erased much of the previous diversity in the West.
-Agricultural traditions of the Northern most West Africans (E1b1a carriers) in Senegal is know to have its root further north in Mauritania.
-Elbla was found in Ramesses III, Unknown man E and other unreleased old kingdom Samples. Therefore E1b1a has an ancient presence in North Africa.
-Certain "West African" traditions indicate anceint West to East migrations and could in indicative of E1b1a migration. Sahelian crops, Pottery.
-Other genetic clues like, West African TB, Sickle Cell as well as the analysis of physical remains may indicate and affinity of West African/Central African, Saharan people...(Mali, Niger, Benin) with Nile Vally and desert people further East. The Western counter parts could have been E1b1a carriers.
-There are lithic and pottery traditions that connect the Western Deserts of Egypt/Sudan with regions in Chad. Populations in Chad carry E1b1a lineages that were possibly carried by their ancestors.
I could go on and on. The point is the old idea of E1b1b moving all over the place all the time while E1b1a traveled the southern Sahel, Sat in Senegal for 35kya and pushed North after Saharan Desecration with the slave trade and south with the Bantu is not longer on the table. If there are no maps showing the migration of E1b1a carriers based on some of the latest data and aDNA studies then it is up to use to hypothesize such maps ourselves. IMO the future evidence will show that the late push in the East of E-V32 (Having an origin supposedly somewhere in Egypt and a distribution of less than 1%) South into the Horn of Africa will show a parallel pattern with E1b1a disbursing back into Sub Saharan Africa from a similar latitude as Egypt yet in the West. The TMRCA for both lineages in the East and West are pretty much the same.
@ Truthcentric - That is excellent.
Interesting. A lot of good points. Finding the Benin variety of sickel cell mutation in Ancient Egypt (if the variety is confirmed, I never read the Marin study) as well as pottery from Mali to Ancient Egypt is very interesting. In my opinion, we're not talking about one migration events, but possibly multiples ones taking mostly the same routes but possibly new ones. Some kind of back and forth movements within Africa in ancient times with climatic changes being the main drivers (as well as some technological advancement). Let's recall that African populations usually have the highest level of genetic diversity in the world (so limited bottleneck effect, genetic drift effect, more within Africa admixtures). I would guess that the expansion of E1b1a in West Africa is probably due to population expansion (maybe due to agriculture after the desertification of the Sahara) and absorption of ancient population of much smaller demographic size within those groups. Maybe through patrilineality.
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posted
I would like to know exactly what kind of culture these proto-E1b1a carriers would have had before they started dispersing to Egypt, West Africa, and so on. They must have possessed some degree of cultural complexity if they could spread so far and have such a major genetic impact on the regions they colonized.
I like to think of the Khartoum Mesolithic culture in central Sudan as the cradle of ancient Egyptian and Nubian civilization, but if there is a connection between the Khartoum and the more westerly cultures that have been mentioned, maybe they share ancestry somewhere in the deep mists of African prehistory. This is very exciting!
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I would like to know exactly what kind of culture these proto-E1b1a carriers would have had before they started dispersing to Egypt, West Africa, and so on. They must have possessed some degree of cultural complexity if they could spread so far and have such a major genetic impact on the regions they colonized.
I like to think of the Khartoum Mesolithic culture in central Sudan as the cradle of ancient Egyptian and Nubian civilization, but if there is a connection between the Khartoum and the more westerly cultures that have been mentioned, maybe they share ancestry somewhere in the deep mists of African prehistory. This is very exciting!
Late Pleistocene and Holocene drought events at Lake Tana, the source of the Blue Nile
Michael H. Marshall et al.
Abstract
Magnetic and geochemical core data spanning the last 17,000 years are correlated with new seismic stratigraphy from Lake Tana, Ethiopia, to infer past lake-level change and hence effective precipitation. The data confirm that low lake-level coincides with Heinrich Event 1 (H1) in the North Atlantic, as previously shown from diatom and pollen evidence (Lamb et al., 2007). The lake deepened at 15.3 cal kyr BP and abruptly returned to freshwater conditions, when the lake overflowed into the Blue Nile. Low runoff and lake levels and therefore rainfall are inferred between 13.0 and 12.5 cal kyr BP and may represent southerly suppression of the ITCZ and the associated monsoon front at the time of the Younger Dryas. Two drought episodes occurred at 8.4 and 7.5 cal kyr BP, and are also interpreted as a southward shift in the monsoon front. The first of these events appears to have preceded and been more significant than the 8.2 cal kyr BP. Precipitation declined after 6.8 cal kyr BP, although we do not see an abrupt end to the African Humid Period. This period culminated in a dry episode at ~ 4.2 cal kyr BP, supporting the view that reduced Nile flow was a contributing factor to the demise of the Egyptian Old Kingdom.
Highlights
► 17,000 years of climate change at the source of the Blue Nile, Lake Tana, Ethiopia. ► Southerly suppression of the ITCZ and monsoon front at the time of the Younger Dryas. ► Drought at 8.4 cal kyr BP preceded and was more significant than the “8.2 event”. ► No abrupt end to the so-called African Humid Period. ► Drought at Nile source a factor in the demise of the Egyptian Old Kingdom.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: are most African Americans closer to North West Africans or ancient Egyptians?
also:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done,
In your opinion what is the primary resaon you feel that the Henn study was badly done?
I already elaborate on my reasons in the thread dedicated to the Henn study (started by you). Their choice of population samples is too limited for such population structure study. As for the first question, it's subjective, trivial and related to which subjects are chosen specifically. More that the subject is close to so-called sub-Saharan Africans, the closer he will be to Ancient Egyptians, if we believe the current aDNA analysis. For example, Ancient Egyptians doesn't seem to have HUV mtDNA haplogroups or if they have them and is hidden away somehow, it must be at low frequency since none of the study matches those regions.
This article:
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to Africa Migrations (12,000 ya) Henn et al
is not a general population structure study of Africa like Tishkoff.
It's a study which theme is an estimated back migration from Eurasia into Africa, first wave 12,000 yo Either that happened or it didn't
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: are most African Americans closer to North West Africans or ancient Egyptians?
also:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: You're right about the Henn study (contradicted by the Frigi (2010) study), which is really badly done,
In your opinion what is the primary resaon you feel that the Henn study was badly done?
I already elaborate on my reasons in the thread dedicated to the Henn study (started by you). Their choice of population samples is too limited for such population structure study. As for the first question, it's subjective, trivial and related to which subjects are chosen specifically. More that the subject is close to so-called sub-Saharan Africans, the closer he will be to Ancient Egyptians, if we believe the current aDNA analysis. For example, Ancient Egyptians doesn't seem to have HUV mtDNA haplogroups or if they have them and is hidden away somehow, it must be at low frequency since none of the study matches those regions.
This article:
Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to Africa Migrations (12,000 ya) Henn et al
is not a general population structure study of Africa like Tishkoff.
It's a study which theme is an estimated back migration from Eurasia into Africa, first wave 12,000 yo Either that happened or it didn't
Population genetics works as following.
Show and prove: remains, fossils, archeology, anthropology, etc... then comes genetics. In other words, you must be able to track movements. I truly wonder what part of this you don't understand?
Thus now, we see patterns going from Africa into the Arabian Peninsula. Not the other way around. Likely this is more coherent with the genetic drifts. Ya' Dig?
Now, can you explain why Henn didn't publish the invasions and intrusions by Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Byzantine, Turks, Spaniards, Portuguese Moriscos etc...?
It either happened or it didn't.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
the lioness as usual you avoid touching the crux of my argumentation when caught with your back against the wall. If a study analyzes the population structure of past/ancient population (based on modern people), it should be even more careful. Studies like the one in Mesopotamia linking it to the Indian sub-continent show that it's very dangerous to do that. I personally, think there was indeed a back migration, but I won't use a badly done study to determine the exact population structure of past populations. Even good study, with a lot of different local and neighboring ethnic groups from modern people can be deceiving. Since modern populations (genetic structure, haplotype frequency, etc) are not the same as past populations. In 3000 years, let alone more than that here's been a lot of genetic events, admixture, migration, invasion and population movements. It's obvious, nobody can deny that.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: the lioness as usual you avoid touching the crux of my argumentation when caught with your back against the wall. If a study analyzes the population structure of past/ancient population (based on modern people), it should be even more careful. Studies like the one in Mesopotamia linking it to the Indian sub-continent show that it's very dangerous to do that. I personally, think there was indeed a back migration, but I won't use a badly done study to determine the exact population structure of past populations. Even good study, with a lot of different local and neighboring ethnic groups from modern people can be deceiving. Since modern populations (genetic structure, haplotype frequency, etc) are not the same as past populations. In 3000 years, let alone more than that here's been a lot of genetic events, admixture, migration, invasion and population movements. It's obvious, nobody can deny that.
I happened to bump into this older study. Never the less it's interesting.
quote: ABSTRACT: The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian and Anatolian peoples in ancient times.
Thus, Palestinian- Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences.
The relatively close relatedness of both Jews and Palestinians to western Mediterranean populations reflects the continuous circum-Mediterranean cultural and gene flow that have occurred in prehistoric and historic times. This flow overtly contradicts the demic diffusion model of western Mediterranean populations substitution by agriculturalists coming from the Middle East in the Mesolithic-Neolithic transition. Human Immunology 62, 889-900 (2001). ă American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics, 2001. Published by Elsevier Sciece Inc.
[...]
During the second millennium BC, Egyptian hegemony and Canaanite autonomy were constantly challenged by such ethnically diverse invaders as the Amorites, Hittites, and Hurrians from Anatolia and the East. These invaders, however, were defeated by the Egyptians and absorbed by the Canaanites, who at that time may have numbered about 200,000. Egyptian power began to weaken, and new invaders or autochthonous people appeared or made themselves noticeable [4].
[...]
By 1500-1200 BC the Greek presence was very scarce in Canaan, according to archaeologic records [6]. In fact, the “Mycaenian” Greeks attacked Crete by 1450 BC after rendering tributes to Cretans by a relatively long period.
The Cretan Aegean Sea empire was destroyed and continued by the Mycaenians. Greeks are found to have a substantial HLA gene flow from sub-Saharan Ethiopian and Black people [3,20]. This is why Greeks are Mediterranean outliers in all kind of analyses [19-21,28]. This African genetic and cultural input was documented by Herodotus [33] who states that the daughters of Danaus (who were black) came from Egypt in great numbers to settle in Greece. Also, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came from Egypt [33]. An explanation of the Egypt-to-Greece migration may be that a densely populated Sahara (before 5000 BC) may have contained an admixture of Negroid and Caucasoid populations, and some of the Negroid populations may have migrated by chance or unknown causes towards present day Greece [19,34-36].
This could have occurred when hyperarid Saharan condition become established and large-scale migration occurred in all directions out from the desert. In this case, the most ancient Greek Pelasgian substratum would come from a Negroid stock. A more likely explanation is that at an undetermined time during Egyptian pharaonic times a Black dynasty with their followers were expelled and went towards Greece where they settled [20, 30].
Once an African input to the ancient Greek genetic pool is established, it remains to be determined what the cultural importance of this input is for constructing the classical Hellenistic culture. The reason why a sub- Saharan admixture is not seen in Crete is unclear but may be related to the influential and strong Minoan empire, which hindered foreigners establishment if the African invasion occurred in Minoan times [19, 20].
--Antonio Arnaiz-Villena et al.
The Origin of Palestinians and Their Genetic Relatedness With Other Mediterranean Populations
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: but I won't use a badly done study to determine the exact population structure of past populations.
After any article that gets posted anybody can come in and say the study "was badly done"
This remark has no value unless you can expalin in at least one or two sentences why.
After ANY article you can say "the sample size was not big enough" and then try to dismiss the article on that basis, any article
Yet on this article you cant' use that. All they have do is prove admixture in a particular time period . Once that is proven you don't have to increase the sample size, admixture was already detected in significant amounts.
If some Aliens came down one said "South Africa is comprised of African bantus" Another Alien might say "not completely there are some Europeans there" The fact that he fogot to mention Khosians and other groups does not change the fact that there are some Europeans there.
"The study was flawed" you can say that about any study, without explanation of at least a sentence it means nothing
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It's not related to sample size. You misunderstood what I said, avoid my may points and didn't read the thread you started, as I suggested above, dedicated to that study where I lay out my argumentation. And this have nothing to do with haplogroup origin.
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posted
give me in two sentences why the Henn article is "badly done". You have to be able tu summarize to prove you have a handle on the topic rather than saying well, a few months ago I tangled with that in another thread and I forgot what my main point was but I know I won the argument, somewhere in that 20 page thread I was kickin azz
Posts: 42930 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: give me in two sentences why the Henn article is "badly done". You have to be able tu summarize to prove you have a handle on the topic rather than saying well, a few months ago I tangled with that in another thread and I forgot what my main point was but I know I won the argument, somewhere in that 20 page thread I was kickin azz
The problem is that it's off topic for this thread. But lets say, for one, it's not judicious to use modern populations to analyze ancient populations genetic structure. Second, Henn used populations which have no or limited genetic or historical link with North Africa, so it's impossible for him to analyze the contribution of any population to North Africa that way. For example, some clusters can antedate the presence of people in North Africa while their presence in North Africa can be older or younger (some clusters could have existed outside Africa for example and be carried out in North Africa later on). Or for example, it's like saying there's almost not any Indo-European contribution in North Africa by comparing the genes (finding clusters) with people in India. This is thoroughly explained in the other thread you started. Even Henn, use words like "likely" and other words like that since this is all speculative on his part. Finding clusters and interpreting them is a different thing. At last, there's always problem with population sample size to gauge how representative they are, but this is common to many population structure studies. Can you use 50 Finnish people or 50 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole?
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Can you use 30 Finnish people or 30 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole? [/QB]
there you go again. It's not about the nature of NA as a whole. It's about finding genetic evidence that might be a back migration from Eurasiai 12K ago,
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Can you use 30 Finnish people or 30 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole?
there you go again. It's not about the nature of NA as a whole. It's about finding genetic evidence that might be a back migration from Eurasiai 12K ago, [/URL] [/QB]
You do that by analyzing population genetic structure (you find population genetic structures like clusters then date them by estimation). That's what the study you talk about did. Its obvious. And again, you avoid the crux of my argumentation even if you're the one who ask for it. You're lame and an idiot. If you avoid my main arguments, why should I bother answering you?
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Can you use 30 Finnish people or 30 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole?
When the comparative populations have a measure of distance to one another (as is the case here), you can. For instance, there is nothing preventing a Finnish genome from being a good proxy for Euro-American ancestry in African Americans. As I have told you a thousand times (but to no avail), the purpose of that paper wasn't to use their sample set as a proxy for Northern Africa as a whole. Even if it was, if I were to ask you what population is missing in their analysis you wouldn't be able put money where your mouth is and concretize your objections towards the Henn 2012 paper by listing populations that you feel were left out, and demonstrating that their ancestry isn't already duplicated by one of the comparative samples. Go ahead, list them.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Can you use 30 Finnish people or 30 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole?
there you go again. It's not about the nature of NA as a whole. It's about finding genetic evidence that might be a back migration from Eurasiai 12K ago,
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Can you use 30 Finnish people or 30 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole?
When the comparative populations have a measure of distance to one another (as is the case here), you can. For instance, there is nothing preventing a Finnish genome from being a good proxy for Euro-American ancestry in African Americans. As I have told you a thousand times (but to no avail), the purpose of that paper wasn't to use their sample set as a proxy for Northern Africa as a whole. Even if it was, if I were to ask you what population is missing in their analysis you wouldn't be able put money where your mouth is and concretize your objections towards the Henn 2012 paper by listing populations that you feel were left out, and demonstrating that their ancestry isn't already duplicated by one of the comparative samples. Go ahead, list them.
You're the doing the same thing as the lioness and counter argument only the part that I already admitted was done by many genetic studies instead of counter argumenting the crux of my argumentation.
As for naming population, I don't remember the populations used by Henn, but any other populations not used in the study is good (the further away - in term of genetic distance- all the better obviously). Let's say the African-American males and the Mbo and Bangwa people with their A00 mutations (and other related or not related mutations of course) could be an easy to understand example. Clearly those populations have mutations which weren't tested in the study.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: [why should I bother answering you?
becasue it looks like you're fronting right now
It looks more to me like you're the one who is fronting. [/QB]
You are expecting an answer from someone who is arrogant and above all ignorant. It makes no sense, from someone who reiterates an argument without giving fundamental explanation to a conclusion.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Can you use 30 Finnish people or 30 Yoruba people and claim they represent Europe and Africa as a whole?
When the comparative populations have a measure of distance to one another (as is the case here), you can. For instance, there is nothing preventing a Finnish genome from being a good proxy for Euro-American ancestry in African Americans. As I have told you a thousand times (but to no avail), the purpose of that paper wasn't to use their sample set as a proxy for Northern Africa as a whole. Even if it was, if I were to ask you what population is missing in their analysis you wouldn't be able put money where your mouth is and concretize your objections towards the Henn 2012 paper by listing populations that you feel were left out, and demonstrating that their ancestry isn't already duplicated by one of the comparative samples. Go ahead, list them. [/qb]
You're the doing the same thing as the lioness and counter argument only the part that I already admitted was done by many genetic studies instead of counter argumenting the crux of my argumentation.
As for naming population, I don't remember the populations used by Henn, but any other populations not used in the study is good (the further away - in term of genetic distance- all the better obviously). Let's say the African-American males and the Mbo and Bangwa people with their A00 mutations (and other related or not related mutations of course) could be an easy to understand example. Clearly those populations have mutations which weren't tested in the study. [/QB]
What other arguments? You aren't even using arguments worth arguing over. All you ever do is sit in the corner with your arms crossed and say something is so and others just have to take your word for it. You say the sample set was too limited, but based on what, other than your uninformed opinion? You say using modern populations to discern ancient population structure is unwarranted, but based on what, other than your uninformed opinion? You invoke the A00 carrier and imply that the people who carry such lineages are different from others in the populations they were pooled from, autosomally, based on what, other than your uninformed opinion? You say including populations who were historically distant to Northern Africa would complement their sample set, but based on what, other than your uninformed opinion? I could go on all day long, but the fact of the matter is that all these objections only show that you're uninformed. No one well versed in science would protest to the universal practice of using a highly relevant but very limited stand-in sample to test hypotheses. No one well versed in science would ignore the authors' stated hypotheses and chastise them for not testing hypotheses that they never set out to test and that you're projecting onto them. By these shaky objections, every paper can be discredited at some random person's whim.
I asked you to list examples of extant population ancestries with historical links to North Africa, that were supposedly not among the studied populations, and then you prove my observation that you're just baselessly complaining. You're masking your inability to comply with my very simple request by doing everything in the book other than backing up:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Second, Henn used populations which have no or limited genetic or historical link with North Africa, so it's impossible for him to analyze the contribution of any population to North Africa that way.
posted
^^^ I just hope people can see through your bullshit.
I have effectively listed some known populations that were left out, and have demonstrated that their ancestry isn't already duplicated by one of the comparative samples. Who knows where the Mbo/Bangwa and other A00 ancestors were in the past in Africa. Maybe some of their ancestors were in North Africa.
There could be unknown (yet) populations too.
Any populations that have different mutations than the ones used in the study is good. For example, ancient San-like and "pygmy"-like people could have been roaming the Sahara and North Africa in the past. Maybe some Nilo-Saharan people like the Tibu got different mutations not covered by the study (or even ever found for that matter, do you understand that? That's why I mentioned the lack of samples from neighboring North African region so people can visualize the issue. Lack of samples means we don't know. So can't conclude anything). Same thing with some Niger-Congo speakers like the Dogon. In fact, any population not covered in the study, like the Dogon, can have mutations (thus part of their ancestry) not covered by their small samples of people.
Even doing a population structure analysis and supposing there wasn't ever any pygmy-like people or whatever people (like the Dogon ancestors aka part of their ancestry) in North Africa is wrong. As I said, finding clusters and analyzing it is something different. If you begin by presupposing a lot of things, it's obvious you're directing the results toward something you want. Even the study talks about "likely" ancestry and thus temper its own conclusion but it also says the only African presence in North Africa is relatively recent. And the Frigi study is one example of a study contradicting him about ancient African presence in North Africa.
quote:This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP.
- Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Frigi (2010)Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:who knows where the Mbo/Bangwa and other A00 ancestors were in the past in Africa.
Y chromosome A00 is merely a preserved archaic lineage; it has nothing to do with the current autosomal makeup of the bearers of that lineage, whatsoever. If the modern day bearers of A00 had autosomal DNA consistent with that haplogroup, they would look like and behave like ape-like archaic humans (which I'm sure isn't where you were intending to go with that side-rant about A00.) Even here you display your ignorance of the matter at hand. Just randomly grasping at straws to save your hide.
quote:Any population that have different mutations than the ones used in the study is good.
First they were too liberal with their sample choices (re: "the samples have no genetic or historical link with northern Africa"), now you're criticising them for not being more liberal, because "any extra sample is good." You're just saving face at this point. Again, name the populations you deem missing from Henn et al, that have relevant historical ties with northern Africa, whose ancestries aren't represented among the stand-in samples. This time, without switching your pitch.
quote:This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP.
Frigi et al are talking about L3* here (possibly L3k.) Again, these are haplogroups whose autosomal correlates are long gone or dwindled to the point of negligibility, just like European L bearers of admixture events of 10k years ago may not even have any detectable African autosomal counterparts of that admixture event. Besides, the autosomal correlate of L3* would have affinity with the genetic material of the sampled East African populations in Henn's sample set, so where does that leave you? Certainly not with evidence of some "unsampled population" to advance your baseless tirade against Henn's choice of samples.
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posted
One of the most profound arguments by Fergi is:
This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa.Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
If you look at England and you notice some people there have brown hair and you make the statement "some people in England have brown hair" then somebody steps in and says you can't say that becuase you didn't mention the black, blond and red haired people, that's not fair.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Frigi did not prove that high frequencies of H in berbers are African in origin
That's true, he did touch the subject but didn't continue on it, since it's a bit obscure, however:
quote:Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia.
Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement.
More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed.
The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago.
The objective by these North African scientists was made clear.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: If you look at England and you notice some people there have brown hair and you make the statement "some people in England have brown hair" then somebody steps in and says you can't say that becuase you didn't mention the black, blond and red haired people, that's not fair.
Some people in England are mixed, "biracial", English-Caribbean. They should take their autosomal markers and represent them as fact for the overall population of England.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: ^ Right, i know it takes more that 5 minutes but it is something that we have all thought about for a long long time. This is what we know.
-E1b1a seems to have a relatively recent push (or return) into Sub Saharan Africa and erased much of the previous diversity in the West.
-Agricultural traditions of the Northern most West Africans (E1b1a carriers) in Senegal is know to have its root further north in Mauritania.
-Elbla was found in Ramesses III, Unknown man E and other unreleased old kingdom Samples. Therefore E1b1a has an ancient presence in North Africa.
-Certain "West African" traditions indicate anceint West to East migrations and could in indicative of E1b1a migration. Sahelian crops, Pottery.
-Other genetic clues like, West African TB, Sickle Cell as well as the analysis of physical remains may indicate and affinity of West African/Central African, Saharan people...(Mali, Niger, Benin) with Nile Vally and desert people further East. The Western counter parts could have been E1b1a carriers.
-There are lithic and pottery traditions that connect the Western Deserts of Egypt/Sudan with regions in Chad. Populations in Chad carry E1b1a lineages that were possibly carried by their ancestors.
I could go on and on. The point is the old idea of E1b1b moving all over the place all the time while E1b1a traveled the southern Sahel, Sat in Senegal for 35kya and pushed North after Saharan Desecration with the slave trade and south with the Bantu is not longer on the table. If there are no maps showing the migration of E1b1a carriers based on some of the latest data and aDNA studies then it is up to use to hypothesize such maps ourselves. IMO the future evidence will show that the late push in the East of E-V32 (Having an origin supposedly somewhere in Egypt and a distribution of less than 1%) South into the Horn of Africa will show a parallel pattern with E1b1a disbursing back into Sub Saharan Africa from a similar latitude as Egypt yet in the West. The TMRCA for both lineages in the East and West are pretty much the same.
@ Truthcentric - That is excellent.
This is an interesting post, so I quote it all, but what "West African" traditions do you refer to that mention a West to East migration?
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