quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Come on buddy: You came at me with your insults, out of nowhere in the misguidedly-disguised form of playing some sort of a "peace-maker". My issue is with just swenet, at this point, as anybody with half a brain knows that I do partake in civil exchanges with those who conduct themselves accordingly. Anyone else who got thrashed thereby invited it upon one self when he/she decided to play the emotional cheerleader and come at me the wrong way. That suggests to me, that you are bad at lying, since you are obviously trying to "prove something", however bad at it you are.
I have nothing to prove, nor do I want to prove anything, I'm basically retired at this mess. You OTOH, let Swenet bait you into the insults since he started in this topic so he's an agitator, you feel for the bait, how does that make you look? lol
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Trust me, nobody baits me to do what I have no desire in doing in the first place. I saw an opportunity to make some points, even if it means using the most unenlightened reactionary personalities to do it--which is often never easy...just as you did with Evil Euro and a whole host of other such characters...unless you were gullible enough to be baited likewise?
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Trust me, nobody baits me to do what I have no desire in doing in the first place. I saw an opportunity to make some points, even if it means using the most unenlightened reactionary personalities to do it--which is often never easy...just as you did with Evil Euro and a whole host of other such characters...unless you were gullible enough to be baited likewise?
I always had a plan for each specific opponent but my foundation was always rooted in the truth, not ideology.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
It's simple for me; you see ideology in my message, produce the proof. Nothing says ideology more than nutty toothless allegations.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Like the mindless Nancy boy fag you are?
I'll let you rave on with your non-replies. When you're done wiping the foam out your mouth, you can address this with actual (counter)evidence, and prove there is more to you than an amygdala- led heap a sh!t, who is only good at running: running your mouth and running away when it comes to substantiating your wacky dogmatic theories.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: SLC45A2 was not mentioned in the text you want to wish it in, that's how irrelevant it is.
Lying ass fraud, you're quite uncreative with your repetitive, shaky-legged, amygdala triggered non- replies to my very simple question:
how is the paper associated with citation number 46 (and the skin pigmentation genes mentioned therein), not the focal point of what Pagani et al mean when they say ''other genes''? --Swenet
and this:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: See above: initial selection in the sub-tropical region of the Sahara.
The admixture event dates to 3kya. You're not going to wish this admixture event away by assigning Ethiopians a fabricated origin in the Sahara. The Syria-like genetic component would still have to become an important genetic contribution, even within your shitty scenario. Not to mention, the hard to swallow pill that this component has an obvious connection to derived SLC24A5 in Ethiopians, also seems to have slipped through the gaping holes of your ''Sahara'' figment.
Other than that, I sure would like to see the pre-defeated piece of evidence that warrants this misty ''Sahara'' scenario, where the sampled Cushitic-Speakers are somehow not the descendants of Axum era equatorial populations, but of some Northern entity that's solely the product of your rabid imagination.
Moreover, how does selection on the derived gene in Ethiopians qualify as a remnant of some imaginary proto population in the Sahara, when the other Ethiopians (Omotic speakers), who derive from the exact same ancestral populations (they only vary from Cushitic-Semitic speakers in their amount of Syrian-like ancestry), don't have excesses of the derived gene?
It would also be nice to see the ecological specifics you've gathered before you went public with that claptrap theory, so as to make sure you wouldn't be making a complete ass out of yourself, by suggesting that light skin is advantageous in the Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: It's simple for me; you see ideology in my message, produce the proof. Nothing says ideology more than nutty toothless allegations.
When did I say that I see ideology in your message? smh, you only visualise what you want to see.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Like the mindless Nancy boy fag you are?
I'll let you rave on with your non-replies. When you're done wiping the foam out your mouth, you can address this with actual (counter)evidence, and prove there is more to you than an amygdala- led heap a sh!t, who is only good for running: running your mouth and running away when it comes to substantiating your wacky dogmatic theories.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: SLC45A2 was not mentioned in the text you want to wish it in, that's how irrelevant it is.
Lying ass fraud, you're quite uncreative with your repetitive, shaky-legged, amygdala triggered non- replies to my very simple question:
how is the paper associated with citation number 46 (and the skin pigmentation genes mentioned therein), not the focal point of what Pagani et al mean when they say ''other genes''? --Swenet
and this:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: See above: initial selection in the sub-tropical region of the Sahara.
The admixture event dates to 3kya. You're not going to wish this admixture event away by assigning Ethiopians a fabricated origin in the Sahara. The Syria-like genetic component would still have to become an important genetic contribution, even within your shitty scenario. Not to mention, the hard to swallow pill that this component has an obvious connection to derived SLC24A5 in Ethiopians, also seems to have slipped through the gaping holes of your ''Sahara'' figment.
Other than that, I sure would like to see the pre-defeated piece of evidence that warrants this misty ''Sahara'' scenario, where the sampled Cushitic-Speakers are somehow not the descendants of Axum era equatorial populations, but of some Northern entity that's solely the product of your rabid imagination.
Moreover, how does selection on the derived gene in Ethiopians qualify as a remnant of some imaginary proto population in the Sahara, when the other Ethiopians (Omotic speakers), who derive from the exact same ancestral populations (they only vary from Cushitic-Semitic speakers in their amount of Syrian-like ancestry), don't have excesses of the derived gene?
It would also be nice to see the ecological specifics you've gathered before you went public with that claptrap theory, so as to make sure you wouldn't be making a complete ass out of yourself, by suggesting that light skin is advantageous in the Sahara.
You say this event of "admixture" goes back to 3,000 years ok, what demographic event is this associated with and how do we know said people carried this gene with them? The so called "more like the Levant" phrase in that paper could well mean some where in Egypt since it peaks higher in Africa than outside of Africa.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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..initial selection in the sub-tropical region of the Sahara.
I think this is a reasonable starting basis for an indigenous scenario. You made no claim that all developments were strictly confined to Ethiopia but include the broad Saharan zone, which extends all the way across the continent just above the Horn of Africa. Said zone has had diverse climatic fluctuations over time, so it is reasonable also to talk about a sub-tropical region, and the "Saharan pump" influenced population movements across the board. "Diffusion" incorporates movement internal to and within Africa.
Nor have you excluded the possibility that "Eurasian" gene flow entered the region at some time. Such flow is not incompatible with a primarily indigenous origin. Both can co-exist with the primary weight being indigenous.
Can you think of an analogous situation where the presence of "outside" gene variants in a population was not associated with other typical gene variants seen in said "outside" population? Within Africa? Asia? Americas? I think this argument's model, as it develops, shows potential for future reference.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote: Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: I think this is a reasonable starting basis for an indigenous scenario.
Instead of the discussion moving forward, its moving backward. Hard science, and even already established observations are being rejected over vague ''possibilities'' and ''reasonable scenarios''. By ''reasonable scenario'', do you mean ''consistent with my vested interests''? I sure would like to see what is reasonable about the notion that sub-tropical latitudes are causative of light skin.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: I think this is a reasonable starting basis for an indigenous scenario.
Instead of the discussion moving forward, its moving backward. Hard science, and even already established observations are being rejected over vague ''possibilities'' and ''reasonable scenarios''. I sure would like to see what is reasonable about the notion that sub-tropical latitudes are causative of light skin.
I asked you a simply question and you have to understand, these geneticists are NOT actually providing "hard science" in the sense of indisputable facts, they said in that paper that the "Eurasian" mixture in Ethiopians was more like observed in the Levant than that in Arabia, well I'm asking you, what demographic event is this associated with? If you can't connect it with one then that conclusion has to be called into question, simple and plain. For example........Geneticists at one time said Negroids, Caucasoids, and Mongoloids all split off genetically from each other hundreds of thousands of years ago, but there was a problem with that....the splits happened at a time when there were NO modern humans in Europe and Asia so what does that mean? The splits represented deep population substructure within Africa, you have to have all pieces of the puzzle to get the bigger picture.....
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: You say this event of "admixture" goes back to 3,000 years ok, what demographic event is this associated with and how do we know said people carried this gene with them? The so called "more like the Levant" phrase in that paper could well mean some where in Egypt since it peaks higher in Africa than outside of Africa. [/QB]
Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa 2013
Joseph K. Pickrell et al.
The history of southern Africa involved interactions between indigenous hunter-gatherers and a range of populations that moved into the region. Here we use genome-wide genetic data to show that there are at least two admixture events in the history of Khoisan populations (southern African hunter-gatherers and pastoralists who speak non-Bantu languages with click consonants). One involved populations related to Niger-Congo-speaking African populations, and the other introduced ancestry most closely related to west Eurasian (European or Middle Eastern) populations. We date this latter admixture event to approximately 900-1,800 years ago, and show that it had the largest demographic impact in Khoisan populations that speak Khoe-Kwadi languages. A similar signal of west Eurasian ancestry is present throughout eastern Africa. In particular, we also find evidence for two admixture events in the history of Kenyan, Tanzanian, and Ethiopian populations, the earlier of which involved populations related to west Eurasians and which we date to approximately 2,700 - 3,300 years ago. We reconstruct the allele frequencies of the putative west Eurasian population in eastern Africa, and show that this population is a good proxy for the west Eurasian ancestry in southern Africa. The most parsimonious explanation for these findings is that west Eurasian ancestry entered southern Africa indirectly through eastern Africa.
When did I say that I see ideology in your message? smh, you only visualise what you want to see.
Not really. Seeing as how you mentioned that you were not forwarding ideology in your dealings with certain mentioned posters when no accusation was made to that end, and how I was the only one exchanging words with you at the time, your remark came across as underhandedly suggesting that perhaps I advance ideology.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.: You say this event of "admixture" goes back to 3,000 years ok, what demographic event is this associated with and how do we know said people carried this gene with them? The so called "more like the Levant" phrase in that paper could well mean some where in Egypt since it peaks higher in Africa than outside of Africa.
Ancient west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa 2013
Joseph K. Pickrell et al.
The history of southern Africa involved interactions between indigenous hunter-gatherers and a range of populations that moved into the region. Here we use genome-wide genetic data to show that there are at least two admixture events in the history of Khoisan populations (southern African hunter-gatherers and pastoralists who speak non-Bantu languages with click consonants). One involved populations related to Niger-Congo-speaking African populations, and the other introduced ancestry most closely related to west Eurasian (European or Middle Eastern) populations. We date this latter admixture event to approximately 900-1,800 years ago, and show that it had the largest demographic impact in Khoisan populations that speak Khoe-Kwadi languages. A similar signal of west Eurasian ancestry is present throughout eastern Africa. In particular, we also find evidence for two admixture events in the history of Kenyan, Tanzanian, and Ethiopian populations, the earlier of which involved populations related to west Eurasians and which we date to approximately 2,700 - 3,300 years ago. We reconstruct the allele frequencies of the putative west Eurasian population in eastern Africa, and show that this population is a good proxy for the west Eurasian ancestry in southern Africa. The most parsimonious explanation for these findings is that west Eurasian ancestry entered southern Africa indirectly through eastern Africa.
Only one problem with this Lyingness, this paper says the Eurasian mixture in Ethiopians came from Arabia, which is contra to what the Pagani paper said which stated it came from the Levant and not Arabia so what I see at play here are geneticists who are not familiar with the archaeological history of the regions trying to connect admixture with Biblical stories, that story of the Quen of Sheba was told hundreds of years AFTER the suggested first contact between Ethiopians and Southern Arabians, get with the program...........
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
I think this is a reasonable starting basis for an indigenous scenario. You made no claim that all developments were strictly confined to Ethiopia but include the broad Saharan zone, which extends all the way across the continent just above the Horn of Africa. Said zone has had diverse climatic fluctuations over time, so it is reasonable also to talk about a sub-tropical region, and the "Saharan pump" influenced population movements across the board. "Diffusion" incorporates movement internal to and within Africa.
"Climatic fluctuations over time" only become a factor in population movements, but as far as DNA like the SLC24A5 marker are concerned, their association with skin pigmentation as an adaptive trait is only correlative with the UV radiation environment, which as I already noted, does not change over time...at least not in the sense that the sub-tropical regions turn tropical or vice versa. The slight wobbles that the Earth goes through when spinning only decisively effect general weather conditions, which can change on a daily basis.
quote: Nor have you excluded the possibility that "Eurasian" gene flow entered the region at some time. Such flow is not incompatible with a primarily indigenous origin. Both can co-exist with the primary weight being indigenous.
Of course I am not excluding the prospect of "Eurasian gene flow"; I just think that it is overemphasized in the ancestry of some Africans or the other, whenever a gene pool does not fit Eurocentered stereotypes of what is "African" and "non-African". I'm of the mindset that much of what is dismissed in some circles as "Eurasian" in such groups like Ethiopians, are actually of local African origin, and one such area that was very likely home to such ancestry, was the Sahara, and that a smaller element may actually be attributable to gene flow from outside than is generally acknowledged.
There is no doubt that there is an underlying genetic structuring that can be characterized as "African" and "OOA", only because the latter is a subset of the former, but that does not mean that a direct African origin cannot be attributed to major clades that characterize OOA gene pools, simply because they are proportionately more prominent in OOA gene pools than in the African genetic landscape.
quote: Can you think of an analogous situation where the presence of "outside" gene variants in a population was not associated with other typical gene variants seen in said "outside" population? Within Africa? Asia? Americas? I think this argument's model, as it develops, shows potential for future reference.
I want to emphasis that I don't come up with scenarios just because they sound good, or simply on the grounds that they are possible; I build the most plausible scenario based on what the weight of evidence is suggesting.
To your question: The other instance I can think of, could well be the San hunter-gatherer case, where it has been noted that the downstream variant of OCA2, which is also associated with "light skin" in Asian groups, is prominent. The San may share this allele with east Asians, where it is said to occur at high frequencies, but this does not mean that the San share the same skin pigmentation genetic profiles with east Asians. The "derived" variant of the SLC24A5 allele in other sub-Saharan groups could well also be a case where other skin pigmentation markers found in "west Eurasians" are not represented.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Come on Bass...not calling him correctly as Lioness because of WHAT!?! ..immaturity or self esteem.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bass...not calling him correctly as Lioness because of WHAT!?! ..immaturity or self esteem.
A man named lioness, wth?
quote:The two genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 were recently identified as major determinants of pigmentation in humans and in other vertebrates. The allele p.A111T in the former gene and the allele p.L374F in the latter gene are both nearly fixed in light-skinned Europeans, and can therefore be considered ancestry informative marker (AIMs). AIMs are becoming useful for forensic identification of the phenotype from a DNA profile sampled, for example, from a crime scene. Here, we generate new allelic data for these two genes from samples of Chinese, Uygurs, Ghanaians, South African Xhosa, South African Europeans, and Sri Lankans (Tamils and Sinhalese). Our data confirm the earlier results and furthermore demonstrate that the SLC45A2 allele is a more specific AIM than the SLC24A5 allele because the former clearly distinguishes the Sri Lankans from the Europeans. Authors
--Soejima M, Koda Y, Population differences of two coding SNPs in pigmentation-related genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.
Source Int. J. Legal Med. 2007 Jan; 121(1):36-9. Institution Department of Forensic Medicine and Human Genetics, Kurume University School of Medicine, Kurume, 830-0011, Japan.
posted
Mike will find this useful. HERC2 is the new SLC45A2. Alps Iceman was negative for SLC45a2 positive for HERC2. However they are unsure whether HERC2 code for brown blue eyes.
Keep in mind the SLC45A2 or even HERC2 does not translate to a light skin phenotype.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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.Geneticists at one time said Negroids, Caucasoids, and Mongoloids all split off genetically from each other hundreds of thousands of years ago, but there was a problem with that....the splits happened at a time when there were NO modern humans in Europe and Asia so what does that mean? The splits represented deep population substructure within Africa, you have to have all pieces of the puzzle to get the bigger picture.....
^^Can you provide a recent reference Bass? What scholars show the splits occurring when there were no modern humans, and that said splits represent deep population substructure within Africa?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ Yeah, man!
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bass...not calling him correctly as Lioness because of WHAT!?! ..immaturity or self esteem.
A man named lioness, wth?
quote:The two genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 were recently identified as major determinants of pigmentation in humans and in other vertebrates. The allele p.A111T in the former gene and the allele p.L374F in the latter gene are both nearly fixed in light-skinned Europeans, and can therefore be considered ancestry informative marker (AIMs). AIMs are becoming useful for forensic identification of the phenotype from a DNA profile sampled, for example, from a crime scene. Here, we generate new allelic data for these two genes from samples of Chinese, Uygurs, Ghanaians, South African Xhosa, South African Europeans, and Sri Lankans (Tamils and Sinhalese). Our data confirm the earlier results and furthermore demonstrate that the SLC45A2 allele is a more specific AIM than the SLC24A5 allele because the former clearly distinguishes the Sri Lankans from the Europeans. Authors
--Soejima M, Koda Y, Population differences of two coding SNPs in pigmentation-related genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.
Source Int. J. Legal Med. 2007 Jan; 121(1):36-9. Institution Department of Forensic Medicine and Human Genetics, Kurume University School of Medicine, Kurume, 830-0011, Japan.
edit- Patrol what do you have as to a skin color distribution chart worldwide?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^^ What the shades of humanity are predicted to be generated from the regression analysis model
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
.Geneticists at one time said Negroids, Caucasoids, and Mongoloids all split off genetically from each other hundreds of thousands of years ago, but there was a problem with that....the splits happened at a time when there were NO modern humans in Europe and Asia so what does that mean? The splits represented deep population substructure within Africa, you have to have all pieces of the puzzle to get the bigger picture.....
^^Can you provide a recent reference Bass? What scholars show the splits occurring when there were no modern humans, and that said splits represent deep population substructure within Africa?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ Yeah, man!
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bass...not calling him correctly as Lioness because of WHAT!?! ..immaturity or self esteem.
A man named lioness, wth?
quote:The two genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 were recently identified as major determinants of pigmentation in humans and in other vertebrates. The allele p.A111T in the former gene and the allele p.L374F in the latter gene are both nearly fixed in light-skinned Europeans, and can therefore be considered ancestry informative marker (AIMs). AIMs are becoming useful for forensic identification of the phenotype from a DNA profile sampled, for example, from a crime scene. Here, we generate new allelic data for these two genes from samples of Chinese, Uygurs, Ghanaians, South African Xhosa, South African Europeans, and Sri Lankans (Tamils and Sinhalese). Our data confirm the earlier results and furthermore demonstrate that the SLC45A2 allele is a more specific AIM than the SLC24A5 allele because the former clearly distinguishes the Sri Lankans from the Europeans. Authors
--Soejima M, Koda Y, Population differences of two coding SNPs in pigmentation-related genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.
Source Int. J. Legal Med. 2007 Jan; 121(1):36-9. Institution Department of Forensic Medicine and Human Genetics, Kurume University School of Medicine, Kurume, 830-0011, Japan.
edit- Patrol what do you have as to a skin color distribution chart worldwide?
quote: Biochemistry and Histology of Different Skin Types (A) Activation of the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) promotes the synthesis of eumelanin at the expense of pheomelanin, although oxidation of tyrosine by tyrosinase (TYR) is required for synthesis of both pigment types. The membrane-associated transport protein (MATP) and the pink-eyed dilution protein (P) are melanosomal membrane components that contribute to the extent of pigment synthesis within melanosomes. (B) There is a gradient of melanosome size and number in dark, intermediate, and light skin; in addition, melanosomes of dark skin are more widely dispersed. This diagram is based on one published by Sturm et al. (1998) and summarizes data from Szabo et al. (1969), Toda et al. (1972), and Konrad and Wolff (1973) based on individuals whose recent ancestors were from Africa, Asia, or Europe.
--Barsh GS PLoS Biol. 2003 Oct;1(1):E27. Epub 2003 Oct 13. What controls variation in human skin color?
quote:It is widely assumed that genes that influence variation in skin and hair pigmentation are under selection. To date, the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) is the only gene identified that explains substantial phenotypic variance in human pigmentation. Here we investigate MC1R polymorphism in several populations, for evidence of selection. We conclude that MC1R is under strong functional constraint in Africa, where any diversion from eumelanin production (black pigmentation) appears to be evolutionarily deleterious. Although many of the MC1R amino acid variants observed in non-African populations do affect MC1R function and contribute to high levels of MC1R diversity in Europeans, we found no evidence, in either the magnitude or the patterns of diversity, for its enhancement by selection; rather, our analyses show that levels of MC1R polymorphism simply reflect neutral expectations under relaxation of strong functional constraint outside Africa.
--Am J Hum Genet. 2000 Apr;66(4):1351-61. Epub 2000 Mar 24. Evidence for variable selective pressures at MC1R. Harding RM, Healy E, Ray AJ, Ellis NS, Flanagan N, Todd C, Dixon C, Sajantila A, Jackson IJ, Birch-Machin MA, Rees JL.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
.Geneticists at one time said Negroids, Caucasoids, and Mongoloids all split off genetically from each other hundreds of thousands of years ago, but there was a problem with that....the splits happened at a time when there were NO modern humans in Europe and Asia so what does that mean? The splits represented deep population substructure within Africa, you have to have all pieces of the puzzle to get the bigger picture.....
^^Can you provide a recent reference Bass? What scholars show the splits occurring when there were no modern humans, and that said splits represent deep population substructure within Africa?
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^ Yeah, man!
quote:Originally posted by .Charlie Bass.:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Come on Bass...not calling him correctly as Lioness because of WHAT!?! ..immaturity or self esteem.
A man named lioness, wth?
quote:The two genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2 were recently identified as major determinants of pigmentation in humans and in other vertebrates. The allele p.A111T in the former gene and the allele p.L374F in the latter gene are both nearly fixed in light-skinned Europeans, and can therefore be considered ancestry informative marker (AIMs). AIMs are becoming useful for forensic identification of the phenotype from a DNA profile sampled, for example, from a crime scene. Here, we generate new allelic data for these two genes from samples of Chinese, Uygurs, Ghanaians, South African Xhosa, South African Europeans, and Sri Lankans (Tamils and Sinhalese). Our data confirm the earlier results and furthermore demonstrate that the SLC45A2 allele is a more specific AIM than the SLC24A5 allele because the former clearly distinguishes the Sri Lankans from the Europeans. Authors
--Soejima M, Koda Y, Population differences of two coding SNPs in pigmentation-related genes SLC24A5 and SLC45A2.
Source Int. J. Legal Med. 2007 Jan; 121(1):36-9. Institution Department of Forensic Medicine and Human Genetics, Kurume University School of Medicine, Kurume, 830-0011, Japan.
edit- Patrol what do you have as to a skin color distribution chart worldwide?
I saw this in one of Keita's videos, I'll have to look it up, but will find it.
Posts: 2595 | From: Vicksburg | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I fail to see what skin color maps have to do with anything. Just a lazy roundabout way of getting around the fact that ecological underpinnings that we know select for light skin, CLEARLY aren't there. The extant indigenous populations who have been living in the Sahara for the longest are arguably the most heavily pigmented people in Africa. Then again, save from a few posts, this thread has been a cringing display of collective double standard applying, denialist buffoonery, anyway.
ES joke of the month: mutation or admixture mediated light skin genes in Kordofan/Nuba, Chadic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers are subject to positive selection in the near future, because the said populations inhabit the (Circum-)Sahara.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^weirdo, do tell what "ecological underpinnings" supposedly "select for light skin" as an adaptive trait that is not UV radiation exposure related.
Name the "extant indigenous populations" of the sub-tropical areas of the Sahara, that have supposedly lived there the "longest" and "are arguably the most heavily pigmented people in Africa". I have a hunch that your responses will be good for making the audience laugh rather than educated.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: weirdo, do tell what "ecological underpinnings" supposedly "select for light skin" as an adaptive trait that is not UV radiation exposure related.
Sack a sh!t, without predictably resorting to your habit of running away with your tail tucked in your booty, do tell what part of post indicates that UV radiation was not implicated in what I said.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Name the "extant indigenous populations" of the sub-tropical areas of the Sahara, that have supposedly lived there the "longest" and "are arguably the most heavily pigmented people in Africa".
Deceitful goalpost moving lying sack a sh!t, talking about ''subtropical parts of the Sahara''. As if living on either side of the man-made tropic of cancer is going to make difference for whether you come out black or light skinned if there is little UV radiation variation immediately South or North of this imaginary land mark within the Sahara.
You were talking about skin pigmentation based selection of SLC24A5 in the Sahara and got your dumb ass handed to you, for excrementing such an atrociously stupid claim. I DARE your fraud ass to not run away for once, and to actually refute the figment in your head that the said population do not conform to my description, with material other than the additional figments in your head (i.e. keep figments such as your earlier mentioned ''subtropical Sahara'' and your misty, cooked up, wandering ''Saharan'' populations outside of the realm of reality).
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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ES joke of the month: mutation or admixture mediated light skin genes in Kordofan/Nuba, Chadic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers are subject to positive selection in the near future, because the said populations inhabit the (Circum-)Sahara.
And the joker--not by choice of course--of the month: swenet.
Wait: I hope you were not referring to the Nuba people when you alluded to the people who supposedly "lived in the Sahara the longest", 'cause fool, they don't live in the sub-tropical areas of the Sahara. Chadic speakers span diverse people from west to central Africa, and Nilo-Saharan speakers stretch from west to east. You'd have to specify which elements of these speakers meet the description of "longest residence" in sub-tropical Sahara, as well as being "arguably the most heavily pigmented people in Africa".
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sack a sh!t, without predictably resorting to your habit of running away with your tail tucked in your booty, do tell what part of post suggests that UV radiation was not implicated in what I said.
Then numbnuts you are not on the same planet as discussants on here, since UV radiation was mentioned as the environmental trigger for "light skin" as an adaptive trait. If you are not challenging this yet whining about "ecological underpinnings that select for "light skin" not being there", then it must be because you have your head tucked in your booty. LOL
quote:Deceitful goalpost moving lying sack a sh!t, no one is talking about ''subtropical parts of the Sahara''.
That is precisely what has been talked about, and nothing but--initial selection in the vicinity of sub-tropical Sahara, fuckhead bitch. Pull your head outta your ass already.
quote: keep figments such as your earlier mentioned ''subtropical Sahara'' fallacy and your misty, cooked up wandering ''Saharan'' populations outside of the realm of reality).
Thought you were crying that "nobody" is "talking about sub-tropical Sahara; now, you acknowledged that it was in fact talked about. You are one mentally fucked up nut. Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yeah, I've edited my post. And you damn sure ain't going to refute anything in it. You can spastically rave on if you want to, get your other faith-based buddies to pat you on the back for appealing to their vested interests, lying your ass off and excrementing misty pseudo-scientific hogwash. I'll be awaiting actual science-based refutations to the below (and other pending, selectively hedged segments of my earlier posts), knowing full well you're going to run off with your tail tapered in-booty and mask your inability to step up, with distractive ploys.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: the fact that ecological underpinnings that we know select for light skin, CLEARLY aren't there. The extant indigenous populations who have been living in the Sahara for the longest are arguably the most heavily pigmented people in Africa. Then again, save from a few posts, this thread has been a cringing display of collective double standard applying, denialist buffoonery, anyway.
ES joke of the month: mutation or admixture mediated light skin genes in Kordofan/Nuba, Chadic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers are subject to positive selection in the near future, because the said populations inhabit the (Circum-)Sahara.
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Whoa, you decide when science is "faith-based" or not, as it caters to your emotional feelings...like some kind of an Ayatollah of science. But forbid anyone challenges you to produce undoctored evidence (the opposite of uninformed paraphrases) for your senseless allegations, you cry that it's your observation of a non-verbal state of mind. LOL
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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^As predicted, another one of your distractive ploys.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Yeah, I've edited my post. And you damn sure ain't going to refute anything in it. You can spastically rave on if you want to, get your other faith-based buddies to pat you on the back for appealing to their vested interests, lying your ass off and excrementing misty pseudo-scientific hogwash. I'll be awaiting actual science-based refutations to the below (and other pending, selectively hedged segments of my earlier posts), knowing full well you're going to run off with your tail tapered in-booty and mask your inability to step up, with distractive ploys.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: the fact that ecological underpinnings that we know select for light skin, CLEARLY aren't there. The extant indigenous populations who have been living in the Sahara for the longest are arguably the most heavily pigmented people in Africa. Then again, save from a few posts, this thread has been a cringing display of collective double standard applying, denialist buffoonery, anyway.
ES joke of the month: mutation or admixture mediated light skin genes in Kordofan/Nuba, Chadic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers are subject to positive selection in the near future, because the said populations inhabit the (Circum-)Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: Name the "extant indigenous populations" of the sub-tropical areas of the Sahara
talking about ''subtropical parts of the Sahara''. As if living on either side of the man-made tropic of cancer is going to make difference for whether you come out black or light skinned if there is little UV radiation variation immediately South or North of this man-made land mark within the Sahara.
You were talking about skin pigmentation based selection of SLC24A5 in the Sahara and got your dumb ass handed to you, for excrementing such an atrociously stupid claim.
The cause of albinism is a mutation in one of several genes. Each of these genes provides the chemically coded instructions for making one of several proteins involved in the production of melanin. Melanin is produced by cells called melanocytes, which are found in your skin and eyes. A mutation may result in no melanin production at all or a significant decline in the amount of melanin.
In most types of albinism, a person must inherit two copies of a mutated gene — one from each parent — in order to have albinism (recessive inheritance). If a person has only one copy, then he or she won't have the disorder.
Impact of mutations on eye development Regardless of which gene mutation is present, vision impairment is a common characteristic with all types of albinism. These impairments are caused by irregular development of the nerve pathways from the eye to the brain and from abnormal development of the retina.
Types of albinism
The system for classifying types of albinism is based primarily on which mutated gene caused the disorder rather than by outward signs. Nonetheless, most types of albinism have some features that distinguish them from each other. Types of albinism include:
Oculocutaneous albinism. Oculocutaneous albinism is caused by a mutation in one of four genes. These mutations result in signs and symptoms related to vision (ocular) and those related to skin (cutaneous), hair and iris color.
Oculocutaneous albinism type 1 is caused by a mutation in a gene on chromosome 11. Most people with this type of albinism have milky white skin, white hair and blue eyes at birth. Some people with this disorder never experience changes in pigmentation, but others begin to produce melanin during childhood and adolescence. Their hair may become a golden blond or brown. Their skin usually doesn't change color, but it may tan somewhat. The irises may also change color and lose some of their translucence.
Oculocutaneous albinism type 2 is caused by a mutation in a gene on chromosome 15. It's more common in Sub-Saharan Africans, African-Americans and Native Americans than in other population groups. The hair may be yellow, auburn, ginger or red, the eyes can be blue-gray or tan, and the skin is white at birth. In people of African descent, the skin may be light brown, and in those of Asian or Northern European descent, the skin is usually white. In either case, the skin color is generally close to the family's coloring, but a little bit lighter. With sun exposure, the skin may over time develop freckles, moles or lentigines.
The rarer oculocutaneous albinism type 3 is caused by a gene mutation on chromosome 9 and has been primarily identified in black South Africans. People with this disorder usually have reddish-brown skin, ginger or reddish hair, and hazel or brown eyes.
Oculocutaneous albinism type 4, caused by a gene mutation on chromosome 5, is an uncommon form of the disorder generally presenting signs and symptoms similar to those of type 2. This type of albinism may be one of the most common forms among people of East Asian descent.
X-linked ocular albinism. The cause of X-linked ocular albinism, which occurs almost exclusively in males, is a gene mutation on the X chromosome. People who have ocular albinism have the developmental and functional vision problems of albinism. But skin, hair and eye color are generally in the normal range or slightly lighter than that of others in the family.
Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome. Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome is a rare albinism disorder caused by a mutation in one of at least eight genes associated with this syndrome. People with this disorder have signs and symptoms like those of oculocutaneous albinism, but they also develop lung and bowel diseases and a bleeding disorder.
Chediak-Higashi syndrome. Chediak-Higashi syndrome is a rare form of albinism that's associated with a mutation in the LYST gene. Signs and symptoms are similar to those of oculocutaneous albinism. The hair is usually brown or blond with a silvery sheen, and the skin is usually creamy white to grayish. People with this syndrome have a defect with white blood cells that results in a susceptibility to infections. DS00941 April 2, 2011
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J Invest Dermatol. 2013 Jul;133(7):1834-40. doi: 10.1038/jid.2013.49. Epub 2013 Jan 30. Exome sequencing identifies SLC24A5 as a candidate gene for nonsyndromic oculocutaneous albinism. Wei AH, Zang DJ, Zhang Z, Liu XZ, He X, Yang L, Wang Y, Zhou ZY, Zhang MR, Dai LL, Yang XM, Li W.
Source State Key Laboratory of Molecular Developmental Biology, Institute of Genetics and Developmental Biology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, China.
Abstract
quote: Oculocutaneous albinism (OCA) is a heterogeneous and autosomal recessive disorder with hypopigmentation in the eye, hair, and skin color. Four genes, TYR, OCA2, TYRP1, and SLC45A2, have been identified as causative genes for nonsyndromic OCA1-4, respectively. The genetic identity of OCA5 locus on 4q24 is unknown. Additional unknown OCA genes may exist as at least 5% of OCA patients have not been characterized during mutational screening in several populations. We used exome sequencing with a family-based recessive mutation model to determine that SLC24A5 is a previously unreported candidate gene for nonsyndromic OCA, which we designate as OCA6. Two deleterious mutations in this patient, c.591G>A and c.1361insT, were identified. We found apparent increase of immature melanosomes and less mature melanosomes in the patient's skin melanocytes. However, no defects in the platelet dense granules were observed, excluding typical Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome (HPS), a well-known syndromic OCA. Moreover, the SLC24A5 protein was reduced in steady-state levels in mouse HPS mutants with deficiencies in BLOC-1 and BLOC-2. Our results suggest that SLC24A5 is a previously unreported nonsyndromic OCA candidate gene and that the SLC24A5 transporter is transported into mature melanosomes by HPS protein complexes.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Aren't the Lemba tribe further proof of Eurasian genes in Southern Africa? I wonder why they did not study them. They reportedly have as much Eurasian lineages(up to 50%) as some Ethiopian groups.
Posts: 116 | From: Birmingham, AL | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by HabariTess: Aren't the Lemba tribe further proof of Eurasian genes in Southern Africa? I wonder why they did not study them. They reportedly have as much Eurasian lineages(up to 50%) as some Ethiopian groups.
Thinks that make you go, hmmmm?
In fact they carry the highest frequency of the clade. Makes you wonder...hmmmm?
The Lemba claim to have come from Yemen, originally.
Ancient Hebrew depicted, being captured by Assyrians.
Also interesting is:
Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin1,2,3 et al.
1 Department of Haematology and Genetic Pathology, School of Medicine, Flinders University, Adelaide, Australia 2 Department of Human Genetics, Sackler Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Israel 3 Current Address: Blood Bank, Sheba Medical Center, Ramat-Gan 52621, Israel
quote: "The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms"
The origin of Eastern European Jews, (EEJ) by far the largest and most important Ashkenazi population, and their affinities to other Jewish and European populations are still not resolved.
Studies that compared them by genetic distance analysis of autosomal markers to European Mediterranean populations revealed that they are closer to Europeans than to other Jewish populations [1-3].
In contrast, according to the Y-chromosomal haplogroups EEJ are closest to the non-Jewish populations of the Eastern Mediterranean (table 3, figure 4).
"EEJ are the largest and most investigated Jewish community, yet their history as Franco-German Jewry is known to us only since their appearance in the 9th century, and their subsequent migration a few hundred years later to Eastern Europe [4,5]. Where did these Jews come from? It seems that they came to Germany and France from Italy [5-8].
It is also possible that some Jews migrated northward from the Italian colonies on the northern shore of the Black Sea [9]. All these Jews are likely the descendents of proselytes.
Conversion to Judaism was common in Rome in the first centuries BC and AD. Judaism gained many followers among all ranks of Roman Society [10-13]."
The autosomal genetic distance analysis presented here clearly demonstrates that the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin.
The resemblance of EEJ to Italians and other European populations portrays them as an autochthonous European population.
**The demographic histories of three Jewish populations exemplify how different demographic patterns make the uniparental markers more reliable for Iraqi (Babylonian) Jews and Yemenite Jews and less reliable for EEJ. Both Yemenite Jews and Iraqi Jews resemble populations from their regions of origin according to autosomal markers [1,3,30-32].
**Babylonian Jews numbered more than a million in the first century AD [35], and constituted the majority of the population in the area between the Euphrates and the Tigris in the 2nd-3rd centuries AD [36]. Gilbert [37] estimates that by 600 AD there were 806,000 Jews in Mesopotamia, and according to Sassoon [38] it was inhabited by about a million Jews in the 7th century. In the 14th century the estimates for Baghdad alone range from 70,000 to hundreds thousands [38].
*By comparing the structure of the STRs network among the various Ashkenazi populations and among the various European non-Jewish populations they reached the conclusion that a single male founder introduced this haplogroup into Ashkenazi Jews in the first millennium.
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New paper came out. African SLC24A5 has the same single origin as non-African SLC24A5, as I've stated all along. Some things can be ruled out with simple thinking and abiding by scientific principles. This thread is a an instructive display of how far some ES members are prepared to go to preserve their childish nonsense fairy tales of African purity. Of only a few ES members can it be said that they're honest and critical. When people start to knowingly deny well documented events, like the entry of Ethio- Semitic languages and genes into East Africa 3kya, you know that they have zero integrity and operate in their own little fantasy world and cannot be trusted when it comes reporting on African population genetics and African history in general.
quote:To gain insight into when and where this mutation arose, we defined common haplotypes in the genomic region around SLC24A5 across diverse human populations and deduced phylogenetic relationships between them. Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
... well documented events, like the entry of Ethio- Semitic languages and genes into East Africa 3kya, ...
Granted, for the vast majority, but what of Gurage? What's your take? Really Ethio-semitic or ???
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The radical facial differentiation of these LSA peoples relative to MSA predecessors may represent a parallel evolution event as they have a plethora of traits that are peculiar to them and are not seen in Ethio-Semitic and Cushitic speakers.
quote:All the Upper Paleolithic peoples of Kenya were of Caucasoid or proto-Hamitic stock; they are represented by the Gamble's Cave and Naivasha skeletons, as well as the skeleton from Olduvai in northern Tanganyika. They were tall and dolichocephalic, with long face and narrow nose (the 'Elmenteitan type'); the other is brachycephalic, with a shorter face but also with a narrow nose. These two types are represented by Elmenteita A and F1 (Fig. 5 (2 and 3)) from Bromhead's site. The same types persist into the Neolithic, but now a third variation appears in the ultra-dolichocephalic skulls from Willey's kopje (Fig. 5 (4)); these differ from the Elmenteitan type by having a shorter face, a more prominent nose, and a different kind of mandible.
--Sonia Cole, 1954
Now that two years have passed since this post, would you maintain the features identified as "proto-Hamitic" by Sonia Cole represent a local evolution peculiar to these Late Stone Age people? Or might they possibly represent some affinity, distant or not, with "pre-OOA" Eastern Saharans?
Posts: 7083 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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The problem with studies like the one Lioness posted in the OP is that geneticists truly haven't figured out the exact 'dividing line', so to speak, between Africans and Eurasians in Southwest Asia. It's known and virtually accepted by all experts that all Eurasians are derived from Africans, but exactly where in the genome this distinction first took place is a matter of debate just like with uniparental markers in the Y chromosome and mitochondria. What complicates things even more and adds confusion is the fact that there were multiple waves out of Africa in addition to possible back-migrations. That said, one may question exactly how "Eurasian" the back-migrants really were. For example, there was a 2013 study by Lazardis et al. on the forebears of Neolithic culture in Europe. Lazardis discovered an autosomal component strongly associated with the Neolithic immigrants which he calls “basal Eurasian” and is found in varying frequencies among modern populations of Europe, North Africa, Southwest Asia, and as far east as northern India, again all regions associated with Neolithic expansion. Lazardis postulates that this original ‘basal Eurasian’ population from which this component arose was genetically intermediate between the Mbuti pygmies of central Africa and say Persians of western Eurasia. This leaves a vast area of the Great Rift Valley--from east Africa to the Jordan Valley, and on either side of the Red Sea in the Nile Valley or Arabia where this population could have arisen. And even if one were to take Africa out of the picture and leave only Southwest Asia, they are still intermediate with Central African pygmies! It’s not even known when exactly these “basal Eurasians” arose, though since they are equally intermediate to west Eurasians like Iranians but very distant from east Eurasians, they either were part of the initial OOA but remained isolated while other populations branched off OR they represent a later African expansion. Either way, it appears they were not quite as divergent from Africans as many Euronuts would wish them to be. In fact, among the Neolithic skeletal remains of Stuttgart, southern Germany which Lazardis et al. studied, the individual which had the strongest sample of “basal Eurasian” component happened to be a male whose craniofacial traits were very African-like!
So again, while I do not at all deny back-migrations into Africa in ancient times as such has occurred even in more recent historical times, I do seriously call into question these sweeping claims of “extensive Eurasian admixture” throughout the whole African continent! This is no different from Euronut claims that YAP on the Y-chromosome (hg DE) is “Eurasian” therefore making the entire hg E clade “Eurasian” even though a study published last month by Ottoni et al. has confirmed the presence of D-M174 (D*) in West Africa!! I don’t know if this is the case with Lioness personally but I have noticed a trend among Euronuts where due to their miserable failure at white-washing the Egyptians and other North Africans, they then go for the crazier tactic of white-washing populations throughout Sub-Sahara including Pygmies and Khoisan which this OP study seems to be doing.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ancient Ethiopian genome reveals extensive Eurasian admixture throughout the African continent
M. Gallego Llorente et al
Characterizing genetic diversity in Africa is a crucial step for most analyses reconstructing the evolutionary history of anatomically modern humans. However, historic migrations from Eurasia into Africa have affected many contemporary populations, confounding inferences. Here, we present a 12.5x coverage ancient genome of an Ethiopian male (‘Mota’) who lived approximately 4,500 years ago. We use this genome to demonstrate that the Eurasian backflow into Africa came from a population closely related to Early Neolithic farmers, who had colonized Europe 4,000 years earlier. The extent of this backflow was much greater than previously reported, reaching all the way to Central, West and Southern Africa, affecting even populations such as Yoruba and Mbuti, previously thought to be relatively unadmixed, who harbor 6-7% Eurasian ancestry
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^ Nobody is ignoring anything. I merely gave my opinion based on sound logic. Geneticists are quick to label autosomal genetic components found in ancient Africans as "Eurasian". This same tactic was applied to Y-chromosomal markers such as hg E in the past, but recent studies have debunked the "Eurasian" claims and confirmed what many have suspected all along that they were African. So if you want to believe that Africans from Pygmies to Khoisan are "Eurasian-mixed", then that's your prerogative. Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Nobody is ignoring anything. I merely gave my opinion based on sound logic. Geneticists are quick to label autosomal genetic components found in ancient Africans as "Eurasian". This same tactic was applied to Y-chromosomal markers such as hg E in the past, but recent studies have debunked the "Eurasian" claims and confirmed what many have suspected all along that they were African. So if you want to believe that Africans from Pygmies to Khoisan are "Eurasian-mixed", then that's your prerogative.
The above abstract says Yoruba and Mbuti are of 6-7% Eurasian ancestry. Assuming that Khosians average a similar low percentage (and they do have low frequencies of R clades) and considering that African Americans average around 20% Eurasian I would not characterize Khosians or AA as a "mixed people" though they do have some admixture
"Mixed people" are genrally regarded as more around 50/50 or 60/40
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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^ Do you realize how idiotic you sound?? "Mixed" means exactly what it means regardless of actual percentage. Thus, many studies show that a third of Europeans have recent African admixture confirmed by Y-chromosome (hg E) . The study you cite, based on autosomal alleles says Mbuti, (a Pygmy group) is Eurasian mixed. You do realize there is NO presence of hg R or any Eurasian lineage among Mbuti Pygmies or in Khoisan either yet the latter are also said to be "Eurasian" mixed. So how do you explain this?? This is why I don't hold a pinch of salt to admixture studies based on autosomes without further context of other factors, and this is especially true of African populations due to the reasons I stated above.
Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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