quote:Before, hundreds of antiquities, statuettes, gold and jewels told the history of Egypt, from pharaonic times to the Muslim caliphs, from the Omayyad dynasty in the 7th century to the Fatimids in the 12th, and touching on Greek and Roman antiquities.
For 20 years, these historic treasures were assistant-director Tahami's whole life.
"I like this museum more than my own house, I have spent more time there than at home. It is as if it were my house that has been destroyed, burgled and pillaged," he says.
For him and his colleagues, the Mallawi museum, 70 kilometres (43 miles) from Minya, the town in Upper Egypt south of Cairo, has payed a steep price for the bloody crackdown on protests by supporters of ousted Islamist president Mohamed Morsi, toppled by the army on July 3.
On August 14, shortly after the police and army launched an operation on pro-Morsi protest camps in Cairo that killed hundreds in few hours, several hundred armed men attacked the museum.
While nobody is certain who the attackers and looters were, the walls of the museum are still daubed with pro-Morsi slogans.
"Yes to Islam, yes to the Muslim Brotherhood," says one slogan, in a nod to the group from which Morsi hails.
As someone who has a longstanding fascination with ancient Egyptian civilization, I am especially infuriated by this cultural desecration on the part of the Muslim Brotherhood's supporters. They are every bit as terrible as the Islamists in Mali who almost destroyed the medieval manuscripts of Timbuktu. I do not have anything against Muslim people as a whole, but I cannot condone vandalism against indigenous African culture in the name of Islamic supremacism. African people and their heritage have endured too much violence and imperialism at the hands of the West already, so they should not have to suffer more of the same from Arab-identified Islamists.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:While nobody is certain who the attackers and looters were, the walls of the museum are still daubed with pro-Morsi slogans.
^So while it may be guided by Muslim sensibilities, I believe these acts are more political in nature. While obviously the two can't be separated I'm not sure I'd exclusively implicate "Islamists", or focus on that aspect of it.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
The Islamist do not like Ancient Egyptian civilization. They say Ancient Egyptian civilization was a time of religious ignorance. This is a false statement by the Islamist, The Egyptian invented modern religion.
I didn't not support the fact that the Islamist muslim brotherhood candidate Mohammed Morsi was elected President of Egypt. The Islamist under President Hosni Mubarack attacked tourist in Luxor with assault riffle and killed hundred of tourists. During the presidency of Morsi Islamist threaten to destroyed the great Pyramid of Giza.
Islamist Mohammed Morsi being deposed by the Egyptian military wasn't a bad idea because if the Islamist had become more powerful they could have destroyed the Cairo museum and the Nubian museum.
The Islamist probably destroyed the Mallawi museum because it is connected with Hebrew or Jew. According to Moustafa Gadalla the city of Mal Lawi or Mal Levi meaning the city of the Levite was the city of the Levite follower of Akhenaton. Mallevi was located near Akhenaton capital city of Akhetaton.
posted
Even if one doesn't treasure his own past it is hubris of the highest order to assume your children and their children to the end of time won't care about it. This is destruction, not of the past, but of the future and for all time.
When the truth is learned about the ancient Egyptians I believe that truth will be something of which all Muslims can be very proud but the museum will still be gone and its artefacts destroyed.
-------------------- Men fear the pyramid, time fears man. Posts: 393 | From: NW Indiana, US of A | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:While nobody is certain who the attackers and looters were, the walls of the museum are still daubed with pro-Morsi slogans.
^So while it may be guided by Muslim sensibilities, I believe these acts are more political in nature. While obviously the two can't be separated I'm not sure I'd exclusively implicate "Islamists", or focus on that aspect of it.
Just to clarify I know these are religiously motivated as well as political (as stated this can't be separated or even discerned). And believe me. The extremists are ignorant as hell but the fact that Truth had to qualify his disdain by stating he has "no problem with Muslim people as a whole, but", shows how dangerous this western propaganda about "Muslims" is becoming. I don't think MOST Muslims have much a problem with Ancient Egypt and its associated artifacts. My main concern is the projection due to choice words like 'Islamist" that westerners pull out of their ass to describe fundamentalists and extremists who happen to be Muslim.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:While nobody is certain who the attackers and looters were, the walls of the museum are still daubed with pro-Morsi slogans.
^So while it may be guided by Muslim sensibilities, I believe these acts are more political in nature. While obviously the two can't be separated I'm not sure I'd exclusively implicate "Islamists", or focus on that aspect of it.
Just to clarify I know these are religiously motivated as well as political (as stated this can't be separated or even discerned). And believe me. The extremists are ignorant as hell but the fact that Truth had to qualify his disdain by stating he has "no problem with Muslim people as a whole, but", shows how dangerous this western propaganda about "Muslims" is becoming. I don't think MOST Muslims have much a problem with Ancient Egypt and its associated artifacts. My main concern is the projection due to choice words like 'Islamist" that westerners pull out of their ass to describe fundamentalists and extremists who happen to be Muslim.
I said it a couple of times already while I love the diversity of people, cultures, personalities and religions (Traditional African, Shinto, Celtic, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Greece, etc) around the world. I have to consider abrahamic religions essentially fundamentalist at their very core. The basic concept behind them is that only their religion is right and other religions are wrong. Obviously sometimes they apply the same homogenic intolerance of religious plurality between themselves (Sunni vs Shia, catholic vs protestants, etc). It wasn't always like that.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
Islam at its very core is very dismissive and hostile to Pagan cultures. Of course every Muslim is not out to destroy Ancient African artifacts and many Muslims enjoy the history of Egypt as much as the next person, but their Belief system and their holy book is not at all friendly to Ancient African so called Pagan culture. Islamist/Islamism is real thing, You only have to look at the destruction of even Islamic history deemed "Heretical" by Islamists in Mali, the destruction of the Buddhist Statues in Iraq, the Defacing of the Pyramids and other Temples etc.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:While nobody is certain who the attackers and looters were, the walls of the museum are still daubed with pro-Morsi slogans.
^So while it may be guided by Muslim sensibilities, I believe these acts are more political in nature. While obviously the two can't be separated I'm not sure I'd exclusively implicate "Islamists", or focus on that aspect of it.
Just to clarify I know these are religiously motivated as well as political (as stated this can't be separated or even discerned). And believe me. The extremists are ignorant as hell but the fact that Truth had to qualify his disdain by stating he has "no problem with Muslim people as a whole, but", shows how dangerous this western propaganda about "Muslims" is becoming. I don't think MOST Muslims have much a problem with Ancient Egypt and its associated artifacts. My main concern is the projection due to choice words like 'Islamist" that westerners pull out of their ass to describe fundamentalists and extremists who happen to be Muslim.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I am not surprised, all throughout the history ever since it entered Egypt, this peculiar event happened.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
As a whole, people who practice Abrahamic religions the way their books prescribe it (i.e. leaving out moderates) are among the most intolerant people on the face of the Earth. The empirical evidence is staggering and self-evident. The damage these people have done to indigenous people and heritage sites all over the world, throughout history, is mind-boggling, especially when compared to members of other religions and religious orientations.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
yeah and the worst part is that all 3 branches esp. Islam and Xtianity are full of Pagan Practices, Customs and traditions. Its sad and pathetic to see European, Asian and African people commiting Suicide and Homicide(Genocide) in the name of a Jewish and Arabian god, two of the most backward, unlearned, superstitious and bigoted people historically.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As a whole, people who practice Abrahamic religions the way their books prescribe it (i.e. leaving out moderates) are among the most intolerant people on the face of the Earth. The empirical evidence is staggering and self-evident. The damage these people have done to indigenous people and heritage sites all over the world, throughout history, is mind-boggling, especially when compared to members of other religions and religious orientations.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Actually the "god of war" was always an aspect of religious practice going back to very ancient times. But in Africa that god was invoked for protection, defense and to prevent war not to go round the world starting wars. But be that as it may, cultures around the world have always invoked deities as symbolic cosmological explanations for victory in combat and defense of the realm.
The reason that Abrahamic religions are especially violent and intolerant is because they want to be universal and therefore have to eradicate any and all pre-existing practices in order to dominate. From that perspective it is more like gang banging in the name of religion and taking over turf in the name of "god" than it is about being pious, righteous and humble. Keep in mind that the Muslims are in the process of destroying many of the ancient artifacts from Arabia, even as hey maintain the Kaaba stone which originates in pagan cultures.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually the "god of war" was always an aspect of religious practice going back to very ancient times. But in Africa that god was invoked for protection, defense and to prevent war not to go round the world starting wars.
that would mean there was no tribal war in prehistoric Africa. That is a belief and it seems unlikely.
Sometimes people go to other places in the world and plunder. For example the Europeans in Africa or the Barbary pirates. This takes large ship technology to be able to take whole armies into ships and stock enough food on the ship.
Posts: 42921 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually the "god of war" was always an aspect of religious practice going back to very ancient times. But in Africa that god was invoked for protection, defense and to prevent war not to go round the world starting wars.
that would mean there was no tribal war in prehistoric Africa. That is a belief and it seems unlikely.
Sometimes people go to other places in the world and plunder. For example the Europeans in Africa or the Barbary pirates. This takes large ship technology to be able to take whole armies into ships and stock enough food on the ship.
Yes, there were wars in Africa, but it had a different meaning and magnitude. Battle were fought differently.
And European maritime technology wasn't that high-tech, many of those ship sunk. Those ships were colossal, for the given time. That's true.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] The reason that Abrahamic religions are especially violent and intolerant is because they want to be universal and therefore have to eradicate any and all pre-existing practices in order to dominate.
That's my main gripes about them. Most Abrahamic practitioners are peaceful nowadays. Especially, since the west abandoned Christianity for a more, lets say, natural/scientific view of life. There's religiously motivated violence in many Muslim countries, but while religion is used as tool, they are truly economic war (elitist war) hiding behind religious propaganda and scapegoats to motivate people to do their bid.
In the west, the USA military mainly, they don't use religion as a pretext for war (like in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya). Usually "freedom", liberating people, is used as pretext. They also are truly economic and elitist wars (to gain access to oil for example).
But fundamentally, Abrahamic religions are imperialistic religions. They are intolerant, fascist and hegemonic.
Which can only lead to conflicts between people of different religious denomination (including within Abrahamic religious groups themselves, shia vs sunni, protestant vs catholics, etc). Even if Christianity or Islam would have taken over, there would still be conflict between different dominations within those groups because of the core mentality of those religions. Religious diversity, tolerance, pluralism, freedom and diversity should be at the core of our values.
That's my main gripes about Abrahamic religions. Fundamentally, they can only lead to conflicts with people of other/different religious denominations (within and without).
quote: From that perspective it is more like gang banging in the name of religion and taking over turf in the name of "god" than it is about being pious, righteous and humble. Keep in mind that the Muslims are in the process of destroying many of the ancient artifacts from Arabia, even as hey maintain the Kaaba stone which originates in pagan cultures.
Those are certainly extremist groups. In the past, those extremist viewpoints were typical among those religions and it's one of the way by which those religion extended their territorial influence. Through violence, intimidation, destruction, propaganda ("they are evil"), etc. Again, including in their own territory (burning heathens for example, killing infidels, etc). It was used to control the population. Abrahamic religions led Europe to the horrible middle ages.
As I said before, a big chunk of the current natural/scientific worldview and innovation were based at their core to what was defined in Ancient Greece (and Ancient Egypt to a lesser extent). In the sense, that's it's really by reading ancient Greek writings that they developed some aspect of science like mathematics. Both Ancient Egypt and Ancient Greece (as well as the Rome civilizations for the most part) were based on ancestral religions, so called pagans religions.
The core of the current Western civilization (science, democracy, freedom of speech, citizen's right, etc) was born out of Ancient Greece by people practicing ancestral religions, by people having ancestral religions as their worldview.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As a whole, people who practice Abrahamic religions the way their books prescribe it (i.e. leaving out moderates) are among the most intolerant people on the face of the Earth. The empirical evidence is staggering and self-evident. The damage these people have done to indigenous people and heritage sites all over the world, throughout history, is mind-boggling, especially when compared to members of other religions and religious orientations.
I agree. There is no getting around this fact.
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: yeah and the worst part is that all 3 branches esp. Islam and Xtianity are full of Pagan Practices, Customs and traditions. Its sad and pathetic to see European, Asian and African people commiting Suicide and Homicide(Genocide) in the name of a Jewish and Arabian god, two of the most backward, unlearned, superstitious and bigoted people historically.
I was about to say, that despite the staunch monotheism, these religious traditions are indeed rooted in polytheism albeit henotheism. Recall Christopher Ehret and Julian Baldick (author of Black God). The early Semitic forebears of the 'Abrahamic tradition' were henotheists meaning each tribe had a chief deity they were loyal to although they did not disavow beliefs in other deities or dissuade other groups from worshiping other deities. It's no difficult step going from henotheist to monotheist by banning the worship of other deities.
By the way, other Afrisian groups besides Semitic speakers were henotheist as well including the ancient Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Actually the "god of war" was always an aspect of religious practice going back to very ancient times. But in Africa that god was invoked for protection, defense and to prevent war not to go round the world starting wars. But be that as it may, cultures around the world have always invoked deities as symbolic cosmological explanations for victory in combat and defense of the realm.
The reason that Abrahamic religions are especially violent and intolerant is because they want to be universal and therefore have to eradicate any and all pre-existing practices in order to dominate. From that perspective it is more like gang banging in the name of religion and taking over turf in the name of "god" than it is about being pious, righteous and humble. Keep in mind that the Muslims are in the process of destroying many of the ancient artifacts from Arabia, even as hey maintain the Kaaba stone which originates in pagan cultures.
Correct. The root of all this evil is politics in particular a dominant patriarchal elite that creates and promulgates the religious trends. As I just pointed out above, enforcing a new standard from henotheism to monotheism by banning other deities is one thing, but then to try to enforce that on other peoples and cultures is another thing.
The Jewish religion founded by Moshe (Moses) never promoted proselytizing or spread however it did enforce dominance in the nation of Israel formerly Canaan. Christianity under Yeshua (Jesus) was the same way and was basically a renaissance movement back to original Jewish religion as well as hegemony which threatened Rome. However decades after Yeshua's death, you had Paul who recreated Christianity into an entirely separate religion from Judaism and under Roman became a horrible force of imperial domination and terror. Muhammad of course was a cult leader who claimed to be the last of the long line of Biblical prophets and wanted to spread his 'faith' even at the expense of the predecessor faiths especially Jews which he blames for not accepting his prophethood.
Anyway, Doug is correct that these religions are driven by their belief in universality and therefore 'divine right to rule'.
Getting back to the topic, I think its disgusting what these people did. Destroying their own alleged historical heritage. The problem is that Muslims unlike Christians have had no major reformations or enlightenment periods. This is why Christian Europe and even the Vatican still hold artwork depicting pagan themes which they still prize whereas in Islamic countries especially Arabia, all work both art and literature from the Jahiliyah ('Times of Ignorance') were destroyed and still this mentality afflicts modern Egyptians even though they themselves are largely jobless and illiterate.
Posts: 26243 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Let's also recall the latest historical muslim jihads in Africa (started by some Haussa religious leaders around 1804) and the current Boko Haram in Nigeria. Africans killing other Africans justified by some foreign god described in a book. Stupidity has no ethnicity, color or geography.
Let's always promote the diversity of peoples, cultures, languages, religions, personalities, opinions, lifestyles, etc. This is what enrich the human life. One person's freedom ends where another's begins.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As a whole, people who practice Abrahamic religions the way their books prescribe it (i.e. leaving out moderates) are among the most intolerant people on the face of the Earth. The empirical evidence is staggering and self-evident. The damage these people have done to indigenous people and heritage sites all over the world, throughout history, is mind-boggling, especially when compared to members of other religions and religious orientations.
Like others said, what scares me about the Abrahamic belief systems is their intolernant megalomania. Of course non-Abrahamic cultures can fight, conquer, and brutalize out-groups too, but the meme that everyone else in the whole world must have your belief system forced onto them to save their souls seem peculiar to the Abrahamic mindset. Even the Mongols, for all their bloodthirstiness and territorial ambitions, didn't go that far to force their religion onto their subjects.
If there ever does arise a Dark Lord that wants to take over the world and force their beliefs onto everyone, it would not surprise me if their beliefs have Judeo-Christian or Islamic roots.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I am very sad watching news about Irak and Syria in AlJazeera news. Sunni and Shiite muslim are killing each other and destroying their countries because of the different way of worshiping an invisible God. I remember the Jesuit priest whistleblower saying the roman Catholic church created Islam. Other scholars state the Eastern Orthodox Church created Islam.
It is very sad reading the real story of the Roman Catholic church. The Roman catholic church genocide million of ancient religion followers(so call pagan), they genocide million of Christian heretics, they burned the Mediterranean world libraries, they authorized and blessed the African chattel racist slave trade, they divided the world between Spain and Portugal causing the genocide of million of native people, they started the crusade against Islam, they tortured hundred of thousand in the inquisition and stole the victims properties, they burned thousand of women accused of being witches, they burned freethinking scholars, They signed contract with the German Nazi, they cover up the raped of children. The Roman Catholic Church had committed a lot of crime.
As long as million of people remain ignorant about the true nature of religion they will be exploited and manipulated by immoral Priesthood looking for power, money, sex and glory.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As a whole, people who practice Abrahamic religions the way their books prescribe it (i.e. leaving out moderates) are among the most intolerant people on the face of the Earth. The empirical evidence is staggering and self-evident. The damage these people have done to indigenous people and heritage sites all over the world, throughout history, is mind-boggling, especially when compared to members of other religions and religious orientations.
Like others said, what scares me about the Abrahamic belief systems is their intolernant megalomania. Of course non-Abrahamic cultures can fight, conquer, and brutalize out-groups too, but the meme that everyone else in the whole world must have your belief system forced onto them to save their souls seem peculiar to the Abrahamic mindset. Even the Mongols, for all their bloodthirstiness and territorial ambitions, didn't go that far to force their religion onto their subjects.
If there ever does arise a Dark Lord that wants to take over the world and force their beliefs onto everyone, it would not surprise me if their beliefs have Judeo-Christian or Islamic roots.
I find that funny because it's very true. If there was such thing as a devil, he could certainly do something like that. That is creating a religion, give it to one group of people and then having humans fighting each other to decide which religion or denomination is the best. It's like the devil's plan in motion. Although the religious extremism and intolerance seem to go down with time (some muslim countries are little bit lagging behind, others not). Nowadays, most states are secular and people have freedom of religions.
It's also true that non-Abrahamic cultures can certainly be violent and conquer new territories already inhabited, they just don't impose any religious belief on the conquered people and don't justify their wars on religious ground. More fundamentally they understand as trivial and basic fact that different people, even families, have different ways of communicating and interacting with the other side. The Roman republic and empire are an example of a conquering non-Abrahamic culture (Christianity was imposed late). Humanity as a whole, the same way as each individuals should, must evolve with times. It's like we, as humans, were in the children phase, now we're in the adolescent phase maybe and, hopefully, at one point in the future we will be in the adult phase.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Why are they called Abrahamic when Abraham if not fictional died over 2000 years before Paul invented Xianity and Muhammed came up with al~Islam?
When Abraham fought the war of 4 against 5 he neither kept land or booty.
Well he did break his daddy's idol but that was his family's merchandise.
Abe confederated with the Syro-Palestinian locals. He didn't mess with their stuff or force them to believe nothing.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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