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Author Topic: The 'Average' Northwest African Phenotype/Origins of Northwest Africans
Son of Ra
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Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).

But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?

A.
http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s417/KingMichael777/rock18416350.jpg
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 -
 -


B.

 -
http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4578054037637430&pid=1.7
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C.

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http://al-ceimage.s3.amazonaws.com/images/remote/http_al-stories.s3.amazonaws.com/2010-09-12/stories/Super-Admins/vacquah/1277942894-.jpg
http://teaandpolitics.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/salahmisbah.jpg

D.

 -
http://www.travel-images.com/algeria84.jpg
http://www.akhbaralarab.net/images/stories/profile5/tunisian_man.jpg


From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.


As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.

My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.

Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.

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the lioness,
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 -


 -


 -

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -


 -


 -

1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African. Not saying that the Phoneticians themselves were African but...

2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.

3. The Vandals and natives were always differentiated.

All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African.

there is no reason to believe that the majority of the people of Carthage were native African.
It was a trading colony comprised mainly of settlers from Lebanon. Some intermarriage with Africans probably took place.
Since then there has been a lot of Arab immigration

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.


The Romans were in Africa? When was this?

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.

By 709, all of North Africa was under the control of the Arab caliphate and since then a constant flow of Arabian migrants

Example:

 -
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada

Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death.
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.


The bulk of European admixture probably goes back to mainly the 17th century, expulsion of the moriscos from Spain and European slaves kidnapped and enslaved by Barbary pirates under command of the Turks.

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HidayaAkade
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This is going to get interesting..

--------------------
"Kiaga Nata"

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African.

there is no reason to believe that the majority of the people of Carthage were native African.
It was a trading colony comprised mainly of settlers from Lebanon. Some intermarriage with Africans probably took place.
Since then there has been a lot of Arab immigration

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.


The Romans were in Africa? When was this?

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.

By 709, all of North Africa was under the control of the Arab caliphate and since then a constant flow of Arabian migrants

Example:

 -
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada

Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death.
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.


The bulk of European admixture probably goes back to mainly the 17th century, expulsion of the moriscos from Spain and European slaves kidnapped and enslaved by Barbary pirates under command of the Turks.

lol! I see Lyin_SS is quickyly the becoming the expert on the subject of ancient north Africa , its plagiarism not withstanding.

Still not wanting to quote I see.

And everything you stated here was a half _ss LIE as usual. You are getting even funnier with your trying to sound halfway academic as well.

Really funny is your posting a painting of Muslims from Andalusia and trying to imply that they were "Arabians".


It is highly unfortunate that people like you are on forums around the internet pretending that you have something worth saying when you are nobody but a person going around trolling and talking nonsense i.e. nothing but SHiiiiii_! - acquired from your NEANDERDIMWIT friends and attempting to create the illusion that you have something worthwhile contributing to this forum.

Like I said all you are doing is allowing other people to come here and learn the facts from me and others with more than half a brain about the black Africans YOU OBVIOUSLY HATE!

And what the HELL kind of question is this: "The Romans were in Africa? When was this?"

Alright - how 'bout neo-Romans does that suit you better - you inferior-feeling, dizzy-brained DUNCE?


Go take some dance lessons somewhere girl because you'll never be able to learn with ur kind of FEEBLE BRAIN AND UGLY MIND. [Big Grin]




-

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -


 -


 -

1. Its said(correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of the people of Carnage were native African. Not saying that the Phoneticians themselves were African but...

2. The Romans always described the early North Africans as looking African.

3. The Vandals and natives were always differentiated.

All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.

Yes, Son of Ra - you have the facts on your side since the Syrians described the Masmuda and other Berber people on the coast of Morocco and Algeria as black in the 14th and 15th centuries.You are probably mostly right.


Here is another statement from a Kurd, Ibn Athir in the 11th century.

As found in Tafsir al-Qur’an al-‘Azim, Dar al-Taybah, Beirut 1999 vol.6 p.544 Ibn Kathir writes : “Among mankind there are Berbers, Ethiopians and (some) barbarians who are very black”

In other words Berbers and Ethiopians among mankind are very black while some of the barbarians were as well.


It has already been stated by scholars that 10s of thousands of Andalusians settled in North Africa when Muslims were expelled from the Iberian peninsula and settled especially in the Riff region of Morocco in particular, along with the Genoans and of course the "endless white slaves" kept in pens across North Africa, which Her Neanderdumbness here likes to forget.

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Son of Ra
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@lioness

????

Um...Didn't the Romans not conquer parts of Northern Africa??? Of course there were some Romans in North Africa. Probably mostly Roman legions or Officials.

As for Carthage. Africans were native to that land, so its possible to assume that they were the majority. And I read that the majority of the remains of a Carthaginians grave yard were of African descent. Does anyone the source for that one?

And yeah I know parts of North Africa were under control by Arabs.

@Dana

Thanks.

It seems people usually forget about the large numbers of Muslims from Europe being expelled and then migrating into Northern Africa. Why?

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dana marniche
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"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@lioness

????

Um...Didn't the Romans not conquer parts of Northern Africa??? Of course there were some Romans in North Africa. Probably mostly Roman legions or Officials.

As for Carthage. Africans were native to that land, so its possible to assume that they were the majority. And I read that the majority of the remains of a Carthaginians grave yard were of African descent. Does anyone the source for that one?

And yeah I know parts of North Africa were under control by Arabs.

@Dana

Thanks.

It seems people usually forget about the large numbers of Muslims from Europe being expelled and then migrating into Northern Africa. Why?

Actually when I said people forget i meant most people on this forum. But in truth very few Western people are familiar with or want to deal with the historic aspects of north Africa and the Middle East in that way because it means people like the Africans would have at one time had the power over them they felt they always had over darker peoples.

It is for the same reason people don't want to admit or know the original inhabitants of Arabia and Egypt were an extension of black Africans or that the first Muslims along with Jews and Christians were black. [Wink]

Their loss though, because that party is over.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@lioness

????

Um...Didn't the Romans not conquer parts of Northern Africa??? Of course there were some Romans in North Africa. Probably mostly Roman legions or Officials.

As for Carthage. Africans were native to that land, so its possible to assume that they were the majority. And I read that the majority of the remains of a Carthaginians grave yard were of African descent. Does anyone the source for that one?

And yeah I know parts of North Africa were under control by Arabs.

@Dana

Thanks.

It seems people usually forget about the large numbers of Muslims from Europe being expelled and then migrating into Northern Africa. Why?

Actually when I said people forget i meant most people on this forum. But in truth very few Western people are familiar with or want to deal with the historic aspects of north Africa and the Middle East in that way because it means people like the Africans would have at one time had the power over them they felt they always had over darker peoples.

It is for the same reason people don't want to admit or know the original inhabitants of Arabia and Egypt were an extension of black Africans or that the first Muslims along with Jews and Christians were black. [Wink]

Their loss though, because that party is over.

Yeah. And it also seems certain people want to make North Africa/Maghreb an extension of Europe. Its ironic, because those same people would have been killed by Berbers and other Africans of of the Western Sudanic prior to the 15th century all due to their white skin.
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

Lol! I was on that forum a few days with Jehosafats and found out we agreed on a lot of things and had so much information. I told him that in fact - that he knows what he is talking about. But due to the fact I was on there giving a lot of facts on the Moors - before I got kicked off, that is - the forum nearly closed down (i heard) as so many people had come on line at the same time (probably lots of Euronuts) finding out about the debate I was having there and saying the things I was. I had gone on actually because of Jehosafats and was offering my support with lots of extra facts.

Too bad the forum moderators were so sensitive though and blocked me for talking back to one of their prized no-nothing customers. [Wink]


It was from him I learned about the fact that some scholars believe the so called Zanj or black rebellion was actually an Arab one - true Arab in fact.

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

Lol> I was on that forum with Jehosafats and we agreed on a lot of things. I told him that in fact - that he knows what he is talking about. But due to the fact I was on there giving a lot of facts on the Moors - before I got kicked off that is - the forum nearly closed down i heard because so many people finding out I was on there saying the things I was.

Too bad the forum moderators were so sensitive though and blocked me for talking back to one of their prized no-nothing customers. [Wink]

Compared to other sites(Forumbiodiversity being one), Historum is okay. But my god the Mods can be annoying and strict. You have to be careful. They'll ban you for anything. Now most the people are Historum are not hardcore Euronuts. I mean they are happy when you post interesting things about Africa and African people and are more opened minded compared to other people from different sites. But when it comes to the Moors and Ancient Egyptians(North Africans in general), thats when they have a problem.

It seems when people on the African site are proving their point, the thread always gets locked. Now you can't post anything that has to do with genetics on that site, because most users were proving with genetics that the Ancient Egyptians(and North Africans) were really African.

All I am saying is that the Mods on Historum can be tricky. They'll lock any thread they don't like for BS reason. But at least Historum is not no Forumbiodiversity where the mods are full blown RACIST!

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dana marniche
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Yes, OK I see the thread, thanks.
Looks like Jehosaphats is mentioning some of the same info on that thread. I'm glad he has the staying power he has had there as they sure need some black folk on there.

"Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: 'All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years.' (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101)"

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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

Lol> I was on that forum with Jehosafats and we agreed on a lot of things. I told him that in fact - that he knows what he is talking about. But due to the fact I was on there giving a lot of facts on the Moors - before I got kicked off that is - the forum nearly closed down i heard because so many people finding out I was on there saying the things I was.

Too bad the forum moderators were so sensitive though and blocked me for talking back to one of their prized no-nothing customers. [Wink]

Compared to other sites(Forumbiodiversity being one), Historum is okay. But my god the Mods can be annoying and strict. You have to be careful. They'll ban you for anything. Now most the people are Historum are not hardcore Euronuts. I mean they are happy when you post interesting things about Africa and African people and are more opened minded compared to other people from different sites. But when it comes to the Moors and Ancient Egyptians(North Africans in general), thats when they have a problem.

It seems when people on the African site are proving their point, the thread always gets locked. Now you can't post anything that has to do with genetics on that site, because most users were proving with genetics that the Ancient Egyptians(and North Africans) were really African.

All I am saying is that the Mods on Historum can be tricky. They'll lock any thread they don't like for BS reason. But at least Historum is not no Forumbiodiversity where the mods are full blown RACIST!

To me Son, being semi-racist and sneaky as a LYIN_ss snake is worse than your everyday unthinking bigot.

Just as Dr. Van Sertima used to say in his lectures "because a half truth is worst than a lie, as we saw in the time of Hitler." [Wink]

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KING
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dana marniche


Blessings Empress Dana. Seeing you school them Boyz makes me happy That I still post on this forum.

Truth is that God made BLACKS(Africans, Indians) 1st and these people built up Egypt Harrapan, Hindu Kush, Elam etc. I always laugh at euros who "claim" they are Egyptian Indians. Really?? Egyptian and Indians were Caucsians?? Is that why White people get skin cancer in South Africa, Australia, North Africa at the Highest rates? Excuse me while I laugh, Bahahahah. Some Euros are truly Truthseekers and I credit them for not lieing to save there White Power base. Slowly Blacks and WHites are getting Closer. When Whites and Blacks realize we are in the same Boat, Then will we be able to protest the elites together.

The elites keep Blacks and Whites apart because its easier to conquer division.

Peace

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Son of Ra
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So Dana what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans?
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dana marniche
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
dana marniche


Blessings Empress Dana. Seeing you school them Boyz makes me happy That I still post on this forum.

Truth is that God made BLACKS(Africans, Indians) 1st and these people built up Egypt Harrapan, Hindu Kush, Elam etc. I always laugh at euros who "claim" they are Egyptian Indians. Really?? Egyptian and Indians were Caucsians?? Is that why White people get skin cancer in South Africa, Australia, North Africa at the Highest rates? Excuse me while I laugh, Bahahahah. Some Euros are truly Truthseekers and I credit them for not lieing to save there White Power base. Slowly Blacks and WHites are getting Closer. When Whites and Blacks realize we are in the same Boat, Then will we be able to protest the elites together.

The elites keep Blacks and Whites apart because its easier to conquer division.

Peace

lol! King don't call me an Empress like the Rasta man on Africa Resource.

I always love to see we agree on so much. I especially love to call out the Europeans that are giving credit where it is justly due to Africans. Those are the ones that are truly confident in who they are not just as white people, but as humans. It is true a lot of media pelites especially desire to keep blacks and whites playing the race card game.


It is also true blacks and whites in the U.S. are starting to see each other as having the same divine spark with the same need for human rights thanks to the likes of many whites I might add like Ed Schultz and some of the more progressive "white" people in the media, who are becoming fed up. Hopefully some of these more barbaric brethren here will one day see Middle Eastern people too as people rather than sending drones and bombs and soldiers to split their childrens' heads open.

Some of us blacks however are still seeing our problems as "a black thang" unfortunately and that has got to change too.

But that's of course a lot easier for people like me who believe in karma and past lives to say. [Wink]

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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
So Dana what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans?

Son - I doubt there is an "average" today if you go around the different parts of North AFrica. It probably depends on what part of North Africa you are in. I am sure you will see various shades of people all of varying admixture and phenotype depending on whether people are from the central parts, northern or southern regions of the Maghreb.

I have been told when you get away from the coasts however skin becomes a lot more brown rather quickly in the North African countries.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.



 -
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284), called the Wise was the King of Castile Spain, León and Galicia from 30 May 1252 until his death. From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.

Here is more from the The Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X. this section the famous Book of Games

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
So Dana what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans?

Son - I doubt there is an "average" today if you go around the different parts of North AFrica. It probably depends on what part of North Africa you are in. I am sure you will see various shades of people all of varying admixture and phenotype depending on whether people are from the central parts, northern or southern regions of the Maghreb.

I have been told when you get away from the coasts however skin becomes a lot more brown rather quickly in the North African countries.

It seems the populations are more concentrated in the coastal area. I thought the common look of North Africans were a mulatto type look.

Like this.

Morrocan
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Tunisia
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the lioness,
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Son of Ra there are a wide variety of types, that is the answer
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.



 -
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284), called the Wise was the King of Castile Spain, León and Galicia from 30 May 1252 until his death. From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.

Here is more from the The Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X. this section the famous Book of Games

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yes white converted MUSLIMS many of them descendants of SLAVES were in Spain LYIN_SS. Now they're in North AFrica. GET IT!? [Big Grin]
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Son of Ra
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@Lioness

I know that. I was asking which type was the majority.

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dana marniche
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I think the majority along the coast are probably somewhere between European or Syrian looking rather than like the mulattos you posted, but as I say it would probably depend today on the town you go to.

Not sure why the question is particularly relevant though.

--------------------
D. Reynolds-Marniche

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Son of Ra
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^^^I was curious.
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dana marniche
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For your info - oh feeble-minded troll - "The term mouro or Moor as used in the Cantigas included not only the Mudejars who were subject to Christian rule and the independent Muslims of the kingdoms of Granada and Morocco, but also the lands of Ultramar the lands occupied in Palestine, Syria and Egypt..." p. 84 Alfonso X and the Cantigas of Santa Maria. by J. F. Callahan.


BOOO YAH!


There goes your Euronut theory these are all depictions of Spanish MUSLIMS. ONLY GOD KNOWS what country these "MOORS" Alfonso was depicting WERE FROM.

CHECKMATE!


And it still doesn't change the fact the word Negro and Moor were synonyms for centuries for the Mozarabs - . Christians under Moorish rule.

Who cares what it meant for the author of the Cantigas which had nothing to do with its original significance. [Big Grin]

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
yes white converted MUSLIMS many of them descendants of SLAVES were in Spain LYIN_SS. Now they're in North AFrica. GET IT!? [Big Grin] [/QB]

shut up bitch, you're lying >


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


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________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada

Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death.
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.



The Almohad movement originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribal confederation of the Atlas Mountains of southern Morocco.

The Almohad Dynasty was a Moroccan Berber-Muslim dynasty founded in the 12th century that established a Berber state in Tinmel in the Atlas Mountains in roughly 1120.
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The Moorish army of almohad king Umar al-Murtada and Christian allies, readying for battle in the city of Marrakech

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.o

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.



 -
Alfonso X (23 November 1221 – 4 April 1284), called the Wise was the King of Castile Spain, León and Galicia from 30 May 1252 until his death. From the beginning of his reign, Alfonso employed Jewish, Christian and Muslim scholars at his court, primarily for the purpose of translating books from Arabic and Hebrew into Latin and Castilian, although he always insisted in supervising personally the translations.

Here is more from the The Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X. this section the famous Book of Games

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Why is there German calligraphy?

And dies it speak of the ethnic backgrounds of those in the images?

Who are they, and what was he trying to illustrate?

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
yes white converted MUSLIMS many of them descendants of SLAVES were in Spain LYIN_SS. Now they're in North AFrica. GET IT!? [Big Grin]

shut up bitch, you're lying >


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


 -
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada

Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) was an Almohad caliph who reigned in part of Morocco from 1248 until his death.
Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.



The Almohad movement originated with Ibn Tumart, a member of the Masmuda, a Berber tribal confederation of the Atlas Mountains of southern Morocco.

The Almohad Dynasty was a Moroccan Berber-Muslim dynasty founded in the 12th century that established a Berber state in Tinmel in the Atlas Mountains in roughly 1120.
 -
The Moorish army of almohad king Umar al-Murtada and Christian allies, readying for battle in the city of Marrakech

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.o [/QB]

Dana is right, Central European slaves were taken to Spain first.


 - Two systems of trade in the Slavic slaves in the 10th century.


The Cambridge Economic History of Europe: Trade and industry in the Middle Ages



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Ahmad Nazmi- Commercial Relations Between Arabs and Slavs (9th-11th centuries)
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We also deal with the Morisco converts.


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By the way, where in that illustration does it say those people were Moors?

I don't see it.

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Former post by Jari.


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http://books.google.com/books?id=6aLAeB5QiHAC&pg=PA157&dq=Moriscos++white+slaves&hl=en&ei=ob-PTuOnBpSFsgLPzoyFAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q= moriscos&f=false

This would help explain why we have descriptions of "White" Moors in Granda in 1526 less than what 30 or 40 give or take years after the Reconqista of Granda in 1492..
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quote:
Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
Dr. Lange, in his diary, wrote this interesting story:

"The capital of the kingdom of Granada is the city of the same name that rises above the hills on which is built so that no height opposition outside its walls can dominate its surroundings. Granada is almost twice that Nuremberg and in its surrounding mountains, even in the hottest days of the year, abundant snow, its inhabitants used to cool the wine. The city of Granada is just a dozen miles from the Mediterranean. You can, therefore, to arrive to Africa in three days, and four others can reach the western boundary of the world.
In the past, belonged to the Moorish Granada, had two kings during the wars of his later years and six years was besieged by King Ferdinand, whose army built to their doors to the small town dede Santa Fe, and whose wife, Isabel , conquered the seventh year for our faith sacrosanct.

Continue: half the population are white Moors, whose wives and daughters wear white pants sailor pants (almost identical to those used by shepherds in Germany),(la mitad de la población son moros blancos, cuyas mujeres e hijas visten blancos pantalones de marinero calzones (casi idénticos a los que en Alemania usan los pastores)
and also wear clothing that also white cover from the face to the calves, but, more importantly, they cover their faces. In order to be allowed to freely use this kind of attire, each must pay an annual tax to the emperor of a duchy. Those who do not want to enter the church on Sundays have to pay the priest a year real. Also in the hillsides of the city there are still deep caves to visit, in which a contingent of Christian captives (including a bishop) were locked at night and which are rented by day to make us work in all sorts of crafts.

And were: the aforementioned city reconquered the day of San Juan and for this reason every year the nobles and bourgeois dress up that day of Moors and Turks bearing shields and spears and celebrate a kind of burlesque profession that runs throughout the city at dawn . Later in broad daylight and held a mock victory. There is loose then, six or seven bulls in the market place for people to run and the sugar. Following comes the cavalry followed, dressed in costumes Moors and Turks, divided into two camps. They shoot each other complex and large muskets, loaded only with gunpowder saved, be pursued in all directions, pretending great surprises, now advancing, now receding and graceful attitudes adopted in the meantime.

We saw on the feast of San Juan Bautista and the Emperor himself participated in these games in Granada, in the presence of the Empress and a host of Portuguese bridesmaids. That same day three men were fatally injured by the bulls, and an old horse, wounded accidentally shot in the head, had to be finished there.

He continues: they are forbidden to those mentioned Moors (with severe penalties) the use of weapons, both in the field, and their houses, except a small knife to cut bread and another to puncture the meat (do not eat meat hunting and all that consumed comes from animals caged, tied enclosed in fences). And to this end the judges will make their home record twice a month.

Also, on our last day of stay in Granada invited the emperor to preside over my Lord with him, in a garden at the foot of the hill of the Alhambra, a Moorish show. Adorned with beautiful pearls and precious stones in necks, ears and arms, and dressed (almost as deacons for the Mass) according to the customs of his land, danced to the sound of flutes, violas and drums, after which three women fifty years and another that fell was about forty and sang while alive and amazing pagan rhythms, while the others clapped rhythmic shouting happily.

After the dance, some berries climbed to the top of the hill and danced on a tightrope stretched between two locations, and then opened her legs with a brazen, as he faces the Emperor, screaming in his native tongue: "Everyone who live here can get to heaven. "

After this performance was given to drinking water.

Also: young women with henna Castilla berries get their nails with a bright orange (they figure) gives a special attraction. In my opinion makes them resemble our miserable tanning is Nuremberg. Also considered shameful for a girl to take even one sip of wine. Therefore, all of water.In drink that city of Granada make all kinds of silk garments, but always black, indelible ink for lack of other colors and are slightly more expensive than in Germany, with the notable exception of Taffeta double, which here is very beautiful. Pearls are also cheap here.

There are also magnificent vineyards and a large winery near the walls of the city. At first, there was no place either in the palace to house the secret of my lord, and for two days we got to sleep on the floor, then the Moors rented white mats, which they demanded a deposit of 15 ducats.

We stayed two weeks in Granada and the July 7, thank God, we continue our journey joyfully.

Another detail: The Emperor's Palace was built by the Moors in the Alhambra hill, within the precincts of the city, and inside you can still see the curious and splendid bathrooms in the Moorish king who bathed with their wives, few of those who had all he wanted: he wanted to but after a bath, sent him an apple.

The water that runs through all the aforementioned palace (which is also a fish pond) also flows through almost all the other houses of the city. The water is unhealthy, and if you drink is easy to get sick from dysentery, but there was no other kind of water, nor wells. "

Dr. Johannes Lange. Journal, 1526


http://www.andalucia.cc/adn/0199nar.htm

If Moors looked like this..

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Why would he make the effort to say the half the Population was "WHITE" Moors. Why not just call them Moors if Whites were the original Moors..??and What/who were the other Moors,

Makes no damn sense..


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The prominent quaint essential question becomes, what part of Spain and Portugal was Alfonso X talking about?

Lioness or others, can you inform? Thanks in advance.


Alfonso X (10th (nickname)), king of Castilië and León,
Born: 23 november 1221, Toledo, Spain
Died: 4 april 1284, Sevilla, Spain

Partner in crime: Violante of Aragón (geh. 1246–1284) was Hungarian. Hence, Central European. She was the daughter of James I of Aragon. Hence "Aragon", no kidding.


Childeren: Sancho IV van Castilië, Ferdinand de la Cerda,

Parents: Ferdinand III van Castilië, Beatrix van Hohenstaufen
Zus: Eleonora van Castilië


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MILITARY HISTORY | RECONQUISTA Reconquista Timeline: Arab Conquest 711 - 754

Posted 22 Oct 2002

710

The Berber General Tariq ibn Ziyad took Tangier (Collins, 1983). Several Muslim expeditions raid across the straits into Spain, including a fairly large one led by a Berber called Tarif ibn Malluq.

Civil war between rival kings in Visigothic Spain; Achila in the north-east, and Roderic in the rest (Collins, 1983).

711 Transductine Promontories

Tariq ibn Ziyad invaded Spain with 7,000 Berber Infantry and 300 Arab Cavalry (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). King Roderic, who was campaigning against the Basques in the north Spain, headed south to face the new threat. Tariq's army, reinforced by a further 5,000 Berber Infantry, defeated 24-30,000 Visigoths (King Roderic) including a large number of cavalry on the Wadi-laqqa (possibly either the Guadalete or Salado rivers) (20 Jul); this was called the battle of the Transductine Promontories by the Christians. The Visigothic wings (under Sisbert and Oppa, disaffected relatives of the previous King) deserted and the centre crumbled with heavy losses. Many Visigoths are killed in the 3 day pursuit, including Roderic. Subsequently all the Berbers are mounted on captured horses. Tariq went on to take Toledo while a detachment under Mugit al-Rumi took Cordoba.

712

10-18,000 Arabs and Syrians arrived in Spain (Heath, 1980).

714

First Muslim campaigns in the lower Ebro (Collins, 1983).

718 or 722 Covadonga

Austerians defeated Muslims at Covadonga (Collins, 1983).

720

Arab conquest of Barcelona and Narbonne (Collins, 1983).

721 Toulouse

A mixed force of Aquitanians and Franks (Duke Eudo) defeated an Arab army (al-Samah) near Toulouse (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). The Franks quickly surround and kill Al-Samah and most of his force for the loss of only 1,500 men. .

725

Muslim raid reached Autun in Francia (Collins, 1983).

729

The Berber leader Munnus rebelled in Cerdanya, but despite being allied with Duke Eudo of Aquitaine, the rebellion was suppressed (Collins, 1983).

732 Tours and Poitiers

Tours

An Arab Army (Abd al-Rahman al-Ghafiqi) defeated a Aquitanian force (Duke Eudo) on the Garonne near Bordeaux (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). The Arabs then set about pillaging Aquitaine.

Poitiers

Eudo rallied Frankish reinforcements (Charles Martel) who caught the Arab raiders near Poitiers (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). Abd al-Rahman covered the retreat of his baggage train for some days, but was eventually forced to stand and fight to protect the loot. In the subsequent battle, the Franks, fighting mainly as infantry, defended high ground against repeated Arab Cavalry attacks. Toward evening Eudo and his Aquitanian Nobles rode around the flank of the Arabs and started looting the baggage train. Some Arab Cavalry moved to defend the baggage but other units, believing the Cavalry are retiring, broke. Confusion spread and Abd al-Rahman was killed by Austrasian spearmen. The Arabs broke when they discovered they were leaderless and left the field. There was no Frankish pursuit. (Arab sources record this as a 2 day battle.)

737

Arabs take Avignon in the Rhone Valley (Collins, 1983).

739-740

Berber revolts occurred in Africa and Spain (Collins, 1983). Rebels in North Africa defeated a Syrian force and kill its commander (Kulthum).

741-742

The 10,000 survivors of Kulthum's force arrived in Spain under a new leader (Talaba ibn Salama) (Collins, 1983; Heath, 1980). Talaba ibn Salama and the Jordanians settled in Cordoba, Seville got the Homs contingent, the Damascus contingent settled in Elvira, Qinnasrin in Jaen, and Palestine in Algeciras and Medina Sedonia. Civil war erupted between the Syrians and the Spanish Arabs the latter being supported by a contingent of African Arabs under abd al-Rahman ibn Habib.

742-746

Internal conflict continued in Al-Andalus (Collins, 1983).

References

Collins, R. (1983). Early Medieval Spain: Unity in Diversity, 400-1000 [2nd ed.]. NY: St. Martin's Press.

Heath, I. (1980). Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066 (2nd ed.). Wargames Research Group.


http://www.balagan.org.uk/war/reconquista/timeline0711.htm

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Son of Ra there are a wide variety of types, that is the answer

It's called ethnic group, I posted to you a list of ethnic groups in the past. You were scratching your head.

Eurocentrism has the tendency to claim people who show slight similarity to Europeans. You love to theorize about these things. However, practically it's completely rubbish.

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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).

But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?


From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.


As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.

My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.

Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.

Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.


In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.


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quote:
Figure 1. Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups in Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Samples
Binary marker phylogeny of the Y chromosome, showing mutations on the branches of the tree, and shorthand haplogroup names40 immediately beneath. Haplogroups unobserved in any sample are indicated by dashed branches on the tree. Below the phylogeny are given the percentages of chromosomes carrying the observed haplogroup. Abbreviations are as follows: n, sample size; h, Nei’s unbiased estimator of gene diversity. Data on North African populations are from the literature (see footnotes).
a Data from Bosch et al.34
b Data from Arredi et al.,47 with haplogroup prediction for hgG.
c Subhaplogroups of R1b3 were not typed in the Sephardic Jewish sample.

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quote:
Figure 2. Haplogroup Distributions in Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Populations
Haplogroup profiles of samples from the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands, published North African samples,34,47 and a Sephardic Jewish sample. Sectors in pie charts are colored according to haplogroup in the schematic tree to the right, and sector areas are propor- tional to haplogroup frequency. Sample names, abbreviations, and sizes (within pie charts) are indicated. Subhaplogroups of R1b3 were not typed in the Sephardic Jewish sample.

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quote:
Figure 4. Iberian, North African, and Sephardic Jewish Admixture Proportions among Iberian Peninsula Samples
Mean North African, Sephardic Jewish, and Iberian admixture proportions among Iberian samples, based on the mY estimator and on Moroccan, Sephardic Jewish, and Basque parental populations, are represented on a map as shaded bars on bar charts. Error bars indicate standard deviations, and three-letter codes indicate populations, as given in Figure 1.

 -



quote:
Figure 6. Diversity of Y-STR Haplotypes Belonging to Haplogroup R1b3
Reduced median network53 containing the eight-locus Y-STR (DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389II-I, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS439) haplotypes of 767 hgR1b3 chromosomes, from Iberian populations and the Sephardic Jewish and Moroccan parental samples used in admix- ture analysis. Circles represent haplotypes, with area proportional to frequency and colored according to population, as shown in the key. For Iberian data, hgs R1b3b, R1b3d, R1b3f, and R1b3g have been combined into hgR1b3, because these sublineages were not distin- guished in the Sephardic Jewish sample.

Susan M. Adams, Mark A. Jobling et al.


The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula

quote:
Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.
quote:
The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
Etc...


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929708005922


 -

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.

I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.

They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills. [Wink]

Singing in the Kashba

http://youtu.be/GuDrXA1RPQA


http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1364921

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).

But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?


From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.


As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.

My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.

Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.

Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.


In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.


 -

Thanks for answering my question.
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.

I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.

They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills. [Wink]

Singing in the Kashba

http://youtu.be/GuDrXA1RPQA


http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1364921

I can see the video. Thanks!

Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:


Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one. [/QB]

how can you continue ignore all the migration many centuries before the 16th century, Carthginians from Lebanon, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, especially Arabs, Sub Saharan Africans?

By 709, all of North Africa was under the control of the Arab caliphate

this is a 13th century manuscipt from Spain. It shows a berber Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada (died 1266) an Almohad caliph who
reigned in part of Morocco
 -
________________________________________^^^^Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada


Illustration from The Cantigas de Santa Maria
written in Galician-Portuguese during the reign of Alfonso X El Sabio (1221–1284) and often attributed to him.


from the same book The Cantigas de Santa Maria. book of games section, more Muslims:


 -
 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:


Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.

how can you continue ignore all the migration many centuries before the 16th century, Carthginians from Lebanon, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, especially Arabs, Sub Saharan Africans? [/QB]
Who said I am ignoring things???

1. I'm specifically talking about Northwest Africa.

2. Minus Carthage, the Maghreb area was not that populated.

3. Where is it stated that the Greeks occupied parts of Northwest Africa? The Greeks didn't extend that far into Africa. Again we're only talking Northwest Africa.

4. I know about Roman occupation in Northwest Africa. But how large was their presence? It seems just military officials.

5. The vandals were mostly a minority and didn't they leave?

6. I thought Arabs just used Northwest Africa as just an outpost?

Most of the areas of Northwest Africa like parts of Morocco and Algeria were not that populated by the times of the Moors. There were very few people living in the coastal region of the Maghreb. Heck dynasties like the Almoravid didn't even originate in the coastal areas, but the Sahara. And the Almoravid came much later.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century?....

Who said I am ignoring things???


The Maghreb is sparsely populated today because most is desert. However there is population density along the coast. On a relative basis these populated parts have been populated centuries before the 16th c


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

2. Minus Carthage, the Maghreb area was not that populated.


Bow you're saying "minus" Carthage
At it's height Carthage had half a million people, mainly Phoenicians from Lebanon


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

I know about Roman occupation in Northwest Africa. But how large was their presence? It seems just military officials.

Historian Theodore Mommsen estimated that under Hadrian nearly 1/3 of the eastern Namibia population (roughly modern Tunisia) was descended from Roman veterans.
The Roman military presence of North Africa was about 28,000 troops and auxiliaries in Namibia and the two Mauretanian provinces.

Also see Cyrenaica and Tripolitania
- the must be looked at on a relative basis as per population compared to what was before - sparse poulation of nomads


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

The vandals were mostly a minority and didn't they leave?


6th cent Byzantine scholar Procopius' said that the Vandals and Alans numbered 80,000 when they moved to North Africa,
Modern scholar Peter Heather estimates that they could have fielded an army of around 15,000–20,000.

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I thought Arabs just used Northwest Africa as just an outpost?


They had armies and three stages of conquest in Africa.
Arab Bedouin tribes intermarried with the local berber populations. Examples of these Arab Bedouin tribes migrated into North Africa in the 11th century

quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

There were very few people living in the coastal region of the Maghreb. Heck dynasties like the Almoravid didn't even originate in the coastal areas, but the Sahara. And the Almoravid came much later. [/QB]

The coastal regions had the most population density since the drying of the sahara. Libyans had armies large enough to challenge the Egyptians. They were thought to have input form Phoenicians or "Sea People" of across the Mediterranean

Before the Almovarids
North Africa was conquered by he Umayyads.
In 693 AD, Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan sent an army of 40,000 men, commanded by Hasan ibn al-Nu'man, into Cyrenaica and Tripolitania in order to remove the Byzantine threat to the Umayyads advance in North Africa. Spain was conquered by the Umayyads beginning in 711.

I
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
From http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-8478.html

Beginning with the Arab conquest of the western Maghrib in the 8th
century, Mauritania experienced a slow but constant infiltration of Arabs
and Arab influence from the north
. The growing Arab presence pressed
the Berbers, who chose not to mix with other groups, to move farther
south into Mauritania, forcing out the Black inhabitants. By the 16th
century, most Blacks had been pushed to the Senegal River. Those
remaining in the north became slaves cultivating the oases.

After the decline of the Almoravid Empire, a long process of arabization
began in Mauritania, one that until then had been resisted successfully by
the Berbers. [u]Several groups of Yemeni Arabs who had been devastating
the north of Africa turned south to Mauritania[/u]. Settling in northern
Mauritania, they disrupted the caravan trade, causing routes to shift east,
which in turn led to the gradual decline of Mauritania's trading towns. One
particular Yemeni group, the Bani Hassan, continued to migrate southward
until, by the end of the 17th century, they dominated the entire
country. The last effort of the Berbers to shake off the Arab yoke was the
Mauritanian Thirty Years' War (1644-74), or Sharr Bubba, led by Nasir ad
Din, a Lemtuna imam (see Glossary). This Sanhadja war of liberation
was, however, unsuccessful; the [u]Berbers were forced to abandon the
sword and became vassals to the warrior Arab groups[/u].

Thus, the contemporary social structure of Mauritania can be dated from
1674. The warrior groups or Arabs dominated the Berber groups, who
turned to clericalism to regain a degree of ascendancy. At
the bottom of the social structure were the slaves, subservient to both
warriors and Islamic holy men. [u]All of these groups, whose language was
Hassaniya Arabic, became known as Maures[/u]. The bitter rivalries and
resentments characteristic of their social structure were later fully
exploited by the French.


alTakruri notes:
Missing from the essay is the first Arab attack against Ghana
which was utterly smashed. A few Arabs fled back north
across the Sahara but the majority of the invading forces
settled down in the Tagant and the Hodh under suzeriegnty
of Ghana where they became the Honethin (sp?)

The Capsians were the last of the hunter gather cultures that ended around 6000 BC. After the drying of the Sahara came North Africa became sparsely populated until the Phoenicians came around 1000-800 BC
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Son of Ra
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@Lioness

The Maghreb is sparsely populated today because most is desert. However there is population density along the coast. On a relative basis these populated parts have been populated centuries before the 16th c

I am not talking about the Sahara part of the Maghreb, but6 the coastal part. The coastal part was mostly sparsely populated, excluding Tunisia which was occupied by Carthage. What I am saying there really wasn't any large cities in the Maghreb during antiquity. There were no large cities in areas like Morocco or Algeria during the times of the Ancient Egyptians, Greeks or Romans. The South(Sahel), became more advanced before the Maghreb. I believe Jari explains everything in more detail here.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=006448

Bow you're saying "minus" Carthage At it's height Carthage had half a million people, mainly Phoenicians from Lebanon

How many people did OTHER parts of the Maghreb have??? Again during antiquity, what other parts of the coastal Maghreb have large scale cities like Carthage?

Historian Theodore Mommsen estimated that under Hadrian nearly 1/3 of the eastern Namibia population (roughly modern Tunisia) was descended from Roman veterans.
The Roman military presence of North Africa was about 28,000 troops and auxiliaries in Namibia and the two Mauretanian provinces.

Also see Cyrenaica and Tripolitania
- the must be looked at on a relative basis as per population compared to what was before - sparse poulation of nomads


Now which area besides Tunisia(Carthage) in the Maghreb has a significant population? Tunisia was already known to the Romans due to Carthage and the Phoenicians. Carthage was in Tunisia and I already know Tunisia has a large population.

Now addressing your post. Were those Romans limited to Tunisia? Because I am talking about the coastal Maghreb as a whole. Did MOST of those Roman soldiers stay or did they return to Rome? I understand they could have intermixed with the locals.

And is 28,000 troops significant? Again I am not talking about Tunisia, but mostly Morocco and Algeria.

6th cent Byzantine scholar Procopius' said that the Vandals and Alans numbered 80,000 when they moved to North Africa, Modern scholar Peter Heather estimates that they could have fielded an army of around 15,000–20,000.

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Vandals expelled from North Africa by the Romans?

They had armies and three stages of conquest in Africa. Arab Bedouin tribes intermarried with the local berber populations. Examples of these Arab Bedouin tribes migrated into North Africa in the 11th century

True.

The coastal regions had the most population density since the drying of the sahara. Libyans had armies large enough to challenge the Egyptians. They were thought to have input form Phoenicians or "Sea People" of across the Mediterranean

Again talking about Northwest Africa. Specifically Morocco and Algeria.

Before the Almovarids
North Africa was conquered by he Umayyads.
In 693 AD, Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan sent an army of 40,000 men, commanded by Hasan ibn al-Nu'man, into Cyrenaica and Tripolitania in order to remove the Byzantine threat to the Umayyads advance in North Africa. Spain was conquered by the Umayyads beginning in 711.


But what happened to the Umayyads when the Almoravid came? Before the Almoravid's went into the Coastal area and Iberia. The coastal area of the Maghreb was sparsely populated. Berber tribes were so spread out. Most Berber tribes that invaded Iberia came from the South(sahara).

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:


Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Vandals expelled from North Africa by the Romans?


The Vandals and other Germanic groups took over Roman territories in Europe and North Africa in Carthage (429)
They ruled for about a hundred years.
The Romans regained control in 533 under the Byzantine Justinian but quickly had trouble controlling it.
The Arabs began taking over around 642.


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

All I am saying is that the bulk of the Eurasian admixture in Northwest Africans came mostly during the 15th century.



the population of the entire world had increased drastically from the 15th c to now but still not too heavy in the green region here:
 -

you can't confuse a sparse population with the proportion of admixture.

If a sparse population of 100 people had 60% foreign admixture a population 10 times that amount> 10,000 might only have 5% foreign admixture.

Was the population of Morocco predominantly indigenous North African from 1-15th centuries?

there are some berber tribes mentioned by the Greeks and Romans (and some of these Greeks and Romans say they originated in Troy, others Persia or other non-African places) but even if they were completely indigenous African there were no civilizations or large settlements of them.
After the decertification, the Phoenicians were the first to establish larger settlements, 8th century BC.

As to Greek accounts of local tribes read this, it takes a while>


Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE

Herodotus: The Histories, c. 430 B.C., Book IV.
Strabo: Geography, c. 22 A.D., XVII.iii.1-11.
Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. 550 A.D. Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29


 -

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
"Contrary to a widely held assumption, black slavery in Morocco is a modern phenomenon (or ancien regime), not a Medieval one. Blacks from the Western Sudan were first imported in great numbers during the Saadian dynasty (16th century) to be employed in the sugar industry. This industry collapsed when cheaper sugar from Brazil flooded the European market. The heyday of slavery in Morocco came later, in the 17th-18th century."

That is also something some of us like to ignore as well. Most of the blacks brought to North Africa slaves came after the 15th century. The black people in North Africa were not slaves but Berbers of the 5 great tribes and the Arabians of Sulaym-Hilal or Mudar (of northern Arabian) stock.

Dana. This thread may interest you.
http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/59751-myth-trans-saharan-slave-trade.html

The poster jehosafats knows his stuff.

Here I post a link of a Dutch TV show called "Atlas". It's a competition of famous Dutch personalities who battle each other, the whole rivalry takes place in Morocco, Atlas.

I don't know if you will be able to see any of this, due to regional blocking. But if you do see something, let me know. It's in Dutch of course, but images tell a lot.

They are at a casbah. You will see what local people look like. No gimmicks and no frills. [Wink]

Singing in the Kashba

http://youtu.be/GuDrXA1RPQA


http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1364921

I can see the video. Thanks!

Also do you agree that the Maghreb/Northwest Africa was sparsely populated prior to the 16th century? Which is why the non African population EASILY displaces the African one.

Glade you could see it.


I would not say 16th century necessarily. But yes, on the sparsely.


Most of the Magreb you speak of is Rif, mountain region.


More towards the South it becomes dessert. With Oasis.

 -


Ancient Greek settlements at North Africa were very local and small.

 -


Most of the foreign populations remained at the coast, since it's hard to enter beyond the Rif and dessert. Which only indigenous Nomadic pastoral populations are familiar with, such as the Tuareg and Fula.


" During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004)."

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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Okay we all know that Northwest Africans are an extremely diverse group of people. We know that their Y-DNA is predominantly African while their MtDNA is diverse/mixed. Geneticist often say Northwest Africans are a result of Eurasian females and African males. Correct me if I am wrong, but I usually hear that. We obviously know North Africa was populated by Africans since the OOA(though some Eurocentrics would beg to differ). We know the during the 15th century, that's the time when we mostly see Eurasian admixture(mostly from Europe).

But since Northwest Africans are so genetically diverse. What is the average type phenotype found among Northwest Africans?


From my real life personal experience I have to go with A. From what I've seen most Northwest Africans seem to have this mulatto type look going on. I haven't seen a lot of NW Africans but the ones I've seen look like mulattos. Second would be D which would be the middle eastern type look. IMO I think the European and stereotypical African look are the minority phenotype among Northwest Africans.


As for origins. Dana who is a specialist on this topic said there were no European/white Berbers until the 15th century. I actually agree with her. Its been stated that the vast majority of slaves around the Mediterranean, from antiquity to roughly the 1700s, were of European origin. Jawhar al-Siqill, the founder of Cairo, was a Sicilian-born slave. It is also likely that European slaves were even present in the kingdoms of the Sahel and savannahs. Like I said in my thread about my novel to Sundiate, the demand for Turkish slaves in Timbuktu was fairly high.

My theory of the origins of modern Northwest Africans is that when the Moors conquered Iberia and other parts of Southern Europe, the local European population under their rule converted to Islam then started to be called Moors while the Moorish armies remained made up of Blacks/Africans. When the Christians took over Spain and expelled the Muslims, who at this point were almost all European with slight admixture of African fled to North Africa. These are the modern populations of North Africa and are mostly African/African mixed and European, because from what I heard, north Africa was sparsely populated to begin with. They then displaced the local African/blacks into a more southward direction.

Conclusion: IMO I think the bulk of modern Northwest Africans are the result of Expelled Muslims from Europe and Enslaved Europeans.

Stereotypical these are the most common types in the North of Northwest Africa.


In the post above you'll see the stereotypical types from Central and South Northwest Africa.


 -

Thanks for answering my question.
Its ok,


Here are a few famous ones,


Lorine Zineb Nora Talhaoui (Loreen)


 -  -

Amel Bent

 -



Amelle Berrabah

 -


http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/23700000/Amelle-Berrabah-sugababes-23747517-1280-1024.jpg

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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Jehosfats claims:
Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: "All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the? Persian Gulf supported by? free East Africans who had made their? homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years." (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101)
-------------------------------- --------------


I question the claim of "jehosafats" that the Zanj
revolt was not a slave revolt or that the rebels were
"Arabs" of the Persia Gulf. It seems rather shaky.
Below is my original challenge to a similar claim- circa 2010.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by markellion:
Does anyone think the Zanj in the Zanj
rebellion really could have been immigrants and not
slaves?


Shabin has some interesting points but his arguments
are rightly questioned by others as noted in the
reference- (Nigel D. Furlonge "Revisiting the Zanj and
Re-Visioning Revolt: Complexities of the Zanj Conflict".
Negro History Bulletin) For example he argues that slave labor
was not a factor in the economy. This is
contradicted by books such as Ronald Segal's
"Islam's Black Slaves" which maintains that indeed,
the Zanj were employed in a variety of capacities
that added significantly to economic output. It is
also contradicted by Bernard Lewis' well
documented "Race and Slavery in the Middle East."

The salt trade is just one example of how slaves
were employed. Indeed in some of the Saharan areas
of Africa, black slaves were used by Arab masters to
mine salt in brutal conditions. On Zanzibar, Arab
masters deployed large numbers of black slaves in
the clove plantations. Brutal Arab exploitation of
black labor in forced conditions is a long-standing
historical fact. See
http://www.nathanielturner.com/blackenslavementar
abeuropean.htm for a detailed comparison between
Arab and European slavery which discusses these
issues.

Shabin's argument that since Islam had black slaves
as well as white/other slaves then race was not a factor
minimizes the fact that it was the black slaves that
bore the brunt of the miserable working conditions,
and it was they that supplied the muscle, bone and
sinew for the revolt, not white slaves. Also the Zanj
rebellion was only the biggest and most successful of
a SERIES of rebellions by black slaves in the area.
These black revolts were nothing new for the time.
Just because there were other revolts for various
reasons among other groups does not change the
fact that it was black slaves who staged their own
revolt.

We can always say "race was not a factor" by
drawing a narrow definition and comparing it to the
18th and 19th century black-white clashes. But if
there is no documented Zanj Toussaint L'overture,
the bottom line is that it was still rebellion by
oppresssed people who happened to be be black. No
about of definition or redefinition or revisionism will
change that fact.

Shabin's notion that the revolt participants were
mostly Arabs and "free" East Africans who lived in
Iraq is contradicted by solid documentary evidence
to the contrary. His attempt to minimize the black
component with the notion that slaves were not
important due to the economic importance of trade,
agains seems to ignore the fact that the very same
"trade" involved black bodies. If "trade" was
important, black bodies made up a significant slice
of it, not only in Iraq but in the Arab world as well.
The prophet Muhammed himself traded in slaves,
and in his city, holy Mecca, it was black bodies that
did the dirtiest work: QUOTE: “shining pitch black
Negro slaves” were used in Mecca for “the hardest
work of building, quarrying, etc.” —[Lewis Race
and Slavery in the Middle East]

Shabin argues that more than the Zanj were
involved. Of course. This is History 101 with many
revolts. A number of revolts in Haiti for example
sometimes involved more privleged creole or
"colored" groups as opposed to the darker blacks.
When the main black revolt broke out, it too got
support from sources other than strictly blacks, like
the Spanish authorities in Santo Domingo at times
for example. Toussaint himself fought for a time on
the French side, and was in turn opposed by mulatto
leaders who collaborated with the French. Yes,
revolts and rebellions can be complex things. Haiti is
of course better docunmented and fits the modern
black vs white mold, but to say that because of these
other complexities that the Haitian Revolution was
not a black thing would be a travesty of history. It is
a similar travesty of history to attempt to
"whitewash" or "Arabize" the Zanj Rebellion. It was
called the Zanj Rebellion for a reason, and the
bottom line again, is that oppressed slaves who were
mostly black, rose for their freedom. Whether they
were joined by a variety of allies with other agendas
does not change this basic bottom line.

Shabin also argues that the well organized army of
the Zanj showed others were involved. Yes of
course, but among those "others" were the
well-trained black contingents that defected from the
defeated caliphal armies to join the Zanj. No matter
how much folks try to "whitewash" or "Arabize" the
Zanj, those pesky negroes keep filling the picture.
Shabin's "others involved" argument is ultimately
unconvincing. It should be noted that a good portion
of the evidence for the Zanj as a "black" revolt
comes from Arab writers openly contemptuous of
the black freedom fighters. QUOTE: "Tabari and
Masudi clearly represent the Zanj as vile,
heathenous, aggressive, and animal-like. Masudi is
especially negative in his depictions of the Zanj."

Nevertheless, despite attempts to dehumanize them
by Arab historians, it is a fact that the black fighters
and yes, their allies, but primarily the black fighters,
kicked ass for 14 years, defeating several caliphal
Arab armies sent against them, almost capturing
Bagdhad one of the major cities in Islam at the time,
and even invading and conquering some areas in
Iran. The bottom line is who they were, and what
they did.

The Zanj have always made Muslim apologists
nervous because their case contradicts the simplistic
narrative of a kinder, gentler Islamic handling of
black folk that those evil, white Christians. But a
sober reading of history shatters this simplistic
picture of Arab Muslim goodness. Black nationalist
writers have long debunked this myth, pointing to
the destruction of black civilization and culture by
Arab Muslims on a variety of fronts. We no longer
give the white academy and their allies a free pass
when it comes to ancient Egypt. Neither should we
give Arab Muslims a free pass when it comes to the
negative role they have sometimes played in black
history.

--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------

Both Noldeke's and Shabin's interpretations
continue to be questioned. For instance, Popovic
suggests that the Zanj revolt could be characterized
in several ways from primarily a slave revolt to
an ethnic or class conscious struggle. As Popovic
explains, there is no reason why all motivating
factors did not operate simultaneously. Merchants
and traders concerned with preserving their economic
interests likely supported Ali. b. Muhammad as he
tried to topple an Abbasid government they saw as
infringing on their "rights." Enslaved Africans
referred to as the Zanj likely rebelled against
the degradation and oppression they experienced
at the hands of their owners. Free Africans residing
in Iraq possibly conceived the conflict in racial
terms and took the opportunity to act on behalf
of their enslaved brethren and to advance their
own interests. In addition, some Arabs and Africans
probably believed that once the enslaved converted
to Islam, it was their obligation to free the Zanj
from slavery. Some if not all of these factors were
at work during the revolt.

--Nigel D. Furlonge "Revisiting the Zanj and
Re-Visioning Revolt: Complexities of the Zanj Conflict".
Negro History Bulletin- 1999

 -

Posts: 5107 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KING
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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova

Blessings Brother.

Hit the Nail on the Head. Unwise people would come and see these Fakerabs claim Islam for Blacks yet NEVER even say ANYTHING about how fakerabs were enslaving, raping and murdering there "brothers" all in the name of Muhammad and earlier then What euros did.

Remember How Diop and Obenga schooled the racists in Unesco and the Whites ADMITTED that Egypt Was not Eurasian. It was the FAKERABS who denied Blacks Egypt. One from Egypt and Sudan said Blacks had nothing to do with Egypt even though Diop and Obenga refuted them every step of the way.

Now fakerabs want to claim the Zanj rebellion?? REally. Anything of value these Euros and fakerabs want to keep for themselves even if its and slave revolt. Wonder if these racists even know that 1st Slaves were the Slavs. When they call Blacks "abeed" I wonder what they call Whites. I also laugh at these racists because there Beloved Ishmael was Part Egyptian from Hagar. That's why no matter how much truth you show them they will DENY DENY etc. Because admitting that Ishamel was half Black would shatter there superiority complex.



I would rather support Persians before fakerabs because I remember AN person posting where an Iran man claimed to be "brown" not white(shocking). I also go downtown and see my Persian brothers rocking Dat AFRO with pride. Wish Black woman would see AFRO as an beautiful thing and stop killing there hair. Rather an AFROcan then an dead hair woman.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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lol.. amen brother...
Posts: 5107 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Jehosfats claims:
Neither was the Zanj revolt a slave revolt. One observant modern commentator puts it this way: "All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources. [...] The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the? Persian Gulf supported by? free East Africans who had made their? homes in the region [...] If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years." (M. A. Shaban, 'Regional Economic Conflicts': 101)

Hummmm,

Al-Jahiz, Book of the Glory of the Blacks Over the Whites

Posts: 18907 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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