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Author Topic: The 'Average' Northwest African Phenotype/Origins of Northwest Africans
KING
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Interesting. ^

its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways. Either like light skinned blacks with hair that look like brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See whites want to discard the ones who, if they were in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks.
To question Blacks and or Africans is the MO of the euro established world. Why go with African truth, when the whites can instead make up whatever they want and the villiage tom will believe it.

Look at Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda) but euros are taking DNA etc to confirm what was confirmed by these Blacks AND Greeks like Herodutus etc. They will fight their own people when they are African supporters because in lioness er um I mean the euros eyes there word trumps anyone elses even if they have to make up there own fantasy of Africans like "Aliens built Egypt" "Lost white tribe" blah blah blah. They are desperate to write themselves in the motherland because deep down they are empty and desperate to think they come from greatness, instead of just being happy to be human with a chance at eternal life.

Just gotta get more Africans like Dr. Winters to keep speaking not caring if euros agree or not. Why should they always have the last word?

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
thank you now you have done a proper source

now Son of Ra I dont have time now but he said or defence minister is black and somebody else, check the photos

I still dont think Libya is half black just because he said it is
They had no census indicating this

The interview is 2011 not 2013 as he claimed

I'm checking right now. Though the Libyan "blacks" could be "Arabized" like those Sudanese people who claim Arab yet look like this.
 -

On the census they could just choose "Arab" instead "black".

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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Interesting. ^

its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways ie dark black or light skinned black. Many of the light skinned blacks have hair that looks like Brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those Khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See, whites want to discard the ones who are light skinned. Which is interesting because if you saw these same people in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks. It is only in North Africa that these whites start getting these funny definitions.
To be honest I don't know that much about Libyans. I'm more informed on Egyptians and to some extent Moroccans.

Do you feel like posting pics of these Libyans that fit your description? Just asking.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Interesting. ^

its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways ie dark black or light skinned black. Many of the light skinned blacks have hair that looks like Brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those Khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See, whites want to discard the ones who are light skinned. Which is interesting because if you saw these same people in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks. It is only in North Africa that these whites start getting these funny definitions.
To be honest I don't know that much about Libyans. I'm more informed on Egyptians and to some extent Moroccans.

Do you feel like posting pics of these Libyans that fit your description? Just asking.

I am not into the picture spam game, that to me is useless. Just go there and see. A few pictures from the internet are absolutely useless in proving anything. I am also confused as to how black Africans being arabized means much of anything? Blacks in the west have been anglicized and europeanized, does it make them any less African in terms of their origin? No, not at all.

*edit*

I saw your comment about people choosing "Arab" on census even though they have black skin. I see your point. But again, it strengthens my point, you really need to go and see for yourself.

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Son of Ra
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You saying blacks in the west being anglicized, while blacks in Sudan being Arabized are two different things. Blacks in the west still claim black and check black on the census.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Interesting. ^

its only interesting for people who don't know Libyans. I know many of them. You have white ones and the half caste sure. But the over whelming majority of them look one of two ways. Either like light skinned blacks with hair that look like brillo pads. I have seen them myself. Some are very fair skinned, and then they have hair like those khoisan people, I have seen this with my own eyes. Then I have seen others that are black like oil. See whites want to discard the ones who, if they were in America or somewhere else in the western world, they would be called black people. But to perpetuate eurocentric lies, they want to discard the light ones. I mean these people have mixed for a long time, so naturally you are going to have people ranging in all spectra of the "black" range. Even in Nigeria, Sierra Leone and other places you see jet black to very light skinned people, but no one would question that any of them are not blacks.
To question Blacks and or Africans is the MO of the euro established world. Why go with African truth, when the whites can instead make up whatever they want and the villiage tom will believe it.

Look at Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda) but euros are taking DNA etc to confirm what was confirmed by these Blacks AND Greeks like Herodutus etc. They will fight their own people when they are African supporters because in lioness er um I mean the euros eyes there word trumps anyone elses even if they have to make up there own fantasy of Africans like "Aliens built Egypt" "Lost white tribe" blah blah blah. They are desperate to write themselves in the motherland because deep down they are empty and desperate to think they come from greatness, instead of just being happy to be human with a chance at eternal life.

Just gotta get more Africans like Dr. Winters to keep speaking not caring if euros agree or not. Why should they always have the last word?

I think the problem is white guilt. They are the last ones in recent history to really cause all sorts of havoc and destruction to many groups of people across the world, but most especially Africans. To make it ok psychologically, they have to dehumanize those they have, and continue to criminalize. Think about a serial killer, in order for him to make it ok in his mind to go out and kill and eat women, he has to make women into objects, a thing or animal. He can't look at that person as a fellow human. That would be very difficult to reconcile within themselves psychologically. Same thing with eurocentrics. They have to come to terms with the facts that they have and continue to do very heinous things in Africa. They can only do that by either dehumanizing Africans, or making them seem "less than" and as such, now they are tasked with "saving the baby minded African". Never mind we had civilization while they were painting themselves blue in caves and running around eating each other. This is a very complex issue to be honest.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
You saying blacks in the west being anglicized, while blacks in Sudan being Arabized are two different things. Blacks in the west still claim black and check black on the census.

Sudani people most definitely consider themselves black, the word Sudan means (blacks) literally, in Arabic. What they do not do is equate themselves as the same as SOME other black groups. You are taking western minded black mentalities and applying it to non western blacks. That doesn't work. Remember, Arab is not a race, it is a ethnicity. There are jet black people all over the middle east. Who are considered to be indigenous black to the area. Like the hadrami people in Yemen, tahama or those indigenous blacks in the khaleej and the islands off the cost like Bahrain etc etc etc
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lyinass,:

thank you now you have done a proper source

Unlike YOU! LOL [Big Grin]

quote:
now Son of Ra I don't have time now but he said or defense minister is black and somebody else, check the photos.
So what?

quote:
I still don't think Libya is half black just because he said it is
They had no census indicating this

LOL [Big Grin] As Typezeis, you have a problem taking his word for it even though not only is he a citizen of that country by an actual government official. It makes me wonder how you would react if say a census was produced confirming what he says. What then? You will just say it is inaccurate.

quote:
The interview is 2011 not 2013 as he claimed
So, it is even older than he thought. What then? Are you saying the demographics have changed since then? LOL [Big Grin]

This lyinass twit is pathetic!

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

I'm checking right now. Though the Libyan "blacks" could be "Arabized" like those Sudanese people who claim Arab yet look like this.
 -

On the census they could just choose "Arab" instead "black".

Interesting point. It must be remembered that notions of "black" are different in North Africa. Where many who would be called 'black' in America would NOT in North Africa but be called 'Arab' or 'Berber' instead. We have cited studies before showing that Libya overall has demographics more in common with Egypt than the rest of the Maghreb. Recently I've seen videos of Libya during and after the revolution against Qaddafi and the people look just like Egyptians i.e. lighter-skinned mixed to even off-white people along the northern coasts with blacks being more common in the south around the Fezzan area though not exclusive to that area since 'blacks' are still not uncommon around northern cities like Tripoli and Benghazi. That said, at least from all the videos I've seen, Saif would indeed be correct that about half the population is or rather would be considered 'black' by Western standards. This is no secret. Even Euros on the other side of the Mediterranean in Greece, Albania, and Italy still call Libyans names like 'moros' or 'negras'.

But of course, reality is something that is not taken into account by Euronut lyinasses.

 -

^ The map above gives a rough ethnic demographic layout of Libya. Of course the Tuareg are a Berber ethnic group as well so 'Berber' in the map really means other Berber groups. Considering the FACT that both Tuareg and Toubou groups are indeed 'black' and the majority of the populace classified as 'Arab' also includes 'black' types or mixed black types then there would be little doubt as to Saif Qaddafi's claims.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:

... Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda)

.

Really?

And just where can I go and read Egyptians saying that?

Precise Egyptian document(s) -- no Greek geographers like
Strabo or Ptolemy -- please, text and line if you don't mind.

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Son of Ra
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@Djehuti

Good post. Yeah Western idea of "black" and North Africa's idea of "black" are different.

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Tyrannohotep
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Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Well I know in the case of Morocco, the Maurabitoun architecture was destroyed once they fell. I believe there is only a hand full of buildings still left from that period. North Africa, like there West African brothers built with adobe, so a lot of things have not stood the test of time do to successive take overs. When I get a chance I can provide some evidence on that one.
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

It's the same with Egypt! The vast majority of Egyptians today since Islamic times live in the Delta in contrast to pharaonic times when the majority lived in the valley. I don't disagree with you that stereotypical "Mediterraneans" might indeed outnumber the black ones, but at the same time just like Egypt, the number of blacks could also be underestimated.

quote:
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
You may be right about that. Remember that the great urban civilization of Libya that truly was indigenous was the Gramantes who lived to the south in the Fezzan region. Mind you that although the coastal areas were colonized by Phoenicians, there were indeed indigenes who lived along the coasts as well and that it is historical fact that Carthage though a Phoenician colony its civilization largely became the result of fusion with indigenous Africans.

quote:
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
True. Note also the influences in clothing and hairstyle. Which was why many Carthagean and other Maghrebi rulers despite their ancestry adopted Greco-Roman style dress and hairstyles. This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".
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Son of Ra
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@Truthcentric

The thing is most those "Mediterranean" looking North Africans of the coastal part mostly came recently after the 14/15th century from Europe after the Moorish period. The important thing is that during the Moorish period most of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. So it would be easy for those newcomers to "outnumber" the indigenous people.

The Moors are differently a part of African heritage, because the Berbers as a whole are African and most Berber groups have a native Berber culture. I don't know why you brought up Hannibal since he is most likely of Phoenician descent like you hinted. And also Carthage was really the only major urban setting in NW.

But this threads not about the Moors, Carthage or wanting them as a collective heritage, but what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans today.

IMO most modern day Northwest Africans descend from expelled Muslims(European/African/Middle Eastern) from Southern Europe and enslaved Europeans.

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Tyrannohotep
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Truthcentric

The thing is most those "Mediterranean" looking North Africans of the coastal part mostly came recently after the 14/15th century from Europe after the Moorish period. The important thing is that during the Moorish period most of Northwest Africa was sparsely populated. So it would be easy for those newcomers to "outnumber" the indigenous people.

The Moors are differently a part of African heritage, because the Berbers as a whole are African and most Berber groups have a native Berber culture. I don't know why you brought up Hannibal since he is most likely of Phoenician descent like you hinted. And also Carthage was really the only major urban setting in NW.

But this threads not about the Moors, Carthage or wanting them as a collective heritage, but what is the average phenotype of Northwest Africans today.

IMO most modern day Northwest Africans descend from expelled Muslims(European/African/Middle Eastern) from Southern Europe and enslaved Europeans.

But what about the predominance of Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in the remains of pre-Neolithic North Africans that Swenet shared with us in one of his threads? What about those ancient Egyptian images of olive-skinned people among the Libyans?
 -
(Libyan is the furthest left)

Mind you, I don't have a problem accepting that Northwest Africa could have undergone some radical demographic changes in the last few millennia the way Egypt did. What I am skeptical about is the claim that the whole Eurasian presence in the region can be attributed to demographic movements that recent.

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Djehuti
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^ By pre-Neolithic Eurasian mtDNA I take it you mean this study:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378

I am somewhat skeptical that the entry of this hg goes back to Holocene times, namely because there are no downstream markers specific to Africa that are found among the populations who carry it today i.e. Libyan Tuareg who carry it at about 61%.

That said, I do think this hg entered North Africa in ancient times and as Ausar and Tukuler have stated no earlier than the late Middle Kingdom as can be seen in Egyptian texts and descriptions of Libyans.

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Son of Ra
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@Truthcentric

I never heard of a predominance of Eurasian mtDNA before the neolithic, unless you're talking about U6.

Also how far before the neolithic? Because by the time of the Moorish period, heck by the time of the Ancient Libyans. Those "Eurasian" Africans would have been African by now, especially U6.

"No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2148-12-234.pdf

Also IMO mtDNA tells us little and only gives us ancestry. Those Eurasians mtDNA could have been increased in frequencies by Africans themselves.

Also most Ancient Libyans I seen depicted by the Egyptians looked like this:
 -
 -
 -

Not saying you're wrong but like I said many times I believe the BULK of Eurasian admixture came during the Moorish period. Again during that period NW Africa was sparsely populated and those people could have easily displaced the indigenous people. Especially considering Berber groups during that time were spread out.

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Tyrannohotep
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ By pre-Neolithic Eurasian mtDNA I take it you mean this study:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378

I am somewhat skeptical that the entry of this hg goes back to Holocene times, namely because there are no downstream markers specific to Africa that are found among the populations who carry it today i.e. Libyan Tuareg who carry it at about 61%.

That said, I do think this hg entered North Africa in ancient times and as Ausar and Tukuler have stated no earlier than the late Middle Kingdom as can be seen in Egyptian texts and descriptions of Libyans.

I was referring more to this:
 -

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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:

... Ancient Egypt, They claim they came from the mountain of the moon(Uganda)

.

Really?

And just where can I go and read Egyptians saying that?

Precise Egyptian document(s) -- no Greek geographers like
Strabo or Ptolemy -- please, text and line if you don't mind.

My Bad Tukuler I couldn't find anything that stated this except for some puzzling things about the papyrus Hunefer. Dr Ben says he read it in Syracuse, but it could just be a mistranslated line.
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Tukuler
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@ TC - just a reminder of possible Hgs Kefi overlooked.

 - <== suppressed dissension

EDIT: wow I ran into Kefi on the street not long after
reposting my additions and now Imageshack took it
down! Never fear, there's more where that came from.
 -


@ CO/T King - so I no further detract this thread, check

* Edfu Text and Papyrus of Hunefer
* Mountain of the Moon
* Mountains of the Moon

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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
@ TC - just a reminder of possible Hgs Kefi overlooked.

 -

EDIT: wow I ran into Kefi on the street not long after
reposting my additions and now Imageshack took it
down! Never fear, there's more where that came from.

@ CO/T King - so I no further detract this thread, check

* Edfu Text and Papyrus of Hunefer

* Mountain of the Moon

* Mountains of the Moon

Thanks for this Tukuler.

So from reading the text from those threads 1 can say that:

1)inner Africa is Amami in the eyes of the AE "land of the ancestors". also Ta Ntr
2)the Mountains of the Moon is not the
Great Lakes. That Ruwenzori mountain
range is precisely the Mountains of the Moon located in Uganda and Congos

So from those 2 points it makes sense that people should critique, all sources and opinions because to ignore debating these truths, means the euros have legs to stand on, on there attack on African scholarship. Credit Tukuler for posting these informative threads and I urge all people to read and learn from them, the difference between good scholarship, and euro scholarship where people blindly follow everything that white people say is that Africans are not afraid to criticize there own...and then learning expands.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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 - [Big Grin]
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^ I don't know why this focus one of the Egyptians' origin legends to know they are indigenous to Africa. Yes the south was one of the areas they say their ancestors originated. Other legends hold their ancestors came from the West as well which is why the West is considered the 'Land of the Dead' i.e. an ancestral area also. The point is whether west in the Sahara or south towards the source of the Nile or right where they are in Egypt, it is ALL in Africa!
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

I was referring more to this:
 -

Oh that.
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

@ TC - just a reminder of possible Hgs Kefi overlooked.

 - <== suppressed dissension

EDIT: wow I ran into Kefi on the street not long after
reposting my additions and now Imageshack took it
down! Never fear, there's more where that came from.
 -


Indeed. One problem is that East Africa as the site of OOA hosts many mt hgs that date back to around the time of OOA or a little after that time so there are going to be shared SNP motifs with Eurasian clades and therefore some confusion. Northeast Africa in particular i.e. Libya to Egypt and Sudan show a high frequency of R, particularly upstream R0 (pre-HV) and pre-JT markers as well as U markers.
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Son of Ra
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Like I said most of these "Eurasians" mtDNA prior to the neolithic are no longer Eurasian and by the time of the Moors/Berbers they would have already mutated into African. Specifically U6.
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With Son of Ra's permission to carry on with this off topic:

DJ - what AE legends claim a west origin?
I only know of the Shemsu Hor legend/myth
which posits a south origin.

Mind you this has nothing to do with what
archaeology and genetics can tell us about
"Saharans" "migrating" east to the Nile in
Sudan and then moving north into Egypt nor
the folk who always resided in the Lower
Nile nor the Saharans who moved into delta.
Perhaps all these folk except the earliest
holocene Egyptians and the Deltas all come
out of the Khartoum culture.

So just focus on the mythological and legendary.


Co/t King - Well it seems obvious, at least to
me that a mountain range is not a lake. In this
case the range is situated within the Great Lakes
region.

 -

I trust this map precisely locates the
Ruwenzoris, the Mountains of the Moon,
for you. It is definitely in Great Lakes
territory. What I meant is it's precisely
ensconced by colonizer named lakes Edward,
George, and Albert while Malawi, TaNzania,
Victoria, and Turkana (not to mention other
little known lakes) aren't in the immediate
vicinity.

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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:

Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

It's the same with Egypt! The vast majority of Egyptians today since Islamic times live in the Delta in contrast to pharaonic times when the majority lived in the valley. I don't disagree with you that stereotypical "Mediterraneans" might indeed outnumber the black ones, but at the same time just like Egypt, the number of blacks could also be underestimated.

quote:
While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.
You may be right about that. Remember that the great urban civilization of Libya that truly was indigenous was the Gramantes who lived to the south in the Fezzan region. Mind you that although the coastal areas were colonized by Phoenicians, there were indeed indigenes who lived along the coasts as well and that it is historical fact that Carthage though a Phoenician colony its civilization largely became the result of fusion with indigenous Africans.

quote:
It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.
True. Note also the influences in clothing and hairstyle. Which was why many Carthagean and other Maghrebi rulers despite their ancestry adopted Greco-Roman style dress and hairstyles. This coupled with their sharp features make it easy for Euronuts like lyinass to pass their unpainted portraits as "cockasian".
.
Just to compound the above (and please don't take this the wrong way)

The spectre of Black Africa and implied
black low esteem. The Barca family and
the Moors ARE African heritage. Just one
of many. Certainly no one is jettisoning
all other African regions to grasp that
of the northwest as proxy to west, east,
central, and southern regions.

Save that paradigm for when cosmopolitan
Rome becomes hands-off as regards European
heritage. After all Roman citizens included
North Africans and Levantines, even Arabs
and Indians. Yet supra-Pyreneean Europeans
(White Europeans) are just as partial to Rome
as Mediterranean coastal Olive Europeans are.

"But that's OK for us, the Africans better not try it."



What are these "Black African groups scattered
around the Sahara" as if native Saharan peoples
means exclusive of the black -- and that the black
must be an immigree from the savannah Gnawa
lands or further south?


Seems stubborn old school typologies never die.


What's forgotten? As late as the 6th century
Olive Europeans of Mediterranean coastal Europe
placed far northwest Africans in a schema with
Saharans, Egyptians, Sudanis, and Indians. Why?
Because their colour was of an entirely different
cast than Mediterranean Syrians, Greeks, Italians,
and Spaniards. Heaven forfend we go back to
Aeschylus, so, time to review Manilius (link).

Just a few centuries later alJahiz reported
"they," African blacks in Arabia, say the
Berbers count among the blacks. An opinion
apparently upheld by the Arabized Greek, ibn
Butlan (11th century) who likewise classified
northwest Africans as blacks.

But the spectre of Black African conjures disallowal
against these native blacks of northwest Africa as
African blacks. Why, so that the heavily and recently
admixed coastal Maghrebis can claim that which came
well before the advent of their present physicality
and by proxy therefore a claim by supra Pyrenee
White Europe. even though Maure substituted for
Aethiop in Latin poetry with no loss of meaning
i.e, a black's a black.


Were Aeschylus (a half millenia after the Sea Peoples),
Juvenal (Ceasarian Rome; Moor = spook),
Manilius (last days of Roman Africa)
Procopius (Vandal century),
and ibn Butlan (Islamic era, 3 centuries post-Vandal)
all hallucinating on psychotropics excluding North Africans
from their own white circle (the above underscores are all links follow 'em).


Early Holocene deep "Euro" rooted maternal haplogroups
have nothing to do with the colour of many many living
Maghrebis. Such haplogroups originated from the Middle
East. Their bearers were not pink skinned.

Euro mommies with non-Euro religion fleeing southwest
Europe due to the reconquest and inquisition appears to
be the first major flux of pallour that continues up to
tomorrow Euro mommies met in clubs, university,
vacation, commerce, or some other relation.

The few whites always noted among North Africans
cannot account for the booming white population
found in today's North Africa. Records and photos
of 19th and early 20th century prove even Kabylie
still had the native type of black in common
enough though low frequency.

South of the Sahara in the Sahel and Savannah
we call Maghrebis, and even Berber or "Arab"
Saharans white but we totally separate them
from a category that includes most Spaniards,
Italians, Albanians, Greeks, French, and all
British Islanders, Scandinavians, Central
Europeans, Baltics, and Rus Vik Russians.
They are "white society's" real white people
not including textbook whites (Berbers, Arabs,
Indians, etc.) who are not "white society's"
white people but buffer caucasoids, acting
as proxy whites for White Europeans of low
self-esteem writing history books, genetic
journals and what have you stealing other
people's cultures.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage, in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

What's interesting is that the recent discovery of
derived SLC24A5 having come from the Middle East
during the Neolithic, comes with new conceptual
implications regarding what it means to be "black"
in prehistory. It would seem that Ibero-Maurusians,
even with European mtDNA H1, H3, V and U5 having
become a part of their haplogroup composition at
a later stage, would have been dark skinned. But
this goes both ways and is equally applicable to
Middle Easterns and Europeans. Due to their light
skin alleles having become (almost) fixed, people
for centuries assumed that Europeans, Jews and
(light skinned) Middle Easterners don't have much
African ancestry. What we're now beginning to see
is that the (near) fixation of light skin alleles
(which, in Europe's case, seems to have happened
during the metal ages), obscures any visual cues
of significant African admixture in these populations,
in the eye of the public. The popular lay idea that
skin colour is necessarily directly proportionate
to how much ancestry one has from a light or dark
skinned source has been shown to be a fallacy:

quote:
The overall contributions from Asia and Africa were estimated to be around two-thirds and one-third, respectively
--Cavalli-Sforza

BTW, I did not introduce that Kefi 2005 image to
this forum.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:

Like I said most of these "Eurasians" mtDNA prior to the neolithic are no longer Eurasian and by the time of the Moors/Berbers they would have already mutated into African. Specifically U6.

You have to understand that "Eurasian" and "African" are purely geographic terms and don't say much about the actual populations themselves let alone their relation to one another.

Keep in mind that many of those clades called "Eurasian" are said to originate in Southwest Asia i.e. Arabia and Levant which are right next door to Africa.

 -

Because the region is in such close proximity to Africa sharing the same geologic features and climate, the OOA populations who dwelt in this region were not much different from their brethren who stayed in Africa next door.

And you yourself have admitted that the region to be an extension of Africa if you recall my thread here

Therefore whatever clades arose in these OOA people as "Eurasian" clades don't make much difference if they were reintroduced back into the continent.

This is why Keita said: The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.

 -

^ The debate about which clades are 'Eurasian' or African is in regards to M and N and some of their subclades. There is evidence to suggest M1 and N1 could have originated in Africa. But in regards to N subclades, and in particular R there seems to evidence of back-and-forth migration between Arabia ('Eurasia') and northeast Africa.

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typeZeiss
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He is a former US government official who has spent a considerable amount of time in Libya also stating it is 50% black

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRZwR_ZvqRc

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Of course you are right.


For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Of course you are right.


For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.

*chuckle*

I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Of course you are right.


For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.

*chuckle*

I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?

Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.

I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Of course you are right.


For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.

*chuckle*

I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?

Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.

I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.

Again, so where are you from?
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Of course you are right.


For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.

*chuckle*

I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?

Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.

I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.

Again, so where are you from?
Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA. That was an easy one.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Of course you are right.


For the record, Djehuti , Tukuler and typeZeiss while having the right to believe foolish things if they want are not black Africans. They are fake. Their point of view is not the point of view of most Maghrebian people either as they don't consider themselves black Africans for the most part. We can assume, as any people, they are very proud of their heritage (from the Middle East, Europe and Africa). I wish people wouldn't feel like they have to fake their way into those type of discussions.

*chuckle*

I am from Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA, where are you from?

Don't tell me you didn't get from my post that I consider your blabbering on this forum untrustworthy. Fake means liars.

I just hope people reading this forum keep they eyes open for those type of things.

Again, so where are you from?
Wanjama in Sierra Leone in West AFRICA. That was an easy one.
Yeah, that's what I thought. See, you run your mouth, but when you are called on your silly statements, and asked to provide evidence, or validation for your comments, you retort with absurdity. So, so far, we have established that comments like "they are not African", and the speaking in generalities about people from the Maghrib, whom you are not familiar with, outside of your little Google searches, is really just rubbish, as you clearly don't know what you are talking about.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^^thx for that run of mouth

Read again this more sober analysis of the situation. The thing that really bothers you:

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Be yourself typezeiss. You will feel good about it.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
^^^thx for that run of mouth

Read again this more sober analysis of the situation. The thing that really bothers you:

quote:
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
Excuse me, but doesn't the majority of the Maghrebi population live alongside the Mediterranean coast? Of course there are Black African groups scattered around the Sahara (albeit most are probably mixed with Arabs and northern Berbers by now), but the phenotypically "Mediterranean" people might outnumber these simply by virtue of occupying the most habitable space.

While I can understand why Black African people might want Hannibal Barca and the Moors as part of their collective heritage , in truth coastal Northwest Africa isn't the best place to look if you're interested in indigenous African urban cultures (or "civilizations"). Carthage started out as a Phoenician colony and the Moors were champions of Arabian Islamic culture more than anything else. Before these strong Eurasian influences, I'm not aware of any urban cultures or monumental architecture in Mediterranean North Africa. If anything, the sub-Saharan peoples have a better track record of indigenous urban developments than the Berbers.

It's primarily due to colonization and influences from Punic, Greco-Roman, and Arab cultures that coastal Northwest Africa has any urban heritage at all.

Be yourself typezeiss. You will feel good about it.
oh [Smile]
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

With Son of Ra's permission to carry on with this off topic:

DJ - what AE legends claim a west origin?
I only know of the Shemsu Hor legend/myth
which posits a south origin.

Mind you this has nothing to do with what
archaeology and genetics can tell us about
"Saharans" "migrating" east to the Nile in
Sudan and then moving north into Egypt nor
the folk who always resided in the Lower
Nile nor the Saharans who moved into delta.
Perhaps all these folk except the earliest
holocene Egyptians and the Deltas all come
out of the Khartoum culture.

So just focus on the mythological and legendary.


Co/t King - Well it seems obvious, at least to
me that a mountain range is not a lake. In this
case the range is situated within the Great Lakes
region.

 -

I trust this map precisely locates the
Ruwenzoris, the Mountains of the Moon,
for you. It is definitely in Great Lakes
territory. What I meant is it's precisely
ensconced by colonizer named lakes Edward,
George, and Albert while Malawi, TaNzania,
Victoria, and Turkana (not to mention other
little known lakes) aren't in the immediate
vicinity.

It's true that the story of the Shemsu Hur is the most well known ancestry legend of the Egyptians no doubt because the legend was promulgated in the Thebald by the dominant royal cult of Heru (Horus), but I have read of other origin legends specifically the legend of shemsu Ash which interestingly enough was local to Delta Egyptians as well as oasis dwellers, though his cult was said to have reached as far south as Nubt. This plus the fact that the Egyptians built their tombs and shrines to their dead ancestors on the western side of the Nile all indicate western origins for [some] of the Egyptians as well.
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the lioness,
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what you should have said in 2011 was that Saif Gaddafi said that Libya was half black

But instead you left out his name and said that "Libya is 50% black" making it sound as if that was hard statistical data


Perhaps the largest group of indigenous black African inclusive of parts of Libya are the Tubu ( aka Toubou).They live mainly in northern Chad, but also in southern Libya, northeastern Niger and northwestern Sudan and are roughly estimated to be 350,000
There are also the Toureg estimated to be 10,000 - 17,000 and it is hard to said what portion of them is "black".
The idea that Libya is 50% indigenous black is ridiculous. All one needs to do is look at the ethnic groups and they are under half a million in an overall population of 6.5 million

______________________________________

http://www.modernghana.com/news/318974/1/black-africans-in-libya-cry-out-for-help.html

modern ghana news

Out of a population of about seven million people in Libya, about one million are believed to be from sub-Saharan African countries. There are no concrete figures. Reports claimed that about three quarters of these Africans are sort of on a waiting list to try by any means to cross to Europe.

^^^ So most blacks in the country are migrant workers. If you add this to the indigenous and the descendants of Ottoman slaves who are earlier Sudanese or other SSA you get a figure well under 50%
Must we not question this just because we like the sound of it ?


My guess is that Saif Gaddafi was greatly exaggerating the size of the black population in Libya for politcial reasons in an interview. The Gaddafis are masters of rhetoric and under duress from being overthrown by the rebels/NATO
So Libya was 50% black all these deacdes and now only when Gaddafi is overthrown does this "fact" come out ??

_________________________________________


http://www.minorityrights.org/4171/libya/libya-overview.html


Main minority groups: Berber (Amazigh) est. 236,000 to 590,000 (4-10%), Tuareg est. 17,000 (0.3%), foreigners, 600,000 documented (10%) and 1.1-1.2 million undocumented (18-20%)

[Note: Reliable statistics for Libya are unavailable. Estimates for the numbers of Berber speakers vary between four and ten per cent. The number of Tuareg is from the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights in 2009. The numbers for foreigners are Libyan government figures cited by Human Rights Watch (HWR) in 2006.]

Demographic data for Libya is scarce, but around 90 per cent of the population belongs to the Arabic-speaking majority of mixed Arab–Berber ancestry. The Sunni branch of Islam is the official and nationally dominant political, cultural and legal force. Berbers, who retain the Berber language and customs, are the largest non-Arab minority. Libyan Berbers call themselves Amazigh (plural: Imazighen) and are one of the indigenous populations of North Africa. They are made of up of different ethnic groups, including nomadic Tuareg.
Other minorities include the Arabic-speakers of West African ancestry, who inhabit the southern oases, and the Berber-related Tuareg and Tebu (Toubou), who live in the south of the country.


- See more at: http://www.minorityrights.org/4171/libya/libya-overview.html#sthash.9f473PQT.dpuf


_____________________________

http://lib.ohchr.org/HRBodies/UPR/Documents/Session9/LY/A_HRC_WG.6_9_LBY_3_Libya.pdf

Summary prepared by the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in accordance with paragraph 15 (c) of the annex to Human rights Council resolution 5/1: Libyan Arab Jamahiriya

 -

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mena7
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For me the North African people are a fix mulato people. Black Africans and white central Asians met in North Africa during the middle age. during the classical era Black Africans living in North Africa and South Europe met with the white central Asian in North Europe. North Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Morroco are mulato. South Egypt, Libya, Algeria and morocco are mostly black.

--------------------
mena

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Ish Gebor
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Berbers of Libya.

Ghadamès


 -


 -


 -


Unesco


Old Town of Ghadamès (UNESCO/NHK)


https://youtube.com/watch?v=LCVldQzjyRY


quote:
Long Description


Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC.


Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions.


The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls.


The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men.


Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.

Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/362/
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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Berbers of Libya.

Ghadamès


 -


 -


 -


Unesco


Old Town of Ghadamès (UNESCO/NHK)


https://youtube.com/watch?v=LCVldQzjyRY


quote:
Long Description
Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC.
Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions.
The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls.
The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men.
Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.

Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/362/
Man TP, this post inspired me to post about what happened in Turkey...To think people can't feel for the next man...Be they musilm or not is sad but Your post made me get that fire I needed to post it. Interesting post.

Peace

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Ish Gebor
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It's being said that the Sokna people (Berber) are exin

Not a valid archeology or anthropology website. Nevertheless, lets review what they say:


quote:
Sokna Castle, surrounded by walls, is made up of two and three-story buildings, each arranged around a well in a wide courtyard: in the past, the courtyard was used as a safe shelter for soldiers and animals. Thanks to its precious reserves of high quality water, Sokna was for a long time the political capital of the area.

The Caimacan, the Ottoman Grand Vizier's Lieutenant, ruled over the entire Al Jufrah region. His capital was in the Sokna fortress throughout the three centuries of Turkish rule: from the early 17th century till 1929, the year when Italy consolidated its occupation. At the foot of the hills on which the castle is built, lies the area where a daily date market is still held today. Sokna, on the route leading to the greater Sahara desert, was visited by many European explorers in the 19th century, as they set off on their journeys into the desert. References to Al Jufrah can be found in many diaries and travel notes by these geographers, although they may not all have been fully aware of how useful their accounts would be for those who planned the political and military colonial adventures that followed.

http://www.libyandates.com/english/oases_sokna_al_jufrah_libya.html


Here is the Appleton museum of art:

(Portrait of Nessim-Bey, The Asian Campaign)

Antoine-Jean-Etienne Faivre
French, 1830-1905
Oil on canvas
Gift of Arthur I. Appleton


 -



quote:
Faivre was a skilled and highly respected portrait artist and his works were often displayed in Paris and London. This portrait of Nessim-Bey, in its original frame, was exhibited at the Paris Salon in 1855. Nessim-Bey obtained increased ranks (Bimbashi then Caimacan) of the Bashi Bazouks of the Turkish Army. Bashi-bazouks (in Turkish başıbozuk, meaning "one with an unsound mind") were irregular, mounted mercenaries in the Ottoman army during the nineteenth century, infamous for their plundering proclivities.

Charles Carroll Tevis (also known as Washington Carroll Tevis) was a soldier of fortune, fighting for hire in France, Egypt, and Turkey. A graduate of West Point in 1849, he resigned from the U.S. Army in 1850 to join the Turkish army under the name of Nessim-Bey. Following his adventures in Turkey he went to Paris, then returned to the U.S. during the Civil War (July 1863 as Lieutenant-Colonel; Colonel Dec.1863) where he became a Brevet Brigadier General of volunteers for war service (March 1865) for gallant and meritorious services during the war. He was discharged in July of 1864.

http://www.appletonmuseum.org/artifacts/g12467.html
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Ish Gebor
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Other subgroups Zuwara AMAZIGH and Gharyan AMAZIGH




And ironically the majority of the population is described as Arab-Berber? According to this map.

What could this, or rather, what does this imply?


 -

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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Zuwara Amazigh

Is nessim Bey a Berber?

EDIT: Credit I see now what you are showing brother.

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Ish Gebor
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HISTORY OF THE WADDAN OASIS


quote:


Waddan Castle, surrounded by its massive and irregular enclosure walls, with a mosque at its feet, was founded in the 7th century by Arab conquerors who had come from the east to convert the Maghreb populations to Islam. And Waddan did indeed become one of the main centres for the spread of Islam.

The citadel of Waddan also included dwellings for the population within its walls. An impressive 35 kilometre-long underground canal provided the fortress with water directly from a spring in the El-Bhallil mountains. It was the symbol of the rulers' cleverness and cunning, for it served both to provide water and as a defence against enemies. Waddan remained the capital of Arab Al Jufrah until the Ottoman rulers transferred their centre of power to Sokna.

http://www.libyandates.com/english/oases_waddan_al_jufrah_libya.html
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Ish Gebor
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HISTORY OF THE HUN OASIS

quote:


Hun has a history of several different settlements, each being built to replace an earlier village swallowed up by the desert. Which explains why it is called the “migrating town”. Although we have no information on the exact period when Izkan (also known as the “first Hun”) was founded, we do know that the settlement disappeared five centuries ago, perhaps after an earthquake, a flood or a plague, but definitely as the consequence of a sudden and unexpected scourge.


The “second Hun” was built under Turkish rule and flourished for three and a half centuries, when it was eventually abandoned due to the sand storms that inexorably eroded the walls of the buildings. In the mid-19th century the inhabitants submitted a request to the Ottoman rulers, asking for permission to build a new town. This was to be the “third Hun”, a quadrangular, typically Arab structure that replaced the structure of the earlier Berber-style concentric settlements (like Waddan, Sokna and Zellah).


In the 1970s the “third Hun” was itself abandoned, and left to fall into ruins, as the inhabitants opted for dwellings with more modern comforts (such as bathrooms inside the buildings). Today the “old town” still provides a highly evocative backdrop for exhibitions of local craftsmanship. The area where the “second Hun” stood is today a favourite place for picnics in the dunes, offering as it does a splendid view of the Marabout (a shrine and place of worship that has developed around the tomb of a holy man) and spectacular sunsets.

http://www.libyandates.com/english/oases_hun_al_jufrah_libya.html
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Ish Gebor
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Zuwara Amazigh

Is nessim Bey a Berber?

EDIT: Credit I see now what you are showing brother.

That is what I am wondering about.

I was still gathering info, but you moved on quick. See quite a few things have to be sorted out here on the history of Libya and her people.


quote:
Resigned, May 12, 1850.

After his resignation he entered the Turkish Army as Bim-bachi (Commandant or Major), Feb. 4, 1854, and Caimacan (Lieut.‑Colonel), June 19, 1854, under the name of Nessim Bey. Resided in Paris, France, 1854‑61.


Served during the Rebellion of the Seceding States, 1862‑64: in organizing Regiment, Aug. to Dec., 1862; in garrison at Gloucester Point,

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/America/United_States/Army/USMA/Cullums_Register/1430*.html


BBC news coverage:
quote:
Berbers, or Amazigh, make up 5-10% of Libya's six million population


 -



Members of Libya's minority Berber, or Amazigh, community have stormed the parliament building in Tripoli.


A spokesman for the General National Congress (GNC) said windows were smashed, furniture destroyed and documents belonging to deputies stolen.

There were no reports of any injuries after the incident, which happened during a break in a regular session.

The Amazigh were demanding that the future constitution recognise their language, ethnicity and culture.

Though they make up just 5-10% of Libya's six million population, Amazigh predate the Arab settlers who brought Islam with them from the east.

They suffered decades of repression and discrimination during the rule of Muammar Gaddafi, who was overthrown during an uprising in 2011.

Gaddafi saw Amazigh as a threat to his view of Libya as a homogenous Arab society. The Amazigh language and script Tamazight, which is distinct from Arabic, were officially banned and could not be taught in schools. Giving children Amazigh names was forbidden.

Amazigh fighters played an important role in the armed rebellion against the Gaddafi regime. One of the main fronts was in the Nafusa Mountains, where the population is predominantly Amazigh.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-23690797

Unfortunately the BBC did not say a bleep about Ottoman descendants in Libya. At least not in this article. [Mad]

So who are those other people, who make up the remaining 95-90%? [Eek!]


Especially when they do these DNA studies on the present population, I'm wonder? [Confused]

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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Zuwara Amazigh

Is nessim Bey a Berber?

EDIT: Credit I see now what you are showing brother.

That is what I am wondering about.

I was still gathering info, but you moved on quick. See quite a few things have to be sorted out here on the history of Libya and her people.


quote:
Resigned, May 12, 1850.

After his resignation he entered the Turkish Army as Bim-bachi (Commandant or Major), Feb. 4, 1854, and Caimacan (Lieut.‑Colonel), June 19, 1854, under the name of Nessim Bey. Resided in Paris, France, 1854‑61.


Served during the Rebellion of the Seceding States, 1862‑64: in organizing Regiment, Aug. to Dec., 1862; in garrison at Gloucester Point,

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/America/United_States/Army/USMA/Cullums_Register/1430*.html


BBC news coverage:
quote:
Berbers, or Amazigh, make up 5-10% of Libya's six million population


 -



Members of Libya's minority Berber, or Amazigh, community have stormed the parliament building in Tripoli.


A spokesman for the General National Congress (GNC) said windows were smashed, furniture destroyed and documents belonging to deputies stolen.

There were no reports of any injuries after the incident, which happened during a break in a regular session.

The Amazigh were demanding that the future constitution recognise their language, ethnicity and culture.

Though they make up just 5-10% of Libya's six million population, Amazigh predate the Arab settlers who brought Islam with them from the east.

They suffered decades of repression and discrimination during the rule of Muammar Gaddafi, who was overthrown during an uprising in 2011.

Gaddafi saw Amazigh as a threat to his view of Libya as a homogenous Arab society. The Amazigh language and script Tamazight, which is distinct from Arabic, were officially banned and could not be taught in schools. Giving children Amazigh names was forbidden.

Amazigh fighters played an important role in the armed rebellion against the Gaddafi regime. One of the main fronts was in the Nafusa Mountains, where the population is predominantly Amazigh.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-23690797


So who are those other people, who make up the remaining 95-90%? [Eek!]


Especially when the do these DNA studies on the present population. [Confused]

Yeah Yo...It seems tings are FISHY in Libyan land and to unravel Libya will lead us to better understand NA.

Keep posting whatever you find Bro. Informative and Learning produces Knowledge. Hopefully people see the Turkish influence(wink wink) that is a constant in these articles.

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