posted
So i've been reading The Horizon History of Africa, written in 1971, it's a little old and some of the information is incorrect/outdated, i.e. "arab" trading outposts along the east african coast and even somalis are contrarily referred to as arabs, berbers, moors,etc... But, on a page referring to Sofala, I found an interesting description of the gold and iron-working center. It's somewhat accurate anyway, as it does say that somali sailors founded the city before the king of kilwa invaded the city and took over the lucrative gold trade. But at the same time it says that the "zanj" of the east coast have no ships to sail in and do not travel, which is clearly false.
Passage referring to the towers in question:
page 145 "De Barros spoke of a tower at Sofala over twelve stories high, as well as similar erections of stone, all of which the Zanj call zimbabwe(literally stone house) in referring to the official residences of their leaders"
Interesting, were the inhabitants of sofala the same people who built great zimbabwe? The shona people?
Posts: 74 | From: Kanata | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
Interesting, I never heard of “zimbabwe” used for Sofala or other Swahili.
The Shona and the related people who founded Great Zimbabwe lived inland and were not seafaring. But they and the Swahili were definitely in contact for trade, for products like gold from Zimbabwe/inner Africa, and the Swahili exporting to them items from the Red Sea trade. Example: a coin of a Kilwa ruler was found in Zimbabwe.
And being that they lived in the same region, there probably were some cultural/ethnic links as well. That could explain the use of the term “zimbabwe”. Being that they are both Bantu peoples, speaking Bantu languages maybe they had similar words and linguistic similarities. I’m not sure how close their languages are.
Either that or the De Barros could have been mistaken, which did happen sometimes with explorers in lands they didn’t know.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
Also, the word "Zanj" was used for basically all black African peoples that Arabs encountered on the East coast (excluding northerners like Somali who were called "berbers"), including the Swahili and other Africans living further inland or from other areas who weren't seafaring. So possibly the Zanj being described as having no ships is accurate, if the description was for non-Swahili.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
True, even Ibn battuta, a berber himself described Somalis as "dark-skinned berbers", he may have drawn this connection from the city of Berbera or the traditional name of the region, also called berbera. Somalis are cushites, so I'm not sure where the confusion come from, even though genetic links probably exist between these two groups.
As for the swahili, they ventured further into the interior of Africa than previously believed. I read about the kongo kingdom being harassed by swahili slavers from the east as early as the 15th century.
Posts: 74 | From: Kanata | Registered: Oct 2013
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quote:Originally posted by PreColonialAfrica13: So i've been reading The Horizon History of Africa, written in 1971, it's a little old and some of the information is incorrect/outdated, i.e. "arab" trading outposts along the east african coast and even somalis are contrarily referred to as arabs, berbers, moors,etc... But, on a page referring to Sofala, I found an interesting description of the gold and iron-working center. It's somewhat accurate anyway, as it does say that somali sailors founded the city before the king of kilwa invaded the city and took over the lucrative gold trade. But at the same time it says that the "zanj" of the east coast have no ships to sail in and do not travel, which is clearly false.
Passage referring to the towers in question:
page 145 "De Barros spoke of a tower at Sofala over twelve stories high, as well as similar erections of stone, all of which the Zanj call zimbabwe(literally stone house) in referring to the official residences of their leaders"
Interesting, were the inhabitants of sofala the same people who built great zimbabwe? The shona people?
I am not too sure. Like bling said I think all East Africans of the coast were called Zanj.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
I forgot which one of my books it was sourced in but here is a wiki link if I remember whose work/book I found it in I'll pass it on to you.
quote: Formally, Sofala continued to belong to the Kingdom of Monomatapa, the Swahili community paying tribute for permission to reside and trade there. The Sultan of Kilwa only had jurisdiction on the Swahili residents, and his governor was more akin to a consul than a ruler. The city retained a great degree of autonomy, and could be quite prickly should the Sultan of Kilwa try to interfere in their affairs. Sofala was easily the most dominant coastal city south of Kilwa itself.
posted
If I am reading your source correctly. It states Sofala was founded by Somali merchants first(but it was just small trading post), then s Swahili King purchased it, but later it became under the control of the Monomatapa kingdom(Great Zimbabwe).
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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posted
That's about sums it up,very complex relations gad I wished I remembered what book I found it in.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by PreColonialAfrica13: True, even Ibn battuta, a berber himself described Somalis as "dark-skinned berbers", he may have drawn this connection from the city of Berbera or the traditional name of the region, also called berbera. Somalis are cushites, so I'm not sure where the confusion come from, even though genetic links probably exist between these two groups.
As for the swahili, they ventured further into the interior of Africa than previously believed. I read about the kongo kingdom being harassed by swahili slavers from the east as early as the 15th century.
Yeah I was always curious about the word "berber" being used for Somali. I guess it was a generic word for northern Africans, and since some Somali look different than Africans further south, they applied the term to them too. And maybe they recognized the Somali speak a fellow Afro-Asiatic language so they just lumped them all together. Just a guess...
And that's cool, I didn't know the Swahili ventured that far so early. I thought they launched those slave raids later around the 19th century with traders like Tippu Tip.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
I never heard that Great Zimbabwe, or rather the Mwene Mutapa empire (which came after Great Zimbabwe) controlled Sofala. It would be good to get a primary source with this info.
I looked around in the 5 books I have on Swahili history, and the UNESCO and Cambridge series on African history, and find no mention that Sofala was ruled by Mwene Mutapa. So far all I’m seeing about this is on the internet.
From all that I’ve read, Sofala acted as the primary “entrepot” (almost all books specifically use that word) for trade between the Swahili coast and the Zimbabwe interior. Sofala imported and exported products there, but if it was ruled by anyone, my sources say that it was the Kilwa sultan who had political power over it.
The Mwene Mutapa Empire had some coastal areas under its domain, but I don’t see it stated that it had any power over Sofala, just they were close trading partners.
quote: “The Swahili traders established several bazaars in the Mutapa empire. It is difficult to say exactly when they did so but one Portuguese adventurer found them in existence when he travelled inland from Sofala in 1514- 15. We can, however, safely assume that the first bazaars in Sofala and its immediate neighbourhood were established during the tenth century when the Arab—Swahili traders, who depended on African peasants for their food supplies, started trading with African peasants in the Mutapa empire.” (UNESCO General History of Africa Vol.5, p.675)
Here’s something else I found about the link between Zanj, Swahili and Zimbabwe:
quote: “The third period of Zimbabwe culture, practised from the eleventh century onwards, must certainly reflect a large development in political centralization and the emergence of a commercial empire based on the export of gold and ivory.... If the well-known reference of al-Mas'udi to 'the land of Sofala',1 where the supreme King of the Zanj had his capital, does indeed refer to the Rhodesian plateau, as would seem likely, then the beginnings of the political development must have been evident by the early tenth century, during the archaeological period of Zimbabwe II.” (Cambridge History of Africa, Vol2. p.392)
The “Rhodesian plateau” refers to the Zimbabwe plateau, meaning the region of Great Zimbabwe and later the Mwene Mutapa Empire. Also note, that some medieval travelers used the term Sofala for all or most of the Mozambique coast. Since Mwene Mutapa controlled coastal settlements on the east coast (though I’ve yet to find evidence that they controlled Swahili territory), it is a bit confusing to know for sure if “Sofala” meant at times the Swahili port or an ambiguous coastal region separate from the Swahili.
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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I believe it was you or someone else that stated that the kings or leaders of Great Zimbabwe were having dinner with Chinese nobles in China or something like that. Basically people from great Zimbabwe in China. I apologize if I put words in your mouth. If this is true, this is interesting.
Anyways I'll try and look for that thread where I read.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Bilal Dogon -aka blingdogg: Interesting, I never heard of “zimbabwe” used for Sofala or other Swahili.
The Shona and the related people who founded Great Zimbabwe lived inland and were not seafaring. But they and the Swahili were definitely in contact for trade, for products like gold from Zimbabwe/inner Africa, and the Swahili exporting to them items from the Red Sea trade. Example: a coin of a Kilwa ruler was found in Zimbabwe.
And being that they lived in the same region, there probably were some cultural/ethnic links as well. That could explain the use of the term “zimbabwe”. Being that they are both Bantu peoples, speaking Bantu languages maybe they had similar words and linguistic similarities. I’m not sure how close their languages are.
Either that or the De Barros could have been mistaken, which did happen sometimes with explorers in lands they didn’t know.
The empire which founded greater Zimbabwe wasn't just inland. The extended to the coast. That empire was HUGE. There is a documentary on it, if I find it I will post it.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
My mistake. What I mean is that the people (Shona-related) themselves were not a ship-building people.
The Great Zimbabwe empire held territories on the east coast, but as far as I know the people living in those places weren't the same Shona-group people, but people governed by Zimbabwe rulers. And they weren't seafarers to the extent or scale as Swahili.
I thought trade items like those from China and Mid-East found in Zimbabwe were obtained via Swahili trade.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I read.
If you can find the documentary I'd appreciate it; I'm always curious about Great Zimbabwe and wish more research was done on it.
By any chance is the documentary from the BBC series "Lost Kingdoms of Africa" with Dr. Gus Casely-Hayford?
Posts: 100 | From: Canada | Registered: Oct 2013
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I believe it was you or someone else that stated that the kings or leaders of Great Zimbabwe were having dinner with Chinese nobles in China or something like that. Basically people from great Zimbabwe in China. I apologize if I put words in your mouth. If this is true, this is interesting.
Anyways I'll try and look for that thread where I read.
Not the Zimbabweans but the Swahili the Zimbabweans certainly dined off Chinese porcelain but I have no source that they visited China although the Swahili certainly did. African/Swahili merchant or Ambassador in ancient Ming dynasty China
The kind of vessels they traveled in.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
What I really don't understand is why Sofala is depicted by the portuguese as a mere portuguese fort surrounded by huts. Where are the stone buildings and tower de barros described? Where are the ships?
Also, I tried posting some pictures but the html tag is disabled? whaa?
message i got: " FYI Sorry, we do not permit the following HTML tag or attribute: Parenthesis in HTML tag "
Posts: 74 | From: Kanata | Registered: Oct 2013
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