quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Foolish fool ass fraud pretending not to see the questions in my posts of yesterday.
Instead of typing that you could have reposted the question
The only question I see is
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Tell me what difference it makes to post that some professional also made the same simple deduction?
What will it change? Anything?
quote:Originally posted by lioness:
Scholarship is built on other scholarship as each approaches a closer point to the event,
I already answered it. Why do people ever list references? Must we waste time on rhetorical questions?
I can tell from your insults your are in an emotional state right now. You are upset somebody is debating your claims. You are used to inserting arcane information so people stop analyzing and think well. he knows all this deep terminology he must be right I won't ask anymore questions. That is your normal tactic but it doesn't work on me.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Folks are laughing @ u from here to Andromeda you Kosmic Kitty Klown [QUOTE]
this "cute" remark falls under the category of trolling
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler:
Bottomline: de Viladestes 1413 map depicts a veiled black skinned camel rider clearly labeled Rex Bubeder.
This no doubt is abu Bakr, Lemtuna amir of al~Murabitun Sanhadja confederacy Kel Tagelmoust.
Over and over again non sequitur
A) Bottomline: de Viladestes 1413 map depicts a veiled black skinned camel rider clearly labeled Rex Bubeder.
does not equal
B) This no doubt is abu Bakr, Lemtuna amir of al~Murabitun Sanhadja confederacy Kel Tagelmoust.
__________________________________
EVERYBODY
Tukuler's theory is
bubeder = Bakr
____________________________
that has no linguistic basis Without that all there is a camel rider who might be a berber
If bubeder = Bakr then scholars would have said it
But they don't because it's bull
Try to find any latin dictionary or any reference supporting that
And anyone who thinks that bubeder = bubacar find a reference that gives the definition or etymology of bubacar
This is the situation. Throwing in "Lemtuna""amir""al~Murabitun" is impressive lingo to distract from a weak argument
I can't get into immature pseudo cute insults back and forth, that is trolling behavior designed to elicit emotional response to cover weakness I admit to error others have too much pride
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: This no doubt
That is why you are not a professional historian. You try to present theory as fact.
Tukuler's usual tactic is to throw some term at you you never heard of and cross his fingers you will give up.
homey don't play that
I went and checked the word and found the emperor has no clothes. That house of cards has been standing there for ten years but I found it
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Again
what diff will it make if some professional makes the same deduction I made?
will it change anything?
Will you finally admit you're effed in the head over Bubeder for abu Bakr only if Simon Sez?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
More clown antics even admitting Homey D Clown
Folks are laughing @ u from here to Andromeda you Kosmic Kitty Klown
Bottomline: de Viladestes 1413 map depicts a veiled black skinned camel rider clearly labeled Rex Bubeder.
This no doubt is abu Bakr, Lemtuna amir of al~Murabitun Sanhadja confederacy Kel Tagelmoust.
From the Cresques who taught de Viladestes "All this region is occupied by people who veil their mouths; one only sees their eyes. They live in tents and have caravans of camels. There are also beasts called Lemp from the skins of which they make fine shields."
Next to de Viladestes black skinned veiled camel rider.
P2 * Lemtuna from lemp * Kel Tagelmoust = People of the Veil
Both in the Cresques text next to the unnamed pink skinned veiled camel rider.
P1 + P2 = C
C *Simple deduction.
This no doubt is abu Bakr, Lemtuna amir of al~Murabitun Sanhadja confederacy Kel Tagelmoust.
(1)Amir of (2)al~Murabitun (3)Sanhadja (4)confederacy written to refute the clowny conception by Kosmic Kitty Klown that veiled black camel rider is (1)Mansa of the (2)Mali (3)Mandingo (4)empire
Upholding African studies through logic and protecting the innocent from Snakey's venom. Homey D Clown can criticize me but lacks the background in African studies and related disciplines to construct a logical analysis. The joker can only mine data and mindlessly post it without even a semblance of independent thought. ES is not primary schooling Duncey!
N E X T ! ! !Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
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Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
@Tukuker
Okay buddy.
Is if Africans like the people of Mali were to reach the Americas. Would trade have been established? Because there are sources that state New World goods being found in African kingdoms. Also what is your view on the Hull Bay skeletons and is there any additional sources on physical remains of 'Negroid' people being found in the Americas?
.
I've asked about this a couple of times too.
We read about private citizens sailing off into the Atlantic loaded with trade goods. If they returned empty handed was what they took payment for a luxury Caribbean vacation women, rum, cigars & entertainment included?
Would a successful colony on Abubakari II's scale ship America's products, produce, and natural resources to Mali empire? I'd think so. But it looks like Mali never heard from him again unless they were keeping it a trade secret.
It seems as if either one of the world's best kept secrets or the Mali expedition colony was low key or Abubakari may've intended to maybe leave Mali and all it meant to him for good.
Please share. I've waited years for evidence of Abubakari establishing transoceanic trade not just the private non-governmental type observed by the Euro explorers.
The Smithstonian put a gag order on vanSertima after he revealed the institution negated its valid C14 date of 1250 for the two Africans, who's incisor teeth were filed, buried at Hull Bay. Because of something so simple as an iron nail TSI concluded the date must be wrong. As if West Africans 750 years ago couldn't manufacture nails.
I don't know. Sure hope an active poster or knowledgeable lurker has those updates.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Then there's clown map juggling to confuse the unwary whereby
* 1375 Cresques, Abraham * 1389 Cresques, Jafuda * 1413 de Viladestes
get conflated into one &/t same
you're the clown, 1389 Jafuda map never found
what you put up, note white flags source Bridgemart>
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
OK here
"All this region is occupied by people who veil their mouths; one only sees their eyes. They live in tents and have caravans of camels. There are also beasts called Lemp from the skins of which they make fine shields."
hmm a Lemtuna ? [/QB]
Actual map, note black flags > as I had pointed out
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
No what you need is a brain.
Juicy idiot didn't I write years ago that it was lost? Didn't I even link to such a post earlier in this thread?
See, when I'm wrong I'm wrong and have no problem admitting.
The original 1389 was lost. Two contemporaneous copies of it exist "one in the National Library of Madrid and the other in the Maritime Museum of the Royal Shipyards of Barcelona."
You simply can't distinguish the 1375 (Musa in white) from the 1389 (Musa in green). Nor are you capable of the research to uncover stuff like the two 1389 copies and where they are.
Give it up already. Every time you pull this **** with me you always come out on the sticky end. It's a fact, man, a fact
Don't you get tired of me embarrassing you like this time and time after time again?
People want Africana they don't want your roorag.
Be glad someone here paid their dues and willfully shares the knowledge.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
No its not bullshit but yes I made it up via simple logical deduction.
And you keep avoiding what diff it'll make if some professional also equates Bubeder to abu Bakr. Why? Because you don't care for showing clarity you just care to show your ass.
Well, we don't want any of your ass.
Will you admit my deduction is dead on the money were some professional historian or whoever says the camel rider is indeed abu Bakr?
Those of us who've paid our dues can make valid proposals. Data miners can't do anything except parrot with never a new paradigm or original thought or independent take.
DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTION ABOUT BUBEDER AS A VARIANT OF ABU BAKR? IF NOT THEN I"M DONE WITH THIS LYIN'ASS SNAKE UNTIL (S)HE ANSWERS WHAT DIFF IT MAKES IF A PRO SAYS SO.Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: No what you need is a brain.
Juicy idiot didn't I write years ago that it was lost? Didn't I even link to such a post earlier in this thread?
See, when I'm wrong I'm wrong and have no problem admitting.
The original 1389 was lost. Two contemporaneous copies of it exist "one in the National Library of Madrid and the other in the Maritime Museum of the Royal Shipyards of Barcelona."
You simply can't distinguish the 1375 (Musa in white) from the 1389 (Musa in green). Nor are you capable of the research to uncover stuff like the two 1389 copies and where they are.
Give it up already. Every time you pull this **** with me you always come out on the sticky end. It's a fact, man, a fact
Don't you get tired of me embarrassing you like this time and time after time again?
People want Africana they don't want your roorag.
Be glad someone here paid their dues and willfully shares the knowledge.
I posted the 1375 map from the start
you posted a facimile of a 1389 map, said it was the 1375 map and then accused me of guilt for not knowing about the 1389 map
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Distorting lyin'ass snake you can't even quote right. I wrote
Of course I got it right You tried to sneak two suppositions into P1
see this:
P1 * Bubeder = Bubacar = abu Bakr
that's two points, I'm on to your tatcics. You can blame anyone for doing a proper analysis of TWO suppositions in one statement?? You're not getting away with it anymore, your non sequitur promotions. Assumptions are to be dealt with one at a time
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
No its not bullshit but yes I made it up via simple logical deduction.
And you keep avoiding what diff it'll make if some professional also equates Bubeder to abu Bakr. Why? Because you don't care for showing clarity you just care to show your ass.
Well, we don't want any of your ass.
Will you admit my deduction is dead on the money were some professional historian or whoever says the camel rider is indeed abu Bakr?
You are wasting everybody's time.
before your theory is even considered you need to have linguistic sources that define the words you are talking about.
1) show language dictionaries or etymology of
a) Bubacar
b) Bubeder
^^^ at least give the people a definition from a source on bubacar, the people deserve that at the least. It's a Muslim surname
c) why a word with a prominant "k" sound would be corrupted as "d"
d) why, assuming "Bubeder" is "corrupted" that it is more likely "Bakr" than it is "berber"
2) prove that the garb in the modern illustration of Musa Mansa which shows a scarf going across the neck and chin is wrong, that it is something he would not have worn
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Dumbass, Bubeder in Rex Bubeder is not a surname anymore than Charles is a surname in King Charles.
Never tire of embarrassing yourself do you? Quite simply you lack the prerequisites to understand anything at all about any of this.
Nobody but you is questioning Bubeder = Bubacar = abu Bakr
DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTION ABOUT BUBEDER AS A VARIANT OF ABU BAKR? IF NOT THEN I"M DONE WITH THIS LYIN'ASS SNAKE UNTIL (S)HE ANSWERS WHAT DIFF IT MAKES IF A PRO SAYS SO.Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY QUESTION ABOUT BUBEDER AS A VARIANT OF ABU BAKR? CAN'T ANYBODY SUPPORT MY THEORY? IF NOT I'M GOING HOME Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
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Member # 19944
posted
I'm not on the dole I support myself quite handsomely
When asked to produce where Diawara makes either statement Snaky balked. Why? (S)he knew from the start who and how Diawara identified only the enthroned monarch. (S)he knew because (s)he posted the front cover of Diawara's book.
Here's Diawara's book, the full wrapper
[img restored 20221013]
He only IDs the enthroned monarch and names him "l'empereur mandinque Kankou Moussa."
Beware of deliberate liars all up in your history spreading confusion refusing all efforts of correction. If not deliberately lying then too dense to comprehend their own sources.
Diawara nowhere stated the camel rider as Abubakari II nor the enthroned monarch as Abubakari II.
All that was totally fabricated by the Lyin'ass worm who just could not wriggle out of it and even went on changing goalposts and denying (s)he made an assertion only guesswork from the start. Liar!
And this is not the only source (s)he has no idea of what's in it and what it says. That's why (s)he won't answer the relevance question on Bubeder. (S)he's afraid (s)he'll get stuck in her/his own web yet again.
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posted
The difference between Tukeuler and me is I will say stuff like "I'm not sure but" or "seem to indicate"
But he will will state who's who as fact.
And that is wrong
It was a reasonable assumtion that an aothor who wrote a book on Abubakari II and had on the cover of his book an illustration of two figures that one of those figures was Abubakari II. On further inspection this may have not been the case. That being said, it does not mean that Tukulur is anymore right in his wild speculation on who the camel rider in the picture is.
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Tukuler
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Member # 19944
posted
Still no answer to what it makes if some pro made the same deduction, oh. Scaredy Cat Snake.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Well ?
5 days and counting
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
On [de Viladestes'] map there's no question about the personal identity of the veiled black camel rider, a Sanhadja not a Soninke.
The caption at his head clearly reads Rex Bubeder a Latin corruption of Bubacar alluding to Abu Bakr the famed ruler of the al~Murabitun confederation.
Ignoring the geographic specification of the subject and that muLithamun Sanhadja are not Soninke prompted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
... there are many Abu Bakrs in Ilsamic history Abu Bakr, also known as Abubakari I or Manding Bory, was the fifth Mansa (Emperor) of the Mali Empire, reigning from 1275 to 1285.
. 1 - wrong ethnic group and region 2 - correct ethnic group and locale 3 - wrong ethnic group and continent 4 - wrong ethnic group and wrong local terrain 5 - wrong ethnic group and wrong local terrain
After again explaining that the nomadic Sanhadja and sedentary Soninke are not interchangeable and why Bubeder is abu Bakr amir of al~Murabitun
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ this guy's unpublished theory
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Tell me what difference it makes to post that some professional also made the same simple deduction?
What will it change? Anything?
. And I've asked that again and again without yet a response. And I know why. It would make no difference at all since the Lioness does not want to see this veiled black camel rider of the southwest Sahara in southern Mauritania as in fact abu Bakr amir of the southern al~Murabitun faction, the most famous southwestern Saharan of southern Mauritania and thus the "rex" under scrutiny.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
6 days and counting
Tell me what difference it makes to post that some professional also made the same simple deduction?
What will it change? Anything?Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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I have had recent correspondance on a whole list of questions I had pertaining to the camel riding figure here. The person addressed each politely in high detail. From what he said my current opinion is that Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar the Almoravid ruler who had died over 300 years prior to the map maker is nevertheless a good guess as to who that camel rider is, not 100% certain but good. This person, who seemed expert, said that what looks like a "D" could have been an overflow of ink on a "C" and was "Bubecer", that meaning Bakr.
The word "Bubeder" I had noticed, is in many 18th German books, meaning "boy". It appears in them as one word and in other books "Bube der, two words meaning the same thing. "Bube- boy It's an odd coinindence apparently a completely unrelated word.
"Rex Bubeder" had been noted in several crediblie historical books that mention the Viladestes and they don't mention "Bubecer" However for other reasons ther is good possibilty that "Bubecer" was intended and that the figure is intended to be the Almoravid Abu Bakr of the 11th c rather than Malian Abu Bakrs of the 13/14th c. And there are other credible books on the Viladestes map which do speculate Abu Bakr of the 11th c, "Bubecer"
Massufa appears (in Catalan "they are called Mosifes") in the inscription Vildestes writes. The last part Viladestes adds (which is not in Cresques) is that they are called "Mosifes". Mosifes = Massufa, one of the tribes of the Almoravids (the Massufa were the branch of the Almoravids that conquered and ruled Majorca, Viladestes's home, in the 11th-12th C., which might explain why he added that note - Mosifes may have been the local Majorcan name for them)
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Tukuler
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posted
I gave my methodology for deducing identity.
You asked to show any pro saying the veiled black camel rider in de Viladestes represents the al~Murabitun amir abu Bakr a Lemtuna.
So why is it good when it comes from others but my deduction and presentation nonsense?
Why are they acceptable without a scrap of their methodology even presented?
Why is it no longer nonsense?
A game of Simon Sez where it only counts if Simon says so (even though Simon puts up no "proofs")
But it's nonsense when my black ass says it despite presenting backing reasons?
Even some unknown person's word is more valuable, eh?
posted
The answer is that this person answered several questions if not resolved could be problems with theory, questions you diid not have explantions for and had gotten emotional and defensive about This person said that is was possble that figure was Abu Bakr which is reasonable but you were stating it as fact, Had you given references I could have gone to the reference and tried to see if there was more supporting information or not. Using references to support a theory or elements of a theory is a no brainer.
He gave more detaiil than you know about in three long correspondances. As to you being black people have suggetsed you may be pretending
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Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
I have had recent correspondance on a whole list of questions I had pertaining to the camel riding figure here. The person addressed
Just another person presenting an opinion that's all.
quote:each politely in high detail. From what he said my current opinion is that Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar the Almoravid ruler who had died over 300 years prior to the map maker is nevertheless a good guess as to who that camel rider is,
What did Anonymous say that I didn't?
quote: not 100% certain but good. This person, who seemed expert,
What qualifies "seemed expert"?
quote: said that what looks like a "D" could have been an overflow of ink on a "C"
We see this very same D elsewhere on the chart. It is indeed a D. It is not a C nor is there any overflow of ink where Bubeder is written.
quote: and was "Bubecer", that meaning Bakr.
The word "Bubeder" I had noticed, is in many 18th German books, meaning "boy". It appears in them as one word and in other books "Bube der, two words meaning the same thing. "Bube- boy It's an odd coinindence apparently a completely unrelated word.
de Viladestes did not write a Germanic language. He wrote a Romance language that to me looks like maybe Latin mixed in with Catalan since REX is not the Catalan for king.
quote: "Rex Bubeder" had been noted in several crediblie historical books that mention the Viladestes and they don't mention "Bubecer" However for other reasons ther is good possibilty that "Bubecer" was intended and that the figure is intended to be the Almoravid Abu Bakr of the 11th c rather than Malian Abu Bakrs of the 13/14th c.
Hmmm, now of a sudden its credible and reasonable but when I said it it was nonsense to be abu Bakr it was nonsense to not possibly be a Soninke.
quote: And there are other credible books on the Viladestes map which do speculate Abu Bakr of the 11th c, "Bubecer"
Didn't you ask me for professional agreement? Where were these credible books then? I'm not at all surprised to see "credible books" arrive at my same "nonsense" conclusion.
please list them
quote:Massufa appears (in Catalan "they are called Mosifes") in the inscription Vildestes writes. The last part Viladestes adds (which is not in Cresques) is that they are called "Mosifes". Mosifes = Massufa, one of the tribes of the Almoravids (the Massufa were the branch of the Almoravids that conquered and ruled Majorca, Viladestes's home, in the 11th-12th C., which might explain why he added that note - Mosifes may have been the local Majorcan name for them)
The veiled black camel rider Rex Bubeder replaced the veiled white camel rider unnamed by Cresques. The location of both is southern Mauritania in the southwestern Sahara. al~Murabitun had two major branches one southern the other northern. The lemp beast, or lamt, is one proposal offered as basis for the Lemtuna and Lemt tribal nisbes.
I welcome critique of what I write because it can improve my understanding. I don't appreciate baseless potshots that merely ignore and sidestep all of my analysis and synthesis of on the ground facts to arrive at new pardigms or original thought/ideas.
I invite Anonymous here to discuss any points of error.
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Une mention indique sans aucune represenatation iconagraphique correspondant: Rex Bubuder
Rey de organa
Esta continuadament en gera en batala de altres sarayns so es asaber ap aquels de nubia et daltres alarabs, e sapiats que totes estes partides son arenoses ay grans bondancies de datils de les montanies
Une mention indique sans aucune represenatation iconagraphique correspondant: Rex Bubuder
Une mention indique sans aucune representation iconographique correspondant Nous discernons dans ces commentaries differentess conceptions: le musa melli apparait non plus comme le souverain de Milli mais de guineua. S'Agit-il d'une transcription de Ghana ou de Melli mais de gunea Cham apparait Musa Melli n'est plus seulement un soverign musulman mais aussi un decendant de Cham . L'auter de la carte attribue la guinneua aux descendants de Cham et L'Afrique a Affer,Il y a la une contradition due aux pesanteurs que constituaient les traditions geographies et les mythes genealogiques medievaux
2)
Boletín de la Academia Nacional de la Historia 1992, p 341
y a un jefe nómade, sobre un camello, Rex Bubeder. En el planisferio de Cantino, de 1502, vemos en el Africa la Tierra del Rey de Nubia, enemigo de los cristianos en continua lucha con el Preste Juan. El mapamundi de Martellus era muy
3) Nueva Historia Del Descubrimiento de América, 1998 p 439
el de Nubia (Rex ünubia), el Preste Juan (Pcstre Joha), el Rex Musameli, emperador mandinga, dueño del oro del Sudán, y un jefe nómade, sobre un camello, Rex Bubeder. En el planisferio de Cantino.de 1502, vemos en el Africa la Tierra ...
Neben dem „Pestre 1oha" (Priester Johannes) stellt sie „Lo Solda“ (Sultan von Ägypten) dar, außerdem „Rex Organa“ ... mit dem königlichen Titel „Rex Bubeder " benannt wurde, aber ohne die Insignien des Machthabers abgebildet wurde.
______________________________________
___________________________________________ select quotes from correspondance
"The label is "Rex Bubecer". I guess it can look like "Bubeder" to some readers, since the gold paint flowed and closes the C. But it is not a D. The only other clear "D" on the Mecia chart (in "Lo Solda") and it is very clearly pinched with a straight edge on the left and very pronounced serifs, which the alleged D in "Bubeder" clearly doesn't have. It is "Rex Bubecer", the gold ink flowed to close the c, and has been misread." Illuminators don't always correct mistakes - indeed, they rarely do. The amount of typographical errors you'll find in 15th & 16th C. charts is legion. You'll find plenty of whopping writing mistakes, and mistakes to correct mistakes, that linger from chart to chart (e.g. "Judia" shoals rewritten as "India" shoals, or "Diogo Fernandes" as "Domingo Frias", or "Diogo Lopes" as "Dom Galopes"). It's not a big deal.
It doesn't look like the D in "Lo Solda". It looks like a C, which was closed either by leaking or by mistake of the illuminator.
. Viladestes may really have meant to depict some unheard-of "Bubeder", a name not present in any Arab or European sources
That said, the text underneath reinforces it: Mecia de Viladestes writes (to the best of readings, as it is blurry): "Tota aquesta partida, tenen gens que van embocats qe nols veu hom sino los uils e van en tendes, e fan cavalcades am camells e ay moltes besties qui an non çalams de aquel quyr, fan les targes les quals apelen mosifes", which is an almost-direct transcription of the inscription in the 1375 Catalan Atlas, with the slight typographical difference that Mecia writes "çalams" where Cresques writes "lemp" and Mecia adds "mosifes". To translate: "In all these parts, you have people who veil themselves so only their eyes are seen and go in tents, and do cavalcades on camels, and many beasts called çalams (lemp in Cresques), from whose skins they make targets (i.e. bucklers/shields), which are called mosifes". Lemp = lamth/lamt = Saharan oryx. The Almoravid shields were famously made of oryx skin, that were repeatedly commented on by contemporaries; so much that the primary constituent tribe was called the "Lamtuna". (On a side-note, in a famous tale, in the 1080s, when Alfonso VI of Castile was raiding the district of Moorish Seville, and mockingly demanded entrance into the city because "I need to rest, I am tired from so much raiding in the hot sun", the Andalusian governor replied menancingly "Don't fret. I intend to soon provide a shadowy spot for you to rest, under a canopy made from the hide of a lamt" (i.e. he had just invited the Almoravids over from Morocco).
The term "Bubeder" is certainly not "Berber". The latter term existed in the Catalan at the time, and referred to all North African populations, especially the coastal populations of the Mediterranean ("Barberia"). The desert-dwelling pops of the interior were usually distinguished as "Sanhaja" or "Zenaga" or some variant thereof (e.g. the Portuguese chronicles of the 15th C. refer to them consistently only as "Azenegues"). The "King of Barbaria" would lead one to think of the rulers of the coastal states of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, not the interior desert-dwellers (And Viladestes certainly knows how to spell "Berber" - in the inscription southwest of Rex Organa, he gives the fanciful etymology of the term "Africa" - he explains that it is named after "King Afer, son of Abraham" who ruled "all of barberia" ("tota la barberia") from Egypt ("Cairo river") to Morocco ("cape of the Gazzula").
The whole thing is just one calfskin, 85 cm x 115 cm. The font is miniscule, as are the pictures. Each of these kings is about half-a-finger tall. It's amazing that he managed to squeeze in the detail he did.
The 1413 Viladestes map is a very rich and informative map. Indeed, it is the best and most complete document we have of the full state of European knowledge about Africa before the launch of Portuguese naval expeditions down the African coast in the 1440s. However, Europeans had no direct knowledge of the African interior. No European had ever traveled there (or returned to tell about it) until Leo Africanus in the 16th C. All the locations are speculative. Viladestes derived them third hand, from Arab chroniclers (al-Bakri, al-Idrisi, Ibn Abi Zar, Ibn Idhari, Ibn Khaldun, etc.), most of whom, in turn, relied on other travelogues.
For this objective, you only use one illustration. Now, Musa happens to be the best-known Emperor of Mali - indeed, the only Emperor of Mali Europeans of the time heard about. If not for his celebrated trip to Egypt, they likely wouldn't have heard the Musa name, and Viladestes would have drawn him as an anonymous archetype, like the kings of Nubia, Organa et al.
The depicted Abu Bakr can't be the predecessors or successors of Musa. He wouldn't have known them. At any rate, Viladestes isn't trying to draw individuals or dynasties. He's trying to draw locations. And you don't use two figures to show the location of one place. And he would be wrongly located. Our camel-rider is north of Takrur and west of Sudan - that is well outside of the Mali empire. Indeed, he is exactly located, smack-dab, in the homeland of the Lamtuna - the dominions of Abu Bakr ibn Umar.
It doesn't matter that Abu Bakr the man is already dead - and has been dead for centuries. Musa the man is also dead. Prester John never existed as a man. And who knows whether the kings of Nubia, Organa depicted are still alive. He is using legendary names associated with interior kingdoms, names that European might recognize
Why doesn't he use a more recent Lamtuna emir than Abu Bakr? Because he doesn't know any more recent names. The Arab chronicles don't bother with the successors of Abu Bakr. At best, one of them mentions his empire was split between five sons after his death, but that is all. It falls silent thereafter. But the chronicles do dote over the life and deeds of Abu Bakr in very much detail.
(Remember: the Almoravids split their dominions c.1072 between north and south empires. The northern empire, led by cousin Yusuf ibn Tasfhin, covered Morocco and Spain, and that was lost to the Almohads in the mid-12th C. But the southern empire, led by Abu Bakr, was never conquered by anyone we heard of. As far anyone in Europe at the time knew, the southern Almoravid empire of Abu Bakr, the empire centered in the Lamtuna homelands, was still intact and kicking.)
(Side note: it is interesting to note in the 1413 map Abu Bakr is going to a town called "Sudam". There is no town of that name. "Sudan" is the Arabic name of the whole region. Mecia de Viladestes didn't realize that. And as the chroniclers wrote repeatedly how Abu Bakr conquered "Sudan" in the 1080s, Viladestes imagined that was a town he captured, and has him marching on it.)
So all this context - the location of the figure on the map, in Lamtuna territory, above Takrur, marching on "Sudan", the camel, the Sanhaja outfit, the knotted whip, the inscription describing the veil, the lamt shields, the Massufa label - all identify this camel-rider as the emir of the southern Almoravid empire. And Abu Bakr ibn Umar is the only such emir Arab chroniclers mentioned, and the only one Europeans would have heard of. And the label "Rex Bubecar" is just the cherry on top to confirm it.
The knotted whip is also emphatically Almoravid - as noted by Norris (1971), Messier (2010) and others, a central instrument of their strict religious discipline, introduced by the imam Abdallah ibn Yasin.
No other theory works. And no one in your citations has offered any other. You may insist on reading it as "Rex Bubeder", but it makes no sense, it supplies no meaning and goes against the inscription and context. By that token, you might as well insist on reading "Desgrelona" in the east rather than "Pestre Joha". If you ignore the context, you might be satisfied with that. And if you think our camel-riding Almoravid emir isn't drawn precisely enough, I wonder what you would reply to the suggestion that the white Latin bishop was an Ethiopian emperor!
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
You continue to overlook my questions. Until you answer them I will ignore anything you ask me in any ES thread.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I gave my methodology for deducing identity.
You asked to show any pro saying the veiled black camel rider in de Viladestes represents the al~Murabitun amir abu Bakr a Lemtuna.
So why is it good when it comes from others but my deduction and presentation nonsense?
Why are they acceptable without a scrap of their methodology even presented?
Why is it no longer nonsense?
A game of Simon Sez where it only counts if Simon says so (even though Simon puts up no "proofs")
But it's nonsense when my black ass says it despite presenting backing reasons?
Even some unknown person's word is more valuable, eh?
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posted
I'll deal with historical questions not rhetorical personal questions.
I was able to find somebody who didn't take anything personally, who presented their answers as theory they thought best rather than certainty who addressed all my questions at length and did not throw in numerous personal attacks in the process. These needed to be resolved for me to be convinced in addition to basic methodology I can't stand know-it-all snobbery.
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What also seems impossible is answering Tukuler. But I do understand the frustration.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Anonymous asserted the veiled black camel rider is al~Murabitun emir abu Bakr, a Lemtuna. Anon did not waffle with maybes, or possiblies, or alternativelies.
Bad al~Takruri for asserting it. Yay Anonymous for asserting it.
Obvious bias/prejudice at work.
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posted
Europeans learned about America from their travels along the West coast of Africa.Vasco da Gama, is said to have found out information concerning the West Indies from Ahmad b. Majid, of West Africa (Bazan, 1967). .
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence indicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
According to Cadamosto the Mali marines wore white caps on their heads and a white tunic. On the side of the skull-caps worn by the Malian martines, a white wing decoration was emblaxoned, and a feather was stuck in the middle of the skull cap.
On board each naval vessel stood a marine with a round leather shield on the arm and a short sword. Other marines were armed with bows and arrows .
Murphy reported that the Malian military wore a uniform consisting of sandles, loose fitting cotton breeches reaching down to the knees, a sleeveless tunic, and a white headdress of either cotton or leather, decorated with one or more feathers .
The major weapons of the Malian soldier included iron-pointed spears, daggers and short swords, wooden battle-clubs and the bow and arrow .
The Malians left many inscriptions in Brazil and elsewhere after they arrived in the Americas. These inscriptions are of two kinds. One group of inscriptions were meant to warn the Manding expeditionary force not to camp in certain areas.
.
. Inscriptions in this category are found at Piraicaba, Brazil. Another group of inscriptions were left in areas suitable for settlement.
Once a safe place was found for settlement, the Manding colonists built stone cities or mound habitations. One of these lost cities was found in A.D. 1753, by banderistas (bandits). .
. Wilkins, reported that these inscriptions were found in the State of Bahia,Brazil by Padre Tellesde Menezes, in Marajo near the Para-oacu and Una rivers engraved over a mausolea. They tell us that the personage buried in the Tomb was named Pe.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features.
The most startling evidence of Malians in Brazil , is the "Brazil Tablet", discovered by Col. P.H. Fawcett in an unexplored region near the Culuene river. The interesting thing about this Tablet, was the fact it had "African pigment" and features (printed above) .
The personage in this Tablet was an elite of Malian colony in Brazil. Evidence suggesting a Manding origin for the Brazil Tablet are 1) THE CROWN worn by the personage on the tablet; 2) the Manding inscriptions inscribed across the chest and feet of the figure on the Fawcett Tablet; and 3) the evidence of breeches similar to the Manding style military uniform worn by the personage depicted on the Fawcett Tablet.
The decipherment of these inscriptions detail the burial place, and cause of death of a Mansa or Mande King. it appears that the Mansa on the Brazil Tablet" was named Be. It tells us that Be, was buried in a hemisphere tomb (i.e.,mound) .
The Malians in South America also built their homes on top of mounds. There major centers of habitation appear to have been Panama and Venezuela in addition to Brazil. In Brazil there are many megalithic structures that seem to have there prototype in Africa. For example, in Alagoas we find many stone monuments similar to those found in West Africa, such as stone circles formed by rocks placed vertically on the ground.
The habitation mounds in Brazil are called sambuquis. Some of the sambuquis, have radio-carbon dates going back into pre-history, while many of the mounds where artifacts have been found are related to the cultures of Venezuela, and have dates contemporaneous with the Malian voyages.
In conclusion the ancient tombs and Brazil tablet indicate that Malians probably landed in Brazil. This is a significant artifact because the elite on the Brazil Tablet, wears a uniform associated with Malian marines. The discovery of a Brazil tomb dedicated to Pe, may in fact be the tomb of Be, who is depicted on the Brazil Tablet.
References: G. R. Crone, The Voyage of Cadamosto, (London,1937) pp.57-59.
E. Murphy, History of African Civilization, (New York,1972) p.111.
Harold T. Wilkins, Mysteries of Ancient South America, (Secacus, New Jersey:Citadel Press, 1974), pp.40-45; and Branco, p.146.
Winters, C.A. (1977). The influence of the Mnade scripts on American ancient writing systems. Bulletin de l'IFAN, t.39, Ser.B ,Number 2, 405-431.
Winters, C.A.(1979). Manding writing in the New World--Part 1, Journal of African Civilization, 1 (1), 81-97.
books.google.com 1977 - Snippet view - More editions
quote: ... the famous Almoravid leader, and that somehow there were two Abu Bakr ibn Umar. Yoro Dyao in the traditions published by Henri Gaden, discussed Abu Bakr ibn Umar [Boubacar ebn Amar], as the father of Ndiadiane and of Aram Bakar,
According to Professor Cheikh Anta Diop and P. Egbuna Modum: "History teaches us that the king N'Diadian N'Diaye Djoloff, the first king of the Wolof [Wolof], had a Toucoulor mother and an Arab father. But there is evidence of a contradiction here. The son of an Arab can hardly bear the totemic name N'Diaye. And it is well known that both the name and the first name of the king just the exclamation "This is N'Diadian N'Diaye" (meaning the term "disaster" [or "extraordinary" in Serere sine-language]) made by a marabout Serere ... [seer Serere]. "
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
That is a perfect example of a point I raised in the SA economic bred violence thread.
Ethnicity is not walled off so typology is useless since whatever physiognomy one would want to make into an exclusive tribal identifier could have come from anywhere.
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Boubacar is both a surname and a given name. It is West African adaptation of Arabic name Abu Bakar.
Surname: Sarr Boubacar (born 1951), Senegalese footballer Sidi Mohamed Ould Boubacar (born 1957), Mauritanian politician and Prime Minister of Mauritania Given name: Boubacar Barry (born 1979), Ivorian footballer Boubacar Coulibaly (born 1985), Malian footballer Boubacar Coulibaly (born 1978), Malian footballer Boubacar Dembélé (born 1982), French footballer Boubacar Dialiba (born 1988), Senegalese footballer Boubacar Diallo, Burkinabé film director Boubacar Diallo (footballer) (born 1985), Guinean footballer Boubacar Diarra (born 1979), Malian footballer Boubacar Boris Diop (born 1946), Senegalese writer and journalist Boubacar Kébé (born 1987), Burkinabé-Malian footballer Boubacar Keita (born 1984), Guinean-born Nigerian footballer Boubacar Koné (born 1984), Malian footballer Boubacar Mansaly (born 1988), Senegalese footballer Boubacar Sanogo (born 1982), Ivorian footballer Boubacar Sylla (born 1991), Malian footballer Boubacar Talatou (born 1987), Nigerien footballer Boubacar Traoré (born 1942), Malian musician Boubacar Traore (runner) (born 1971) Guinean activist and Paralympic athlete
____________________________________
Mansa Musa (1280-1337)
Contemporaries of Mansa Musa in Africa>
Abu Bakr (mansa) (died 1285), Prince of the Mali Empire Abu Bakr, also known as Abubakari I or Manding Bory, was the fifth Mansa (Emperor) of the Mali Empire, reigning from 1275 to 1285. He was born Manding Bory to mother Namandjé, third wife to Naré Maghan kon Fatta. Before becoming Mansa, Manding Bory served as kankoro sigui (vizier and second in command) to Sundjata.
Abu Bakr II (died 1312?), Prince of the Mali Empire also spelled ;Abubakri, may have been the ninth mansa of the Mali Empire. He succeeded his nephew Mansa Mohammed ibn Gao and preceded Kankou Musa I. Abu Bakar II appears to have abdicated his throne in order to explore "the limits of the ocean"; however, his expedition never returned.
______________________________________
Abu Bakr ibn Umar (died 1087), Moroccan Almoravid ruler is not contemporary to Mana Musa who is pictured in the maps
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The map is full of characters who lived in wholly different eras of time if indeed they ever lived at all, eg., Queen of Sheba, Prester John etc.
Not going thru this w/u again.
If there is anyone else who wasn't around or can't find where I knocked the stuffing out of our gal Tigger on this then ask away and I'll holla back.
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Boubacar is both a surname and a given name. It is West African adaptation of Arabic name Abu Bakar.
Mansa Musa (1280-1337) his grandfather was Abu-Bakr Keita
Contemporaries of Mansa Musa in Africa>
Abu Bakr (mansa) (died 1285), Prince of the Mali Empire Abu Bakr, also known as Abubakari I or Manding Bory, was the fifth Mansa (Emperor) of the Mali Empire, reigning from 1275 to 1285. He was born Manding Bory to mother Namandjé, third wife to Naré Maghan kon Fatta. Before becoming Mansa, Manding Bory served as kankoro sigui (vizier and second in command) to Sundjata.
Abu Bakr II (died 1312?), Prince of the Mali Empire also spelled ;Abubakri, may have been the ninth mansa of the Mali Empire. He succeeded his nephew Mansa Mohammed ibn Gao and preceded Kankou Musa I. Abu Bakar II appears to have abdicated his throne in order to explore "the limits of the ocean"; however, his expedition never returned.
______________________________________
Abu Bakr ibn Umar (died 1087), Moroccan Almoravid ruler is not contemporary to Mana Musa who is pictured in the maps
So of the many Abu Bakrs in Islamic history if there are three Abu Bakrs from Africa and two of them
Abu Bakr (mansa) (died 1285), Prince of the Mali Empire
and
Abu Bakr II (died 1312?) (of thread topic)
are contemporary to Mansa Musa (1280-1337)
why would Abu Bakr ibn Umar (died 1087) be more likely the camel rider in the Viladestes rather than Abu Bakr II aka Abubakri who preceded Mansa Musa?
Maybe the answer is in the text below the figure ??
although it looks to be in very bad faded condition and the picture resolution is limited
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posted
You will note I mentioned Ahmad ibn Majid in my post in August 2014. Sources for ibn Majid are below: See: R.A.G., Bazan, Latin America the Arabs and Islam,,Muslim World, (1967) pp.284-292;
G. Ferrand, Introduction a l’astrnomie nautique des Arabes, Paris,1928 (p.247)
posted
Ibn Majid was a great navigator and cartographer who wrote important works but did not invent the compass nor do the sources you cite say he was was African. The claim that he was the navigator of Vasco de Gama is disputed. And even in that account written 50 years after he died and asserting he was drunk when discussing trade routes it says Vasco de Gama met in him in the Arab port city Malindi in coastal Kenya. Ibn Majid born in 1421 in Julphar, Oman He was not contemporary to Abubakari II who lived in the early 1300s, the topic of this thread
books.google.com 1977 - Snippet view - More editions
quote: ... the famous Almoravid leader, and that somehow there were two Abu Bakr ibn Umar. Yoro Dyao in the traditions published by Henri Gaden, discussed Abu Bakr ibn Umar [Boubacar ebn Amar], as the father of Ndiadiane and of Aram Bakar,
[below plagiarized from Walrasiad on a Wiki Talk page entry - T al~T, the A]
According to Professor Cheikh Anta Diop and P. Egbuna Modum: "History teaches us that the king N'Diadian N'Diaye Djoloff, the first king of the Wolof [Wolof], had a Toucoulor mother and an Arab father. But there is evidence of a contradiction here. The son of an Arab can hardly bear the totemic name N'Diaye. And it is well known that both the name and the first name of the king just the exclamation "This is N'Diadian N'Diaye" (meaning the term "disaster" [or "extraordinary" in Serere sine-language]) made by a marabout Serere ... [seer Serere]. "
. .
As a precision Ndjaye's father was a Lemtuna Amazigh not Arab. Ndjaye may only be legend, a compendium of several fractured origin stories recounting what was known of the area at that time.
It is known western parts of central and south Mauritania housed many peoples some of whom migrated southward for a variety of reasons including numeric increase of Tamazight speakers.
A royal Pulaar daughter marrying a Lemtuna leader should be no surprise when we recall Tekrur was Muslim before the al~Murabitun and were politically and militarily alligned with them.
Takruri Fatoumata Sall and alMorabid Abu Bakr bin Umar beget 'Burba Wolof' Ahmedou Abubakar Umar ibn al~Lemtuni but as far as the Serere were concerned he was Ndjadjane Ndjaye.
SIDEBAR: Wolof, Pulaar/Fulfulde, and Serere are all Atlantic Niger-Kordofanian speakers and all inhabited north of the Senegal with Zenaga (Maur) Imazighen speakers probably from 1st millenia BCE until the coming of the Hasaniyya Yemenis. three major
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books.google.com 1977 - Snippet view - More editions
quote: ... the famous Almoravid leader, and that somehow there were two Abu Bakr ibn Umar. Yoro Dyao in the traditions published by Henri Gaden, discussed Abu Bakr ibn Umar [Boubacar ebn Amar], as the father of Ndiadiane and of Aram Bakar,
[below plagiarized from Walrasiad on a Wiki Talk page entry - T al~T, the A]
According to Professor Cheikh Anta Diop and P. Egbuna Modum: "History teaches us that the king N'Diadian N'Diaye Djoloff, the first king of the Wolof [Wolof], had a Toucoulor mother and an Arab father. But there is evidence of a contradiction here. The son of an Arab can hardly bear the totemic name N'Diaye. And it is well known that both the name and the first name of the king just the exclamation "This is N'Diadian N'Diaye" (meaning the term "disaster" [or "extraordinary" in Serere sine-language]) made by a marabout Serere ... [seer Serere]. "
. .
As a precision Ndjaye's father was a Lemtuna Amazigh not Arab. Ndjaye may only be legend, a compendium of several fractured origin stories recounting what was known of the area at that time.
It is known western parts of central and south Mauritania housed many peoples some of whom migrated southward for a variety of reasons including numeric increase of Tamazight speakers.
A royal Pulaar daughter marrying a Lemtuna leader should be no surprise when we recall Tekrur was Muslim before the al~Murabitun and were politically and militarily alligned with them.
Takruri Fatoumata Sall and alMorabid Abu Bakr bin Umar beget 'Burba Wolof' Ahmedou Abubakar Umar ibn al~Lemtuni but as far as the Serere were concerned he was Ndjadjane Ndjaye.
SIDEBAR: Wolof, Pulaar/Fulfulde, and Serere are all Atlantic Niger-Kordofanian speakers and all inhabited north of the Senegal with Zenaga (Maur) Imazighen speakers probably from 1st millenia BCE until the coming of the Hasaniyya Yemenis. three major
Yeeeeeeeeees this is the type of knowledge that attracted me to ES back in da day..the study of Africa and Africans in it's own right and on their own terms..aaah refreshing. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Ibn Majid was a great navigator and cartographer who wrote important works but did not invent the compass nor do the sources you cite say he was was African. The claim that he was the navigator of Vasco de Gama is disputed. And even in that account written 50 years after he died and asserting he was drunk when discussing trade routes it says Vasco de Gama met in him in the Arab port city Malindi in coastal Kenya. Ibn Majid born in 1421 in Julphar, Oman He was not contemporary to Abubakari II who lived in the early 1300s, the topic of this thread
Majid is important because if the story about Da Gama, learning about the West Indies from this navigator is true , much of this knowledge about the West Indies, probably came from people who had been trading with the Caribbean since the expedition of Abubakari. .
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Da Gama only knew about the East Indies. He was seeking a direct sea route for Europeans to circumvent Muslim control of that trade via the Red Sea and the Mediterranean.
You have presented absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your oh so bogus claim (a Black man's lie) because there is none for it.
Why don't you please keep it in your compass thread and quit polluting other peoples' threads with that nonsense.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Mmm-hmm
'swhatmtalkinbout
yeah
WomenMusicRumCigars
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We read about private citizens sailing off into the Atlantic loaded with trade goods. If they returned empty handed was what they took payment for a luxury Caribbean vacation women, rum, cigars & entertainment included?
Would a successful colony on Abubakari II's scale ship America's products, produce, and natural resources to Mali empire? I'd think so. But it looks like Mali never heard from him again unless they were keeping it a trade secret.
It seems as if either one of the world's best kept secrets or the Mali expedition colony was low key or Abubakari may've intended to maybe leave Mali and all it meant to him for good.
Please share. I've waited years for evidence of Abubakari establishing transoceanic trade not just the private non-governmental type observed by the Euro explorers.
The Smithstonian put a gag order on vanSertima after he revealed the institution negated its valid C14 date of 1250 for the two Africans, who's incisor teeth were filed, buried at Hull Bay. Because of something so simple as an iron nail TSI concluded the date must be wrong. As if West Africans 750 years ago couldn't manufacture nails.
I don't know. Sure hope an active poster or knowledgeable lurker has those updates.
I would like to see more hard evidence on it too. We know the voyage from Africa to the Americas was technically feasible using the technology of Abu Bakr's day. Thor Hyerdahl' raft voyages proved feasibility, as do the watercraft available in West Africa. I think Bakr's expedition is a possibility, but whether it would be 80,000 men seems doubtful. Why would the monarch spend such vast resources to outfit a massive expedition into the unknown? He's just gonna give up his throne and sail off with 80,000 men? A much smaller, tighter exploration group seems more credible and economical. Load-outs of 80,000 men generally are military invasions of some targeted enemy.
The other main problem is that convincing evidence of these tens of thousands of Africans swarming up various American beaches is not that strong. Fragmentary reports of European explorers of dark-skinned people here and there seem more in line with small groups spread out over time, not massive fleets of hundreds of canoes, carrying tens of thousands. The ocean-spanning Polynesians who reached the frozen wastes of Antartica, and bestrode the vast reaches of the Pacific, were not running thousands of vessels in a fleet, but small groups of men spread out over time. The numbers appear unconvincing, which why I think sweeping claims of colonization remain shaky, even apart from the thin evidence in the America's of reputed massive swarms of Africans coming ashore.
There are some who seem to think Abubakr should be accepted at face value, but why should this be so automatically? When some Portugese sources in the 1500s claimed armies of over one million African troops defeated scholars rightly questioned those claims. How exactly were moderately productive pre-mech agriculturalists putting one million combat troops into the field over such a short time? Even Ghenghis Khan or the Spanish Armada did not boast such fantastic numbers. Yet we are supposed to just take it at face value about 2000 canoes and 80,000 men.
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