posted
"Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as "blacks", while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001)
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Yeah and I got you. We all have family responsibilities.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as "blacks", while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001)
Like it or not the American standard for " blacks" is people with light to dark brown skin and afro hair.
When some body talks about black people in America, they not talking about other dark folk like some Indians, Paksitanis and Arabs. They are talking about people who have afros. This is why somebody like Barack Obama is referred to in America as a black person, even though he is much lighter than his father and is half European genetically. It's the afro hair that is decisive in the American social constuct of blacks. In some parts of Europe a dark skinned Turk with straight hair might be called black. However such people, dark Turks, Indians, South Asians, Pakistanis are not called black in America. Americans call such people "Arabs", "Asians", "brown skinned" or one of the nationalities I just mentioned.
The Oxford Encyclopedia says the ancient Egyptians were "blacks" according to the American definition (excluding late period 26 dynasty + ) The American definition of "blacks" (not "black skinned" people but "blacks") is people from light brown to dark brown who have afro type hair.
Therefore any mummies you see that seem to have wavy straight hair is due to the ancient Egyptians straightening their hair, if not the mummies are misidentified or tampered with.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
But there were no such qualifications as "modern cultural definitions" all the centuries since the Napoleon expedition to now when Americans Europeans Australians and others used their standards to point blank say AEs were white.
And they were scientists mind you.
Yet, what anyone of any culture can see, i.e., the varied brown skin complexions the overwhelming majority of AEs had, needs a begrudged weakened statement that AEs were "black" (in quotes) only by modern American standards and cultural definitions.
Hell during USA slavery their "blacks" were just as physically diverse as now.
Smith's statement is only a pyrrhic victory when one realizes precisely what his words mean depending on who's reading it. Eg., "black" but not negro as in all Africans are not black meaning nearly all the Afro-Asian speakers of the north countries and even black skinned Ethiopians etc.
Like Henn with her blackless Egypt until 1250 CE and blackless North Africa until 800 Common Era despite iconic and textual disconfirmations.
The game is: we can't tell what makes for a black and we will narrow it down to negro so one can be black but not a negro but it's obvious to us what white is in all its broad based inclusive glory
codewords: Eurasian Indo-Aryan west Eurasian caucasoid Caucasian white
USA census etc: whites = people having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as "blacks", while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001)
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Smith's statement is only a pyrrhic victory when one realizes precisely what his words mean depending on who's reading it. Eg., "black" but not negro as in all Africans are not black meaning nearly all the Afro-Asian speakrs of the north countries and even black skinned Ethiopians etc..
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as "blacks", while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001)
If "black" were a scientific definition you would not have to put it in quotes in a scientific context.
The American definition of "blacks" is "Negroes" is people with brown skin and afro hair. That means anybody with brown skin and an afro regardless of if they are North, East, West or South African.
The modern American definition is the societal definition of "Negro" -anybody with dark skin and an afro. Not some other 19th century definition that might exclude Ethiopians, Somalis or other East Africans. The American definition is that if people have afros and dark skin they are Negroes aka Blacks. The old scientific racism variants which Coon based on are NOT the modern American definition that most people go by, not at all.
No American person today looks at an Ethiopian who has an afro and says they are not black
So if you go back to Napoleon's time and Europeans were saying the AEs were white that doesn't mean the definition of black and white is necessarily different. It means they were placing the AE's into what the Oxford Encyclopedia would say is the wrong category to put them into. So if the Oxford Encyclopedia says they are not whites but blacks according to the American standard that means someone with brown skin and an afro and it doesn't matter if they are East African, Ethiopian according to the American definition blacks have afros and can be from any location. That is the current American definition, in my opinion.
It's easy to test. Show a photo of an Ethiopian or Somali with an afro to the average American, no doubt if you ask them what race they are they will say black.
Show them an Indian with straight hair and ask them what race they are they will say "Indian" , "Arab" , "Brown" or "Asian" They won't say "Black"
Like it or not that is the current 21st century American definition. Lamin pointed it out in another thread, people who pass the pencil test. You may not like that definition but that is the American definition of today
Now go back to the thread title
"The Ancient Egyptian state had an indigenous African origin"
^^^ if you have a statement like this you don't even have to get caught up in the varying points of view on what the unscientific word "black" means or if some people have an afro or not. > "indigenous" is the key word, indigenous African
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posted
On this one the lioness is right and Tukuler is wrong.
The Oxford Encylopedia of Ancient Egypt goes further than just stipulating that Ancient Egyptians were "blacks" by American standard. Which is already the strongest statement to say Ancient Egyptians were black Africans like "sub-Saharan" Africans. Negroes to use a slightly more archaic American racial term. They also state some archeological facts demonstrating the linkage between Ancient Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africans.
"Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons. The presence of formative pharaonic symbolism in the Lower Nubian A-Group royal burials at Qustul has led Bruce Williams to posit a common Egyptian-Nubian pharaonic heritage, although this notion has been much disputed. Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures, including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001)
This in fact pretty much goes in line with the article from this thread which talks about an indigenous African origin for the Ancient Egyptian state. Same thing could be said about current aDNA data.
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posted
so the struggle is already near won, now what ?
Look at the modern Greeks, knowing that their ancestors were ancient Greeks has not enabled them to sustain a cutting edge for quite a while, many hundreds of years
If you want to activate the lineage you have to take it and update it, If not let it rest and start something new
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so the struggle is already near won, now what ?
Look at the modern Greeks, knowing that their ancestors were ancient Greeks has not enabled them to sustain a cutting edge for quite a while, many hundreds of years
If you want to activate the lineage you have to take it and update it, If not let it rest and start something new
I didn't use the word struggle anywhere, you're mistaking me for somebody else.
For me, it's really about deciphering and learning more about the history of African people (including Ancient Egyptian). Also from time to time other people's history. I also like Roman/Viking/Ancient Greece movies. It's really about learning more.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so the struggle is already near won, now what ?
Look at the modern Greeks, knowing that their ancestors were ancient Greeks has not enabled them to sustain a cutting edge for quite a while, many hundreds of years
If you want to activate the lineage you have to take it and update it, If not let it rest and start something new
I didn't use the word struggle anywhere, you're mistaking me for somebody else.
For me, it's really about deciphering and learning more about the history of African people (including Ancient Egyptian). Also from time to time other people's history. I also like Roman/Viking/Ancient Greece movies. It's really about learning more.
that word struggle was from Tukuler's post
you thought there was a need to make a thread that asserted the Egyptians were indigenous Africans. The fact that you felt need to state that, make a thread with that title, could be the struggle
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so the struggle is already near won, now what ?
Look at the modern Greeks, knowing that their ancestors were ancient Greeks has not enabled them to sustain a cutting edge for quite a while, many hundreds of years
If you want to activate the lineage you have to take it and update it, If not let it rest and start something new
I didn't use the word struggle anywhere, you're mistaking me for somebody else.
For me, it's really about deciphering and learning more about the history of African people (including Ancient Egyptian). Also from time to time other people's history. I also like Roman/Viking/Ancient Greece movies. It's really about learning more.
that was a word struggle was from Tukuler's post
you thought there was a need to make a thread that asserted the Egyptians were indigenous Africans. The fact that you felt need to state that, make a thread with that title, could be the struggle
Now you're just being ridiculous.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Only for those who are naïve to two facts
1 - current American standards are not world standards throughout all time
2 - the majority of academicians define N and NE Africans as non-black
It is well known that certain Black Americans only slightly resemble inner African phenotypes and are classed as black due to sometimes no more than one out of eight great grand parents being an African and because they were culturally raised in the Black American community.
Smith is saying if you go by fast and loose current American ideology you could call AEs black but once you apply other standards they are not. One needs to know how dialectics work to grasp this and other ideas left unspoken but plain as day to those reading between the lines.
But Smith is wrong because all down the ages AEs are documented as black by all who saw them from ancient Hebrew and Greek primary documentation right up to the Napoleonic expedition after which AE blackness had to be denied. And this was long before the transatlantic trade and the invention of the American Negro, one drop, etc.
This is where the need arose to invent non-black indigenous Africans: Speke's Hamites; caucasoid north and east Africans; etc.
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: On this one the lioness is right and Tukuler is wrong.
The Oxford Encylopedia of Ancient Egypt goes further than just stipulating that Ancient Egyptians were "blacks" by American standard. Which is already the strongest statement to say Ancient Egyptians were black Africans like "sub-Saharan" Africans. Negroes to use a slightly more archaic American racial term. They also state some archeological facts demonstrating the linkage between Ancient Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africans.
"Archaeological evidence also strongly supports an African origin. A widespread northeastern African cultural assemblage, including distinctive multiple barbed harpoons and pottery decorated with dotted wavy line patterns, appears during the early Neolithic (also known as the Aqualithic, a reference to the mild climate of the Sahara at this time). Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this time resembles early Egyptian iconography. Strong connections between Nubian (Sudanese) and Egyptian material culture continue in later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper Egypt. Similarities include black-topped wares, vessels with characteristic ripple-burnished surfaces, a special tulip-shaped vessel with incised and white-filled decoration, palettes, and harpoons. The presence of formative pharaonic symbolism in the Lower Nubian A-Group royal burials at Qustul has led Bruce Williams to posit a common Egyptian-Nubian pharaonic heritage, although this notion has been much disputed. Other ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures, including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming-of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilization." - The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (2001)
This in fact pretty much goes in line with the article from this thread which talks about an indigenous African origin for the Ancient Egyptian state. Same thing could be said about current aDNA data.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
The struggle is continuous The struggle is ongoing The struggle continues A luta continua
You, being a non-black / non-African show you have absolutely no idea of struggle or what the struggle is about, or what is being struggled for and are unaware of the phrase ALUTA CONTINUA its origins and its history of use on both sides of the Atlantic.
Aluta continua
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: so the struggle is already near won, now what ?
Look at the modern Greeks, knowing that their ancestors were ancient Greeks has not enabled them to sustain a cutting edge for quite a while, many hundreds of years
If you want to activate the lineage you have to take it and update it, If not let it rest and start something new
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Only for those who are naïve to two facts
1 - current American standards are not world standards throughout all time
this is not all time.
It's 2014
the American definition of Black is a dark skin person with an afro, period.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
2 - the majority of academicians define N and NE Africans as non-black
the statement carries zero weight unless you can name names. It's BS
And the subject is Ancient Egyptians not modern N and NE Africans
What you want is for some white guy writing and encyclopedia to say "The Egyptians were Black"
no quotes around "black" no small "b"s.
But then the infinate suspicion comes in "but how are they defining Black? " - are they covertly defining "Black" in some way we might not like ? But any definition is a problem >> do you have one ? So it's an infinate GAME, no one really wnat a firm definition they want it to be whatever for the given moment. It's not scientific observation it's political semantics and people want to chase their tails forever
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Besides the utter stupidity of your definition which you foist upon all Americans,
is it equally true and applicable to when north and east Africans are defined as white/Caucasoid?
Seems there's only confusion and restrictive limitations when it comes to who is black (something you champion as if your life depends on it).
Who is white on the other hand... why we never hear a peep out of you on that subject and definition.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Is this equally true and applicable to when north and east Africans are defined as white/Caucasoid?
It's worthless without naming current people who hold this view by name, not crackpot fringe people, people who write academic books/articles or NYTimes best sellers.
Some African citizens are caucasian, some part caucasian, some part Arab, some part Indian. This is also a fact.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Worthless to you maybe worthwhile to everybody else
Try - Henn - Kefi - Maca-Myer for starters in light of the codewords I posted earlier. Meanwhile define white and don't dare ask me another question until you answer mine (your usual face saving avoidance tactic).
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Typical Lyin'Ass hypocrisy pulling **** over on the unwary
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: the American definition of Black is a dark skin person with an afro, period.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Waffle waffle waffle here "See this guy he's not black" or "He's Black (sic) according to American definition" Waffle waffle waffle there
You'll say anything so long as it suits your snaky purposes.
Meanwhile define white
we are waiting ...
white is the opposite of black, two sides of the same coin
there is no one without the other, that is the secret
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
We know why you refuse to do it but quit the **** define white
1. the people's of North Africa are indegenius brown/black Africans. 2. AEians are indegenius black/Africans.
Keeping in mind definition is by continent of origin and closest color match?
Andaman Islanders are black/brown Asians.
" finally get it " quote by Lioness.
Are there black/brown Europeans?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
So. I hope ultimate get my point. Most North Africans has ownership of the continent.....irregardless of what is going through their tiny Moslem heads. They have been sharing the continent with there brothers further south since the beginning of AMH. They are Africans through and through. No admixture needed.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So. I hope ultimate get my point. Most North Africans has ownership of the continent.....irregardless of what is going through their tiny Moslem heads. They have been sharing the continent with there brothers further south since the beginning of AMH. They are Africans through and through. No admixture needed.
Take a look at the religious violence going on in CAR and a little while ago in Mali. I wouldn't call it brotherly
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] New paper came out. African SLC24A5 has the same single origin as non-African SLC24A5, as I've stated all along. Some things can be ruled out with simple thinking and abiding by scientific principles. This thread is a an instructive display of how far some ES members are prepared to go to preserve their childish nonsense fairy tales of African purity. Of only a few ES members can it be said that they're honest and critical. When people start to knowingly deny well documented events, like the entry of Ethio- Semitic languages and genes into East Africa 3kya, you know that they have zero integrity and operate in their own little fantasy world and cannot be trusted when it comes reporting on African population genetics and African history in general. [QUOTE]To gain insight into when and where this mutation arose, we defined common haplotypes in the genomic region around SLC24A5 across diverse human populations and deduced phylogenetic relationships between them. Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Nonsense
USA definition already given; "original peoples of Europe, Mid-East, and N Africa." 2/3rds textbook whites since in real life Arabs, "Arabs," Berbers, Upper Egyptians, Sudanese, Ethiopians, Somalis, etc are nowhere in USA Europe Australia SouthAfrica considered white
USA definition of black "origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa" idiotic definition since subject is included in the definition; also assumes some unmentioned pre-existing definition of black supposedly known to all.
Still waiting for the Lioness definition of white.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: We know why you refuse to do it but quit the **** define white
"white" by American definition is a person of European descent only with no Epicanthic fold It's srtictly geographic and eye shape restricted
"black" is not geographic restricted, it's hair restricted according to American definition
It's not my fault Americans are idiots
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posted
A North African Soccer team, Atlas Lions, Morocco
Americans don't call these people "white". They call them "Arabs"
fo example Doxies in AE calls light skinned Euroepan Jews not white
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Stop being a breying ass You know full well where that's from and before you act like you don't just GOOGLE it or use your preferred source WIKI to find out.
Before inserting my quote in GOOGLE fill out Mid-East to Middle East and fill out N Africa to North Africa
This is very old news and was brought up on ES some time ago.
I mean damn you'll use any excuse to make a post as if you're paid for each stupid post you make.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Nonsense
(white) USA definition already given; "original peoples of Europe, Mid-East, and N Africa."
you made that up and then put it in quotes
stop playing games
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Lyin'ass clown of a snake
Do you not understand the phrase textbook whites nor see I wrote USA whites do not consider MEs nor NAs as fellow whites -- only where it's to their advantage like boosting census numbers or claiming civilizations.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
USA definition already given; "original peoples of Europe, Mid-East, and N Africa." 2/3rds textbook whites since in real life Arabs, "Arabs," Berbers, Upper Egyptians, Sudanese, Ethiopians, Somalis, etc are nowhere in USA Europe Australia SouthAfrica considered white
Such a 1st willful distorting lying ass u r acting like you can't read and understand my non-complex direct statement only you can pretend to be so obtuse nobody else questioned or failed to get it
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: A North African Soccer team, Atlas Lions, Morocco
Americans don't call these people "white". They call them "Arabs"
fo example Doxies in AE calls light skinned Euroepan Jews not white
Tell Larry David he's not a white Caucasian. Caucasian mind you, not merely caucasoid.
The 1964 USA Civil Rights Act classified all Jews as white and so under a different set of legal codes than blacks, Native Americans, etc. 41 CFR Ch.60 Part 60-50.1b&d
Way back in the 1920's iirc the Syrians sued the USA successfully for recognition as white and even earlier some Moorish Americans did too iirc.
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As the study from this thread (first post) and the Oxford Encyclopedia stated. The archaeological continuity of the Ancient Egyptian state, including material and biological, is with Africa not the Middle East. The Ancient Egyptian state had an African origin.
" Moving to the opposite geographical extremity, the very small sample populations available from northern Egypt from before the 1st Dynasty (Merimda, Maadi and Wadi Digla) turn out to be significantly different from sample populations from early Palestine and Byblos, suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time. If there was a south-north cline of variation along the Nile valley it did not, from this limited evidence, continue smoothly on into southern Palestine.73 The limb-length proportions of males from the Egyptian sites group them with Africans rather than with Europeans. " - Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilisation (Kemp, 2005, p.54)Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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Speaking about blackness and Aframs compared to "inner Africans - not my words" and watching the NFL games all season. Did anyonr notice how "African" the pregame preparations are? Is it a black thing or African thing.? Do people in New Guinea prep like that? I believe the black Somoans prep like that also.
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posted
Sometimes you see the white dudes trying to keep-up. Lol. They look lost.. BTW . Black Quarter back in the SB.....2nd straight year!!!! The time has come. Wish McNabb had won it though.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: A North African Soccer team, Atlas Lions, Morocco
Americans don't call these people "white". They call them "Arabs"
fo example Doxies in AE calls light skinned Euroepan Jews not white
That is because some of them in fact could very well be Arabs. How do you know, you don't?
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