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Author Topic: Berbers are primarily not African ?
Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

^for the trolling person above. It's funny and pathetic how you fight this with every drop of blood running through your racist veins.


Sub clade E-M81 is known as the Berber clade, since it's regional to Northwest Africa.

.
what I posted supports much of what Amun Ra posted so what are you talking about?

Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't.
And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA

.

How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not
primarily African? Are Berbers only female?

What about autosomes, primarily African or not?

What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?


I posit the obvious
  • North Africa was populated by indigenees
  • Foreign peoples came to N Afr and had African mates.
  • By the time Berber became NAs' language
    coastal NAs were substantially mixed.
  • Berbers continued taking foreign mates (perhaps preferentially.
  • Berbers remain majority African with the local
    indigenous genetics the highest in evidence.

Confirming data to come in support of the below:

factoring autosomes, nrY, and mtDNA into a whole
Berber are indisputably primarily African as per
genetics. Their philosophy, outreach, and self-
image has no bearing on that biological fact.

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the lioness,
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True, the mean frequency of M81 in North Africa is 42% not 100%
Notably the Siwa are only 1.1% M81

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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The Berbers are a nice mix of European, Middle Eastern and African DNA at different proportion depending on the population and individual analyzed.
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the lioness,
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Many might be described as mulattos,
amoung them some more African than not, others more Euro-Mid Eastern than African. They do have high levels of paternal E, some of it M81. Some upwards of 80%, various E groups, often but not always M81, also some R and J
H and U on the maternals, other Hgs

what are you kiddin me another who were the Berbers thread???
Why am I even playing not this redundancy? Not far back there are a few multi page threads Berber or NA threads
We need new thread topics, keep callin my name get hurt

lioness productions
til the casket drop

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xyyman
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We are back to African men preferential to European women circa 20,000bc!!! Keeping in mind H* and H3 is older in Africa. Sighhhhhh!!!

There is no such thing as a true Negro or true New Guinean.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

^for the trolling person above. It's funny and pathetic how you fight this with every drop of blood running through your racist veins.


Sub clade E-M81 is known as the Berber clade, since it's regional to Northwest Africa.

.
what I posted supports much of what Amun Ra posted so what are you talking about?

Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't.
And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA

.

How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not
primarily African? Are Berbers only female?

What about autosomes, primarily African or not?

What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?


I posit the obvious
  • North Africa was populated by indigenees
  • Foreign peoples came to N Afr and had African mates.
  • By the time Berber became NAs' language
    coastal NAs were substantially mixed.
  • Berbers continued taking foreign mates (perhaps preferentially.
  • Berbers remain majority African with the local
    indigenous genetics the highest in evidence.

Confirming data to come in support of the below:

factoring autosomes, nrY, and mtDNA into a whole
Berber are indisputably primarily African as per
genetics. Their philosophy, outreach, and self-
image has no bearing on that biological fact.

Berbers are not one monolithic group, so who is a Berber then? Is it the person of enslaved European decent? Is it the person who have Black African and European concubine (again enslaved) ancestry? What definition are we to use?

Those Tans and whites are VERY late comers to North Africa. North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt. But by in large, modern day people like Haratin, Tawarga, Tebu etc. are the true North African. There is a great peer reviewed paper called "What happened to the Ancient Libyans? Chasing Sources across the Sahara from Herodotus to Ibn Khaldun" written by Dr. Richard L Smith. He quotes a number of sources, dating back to about 500 BCE, which describe nothing but BLACK Africans living in North Africa. Then about 1100 AD Ibn Khaldoun describes one of the Sanhaja tribes is being bayda “whites” and the rest as blacks (suda). Ibn Khaldoun in his description even states the Black tribes of the Sanhaja are believed to be the original group and the whites looked like that because they were in the north and thus their skin became white. A silly notion indeed, but still shows that North Africa in ancient times, up until recently was dominated by blacks.


Also if you watch this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4sbLY6rxxg, Dr. Keita talks about the white and tan Toureg of a certain geographic location who have had genetic studies done on them. He states they have European admixture, which would explain the current look of some of them. Even still, with their tan and white skin, you can tell there is black African genetic base, through out that population. That video might not be the one I am thinking about, if not just youtube search for Dr. Shomarka Keita, and watch all his videos. One of them talks about genetic test done on Toureg populations. The basics of their history is, some are most likely mixed with white slaves or probably even white Muslims who left Europe after the fall of the Moorish empire. We know that some found their way to North and West Africa, as did Jews. Which would make sense, some of the black Berber tribes were Jews before Islam came into Africa. Contrary to popular belief, many did not convert to Islam and remained Jews for a LONG time. When the Arabs and Africans attached Spain, there were Jews among them who helped to conquer Spain. Their descendants probably became whiter looking when they mixed with European people, and they then went back to their ancestral homes in North/ North West Africa, once Moorish Spain fell.


There is a good peer reviewed paper titled “Judaic Threads in the West African Tapestry: No More Forever?” by Dr. Labelle Prussin. In it he shows source material from Arab travelers, who stated they encountered black “Jewish” peoples in North and West Africa. Also, if you read Tarikh Al Sudan, there is a preamble concerning a Malian man, who gives the manuscript (Tarikh Al Sudan) to a French researcher. The French researcher noted that the Malian told this white man “While Europeans were living in Caves, we were worshiping the God of Moses”, in relation to the fact many peoples in the area claim to have originally practiced a mosaic religion of some sort, long before there was ever a white skinned person claiming to practice a religion based on the teachings of the Prophet Moses.

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xyyman
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Denial......

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt.

It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East).

At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture).

This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.

The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa. Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago.

Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:


Those Tans and whites are VERY late comers to North Africa. North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black.
I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt

where is your evidence that Maghreb was completely black in say 2000 BC to 1100 AD?

What black civilization? What human remains settlement in the Maghreb at that time?


Also you left out the Phoenicians who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC founding Utica, Carthage and other cities.
While they may not be what somebody would describe as white they might be decribed as probably brown levantine looking people, not African.
The population of Carthage was said to be a half million at it's height, largely Phoenician with some indigenous nomads mixing in

You say "pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples"

What is the black civilization of the time in the Maghreb that they were a pocket of?

 -
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man

 -
Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC.
Classical Period. Grave marker
depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus).
Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York.
 -
^^^ sorry does not look like black dude from Africa despite brown skin

^^^ and the Romans army was running the Maghreb in the 2nd century

Where is the record of large numbers of black people settlements at this time ?

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Tukuler
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Genetics anyone?

or just rerun the same ol touchy feelies
(except for Xyy's & ARtU's contributions)

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xyyman
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I am waiting on "new" data to the contrary. When you get time post it. Or cite source. I am open to new perspective but that white women slave ithing s nonsense. A black man's wet dream?
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Tukuler
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Of course H1 & H3 in Africa are
as old or older than in Europe
-- < 12,000 years ago so not paleolithic --
with unique African haplotypes
proving they are not European

BUT

what about the parent H

that's what ultimately
makes H1,3 technically
a back migration

same as the E in Europe
ultimately it's African
yet certain subclades
are European since
those haplotypes are
only found in Europe

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the lioness,
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Berber and NA genetics have been done to death on multi page threads within the past year, the subject is worn out to put it mildly.

further threads on Siwa, Tuareg, Mozabites, barbary pirates, Moroccan sultans, Kabyles, Tunisia, Algeria


The Complex and Diversified Mitochondrial Gene Pool
of Berber Populations
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008533


North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008694

Introducing Algerian Mt DNA and Y-Chromosome to North Africa 2013 Bekada in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=8;t=008774

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Tukuler
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If you don't
wanna chime in
then STFU wench
and let those
who wanna do it
do it

everything you post
is a rehash of what
has been posted once
twice thrice or more

yr dumbass comment
on Berbers is what
prompted this
thread to remind
yr sidewinding ass
of the biology of
Berbers and how
pooled as a whole
they are still,
after millenia
of admixture,
majority local African by genetics.

Berbers are genetically a majority local African people.


It's a fact man a fact

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt.

It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East).

At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture).

This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.

The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa. Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago.

Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data.

Trust me when I tell you, NO ONE knows when European genes started to come into Africa, at least not by way of genetic testing. This 10,000 years ago talk is total bollocks. Dr. Winters posted a website from a professor not to long ago. In it the professor says that Genetics can not tell you with any real certainty when genes were introduced into a population, its impossible. Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black? I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears.
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:


Those Tans and whites are VERY late comers to North Africa. North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black.
I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt

where is your evidence that Maghreb was completely black in say 2000 BC to 1100 AD?

What black civilization? What human remains settlement in the Maghreb at that time?


Also you left out the Phoenicians who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC founding Utica, Carthage and other cities.
While they may not be what somebody would describe as white they might be decribed as probably brown levantine looking people, not African.
The population of Carthage was said to be a half million at it's height, largely Phoenician with some indigenous nomads mixing in

You say "pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples"

What is the black civilization of the time in the Maghreb that they were a pocket of?

 -
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man

 -
Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC.
Classical Period. Grave marker
depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus).
Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York.
 -
^^^ sorry does not look like black dude from Africa despite brown skin

^^^ and the Romans army was running the Maghreb in the 2nd century

Where is the record of large numbers of black people settlements at this time ?

Go read the post I originally made, part of which you are quoting. It clearly names the sources.

PS

You posting pictures of statues that are supposedly from Cyprus doesn't prove much of anything either. especially since Cyprus is not in North Africa. Not to mention there are Greek authors who described Phoenicians as Aithiops.

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Genetics anyone?

or just rerun the same ol touchy feelies
(except for Xyy's & ARtU's contributions)

Genetics does not tell you a entire story and attempting to rely solely on them won't help in understanding the origins of a population, nor will explain when and how foreign genes were introduced into a population. Nor does it trump eye witness accounts. We have to have a multi pronged discussion if we want to truly understand what has happened in N. Africa
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Tukuler
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My guess based on archaeology
is maybe 2500 BCE for Euro
input to coastal N Afrs.

Contrary to your beliefs
contemporaneous primary
documents confirm light
complexioned North Africans
since the Med classical age.

You're just talking ideology.

You may be a preacher
but ES is not your choir
we think and weigh evidence
not rant and rave "black over all"


Genetics is the only thing
that can tell us whether
or not today's Berber
population is primarily
African or not.

For those with non-existant
attention spans this thread
is about the GENETICS as was
raised in the OP, remember


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

^for the trolling person above. It's funny and pathetic how you fight this with every drop of blood running through your racist veins.


Sub clade E-M81 is known as the Berber clade, since it's regional to Northwest Africa.

.
what I posted supports much of what Amun Ra posted so what are you talking about?

Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't.
And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA

.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Trust me when I tell you, NO ONE knows when European genes started to come into Africa, at least not by way of genetic testing. This 10,000 years ago talk is total bollocks.

There was a genetic study of Ancient DNA remains in North Africa, just a few of remains and at the same location iirc (to be verified). The site was carbon dated to earlier than 10000BC (I don't remember the exact date, anyway I always prefer to consider a wide margin of error, especially for such ancient date). And the haplogroups of the remains were haplogroup H and other European descendant haplogroups. Maybe somebody can post the study as it was posted earlier on this forum.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black?

 -

So the Greeks, Roman and Vandals were black? OK

see that light orange area to the South of the Romans? That's desert, few people lived there in the Maghreb


quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears. [/QB]

you mean a non white like these guys?:

 -
 -
 -

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Tukuler
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Kefi's study is flawed
because we can't verify
her haplogroup assignments
because she never gives a
valid polymorphism string
for haplogroups she posits.

 -

How do we know what she calls
CRS is actually CRS since we
see she gives no more than
two polymorphisms for her
haplogroup guesswork?

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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Talking in pictures?
There are always
contradicing pictures
for whatever pictures
one non-verbally spams


This is what clowning trolls do
when they can't contribute any
sensible material -- go picture
spam and derail/distract from
the prime issue BERBER GENETICS


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black?

 -

So the Greeks, Roman and Vandals were black? OK

see that light orange area to the South of the Romans? That's desert, few people lived there in the Maghreb


quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears.

you mean a non white like these guys?:

 -
 -
 - [/QB]


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
My guess based on archaeology
is maybe 2500 BCE for Euro
input to coastal N Afrs.


That is what I am usually talking about. Other people try to put it much later, typezeiss, pure silliness
As today, over 90% of the Magheb population is coastal.
It's not like in this time period, 2500 BC - 664 AD there was this big mass of Black people living all over the desert and these little "pockets"
of Euros living along the coast.
As today those inland areas of the Mahgreb were largley unpopulated and more so before the spread of the camel.
And even during the Islamic conquests there are Arabs entering the region some Syrians in the army, types the Egyptians would call "Asiatics"


The green period is another story but there is no evidence of continuity between the green period and the post hunter gather popualtions that came later.
Swenet even thinks the

Now, going back 12,000kya Brenna Henn et al hypothosized an earlier migration from Eurasia into the Maghreb.
Several articles in recent years support this as a possibility. I'm not sure about it.
Going back to the Iberomaurusian and capsian hunter gatherers of the wet period and the variety of differing skull types there as well as tool kit it's hard to tell if they are all indigenous African

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Talking in pictures?
There are always
contradicing pictures
for whatever pictures
one non-verbally spams


This is what clowning trolls do
when they can't contribute any
sensible material -- go picture
spam and derail/distract from
the prime issue BERBER GENETICS

So far in this thread you have put up no articles on berber genetics,
I have done it many times in the recent past, it's tiresome to repeat, although I did link Coudray

and since the Egyptsearch philosophy is that all haplogroups are African what's the point?

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Talking in pictures?
There are always
contradicing pictures
for whatever pictures
one non-verbally spams


This is what clowning trolls do
when they can't contribute any
sensible material -- go picture
spam and derail/distract from
the prime issue BERBER GENETICS


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Why is it that eye witnesses up until 1100 AD report north Africans being completely black?

 -

So the Greeks, Roman and Vandals were black? OK

see that light orange area to the South of the Romans? That's desert, few people lived there in the Maghreb


quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

I posted the names of two peer reviewed articles that talk about what eye witnesses claim they saw, and funny enough, non were white. Wasn't until 1100 that a mention of a white group appears.

you mean a non white like these guys?:

 -
 -
 -

[/QB]
Lets take this slow. White and tan berbers do not appear in North Africa until around 1100 AD or so. Now you can post alllll the genetic information you want, but at the end of the day it does not tell you when those Genes appear in a area, thats a fact. There was a HUGE slave trade that introduced MILLIONS of whites into North Africa. So trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Lets take this slow. White and tan berbers do not appear in North Africa until around 1100 AD or so. Now you can post alllll the genetic information you want, but at the end of the day it does not tell you when those Genes appear in a area, thats a fact. There was a HUGE slave trade that introduced MILLIONS of whites into North Africa. So trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.

You ignore history. Looking at the largest civilization in the Maghreb, Carthage, at it's height half a million, one of the cities founded by Phoenician traders, non Africans who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC. Sone Greeks were also in the area
There are also the Sea people. There are also the Romans, after that There are also tens of thousands of Germanic Vandals, 5th century BC.

This is history

So where do you think these people wound up?

They wound up in a big mixture along with indigenous Africans,
These are the roots of the berbers. All well before the time of Christ

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Tukuler
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Watch out now
you'll break neck blowin yr own horn

like u the only one ever posted studies

give it a breal

we were posting studies before you got here
we'll be posting studies after you done gone


meanwhile you haven't done a thing
to support you OP remark

u still no answer what I ask u

remember lil ms sidewinder


Lyin'Ass quote
"You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't.
And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA "

to which I ask and still await (w/supporting studies)

How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not
primarily African? Are Berbers only female?

What about autosomes, primarily African or not?

What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?


BTW u silly ass
ES is no monolith
each member
has their own
point of view

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Talking in pictures?
There are always
contradicing pictures
for whatever pictures
one non-verbally spams


This is what clowning trolls do
when they can't contribute any
sensible material -- go picture
spam and derail/distract from
the prime issue BERBER GENETICS

So far in this thread you have put up no articles on berber genetics,
I have done it many times in the recent past, it's tiresome to repeat, although I did link Coudray

and since the Egyptsearch philosophy is that all haplogroups are African what's the point?


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing. [/QB]

That makes no sense, there is prehistory


______________________________________________


http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002397

PLOS Genetics 2012

Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Brenna M. Henn equal contributor,

Laura R. Botigué equal contributor,
Simon Gravel, Wei Wang Abra Brisbin. Jake K. Byrnes,
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid,Pierre A. Zalloua,

Abstract

North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data [730,000 sites] from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago [approximately 1,200 ya]; a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago [approximately 750 ya]. Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa.

_______________________________________________

^^^ It doesn't matter if you agree with the hypothesis. They are talking about 12,000 yeras ago, well before "historical data" in the region.

It is prehistoric, so this is where genetics and archaeology comes in.

The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years.
The longest of these sequences, from Taforalt, shows an intermittent occupation history spanning the period ca. 18,000–

This is far before history, It's prehistoric, Reality doesn't start when somebody first writes something down or you happen to find some ancient writing.

Anyway even the Egyptians record Asiatics with straight hair and skin lighter than theirs, non-Africans in North Africa further back than 1100 AD.

In fact further back than 1100 BC !

These are part of the root of the berbers

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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The lioness, the study you posted above is only DNA estimation/inference based on modern population distribution but do you have the study about ancient North African remains before (or around) 10000BC I talked about above? The aDNA study. I'm not sure if it was the full study or only the abstract. I know it was only mtDNA (which was very unfortunate).
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB]
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:



Diop, Clyde and Amun Ra are more Afrocentric that you are. You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't.
And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA

.


I don't have to qualify their position,

The only point I was making is that berbers should be looked at on a autosomal basis and not on the basis of one young haplogroup, M81, that Siwa virtually don't carry

now carry on,

I'm going to try to bow out of this, because- been there done that

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Tukuler
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Where did Germanic Vandals wind up?

I presume you mean the ones who
didn't run off to the Goths or
find refuge in Saldae Algeria,
right on the Mediterranean coast,
and adapt to what Berbers were
there.

Did you read the report from the
6th century about them conscripted
into a Byzantine army to fight an
enemy somewhere in Persia whereever?

No? Try Procopius.

Now what was the name of that Vandal cohort again?

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

I don't have to qualify their position,



I'm going to try to bow out of this, because-

.
You mean you can't qualify your statement
that you laid at their door post. You're
going to bow out because you cannot post
anything in support of your presumption.

O Cowardly Lyin'Ass this is what your
snakey ass is slinking away from

quote:

Lyin'Ass quote
"You cliam that berbers are primarily African. They don't.
And this is bourne out by the maternal DNA "

to which I ask and still await (w/supporting studies)

How does maternal DNA prove Berbers are not
primarily African? Are Berbers only female?

What about autosomes, primarily African or not?

What about nrY Chromosomes, primarily African or not?




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the lioness,
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19090581

Post-last glacial maximum expansion from Iberia to North Africa revealed by fine characterization of mtDNA H haplogroup in Tunisia.
Cherni L, Fernandes V, Pereira JB, Costa MD, Goios A, Frigi S, Yacoubi-Loueslati B, Amor MB, Slama A, Amorim A, El Gaaied AB, Pereira L.
Author information
Abstract
The first large-scale fine characterization of Tunisian H lineages clarifies that the post-Last glacial maximum expansion originating in Iberia not only led to the resettlement of Europe but also of North Africa. We found that 46% of 81 Tunisian H lineages subscreened for 1,580 bp in mtDNA coding region were affiliated with H1 and H3 subhaplogroups, which are known to have originated in Iberia. Although no signs of local expansion were detected, which would allow a clear dating of their introduction, the younger and less diverse Tunisian H1 and H3 lineages indicate Iberia as the radiating centre. Major contributions from historical migrations to this Iberian genetic imprint in Tunisia were ruled out by the mtDNA gene pool similarity between Berber/Arab/cosmopolitan samples and some "Andalusian" communities, settled by the descendents of the "Moors" who once lived in Iberia for 10 centuries (between 8th and 17th centuries), before being expelled to Tunisia.
Copyright 2009 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

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Tukuler
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Some bow out Silly Rabbit

Tunisia is not all of Tamazgha
and Berbers are not only female.

Also since H1'3 is about the
same age in Africa and Europe
but is highest frequency in
Africa where it has haplotypes
not found in Europe it's best
to conclude NA H1,3 is African
just like certain E subclades
are Europe specific.

But for arguments sake when I
present my analysis of mtDNA
nrY and autosomes of Berbers
overall I will count the H1'3
as European

and still you will see overall
Berbers are predominantly local
African genetically despite any
and all admixture from wherever.

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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
The lioness, the study you posted above is only DNA estimation/inference based on modern population distribution but do you have the study about ancient North African remains before (or around) 10000BC I talked about above? The aDNA study. I'm not sure if it was the full study or only the abstract. I know it was only mtDNA (which was very unfortunate).

The is some DNA from Taforalt,Morocco, 12000 BP, but I only see the mtDNA
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa#cite_note-3

Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of North Africa


highest E-M81 frequencies


Chenini–Douiret Berbers, 100%

Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%

Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%

Tunisia/Bou Omrane 87.5

Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%

___________________________


 -

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
The lioness, the study you posted above is only DNA estimation/inference based on modern population distribution but do you have the study about ancient North African remains before (or around) 10000BC I talked about above? The aDNA study. I'm not sure if it was the full study or only the abstract. I know it was only mtDNA (which was very unfortunate).

The is some DNA from Taforalt,Morocco, 12000 BP, but I only see the mtDNA
I thought it was another one but it must be it. It's very unfortunate they didn't test for Y-aDNA too.
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E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.

Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages

Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,

Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans,

this statement may be wrong, I'm reviewing it
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2004

see table 1 at below link for frequency chart


______________________________________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b [E-M215] Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa

Fulvio Cruciani,1

Abstract
We explored the phylogeography of human Y-chromosomal haplogroup E3b by analyzing 3,401 individuals from five continents. Our data refine the phylogeny of the entire haplogroup, which appears as a collection of lineages with very different evolutionary histories, and reveal signatures of several distinct processes of migrations and/or recurrent gene flow that occurred in Africa and western Eurasia over the past 25,000 years. In Europe, the overall frequency pattern of haplogroup E-M78 does not support the hypothesis of a uniform spread of people from a single parental Near Eastern population. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism. E-M34 chromosomes were more likely introduced in Ethiopia from the Near East. In conclusion, the present study shows that earlier work based on fewer Y-chromosome markers led to rather simple historical interpretations and highlights the fact that many population-genetic analyses are not robust to a poorly resolved phylogeny.


Two of the three branches of haplogroup E, the major clades E1 and E2, have been observed almost exclusively on the African continent, where their distribution has been analyzed in detail [Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002]. The third branch, the clade E3, defined by the mutation P2, is the only one that has also been observed in Europe and in western Asia, where it has generally been found at frequencies <25% [Hammer et al. 2000, 2001; Semino et al. 2000; Scozzari et al. 2001; Cinnioğlu et


Recently, it has been proposed that E3b originated in sub-Saharan Africa and expanded into the Near East and northern Africa at the end of the Pleistocene [Underhill et al. 2001]. E3b lineages would have then been introduced from the Near East into southern Europe by immigrant farmers, during the Neolithic expansion [Hammer et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001].

E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study], but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations [31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]]; in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare [1.9%], and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger [9.1%], who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%–4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested [Bosch et al. 2001] that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky [95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky] that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 [fig. 2C] support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. [2001] in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula: in our data set, 8 of 15 E-M78 chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe [see above]. Second, and more importantly, the degree of the African contribution is highly variable across different Iberian populations: the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin [E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81] was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos [table 1]. A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos [18%] and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians [17%] has also recently been reported [Maca-Meyer et al. 2003]. Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.

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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.

Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages

Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia

Not really a fan of genetics cause sometimes they makeup data and I know that you said could be wrong, but where did you read that euros have more M81 then Africans not in North Africa?

Was it in that Cruciani data you posted?

Remember Lioness that Berbers live all across west Africa and Central Africa.

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Also Lioness don't forget these are Euro centered studies, so sometimes they find what they want to find.

Not the truth all the times.

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xyyman
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Any new data? we discussed all the above before.

And yeah there is an indegenous(pre-history-paleolithic)) element in North Africa if not the Berber. Who?
Also remember,I am going strictly on genetic data on sampled populations, there is very little difference between arab speaking and berber speaking populations. Many studies have confirmed that..even Henn.

Keep in mind Henn's sampled "middle Easterns" are ONE population. ie the heavily Africanized Bahrain. Behar, Henn, DNATribes data show that Syrians, Iraq(Levants) are NOT closely matched to NAians. Irregardless of picture spam.

Any new data...anyone?

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Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!
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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Lets take this slow. White and tan berbers do not appear in North Africa until around 1100 AD or so. Now you can post alllll the genetic information you want, but at the end of the day it does not tell you when those Genes appear in a area, thats a fact. There was a HUGE slave trade that introduced MILLIONS of whites into North Africa. So trying to use genetics to explain when these genes appear in North Africa without the historical data means absolutely nothing.

You ignore history. Looking at the largest civilization in the Maghreb, Carthage, at it's height half a million, one of the cities founded by Phoenician traders, non Africans who came from the Lebanon region around 800 BC. Sone Greeks were also in the area
There are also the Sea people. There are also the Romans, after that There are also tens of thousands of Germanic Vandals, 5th century BC.

This is history

So where do you think these people wound up?

They wound up in a big mixture along with indigenous Africans,
These are the roots of the berbers. All well before the time of Christ

Again, how did Greeks, who saw Phoenicians with their own eyes describe them? Second question, what did eye witnesses describe the population of North Africa as in terms of demographics from as early as 500BC till 1100AD? Did these mysterious prehistoric whites magically disappear in 500BC - 1100AD and then reappear from 1200AD onward? Posting pictures will not answer this question either, as no one is denying the advent of white slaves being brought into North Africa in the millions from in CE, which would explain the current population, so again picture spamming wont help this conversation.
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.

Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages

Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia

Lioness, beginning to understand what your saying Euros DO have more E M81.

When you look at some North Africans, Some look like Euros then you realize that E M81 is an majority European gene (there is a answer on both sides of the coin, sometimes both answers are right or wrong or one side is right and the other wrong)

What separates A person like Zinedine Zidane from Zarkhozy?

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xyyman
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It is hard to believe white European women was in search of black love, or hunting for food without their white men in Sahel central Africa 20,000ya. In fact Henn concluded this back migration "IF" it occurred, was close to 40,000ya. Iirc Cruciani and others speculated 30,000ya. Kivildsid? speculated occupation of NA about 50,000ya. Anthropological evidence point to more than 100,000ya.

Point ? There is no race. Only populations.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!


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xyyman
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Sage when you get the new data, post it. I am out for now.

PN2 M81 is European ..... Good god!

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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
It is hard to believe white European women was in search of black love, or hunting for food without their white men in Sahel central Africa 20,000ya.

Point ? There is no race. Only populations.

quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Remember even the Taureg(Sahel) are heavily MtDNA H with more E1b1a. What does that tell you? tsk! Tsk!


Don't know about the 20 000 part

but

hopefully those who advocate race and "superiority" will realize that.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
E M81 is believed to be a young but African Maghrebian haplogroup and it is believed from there it spread to Europe.

Europeans have higher frequencies of M81 than Sub Saharan Africans, although Sub Saharans are nice people and have their own E lineages

Some of recent articles describe peleistocene gene gene flow in both directions between Africa and Eurasia

Lioness, beginning to understand what your saying Euros DO have more E M81.

When you look at some North Africans, Some look like Euros then you realize that E M81 is an majority European gene (there is a answer on both sides of the coin, sometimes both answers are right or wrong or one side is right and the other wrong)

What separates A person like Zinedine Zidane from Zarkhozy?

M81 is a unique African haplogroup not believed to have originated in Europe.
It's frequenices are very high in the Mahgreb but moderate to low in Europe and Sub Saharan Africa

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