Genome-Wide and Paternal Diversity Reveal a Recent Origin of Human Populations in North Africa
Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid
The geostrategic location of North Africa as a crossroad between three continents and as a stepping-stone outside Africa has evoked anthropological and genetic interest in this region. Numerous studies have described the genetic landscape of the human population in North Africa employing paternal, maternal, and biparental molecular markers. However, information from these markers which have different inheritance patterns has been mostly assessed independently, resulting in an incomplete description of the region. In this study, we analyze uniparental and genome-wide markers examining similarities or contrasts in the results and consequently provide a comprehensive description of the evolutionary history of North Africa populations. Our results show that both males and females in North Africa underwent a similar admixture history with slight differences in the proportions of admixture components. Consequently, genome-wide diversity show similar patterns with admixture tests suggesting North Africans are a mixture of ancestral populations related to current Africans and Eurasians with more affinity towards the out-of-Africa populations than to sub-Saharan Africans. We estimate from the paternal lineages that most North Africans emerged ~15,000 years ago during the last glacial warming and that population splits started after the desiccation of the Sahara. Although most North Africans share a common admixture history, the Tunisian Berbers show long periods of genetic isolation and appear to have diverged from surrounding populations without subsequent mixture. On the other hand, continuous gene flow from the Middle East made Egyptians genetically closer to Eurasians than to other North Africans. We show that genetic diversity of today's North Africans mostly captures patterns from migrations post Last Glacial Maximum and therefore may be insufficient to inform on the initial population of the region during the Middle Paleolithic period. ___________________________________________________
There are several studies suggesting North Africans are primarily Eurasians, this, the Bekada, Henn, so does it all come down to just haplogroup frequencies and they are making wrong conclusions about the data? And while M81 is African,
Published online 2004 March 24. PMCID: PMC1181964 Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,1
E-M81 is very common in northwestern Africa, with frequencies as high as 80% (Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study), but its frequency sharply declines on the continent toward the east, and the haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa. The distribution of E-M81 chromosomes in Africa closely matches the present area of distribution of Berber-speaking populations on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup–ethnic group parallelism: in northwestern Africa, the lowest frequencies for this haplogroup have been reported in two Arab-speaking Moroccan populations (31% and 52% vs. 65%–80% in six Berber speaking groups from Morocco and Algeria [Bosch et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study]); in Egypt, where Berbers are restricted to a few villages, E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), who also speak a Berber language. Outside of Africa, E-M81 has been observed in all the six Iberian populations surveyed, with frequencies in the range of 1.6%–4.0% in northern Portuguese, southern Spaniards, Asturians, and Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria. It has been suggested (Bosch et al. 2001) that recent gene flow may have brought E3b chromosomes from northwestern Africa into Iberia, as a consequence of the Islamic occupation of the peninsula, and that such gene flow left only a minor contribution to the current Iberian Y-chromosome pool. The relatively young TMRCA of 5.6 ky (95% CI 4.6–6.3 ky) that we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. (2001) in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula: in our data set, 8 of 15 E-M78 chromosomes belong to cluster α, denoting gene flow from mainland Europe (see above). Second, and more importantly, the degree of the African contribution is highly variable across different Iberian populations: the proportion of haplogroup E chromosomes of African origin (E[xE3b], E-M35*, and E-M81) was <5% in three Spanish locations; 10.0% and 14.2% in northern and southern Portugal, respectively; and >40% in the Pasiegos (table 1). A relatively high frequency of E-M81 in a different sample of Pasiegos (18%) and non-Pasiegos Cantabrians (17%) has also recently been reported (Maca-Meyer et al. 2003). Such differences in the relative African contribution to the male gene pool of different Iberian populations may reflect, at least in part, the different durations of Islamic influence and introgression in different parts of the peninsula, as well as drift/founder effects for the small Pasiegos group.
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The North African haplogorup E-M81 is more common in certain European populations than in Sub Saharan Africa which has virtually none 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria (Cruciani 2004) above. 24% (Maca-Meyer 2003+Scozzari 2001), http://discovercantabria.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/history-of-cantabria/ The first written accounts of Cantabria come in 200BC when it is believed the people who lived there fought with the carthaginians against the Romans during the Second Punic War. The Cantabri, tribal people who lived in the region, were used as mercenaries in many wars and were known as being fierce fighters. In 29BC the Cantabri were forced to fight to protect their land from Roman invasion, but were outnumbered.
The Middle Ages
After the fall of the Roman Empire, the Cantabri regained independence during the Visigoths reign until 714, when the Muslim Moors invaded the area. The Moors had started their campaign of Spanish invasion three years earlier and were slowly capturing the Iberian peninsula. The Berbers and Arabs took the Cantabrian capital of Amaya, which is now in modern Burgos, (Castilla y Leon) forcing the Cantabri to ally themselves with the Kingdom of Asturias, which was still under visigoth rule. The invaders struggled to subdue the combined strength of Cantabrians and Asturians in the Cantabrian mountains and their defeat at the Battle of Covadonga in Asturias signalled the start of the reconquista of Spain.
The Moors controlled the majority of the Iberian peninsula, apart from the Cantabrian coast and its mountains. Christians flocked to the region to escape Muslim domination and slowly Alfonso I and Alfonso II started to recapture lands from the North African occupiers.
Ann Hum Genet. 2003 Jul;67(Pt 4):329-39. Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA characterization of
Pasiegos, a human isolate from Cantabria (Spain).
Maca-Meyer N, Sánchez-Velasco P, Flores C, Larruga JM, González AM, Oterino A, Leyva-Cobián F. Author information Abstract Mitochondrial DNA sequences and Y chromosome haplotypes were characterized in Pasiegos, a human isolate from Cantabria, and compared with those of other Cantabrian and neighbouring Northern Spain populations. Cantabria appears to be a genetically heterogeneous community. Whereas Lebaniegos do not differ from their eastern Basque and western Asturian and Galician neighbours, Pasiegos and other non-Lebaniego Cantabrians show significant differences with all of them. Pasiegos are peculiar for their high frequencies of Y chromosomal markers (E-M81) with North African assignation, and Y chromosomal (R-SRY2627) and mtDNA (V, I, U5) markers related to northern European populations. This dual geographic contribution is more in agreement with the complex demographic history of this isolate, as opposed to recent drift effects. The high incidence in Cantabrians with pre-V and V mtDNA haplotypes, considered as a signal of Postglacial recolonization in Europe from south-western refugees, points to such refugees as a better candidate population than Basques for this expansion. However, this does not discount a conjoint recolonization.
Compared to other North European populations they also share high frequencies of R-SRY10831b Y-chromosome lineage and of mtDNA lineages V and I. For the African input, it is tempting to propose an asymmetric sexual contribution in which males predominate. Although it could be true, this supposition should be regarded with caution, since the majority of North African mtDNA lineages are also present in Europe (Rando et al. 1998). There are, currently, two theories to explain this not negligible African input on the Iberian peninsula. For some, it is mainly the result of the historic Islamic occupation (Bosch et al. 2001; Pereira et al. 2000), whereas others, without totally denying this possibility, favour the bulk of this influence as having prehistoric roots (Gómez-Casado et al. 2000; González et al. 2003). If the sexual asymmetry could be demonstrated the former hypothesis would be strengthened. In any case, the fact that this African influence similarly affects other Cantabrians and the lack of assigned Near East lineages in Pasiegos, rules out the hypothesis that this isolate was specifically founded by Moorish and Jewish refugees. The second component points to some kind of relationship between Cantabrians and Northern Europeans. It could be explained as a result of the well documented waves of Northern tribes that, throughout the Pyrenees, have repeatedly invaded the Iberian Peninsula since prehistoric times. The addition of data from a small sample of Pasiegos, previously published (Scozzari et al. 2001), increases the frequency of the North African marker E-M81T to 24% in the total sample.
In the light of our results, this focus could well be displaced to Cantabria. Nevertheless, a more recent northern invasion bringing V sequences that mixed with a recipient Cantabrian population harbouring mainly pre-V sequences is also a plausible alternative. The most probable hypothesis about the origin of Pasiegos, which also holds for other Cantabrians, is that they are the result of an ancient indigenous substrate more or less mixed with more recent immigrants. The other possibility, that the high frequencies found in Cantabrians for lineages with dual geographic origins have been the result of genetic drift, is weakened because it happens in outbred and inbred samples, and it is recurrent in independent male and female genetic lineages as well as in autosomal markers (Esteban et al. 1998; Sánchez-Velasco et al. 1999).
Even today, Cantabrians (the Pasiego included, Lebaniegos excluded), at the North of the Iberian Peninsula, seem to be a genetically well differentiated community, as deduced from uniparental and autosomal (Esteban et al. 1998; Sánchez-Velasco et al. 2003) markers, perhaps to a higher degree than their neighbours, the Basques, who are the best known European isolate on linguistic grounds.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Before things go too far astray I'll put up another uniparental study analysis though I haven't "Painted" the text yet.
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Tukuler
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posted
A good capsule of Ennafaa's (2011, Fregel co-author) data for our purposes are Tables S5 & S6 with the Figure 4 pie.
Here are TS5 & TS6 with Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt population frequencies for select mtDNA & nrY Hgs.
I've also included Ennafaa's F4 even though I posted it in a thread from a year ago. At a glance. The pie slices detail the haplogroups and one can readily delineate the two major originating geographies Africa and Eurasia clearly enough.
Ennafaa recognizes a subclade may be of a different geography than its parent clade or that clade's upstream haplogroup(s).
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Tukuler
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Member # 19944
posted
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Ennafaa's
* U6 & M1 _____ as African * E-M96 & E-M35 as African * H/HV/V ______ as western EurAsian * P-M45 _______ as western EurAsian
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each selected African nation and views of them as
* a Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core "horns of the Maghreb" subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
please excuse this format until I fix it later
code:
Ennafaa 2011 TS5 mtDNA & TS6 nrY geo-freqs
mtDNA nrY Chrom uniparentals maternal paternal overall AF UA AF UA AF UA
MOR 38.6 61.5 85.9 14.3 62.3 37.9
TUN 45.8 54.0 72.2 27.8 59.0 40.9
LIB 38.0 62.2 91.5 8.5 64.8 35.4
EGY 43.5 56.5 41.5 58.4 42.5 54.5
NA 41.5 58.6 72.8 27.3 57.2 43.0
BRBR 40.8 59.2 83.2 16.9 62.0 38.1
MGRB 42.2 57.8 79.1 21.1 60.7 39.5
AF = African - South of Sahara; Sahara; North of Sahara UA = EurAsian - Out of Africa; not continental African
NA = MOR TUN LIB EGY BRBR = MOR TUN LIB MGRB = MOR TUN
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Tukuler
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
So Clyde, you don't contribute to my thread but you steal my synopsis distort it and run off to Dienekes with it.
This is what I wrote not your bullshit distortion claiming M1 U6 and L3e5 as European to fit your uninformed outdated anti-Berber ideology.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's
* H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 ___ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Since you follow this thread you know, because you have been shown, that today's North African people of Berber background are primarily African per their uniparental DNA as witnessed in population genetics reports -- even by "Berber" scientists themselves -- and are not Europeans like you wish.
The sad part is your version of my synopsis presents it as Berber DNA when it is only the haplogroups most likely to be controversial in assignment and I accepted them as Bekada ranked them to demonstrate that even by Eurocentric measures the raw data still shows Berbers are primarily African.
They are what Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" type.
They are blackest south toward the Sahel and are whitest nearer the Mediterranean.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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posted
Careful perusal of Ennafaa 2011 demanded I redo the math.
there is a sub-Saharan Africa contribution comprising all L mtDNA lineages (34.1%) and the Y-chromosome haplogroups A, B, E-M96, E-M2 and E-M35 (16.3%). There is also a native North African component represented by the U6 and M1 mtDNA haplogroups (8.2%) and by the Y-chromosome E-M81 haplogroup (48.2%). The resting lineages have to be assigned to a more generalized western Eurasian origin.
Ennafaa assigned mtDNA N and nrY E-M78 as EurAsian so I had to transfer them from my African column and recalculate each nation, the groupings, and the overalls.
That precision refined one of my previous conclusions.
That, and the format fix, coming up next.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies respect Ennafaa's
* U6 & M1 ________ as African * E-M96 & E-M35 __ as African * H/HV/V & N _____ as western EurAsian * P-M45 & E-M78 __ as western EurAsian
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Ennafaa's selected African samples
* Egypt is not primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African
Below are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each selected African nation and views of them as
* a Mediterranean Africa superset * a limited Tamazgha subset, and * a core "horns of the Maghreb" subset.
Because the highest Med Afr freq 50.9 is less than 51 the first set supports Berbers not primarliy African. 2nd & 3rd sets support Berbers are primarily African.
posted
Wait, E3 originates in Africa, hence E3b originates there as well according to that theory of human movements. But of course these clowns never stop making up circular arguments. Put it this way. E3 is African daddy. He has a kid E3b. E3b is still African, I don't care if he hopped on a plane, went to Mars and married some martians. Those martian genes don't change E3b from being African..... but lets continue.
So they can say something silly like In conclusion, we detected the signatures of several distinct processes of migration and/or recurrent gene flow associated with the dispersal of haplogroup E3b lineages. Early events involved the dispersal of E-M78 chromosomes from eastern Africa into and out of Africa, as well as the introduction of the E-M34 subclade into Africa from the Near East. Later events involved short-range migrations within Africa (E-M78\ and E-V6) and from northern Africa into Europe (E-M81 and E-M78), as well as an important range expansion from the Balkans to western and southern-central Europe (E-M78). This latter expansion was the main contributor to the present distribution of E3b chromosomes in Europe.
Here is the key. They are saying that E3b clearly originates in Africa and that E3b had a bunch of kids all over East Africa, North Africa and Arabia. These kids began to move around and into Europe. But for some reason, according to this conclusion, instead of the E3b grandchild M81 getting into North Africa by direct route from East Africa and across the Mediterranean into Europe (the most logical conclusion), these guys claim that it went on a circular route around the Levant and through the Balkans into Europe and then BACK into Africa, and that along the way, E3b became NOT African.... It is European now. Some of E3bs children did a Michael Jackson on us.
Now given that the darkest shade of green is on the coast of Southern Europe, what does that tell you? Obviously this gene was introduced to Europe from Africa.....
Based on what I see, there was a migration of related E3b populations out of East Africa, across the desert and into North Africa between 10kya and 5kya and some of these folks went into Europe, indtroducing M34 into Europe. The rest went further West into the Maghreb and branched into M81. All one family of Africans not some Europeans carrying an African lineage, basically Aboriginal North African types as seen in North Africa to this day and even in the old post cards.
These people are simply desperate liars who want to pretend that E3b lineages in North Africa came from Europe and not Africa which is silly.
And the funny part is even they know this is B.S. as even their own artists have been fascinated with these black beauties over the last few centuries.
Orientalist Joze Cruz Herrera (Spain). Do a search and see all the images of North African women, looking like Gypsies... And it is not ironic that most of these artworks are in private collections.... That is where most of the good stuff is.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
So Clyde, you don't contribute to my thread but you steal my synopsis distort it and run off to Dienekes with it.
This is what I wrote not your bullshit distortion claiming M1 U6 and L3e5 as European to fit your uninformed outdated anti-Berber ideology.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's
* H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 ___ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Since you follow this thread you know, because you have been shown, that today's North African people of Berber background are primarily African per their uniparental DNA as witnessed in population genetics reports -- even by "Berber" scientists themselves -- and are not Europeans like you wish.
The sad part is your version of my synopsis presents it as Berber DNA when it is only the haplogroups most likely to be controversial in assignment and I accepted them as Bekada ranked them to demonstrate that even by Eurocentric measures the raw data still shows Berbers are primarily African.
They are what Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" type.
They are blackest south toward the Sahel and are whitest nearer the Mediterranean.
It is no secret that I do not accept the Berbers as Africans.
posted
lioness posts: There are several studies suggesting North Africans are primarily Eurasians, this, the Bekada, Henn, so does it all come down to just haplogroup frequencies and they are making wrong conclusions about the data?
--------------------------------- ------
Yawn, as already shown numerous times in other threads the so-called "Eurasian" veneer is heavily a product of sampling on the Arabized coastal Mediterranean. WHen a fuller geographic picture of "North Africa" is undertaken, the patterns that emerge are quite different.
The North African haplogorup E-M81 is more common in certain European populations than in Sub Saharan Africa which has virtually none..
^^DOuble yawn. 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria (Cruciani 2004) above. 24% (Maca-Meyer 2003+Scozzari 2001),
Pereira et al. 2010 report high levels amongst Tuareg in two Saharan populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom, in Burkina Faso, and 81.8% from Gosi in Mali. (Pereira et al. (2010), "Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel", European Journal of Human Genetics 18 (8): 915–923)
Note than Burkina Faso is "sub Saharan" making one of the highest concentrations of E-M81 in the world, "sub-Saharan." Gosi is located virtually on the Saharan border, in the borderlands actually. A few years ago, before the desert shifted south it would have been fully "sub-Saharan"- again with one of the the highest concentration of E-M81, far exceeding any "EUrasian" location.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
But that doesn't change the fact that the highest concentration of E-M81 is located virtually in a "sub-Saharan" location in Mali, near Burkina Faso, a lot more than any "Eurasian" location.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] But that doesn't change the fact that the highest concentration of E-M81 is located virtually in a "sub-Saharan" location in Mali, near Burkina Faso, a lot more than any "Eurasian" location.
Yes frequencies of M81 near 100% in some Tunisian populations, that's inside Africa and outside Africa the highest frequencies outside Africa are 24-41% Pasiegos from Cantabria, less than half
What is your source on "the highest concentration of E-M81 is located in Mali?
This is what native people of Mali look like:
____________________________________
Tuaregs look like some native Malian (the first man below) but many also look mulatto and you can also see the difference in Tuareg DNA compared to non-Tuareg Malian DNA Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] But that doesn't change the fact that the highest concentration of E-M81 is located virtually in a "sub-Saharan" location in Mali, near Burkina Faso, a lot more than any "Eurasian" location.
Yes frequencies of M81 near 100% in some Tunisian populations, that's inside Africa and outside Africa the highest frequencies outside Africa are 24-41% Pasiegos from Cantabria, less than half
What is your source on "the highest concentration of E-M81 is located in Mali?
This is what native people of Mali look like:
____________________________________
Tuaregs look like some native Malian (the first man below) but many also look mulatto and you can also see the difference in Tuareg DNA compared to non-Tuareg Malian DNA
Man lioness, still stuck on the Looks of people, WHY.
The Uldemne of cameroon, Look different then most europeans, yet they have the highest concentration of R.
The Tuareg DNA is majority different not because they ain't west African, but that these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
When they saw that majority of these Tuareg Genes were STILL overwhelmingly African and not just African, but WEST AFRICAN, all of an sudden we have e1b1b1b1b1b1bcontinued b1b1b1b1ba nonsense.
Why you always post this crap without thinking these euros are trying to not put europeans in Africa, but FORCE europeans in Africa. Enter the slavs.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Tuareg DNA is majority different not because they ain't west African, but that these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
Stop making up stuff
also some of their ancestry is straight haired Arab, look into the mtDNA of the Tuareg and stop getting emotional
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. Berbers genetically are mainly related to Southern Europeans, instead of Middle Easterners (J1-M267)---support their European origin. Berber DNA: H1 & H3 _________ European M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ North African/European E-M35 ___________ East African E-V13 ___________ European E-M78 & E-M81 ___ North African (E1b1b1b) R-V88 ___________ West African
So Clyde, you don't contribute to my thread but you steal my synopsis distort it and run off to Dienekes with it.
This is what I wrote not your bullshit distortion claiming M1 U6 and L3e5 as European to fit your uninformed outdated anti-Berber ideology.
My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's
* H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 ___ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African
regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Since you follow this thread you know, because you have been shown, that today's North African people of Berber background are primarily African per their uniparental DNA as witnessed in population genetics reports -- even by "Berber" scientists themselves -- and are not Europeans like you wish.
The sad part is your version of my synopsis presents it as Berber DNA when it is only the haplogroups most likely to be controversial in assignment and I accepted them as Bekada ranked them to demonstrate that even by Eurocentric measures the raw data still shows Berbers are primarily African.
They are what Rogers called a "fixed mulatto" type.
They are blackest south toward the Sahel and are whitest nearer the Mediterranean.
It is no secret that I do not accept the Berbers as Africans.
.
Yet they were...?
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Tuareg DNA is majority different not because they ain't west African, but that these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
Stop making up stuff
also some of their ancestry is straight haired Arab, look into the mtDNA of the Tuareg and stop getting emotional
So I'm making up stuff about doctored studies? So then why did we go from E3a, E3b, EM81 etc to E1b1b1b1b1b1b1b1b11b1b1b1b1b1b11b1ba etc.
Please don't tell me "Oh they did the same to other haplgroups also" Never heard of coverup...Shoot one guy then befriend the other yet your still an criminal.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Y chromosomal haplogroup profiles in north Africa aren't biologically informative, only historically. Not biologically informative in the sense that other AIMS do not corroborate the picture that the Berber Y chromosomal profile paints. So, for instance, we don't see a preponderance of East African specific ancestry in Berber populations in analyses that employ other (non Y chromosomal) AIMs. Historically informative in the sense their Y chromosomal profiles at least allow us to infer that Egyptian and/or Sudanese E-M81 males migrated there and somehow had such an impact that they artificially deflated Upper Palaeolithic Magrebi Y chromosomal predecessors, which in all likelihood included T-M184, as evinced by the Y chromosomal profiles of Tibbou and Fulani populations whose ancestors likely had contact with these pre-Berber speakers.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by KING: So I'm making up stuff about doctored studies? So then why did we go from E3a, E3b, EM81 etc to E1b1b1b1b1b1b1b1b11b1b1b1b1b1b11b1ba etc.
Please don't tell me "Oh they did the same to other haplgroups also" Never heard of coverup...Shoot one guy then befriend the other yet your still an criminal. [/QB]
Do you realize that's just the Y DNA?
Try looking at Tuareg maternal DNA, mtDNA
there's two parts to this you must realize, mommie and poppie
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
"Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: So, for instance, we don't see a preponderance of East African specific ancestry in Berber populations in analyses that employ other AIMs. Historically informative in the sense their Y chromosomal profiles at least allow us to infer that Egyptian and/or Sudanese E-M81 males migrated there and somehow managed to artificially deflate Upper Palaeolithic Magrebi Y chromosomal predecessors, which in all likelihood included T-M184, as evinced by the Y chromosomal profiles of Tibbou and Fulani populations who likely had contact with these pre-Berber speakers. [/QB]
Siwa berbers of Egypt are noted for their lack of M81
although the do have other E frequencies
Kujanova et al. (2009) found M81 in 28.6% (10 out of 35 men) in El-Hayez in the Western desert in Egypt
Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My Maghreb, Berber, and North African frequencies repects Bekada's * H1 & H3 _________ as European * M1 & U6 & L3e5 __ as North African * E-M35 ___________ as East African * E-V13 ___________ as European * E-M78 & E-M81 ___ as North African * R-V88 ___________ as West African regardless of any possible controversies about any of them since what I want to do is show how a variety of geneticists' reports support or refute the statement Berbers are not primarily African.
Out of Bekada's T2 target African groups * Algeria comes out half and half * Egypt is not primarily African * Mauritania - Western Sahara is primarily African * Morocco is primarily African * Tunisia is primarily African * Libya is primarily African See TS3 and TS7 for sample info and reports with their backgrounds.
These are the African vs non-African frequencies for maternal, paternal, and combined uniparentals of each target African group and views of them as * a Northern Africa superset * a Tamazgha subset, and * a Maghrebi core subset.
All three sets refute Berbers not primarliy African. All three sets support Berbers are primarily African.
This posting updates or replaces my comments on quoted Bekada non-raw data text statements made in earlier posts to this thread.
Wow...When did this come out and how recent is it? I never heard of this.
Again good job buddy.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Wow...When did this come out and how recent is it? I never heard of this.
Again good job buddy.
read the thread from the beginning the Bekada link is there.
The above chart was created by Tukuler based on Bakada. He consolidated "North Africa" and "Sub Saharan African" as simply "African" and added the term "uniparental"
To an extent it's fair but it's his format
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Highest frequencies are in Tunisia and Algeria, up to 100% in some cases
Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
The above chart was created by Tukuler based on Bakada. He consolidated "North Africa" and "Sub Saharan African" as simply "African" and added the term "uniparental". He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
Do you agree? From your last comment it seems maybe not
(top of previous page shows hg breakdown)
also U is funny in that U5 is considered Eurasian while U6 is considered North African
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
I don't know if that's what alTakruri meant to say. I didn't follow the entire thread but I get the impression that he was replying to your haplogroup based argument that, in terms of haplogroups composition, Berbers aren't primarily African. I agree with alTakruri's argument that, in terms of haplogroups, many Berber speakers could be primarily African. On the other hand, the literature has shown that haplogroups can be notoriously poor proxies for gauging ancestral components. Especially when you see populations with just a single haplogroup. If you know how haplogroup profiles emerge, you can't sit there and maintain that samples which are made up of one, two, or even three Y chromosomal haplogroups (e.g. many Maghrebi populations) provide reliable insight into populations structure.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
I don't know if that's what alTakruri meant to say. I didn't follow the entire thread but I get the impression that he was replying to your haplogroup based argument that, in terms of haplogroups composition, Berbers aren't primarily African. I agree with alTakruri's argument that, in terms of haplogroups, many Berber speakers could be primarily African. On the other hand, the literature has shown that haplogroups can be notoriously poor proxies for gauging ancestral components. Especially when you see populations with just a single haplogroup. If you know how haplogroup profiles emerge, you can't sit there and say populations with one or two, or even three Y chromosomal haplogroups (many Berber speakers) can provide insight into populations structure.
well then how do you go about determining if these berber groups are primarily African?
A lot of them look mulatto and the DNA supports that. I suppose "primarily African" means Africa "wins" if 51% or more of their ancestry is African
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^That's a whole 'nother can of worms which I'm discussing right now in the facebook group. Let's just say that recent research is showing that much of what gets assigned as "West Eurasian ancestry" in a lot of genome-wide studies is, in fact, African. There are sound scientific reasons for why this is happening, which no one seems to be discussing. What I can say is that this seems to be related to Sforza's observation that Europeans are 1/3 African and 2/3s East Asian. Until this is properly teased out, how much of the Maghrebi genome is African on top of the ~10-30% that typically gets assigned to them, remains an open question.
quote:Estimates of divergence times between European–African and East Asian–African populations are inconsistent with its simplest manifestation: a single dispersal from the continent followed by a split into Western and Eastern Eurasian branches. Rather, population divergence times are consistent with substantial ancient gene flow to the proto-European population after its divergence with proto-East Asians, suggesting distinct, early dispersals of modern H. sapiens from Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: "Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northwest African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: "Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northwest African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
.
Just finished reading the story of Siwa.
Those Siwa were smart to ask for 3 days to think it over. Also so the Siwans to you Dr. Winter are not truly African even though they carry ancient African genes?
How I feel about the Siwan is that The Creator protected them from invasion by Cambyses for an reason and I think its to keep there treasures intact for memory of how life was back in those days. The persians were bloody men who did many damaging things To Egypt when they came. Now the Arabs are doing there own nonsense. The past is something to learn from so we don't repeat it. I truly believe that there is COUNTLESS treasures in the Sahara that The Creator hid for an reason. whether its found or not, is up to brave people who buck the system and the locals who want to know there past.
All I wonder is why the Egyptian dead are so disrepected to lay in museums for all people to see them.
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: "Proto"-Berbers most likely came from Northeast Africa, because most studies I read seem to hint that.
But again Berbers are not one monolithic group, but they most likely started out as one.
Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northwest African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Moroccan Sahara, and migrated from there to the Fezzan.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html )
.
Just finished reading the story of Siwa.
Those Siwa were smart to ask for 3 days to think it over. Also so the Siwans to you Dr. Winter are not truly African even though they carry ancient African genes?
How I feel about the Siwan is that The Creator protected them from invasion by Cambyses for an reason and I think its to keep there treasures intact for memory of how life was back in those days. The persians were bloody men who did many damaging things To Egypt when they came. Now the Arabs are doing there own nonsense. The past is something to learn from so we don't repeat it. I truly believe that there is COUNTLESS treasures in the Sahara that The Creator hid for an reason. whether its found or not, is up to brave people who buck the system and the locals who want to know there past.
All I wonder is why the Egyptian dead are so disrepected to lay in museums for all people to see them.
As you can see from the Statement above the I am talking about the original Siwans. The Berbers are recent immigrants as noted by the Siwan Berbers themselves.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Hence, proving my point. When you see haplogroups reach fixation they have to be a product of artificial inflation (drift, founder effect or some other mechanism). There is no way that these people are 50% East African using AIMS that are less sensitive to artifical inflation (e.g. genome-wide analysis). Libya has several 100% E-M81 samples as well, BTW.
.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: ^That's a whole 'nother can of worms which I'm discussing right now in the facebook group. Let's just say that recent research is showing that much of what gets assigned as "West Eurasian ancestry" in a lot of genome-wide studies is, in fact, African. There are sound scientific reasons for why this is happening, which no one seems to be discussing. What I can say is that this seems to be related to Sforza's observation that Europeans are 1/3 African and 2/3s East Asian. Until this is properly teased out, how much of the Maghrebi genome is African on top of the ~10-30% that typically gets assigned to them, remains an open question.
You are making two points which lead to opposite conclusions. First you are saying the African component in a haplogroup frequency could be a product of artificial inflation "There is no way that these people are 50% East African " Then you are saying what gets assigned as "West Eurasian ancestry" in a lot of genome-wide studies is, in fact, African.
I suppose it's possible these two things could be occuring at the same time, however what ancestry in particular are you saying is called West Eurasian ancestry but is really African?
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Like I said before, the clowns are saying things that don't match with the data. E3b is African and therefore, it only got to Europe because Africans migrated there. Therefore, why aren't they calling those E3b carriers in Europe Africans then?
See the double standard? They can talk about Eurasian Genes in North Africa, but never ever do they talk about African genes in Europe. And specifically, they will take African lineages in Europe from African migrations and call it a Eurasian lineage.
That is all this nonsense boils down to. Europeans trying to apply theories to data that don't make sense. What makes sense is that E3b M81 got to North Africa from migrations within Africa. Then those genes got to Europe from Africans migrating to Europe. No back migration necessary. They know this is the most logical scenario but then that wouldn't allow them to keep pretending that Eurasians somehow populated North Africa in the ancient past and brought in their language and culture. All of which is totally and completely false. And they know it. Some scholars will simply keep reiterating the same nonsense over and over no matter if the data supports it or not because they have an agenda.
For example:
quote: lthough the frequency distribution of E-M34 could suggest that eastern Africa was the place in which the haplogroup arose, two observations point to a Near Eastern origin: (1) Within eastern Africa, the haplogroup appears to be restricted to Ethiopia, since it has not been observed in either neighboring Somalia or Kenya (present study) or Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000). By contrast, E-M34 chromosomes have been found in a large majority of the populations from the Near East so far analyzed (Underhill et al. 2000; Cinnioğlu et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study). (2) E-M34 chromosomes from Ethiopia show lower variances than those from the Near East and appear closely related in the E-M34 network (fig. 2D). If our interpretation is correct, E-M34 chromosomes could have been introduced into Ethiopia from the Near East. The high frequency of E-M34 observed for some of the Ethiopian populations could be the consequence of subsequent genetic drift, which can also explain the lower frequencies (2.3% [Underhill et al. 2000] and 4.0% [Semino et al. 2002]) reported for two large independent samples of Ethiopians. From the Near East, E-M34 chromosomes could also have been introduced into Europe, possibly by Neolithic farmers, but the paucity of E-M34 chromosomes in southeastern Europe (Semino et al. 2004 [in this issue]; present study) weakens this hypothesis. Indeed, as for E-M78δ chromosomes, introduction of E-M34 from Africa directly to southern-central Europe cannot be excluded at the present.
Which shows clearly how they are grasping at straws and trying to put E3 M84 into some "Asian" context when the lineage is obviously African. Hence the contradictions and the ease with which they can arbitrarily assign origins to lineages which don't make sense.
Even with that, there are some gems:
quote: The gradual termination of the African Humid Period started ~6,000 ya establishing today's North Africa desert ecosystem ~2,700 ya[65]. The desiccation of the Sahara accompanied by large-scale dust mobilization from 4,300 ya could have limited population spread and gene flow in the region, hypothetically triggering populations' divergence and structure. Our Bayesian analysis of population splits suggest North African populations started splitting ~2,800 ya (95%CI = 1,300–4,600 ya). Egypt appears to have split first from North Africa with dates coinciding with the kingdom decline in power and conquests by Assyrians and Persians. Our results from both uniparental and autosomal markers show that today's Egyptians are genetically closer to Eurasians than to other North Africans, probably a consequence of Egypt's and the Middle East's long established interaction through conquests and trades. Tuareg split next from North Africans around 1,900 ya, followed by the remaining North Africans splitting around 1,000–1,300 ya which coincide with the Islamic expansion arriving to North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: why aren't they calling those E3b carriers in Europe Africans then?
These Pasiegos from Cantabria are more North African than most Sub Saharans
xyyman regards them as Negro
note the swag of their sitting positions
also check the guy on the right, he's upping hov with the roc diamond symbol (also same head tilt) Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] Like I said before, the clowns are saying things that don't match with the data. E3b is African and therefore, it only got to Europe because Africans migrated there. Therefore, why aren't they calling those E3b carriers in Europe Africans then?
See the double standard? They can talk about Eurasian Genes in North Africa, but never ever do they talk about African genes in Europe. And specifically, they will take African lineages in Europe from African migrations and call it a Eurasian lineage.
That is all this nonsense boils down to. Europeans trying to apply theories to data that don't make sense. What makes sense is that E3b M81 got to North Africa from migrations within Africa. Then those genes got to Europe from Africans migrating to Europe. No back migration necessary. They know this is the most logical scenario but then that wouldn't allow them to keep pretending that Eurasians somehow populated North Africa in the ancient past and brought in their language and culture. All of which is totally and completely false. And they know it. Some scholars will simply keep reiterating the same nonsense over and over no matter if the data supports it or not because they have an agenda.
I can tell you are not reading the articles on Eurasian back migration into North Africa from prehistoric remains dating to 12 Kya +
They are not based on saying E3b is Eurasian. They are not based on paternal Y-DNA
They are based on maternal mtDNA from prehistoric remains.
Posts: 42939 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: OK
So why not write all about that here in my thread?
Clyde please I want this thread to be a compendium on the statement "Berbers are primarily not African;" pro, con, other.
How about making a one stop shop for all that info here, here and now in the present, here in this thread, another nest should those threads disappear, as threads are known to do around here time to time.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by KING:
... these DNA clowns took dna from the lightest and straightest haired Tuareg to say they are linked with YOURos.
In study after study of uniparental or autosomal DNA despite all the bias inherit in population genetics, as finely outlined by Cardova, the peoples sampled as "Berbers" by language or descent (from Imazighen formerly speaking a Tamazight) show majority African biology which for the most part is local though also including "SSA" haplogroups, haplotypes, etc.
======================= SIDEBAR: Which one is really SSA
* sub - Sahara Africa * supra - Sahara Africa * straight up - Sahara Africa =============================
Lioness' pic spam is meaningless and misleading in assuming only black or dark brown skinned Maliens as native and a black skinned Tuareg supposedly looking like "her" native Maliens when their facial features are unalike.
"She" then goes on to show more Tuareg pics. Are they, or even her black skinned Tuareg, pics of Maliens?
Kel Tamasheq have multiple origins. "She' can't just up and post any Tuareg from just anywhere and claim they're representative of Malien or Burkinabe Tuareg.
From the earliest times on record Mali's population included "Berber," Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan speakers. Neither is more native Malien than the other.
Then there's "her" trash talk about Tuareg maternal "straight haired Arab" ancestry whereas Pereira 2010's 39% non-L/M1 Taureg mtDNA is 94% H1 H3 & V. Pereira does not even mention any Arab mtDNA.
In fact, Pereira comments on missing "Arab" lineages in Taureg despite their appearance among other northern Africans.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: He is using this data to prove that most of these berbers groups are primarily African.
I don't know if that's what alTakruri meant to say. I didn't follow the entire thread but I get the impression that he was replying to your haplogroup based argument that, in terms of haplogroups composition, Berbers aren't primarily African. I agree with alTakruri's argument that, in terms of haplogroups, many Berber speakers could be primarily African. On the other hand, the literature has shown that haplogroups can be notoriously poor proxies for gauging ancestral components. Especially when you see populations with just a single haplogroup. If you know how haplogroup profiles emerge, you can't sit there and maintain that samples which are made up of one, two, or even three Y chromosomal haplogroups (e.g. many Maghrebi populations) provide reliable insight into populations structure.
.
Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
But this is not the case with the Imazighen.
I prematurely posted two autosomal skylines that clearly display both local African and SSA bands. Eventually, I will also compare and contrast African vs EurAsian autosome frequencies against uniparental frequencies to see how well or not they correlate.
Lyin' Ass is well known to spin a yarn than cut & paste my actual words. But Snakey is as Snakey does. Regulars know the drill but Newbies beware.
She gave Kabyle uniparental frequencies in post 462 but Arredi 2004 on North Africa not only has no such nrY data but is too early to know any such nomenclature as E1b1b1c etc. The word Kabyle does not even appear in that study. It's a lie snakily poisoning gullible folks unaware of "her" underhandedness.
Anyway, my position is spelled out in the OP and I'm presenting analysis of raw data that can be used to confirm or refute the premise Berbers are primarily not African.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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The word Kabyle does not even appear in that study.
stop misleading people Kabyle are listed as in the Arredi as Tizi Ouzou, see table
Tizi Ouzou a city in north central Algeria. It is the capital and largest city of Tizi Ouzou Province. It is the second largest city in terms of population in the Kabylie region
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
Right. When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47% African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes I once posted a chart exampling that deep rooting's not necessarily indicative of overall genome. It showed the scenario where a Black American could by haplogroup be a mustee (American for mestizo) of 4th generation direct Skins maternity and 4th generation direct Euro paternity. All his 14 other 4th generation African ancestry only shows in recombinational autosomes. Overall they make him what he is.
Right. When non-African is defined as:
"Ancestry that arrived in Eurasia AFTER the OOA populations left Africa"
instead of:
"Everything that doesn't resemble the ancestry carried by West and Central African proxy samples"
You can get analysis that looks like this, where north Africans are more or less 50% African, and West Eurasians ~25-47 African:
So, why aren't researchers universally adopting this much more scientifically accurate method? Why do they KNOWINGLY keep using dubious proxy samples to define what constitutes African ancestry when they can use straight forward cut off points to distinguish between African and non-African ancestry? They know this cannot be viable because they themselves admit there was sub-structure in deep time in n.Africa and e.Africa before and after OOA, which may have never reached the African interior, but which is African nonetheless.
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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b1b1b1b1ba nonsense.
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