posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
You just made three useless posts, disrupting the thread by posting three of my posts in their entirety over again instead of learning to edit.

Read the thread , you are way to funny, I already posted highest frequencies of M81

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa#cite_note-3

Y-DNA haplogroups by populations of North Africa


highest E-M81 frequencies


Chenini–Douiret Berbers, 100%

Tunisia/Jradou Berbers- 100%

Tunisia/Bou Saa- 92.5%

Tunisia/Bou Omrane 87.5

Algeria/Mozabites- 86.6%

___________________________


Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. (2011)

Dugoujon et al. (2009)[

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Saharawis 75.86%

Semino 2004

-and don't give me any prose quotes, we have the numbers

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You are posting from Wikipedia, you dumbass.


Such retard it's beyond anything.

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asshole, it's from wikipedia with primarily article refereces listed and in my post

idiot because an article is quoted in wikipedia does not void the article becasue it's in wikipedia, I warned you already about being stupid, you are a troll trying to instigate hostility just like Charlie observed

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The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.

In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).

First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.

This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.

Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.

A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.

How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.

- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.

- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.

This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Tukuler you need to train Troll to edit.
He posts for long posts of mine 4 in a row , that have already been read in order to make one or two sentence comments. This is what makes your thread or anybody else thread unpelasant to read, because he does this all the time. I don't need a hype man.
Charlie Bass already scolded him about following me around like a puppy dog, in knee jerk mode, reacting to my every last word.

On the other hand that may have been the thing you were waiting for, back up, LOL

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For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.

Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.

The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.

The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.

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Sourced by: Time Magazine.


http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,865145,00.html





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5bkNlGg0H0

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Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).


[...]


Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

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The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.

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This site has been called Gobero, after the local Tuareg name for the area. About 10,000 years ago (7700–6200 B.C.E.), Gobero was a much less arid environment than it is now. In fact, it was actually a rather humid lake side hometown of sorts for a group of hunter-fisher-gatherers who not only lived their but also buried their dead there. How do we know they were fishing? Well, remains of large nile perch and harpoons were found dating to this time period.

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The older occupants have craniofacial dimensions that demonstrate similarities with mid-Holocene occupants of the southern Sahara and Late Pleistocene to early Holocene inhabitants of the Maghreb.

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These early occupants abandon the area under arid conditions and, when humid conditions return ~4600 B.C.E., are replaced by a more gracile people with elaborated grave goods including animal bone and ivory ornaments.

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Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero with a skeletally robust, trans-Saharan assemblage of Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene human populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.

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Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

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Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb (see cluster in Figure 6). The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

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Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
You and the author completely forgot about Saami people being enslaved by the Vikings, and taken to Northwest Africa. This included many Central Europeans as well. Who historically relate to the Saami.


What a bummer.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
look at him, he's going into to his Gobero/Muhuggia mega file,read the shyt like 50 times
mass info dump, thread disabled

Ish Geboring aka, Info Dump

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


So until that time I'll keep reposting and responding to you with these same studies. As a rebuttal.

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Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


So until that time I'll keep reposting and responding to you with these same studies. As a rebuttal.

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^^^ whatever I do , he does

Troll, keep posting "FUNNY" in capital letters

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Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18],[26],[27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb:

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*Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

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--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)(2008)


For your comparison:

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Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).


[...]


Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
You and the author completely forgot about Saami people being enslaved by the Vikings, and taken to Northwest Africa. This included many Central Europeans as well. Who historically relate to the Saami.


What a bummer.

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Ok so the Siwi are part Lapp.
U5b

the slaves brought to Africa story sounds like bullcrap, what's your flimsy source on that?

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ no source




^^^ see this ? Troll posts it in every thread. He's posted it over 50 times

It;s called OCD

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Yes, I've posted this every time where and when you posted back migration into Africa. And what it shows is migration from the South into North by indigenous African people.


And since you claimed to have seen it in every thread, why you still need the source or link?

See that's how dumb you are! Since I have posted the link many times before, over 50 times as you claim, shows you're trolling the forum and this thread without being able to back up what you claim in physical evidence.



What a bummer!




All I do now is re-slap you in the face. Having FUN.


And the fact remains that you still haven't been able to post any valid archeology and anthropology back migration to Africa, it all shows migration out if Africa by small pockets of people.


The Middle Holocene climatic transition

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The Middle Holocene, and more precisely the period from around 6400 BP and 5000 BP, was a period of profound environmental change, during which the global climate underwent a systematic reorganisation as the warm, humid post-glacial climate of the Early Holocene gave way to a climatic configuration broadly similar to that of today (Brooks, 2010; Mayewski et al., 2004). The most prominent manifestations of this transition were a cooling at middle and high latitudes and high altitudes (Thompson et al., 2006), a transition from relatively humid to arid conditions in the NHST (Brooks, 2006, 2010; deMenocal et al., 2000) and the establishment of a regular El Niño after a multimillennial period during which is was rare or absent (Sandweiss et al., 2007).
This “Middle Holocene Climatic Transition” (MHCT) represented a stepwise acceleration of climatic trends that had commenced in the 9th millennium BP in some regions (Jung et al., 2004), and entailed a long-term shift towards cooler and more arid conditions, punctuated by episodes of abrupt climatic change. Around 6400–6300 BP, palaeo-environmental evidence indicates abrupt lake recessions and increased aridity in northern Africa, western Asia, South Asia and northern China, and the advance of glaciers in Europe and elsewhere (Damnati, 2000; Enzel et al., 1999; Jung et al., 2004; Linstädter & Kröpelin, 2004; Mayewski et al., 2004; Zhang et al., 2000).


Ocean records suggest a cold-arid episode around 5900 BP (Bond et al., 1997), followed in the Sahara by an abrupt shift to aridity around 5800–5700 BP, evident in terrestrial records from the Libyan central Sahara and marine records from the Eastern Tropical Atlantic (Cremaschi, 2002; di Lernia, 2002; deMenocal et al., 2000). From about 5800–5700 BP to 5200–5000 BP, aridification intensified in the Sahara (deMenocal et al., 2000), South Asia (Enzel et al., 1999), north-central China (Zhang et al., 2000; Xiao et al., 2004) and the Arabian Peninsula (Parker et al., 2006). Over the same period, drought conditions prevailed in the Eastern Medi- terranean (Bar-Matthews & Ayalon, 2011), the Zagros Mountains of Iran (Stevens et al., 2006) and County Mayo in Ireland (Caseldine et al., 2005), while river flow into the Cariaco Basin of northern South America decreased (Haug et al., 2001). An abrupt cold-arid epi- sode around 5200 BP is evident in environmental records from Europe, Africa, western Asia, China and South America, (Caseldine et al., 2005; Gasse, 2002; Magny & Haas, 2004; Parker et al., 2006; Thompson et al., 1995).
The above evidence indicates that the MHCT was associated with a weakening of monsoon systems across the globe, and the southward retreat of monsoon rains in the NHST (Lézine, 2009). However, these changes coin- cided with climatic reorganisation outside of the global monsoon belt, as indicated by the onset of El Niño and evidence of large changes in climate at middle and high latitudes. The ultimate driving force behind these changes was a decline in the intensity of summer solar radiation outside the tropics, resulting from long-term changes in the angle of the Earth’s axis of rotation relative to its orbital plane. This was translated into abrupt changes in climate by non-linear feedback processes within the climate system (Brooks, 2004; deMenocal et al., 2000; Kukla & Gavin, 2004).


[...]


In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).

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posted                      

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Originally posted by xyyman:
@TP. I doing more anthropological research in West Africa. Got anything on this:

Quote: Interestingly, the Mbo live less than 800 km away from a Nigerian site known as Iwo Eleru, where human skeletal remains with both archaic and modern features were found and dated to ~13 kya.47 Further


Read more: http://egyptsearchreloaded.proboards.com/thread/1548/oldest-african-man-a00-haplogroup#ixzz2qYhi2HEV

Apparently a similar skeleton was found in the Congo.

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^Trollkillah you have hit the nail on the head, Eurocentrist use genetics to support Eurocentrism because the dating of this or that haplogroup is based on conjecture via statistical models. As a result, the ancient DNA, fails to support the statistical models they have proposed for the alledged back migrations.

Archaeological dating on the otherhand, has better dating methods which have been supported by carbon dating methods. This along with, linguistics, can provide reliable dating of ancient events.

the population genetic statistical models are unreliable because they project amh in Europe when the region was settled by Neanderthals. Because Europe was not occuipied by amh when the so called European haplogroups alledgedly ,originated and migrated back into Africa, these haplogroups had to have originated in Africa and taken into Europe.

.

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
^Trollkillah you have hit the nail on the head, Eurocentrist use genetics to support Eurocentrism because the dating of this or that haplogroup is based on conjecture via statistical models. As a result, the ancient DNA, fails to support the statistical models they have proposed for the alledged back migrations.

Archaeological dating on the otherhand, has better dating methods which have been supported by carbon dating methods. This along with, linguistics, can provide reliable dating of ancient events.

the population genetic statistical models are unreliable because they project amh in Europe when the region was settled by Neanderthals. Because Europe was not occuipied by amh when the so called European haplogroups alledgedly ,originated and migrated back into Africa, these haplogroups had to have originated in Africa and taken into Europe.

.

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Troll Partol the theme of the thread is are the berbers of today, all the groups together , on average primarily African?

what is your opinion?

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Troll Partol the theme of the thread is are the berbers of today, all the groups together , on average primarily African?

what is your opinion?

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You have asked me this 50 times and I have responded to you 49 times already.


I will repeat it once more. The Tamazigh see themselves as indigenous people of Africa. They do know that invasions have taken place by foreign people to Africa.


The Tamazights origin is from the South, as they moved up to the North. Primarily a northwest Africa. This is what archeology, anthropology and linguistics show.


In recent times the Tamazight came in contact with foreign people due to the location. This is what genetics shows. What genetics archeology and anthropology also shows is that small pockets of Africans migrated out of Africa, into Southern Europe. Later on the Levant and the oldest route the Horn of Africa-Yemen.


There no evidence of back migrations during the Neolithic etc...

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Asmahan Bekada 2013

Rosa Fregel,
Vicente M. Cabrera,
José M. Larruga,
José Pestano,
Soraya Benhamamouch,
Ana M. González mail


Abstract

North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident.


, the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. [/b]

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Asmahan Bekada 2013

Rosa Fregel,
Vicente M. Cabrera,
José M. Larruga,
José Pestano,
Soraya Benhamamouch,
Ana M. González mail


Abstract

North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident.


, the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. [/b]

---

I am going as you again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?


Where where where?

---

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
If Paleolithic Eurasians went to the Maghreb and lived there 10,000 years it might be irrelevant because after the drying of the Sahara people left the region.
However if they were there for 10,000 years they may have taken on some level of adapation

---

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?

---

Taforalt

---

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
What is sure is that the modern Berber population is not representative of the very ancient population (around 10 000 years ago) that lived in the Maghreb.

I already explained why before in this thread. Modern Berbers are the product of a "recent" admixture of E-M81 carriers from East Africa and ancient MtDNA from Europe. Without considering more recent admixture... E-M81 is a pretty recent lineages in North Africa. They also don't have lot of E-M215 diversity (so they can't have been there for a long time or they were the product of a "recent" drastic bottleneck situation).

Wikipedia says E-M81 originated in North Africa like 5,600 years ago.

Before the admixture of E-M81 carriers with MtDNA HUV carriers, the population genetic structure of Berber was completely different.

I say "recent", but it's still 5,600 years ago. It's all relative. [/QB]

---

12.000 Bp mtDna, Morocco >

Eurasiatic Component

H, U, JT, V: 90.5%

________________

North African Component

U6: 9.5 %


________________________________________

http:// www.pasteur.fr/~tekaia/BCGA/TALKS/Rym_Kefi.ppt


ANTHROPOLOGIE
International Journal of Human Diversity and Evolution
Coverage: 1923-1941 (Vols. I-XIX) & 1962-2013 (Vols. 1-51)
ISSN 0323-1119

Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA.


Dr Rym KEFI and Dr Eliane BERAUD-COLOMB. U600 INSERM-FRE2059 CNRS Laboratoire d'Immunologie, Hôpital de Sainte-Marguerite- Marseille- France.

II- Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco).

Abstract
The population exhumed from the archaeological site of Taforalt in Morocco (12,000 years BP) is a valuable source of information toward a better knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region and provides a revolutionary way to specify the origin of Ibero-Maurusian populations. Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt.The HVS1 fragment of the mitochondrial DNA control region was PCR-amplified and directly sequenced. Mitochondrial diversity in Taforalt shows the absence of sub-Saharan haplogroups suggesting that Ibero-Maurusian individuals had not originated in sub-Saharan region. Our results reveal a probable local evolution of Taforalt population and a genetic continuity in North Africa.

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


Kefi was hell bent on denying
any African contribution to
Maurusian industry and people
except local littoral Maghreb. [/QB]

---

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Kefi's study is in French
only. Have you read it?

---

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
Asmahan Bekada 2013

Rosa Fregel,
Vicente M. Cabrera,
José M. Larruga,
José Pestano,
Soraya Benhamamouch,
Ana M. González mail


Abstract

North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA] and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident.


, the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. [/b]

---

I am going as you again where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?


Where where where?

---

Taforalt

---

quote:

---

In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.

---

quote:

---

Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

---

--Paul C. Sereno

Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change

Published: August 14, 2008DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0002995


(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)


WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.





Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.

---

-- Arensburg et al. 1995

---

this is all you have.

Other scientists had noticed robusticity
This 1995 paper says "possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time."

It sounds like something somebody might say about a mulatto. sombody who had African Y DNA.
They don't even say "possibly sub Saharan African."
They say "influences".

Yet their mtDNA is European/Eurasian



.


And if we take it to modern Maghrebians we find the same primary maternal haplogroups


.




So you have people part African and part Eurasian.
You have the DNA in front of your face 12,000 Bp

You simply ignore the DNA because you don't like the idea of Europeans in Africa at that time. It offends you

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time.

---

-- Arensburg et al. 1995

---

this is all you have.

Other scientists had noticed robusticity
This 1995 paper says "possible influences from sub Saharan Africa at that time."

It sounds like something somebody might say about a mulatto. sombody who had African Y DNA.
They don't even say "possibly sub Saharan African."
They say "influences".

Yet their mtDNA is European/Eurasian


So you have people part African and part Eurasian.
You have the DNA in front of your face 12,000 Bp

You simply ignore the DNA because you don't like the idea of Europeans in Africa at that time. It offends you

---

quote:

---

Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together, whereas Late Pleistocene Aterians (Ater) and the mid-Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-m) are striking outliers. Axes are scaled by the square root of the corresponding eigenvalue for the principal component. Abbreviations: Ater, Aterian; EMC, eastern Maghreb Capsian; EMI, eastern Maghreb Iberomaurusian; Gob-e, Gobero early Holocene; Gob-m, Gobero mid-Holocene; Mali, Hassi-el-Abiod, Mali; Maur, Mauritania; WMC, western Maghreb Capsian; WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.

---

--Paul C. Sereno

Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change

Published: August 14, 2008DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0002995


(doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g006)


(NR. 2) WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.





Figure 6. Principal components analysis of craniofacial dimensions among Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene populations from the Maghreb and southern Sahara.


(NR. 2) WMI, western Maghreb Iberomaurusian.





So my question is again, where is your evidence of physical remains of these supposed Eurasians in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa? And robust doesn't mean one can't be tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio,


All you've posted was some DNA sequences and frequencies.
The physical remains are clustered with indigenous people from the South of the Sahara. Face this fact!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

http://www.academia.edu/677017/Human_Skeletal_Remains_Fazzan_Libya

Wow. Just wow. Have we stumbled upon the elusive Neolithic E-M81 carrying Proto-Berber speakers?

---

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

From 1951 to 1955 the Abb6 J. Roche excavated the Mouillian layer in Taforalt Cave, 55 km. northwest of Oujda, Morocco. From it he removed 122 skeletons which Mlle. Ferembach has studied in impressive detail, describing every bone except the hyoid which, she states, has no racial significance. These skeletons represent a single local population living there between about 10,000 B.C. and 8,500 B.C. (C-14),some 50 generations. About 700 km. (470 mi.) away is Afalou bou Rhummel, an Algerian cave with an equally large collection. We now know more about the Mouillians than about anyone else in Africa except the Ancient Egyptians. About their predecessors we knew very little until the discovery of two skulls at Jebel Ighoud, Morocco, too late for her book.


The Taforalt folk were big and bony except for one dwarf. The men averaged 5’73” in stature (174cm.), the women 5’ 4” (162 cm.). They had large, craggy skulls, short, broad faces, broad noses rising deep below glabella, and massive jaws. Their trunks were not long, but the legs and forearms were, review of her book in Science, 8 May, 1964). Personally, I wish she had seen the Jebel Ighoud skulls before writing because, in my opinion, insofar as the Beni Taforalt differ from the Upper Paleolithic Europeans they do so mainly in the direction of their indigenous predecessors.

She points out that this was an inbred local population, with a 75 percent incidence of spina bifida and other sacral anomalies, many wormian bones, and a high infant mortality. Two-thirds of them died during their first two years of life. Of the adults, only two may have lived past 40. Jean nastugue shows that very few bones were pathological except for arthritis, and Marie-Jeanne Poitrat-Targloma that a t least 10 percent of the teeth show calcification trouble, presumably during the weaning crisis.

This book is a model of meticulous study of a most interesting prehistoric population for which the author and her colleagues are to be heartily congratulated. I know of nothing comparable in the literature of physical anthropology.

---

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Of the five Gamble's Cave skeletons, only two could be reconstructed, and this job was
carried out in England after the material had been sent there from East Africa. Results were
certainly far from perfect, owing to warping and crushing of the original bone, and further
insult was to follow. The Royal College of Surgeons in London and the skeletal collections
housed there received heavy bomb damage during World War II. So by the time that the
skulls were transferred to the British Museum (Natural History) in 1948, they were scarcely
in mint condition. Skull number 4 is the less well preserved of the two, and all of the base as well as a substantial portion of the facial skeleton are present only in plaster. Distortion renders this specimen quite unfit for measurement. Number 5 also lacks much of the skull base, and the missing parts have been heavily reconstructed. Although these skulls have been called non-Negro in morphology, the evidence is certainly far from clear cut, and any such diagnosis is questionable by virtue of the state of the material alone.

---

quote:

---

The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery...


The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions...


From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia.

---

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.

---

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


So my question is again, where is your evidence of physical remains of these supposed Eurasians in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa? And robust doesn't mean one can't be tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio,

---

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


So my question is again, where is your evidence of physical remains of these supposed Eurasians in Paleolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic Africa? And robust doesn't mean one can't be tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratio,

---

Your mentality is of an either/or situation, you think either they were African or they were European

As with berbers of today, the DNA which you choose to ignore, indicates the western Maghreb Iberomaurusians were part African and part European.

The morphology is reflective of this and racial estimation of skeletal remains is limited and further obscured by cases of people with mixed ancestry.

Think if people in the future found the skeleton of Barak Obama but didn't know who he was. Some might conclude it's an African person,
yet genteically Barack Obama is largely European on his mother side.

This is where DNA comes in.
Taforalt skeletons were analyzed. They have several haplogroups which are believed to have originated outside of Africa.
So as this sheds some light on the matter, you who often use genetic information to tryt to prove arguments all of the sudden completely disregard it when you don't personally like the results. that's bias.

The contemprary berbers have similar DNA profiles.
If you look the Taforalts the have several Eurasian haplogroups.
Somebody might try to argue over one. But there are more than just one and these are found in the specimens dating 12,000 Bp.
This indcates at this time there were Eurasians in North Africa mixing with the locals.
the Iberomaurusian period is 10,000 years and there are also likely changes within sub divisions of that time period.

Instead of dealing with the DNA you go looking for morphological information, simply because you personally like the result better. And looking at the information, opinion of particular researhers, it is not even that firm words like "influenced by" or "suggests" are used

---

quote:

---

Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Migrations into India “did occur, but rarely from western Eurasian populations.” There are low frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern India. Thus, the ‘caucasoid’ features of south Asians may best be considered ‘pre-caucasoid’— that is, part of a diverse north or north-east African gene pool that yielded separate origins for western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago.

---

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ nice charts representing 10% of maternal Taforalt DNA.

figures if you posts a lot of charts, maybe the number of charts will change the balance of the mtDNA, I put up a chart indicating all of the MtDna including the L, he pretends the rest of it disppeared

And the title of the article is

The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa

we are not dealing with the first dipersals we are dealing with 12,000 kya and later
or if M81 is the important Y clade, 5600 years ago .

It goes like this

Suppose you are looking at an ethnic group and they have several haplogroups,

Pick out the haplogroups that you like. Then go find a bunch of charts of that haplogroup post them up

Then somebody reading the thread wow, look at all that, they must have had a lot of that haplogroup , look at all the charts.
yet no context of the whole mtDNA is given.

Y DNA? I gave links earlier in the thread as well as posting the high M81 frequencies

Show everything and then deal with the situation instead of the cherry pick

---

quote:

---

Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with
their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."


Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred
expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the
flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b
and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.

---

--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.

Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
You are as stupid as you are amusing.


Speaking of cherry picking. You first posted about the inhabitation of 12Kya. I then post sources on Africans inhabiting the region, as I posted from different discipline. Then to you made up stupid excuses, as you do so often.

---

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
You are as stupid as you are amusing.


Speaking of cherry picking. You first posted about the inhabitation of 12Kya. I then post sources on Africans inhabiting the region, as I posted from different discipline. Then to you made up stupid excuses, as you do so often.

---

You are stupid. What you posted did not contradict what I posted.
You don't like the DNA so you ran off to another discipline.
Ok fine, what you continue to not understand is that Africans were inhabiting the region as well as Europeans and mixing.
So the fact that you show data that Africans were inhabiting the region does not means non-Africans were not also inhabiting the same region, the Mt and Y tell the story, deal with it

You see , in this world not everything is black or white

---

quote:

---

No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe do not follow similar patterns, and their sub- clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with
their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."

[...]

Some M1 and U6 sub-clades could be linked with certain events. For example, U6a1 and M1b, with their coalescent ages of ~20,000-22,000 years ago and earliest inferred expansion in northwest Africa, could coincide with the flourishing of the Iberomaurusian industry, whilst U6b and M1b1 appeared at the time of the Capsian culture.

---

quote:

---

Although Haplogroup M differentiated
soon after the out of Africa exit and it is
widely distributed in Asia (east Asia and
India) and Oceania, there is an
interesting exception for one of its more
than 40 sub-clades: M1.. Indeed this
lineage is mainly limited to the African
continent with peaks in the Horn of
Africa."

---

quote:

---

“..the M1 presence in the Arabian
peninsula signals a predominant East
African influence since the Neolithic
onwards.“

---

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.

Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.

---

Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.

Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.

---

You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry

---

Where is it, why is it clustered with indigenous remains from South of the Sahara? Now it is long ago before 10.000 Kya.

Just the other minute you complained about me post sources form 12Kya.


I am waiting....

quote:

---

The coding regions transitions are likely to change relatively slower than those of hypervariable segments, and hence, likely to remain intact within a clade. To assist in determining which clade to place a monophyletic unit, key coding region transitions have to be identified. In the case of M1, we were told:

We found 489C (Table 3) in all Indian and eastern-African haplogroup M mtDNAs analysed, but not in the non-M haplogroup controls, including 20 Africans representing all African main lineages (6 L1, 4 L2, 10 L3) and 11 Asians.

These findings, and the lack of positive evidence (given the RFLP status) that the 10400 C->T transition defining M has happened more than once, suggest that it has a single common origin, but do not resolve its geographic origin. Analysis of position 10873 (the MnlI RFLP) revealed that all the M molecules (eastern African, Asian and those sporadically found in our population surveys) were 10873C (Table 3). As for the non-M mtDNAs, the ancient L1 and the L2 African-specific lineages5, as well as most L3 African mtDNAs, also carry 10873C.

Conversely, all non-M mtDNAs of non-African origin analysed so far carry 10873T. These data indicate that the **transition 10400 C-->T, which defines haplogroup M**, arose on an African background characterized by the ancestral state 10873C, which is also present in four primate (common and pygmy chimps, gorilla and orangutan) mtDNA sequences.

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.

Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.

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You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry

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Where is it, why is it clustered with indigenous remains from South of the Sahara?


I am waiting....

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Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged |