quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor: I am waiting for you to post evidence physical remains of Eurasian presence during the Paleolithic, Holocene , Mesolithic Neolithic.
Stop waisting my time with all other nonsense.
You are very thick skulled. The physical remains at Taforalt are of mixed ancestry
Where is it, why is it clustered with indigenous remains from South of the Sahara?
I am waiting....
because that is how these mixed ancestry skeletons look to some people.
So on what do you base this, that Eurasian skeletons look mixed to some people?
quote:What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "
---Trenton Holliday (2000) Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia. American Anthropologist. New Series, Vol. 102, No. 1, 54-68
quote: Migration within a larger time framework took place ca. 15,000--18,000 BP, when the first Asian populations crossed the Bering Strait, ultimately founding the modern Amerindian population. Despite having as much as 18,000 years of selection in environments as diverse as those found in the Old World, body mass and proportion clines in the Americas are less steep than those in the Old World (Newman, 1953; Roberts, 1978). In fact, as Hulse (1960) pointed out, Amerindians, even in the tropics, tend to possess some ''arctic'' adaptations. Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992). This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."
-- Holliday T.(1997). Body proportions in Late Pleistocene Europe and modern human origins. Jrnl Hum Evo. 32:423-447
quote:Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europeans should not exhibit tropically-adapted limb proportions, since, even assuming replacement, their ancestors had experienced cold stress in glacial Europe for at least 12 millennia. [...] Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. [...] The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe.
--Holliday TW J Hum Evol. 1999 May;36(5):549-66. Brachial and crural indices of European late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Yup. You got that right. And that's your problem.
Up until this very day,
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Notice up you still haven't been able to show archeological and anthropological data on so called Eurasian presence in Africa during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic. It's funny!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb.
I see 9.5% U6 which is not nothing.
haven't read the article but I did skim the powerpoint As per this one chart, it's mtDNA therefore anybody hell bent denying any African contribution would also have to deny that Y DNA analysis also showed minimal African contribution
. Shut up fool.
"local littoral Maghreb" covered U6 so what are you squawking about? Just showing your low comprehension level or your hi misconstruant abilities.
So my assessment remains unfalsified: "Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb."
You haven't read the study or even closely looked at the PPT.
One of the things she plainly proposed was to see if SSA had anything to do w/Maurusian.
Kefi quite clearly and w/o any ambiguity strikes off what she calls sub-Sudanese in the peopling of Maurusian.
To do that she ignores any L haplogroup possibilities and what's worse for the one sample she couldn't find a non-SSA hg (Taf VIII) she blithely ignores as if no one can see it too is a part of Maurusian peopling.
Again, do the math, no joke. Kefi's math doesn't add up. I checked Kefi's haplotypes against Watson's sequences back when I first did this.
Now we have several full sequence mtDNA databases free at our fingertips.
Using current full sequences shows Kefi's hg assignments are fortuitous. I may or may not update my original results. Doesn't matter. Kefi set out to deny any "sub-Sudanese" (her terminology) Maurusian peopling and to do so she even overlooks her own admitted L3/M/N sample.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
According to the lioness this is actually a Eurasian remain.
quote: The ruins were discovered deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a prehistoric town dating back 15,000 years have been discovered in the Moroccan-administered territory of Western Sahara.
The Moroccan state media on Thursday said a team of scientists stumbled across the sand-covered ruins of the town Arghilas, deep in the desert of Western Sahara.
The remains of a place of worship, houses and a necropolis, as well as columns and rock engravings depicting animals, were found at the site near the northeastern town of Aousserd.
Significant find
The isolated area is known to be rich in prehistoric rock engravings, but experts said the discovery could be significant if proven that the ruins were of Berber origin as this civilisation is believed to date back only about 9000 years.
"It appears that scientists have come up with the 15,000-year estimate judging by the style of engravings and the theme of the drawings," Mustafa Ouachi, a Rabat-based Berber historian said.
Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa before Arabs came to spread Islam in the seventh century.
The population of Western Sahara, seized by Morocco in 1975 when former colonial power Spain pulled out, is mostly of Berber and Arab descent.
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphčre, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocčnes du Sahara occidental. Thčse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocčnes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ish, Nice cranium with full skeleton.
I haven't seen the Lioness itself present any kind of supporting materials pro or con. Let it speak with its own mouth, please.
(S)he said Taforalt not Aousserd. (S)he also needs to post Euro osteo remains matching Taforalt from neighboring industries; namely Iberia's Magdalene and Azilian, both contemporaneous with the Taforalt Maurusian.
(S)he need show them in tandem to make any kind of support case.
Please don't entertain any posts from the Lioness until (s)he puts up supporting evidence.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this.Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Yup. You got that right. And that's your problem.
Up until this very day,
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Notice up you still haven't been able to show archeological and anthropological data on so called Eurasian presence in Africa during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic. It's funny!
Afalou = Iberomaurusian
Afalou limb proportions clusters with circumpolar peoples
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ none of this describes people of mixed ancestry
Yup. You got that right. And that's your problem.
Up until this very day,
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. (2010) Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Notice up you still haven't been able to show archeological and anthropological data on so called Eurasian presence in Africa during the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic. It's funny!
Afalou = Iberomaurusian
Afalou limb proportions clusters with circumpolar peoples
Holliday 2009
I am waiting for you to show me the remains.
How do (did) you read that chart?
quote: Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely cold-adapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European-derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, bi-iliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Jun;142(2):287-302. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21226. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
quote:The Iberomaurusian is an epipalaeolithic culture that flourished in North Africa for over 10,000 years. A key question surrounds its appearance in the Maghreb, a semi-arid upland zone on the edge of the Sahara, soon after the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 years ago) and despite evidence for a continuation into the Holocene very little is known either about the later part of this timespan or what processes led to its disappearance after 9000 years ago. An issue rarely commented upon is the apparently synchronous and sudden occurrence of large scale midden deposits in Iberomaurusian contexts in caves across the western Maghreb at around 13,000 years ago. This also seems to have coincided with the appearance of some of the earliest cemeteries.
The climatic framework of this study is the late Pleistocene and early Holocene (c. 20,000 - 9000 BP) and is important because it was a phase of major climatic instability and allows us to assess any cultural responses made by Iberomaurusian human populations in the context of these changes. Details of the climatic record for this period come principally from the Greenland Ice cores but there were also marked fluctuations in sea surface temperatures recorded in basal sediments of the Atlantic and Mediterranean. These indicate evidence of distinct cooling phases associated with increased aridification on the adjacent landmasses of North Africa during the Younger Dryas (c.11,000-10,000 years ago), and at earlier times in the past including at around 15,000 and 25,000 years ago. The climatic dynamics provide a vital element in exploring the effects of environmental change on epipalaeolithic human behaviour.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Stop squirming
quote: Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
the Lioness: Taforalt
Back it up or retract it.
quote: North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia.
--On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier.
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[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-124.html] [/URLnotice the difference?_____________________________^^^^
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
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[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-124.html] [/URLnotice the difference?_____________________________^^^^
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
Thanks for posting.
quote:While it is possible that the types found belong to hitherto unrecognised 'transitional Middle-Upper Palaeolithic industries', we believe it more prudent at the moment to leave any precise attribution until further work has been completed.
Libya and the Maghreb: If the archaeology of the Sahara’s southern margins remains relatively poorly understood, the Maghreb has long been the focus of sustained activity focused on the Pleistocene/Holocene transition (Lubell 2000, 2005). Here and at Haua Fteah in northeastern Libya, the Iberomaurusian industry introduced in Chapter 7 continued to be made into the terminal Pleistocene (McBurney 1967; Close and Wendorf 1990). Several unusual features are of interest, including evidence, rare at this time depth, for sculpture. This takes the form of anthropomorphic and zoomorphic ceramic figurines from Afalou, Algeria, baked from locally available clay to temperatures of 500◦–800◦C (Hachi 1996, Hachi et al. 2002). Dating 15–11 kya, they are complemented by an earlier fragmentary figurine from the nearby site of Tamar Hat (Saxon 1976). Distinctive, too, are the many burials known from these later Iberomaurusian contexts, including apparent cemeteries at Afalou (Hachi 1996) and Taforalt, Morocco (almost 200 individuals; Ferembach et al. 1962). Analysis of these remains (see inset) raises issues of territoriality, limited mobility, and group identity that economic data are still too few to explore further.
Knowing that people hunted Barbary sheep and other large mammals and that they collected molluscs, both terrestrial and marine, is very different from being able to develop this checklist of ingredients into a meaningful set of recipes or menus that could illuminate the details of Iberomaurusian subsistence-settlement strategies. WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB: The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).
--Lawrence Barham The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology) Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:[/qb] [i] The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
^^ just one writers speculation, not hard datata, again the word "suggests" is used. Suggests to him
This is a unique population, a hybrid.
And the skeltons of modern berbers might yeild a similar result, yet on DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Your method: DNA can be ignored if a skeleton looks kind of African to a guy
Europeans have some overlap in features with some Africans.
So if you are analzing a skeleton you can say it looks African. Or you can say it looks European. Both statements can be right.
But to exlcude European you have to prove what you are saying with hard data of which certain traits are African exclusively African and therfore of two possibilities you can definitivley exclude one. But you can't only go by one discilipe because you like the result suggested by an Africanist author.
I realize you don't use reasoning. You just find authors who make satements you agree with and post them.
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB: [i] The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
^^ just one writers speculation, not hard datata, again the word "suggests" is used. Suggests to him
This is a unique population, a hybrid.
And the skeltons of modern berbers might yeild a similar result, yet on DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Your method: DNA can be ignored if a skeleton looks kind of African to a guy
Europeans have some overlap in features with some Africans.
So if you are analzing a skeleton you can say it looks African. Or you can say it looks European. Both statements can be right.
But to exlcude European you have to prove what you are saying with hard data of which certain traits are African exclusively African and therfore of two possibilities you can definitivley exclude one. But you can't only go by one discilipe because you like the result suggested by an Africanist author.
I realize you don't use reasoning. You just find authors who make satements you agree with and post them. [/QB]
I did not ignore DNA, I cited DNA studies fool. I showed you that M1 and U6 for example are local to Africa. I showed you a pad of migration people of similar yet older industries from where these M1 and U6 stem, east Africa. As well as crania from these regions and climatology of the Sahara to Maghreb.
And now you claim that Europeans have overlaps, while indigenous Africans cannot and don't?
While from a evolutionary point of view these Holocene specimen traits make all the sense in the world.
The thing is, correlation.
Here is some more specimen from the Sahara correlation. Same time frame. This time from a profile view.
The above shows reasoning!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ Are those bones from the Maghreb, what site is it?
Yes those are from the South of the Maghreb, dating back to the same time frame as is being discussed here.
Have a closer look.
It's later over here, and I'm going to rest. I'm offline.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ suspicious
For your discontinuity. The outliers are what? Right on, there ya' go!
The only thing suspicious here is your ongoing ignorance and arrogance.
quote: Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichitŕ, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
This was my last post. I am truly offline for now. Bye bye.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Aw c'mon
Some Africans were still removing incisors just last century
C'mon now
Give us a set of raw data statistics showing Taforalt Maurusians match Magdalen a/o Azilian skeletons and skulls.
[URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-124.html] [/URLnotice the difference?_____________________________^^^^
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt. The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
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Some Africans were still removing incisors just last century
C'mon now
Give us a set of raw data statistics showing Taforalt Maurusians match Magdalen a/o Azilian skeletons and skulls.
Troll Patrol seems to think there could have been no significant input from Europe into North Africa around 10-12,000 ya Do you agree with this?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
There you go again with unsubstantiated bullshit. Berbers are not primarily Eurasian. Per DNA (mtDNA, nrY Chrom, autosomes) aggregated in toto, Berbers primarily African.
You and our dumbass keep pushing the mtDNA as if it's the one and only determinant.
U r full of **** and you know it.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: DNA analysis show primarily Eurasian DNA
Meanwhile ...
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this. Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
All this stuff we are talking about at the moment is prehistoric, many lack of continuity issues involved
The thread topic is are the berbers of 2014 as a whole, primarily African.
I suppose in this case "primarily" means 51%
In this situation where the stats may be straddling in the middle and the wide diversity of modern day berbers I think it would be hard to make a case with certainty one way or the other.
Suppose modern day berbers are 42% African?
That would make them 58% non-African
On the other hand what if they are 58% African
and only 42% non-African?
(keep in mind there's a whole relatively recent Islamic expansion into NA to consider)
Say it's either one of the above cases 42/58 or 58/42 ?
what relevance is that apart from some rhetorical game on who wins by being greater than 50? It's not learning it competitiveness on a number for it's own sake.
The more relevant point is that the berbers of today are a very ethnically mixed group and Maghrebians as a whole even less percentage indigenous African (although significant)
The other more relevant issue is Was there significant non African input into North Africa 10-12,000 years ago?
It shouldn't be a big puzzle, the extracted DNA. That trumps speculation on ambiguous physical morphology in this case.
Predictably if Greece or Mesopotamia were being discussed and African DNA mentioned the same people would be parading the DNA
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
17 mirrors floating on the sea distract as distract can but you can't distract me.
So ....
Stop pussyfooting.
Please elaborate.
Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
List actual osteo remains from both industries' sites.
Nothing else can suffice.
Don't let the Lioness get away with distracting and diverting away from backing up "her" claim.
If "she" posts anything else just tell "her" to answer this.
What's holding you up? A - Scared? B - Incapable? C - Full of ****? D - All of the above?
You opened up your mouth spouting horseshit you can't back up (as usual) then you try to play it off and change the subject (as usual) but that routine doesn't work on me.
Raw data and statistics wench not more hot air farts out your mouth.
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Show how Maurusian Taforalt crania and skeletons are a match for Magdalenian Europe or match w/Azilian Pyrenees.
they don't have to match a European
I keep telling you idiots,
they only have to match a person 51% non African and 49% African, to win your dumb rhetorical game
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
What? Yet another hot air mouth fart?
Oh poor puddy tat mew mew mew yadda yadda yadda
OK you admit defeat and that you were full of **** right from the start when you spit at Ish
quote: Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa? the Lioness: Taforalt
U got no phunk U got no punk U got no jazz no razzamatazz
but most of all
u got no Paleolithic Eurasian skulls and skeletons in North Africa!
Taf VIII one of the Taforalt physical remains This is the one Kefi had to admit its DNA was in the L/M/N category i.e., same as her sub-Sudanese.
Since climatology disallows for flow from 15 north lat from 22 - 12 kya then its ancestress was there from the start of the Maurusian industry just like the U6, H, and the alleged V and JT ancestresses.
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The first step is compiling a list of all the berber groups and their populations.
So nobody is even on sqaure one. I can't do the work for everybody.
Hypothetically what if there were only two berber groups.
Group one has a population of 10 and is 80% African, 20% non African.
Group two has a population of 40 and is 20% African , 80% non African.
- what is there percentage of african to non african of all the berbers as a whole, 50 people total in this hypothetical ?
If you don't know you cant even begin to address the thread question. You have to understand something about statistics, not just rhetoric
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals 2013
Federico Sánchez-Quinto equal contributor, Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Sergi Civit, Conxita Arenas, María C. Ávila-Arcos, Carlos D. Bustamante, David Comas Carles Lalueza-Fox
Abstract
One of the main findings derived from the analysis of the Neandertal genome was the evidence for admixture between Neandertals and non-African modern humans. An alternative scenario is that the ancestral population of non-Africans was closer to Neandertals than to Africans because of ancient population substructure. Thus, the study of North African populations is crucial for testing both hypotheses. We analyzed a total of 780,000 SNPs in 125 individuals representing seven different North African locations and searched for their ancestral/derived state in comparison to different human populations and Neandertals. We found that North African populations have a significant excess of derived alleles shared with Neandertals, when compared to sub-Saharan Africans. This excess is similar to that found in non-African humans, a fact that can be interpreted as a sign of Neandertal admixture. Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals.
Recent genetic analysis of North African populations [17] have found that, despite the complex admixture genetic background, there is an autochthonous genomic component which is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow older than 12,000 years ago (ya) (i.e., prior to the Neolithic migrations). This local population substratum seems to represent a genetic discontinuity with the earliest modern human settlers of North Africa (those with the Aterian industry) given the estimated ancestry is younger than 40,000 years ago [17]. The estimated time of Neandertal admixture with modern human populations is between 37,000–86,000 years ago
our results show that Neandertal genomic traces do not mark a division between African and non-Africans but rather a division between Sub-Saharan Africans and the rest of modern human groups, including those from North
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^!funny how the author doesn't mention the following, which for some odd reason he totally overlooked:
quote: During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (communities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the mountains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).
--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote: The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
--Susan M. Adams
The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
quote:Dr. Ralph D. Winter founded the U.S. Center for World Mission (USCWM) - A Christian missionary group which is based in Pasadena, California. The Joshua Project.
A Turk of Algeria
A French woman of Algeria
A Spaniard of Algeria
A Romani (Gypsy) of Algeria
A Berber, Kabyle of Algeria
An Arabic speaker in Algeria
The Berber, Imazighen of Algeria
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Funny how that author doesn't mention the following:
quote: Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
quote: The presence of sub-Saharan L-type mtDNA sequences in North Africa has traditionally been explained by the recent slave trade. However, gene flow between sub-Saharan and northern African populations would also have been made possible earlier through the greening of the Sahara resulting from Early Holocene climatic improvement. In this article, we examine human dispersals across the Sahara through the analysis of the sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroup L3e5, which is not only commonly found in the Lake Chad Basin (∼17%), but which also attains nonnegligible frequencies (∼10%) in some Northwestern African populations. Age estimates point to its origin ∼10 ka, probably directly in the Lake Chad Basin, where the clade occurs across linguistic boundaries. The virtual absence of this specific haplogroup in Daza from Northern Chad and all West African populations suggests that its migration took place elsewhere, perhaps through Northern Niger. Interestingly, independent confirmation of Early Holocene contacts between North Africa and the Lake Chad Basin have been provided by craniofacial data from Central Niger, supporting our suggestion that the Early Holocene offered a suitable climatic window for genetic exchanges between North and sub-Saharan Africa. In view of its younger founder age in North Africa, the discontinuous distribution of L3e5 was probably caused by the Middle Holocene re-expansion of the Sahara desert, disrupting the clade's original continuous spread.
--Eliška Podgorná et al.
Annals of Human Genetics Volume 77, Issue 6, pages 513–523, November 2013
The Genetic Impact of the Lake Chad Basin Population in North Africa as Documented by Mitochondrial Diversity and Internal Variation of the L3e5 Haplogroup
posted
Funny that author didn't mention any of this:
The Uan Muhuggia Mummy
quote:For years, Italian Anthropologist Fabrizio Mori has been trekking into the Libyan Desert to look for graffiti, ancient inscriptions on rocks. Near the oasis of Ghat, 500 miles south of the Mediterranean coast, he found on his last expedition a shallow cave with many graffiti scratched on its walls. When he dug into the sandy floor, he found a peculiar bundle: a goatskin wrapped around the desiccated body of a child. The entrails had been removed and replaced by a bundle of herbs.
Such deliberate mummification was practiced chiefly by the ancient Egyptians. But when Dr. Mori took the mummy back to Italy and had its age measured by the carbon 14 method, it proved to be 5,400 years old—considerably older than the oldest known civilization in the valley of the Nile 900 miles to the east.
The discovery suggested a clue to one of the great puzzles of Egyptology: Where was the birthplace of Egyptian culture? Although many authorities believe it is the world's oldest, they have been perplexed by the fact that it did not develop gradually in the Nile Valley. About 3200 B.C. the First Dynasty appeared there suddenly and full grown, with an elaborate religion, laws, arts and crafts, and a system of writing. Until that time the Nile Valley was apparently inhabited by neolithic people on a low cultural level. Dr. Mori's mummy provides support for the theory that Egyptian culture grew by slow stages in the Sahara, which was not then a desert. When the climate grew insupportably dry, the already civilized Egyptians took refuge in the Nile Valley, and the sands of the Sahara swept over their former home.
The mummy does not prove that there is a civilization buried in the Sahara but it does mean that, in the next few years, the desert will be swarming with anthropologists looking for one.
quote: The Middle Holocene, and more precisely the period from around 6400 BP and 5000 BP, was a period of profound environmental change, during which the global climate underwent a systematic reorganisation as the warm, humid post-glacial climate of the Early Holocene gave way to a climatic configuration broadly similar to that of today (Brooks, 2010; Mayewski et al., 2004). The most prominent manifestations of this transition were a cooling at middle and high latitudes and high altitudes (Thompson et al., 2006), a transition from relatively humid to arid conditions in the NHST (Brooks, 2006, 2010; deMenocal et al., 2000) and the establishment of a regular El Nińo after a multimillennial period during which is was rare or absent (Sandweiss et al., 2007).
This “Middle Holocene Climatic Transition” (MHCT) represented a stepwise acceleration of climatic trends that had commenced in the 9th millennium BP in some regions (Jung et al., 2004), and entailed a long-term shift towards cooler and more arid conditions, punctuated by episodes of abrupt climatic change. Around 6400–6300 BP, palaeo-environmental evidence indicates abrupt lake recessions and increased aridity in northern Africa, western Asia, South Asia and northern China, and the advance of glaciers in Europe and elsewhere (Damnati, 2000; Enzel et al., 1999; Jung et al., 2004; Linstädter & Kröpelin, 2004; Mayewski et al., 2004; Zhang et al., 2000).
Ocean records suggest a cold-arid episode around 5900 BP (Bond et al., 1997), followed in the Sahara by an abrupt shift to aridity around 5800–5700 BP, evident in terrestrial records from the Libyan central Sahara and marine records from the Eastern Tropical Atlantic (Cremaschi, 2002; di Lernia, 2002; deMenocal et al., 2000). From about 5800–5700 BP to 5200–5000 BP, aridification intensified in the Sahara (deMenocal et al., 2000), South Asia (Enzel et al., 1999), north-central China (Zhang et al., 2000; Xiao et al., 2004) and the Arabian Peninsula (Parker et al., 2006). Over the same period, drought conditions prevailed in the Eastern Mediterranean (Bar-Matthews & Ayalon, 2011), the Zagros Mountains of Iran (Stevens et al., 2006) and County Mayo in Ireland (Caseldine et al., 2005), while river flow into the Cariaco Basin of northern South America decreased (Haug et al., 2001). An abrupt cold-arid episode around 5200 BP is evident in environmental records from Europe, Africa, western Asia, China and South America, (Caseldine et al., 2005; Gasse, 2002; Magny & Haas, 2004; Parker et al., 2006; Thompson et al., 1995).
The above evidence indicates that the MHCT was associated with a weakening of monsoon systems across the globe, and the southward retreat of monsoon rains in the NHST (Lézine, 2009). However, these changes coincided with climatic reorganisation outside of the global monsoon belt, as indicated by the onset of El Nińo and evidence of large changes in climate at middle and high latitudes. The ultimate driving force behind these changes was a decline in the intensity of summer solar radiation outside the tropics, resulting from long-term changes in the angle of the Earth’s axis of rotation relative to its orbital plane. This was translated into abrupt changes in climate by non-linear feedback processes within the climate system (Brooks, 2004; deMenocal et al., 2000; Kukla & Gavin, 2004).
[...]
In the Sahara, population agglomeration is also evident in certain areas such as the Libyan Fezzan, which (albeit much later) also saw the emergence of an indigenous Saharan “civilization” in the form of the Garamantian Tribal Confederation, the development of which has been described explicitly in terms of adaptation to increased aridity (Brooks, 2006; di Lernia et al., 2002; Mattingly et al., 2003).
--Nick Brooks (2013): Beyond collapse: climate change and causality during the Middle Holocene Climatic Transition, 6400–5000 years before present, Geografisk Tidsskrift-Danish Journal of Geography, 112:2, 93-104
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quote: U got no phunk U got no punk U got no jazz no razzamatazz
but most of all
u got no Paleolithic Eurasian skulls and skeletons in North Africa!
Sorry but I can't pass this up too funny..ok u guyz continue.
It's indeed way too funny,
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
quote:Craniometric data from seven human groups (Tables 3, 4) were subjected to principal components analysis, which allies the early Holocene population at Gobero (Gob-e) with mid-Holocene “Mechtoids” from Mali and Mauritania [18], [26], [27] and with Late Pleistocene Iberomaurusians and early Holocene Capsians from across the Maghreb
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^ who's to say this isn't half or more European?
Who's to say the Moon isn't really bleu cheese. Speculation runs rife in absence of evidence.
Raw data and statistics please of Taforalt Maurusian versus Iberian Magdalene/Azilian.
After being asked a gzillion times it's time to put up or STFU
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Troll Patrol where in North Africa is the Paleolithic Eurasian component?
It's in one specific time period and costal location. You asked for bones I gave you bones. Cold adapted limb ratios from a Trenton Holliday article, deal with the situation. Because you can put up info from the Sahael or even another later green period coastal culture, the more gracile Capsian culture (discontinuity has ben noted) does not change the fact that both morphologically and by DNA analysis there is significant evidence for a European presence in a part of North Africa 12,000 years ago. And if M81 is 5,600 old what was Iberomaurusians Y DNA ? Was it E ? I don't know if their paternal DNA has been analyzed
Then return to the topic, not prehistoric DNA but the contemporary DNA of berbers today.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: a chart from a peer reviewed article which is scaled according to numerical morphological data to you is blue cheese?
DNA from 12,000 years ago is blue cheese?
up is down, down is up?
And a clown is a clown as in y-o-u.
It is not a statistical comparison of the two subject population groups' physicality.
U couldn't compare to show 1- Magdalenian Europe/Azilian Pyrenees (Paleolithic Eurasians) __ crania and skeletons(physical remains) are a match for 2- Maurusian Taforalt (North Africa)
U haven't done it yet U r not going to try to do it now cos U can't do it never
Fail, the Lioness, a big fail 4 u !!!
The dance is done and u along w/it. We know u'll keep repeatin when you need be retreatin but this is the end for you about this
Cro-Magnon North Africans went out with button up shoes and your boyfriend Carleton Coon.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Who the **** do you think you are? This is my thread bitch You don't tell anybody what they can or can't post You ain't no moderator Quit acting like Lord of ES. You ain't even the bellhop.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol ... return to the topic, not prehistoric DNA but the contemporary DNA of berbers today.
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Afalou limb proportions are cold adapted, clustering with Alaskans!
Hattab II Cave in northwestern Morocco
/close thread
How do (did) you read that chart?
quote:
Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely cold-adapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European-derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, bi-iliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Jun;142(2):287-302. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21226. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
Maghreb specimen clusters with Gobero specimen, dumbass! Multiple sources from multiple disciplines have been cited, you dumbass!
quote:
Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together,
[...]
The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).
--Paul C. Sereno Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: [QB] Who the **** do you think you are? This is my thread bitch
asshole, lioness quotes are your thread concepts now ?
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: yet it icould be consistent with the Brenna Henn back migration hypothesis, the reason for the cold adapted limb ratios and also brachycephalism of some of the Afalou ( as well as Achilli 2005 finding common U5 hgs between Lapps (Saami) and berber)
Agree, but it should be noted that the Ibero-Maurusians are likely not cold-adapted in their limbs. Mesolithic European and East Asians fossils also have relatively high limb proportions. In fact, Mesolithic Europeans have much higher crural and brachial indices than Ibero-Maurusians. Their crural and brachial index are at 85.5% and 77.5 respectively per Holiday 1997. Its simply a pleisiomorphic trait from their Upper Palaeolithic ancestors, and ultimate from Africans. What you want to look at is their bodyplan in its entirety or their absolute limb length, both of which are unlikely to retain a plesiomorphic state for as long as limb proportions.
Additionally, brachial and crural indices do not appear to be a good measure of overall limb length, and thus, while the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic humans have significantly higher (i.e., tropically-adapted) brachial and crural indices than do recent Europeans, they also have shorter (i.e., cold-adapted) limbs. The somewhat paradoxical retention of "tropical" indices in the context of more "cold-adapted" limb length is best explained as evidence for Replacement in the European Late Pleistocene, followed by gradual cold adaptation in glacial Europe. --Holiday, 1999
quote: Originally posted by Lioness: Capsians, referred in the article to as Ain Dokhara ,on the other hand, who replaced the Iberomaurusian according to this dendogram did have tropical limb ratios.
Caution is advised here. Ain Dokhara is just a single specimen. I wouldn't be surprised if some European or Ibero-Maurusian sample diverged in the African direction as well. In fact, what I could make out from the blurred readcube rendering of the paper is that at least one Afalou specimen clustered with the North Africans. We're talking populations with all their variations, not isolated individuals. There is also the issue of whether the introduction of the Neolithic tradition from the Sudan area influenced the Capsians biologically.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll Patrol where in North Africa is the Paleolithic Eurasian component?
It's in one specific time period and costal location. You asked for bones I gave you bones. Cold adapted limb ratios from a Trenton Holliday article, deal with the situation. Because you can put up info from the Sahael or even another later green period coastal culture, the more gracile Capsian culture (discontinuity has ben noted) does not change the fact that both morphologically and by DNA analysis there is significant evidence for a European presence in a part of North Africa 12,000 years ago. And if M81 is 5,600 old what was Iberomaurusians Y DNA ? Was it E ? I don't know if their paternal DNA has been analyzed
Then return to the topic, not prehistoric DNA but the contemporary DNA of berbers today.
Where is the Eurasian specimen in North Africa?
Where are the fossil records?
The discontinuity is from the outliers such as the Aterian and Gob-m.
The continuity is from all other indigenous Southern populations.
quote: Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
--Paul C. Sereno
E-M81 is a mutation and a sub clade of a older Africa clade, E-M183.
This mutation parallels with the climatic shifts in the region.
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