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Author Topic: Berbers are primarily not African ?
typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Herodotus said that the Persian army was 50% ethiop, which means these blacks have been there all along.

Where is the quote? There is no such quote I have seen where Hedodotus says the Persian army was 50 % Ethiopian.
- unless it was about the invasion of Egypt, it could be possible.
To make such a claim you need to be scholarly and back it with a quote. Also keep in mind Herodotus is considered not always accurate. Regardless, the Persian army was a very diverse. The Persians demanded troops from all of their conquered lands. The army was comprised of Persians, Indians, Elamites, Medes, Bactrians, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Arabians, and Phrygians. The core of the army was made up of Persians and Medes, but the vast majority of the army were light skirmishers from central Asia and the eastern Mediterranean.


Here is a quote from Herodotus:

[7.70] The eastern Ethiopians - for two nations of this name served in the army - were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while they of Libya (here he is talking about ALL of Africa) are more woolly-haired than any other people in the world.

________________________________

So are you including these dark skinned straight haired folk not of Africa, yet whom herodotus calls "Eastern Ethiopians?

what you are dealing with is conjecture. No where does he mention the origin of the ethiops in Persia,just that they were there. He also says southern Iran/Persia is completely ethiop.
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Tukuler
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C'mon TypeZeiss

Don't aid the Lyin'Ass in taking my thread totally off topic.

Please carry on over at the Herodotus' Eastern Aethiopians thread here

Thank you for respecting my request.
Thank you for respecting my thread.

I'm not asking much and peripheral stuff is OK as long as its about Berber
biological composition a/o the Maghreb like your earlier contributions.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

The chart of E does apply on the distribution of the Iberomaurusians. As I have stated before, E-M81 is likely a mutation due to climate change.



A chart showing various frequencies of different E clades of modern berbers
has nothing to do with Iberomaurusians' DNA

--Show me any Y DNA analysis that even pertains to what hgs they carried, any, specific to Iberomaurusians

LP to the fullest, Tukuler is an enabler

By The Enabler Tukuler

By The Enabler Tukuler




I already have shown the distribution. That chart shows the "Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree". Hence the name of the study: "Binary Polymorphisms".



You have shown nothing. You asked me for a skeleton of Iberomaurusians I showed you one.

They are a specific unique group and have noted morphological differences to Capsians as noted by archaeologists.
They lived in the Maghreb for about 10,000 years.

I asked you for YDNA of this specific group of skeletons called Iberomaurusian in as specific place in Morroco.

You showed none therefore you don't know what the paternal haplogroups of Iberomaurusians is , period. end of story

WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.


THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.


I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.

I HAVE SHOWN YOU THE NUCLEAR TRIATS OF THESE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE. I CANT HELP IT THAT YOU ARE TOO DUB TO UNDERSTAND ANY IF THIS.

YOU FAIL AGAIN!

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
what you are dealing with is conjecture. No where does he mention the origin of the ethiops in Persia,just that they were there. He also says southern Iran/Persia is completely ethiop. [/QB]

what you're saying doesn't make sense:


Herodotus

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt

[3.17] After this Cambyses took counsel with himself, and planned three expeditions. One was against the Carthaginians, another against the Ammonians, and a third against the long-lived Ethiopians, who dwelt in that part of Libya which borders upon the southern sea.


[3.100] There is another set of Indians whose customs are very different. They refuse to put any live animal to death, they sow no corn, and have no dwelling-houses. Vegetables are their only food. There is a plant which grows wild in their country, bearing seed, about the size of millet-seed, in a calyx: their wont is to gather this seed and having boiled it, calyx and all, to use it for food. If one of them is attacked with sickness, he goes forth into the wilderness, and lies down to die; no one has the least concern either for the sick or for the dead.

[3.101] All the tribes which I have mentioned live together like the brute beasts: they have also all the same tint of skin, which approaches that of the Ethiopians. Their country is a long way from Persia towards the south: nor had king Darius ever any authority over them.

________

He was succeeded on the throne, they said, by a blind man, a
native of Anysis, whose own name also was Anysis. Under him Egypt
was invaded by a vast army of Ethiopians, led by Sabacos, their
king. The blind Anysis fled away to the marsh-country, and the
Ethiopian was lord of the land for fifty years, during which his
mode of rule was the following:- When an Egyptian was guilty of an
offence, his plan was not to punish him with death: instead of so
doing, he sentenced him, according to the nature of his crime, to
raise the ground to a greater or a less extent in the neighbourhood of
the city to which he belonged. Thus the cities came to be even more
elevated than they were before. As early as the time of Sesostris,
they had been raised by those who dug the canals in his reign; this
second elevation of the soil under the Ethiopian king gave them a very
lofty position. Among the many cities which thus attained to a great
elevation, none (I think) was raised so much as the town called
Bubastis, where there is a temple of the goddess Bubastis, which
well deserves to be described.

Psammis reigned only six years. He attacked Ethiopia, and died
almost directly afterwards. Apries, his son, succeeded him upon the
throne, who, excepting Psammetichus, his great-grandfather, was the
most prosperous of all the kings that ever ruled over Egypt.


The Garamantians have four-horse chariots, in which
they chase the Troglodyte Ethiopians, who of all the nations whereof
any account has reached our ears are by far the swiftest of foot.

The Arabians, and the Ethiopians who came from the
region above Egypt, were commanded by Arsames, the son of Darius and
of Artystone daughter of Cyrus. This Artystone was the best-beloved of
all the wives of Darius; and it was she whose statue he caused to be
made of gold wrought with the hammer. Her son Arsames commanded
these two nations.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.


THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.


I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.


YOU FAIL AGAIN! [/qb]

How many times do I have to show you this?

 -


_________________________________________________


 -
Human burial at Taforalt under excavation
____________________________________________

COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and
Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262.
ISSN 0018-442X.
Abstract:


We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness is not smart enough to play me. I am following his lead on the morphology of the Magrebians. The Afro-Iranian comment was just passing time. So my question still stands. How does Herodotus discribe the Magrebians. Original translation.

Assuming Magrebians, Libyans and Berbers are equivalent.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-libya1.asp
quote:

HERODOTUS - BIOGRAPHY


Herodotus (484 BCE – c. 425 BCE) was a Greek Historian as well as known as the Father of Lies. These two titles were commonly held hand in hand as the early recorders of history were attempting to record an objective recounting of events while taking their stories from first-hand, second-hand, third-hand, etc accounts instead of recording a direct experience. Also entwined in the pejorative label of “Father of Lies” is that Herodotus was susceptible to subjective inclusion or exclusion of histories based on his personal involvement with peoples. Thebans and Corinthians who both denied him funds for his work subsequently suffered not the prettiest of pictures when recounted in Herodotus' work. Athenians gave him a fortune, thus perhaps securing a favorable telling of their exploits. Regardless, Herodotus was one of the first writers to bring together historical accounts (whether tweaked by the tellers or himself or not) and the only one to have survived in the form of The Histories. Therefore, the moniker of Father of History sticks.

[...]

Herodotus would also talk to many people and would recount the different accounts before choosing to promote the one that he found most probable. This is probably what garnered him the moniker of Father of Lies for within his history exist some pretty tall tales.


[...]

It is speculated that The Histories must have been around 415 BCE. Before that, Herodotus's craft would have looked very much like Homer's. The culture around the Mediterranean was oral and not written and just as Herodotus gained his knowledge from oral storytelling, he passed on much of it in this way as well.

--European Graduate School
http://www.egs.edu/library/herodotus/biography/

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the lioness,
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^^^ message to typeZeiss and xyyman. Troll Patrol says Herodotus is the father of lies so disregard what he says
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.


THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.


I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.


YOU FAIL AGAIN!

How many times do I have to show you this?

 - [/QB]

Photograph: Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt.


www.nerc.ac.uk/research/programmes/efched/results

How many times I have to ask you for evidence of Eurasian females Paleolithic, Holocene Africa?


Is my question so hard to understand?


quote:
Environmental factors in human evolution and dispersals in the Upper Pleistocene of the western Mediterranean

EFCHED

Our project examined the early human occupation of Morocco in the Upper Pleistocene, with the broad aims of identifying changes in the archaeological and environ-mental records and assessing whether these may be correlated with global climatic events.

Northern and eastern Morocco are of critical interest because they lie on a potentially important human dispersal route extending from the Maghreb westwards along the Mediterranean coast and close to the narrow strait that separates Africa from Europe.

Yet, despite the distinctiveness of its geographical location, it is unclear whether cultural successions in this region were predominantly local events, indicative of isolation and endemism, or influenced by demographic movements from outside.

In particular, surprisingly little is known about the chronology of the Middle and Upper Palaeolithic or of the palaeoenvironmental background to human occupation during this time.


Our study has focused principally on caves in the north and east of the country. Here there is a wealth of Palaeolithic evidence, often in well-preserved contexts and with possibilities for obtaining dating analyses and multi-proxy data to reconstruct former environments.

These data include a wide range of materials such as charcoals and phytoliths, small and large fossil mammals, reptiles, amphibians, birds and molluscs.

One of the key sites is Grotte de Pigeons at Taforalt, near the border with Algeria. Our excavations and sampling of this cave have produced over 40 AMS radiocarbon determinations, OSL, TL and U-series dates from cultural and other horizons spanning the Middle and Upper Palaeolithic.

This work is still ongoing but already provides one of the longest dated sequences for these periods from anywhere in the North African Maghreb.

Results and future directions

1. We have demonstrated that the Upper Palaeolithic, locally known as the Ibero-maurusian, probably dates no earlier than 17.085ka (YS occupation horizon 2).

However, artefacts in the underlying YS occupation horizons 3 (22.2ka) and 4 (25.76ka) neither fall within the Ibero-maurusian nor do they seem to fit the description of the Middle Palaeolithic Aterian described by earlier excavators.

While it is possible that the types found belong to hitherto unrecognised 'transitional Middle-Upper Palaeolithic industries', we believe it more prudent at the moment to leave any precise attribution until further work has been completed.

These results nevertheless refute the view still held by some archaeologists that the Maghreb was abandoned by humans between 40-20ka.

2. Using the calibrated age scales it is possible to show that Upper Palaeolithic Iberomaurusian and earlier human activities at Taforalt were broadly contemporary with a number of presumed cooling episodes in the oceanic record.

However the exact status of Heinrich Events and Dansgaard-Oeschger cycles in relation to climatic change still needs to be fully clarified and it may be too simplistic to interpret all of these episodes in the same way and purely in terms of major cooling and drying.

Thus although it seems reasonable to acknowledge a correlation between Heinrich Events and occupation episodes at Taforalt, the case for climate change as a dominant factor in this process cannot be fully tested until further work on reconstructing the palaeoenvironmental sequence has been completed.

3. Evidence of human mortuary activity in the Iberomaurusian Upper Palaeolithic comes from undisturbed human burials at the back of the cave.

Excavations in 2005 and 2006 revealed the partially articulated skeletons of four adults.

Individuals were buried in a crouched or seated position and are closely associated with horn cores of various sizes, which are absent elsewhere in the deposit.


Other burials have been identified but not yet fully excavated, including those of infants, children and adults.

We do not have direct dating evidence for the burials yet, but it is clear from thicker sequences of sediments preserved elsewhere in the cave that they come from within grey ashy deposits (overlying the YS series).

The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.

The new excavations provide the first opportunity to record human mortuary activity at Grotte de Pigeons in detail and may contribute to a revised interpretation of the existing osteological sample.

We will now study the human fossils for evidence of diet, activity patterns, skeletal and dental disease, and cultural modification in order to develop an overall understanding of human lifestyle during this period.

We will also try to establish the relationship between the Iberomaurusian people of Taforalt and other previous and subsequent human groups within the region.

4. Investigation of the lower sequence of Middle Palaeolithic layers at Taforalt has revealed a major series of archaeological horizons in ashy deposits with associated faunal and botanical remains.

Preliminary dating based on luminescence and U-series determinations suggests human occupation occurred during late MIS6 and continued intermittently until <40ka.


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KING
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.


THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.


I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.


YOU FAIL AGAIN!

How many times do I have to show you this?

 -


_________________________________________________


 -
Human burial at Taforalt under excavation
____________________________________________

COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and
Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262.
ISSN 0018-442X.
Abstract:


We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones. [/QB]

Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc.
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Ish Geber
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^^^Mike, you need to empty your message box. I do have important info.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ message to typeZeiss and xyyman. Troll Patrol says Herodotus is the father of lies so disregard what he says

 -
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the lioness,
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Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa?
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa?

Yes, and so is the specimen equal to other specimen from the South, which happen to be of indigenous Africans. Do you understand that?


If the specimen is and was Eurasian it would have shown so. It did and does not, do you understand that?

I have posted many Moroccan specimen from the same time period, do you understand that?


I showed them in profile, do you understand that?


So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.


Tick tock...


 -

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
C'mon TypeZeiss

Don't aid the Lyin'Ass in taking my thread totally off topic.

Please carry on over at the Herodotus' Eastern Aethiopians thread here

Thank you for respecting my request.
Thank you for respecting my thread.

I'm not asking much and peripheral stuff is OK as long as its about Berber
biological composition a/o the Maghreb like your earlier contributions.

I apologize
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

WHAT I ASKED WAS AND IS THE SHOW ME (US) EURASIAN/ EUROPEAN FEMALE REMAINS IN PALEOLITHIC, HOLOCENE, MESOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC AFRICA.


THUS FAR YOU HAVE NOT DONE THIS, FOR 4 YEARS STRAIGHT.


I HAVE SHOWN YOU MULTIPLE SOURCES SHOWING THE SPECIMEN OF THE PALEOLITHIC HOLOCENE MAGHREB RELATES TO THOSE OF THE SOUTH. THE INDIGENOUS AFRICANS.


YOU FAIL AGAIN!

How many times do I have to show you this?

 -


_________________________________________________


 -
Human burial at Taforalt under excavation
____________________________________________

COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and
Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa. Homo 50(3):249-262.
ISSN 0018-442X.
Abstract:


We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.

Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc. [/QB]
It confirms exactly this:


 -


 -


 -


 -


 -




quote:
*Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)(2008)


For your comparison:



 -


quote:
Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).


[...]


Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

--Nick Brooks et al. (2004)

The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"


Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK
Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).


quote:


Plot of first two principal components extracted from a mean matrix for 17 craniometric variables (Tables 4, 7) in 9 human populations (Table 3) from the Late Pleistocene through the mid-Holocene from the Maghreb and southern Sahara. Seven trans-Saharan populations cluster together,

[...]


The striking similarity between these seven human populations confirms previous suggestions regarding their affinity [18] and is particularly significant given their temporal range (Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene) and trans-Saharan geographic distribution (across the Maghreb to the southern Sahara).

--Paul C. Sereno
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa? [/qb]

Yes, and so is the specimen equal to other specimen from the South. Do you understand that?


This shows you lack objective reasoning.
It's called a forgone conclusion.
I understand you rthought process now.

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

If the specimen is and was Eurasian it would have shown so. It did and does not, do you understand that?


You claim the specimen does not show it's Eurasian.
You have no basis for saying this. You think just by saying it must be true

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

I have posted many Moroccan specimen from the same time period, do you understand that?


I showed them in profile, do you understand that?


yes I understand that but not all Paleolithic Moroccoans were Iberomaurusian, one example are Capsians who have a different morphology

>>> but you didn't not post an Iberomaurusian in profile and they were around for about 10,000 years

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.


Tick tock... [/QB]

Nobody is waiting for me to post the same thing over and over agian but you. I posted a Paleolithic cold adapted Iberomaurusian from Morroco and also is from a 12K Bp population that has European/Eurasian DNA. I have doing what you requested

yet you keep asking to see it over and over again

because you are an expert who can analyze human remains from burial photos and know more than professional scientists who measured and charted these Taforalt remains and took DNA samples. And you didn't even have an explantion as to your eyeball assessment, you just ask the same thing over and over.


You are like someone who says all apples are red.
I then post a green apple.
You then say "post a green apple, tick tock, tick tock"
then I post it again
and the process repeats endlessly
It's a form of autism

It's a neat trick to make people think I haven't answered the request even though I have. You have no rebuttal you just ignore tha answer and ask it over and over again, with the long repetative reply copies, destroying the readability of threads

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc. [/QB]

He ripped it off from Tukuler.
So the assumption is that Iberomaurusians were of the same stock as Sudanese? What about the fact that Sudanese are very tropically adapted and Iberomaurusians have limb rations like Alaskans as shown by Trenton Holliday one of the most prominent paleoanthropologists in the world.
You cannot determine ancestry by a cultural tradition alone, and use it as a cause for exteme denial. Could that be political
And it was also practiced in ancient Israel

The Iberomaurusians were settled in Africa for 10,000 years.
Do you think this tooth removal tradition therefore had to be a black African thing only?
And once a foreign population is in a new region they are called "indigenous" or "natve" at that point, example, "Native Americans" - Asians who came form Siberia across the bearing strait

Consider the mentality, people who post tons of DNA and physiocal anthropolgy data, then when they don't like the results throw it away

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Do you understand that Iberomaurusians are Paleolithic and Taforalt is in Morocco which is in Africa?

Yes, and so is the specimen equal to other specimen from the South. Do you understand that?


This shows you lack objective reasoning.
It's called a forgone conclusion.
I understand you rthought process now.

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

If the specimen is and was Eurasian it would have shown so. It did and does not, do you understand that?


You claim the specimen does not show it's Eurasian.
You have no basis for saying this. You think just by saying it must be true

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

I have posted many Moroccan specimen from the same time period, do you understand that?


I showed them in profile, do you understand that?


yes I understand that but not all Paleolithic Moroccoans were Iberomaurusian, one example are Capsians who have a different morphology

>>> but you didn't not post an Iberomaurusian in profile and they were around for about 10,000 years

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:

So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.


Tick tock... [/QB]

Nobody is waiting for me to post the same thing over and over agian but you. I posted a Paleolithic cold adapted Iberomaurusian from Morroco and also is from a 12K Bp population that has European/Eurasian DNA. I have doing what you requested

yet you keep asking to see it over and over again

because you are an expert who can analyze human remains from burial photos and know more than professional scientists who measured and charted these Taforalt remains and took DNA samples. And you didn't even have an explantion as to your eyeball assessment, you just ask the same thing over and over.


You are like someone who says all apples are red.
I then post a green apple.
You then say "post a green apple, tick tock, tick tock"
then I post it again
and the process repeats endlessly
It's a form of autism

It's a neat trick to make people think I haven't answered the request even though I have. You have no rebuttal you just ignore tha answer and ask it over and over again, with the long repetative reply copies, destroying the readability of threads [/QB]

So again, others and I are eagerly waiting for you to finally post evince of Eurasian/ European female specimen of the Paleolithic, Holocene, Mesolithic and Neolithic in Africa.


Photograph: Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt.


www.nerc.ac.uk/research/programmes/efched/results


 -  -






WHAT BONES CAN TELL: BIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE HUNTER-GATHERERS OF THE MAGHREB:
quote:


The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).

Turning to what can be learned about cultural practices and disease, the individuals from Taforalt, the largest sample by far, display little evidence of trauma, though they do suggest a high incidence of infant mortality, with evidence for dental caries, arthritis, and rheumatism among other degenerative conditions. Interestingly, Taforalt also provides one of the oldest known instances of the practice of trepanation, the surgical removal of a portion of the cranium; the patient evidently survived for some time, as there are signs of bone regrowth in the affected area. Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000).

--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by KING:
Maybe I am wrong Lioness but Trollpatrol is trying to show you to read that the skeleton you keep posting has its teeth removed like some cultures in the Sudan etc.

He ripped it off from Tukuler.
So the assumption is that Iberomaurusians were of the same stock as Sudanese? What about the fact that Sudanese are very tropically adapted and Iberomaurusians have limb rations like Alaskans as shown by Trenton Holliday one of the most prominent paleoanthropologists in the world.
You cannot determine ancestry by a cultural tradition alone, and use it as a cause for exteme denial. Could that be political
And it was also practiced in ancient Israel

The Iberomaurusians were settled in Africa for 10,000 years.
Do you think this tooth removal tradition therefore had to be a black African thing only?
And once a foreign population is in a new region they are called "indigenous" or "natve" at that point, example, "Native Americans" - Asians who came form Siberia across the bearing strait

Consider the mentality, people who post tons of DNA and physiocal anthropolgy data, then when they don't like the results throw it away [/QB]

You are now literally making up shyt.




quote:

... most of the older hypotheses about North African
population settlement used to suppose an Iberian or
an eastern origin. The dates for subhaplogroups H1
and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in
Iberian and North African populations allow for this
possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA
could be viewed as being in agreement with such a
presence in North Africa in ancient times (about
15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North
African populations are considered by most scholars as
having their closest relations with European and Asian
populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009;
Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998).

However, considering the general understanding nowadays
that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged
from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years
ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might
be that their frequencies reflect the original modern
human population of these parts of Africa
as much as
or more than intrusions from outside the continent.

--Frigi et al., 2010


quote:
Our project examined the early human occupation of Morocco in the Upper Pleistocene, with the broad aims of identifying changes in the archaeological and environ-mental records and assessing whether these may be correlated with global climatic events.


[...]

However the exact status of Heinrich Events and Dansgaard-Oeschger cycles in relation to climatic change still needs to be fully clarified and it may be too simplistic to interpret all of these episodes in the same way and purely in terms of major cooling and drying.


[...]


Thus although it seems reasonable to acknowledge a correlation between Heinrich Events and occupation episodes at Taforalt, the case for climate change as a dominant factor in this process cannot be fully tested until further work on reconstructing the palaeoenvironmental sequence has been completed.

www.nerc.ac.uk/research/programmes/efched/results


quote:
Regular Middle Paleolithic inventories as well as Middle Paleolithic inventories of Aterian type have a long chronology in Morocco going back to MIS 6 and are interstratified in some sites. Their potential for detecting chrono-cultural patterns is low. The transition from the Middle to Upper Paleolithic, here termed Early Upper Paleolithic—at between 30 to 20 ka—remains a most enigmatic era. Scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental reconsidering of human presence. By integrating environmental data in the reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Paleolithic deposits, possibly indicative of a very low presence of humans in Morocco. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly with the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna, and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas again shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Paleolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipaleolithic occupation. Therefore, the late glacial cultural sequence of Morocco is a good test case for analyzing the interrelationship of culture and climate change.
--Late Pleistocene Human Occupation of Northwest Africa: A Crosscheck of Chronology and Climate Change in Morocco
Jörg Linstädter, Prehistoric Archaeology, Cologne University, GERMANY Josef Eiwanger, KAAK, German Archaeological Institute, GERMANY Abdessalam Mikdad, INSAP, MOROCCO
Gerd-Christian Weniger, Neanderthal Museum, GERMANY


quote:
North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia.
--On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al.
Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier.


quote:



Given the well-documented fact that human body proportions covary with climate (presumably due to the action of selection), one would expect that the Ipiutak and Tigara Inuit samples from Point Hope, Alaska, would be characterized by an extremely cold-adapted body shape. Comparison of the Point Hope Inuit samples to a large (n > 900) sample of European and European-derived, African and African-derived, and Native American skeletons (including Koniag Inuit from Kodiak Island, Alaska) confirms that the Point Hope Inuit evince a cold-adapted body form, but analyses also reveal some unexpected results. For example, one might suspect that the Point Hope samples would show a more cold-adapted body form than the Koniag, given their more extreme environment, but this is not the case. Additionally, univariate analyses seldom show the Inuit samples to be more cold-adapted in body shape than Europeans, and multivariate cluster analyses that include a myriad of body shape variables such as femoral head diameter, bi-iliac breadth, and limb segment lengths fail to effectively separate the Inuit samples from Europeans. In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.

--Holliday TW, Hilton CE.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Jun;142(2):287-302. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21226.
Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927367

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Ish Geber
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This is some inserting observance by The Explorer on specimen.


quote:
Originally posted by The Explorer:
Recapitulating some personal observations posted elsewhere:

The authors started out with 31 EpiPaleolithic specimens, and they tell the reader that they were left with working with 26 specimens after eliminating certain named specimens for one reason or the other, which was then reduced to first 24 and then 23 specimens. Yet, we come to learn that even those 23 specimens were reduced further down to just 21 specimens that were used in the final analysis. In the above, the authors named yet another two specimens, both alleged to be closely related to one specimen retained in the final analysis; the names of the three related specimen were given above as follows; Taf V-5, Taf V-7 and Taf V-20. One of these, we are not told specifically which one, was to have been considered in the final analysis, while the other two [again, we are not told which two of the three closely related specimens] would have been eliminated from the study.

Perhaps a relatively minor issue, it is of note that Taf V-5's and Taf V-20's fragment sequences start earlier and end earlier than that of Taf V-7, with the former's sequences between positions 16054 and 16317 having been compared against those of the Cambridge Reference Sequence, while the latter's was read from 16081 and 16404; what if mutations in positions prior to 16081 in Taf V-7's case and after 16317 in either Taf V-5's or Taf V-20's case were different from those of either Taf V-5 or Taf V-20, and V-7 respectively; could there be mutations here that could drastically alter what the authors would call the "most likely haplogroups" that these specimens' markers fall into? Something to ponder, but at any rate, along with the earlier named three contaminated specimens, the aforementioned two closely-related specimens would have amounted to five specimens being eliminated, reducing the 31 specimens down to 26. However, the authors provide the reader with a table consisting of 23 individual specimens, and all three of those closely related individuals were in it! What they did not tell the reader, nor did they identify them by name or tag, and hence, possibly leaving an unsuspecting reader scratching his/her head, is that five more specimens were excluded from the study, which were not included in the aforementioned table. These undeclared left-out specimens are namely; Taf VI-9, Taf XVII-18, Taf XIX-7, Taf XXI, and Taf I—missing specimens not named! The reader is not offered explanation on why these were not made part of the study, and so left on his/her own, to wonder what might have been wrong with them. They could have been damaged, degraded or contaminated; any or a combination of any of these could have affected sequences of those specimens. Had the authors therefore eliminated those aforementioned specimens with inconsistent and therefore dubious sequences, they would have been left with fairly small amount of individual DNA material to work with, and even then, the results would not be unequivocal, given that a good deal of their overall sample size would have been purged from the final analysis; the integrity of the so-called "good" DNA would have been put to question as well. Through it all, the authors could not even get themselves to firmly assign the sequences into a specific haplogroup set.

"This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP"


quote:
Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.
--Frigi et al.
Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)


code:
 Geography	                   Founder Analysis


Migration Time (ka) % of L3 Lineages (SE)

East Africa 58.8 74.0 (0.5)

1.8 20.1 (2.6)
0.1 5.9 (2.5)


Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7)
9.2 24.1 (2.8)
0.1 0.9 (0.2)

North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7)
6.6 67.0 (4.0)
0.6 25.7 (3.1)

South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3)
0.1 13.3 (4.3)

South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7)
0.1 16.6 (3.7)

 -


 -



 -

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tukuler
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Ish

Lyin'Ass has never shown any Taforalt
physical remains are equivalent to
any Iberian skulls a/o skeletons.

She cannot do it because it is not so.

This has been demonstrated over and
again in this thread where she failed
miserably to produce the required
evidence.

Why? Because there is none.

She is just going to squawk her nonsense
and act like if her lie is repeated often
enough then like magic it'll be factual.


In the meantime I'd thank you to leave
Herodotus, Eastern Aitiopians, etc.,
out of my thread. There is a already
a 2 pg thread for that. I'll bump it
since the links I gave aren't rerouting
discussion there.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


It's a neat trick to make people think I haven't answered the request even though I have. You have no rebuttal you just ignore tha answer and ask it over and over again, with the long repetative reply copies, destroying the readability of threads

Keep on fronting like you just don't get it like
you don't understand what is required of you.

People aren't as stupid as you think
silly rabbit. The only trickster is the
one who cannot post raw data or
statistics of
* Late Upper Paleolithic or Epipaleolithic
* fossil skull and or skeletal remains
* from Taforalt
* that are the same as Iberia
after blurting out the following reactionary roorag in simplistic fashion:
quote:

Originally posted January 19, 2014

Ish: where are those physical remains of Paleolithic Eurasians in North Africa?
the Lioness: Taforalt

.
And from then (or from 4 yrs ago) until now

U couldn't compare to show
1- Magdalenian Europe/Azilian Pyrenees (Paleolithic Eurasians)
__ crania and skeletons (physical remains) are a match for
2- Maurusian Taforalt (North Africa)

U haven't done it yet
U r not going to try to do it now
cos U can't do it never


Fail, the Lioness,
a big fail 4 u !!!


The dance is done
and u along w/it.
We know u'll keep
repeatin when you
need be retreatin
but this is the end
for you about this

Cro-Magnon North Africans went
out with button up shoes and
your boyfriend Carleton Coon.

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Ish Geber
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!
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Kefi's study is in French
only. Have you read it?



http://www.scribd.com/doc/13401653/P3-Kefi-Et-Al-Anthropologie-2005

^^ French

It could be pasted into a translator, I don't feel like doing it right now. it's kind of long

Thank you for posting this. I was looking for that study for a while.
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Kefi's study is in French
only. Have you read it?



http://www.scribd.com/doc/13401653/P3-Kefi-Et-Al-Anthropologie-2005

^^ French

It could be pasted into a translator, I don't feel like doing it right now. it's kind of long

Thank you for posting this. I was looking for that study for a while.
The Dr. Rym Kefi

Her facial traits are quite interesting.


 -


 -

http://www.picbadges.com/story/12435635_1|2333883/?modal=1



And some of her other "observations". (It's a bit flimsy if you ask me, especially after reading The Explorers evaluation, but hey.)


Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA

http://www.pasteur.fr/~tekaia/BCGA/TALKS/Rym_Kefi.ppt


ATEH: Conférence de Rym Kefi

ATEH Histo - 5 video's - Première conférence des "Rendez vous de l'Association Tunisienne des Etudes Historiques" sur le thème "Être tunisien".

"Les analyses ADN: richesse et spécificité du patrimoine génétique de la population Tunisienne"
23 décembre 2011 au club Taher Hadded.


http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB5DB0D671542C7F9

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Son of Ra
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Keep up the good work guys.
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the lioness,
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 -

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


Her facial traits are quite interesting.


give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread.
Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing

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typeZeiss
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


Her facial traits are quite interesting.


give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread.
Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing

Trollkillah, don't fall for this, its a trap. This thread will turn into a flickr photo war.
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
Trollkillah, don't fall for this, its a trap. This thread will turn into a flickr photo war. [/QB]

Troll's not scared, he loves photo wars

Plus this is not going even going to be a war of photos.

If he puts up photos of the other authors I will accept his selection of photos.
Once the photos are up I want to see if the people in the photos have interesting features.

Your position on berbers is different from Troll's.
He says that the berbers of today are mainly African.
You say because of of the European women that the Turkish and Moroccan pirates kidnapped, that the berbers are mainly European but are mixed with Africans/Turks/Arabs

The largest populations of berbers live in Algeria and Morocco

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


Her facial traits are quite interesting.


give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread.
Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing

I happen to find Kefi's facial traits and profile interesting. If you are interested in the facial traits and profile of other authors, go ahead. And do yo' thang and post them.

P.s. Do not forget to respond to Tukuler. I am sure he has excellent data for you. [Big Grin]

 -


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-94JPcZjS3vw/TvpSJkB1SHI/AAAAAAAAARQ/9M9KUBaktIE/s1600/IMG_2754.jpg

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
 -

quote:
Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:


Her facial traits are quite interesting.


give us a profile of the facial features of the other article authors you have been quoting in this thread.
Let's see if their facial features are also interesting or not interetsing. Put their photos up, I want to see if they are interetsing

Trollkillah, don't fall for this, its a trap. This thread will turn into a flickr photo war.
Of course that's nonsense. But she/ he probably has problems with Kefi her facial traits.


Here look genetics 101, by well known geneticist.


Listen good to the part where she speaks of deep levels of nuclear DNA. And how it wasn't possible to detect earlier on (a few years ago). Yet, we see TMCRA in Kefi's study and not the deep levels of nuclear DNA. Ironically, more recent studies do reveal deep nuclear levels of L mtDNA in modern Berbers. How is that possible? [Big Grin]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eoZG956SgY

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Ru2religious
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by typeZeiss:

North Africa was almost completely black up until about 1100 AD, when the importation of white slaves picked up. Before that, the region was almost completely black. I believe you probably still had some pockets of Roman, Greek, Assyrian, and Persian descended peoples, especially in North Egypt.

It's true that North Africa was often occupied in ancient historic time by European and West Asian conquerors up to the Arab Conquest and European colonization. Something which affected the modern genetic make up of North Africans (as well as the cultural make up, mainly importation of Islam and Arabic languages from the Middle East).

At the earliest time, North Africa was occupied by Aterians, a black Africans culture which are AMH (anatomically modern human). But then migrant from, at the very least, the Iberian region injected European DNA in North Africa (Iberomaurusian culture).

This injection of European DNA in North Africa dates from at least before 10 000 BC if not much earlier (but later than the Aterian, black African, culture). So European DNA exist in North Africa for a very long time.

The current genetic make up of Berber in particular is a consequence of a strong genetic drift event after the "late" arrival of E-M81 from East Africa. Let's not forget than E-M81 is a pretty young haplogroup with a relatively recent expansion(creation) in North Africa. Wikipedia places it at 5,600 years ago.

Personally, and it needs to be verified, I think the genetic "drift" event (which reduced the Berbers DNA diversity) happened after (or during) the admixture of ancient "pre-Berber" population in the Maghreb (people with mtDNA HUV) with East African migrant (people with Y-DNA E-M81 or ancestral to it). It must be a small group of East African migrant because they don't have much ancient E-215 diversity, iirc, as they are almost all E-M81 (as far as E-M215 descendant haplogroups goes). The only other explanation would be that the M215 diversity was lost (instead of never existed) due to the more recent genetic drift event. Further aDNA testing of at least both Y-DNA and MtDNA of ancient North African remains could provide us with more solid data.

I keep posting this quote every time the topic of Berbers popup. In American history and according to their documentation of the slaves it reads:

Chapter One
The Status of the Negro, his Rights and Disabilities


SECTION 4 The term Negro is confined to slave Africans (The ancient Berbers) and their descendants. It does not embrace the free inhabitants of Africa, such as the Egyptians, Moors, or the Negro Asiatics, such as Lascars.

http://genealogytrails.com/scar/negro_law.htm


There are a lot of debate about who the ancient Berbers were and are - but it appears that the ancient Berbers or great population of them may actually be in the Americas traded as slave (prisoners of war).

What's amazing to me is that we do population genetics based on current population not taking into consideration the expulsion of people from their homelands.

History: Papal Bull Dum Diversas (18 June, 1452)

“We weighing all and singular the premises with due meditation, and noting that since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso -- to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit -- by having secured the said faculty, the said King Alfonso, or, by his authority, the aforesaid infante, justly and lawfully has acquired and possessed, and doth possess, these islands, lands, harbors, and seas, and they do of right belong and pertain to the said King Alfonso and his successors”.

I love the study of genetics but history (historical documentation) must be taken into total consideration as well. Many of the lands across the northern shores of Africa were seized by and subdued. Many of the populations were taken to West African and sold to the Americas.

If you look back up to the Carolina negro slave law section for and read what was actually descree by the Papal Bull(s) - it basically reads the same as the decree given to the Portuguese empire.

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Tukuler
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Well at least in 2009 Kefi admitted
Sudan genetics go back to 9k in NA.
But she still didn't 'fess up her
2005 errors about 13k Taforalt
having no non-local African
mtDNA, i.e., L3/M/N per
her own report.

And when we use Kefi2005's raw data,
as sparse as it is, we uncover a 29%
supposedly "SSA" component from
a variety of L haplgroups.


 -

My L assignments were based on Watson (1997)
which was perfectly valid for reviewing 2005
mtDNA sequences. Using Kefi's given HVS-I
motifs there are six L specimens in total.

Updating Watson (1997) via Stefflova (2011)

126C:
Watson's L2 is Stefflova's L2 L2a
Watson's L3a is Stefflova's L4 L4g

298C:
Watson's L3a found in one Yoruba specimen is hg V in Stefflova.
Trovoada (2004) reported 298c in L1c1b1a, maybe as likey as Kefi's prediction
of hg V for TafV 27, that specimen's sole found mutation (pending L1c1b1a's age).


Maurusian cultural industry population
beginnings and so-called SSA mtDNA has
to be questioned in light of climatology.
What were conditions like before 25k?
When was it easy to travel all across Africa?
Of course with the onset of the LGAM it
would be easier for Iberia -> Maghreb
travel than from anywhere in Africa.

H1 & H3 are too young to have been around
for the founding of the Maurusian since H
itself was just aborning at that time.

V is entirely too young for Maurusian
beginnings and is even questionable
for Kefi's 13k date for the Taforalt
osteological remains.

JT however is well old enough to be
present when the Maurusian started.

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the lioness,
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Algeria and Morocco have the largest poulations of berbers

______________________

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008774


Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
2013

Asmahan Bekada,
Rosa Fregel,
Vicente M. Cabrera,
José M. Larruga,
José Pestano,
Soraya Benhamamouch,
Ana M. González


Abstract

North Africa is considered a distinct geographic and ethnic entity within Africa. Although modern humans originated in this Continent, studies of mitochondrial DNA [mtDNA) and Y-chromosome genealogical markers provide evidence that the North African gene pool has been shaped by the back-migration of several Eurasian lineages in Paleolithic and Neolithic times. More recent influences from sub-Saharan Africa and Mediterranean Europe are also evident. The presence of East-West and North-South haplogroup frequency gradients strongly reinforces the genetic complexity of this region. However, this genetic scenario is beset with a notable gap, which is the lack of consistent information for Algeria, the largest country in the Maghreb. To fill this gap, we analyzed a sample of 240 unrelated subjects from a northwest Algeria cosmopolitan population using mtDNA sequences and Y-chromosome biallelic polymorphisms, focusing on the fine dissection of haplogroups E and R, which are the most prevalent in North Africa and Europe respectively. The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome. However, within them, the North African genetic component for mtDNA [U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal [E-M81 and E-V65; 70%). The unexpected presence of the European-derived Y-chromosome lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in Algeria and the rest of the Maghreb could be the counterparts of the mtDNA H1, H3 and V subgroups, pointing to direct maritime contacts between the European and North African sides of the western Mediterranean. Female influx of sub-Saharan Africans into Algeria [20%) is also significantly greater than the male [10%). In spite of these sexual asymmetries, the Algerian uniparental profiles faithfully correlate between each other and with the geography.

Of all North African populations, Eurasian lineages are the most frequent in Algeria [80%) while sub-Saharan Africa origin accounts for the remaining 20%.

Algerian Y-chromosome profile

Results for the sub-typing of haplogroups E-M78 and R-M343 in the Iberian Peninsula and Northwest African countries including Algeria are presented in Figure 1. In general, data for E-M78 agree with the previous analysis [41]. Therefore, the Eurasian E-V13 is the most common sub-group in Iberia, although one North African E-V65 type has also been detected. On the African side, the lack of E-M78 representatives in a total sample of 189 males from the W. Saharan-Mauritanian area is notable. For the Maghreb countries, the fact that the number of males belonging to para-group E-M78* is the same as those included in the autochthonous E-V65 group also stands out.

For the R-M343 subdivision, the Iberian Peninsula reflects a genuine European profile [45] except for the presence of one Sahel R-V88 type. In contrast, all R-M343 detected in W. Saharan-Mauritanian belong to sub-group R-V88, reaching a frequency of 7%, similar to those observed in other Sahel samples [40]. In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%. On the other hand, the presence in this area of representatives of the European sub-groups R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 points to North-South maritime contacts across the Mediterranean.

the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades.

Comparisons between North African and Mediterranean Europe maternal and paternal gene pools [10]–[13] reveal sharp discontinuities and limited gene flow between both areas.Furthermore, Berbers constitute a very heterogeneous group showing significant differences even between geographically close communities [14]–[20]. However, an unexpected lack of differentiation between Berber and Arab speaking communities was found [15], [21]–[23].[


These results suggest that the Arabization phenomenon was mainly an acculturation process of the indigenous Berber population. However, the significantly higher presence of the prominently Arab Y-chromosome J-M267 haplogroup in cosmopolitan compared to rural samples pointed to a substantial male-biased Arab influence in North Africa and the Levant [11], [15], [16], although it is probable that the diffusion of Islam only reinforced previous human displacements [24], [25]. Interestingly, wide geographical longitudinal gradients are detectable overlying local microstructure in North Africa for several uniparental markers [15], [17], [26], [27]. Some of these lineages, such as the mtDNA haplogroups U6 [28]–[30], M1 [29], [31], [32] and X1 [33] had their ancestral roots in the Middle East but expanded in North Africa since Paleolithic times with instances of secondary dispersion in this area. Others, like sub-haplogroup U5b1b [34], sub-haplogroups H1 and H3 [20], [35], [36] and haplogroup V [37] seem to have reached North Africa from Iberia in a post-last glacial maximum expansion. In concordance, an ancient DNA study from Ibero-Maurusian bone remains from Taforalt in Morocco detected the presence of haplogroups U6, V, T and probably H, pointing to a Paleolithic genetic continuity in Northwest Africa [38]. Additionally, male lineages also provide support to a Paleolithic Asia to Africa back migration [39] with Holocene trans-Saharan spreads as testified by the haplogroup R-V88 distribution

The impressive genetic information gathered from North Africa is beset with a notable gap, the lack of consistent information for the Algerian populations. Algeria is the largest country of the Maghreb and, in fact, the largest country of the whole continent. Although at mtDNA sequencing level the first North African sample studied was from an Algerian Berber-speaking Mozabite population [43], it resulted to be a very isolated group not representative of the whole Algerian population.

___________________________________

POPULATION, ALGERIA

35,980,193

________________________

http://www.minorityrights.org/4083/algeria/berbers.html

POPULATION, ALGERIA
BERBERS
Estimated (2004):
Between 6.6 and 9.9 million est.

Ethnicity: Kabyle, Shawiya, Mozabites and Tuareg

First language/s: Tamazight

The Berber culture is not homogenous. Its existing constituent subcultures have relatively little in common outside the common root of their spoken dialects. About half of the Berber-speaking population is concentrated in the mountainous areas east of Algiers – Kabylia – and this area and its language have been at the centre of most Berber issues in modern Algeria. Over time the Kabyles have moved in large numbers to the cities of both Algeria and France in search of employment. The second largest Berber group, the Shawiya, inhabit the rugged mountains of eastern Algeria. Two smaller Berber communities are the Mozabites of the area around Ghardaia and the Tuareg nomads of the south. The 12,000 Tuareg, who are nomadic Berbers, live almost exclusively in the mountainous massifs of Ajjer and Ahaggar in southern Algeria. Geographical dispersion of Berber-speakers has hindered the emergence of a common identity. Kabyles are the most cosmopolitan and are more likely to speak French than other groups.
Most Berbers were Christian prior to the mid-seventh century, when waves of Arab migration into the region brought cultural changes and introduced Islam.
All Berbers, except Mozabites, are Sunni Muslims.

Although rural Berber life remained largely unchanged, those living in the cities saw their language, tribal law and oral literary traditions meld with Arabic traditions. From the eleventh to the fifteenth centuries, forced back into the mountain regions by the city-based sultanates, the Berbers refused to recognize central authority or to pay taxes.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Asmahan Bekada, et al., 2013
Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape

Abstract

The Eurasian component in Algeria reached 80% for mtDNA and 90% for Y-chromosome.
However, within them, the North African genetic component
for mtDNA [U6 and M1; 20%) is significantly smaller than the paternal [E-M81 and E-V65; 70%).

.

The underscored points out that Bekada's
statement speaks to the North African vs
subSaharan Africa dichotomy whereby any
and everything in Africa above 17° N gets
appropriated for Eurasia.

Thus Bekada making her North African
component a subset of the Eurasian
component.

Bekada's percentages as stated are only so
because North Africa and subSaharan Africa
are not one unit Africa vs Eurasia.

North Africa as a part of Eurasia is biased.

When I present Bekada's data North Africa
and subSahara Africa will count as African
since it takes them both to have a continent
Africa.

My correction of the quoted statement:
The Eurasian component in Algeria is 60% for mtDNA and 20% for Y-chromosome,
without the North African genetic components mtDNA U6 & M1 and paternal E-M81 & E-V65.


Algerians are primarily not African?
Not per Bekada's uniparental African raw data.
Algerians are 60% African and 40% non-African.


.

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the lioness,
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http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775


Introducing the Algerian Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Profiles into the North African Landscape
2013

Asmahan Bekada,
Rosa Fregel,
Vicente M. Cabrera,
José M. Larruga,
José Pestano,
Soraya Benhamamouch,
Ana M. González

Algerian Y-chromosome profile

Results for the sub-typing of haplogroups E-M78 and R-M343 in the Iberian Peninsula and Northwest African countries including Algeria are presented in Figure 1. In general, data for E-M78 agree with the previous analysis [41]. Therefore, the Eurasian E-V13 is the most common sub-group in Iberia, although one North African E-V65 type has also been detected. On the African side, the lack of E-M78 representatives in a total sample of 189 males from the W. Saharan-Mauritanian area is notable. For the Maghreb countries, the fact that the number of males belonging to para-group E-M78* is the same as those included in the autochthonous E-V65 group also stands out.

For the R-M343 subdivision, the Iberian Peninsula reflects a genuine European profile [45] except for the presence of one Sahel R-V88 type. In contrast, all R-M343 detected in W. Saharan-Mauritanian belong to sub-group R-V88, reaching a frequency of 7%, similar to those observed in other Sahel samples [40]. In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%. On the other hand, the presence in this area of representatives of the European sub-groups R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 points to North-South maritime contacts across the Mediterranean.

Supplementary Table S6 presents frequencies of Y-chromosome haplogroups, as spread out as possible, for the same countries-areas as performed for the mtDNA analysis. Clearly, markers E-V65, E-M81 and J1-M267 confirm the geographic and ethnic identity of Algeria but, while E-M81 represents an autochthonous group that sharply decreases in Egypt, J1-M267 points to a Levantine influence. Haplogroups G-M201, L-M20, R2-M124, T-M70, J2-M172 and the majority of derived J2 sub-groups all reflect West Asian influences on Europe with only weak inputs on North Africa. On their part, several European I sub-groups also extend to West Asia with minor gene flow to the African countries. Exceptions to this general pattern are the subgroups J2-M67 and R-M412 that have similar frequencies in Algeria as in Europe, and R2-M124 whose frequency in Egypt is not significantly different from the mean value of European and West Asian areas. These geographic influences are graphically reflected in the PCA analysis [Figure 2B]. All the European countries are aligned in a diagonal transect running from the Iberian Peninsula to Turkey and the Caucasus, according to their respective geographic positions, and well separated from the North African countries. Within North Africa, the Maghreb region appears well differentiated from Egypt, which, reflecting its geographical position, is near to the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula. The most influential haplogroups in the first component separation are: E-M81, E-V65 and R-V88 that pull the North African countries together, and J-M172, R-M173, R-M17, R-M124 and R-L23 that pull West Asian countries in the opposite direction. In the second component, haplogroups R-L11, R-M529, R-U198, I-M223 and I-M26 are responsible for the spread of the European Mediterranean countries away from Egypt and Arabia, which in turn are pulled by J-M267, B-M60, E-V22 and E-M123.

Y-chromosome haplogroup J-M267 frequency is also the highest in Algeria. The presence of this clear Middle Eastern haplogroup in other areas has been attributed to prehistoric spreads [25], [79] and to the historic Islamic rule [15]. The localized distribution of the two most common haplotypes found in Algerians belonging to J1-M267 [44] points to an ancient implantation of this cluster in the country. However, the notable incidence of J2-M67 is most probably due to Aegean contacts [79], [80].

The unexpected presence of the European male lineages R-M412, R-S116, R-U152 and R-M529 in the Mahgreb could be the male counterpart of the maternal gene flow signaled by the mtDNA haplogroups H1, H3 and HV0. In fact, there are several haplogroups with clear geographical origins from European or North African sides of the Mediterranean, but also present on the opposite side. This could be used to estimate the respective levels of gene flow between areas, assuming that their present day frequencies in the source countries were the same when they spread to the other Mediterranean shore. Thus, mean frequency values for the native North African male clusters E-M81 and E-V65 in the Maghreb [Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya], are 40.03±11.66 and 3.40±0.60 respectively. The mean values for the same markers in western-central Mediterranean Europe [Iberian Peninsula, France and Corsica, Italy, Sardinia and Sicily] are 1.86±1.28 and 0.26±0.8 respectively. Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. Applying the same reasoning, mtDNA U6 and M1 frequencies on the European side would indicate the maternal gene flow from the Maghreb, the estimated value being around 10%. However, when we tried to calculate the European maternal input into the Maghreb using the H1, H3 and HV0 haplogroups, we realized that their respective mean frequencies in Mediterranean Europe [38.33+4.31, 17.27+3.57 and 5.23+1.06] are within the same range as those found in the Maghreb [42.05+4.92, 13.1+3.51 and 6.99+0.90]. This would imply a 100% European contribution to the maternal pool of the Maghreb. The fact that the three markers show similar frequencies on both sides rules out stochastic processes as a possible explanation, but further analyses, based on complete mtDNA sequences, are mandatory to investigate alternative scenarios.

Genetic and geographic distances faithfully correlate for both uniparental markers [Figure 2], indicating populations from both sides of the Mediterranean remained apart until meeting in the Levant. This similarity allowed us to confront the main maternal and paternal discriminating contributors to the PCAs spatial distribution. Some equivalences are expected such as mtDNA U6a and Y-chromosome E-M81 and E-V65 affecting Maghreb countries, and that the West African mtDNA L clades and Y-chromosome R-V88 pulls W. Saharan-Mauritanian further over, or that the Mediterranean Europe distribution is largely determined by mtDNA and Y-chromosome lineages with origins and/or dispersions within Europe. However, these coincidences only reflect present-day frequencies, not common past histories. Furthermore, in spite of the similarities, differences among male populations are significantly greater than among the female. For instance, the mean FST distance between Algeria and other Maghreb countries for Y-chromosome [0.061] is nearly three times higher than for mtDNA [0.023], 5 times higher when based on distances between Algeria and Europe and nearly 8 times higher when involving Middle East populations. Gender specific demographic features were used to explain these differences [15]. There are also differences in male and female affinities between populations. Thus, Tunisia is the most related to Algeria at mtDNA level but W. Sahara-Mauritania is the closest when using Y-chromosome. Moreover, France is the most distant population from Algeria based on mtDNA but Iberia is the furthest when based on Y-chromosome. Finally, in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is the less related population when comparing maternal profiles, but from the paternal view, the most distant area is the Caucasus. There are also coincidences; Italy is the closest European country to Algeria using both uniparental markers. Again, similarities and differences are apparent between both uniparental markers when differentiated genetic components of Maghreb, Near East, Europe, and west and east sub-Saharan Africa are taking into account. For the sub-Saharan East African component, Arabia and Egypt harbor the highest frequencies for both Y-chromosome and mtDNA. However, in the Maghreb, W. Sahara-Mauritania accumulates the maximum male eastern contribution and Tunisia the female one. Comparing the sub-Saharan West African component, the correspondence between male and female inputs is perfect; Iberia and Italy show the highest influences in Europe, W. Sahara-Mauritania and Libya in North Africa and the Levant and Arabia in the Middle East. For the European component, Iberia, France and Italy have the greatest representation in both uniparental markers, and for the Middle East it is the Caucasus. Nevertheless, in the Maghreb, the European mtDNA contribution in Morocco is the largest whereas Y-chromosome influence peaks in Algeria. Finally, the Middle East component shows congruent values for both markers, the Balkans is the region with the greatest Middle East component in Europe; Egypt has the greatest in North Africa and Iran in the Middle East. A big study concerning Y-chromosome in Iran has been published after this analysis was carried out [81], however haplogroup frequencies for both sets of Iranian samples are rather similar, and we do not think its inclusion would modify largely our conclusions.

Recently, it has been reported that the sub-Saharan African gene flow to Tunisia shows a strong sex bias, involving a significantly larger female contribution [p<0.0001] [15]. The same tendency holds for all North African populations except Libya, which could be attributed to insufficient sampling [19]. However, significance levels are more moderate in all instances; for example, probability values in Algeria [0.025] or in W. Sahara-Mauritania [0.043] are two times lower than for Tunisia. The same sex bias is found in the Middle East, reaching significance in Arabia [p = 0.0005] and in the Caucasus [p = 0.045]. In Europe, only Italy shows significant differences [p<0.0001] for the gender contribution of sub-Saharan Africans but contrarily, in this case, the male input [3.91%] is highest than the female one [1.35%]. On the basis of uniparental markers [82]–[84] and massive genomic analysis [77], [85], the bulk of the sub-Saharan African gene flow has been attributed to historic events such as Romanization, Islamic role and, even more so, the Arab and Atlantic slave trades. A preference for assimilation of females from minority ethnics groups in patriarchal societies has also been put forward [15], [82] to explain the general pattern of sub-Saharan African female integration. The case of Italy could be better explained, at least partially, by more ancient sub-Saharan African inputs into Europe than are thought by several authors to have occurred [83], [84], [86]. However, see Capelli et al. [87] for another point of view. All these uniparental peculiarities could be explained supposing: 1, the existence of several dispersion foci at different times in western Asia, independently influencing the African and European Mediterranean areas; 2, the spread of independent autochthonous lineages in both areas, and 3, bidirectional maritime contacts between areas with minor gene flow.

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Tukuler
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_^_

No comment?
No analysis?
No nothing?

Look. We know how to read the report
so why big ass hunk quotes not even
hi-lited for points of particular interest?


Blind mindless quote mining. [Embarrassed]

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xyyman
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We discussed Bekada already. no data to support his claim. Anything new guys? Also posted here and ESR way back...

J1 is either East African or Yemen NOT European. "IF" it came from Yemen it was >30,000ya!!!

IIRC Bekeda found about 2% R-M69 and 2% Cameroonian R-V88.

He made the rediculous assumption that the 2% R-M269 accompanied the 25% MtDNA H that he saw in Algerian Berbers. Stupid assumption!! He is grasping at straws.

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xyyman
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Come on man! Anything new?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:


J1 is either East African or Yemen NOT European. "IF" it came from Yemen it was >30,000ya!!!


J1 originates in neither East Africa or Yemen, where do you get this stuff? Do you make it up? show me the source, numbers


The Caucus averages over 80%
The highest frequencies of J are found in the Caucus, Dagestan Russia,

Kubachi 99.0% 99.0% 0.0% Balanovsky 2011
Kaitak 85.0% 85.0% 0.0% Balanovsky 2011
Avars 59.0% 58.0% 1.0% Balanovsky 2011
Dargins 70.0% 69.0% 1.0% Balanovsky 2011
Sudan 73%
Yemen 71%

The highest diversity of J1 is in the Zagros/Taurus mountain region (Iran/Iraq) Ciaroni 2010

xyyman stop the nonsense, you are wrong on both frequency and diversity. Why are we going over this again ?

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xyyman
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Ha! Ha! you are grasping.

Here is smething more interesting. If you are really interested in nailing this done.


From my girl Gonzalez et al. Remember that paper where 50% of the aDNA found in Iberia was African mtDNA L. well here is more.

Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome structure at the mediterranean and atlantic façades of the iberian peninsula - Dec2013

South differentiation and larger diversities in the South. In general, mitochondrial DNA haplogroups had mainly Paleolithic and Mesolithic coalescences in Europe, although some of them, ruling out drift effects, seem to have younger implantation in Central Europe and the Atlantic areas than in the Mediterranean (I, J, J2a, T1, and W) while others as N1 and X could have reached the Iberian Peninsula at the Neolithic transition. On the other hand, younger coalescence ages are being proposed for the arriving or spread of the bulk of Y-chromosome lineages in Europe.

CONCLUSIONS:

The major haplotypic affinities found for all the Iberian Peninsula regions were always with North Africa and the Atlantic Islands. over Central Europe. These results draw an Atlantic network that clearly resembles those of the Megalithic Copper and Bronze cultures at this part of Europe.

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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The source of the female European gene pool has been solved. The real puzzle is the male gene pool.

What was/is the demographic scenario for the white male?

Berbers are primarily pure Africans

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KING
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All I can say is that it does not take long for an person to change from white to black or black to white.

Look at the person who is(If they actually produce it) playing the Hyroglyph Pharoah in that series.

1 parent Black and other White:

 -

genocide does not always play a part in a shift in color.

Edit: I could be wrong about his ethnicity, Only thing they say is that his Father is South African(could be Black, White, Euro, or "colored")

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xyyman
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Anyone has the original study??


Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European

A 7,000-year-old man whose bones were left behind in a Spanish cave had the dark skin of an African, but the blue eyes of a Scandinavian. He was a hunter-gatherer who ate a low-starch diet and couldn't digest milk well — which meshes with the lifestyle that predated the rise of agriculture. But his immune system was already starting to adapt to a new lifestyle.

The illustration is funny [Big Grin] [Big Grin] . For those who missed it. Note DERIVED PIGMENTATION!!!! ie Black. Now the question is what proof do they have that he had blue eyes?

 -

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^^^


Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European


quote:
Ancient genomic sequences have started to reveal the origin and the demographic impact of farmers from the Neolithic period spreading into Europe1, 2, 3. The adoption of farming, stock breeding and sedentary societies during the Neolithic may have resulted in adaptive changes in genes associated with immunity and diet4. However, the limited data available from earlier hunter-gatherers preclude an understanding of the selective processes associated with this crucial transition to agriculture in recent human evolution. Here we sequence an approximately 7,000-year-old Mesolithic skeleton discovered at the La Braña-Arintero site in León, Spain, to retrieve a complete pre-agricultural European human genome. Analysis of this genome in the context of other ancient samples suggests the existence of a common ancient genomic signature across western and central Eurasia from the Upper Paleolithic to the Mesolithic. The La Braña individual carries ancestral alleles in several skin pigmentation genes, suggesting that the light skin of modern Europeans was not yet ubiquitous in Mesolithic times. Moreover, we provide evidence that a significant number of derived, putatively adaptive variants associated with pathogen resistance in modern Europeans were already present in this hunter-gatherer.

quote:
Extended Data Figure 1: Alignment and coverage statistics of the La Braña 1 genome.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF1.html

a, Alignment summary of the La Braña 1 sequence data to hg19 assembly. b, Coverage statistics per chromosome. The percentage of the chromosome covered by at least one read is shown, as well as the mean read depth of all positions and positions covered by at least one read. c, Percentage of the genome covered at different minimum read depths.

quote:


Extended Data Figure 2: Damage pattern of La Braña 1 sequenced reads.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF2.html

a, b, Frequencies of C to T (red) and G to A (blue) misincorporations at the 5′ end (left) and 3′ end (right) are shown for the nuclear DNA (nuDNA) (a) and mtDNA (b). c, d, Fragment length distribution of reads mapping to the nuclear genome (c) and mtDNA genome (d). Coefficients of determination (R2) for an exponential decline are provided for the four different data sets. The exponential coefficients for the four data sets correspond to the damage fraction (λ); e is the base of the natural logarithm.

quote:
Extended Data Figure 3: Genetic affinities of the La Braña 1 genome.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF3.html

a, PCA of the La Braña 1 SNP data and the 1000 Genomes Project European individuals. b, PCA of La Braña 1 versus world-wide data genotyped with the Illumina Omni 2.5M array. Continental terms make reference to each Omni population grouping as follows: Africans, Yoruba and Luyha; Asians, Chinese (Beijing, Denver, South, Dai), Japanese and Vietnamese; Europeans, Iberians, Tuscans, British, Finns and CEU; and Indian Gujarati from Texas. c, Each panel shows PC1 and PC2 based on the PCA of one of the ancient samples with the merged POPRES+FINHM sample, before Procrustes transformation. The ancient samples include the La Braña 1 sample and four Neolithic samples from refs 1 and 3.

quote:
Extended Data Figure 4: Allele-sharing analysis.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF4.html

Each panel shows the allele-sharing of a particular Neolithic sample from refs 1 and 3 with La Braña 1 sample. The sample IDs are presented in the upper left of each panel (Ajv52, Ajv70, Ire8, Gok4 and Ötzi). In the upper right of each panel, the Pearson’s correlation coefficient is given with the associated P value.


quote:
Extended Data Figure 5: Pairwise outgroup f3 statistics.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF5.html

a, Sardinian versus Karitiana. b, Sardinian versus Han. c, La Braña 1 versus Mal’ta. d, Sardinian versus Mal’ta. e, La Braña 1 versus Karitiana. The solid line represents y = x.

quote:
Extended Data Figure 6: Analysis of heterozygosity.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF6.html

a, Heterozygosity distributions of La Braña 1 and modern individuals with similar coverage from the 1000 Genomes Project (using 1-Mb windows with 200 kb overlap). CEU, northern- and western-European ancestry. CHB, Han Chinese; FIN, Finns; GBR, Great Britain; IBS, Iberians; JPT, Japanese; LWK, Luhya; TSI, Tuscans; YRI, Yorubans. b, Heterozygosity values in 1-Mb windows (with 200 kb overlap) across each chromosome.

quote:
Extended Data Figure 7: Amylase copy-number analysis.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF7.html

a, Size distribution of diploid control regions. b, AMY1 gene copy number in La Braña 1. CN, copy number; DGV, Database of Genomic Variation. c, La Braña 1 AMY1 gene copy number in the context of low- and high-starch diet populations. d, Classification of low- and high-starch diet individuals based on AMY1 copy number. Using data from ref. 18, individuals were classified as in low-starch (less or equal than) or high-starch (higher than) categories and the fraction of correct predictions was calculated. In addition, we calculated the random expectation and 95% limit of low-starch-diet individuals classified correctly at each threshold value.

quote:

Extended Data Figure 8: Neighbouring variants for three diagnostic SNPs related to immunity.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF8.html

a, rs2745098 (PTX4 gene). b, rs11755393 (UHRF1BP1 gene). c, rs10421769 (GPATCH1 gene). For PTX4, UHRF1BP1 and GPATCH1, La Braña 1 displays the derived allele and the European-specific haplotype, indicating that the positive-selection event was already present in the Mesolithic. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.

quote:
Extended Data Figure 9: Metagenomic analysis of the non-human reads.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/nature12960_SF9.html

a, Domain attribution of the reads that did not map to hg19. b, Proportion of different Bacteria groups. c, Proportion of different types of Proteobacteria. d, Microbial attributes of the microbes present in the La Braña 1 sample.

Iñigo Olalde, Morten E. Allentoft, Federico Sánchez-Quinto, Gabriel Santpere, Charleston W. K. Chiang, Michael DeGiorgio, Javier Prado-Martinez, Juan Antonio Rodríguez, Simon Rasmussen, Javier Quilez, Oscar Ramírez, Urko M. Marigorta, Marcos Fernández-Callejo, María Encina Prada, Julio Manuel Vidal Encinas, Rasmus Nielsen, Mihai G. Netea, John Novembre, Richard A. Sturm, Pardis Sabeti, Tomàs Marquès-Bonet, Arcadi Navarro, Eske Willerslev & Carles Lalueza-Fox

AffiliationsContributionsCorresponding authors

Nature (2014) doi:10.1038/nature12960

Received 22 October 2013 Accepted 17 December 2013 Published online 26 January 2014

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature12960.html

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Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Anyone has the original study??


Derived immune and ancestral pigmentation alleles in a 7,000-year-old Mesolithic European

A 7,000-year-old man whose bones were left behind in a Spanish cave had the dark skin of an African, but the blue eyes of a Scandinavian. He was a hunter-gatherer who ate a low-starch diet and couldn't digest milk well — which meshes with the lifestyle that predated the rise of agriculture. But his immune system was already starting to adapt to a new lifestyle.

The illustration is funny [Big Grin] [Big Grin] . For those who missed it. Note DERIVED PIGMENTATION!!!! ie Black. Now the question is what proof do they have that he had blue eyes?

 -

 -




quote:
This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
--J. L. Escacena Carrasco


Prehistoric Iberia
2000, pp 125-162

Applications of Evolutive Archeology: Migrations from Africa to Iberia in the Recent Prehistory


http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-4231-5_6

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the lioness,
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He has interetsing features
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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
He has interetsing features

Yeah, indeed, a bit cartoonish.


 -


quote:
Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm


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xyyman
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Thanks TP. Will get to work on this.

Do anyone grasp the significance of this?????

5000bc the dominant skin tone in Southern Europe was black!!!!
Don't you get it? They haven't revealed the yDNA in the abstract. There was no mention of the genetic profile which makes them concluded he had blue eyes. Was it Herc 2 or some other gene. So what makes anyone think Berbers or AEian was anything but black Africans. Ha! Ha! Ha!

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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xyyman
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Remember Otzi was first said to have blue eyes then that was changed to brown/black eyes. And did NOT have the infamous slc45 white gene Lol!

Lying delusional Europeans!!!!


It is simple logic and common sense Iberia, Greece and Rome is next door to Africa what do they expect. Lol!

I don't believe the blue eye story , need to read the original paper and supplementals.

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xyyman
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As I said. The real intrigue is unravelling R-M269- s116

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Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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