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African languages did not originate in Eastern Africa. The archaeological evidence indicates that the Khoisan speakers originated in Southern Africa, while Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo originated in the Highlands of the Sahara.
Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1]. Drake et al [1] provides evidence that the original settlers of this wet Sahara, who used aquatic tool kits, were Nilo-Saharan (NS) speakers. The authors also recognized another Saharan culture that played a role in the peopling of the desert. This population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associated with the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian culture existed 12kya [2].
The Ounanians were members of the Capsian population.There was continuity between the populations in the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, and Mechtoids [3]. The Niger-Congo speakers are decendants of the Capsian population.
Capsian people did not only live in Afrca, they were also present in South Asia. Using craniometric data researchers have made it clear that the Dravidian speakers of South India and the Indus valley were primarily related to the ancient Capsian or Mediterranean population [4-9]. Lahovary [7] and Sastri [8] maintains that the Capsian population was unified over an extensive zone from Africa, across Eurasia into South India. Some researchers maintain that the Capsian civilization originated in East Africa [7].
The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger [10]. The Ounanian tradition is probably associated with the Niger-Congo phyla. This would explain the close relationship between the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan languages.
The original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period. From here NC populations migrated into the Fezzan, Nile Valley and Sudan as their original homeland became more and more arid.
In summary, the Niger-Congo speakers formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. Originally hunter-gatherers the Proto-Niger- Congo people developed an agro-pastoral economy which included the cultivation of millet, and domestication of cattle (and sheep).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1].
Of course, Niger-Congo speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara during the green Sahara period, along with other people. But before the Green Sahara period, the Sahara was a desert so Niger-Congo speakers had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is Eastern Africa. The homeland of the Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) language family. The same region as other modern language families in Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1].
Of course, Niger-Congo speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara during the green Sahara period, along with other people. But before the Green Sahara period, the Sahara was a desert so Niger-Congo speakers had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is Eastern Africa. The homeland of the Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) language family. The same region as other modern language families in Africa.
There is no archaeological evidence for Niger-Congo existing in East Africa. before you can reach this conclusion you need archaeological evidence--evidence which does not exist.
Lets look at the evidence. Megadroughts have influenced most out of Africa (OoA) events between 125-70kya. Although this is the case, the earliest migrations into the Levant originated in West and Northwest Africa 100kya. Coulthard et al (2013) wrote
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now buried palaeo river systems could have been active at the key time of human migration across the Sahara. Unexpectedly, it is the most western of these three rivers, the Irharhar river, that represents the most likely route for human migration. The Irharhar river flows directly south to north, uniquely linking the mountain areas experiencing monsoon climates at these times to temperate Mediterranean environments where food and resources would have been abundant.
Uniquely, the Irharhar extends from humid to humid climes - ranging from the monsoonal Ahaggar and Tibesti region to the North Western Mediterranean climate zone that also received substantial winter rainfall (Fig. 1). High humidity in the destination region during the last interglacial is confirmed by the presence of significant water near the Chott Melrir basin [39]. Whilst the more extensive Sahabi and Kufrah also traverse the Sahara, their downstream limits remain within the arid/semi-arid regions
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Support for the significance of the Irharhar river corridor is provided by the high number of Middle Stone Age archaeological sites concentrated in the western region (Fig. 2). Many of these locations contain Levallois lithic artefacts with Aterian affinities that on comparative grounds can be plausibly dated to the last Interglacial [41], [42]. It is highly likely given the existing artefact distributions that humans migrated northwards from the relatively humid Trans-Saharan mountainous zones to the Maghrebian Mediterranean biome (Fig. 2). The loose clustering of sites along our simulated Irharhar river and associated channels implies this as a preferred route of dispersal
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The Irharhar river emptied into the ancient Niger river which flowed into the Saharan Highlands.
As I have pointed out earlier the Ounanian culture was the Proto-culture of the Niger-Congo. The Ounanian sites are found in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger.
This is why the most ancient civilization of Middle Africa--the Maa civilization existed in the sahara. there was no civilization in East Africa, except culture taken there by people from Nubia.
The Saharan Highlands remained humid until after 4000 BC. As a result, there was no reason for the Niger-Congo speakers to live in East Africa.
Moreover, as you know, the majority of cultures that moved into Arabia originate in Nubia. The migration pattern has always been west to east.
Before Egypt: The Maa Confederation, Africa's first Civilization
Buy my new book on the first great civilization of Africa titled: Before Egypt: The Maa Confederation, Africa's First Civilization.
European researchers asked Africans if a great civilization formerly existed in Africa and they were told yes. The name they gave this great civilization was Maa.
In this book Dr. Clyde Winters will discuss the history and anthropology of Africa’s first civilization : The Maa Confederation. The Maa Confederation was the original homeland of the Egyptians, Mande, Sumerians , Elamites and Dravidian speaking people. I call these people Proto-Saharans or Maaites. They worshipped Seth and Amon/Amma.
Dr. Clyde Winters is an anthropologist and educator. He has taught Education and Linguistic courses at Governors State University and Saint Xavier University-Chicago.
Clyde you say " European researchers asked Africans if a great civilization formerly existed in Africa and they were told yes. The name they gave this great civilization was Maa."
which European researchers recorded Africans naming a civilization called Maa?
Also what is the earliest archaelogical remains of a Maa culture?
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Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1].
Of course, Niger-Congo speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara during the green Sahara period, along with other people. But before the Green Sahara period, the Sahara was a desert so Niger-Congo speakers had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is Eastern Africa. The homeland of the Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) language family. The same region as other modern language families in Africa.
There is no archaeological evidence for Niger-Congo existing in East Africa. before you can reach this conclusion you need archaeological evidence--evidence which does not exist. .
You're wrong and avoiding the main linguistic and genetic evidences. There's indeed archaeological evidence of human occupation in eastern Africa in that approximate time period. Of course archaeology can't tells us directly the language of any people. But linguistic and genetic evidence is clear. Niger-Congo speakers, along with other modern languages spoken in Africa, originated in Eastern Africa. Niger-Congo people carry the E-P2(PN2)/M2/V38 haplogroups in large proportion and those haplogroups have their origin in the eastern African region. Even Ramses III is determined to be E1b1a. So both linguistic and genetic knowledge point out in the same direction for the origin of modern Niger-Congo speakers.
quote: Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa , as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .
-- from A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms (Trombetta 2011)
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Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1].
Of course, Niger-Congo speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara during the green Sahara period, along with other people. But before the Green Sahara period, the Sahara was a desert so Niger-Congo speakers had to come from somewhere and that somewhere is Eastern Africa. The homeland of the Niger-Congo (Niger-Kordofanian) language family. The same region as other modern language families in Africa.
Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa , as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .
-- from A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms (Trombetta 2011)
I disagree. Below are 15 points that support a Saharan--not East African origin of the Niger-Congo speakers.
1. The Proto-Niger Congo population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associated with the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian culture existed 12kya [2].
2. The Ounanians were members of the Capsian population.There was continuity between the populations in the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Capsians, Iberomaurusians, and Mechtoids [3].
3. The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger. There are no East African sites. . 4. The original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands.
5. Proto-Niger- Congo people developed an agro-pastoral economy which included the cultivation of millet, and domestication of cattle (and sheep).
6. The Niger-Congo speakers probably began to exit the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period. By the 8th millennium BC Saharan-Sudanese pottery was used in the Air [22]. Ceramics of this style have also been found at sites in the Hoggar [22-23]. Dotted wavy-line pottery has also been discovered in the Libyan Sahara [22]. Again no sites are found in East Africa.
7. They migrated from the Highlands into Nubia.
7a. Genetic evidence supports the upper Nile settlement for the Niger-Congo speakers. Rosa et al, in a paper discussing the y-Chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau, noted that while most Mande & Balanta carry the E3a-M2 gene, there are a number of Felupe-Djola, Papel, Fulbe and Mande carry the M3b*-M35 gene the same as many non-Niger-Congo speaking people in the Sudan.
8. They were the C-Group people.
9. Researchers have conclusively proven that the Dravidians are related to the Niger-Congo speaking group and they originally lived in Nubia [7]. The Dravidians and C-Group people of Nubia used 1) a common BRW [7]; 2) a common burial complex incorporating megaliths and circular rock enclosures [7] and 3) a common type of rock cut sepulcher [7] and writing system [50-51].
10. The BRW industry diffused from Nubia, across West Asia into Rajastan, and thence to East Central and South India [30]. Singh [30] made it clear that he believes that the BRW radiated from Nubia through Mesopotamia and Iran southward into India
11. The mtDNA haplogroups L1, L2, L3 and U5 are associated with Niger-Congo speakers. Phylogenetically all the Eurasian mtDNA branches descend from L3. The Pan-African haplotypes are 16189,16192,16223, 16278,16294, 16309, qnd 16390. This sequence is found in the L2a1 haplotype which is highly frequent among the Mande speaking group and the Wolof.
12. The phylogeography of y-Chromosome haplotypes shared among the Niger-Congo speakers include A,B, Elb1a, E1b1b, E2, E3a and R1 [57] (See: Figures 1-2). The predominate y-Chromosome among the Niger-Congo is M2, M35, and M33.
Haplogroup E has three branches carried by Niger-Congo populations E1, E2 and E3. The E1 and E2 clines are found exclusively in Africa. Haplogroup E3 is also found in Eurasia. Haplogroup E3 subclades are E3b, E-M78, E-M81 and E-M34. The E clades probably originated in Saharan Africa. This is based on the fact that the Niger-Congo people carry this haplogroup at high frequencies.
The majority of Niger-Congo speakers belong to E1b1a, Elb1b, E2 and R1. Around 90% belong to y-Chromosome group E (215,M35*).
Y-Chromosome haplogroup A is represented among Niger-Congo speakers. In West Africa, under 5% of the NC speakers belong to group A. Most Niger-Congo speakers who belong to group A are found in East Africa and belong to A3b2-M13: Kenya (13.8) and Tanzanian (7.0%).
13. The Bantu originated in Saharan Africa not East Africa. The Bantu expansion is usually associated with the spread of y-Chromosome E3a-M2. The most common branch of the V-38 haplogroup is E-M2. E-M2 dates to around 25ky old. It probably originated in the Highland area during the Ounanian period.
14. Some researchers claim that: “The downstreams SNP E-M180 possibly originated on the moist south-central Saharan savannah/grassland of northern West Africa during the early Holocene period. Much of the population that carried E-M2 retreated to southern West Africa with the drying of the Sahara. These later people migrated from Southeastern Nigeria and Cameroon ~8.0 kya to Central Africa, East Africa, and Southern Africa causing or following the Bantu expansion.[4][5][6] According to Wood et al. (2005) and Rosa et al. (2007), such population movements from West Africa changed the pre-existing population Y chromosomal diversity in Western, Central, Southern and southern East Africa, replacing the previous haplogroups frequencies in these areas with the now dominant E1b1a1 lineages.” See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38 “ In Kenya the frequentcy for E3a-M2 is 52%; and 42% in Tanzania. In Burkina Faso high frequentcies of E-M2* and E-M191* are also represented. It is interesting to note that among the Mande speaking Bisa and Mandekan there are high frequentcies of E-M2*. This is in sharp contrast to the Marka and South Samo who have high frequencies of E-M33.
15. The pristine form of R1-M173 is found in Africa. Y-Chromosome R is characterized by M207/ V45. The V45 mutation is found among NC speakers. The R1b mutations include V7, V8, V45, V69 and V88. The frequentcy of R1-M173 varies among Niger-Congo speakers. The frequentcy of R-M173 range between 3-54%. The most frequent subtype in Africa is V88 (R1b1a). Haplogroup R1b1a ranges between 2-20% among the Bantu speakers.The highest frequentcy of R1 is found among Fulbe or Fulani speakers
Please outline the evidence of the East African origin of Niger-Congo, cite the evidence of an East African or Northeastern civilization that did not originate in Nubia.
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^^^You post a long list of true statements, false statements and personal opinions, then try to turn the table on me but you are still avoiding the main linguistic and genetic evidences exposed in this thread and which can easily be consulted from scientific literature. In general, it doesn't contradict the finding that Niger-Congo speakers along with the other modern language families in Africa had their origin in Eastern Africa then migrated toward the green Sahara with the northward shift of rain, sub-saharan African flora, fauna and the human populations following them (following their water, flora and fauna resources). The same location as their genetic origin. Let's note that it was mostly a gradual northward shift of rain, flora, fauna, humans not a southward shift of rain, flora and fauna. Before the green Sahara period, in the late Pleistocene, the Sahara was a desert, so it comes to the reason that Niger-Congo speakers as well as Nilo-Saharans and others must have come from somewhere before that period and that somewhere according to current science is eastern Africa. That was a time before the green Sahara period.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^You post a long list of true statements, false statements and personal opinions, then try to turn the table on me but you are still avoiding the main linguistic and genetic evidences exposed in this thread and which can easily be consulted from scientific literature. In general, it doesn't contradict the finding that Niger-Congo speakers along with the other modern language families in Africa had their origin in Eastern Africa then migrated toward the green Sahara with the northward shift of rain, sub-saharan African flora, fauna and the human populations following them (following their water, flora and fauna resources). The same location as their genetic origin. Let's note that it was mostly a gradual northward shift of rain, flora, fauna, humans not a southward shift of rain, flora and fauna. Before the green Sahara period, in the late Pleistocene, the Sahara was a desert, so it comes to the reason that Niger-Congo speakers as well as Nilo-Saharans and others must have come from somewhere before that period and that somewhere according to current science is eastern Africa. That was a time before the green Sahara period.
My research is not based on opinion. The Niger Congo speakers mainly carry E-M2, modern researchers agree that this haplogroup originated in West Africa and the Sahara as I pointed out in my earlier post.
quote: 13. The Bantu originated in Saharan Africa not East Africa. The Bantu expansion is usually associated with the spread of y-Chromosome E3a-M2. The most common branch of the V-38 haplogroup is E-M2. E-M2 dates to around 25ky old. It probably originated in the Highland area during the Ounanian period.
14. Some researchers claim that: “The downstreams SNP E-M180 possibly originated on the moist south-central Saharan savannah/grassland of northern West Africa during the early Holocene period. Much of the population that carried E-M2 retreated to southern West Africa with the drying of the Sahara. These later people migrated from Southeastern Nigeria and Cameroon ~8.0 kya to Central Africa, East Africa, and Southern Africa causing or following the Bantu expansion.[4][5][6] According to Wood et al. (2005) and Rosa et al. (2007), such population movements from West Africa changed the pre-existing population Y chromosomal diversity in Western, Central, Southern and southern East Africa, replacing the previous haplogroups frequencies in these areas with the now dominant E1b1a1 lineages.” See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38 “ In Kenya the frequentcy for E3a-M2 is 52%; and 42% in Tanzania. In Burkina Faso high frequentcies of E-M2* and E-M191* are also represented. It is interesting to note that among the Mande speaking Bisa and Mandekan there are high frequentcies of E-M2*. This is in sharp contrast to the Marka and South Samo who have high frequencies of E-M33.
Your problem is that you don't respect the fact that the african population is not generic. Although you have been taught that their were several homonids before homo sapien sapien, i.e., Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus and finally anatomically modern humans.
Although you assume there was only one anatomically moderh human (amh) population. The archaeological evidence indicates that the first amh African population was the Australians, next the Khoisan, followed by the pgymies and climaxed by the niger-Congo, nilo-saharan and etc,. contemporary populations. the first evidence of Niger-Congo speakers comes from the Saharan zone. as a result, we can assume they probably originated in the Saharan highlands 10-20kya. rom here they migrated to other parts of africa.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] [The Niger Congo speakers mainly carry E-M2, modern researchers agree that this haplogroup originated in West Africa and the Sahara as I pointed out in my earlier post.
Let's be clear, haplogroup E-M2 (and it's parent haplogroup E-P2) carried by a lot of Niger-Congo speakers has its origin in Eastern Africa. Which happens, most logically, to be the geographical location of the language family itself as well as all the other language families spoken in Africa.
quote: Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa , as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] [The Niger Congo speakers mainly carry E-M2, modern researchers agree that this haplogroup originated in West Africa and the Sahara as I pointed out in my earlier post.
Let's be clear, haplogroup E-M2 (and it's parent haplogroup E-P2) carried by a lot of Niger-Congo speakers has its origin in Eastern Africa. Which happens, most logically, to be the geographical location of the language family itself as well as all the other language families spoken in Africa.
quote: Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa , as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .
This paper does not claim that E-M2 originated in eastern Africa, it claims that the common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 originated in eastern Africa. We know that E-M2 probably originated in West Africa, because whereas 80% of Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa carry E-M2 and 60% in Central Africa, E-M2 is "virtually absent" in eastern Africa.
Descent from a common ancestor does not mean a phenomena originated in the same area. We know that Australopithecus and homo sapiens have common descent from Ramapithecus in South Africa but no one would claim that anatomically modern humans originated in the same location as Ramapithecus.
This paper does not contradict what i wrote previously.
quote: 13. The Bantu originated in Saharan Africa not East Africa. The Bantu expansion is usually associated with the spread of y-Chromosome E3a-M2. The most common branch of the V-38 haplogroup is E-M2. E-M2 dates to around 25ky old. It probably originated in the Highland area during the Ounanian period.
14. Some researchers claim that: “The downstreams SNP E-M180 possibly originated on the moist south-central Saharan savannah/grassland of northern West Africa during the early Holocene period. Much of the population that carried E-M2 retreated to southern West Africa with the drying of the Sahara. These later people migrated from Southeastern Nigeria and Cameroon ~8.0 kya to Central Africa, East Africa, and Southern Africa causing or following the Bantu expansion.[4][5][6] According to Wood et al. (2005) and Rosa et al. (2007), such population movements from West Africa changed the pre-existing population Y chromosomal diversity in Western, Central, Southern and southern East Africa, replacing the previous haplogroups frequencies in these areas with the now dominant E1b1a1 lineages.” See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V38 “ In Kenya the frequentcy for E3a-M2 is 52%; and 42% in Tanzania. In Burkina Faso high frequentcies of E-M2* and E-M191* are also represented. It is interesting to note that among the Mande speaking Bisa and Mandekan there are high frequentcies of E-M2*. This is in sharp contrast to the Marka and South Samo who have high frequencies of E-M33.
E-M2 probably originated in the Saharan highlands where the Ounanian civilization --the Proto-Culture of the Niger-Congo speakers originated.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This paper does not claim that E-M2 originated in eastern Africa, it claims that the common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 originated in eastern Africa.
If genetic studies show us the common ancestors to E-M2 and Niger-Congo speakers originated in Eastern Africa, as you say, then I made my case. QED. Thanks. The E-M2 ancestors then migrated to the green Sahara and eventually West Africa and southern Africa.
In this context, it doesn't really matter if Niger-Congo speakers ancestors migrated to East Africa before or after the M2 mutation appeared. I just need to physically place the ancestor of Niger-Congo speakers, as well as other Africans, in Eastern Africa. Logically enough the same location as the geographic origin of their language phyla. Which is what both genetic and linguistic analysis show us.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: This paper does not claim that E-M2 originated in eastern Africa, it claims that the common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 originated in eastern Africa.
If genetic studies show us the common ancestors to E-M2 and Niger-Congo speakers originated in Eastern Africa, as you say, then I made my case. QED. Thanks. The E-M2 ancestors then migrated to the green Sahara and eventually West Africa and southern Africa.
In this context, it doesn't really matter if Niger-Congo speakers ancestors migrated to East Africa before or after the M2 mutation appeared. I just need to physically place the ancestor of Niger-Congo speakers, as well as other Africans, in Eastern Africa. Logically enough the same location as the geographic origin of their language phyla. Which is what both genetic and linguistic analysis show us.
We can agree that the ancestor of E-M2 probably in East Africa, but it was not the place for the origin of Niger-Congo speakers.Nor can East Africa be the place of origin for all Africans.
The LOd haplogroup originated in southern Africa and early appeared in West Africa. The Khoisan originated in South Africa. The pgymies probably originated in Chad, and the Niger-Congo/Nilo-Saharan speakers in the Highlands of the Sahara.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] This paper does not claim that E-M2 originated in eastern Africa, it claims that the common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 originated in eastern Africa.
If genetic studies show us the common ancestors to E-M2 and Niger-Congo speakers originated in Eastern Africa, as you say, then I made my case. QED. Thanks. The E-M2 ancestors then migrated to the green Sahara and eventually West Africa and southern Africa.
In this context, it doesn't really matter if Niger-Congo speakers ancestors migrated to East Africa before or after the M2 mutation appeared. I just need to physically place the ancestor of Niger-Congo speakers, as well as other Africans, in Eastern Africa. Logically enough the same location as the geographic origin of their language phyla. Which is what both genetic and linguistic analysis show us.
We can agree that the ancestor of E-M2 probably in East Africa, but it was not the place for the origin of Niger-Congo speakers.Nor can East Africa be the place of origin for all Africans.
That's your opinion not the opinion held by other linguists like Ehret for example as we can see from the quote I used to start this thread.
quote: The LOd haplogroup originated in southern Africa and early appeared in West Africa. The Khoisan originated in South Africa. The pgymies probably originated in Chad, and the Niger-Congo/Nilo-Saharan speakers in the Highlands of the Sahara.
This thread doesn't involve Mbuti-like people (of small stature) since they now speak Bantu languages. According to the quote used to start this thread the Khoisan languages also originated in Eastern Africa although it must be at an earlier date than the other language phylum. I didn't study the Khoisan issue very much, but imo, they indeed were from Eastern Africa but migrated out of the region at time much earlier than the modern descendants of other language families in Africa.
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CLyde says: he archaeological evidence indicates that the first amh African population was the Australians..
Clarification needed. How are Australians an African population? And how do Australians come before say Niger-Congo people or Khosians in Africa?
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Australians are negroes. Negroes originated in Africa. Thus they are an African people.
Australians are older than Niger-Congo people because as illustrated by the brow ridges which date back to early man.
It was the glacial period which made it possible for the Australians to walk to Australia because of the evaporation of oceans during this dry period. Moreover the dominant homo population in Europe was Neanderthal.
The straight hair hair of groups such as the Australians and East indians (Dravidians) probably originated in Africa.
The ancestors of these groups probably lived in periglacial regions of Africa where straight hair probably evolved. .
. The Dravidians for example were part of the Maa Confederation and lived in the highland areas of Middle Africa like the Tibesti, until after the great flood when they migrated out of the highlands into the valley regions, and thence to Asia, where along with the Mande speakers the Dravidians expanded into Iran, India and eventually China.
The Australians reflect the first migrants from Africa. They reflect this population because they have traits common to early homosapien sapiens, e.g., Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges so we can assume that this population is associated with the OOA event 60kya.
The original migrants out of Africa had different features than the contemporary Africans.
Here is a contemporary Africans
You can clearly see differences between the Australian and African type; while both individuals are described as Negroes you will note that the forehead of the Australian matches in many ways the cranium of earlier hominid forms dating back to the rise of homo sapiens sapiens in Africa.
In addition, Australians have curly, wavy or straight hair and abundant body hair. Although these traits are common to the Australians—some researchers interpret them as Caucasoid—when clearly that were present among the Australians millenia before they engaged European explorers and settlers of Australia.
This indicates that straight hair was a characteristic of early Africans. A trait maintained by East Indians and other African populations today.
Laubenfels argues that the Australians are remnants of the original African migration to the region 60kya . This view is supported by David Bulbeck who found that the Australian craniometrics are different from the Mongoloid (Polynesian), and Melanoid crania metrics .
The Australian aborigines and Melanesians show cranonical variates and represent two distinct Black populations. Laubenfiels explained that Negroids/Melanoids such as the Tasmanians are characterized by wooly black hair and sparse body hair . Australoids or Australians on the otherhand have curly, wavy or straight hair and abundant body hair. Other differences between these Black populations include Negroid / Melanoid brows being vertical and without eyebrow ridges, whereas Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges
This research indicates that whereas Australian aborigine crania agree with the archaic population of Asia and first group of Africans to exit Africa, they fail to correspond to the Sahulland crania which are distinctly of Southwest Pacific or Melanoid affinity . This suggests that by the rise of Sahulland there were two distinct Black populations in Asia one Austroloid and the other Melanoid .
The major problem is that researchers assign specific physical traits to Africans , Europeans and Mongoloids—which are common to African populations generally. This has led some researchers to reflect on the light skin of the Khoisan, and straight hair of the Australians and then take this evidence to indicate some association with Caucasoids—when in reality diverse African populations possessed these characteristics.
We must accept the fact that the physical traits of Africans have always varied and the appearance of so-called “white features” among blacks has nothing to do with admixture with Europeans.
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In summary the straight hair of Africans relate to living in the periglacial regions of Africa before the great glaciers melted completely.
D.J de Laubenfels discussed the variety of Blacks found in Asia. He noted that Australoid brows are sloping and with prominent ridges .Laubenfels argues that the Australians are remnants of the original African migration to the region 60kya . This view is supported by David Bulbeck who found that the Australian craniometrics are different from the Mongoloid (Polynesian), and Melanoid crania metrics . This research indicates that Australian aborigine crania agree with the archaic population of Asia and first group of Africans to exit Africa.
Further Reading;
D.J. Laubenfels, Australoids, Negroids and Negroes: A suggested explanation for their distinct distributions. Annals Association of Am. Geographers, 58(1), 1968: 42-50. 4.
David Bulbeck, Australian Aboriginal craniometrics as construed through FORDISC, 2005. Retrieved: 4/2/2008: http://arts.anu.edu.au/bu...
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] This paper does not claim that E-M2 originated in eastern Africa, it claims that the common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 originated in eastern Africa.
If genetic studies show us the common ancestors to E-M2 and Niger-Congo speakers originated in Eastern Africa, as you say, then I made my case. QED. Thanks. The E-M2 ancestors then migrated to the green Sahara and eventually West Africa and southern Africa.
In this context, it doesn't really matter if Niger-Congo speakers ancestors migrated to East Africa before or after the M2 mutation appeared. I just need to physically place the ancestor of Niger-Congo speakers, as well as other Africans, in Eastern Africa. Logically enough the same location as the geographic origin of their language phyla. Which is what both genetic and linguistic analysis show us.
We can agree that the ancestor of E-M2 probably in East Africa, but it was not the place for the origin of Niger-Congo speakers.Nor can East Africa be the place of origin for all Africans.
That's your opinion not the opinion held by other linguists like Ehret for example as we can see from the quote I used to start this thread.
quote: The LOd haplogroup originated in southern Africa and early appeared in West Africa. The Khoisan originated in South Africa. The pgymies probably originated in Chad, and the Niger-Congo/Nilo-Saharan speakers in the Highlands of the Sahara.
This thread doesn't involve Mbuti-like people (of small stature) since they now speak Bantu languages. According to the quote used to start this thread the Khoisan languages also originated in Eastern Africa although it must be at an earlier date than the other language phylum. I didn't study the Khoisan issue very much, but imo, they indeed were from Eastern Africa but migrated out of the region at time much earlier than the modern descendants of other language families in Africa.
You can accept Ehret's view if you wish. We will just disagree on this matter.
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Australians are negroes. Negroes originated in Africa. Thus they are an African people.
Australians are older than Niger-Congo people because as illustrated by the brow ridges which date back to early man.
It was the glacial period which made it possible for the Australians to walk to Australia because of the evaporation of oceans during this dry period. Moreover the dominant homo population in Europe was Neanderthal.
Yes about 3% to 5% of the DNA of Melanesians and Australian Aborigines derive from Denisovans, a simiilar to Neanderthals, remains found in Siberia
Forensic anthropologist Caroline Wilkenson said that Australoids have the largest brow ridges "with moderate to large supraorbital arches", Caucasoids have the second largest brow ridges with "moderate supraorbital ridges",Negroids have the third largest brow ridges with an "undulating supraorbital ridge" and Mongoloids are "absent browridges".
Somali
. Indians
Austrailian Aboriginal
Clyde, if you were to say that a negro by definition has kinky hair and dark skin that is relatively simpler to apply.
But once you say straight haired Austrailian Aboriginals are negroes on what basis do you say that - because above are some people lincluding similarly dark skinned Indians who come from a country much much closer to Africa, yet I suspect you would not call them negroes. It seems arbitrary.
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Can you guys keep this thread to be about the geographical origin of African language families?
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A researcher analyzing the sounds in languages spoken around the world has detected an ancient signal that points to southern Africa as the place where modern human language originated.
The finding fits well with the evidence from fossil skulls and DNA that modern humans originated in Africa. It also implies, though does not prove, that modern language originated only once, an issue of considerable controversy among linguists.
The detection of such an ancient signal in language is surprising. Because words change so rapidly, many linguists think that languages cannot be traced very far back in time. The oldest language tree so far reconstructed, that of the Indo-European family, which includes English, goes back 9,000 years at most.
Quentin D. Atkinson, a biologist at the University of Auckland in New Zealand, has shattered this time barrier, if his claim is correct, by looking not at words but at phonemes — the consonants, vowels and tones that are the simplest elements of language. Dr. Atkinson, an expert at applying mathematical methods to linguistics, has found a simple but striking pattern in some 500 languages spoken throughout the world: A language area uses fewer phonemes the farther that early humans had to travel from Africa to reach it.
Some of the click-using languages of Africa have more than 100 phonemes, whereas Hawaiian, toward the far end of the human migration route out of Africa, has only 13. English has about 45 phonemes.
This pattern of decreasing diversity with distance, similar to the well-established decrease in genetic diversity with distance from Africa, implies that the origin of modern human language is in the region of southwestern Africa, Dr. Atkinson says in an article published on Thursday in the journal Science.
Language is at least 50,000 years old, the date that modern humans dispersed from Africa, and some experts say it is at least 100,000 years old. Dr. Atkinson, if his work is correct, is picking up a distant echo from this far back in time.
Linguists tend to dismiss any claims to have found traces of language older than 10,000 years, “but this paper comes closest to convincing me that this type of research is possible,” said Martin Haspelmath, a linguist at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.
Dr. Atkinson is one of several biologists who have started applying to historical linguistics the sophisticated statistical methods developed for constructing genetic trees based on DNA sequences. These efforts have been regarded with suspicion by some linguists.
In 2003 Dr. Atkinson and Russell Gray, another biologist at the University of Auckland, reconstructed the tree of Indo-European languages with a DNA tree-drawing method called Bayesian phylogeny. The tree indicated that Indo-European was much older than historical linguists had estimated and hence favored the theory that the language family had diversified with the spread of agriculture some 10,000 years ago, not with a military invasion by steppe people some 6,000 years ago, the idea favored by most historical linguists.
“We’re uneasy about mathematical modeling that we don’t understand juxtaposed to philological modeling that we do understand,” Brian D. Joseph, a linguist at Ohio State University, said about the Indo-European tree. But he thinks that linguists may be more willing to accept Dr. Atkinson’s new article because it does not conflict with any established area of linguistic scholarship.
“I think we ought to take this seriously, although there are some who will dismiss it out of hand,” Dr. Joseph said.
Another linguist, Donald A. Ringe of the University of Pennsylvania, said, “It’s too early to tell if Atkinson’s idea is correct, but if so, it’s one of the most interesting articles in historical linguistics that I’ve seen in a decade.”
Dr. Atkinson’s finding fits with other evidence about the origins of language. The Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert belong to one of the earliest branches of the genetic tree based on human mitochondrial DNA. Their languages belong to a family known as Khoisan and include many click sounds, which seem to be a very ancient feature of language. And they live in southern Africa, which Dr. Atkinson’s calculations point to as the origin of language. But whether Khoisan is closest to some ancestral form of language “is not something my method can speak to,” Dr. Atkinson said.
His study was prompted by a recent finding that the number of phonemes in a language increases with the number of people who speak it. This gave him the idea that phoneme diversity would increase as a population grew, but would fall again when a small group split off and migrated away from the parent group.
Such a continual budding process, which is the way the first modern humans expanded around the world, is known to produce what biologists call a serial founder effect. Each time a smaller group moves away, there is a reduction in its genetic diversity. The reduction in phonemic diversity over increasing distances from Africa, as seen by Dr. Atkinson, parallels the reduction in genetic diversity already recorded by biologists.
For either kind of reduction in diversity to occur, the population budding process must be rapid, or diversity will build up again. This implies that the human expansion out of Africa was very rapid at each stage. The acquisition of modern language, or the technology it made possible, may have prompted the expansion, Dr. Atkinson said.
“What’s so remarkable about this work is that it shows language doesn’t change all that fast — it retains a signal of its ancestry over tens of thousands of years,” said Mark Pagel, a biologist at the University of Reading in England who advised Dr. Atkinson.
Dr. Pagel sees language as central to human expansion across the globe.
“Language was our secret weapon, and as soon we got language we became a really dangerous species,” he said.
In the wake of modern human expansion, archaic human species like the Neanderthals were wiped out and large species of game, fossil evidence shows, fell into extinction on every continent shortly after the arrival of modern humans.
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500 languages traced back to Stone Age dialect The further away from Africa a language is spoken, the fewer distinct sounds it has
English has around 46 sounds, while the San bushmen of South Africa use a staggering 200 Study finds speech evolved 'at least 100,000 years ago' Every language in the world - from English to Mandarin - evolved from a prehistoric 'mother tongue' first spoken in Africa tens of thousands of years ago, a new study reveals. After analysing more than 500 languages, Dr Quentin Atkinson found compelling evidence that they can be traced back to a long-forgotten dialect spoken by our Stone Age ancestors. The findings don't just pinpoint the origin of language to Africa - they also show that speech evolved at least 100,000 years ago, far earlier than previously thought.
Scientists have found that every language can be traced back to a long-forgotten dialect spoken by our Stone Age ancestors in Africa. The further away from Africa a language is spoken, the fewer distinct sounds - or phonemes - it has
British evolutionary scientists last night welcomed the study and said it shed light on one of the most important moments in human evolution.
There is now compelling evidence that the first modern humans evolved in Africa around 200,000 to 150,000 years ago.
Around 70,000 years ago, these early humans began to migrate from the continent, eventually spreading around the rest of the world.
Although most scientists agree with this 'Out of Africa' theory, they are less sure when our ancestors began to talk.
Some have argued that language evolved independently in different parts of the world, while others say it evolved just once, and that all languages are descended from a single ancestral mother tongue.
Dr Atkinson, of Auckland University, has now come up with fascinating evidence for a single African origin of language.
In a paper published today in Science, he counted the number of distinct sounds, or phonemes, used in 504 languages from around the world and charted them on a map.
The number of sounds varies hugely from language to language. English, for instance has around 46 sounds, some languages in South America have fewer than 15, while the San bushmen of South Africa use a staggering 200.
Dr Atkinson found that the number of distinct sounds in a language tends to increase the closer it is to sub-Saharan Africa.
He argues that these differences reflect the patterns of migration of our ancestors when they left Africa 70,000 years ago.
Languages change as they are handed down from generation to generation.
In a large population, languages are likely to be relatively stable - simply because there are more people to remember what previous generations did, he says.
But in a smaller population - such as a splinter group that sets off to find a new home elsewhere - there are more chances that languages will change quickly and that sounds will be lost from generation to generation.
Professor Mark Pagel, an evolutionary biologist at Reading University, said the same effect could be seen in DNA.
Origin: The findings show that speech evolved at least 100,000 years ago, far earlier than previously thought
Modern-day Africans have a much greater genetic diversity than white Europeans who are descended from a relatively small splinter group that left 70,000 years ago.
'The further you get away from Africa, the fewer sounds you get,' he said.
'People have suspected for a long time that language arose with the origin of our species in Africa and this is consistent with that view.'
Professor Robin Dunbar, an anthropologist at Oxford University, said the origin of language could now be pushed back to between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago.
'The study shows that ancestral language came from somewhere in Africa,' he said.
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We should keep in mind the original thesis by Dr. Lilias Homburger in her 1949 English translated work _The Negro-African Languages_, pg. vii, where she asserts that she believed that all African languages were related, and they they were some form of "Egyptian." Homburger was Diop's teacher in linguistics. Diop took this thesis and modified it to demonstrate the common origin in the Nile-Valley in general. I agree with this thesis with the more advanced spread, geographically, in the Sahara as a result of its desiccation.
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