The percentage depends on the European popualtion. ====== McEvoy et al -- Quote : However, these Y chromosomes are concentrated in southern Europe (Cruciani et al. 2004), whereas the smaller average divergence times between Europe and Africa relative to East Asia and Africa are still readily apparent across each individual northern European sample population (Supplemental Table 2). This suggests that the discrepancy has, at least partially, an even earlier and more pervasive origin, being established prior to the appearance, and consequent migration tagging ability, of the current range of mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups --
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Almost 20 years later based upon LD analysis Sforza has hypothesis still stands. Lazaridis puts it closer to 80% in some populations(to the south)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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====== McEvoy et al -- Quote : However, these Y chromosomes are concentrated in southern Europe (Cruciani et al. 2004), whereas the smaller average divergence times between Europe and Africa relative to East Asia and Africa are still readily apparent across each individual northern European sample population (Supplemental Table 2). This suggests that the discrepancy has, at least partially, an even earlier and more PERVASIVE origin, being established prior to the appearance, and consequent migration tagging ability, of the current range of mtDNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups --
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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This means "Basal Eurasian" in Laziridis et al is African.Of course other forums like Anthroscope are in denial.
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^^^ there is charting here a and b. It seems each method leads to a different conclusion
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Yes, we know that. That's what the actual C-S text says, you know, the text posted here days ago. Hell, the figure caption explains why,
methodology.
[Hence why materials and methods sections in scientific reports woefully lacking from the "digests" of marketplace statisticians and copywriters who make believe they are geneticists.]
Care to expand on what you're signifying?
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BASAL EURASIAN IS AFRICAN.
So what, modern Eurasians are not basal Eurasians
after tens of thousands of years of in situ mutation and selection they Eurasian are no longer African. They can be distinguished from Africans genteically
Or are Chinese people Africans?
According to OOA theory the ancestors of Chinese people were African.
Does this mean modern Chinese people are African? No
Posts: 43007 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by dtango: The above was written by me, not by the Lioness. I am a… white boy, so shoot at me if you have the knowledge the refute the findings of the Max Plank Institute.
Sure,
quote:Originally posted by dtango: Ladies and Gentlemen, Have you studied the 2010 to 2014 reports of the Max Planck Institute? http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v468/n7327/pdf/nature09710.pdf http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/full/nature12886.html According to their findings no human race evolved out of another human race. Those who left South Africa 70kya were members of the white race, They interbred with Neanderthals in the near East and then dispersed to the East and the West. Now, Eurasians seem to be hybrids between Homo sapiens sapiens (Hss) and so much Neanderthals as Denisovans leaving as pure Hss only the Africans.
Moreover, the Africans reached the stage of modern human some 200k years before the Eurasians did. One more fact about races is that whites are killers. They commenced with the Neanderthals and tried to eliminate any other race they came across, fortunately succeeding fully only with Neanderthals and Tasmanians. I am however of the opinion that they failed to exterminate all other races because a large percentage of the members of the white race hate and fight their racist brothers.
Your interpretation is a bit off, rather completely off.
What it says is that the predecessors are the Homo heidelbergensis
Homo heidelbergensis gave rise to the Neanderthals, this is seen as splitting.
And the Homo heidelbergensis gave rise to modern human population known as Homo Sapiens Sapiens. And later intermingled with remnants of Neanderthals.
The Homo heidelbergensis was in Africa and Europe from which Neanderthals split in eurasia and from which Homo Sapiens split in Africa, eventually mankind emerged from these Homo Sapiens.
Here see:
quote: Less than 200,000 years ago, anatomically modern humans (that is, humans with skeletons similar to those of present-day humans) appeared in Africa.
This branching pattern, along with the geographical distribution of the major clades A, B, and CT, has been interpreted as supporting an African origin for anatomically modern humans,10 with Khoisan from south Africa and Ethiopians from east Africa sharing the deepest lineages of the phylogeny.15 and 16
[...]
The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).
[...]
How does the present MSY tree compare with the backbone of the recently published “reference” MSY phylogeny?13 The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).
quote: We report the discovery of an African American Y chromosome that carries the ancestral state of all SNPs that defined the basal portion of the Y chromosome phylogenetic tree. We sequenced ∼240 kb of this chromosome to identify private, derived mutations on this lineage, which we named A00. We then estimated the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for the Y tree as 338 thousand years ago (kya) (95% confidence interval = 237–581 kya). Remarkably, this exceeds current estimates of the mtDNA TMRCA, as well as those of the age of the oldest anatomically modern human fossils. The extremely ancient age combined with the rarity of the A00 lineage, which we also find at very low frequency in central Africa, point to the importance of considering more complex models for the origin of Y chromosome diversity. These models include ancient population structure and the possibility of archaic introgression of Y chromosomes into anatomically modern humans. The A00 lineage was discovered in a large database of consumer samples of African Americans and has not been identified in traditional hunter-gatherer populations from sub-Saharan Africa. This underscores how the stochastic nature of the genealogical process can affect inference from a single locus and warrants caution during the interpretation of the geographic location of divergent branches of the Y chromosome phylogenetic tree for the elucidation of human origins.
An African American Paternal Lineage Adds an Extremely Ancient Root to the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 92, Issue 3, 454-459, 28 February 2013
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BASAL EURASIAN IS AFRICAN.
So what, modern Eurasians are not basal Eurasians
after tens of thousands of years of in situ mutation and selection they Eurasian are no longer African. They can be distinguished from Africans genteically
Or are Chinese people Africans?
According to OOA theory the ancestors of Chinese people were African.
Does this mean modern Chinese people are African? No
quote: Although the study's main focus was on Africa, Tishkoff and her colleagues studied DNA markers from around the planet, identifying 14 "ancestral clusters" for all of humanity. Nine of those clusters are in Africa. "You're seeing more diversity in one continent than across the globe," Tishkoff said.
quote: For many of the individuals for which we have obtained DNA, we also collected phenotype data for traits likely to play a role in adaptation, some of which demonstrate a complex pattern of inheritance and are likely influenced by multiple loci and environmental factors. In addition to case/control analyses of variation at candidate genes, we are using whole-genome association studies to identify novel genes that are associated with these traits. Together with collaborators, we are also developing methods for mapping complex traits (including disease) in highly structured African populations.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Europeans are 44% African here's the proof:
quote: losif Lazaridis, Nick Patterson, Alissa Mittnik, et al., Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans. BioArxiv 2013 (preprint). Freely accessible → LINK [doi:10.1101/001552] Abstract
Analysis of ancient DNA can reveal historical events that are difficult to discern through study of present-day individuals. To investigate European population history around the time of the agricultural transition, we sequenced complete genomes from a ~7,500 year old early farmer from the Linearbandkeramik (LBK) culture from Stuttgart in Germany and an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg. We also generated data from seven ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherers from Motala in Sweden. We compared these genomes and published ancient DNA to new data from 2,196 samples from 185 diverse populations to show that at least three ancestral groups contributed to present-day Europeans. The first are Ancient North Eurasians (ANE), who are more closely related to Upper Paleolithic Siberians than to any present-day population. The second are West European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), related to the Loschbour individual, who contributed to all Europeans but not to Near Easterners. The third are Early European Farmers (EEF), related to the Stuttgart individual, who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored WHG-related ancestry. We model the deep relationships of these populations and show that about ~44% of the ancestry of EEF derived from a basal Eurasian lineage that split prior to the separation of other non-Africans.
basal Eurasian lineage is pre OOA African
lioness Swenet Team
Population replacement?
quote: We then estimated the time to the most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) for the Y tree as 338 thousand years ago (kya) (95% confidence interval = 237–581 kya).
An African American Paternal Lineage Adds an Extremely Ancient Root to the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 92, Issue 3, 454-459, 28 February 2013
Remarkable, isn't it?
Loose pearl.
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Still don't get it? The Lazaridis report and DNATribes. Listen I can not dumb it down any further.
10's of thousand. Ha! Ha!. AMH has been only been in Europe about 40,000y.
To be clear to you and AMRTU. Basal Eurasian=African Saharans.
TIMING? = Farmers=Neolithic=circa 8000ya.
I can not dumb it down any further.
They met older AMH that left Africa 30,000ya.
So yes, modern Europeans are NOT Africans. They are an admixture of 3 groups of Africans that left Africa at differents times.
Asians and Europeans are a sub-set of Africans. Got it Get it?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: BASAL EURASIAN IS AFRICAN.
So what, modern Eurasians are not basal Eurasians
after tens of thousands of years of in situ mutation and selection they Eurasian are no longer African. They can be distinguished from Africans genteically
Or are Chinese people Africans?
According to OOA theory the ancestors of Chinese people were African.
Does this mean modern Chinese people are African? No
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Title of DNATribes Digest. DNA Tribes Digest for April 2, 2014: Ancient Eurasian and AFRICAN Ancestry in Europe .
They are talking modern Africans now. Get it got it.
This is fascinating shyte. Ha! Ha!
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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@ Lioness. That modified chart was used as an illustration. Understand the context. See bolded section and asterix. DNATribes is saying that migration was possibly through the Maghreb!!!! This is what I was illustrating in context.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: DNATribes New Update...April 2014!!
Quote: "Step 5 (Remove North African percentages): However, removing the North African component does not result in new components expressed. This suggests that European genetic relationships with North Africa are either ****local to the Maghreb ***or else better represented by other components (such as Arabian and/or Mesopotamian percentages).
Quote:Conclusion Sequential analyses of non-local genetic components in Europe using both autosomal STR and SNP data express ancestral components related to Middle Eastern and North Eurasian populations. Subsequent steps in each iterative analysis reveal deeper genetic relationships to populations of the Indian Subcontinent and Horn of Africa, possibly related to Early European Farmer (EEF) populations that first emerged near the Fertile Crescent as a synthesis integrating migratory hunter-gatherer and sedentary cultures from West Eurasia (possibly Anatolia) withi Basal Eurasian populations (possibly the Nile Valle).
-----
close thread. Damn, I should be paid for this shyte.
Oh - I don't think it is near the Nile Valley...think Luhya. Ha! Ha! Give them more time... [/QB]
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Lioness. That modified chart was used as an illustration. Understand the context. See bolded section and asterix. DNATribes is saying that migration was possibly through the Maghreb!!!! This is what I was illustrating in context.
lets look at tha actual chart rather than the one modified by you
why are you claiming DNATribes is saying that migration was possibly through the Maghreb ???
It doesn't
The map shows a migration of EEF farmers into Western Europe but the other branch of basal Eurasian, the red arrow going across North Africa is not shown migrating into Europe.
So no, as per this map DNA Tribes is not suggesting a possible migration from North Africa to Spain
Only you are suggesting that with your altered map with added blue arrows , here>
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Basal Eurasian=African Saharans.
wrong
"basal" means "ancestor of " in this context
not "="
These popualtions are set apart by thousands of years
According to this map Basal Eurasians are a Nile valley and Eastern Mediterranean population (this is what it says above the picture)
According to this map Basal Eurasians are ancestors of both Saharans and Levantines.
According to this map the farmers (EEF) who entered Europe came from a migration of Basal Eurasians North into the Levant and from ther migrated to to Eastern Europe and then Western Europe
xyyman, you need to follow the arrows. some migrate out of Africa others do not
Furthermore this map indicates that the people who are Basal to Basal Eurasian are Non-African (It's not my fault that's what this map you and Swenet keep hyping says)
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Originally posted by xyyman: DNATribes New Update...April 2014!!
Quote: "Step 5 (Remove North African percentages):
This suggests that European genetic relationships with North Africa are either ****local to the Maghreb ***or.....).
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @ Lioness. That modified chart was used as an illustration. Understand the context. See bolded section and asterix. DNATribes is saying that migration was possibly through the Maghreb!!!! This is what I was illustrating in context.
lets look at tha actual chart rather than the one modified by you
why are you claiming DNATribes is saying that migration was possibly through the Maghreb ???
It doesn't
The map shows a migration of EEF farmers into Western Europe but the other branch of basal Eurasian, the red arrow going across North Africa is not shown migrating into Europe.
So no, as per this map DNA Tribes is not suggesting a possible migration from North Africa to Spain
Only you are suggesting that with your altered map with added blue arrows , here>
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Basal Eurasian=African Saharans.
wrong
"basal" means "ancestor of " in this context
not "="
These popualtions are set apart by thousands of years
According to this map Basal Eurasians are a Nile valley and Eastern Mediterranean population (this is what it says above the picture)
According to this map Basal Eurasians are ancestors of both Saharans and Levantines.
According to this map the farmers (EEF) who entered Europe came from a migration of Basal Eurasians North into the Levant and from ther migrated to to Eastern Europe and then Western Europe
xyyman, you need to follow the arrows. some migrate out of Africa others do not
Furthermore this map indicates that the people who are Basal to Basal Eurasian are Non-African (It's not my fault that's what this map you and Swenet keep hyping says)
quote:
1 a : relating to, situated at, or forming the base b : arising from the base of a stem <basal leaves>
2 a : of or relating to the foundation, base, or essence : fundamental b : of, relating to, or being essential for maintaining the fundamental vital activities of an organism : minimal <a basal diet>
quote:The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa [at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago], trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe [mainly in the last 13.0 ky], and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.
--Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12 2007
quote:Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2011)
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms
No need to thank me. You're welcome.
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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thank you for what I see articles quotes on hap E which on average for Euroepans is under 5%
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: thank you for what I see articles quotes on hap E which on average for Euroepans is under 5%
Source? I guess it makes sense but I didn't see any article making an average for Europeans as a whole (I only see it for specific populations which I guess could be averaged to 5%).
Or do you mean you evaluated the 5% average yourself by adding up specific populations?
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quote: The DE haplogroup appeared approximately 50,000 years bp in North East Africa and subsequently split into haplogroup E that spread to Europe and Africa and haplogroup D that rapidly spread along the coastline of India and Asia to North Asia. The IJ haplogroup characterizes part of the second wave of emigration from Africa that occurred via the Middle East 45,000 years bp and defines two branches I and J that emigrated northwards and eastwards into Europe
quote:The estimates of their dates overlap (around fifth thousand years ago) and they both probably lived in northeast Africa. Africa? Yes, Africa. Although nearly all EUrasian mtDNA and Y chromosomes currently existing can be traced back to L3 and M168 respectively, M168 and L3 also had African descendants."
--Norman A. Johnson (2007) Darwinian Detectives: Revealing the Natural History of Genes and Genomes pg100
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: thank you for what I see articles quotes on hap E which on average for Euroepans is under 5%
Population replacement, or not?
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroups and their frequencies (%) in the examined populations. Nomenclature and haplogroup labelling according to the Y Chromosome Consortium (http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/) updated according to Karafet et al. 32 *Paragroups: Y chromosomes not defined by any phylogenetic downstream-reported and -examined mutation. aIntrapopulation haplogroup diversity. The terminal markers of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V13 (V32 and V27, respectively) were typed but did not show any variation.
Frequency (left) and variance (right) distributions of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, observed in this survey. Frequency data are reported in Figure 2, variance data are relative to the examined microsatellite reported in the Supplementary Table S2. We acknowledge that interpolated spatial frequency surfaces should be viewed with caution because of sample size.41 Data from this study. Frequency and variance values were assigned to sample-collection places (dots). Population samples (geographically close) with less than five observations were pooled and the corresponding variance assigned to a middle position of the pooled sample locations. +Data from the literature.13, 23, 27, 28, 36, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54
There is no other word for the inhabitants and emmigrating peoples from the Caucasus Mountains other than the word Caucasian because that is precisely what they are, CAUCASIANS.
Caucasians passed down through the Daryal Gorge to enter Mesopotamia and the Levant to influx resident populations and to form new ethnies of their own.
[list] [*]The eastern Mediterranean is a nexus of three continents. It and the Arabian Peninsula were peopled by other migrant invaders who didn't originally speak in Afrisian. Semitic speakers were among the first but weren't the only inhabitants of the region. Chadic and/or Nilo-Saharan speakers likely preceded them. Indo-Europeans, Caucasics, Altaics, etc., came after them probably via Daryal Gorge through the Caucasus.
Swenet are Caucasians 1/3 African ?
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Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans
Iosif Lazaridis,et al 2013
We sequenced genomes from a ~7,000 year old early farmer from Stuttgart in G e rmany, an ~8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from Luxembourg, and seven ~8,000 year old hunter- gatherers from southern Sweden. We analyzed these data together with other ancient genomes and 2,345 contemporary humans to show that the great majority of present-day Europeans derive from at least three highly differentiated populations: West European Hunter-Gatherers (W H G), who contributed ancestry to all Europeans but not to Near E aste rne rs; A ncient North E urasians (A N E), who we re most closely r elated to Upper Paleolithic Sibe rians and contributed to both Europeans and Near Easterners; and Early European Farme rs (E E F), who were mainly of Near Eastern origin but also harbored W H G-related ancestry. We model these populations’ deep relationships and show that E E F had ~44% ancestry from a “Basal Eurasian” lineage that split prior to the diversification of all othe r non-A frican lineages.
“Basal Eurasian” lineage that split prior to the separation of eastern non-Africans from the common ancestor of WHG and ANE. If this model is accurate, the ANE/WHG split must have occurred >24,000 years ago since this is the age6 of MA1 and this individual is on the ANE lineage. The WHG must then have split from eastern non-Africans >40,000 years ago, as this is the age of the Chinese Tianyuan sample which clusters with eastern non-Africans to the exclusion of Europeans28. The Basal Eurasian split would then have to be even older. A Basal Eurasian lineage in the Near East is plausible given the presence of anatomically modern humans in the Levant [29]
Stuttgart belongs to mtDNA haplogroup T2, typical of Neolithic Europeans9, while Loschbour and all Motala individuals belong to haplogroups U5 and U2, typical of pre-agricultural Europeans1,7 (SI4). Based on the ratio of reads aligning to chromosomes X and Y, Stuttgart is female, while Loschbour and five of seven Motala individuals are male10 (SI5). Loschbour and the four Motala males whose haplogroups we could determine all belong to Y-chromosome haplogroup I, suggesting that this was a predominant haplogroup in pre-agricultural northern Europeans analogous to mtDNA haplogroup U11
Three questions seem particularly important to address in follow-up work. Where did the EEF obtain their WHG ancestry? Southeastern Europe is a candidate as it lies along the path from Anatolia into central Europe39. When and where the ancestors of present-day Europeans first acquire their ANE ancestry? Based on discontinuity in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies, this may have occurred ~5,500-4,000 years ago40 in Central Europe. When and where did Basal Eurasians mix into the ancestors of the EEF? An important aim for future work should be to collect DNA from additional ancient samples to illuminate these transformations.
"The record of this maternally inherited genetic group, called Haplogroup H, shows that the first farmers in Central Europe resulted from a wholesale cultural and genetic input via migration, beginning in Turkey and the Near East where farming originated and arriving in Germany around 7,500 years ago," says joint lead author Dr Paul Brotherton, formerly at ACAD and now at the University of Huddersfield, UK. ACAD Director Professor Alan Cooper says: "What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don't know why. Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was."
"We have established that the genetic foundations for modern Europe were only established in the Mid-Neolithic, after this major genetic transition around 4,000 years ago," says Dr Haak. "This genetic diversity was then modified further by a series of incoming and expanding cultures from Iberia and Eastern Europe through the Late Neolithic." "The expansion of the Bell Beaker culture (named after their pots) appears to have been a key event, emerging in Iberia around 2800 BC and arriving in Germany several centuries later," says Dr Brotherton. "This is a very interesting group as they have been linked to the expansion of Celtic languages along the Atlantic coast and into central Europe."
The team has been working closely on the genetic prehistory of Europeans for the past 7-8 years.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll, you have a quote from me in wto separate posts, a claim that modern Europeans on average are under 5 % Hap E.
What is the source of that 5% statistic you keep talking about?
In all manner, since there's no substantial African MtDNA counterpart (L haplogroup) in Europe, including in the Balkans, it's safe to assume haplogroup E carriers were already part of a non-African population when they arrived in Europe. They weren't close autosomally for their full genome to African populations.
Since uniparental lines only give us one line of ancestry, it's only a small part of the full genome. That's why you need to study the genetic profiles autosomally or at least determine the female mtdNA counterparts, to know how close they are to the original population carrying an uniparental male haplogroup (originating in Africa in this case).
So again, when we analyse the mtDNA of E haplogroup carriers in Europe they carry Eurasian mtDNA (non-L haplogroups). Showing us the original E carriers in Europe were already mostly non-African autosomally for their full genome. On that point we can also note modern Balkan populations, as far as I know, don't cluster with African population autosomally (SNP, STR) beside possessing a relatively high level of E carriers in their population. Showing us again the original E carriers in Europe were already non-African for the most part of their genetic profile at the moment of their arrival in Europe . So is the case with modern European populations in general since other Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups in Europe have a clear Eurasian origins. They also don't cluster autosomally (STR, SNP) with African populations.
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E M78 is the most common variety of haplogroup E among Europeans and Near Easterners.
____________________________
Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12 Fulvio Cruciani*, Roberta La Fratta*, Beniamino Trombetta*
"Considering both these E-M78 sub-haplogroups (present study) and the E-M81 haplogroup (Cruciani et al. 2004), the contribution of northern African lineages to the entire male gene pool of Iberia (barring Pasiegos), continental Italy and Sicily can be estimated as 5.6%, 3.6%, and 6.6%, respectively."
These haplogroups are common in northern Africa, where they likely originated, and are observed almost exclusively in Mediterranean Europe, as opposed to central and eastern Europe (table 1, fig. 2). Also, among the Mediterranean populations, they are more common in Iberia and south-central Europe than in the Balkans, the natural entry-point for chromosomes coming from the Levant. Such findings are hardly compatible with a south-eastern entry of E-V12, E-V22 and E-V65 haplogroups into Europe."
posted
^^^ I don't know why you posted the second paragraph but most European E haplogroup carriers are from the E-V13 clade (not the V12/V32 ones you posted about) which definitely seem to have a Balkans entry point into Europe.
We can also note the E-V13, the most widespread E haplogroup in Europe, is absent in Eastern Africa. Hinting us that E-V13 expanded into Europe from a non-African population.
E-M81 is the "recent" Berber clade which entered into Europe from Iberia (in recent time). I assume the frequency of it is smaller than V13 one by looking at the results without calculation (it may be a close call, I'm not sure). Definitely not the same events. E-M81, the recent Berber clade, is mostly preponderant in Iberia, while V13 in the Balkans.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I apologize if I've come across as patronizing or chiding if that's how you feel, since that was never my intention. I noticed things are getting pretty heated up in this forum with AmunRa attacking us and now you and Swenet getting into it. Trust, me the last thing I want is any conflict between us. I'm just saying that the early data by Sforza utilized traditional blood groupings immunological assays i.e. HLA and STRs. SNP data was taken into account later on.
Look man I ownd that book for like 10 years. The 2nd half of it is chockfull of the markers you're talking about but fig 2.4.7 is in the DNA section and the man clearly wrote the model was based on DNA polymorphisms.
If you haven't actually held the book in your hands and used it extensively yourself why do you keep going on?
Do yourself a favor and read pp91-93 I provided. Please reply to this post by quoting the last sentence of paragraph c on p.92, thank you.
There's obviously some misunderstanding here. Again, I've never read the book but only the paper. I know that Sforza used SNP data but only after the fact that the other non-DNA evidence was used first. After which a comparison was made which supports the other data. I don't what else you are getting at.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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You are wrong Cavalli-Sfroza and Bowcock used SNP RFLPs.
You don't know what I'm getting at because you haven't done the required homework.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll, you have a quote from me in wto separate posts, a claim that modern Europeans on average are under 5 % Hap E.
So why after that quote do you have cahrst and article quotes which do not speak of Hap E percenatges ?
Why bother quoting me on a percentage and then put up info not pertaining to percentage?
l'ass, population replacement or not?
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: E M78 is the most common variety of haplogroup E among Europeans and Near Easterners.
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Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12 Fulvio Cruciani*, Roberta La Fratta*, Beniamino Trombetta*
"Considering both these E-M78 sub-haplogroups (present study) and the E-M81 haplogroup (Cruciani et al. 2004), the contribution of northern African lineages to the entire male gene pool of Iberia (barring Pasiegos), continental Italy and Sicily can be estimated as 5.6%, 3.6%, and 6.6%, respectively."
These haplogroups are common in northern Africa, where they likely originated, and are observed almost exclusively in Mediterranean Europe, as opposed to central and eastern Europe (table 1, fig. 2). Also, among the Mediterranean populations, they are more common in Iberia and south-central Europe than in the Balkans, the natural entry-point for chromosomes coming from the Levant. Such findings are hardly compatible with a south-eastern entry of E-V12, E-V22 and E-V65 haplogroups into Europe."
Hum....they carry snippets of subclades. Not basals like the populations who expanded from Africa, into West Asia and Europe.
quote: "The Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup, suggesting either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup. Both E-V13, which is believed to originate in western Asia with its low frequency in North Africa, and E-V65 of North African origin (Cruciani et al., 2007), were not found among Sudanese."
quote: Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya, Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately 9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28, suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years ago. It is likely that the origin of V13 occurred somewhere within the zone of these sample collections.
--Vincenza Battaglia (2008)
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe
quote: "Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2011)
quote: Principal Component Analysis for a) several African populations and b) Guinea-Bissau ethnic clusters, based on haplogroup frequencies. a) The 1st PC captures 42.6% of the variance and 16.9% are under the responsibility of the 2nd PC. For details on populational datasets see Additional file 2. The codes in italic refer to the following populations: Morocco Arabs: Ar [1,34], Mar [33]; Morocco Berbers: Bb [33], MBb [34]; Algeria: Alg [80], Aar-Algerian Arabs [35]; Tunisia-Tun1 [35], Tun2 [7]; West Sahara: Sah-Saharawis [33]; Egypt: Egy1 [35], Egy2 [7]; Sudan: Sud [2]; Ethiopia: Eth [2], Or-Oromo, Amh-Amhara [5,7]; Kenya: K&K-Kikiu & Kamba, Maa-Maasai [7]; Uganda: Gan-Ganda [7]; North Cameroon: Po-Podokwo, Mad-Mandara [7], Ou-Ouldeme, Daba [1,7,26], NCAdaw-Fali, Tali [1,26], Fca-Fulbe [1,26]; South Cameroon: SCBantu-Bassa, Ngoumba [7], Bak-Bakaka, [1,7], Bam-Bamileke [1,26], Ewo-Ewondo [1,26], Bko-Bakola Pygmies [7]; CAR: Bik-Biaka Pygmies [2,7]; DRC: DRCBantu-Nande, Herna [7]; Mb-Mbuti Pygmies [2,7]; Guinea-Bissau: EJA-Felupe-Djola, BJG-Bijagós, BLE- Balanta, PBO-Papel, FUL-Fulbe, MNK-Mandenka, NAJ-Nalú (Present study); Burkina Faso: Mo-Mossi [1,26], Ri-Rimaibe [1,26], FBF-Fulbe [1,26]; Gambia/Senegal: Wo-Wolof [7], Mak-Mandinka [7]; Mali: Mal [2], Do-Dogon [7]; Ghana: Ewe, Ga, Fan-Fante [7]; Senegal: Se [5]; Namibia: Her-Herero, Amb-Ambo [7], Ku-!Kung, Sekele [1,7,26], CKh-Tsumkwe San, Dama, Nama [7]; South Africa: ST-Sotho-Tswana, Zu-Zulu, Xh-Xhosa, Sh-Shona [7], Kho-Khoisan [2]. b) The PCA captures 87.0% of the variance with 74.0% and 13.0% attributed to the 1st and 2nd PC, respectively. The 1st PC reflects an axial proportion of E3a* vs. E1* where Papel and Felupe-Djola retain the higher proportions of the later. E3a* is again a main influence in the 2ndaxis against that of R1b and E3b1, placing Mandenka apart from Bijagós and Fulbe.
--Rosa et al. BMC Evolutionary Biology 2007 7:124 doi:10.1186/1471-2148-7-124
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Troll, you have a quote from me in wto separate posts, a claim that modern Europeans on average are under 5 % Hap E.
So why after that quote do you have cahrst and article quotes which do not speak of Hap E percenatges ?
Why bother quoting me on a percentage and then put up info not pertaining to percentage?
L'ass, I've put in that info to reinforce what ARTU stated to you before about E-V13. And that particular info was also posted by me prior to that, posted 23 May, 2014 13:30.
Then I also asked you...population replacement or not? You've never answered that question.
Posts: 22246 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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