quote:Specifically, both of these ancient individuals (Edit:Ramses III and the screaming mummy) inherited the alleles D21S11=35 and CSFIPO=7, which are found throughout Sub-Saharan Africa but are comparatively rare or absent in other regions of the world . These African related alleles are different from the African related alleles identified for the previously studied Amarna period mummies (D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).11 This provides independent evidence for African autosomal ancestry in two different pharaonic families of New Kingdom Egypt
The results of the autosomal analyses do indicate to me that the ancient Egyptians sampled were biologically indigenous Africans. However, they may not necessarily negate the existence of the Northeast African substructure as described by Swenet et al. Even if Northeast Africans have a fraternal relationship to the ancestors of Eurasians, Eurasians could have still picked up some genetic components that distinguish them from the former.
Take the putative Neanderthal-like ancestry in Eurasians for instance. If this admixture affected Eurasians who left Africa but never made it to the Northeast African groups who evolved into ancient Egypto-Nubians, maybe said Egypto-Nubians might appear more "equatorial/southern African" in DNA Tribes' analyses than they actually are due to the relative absence of a Eurasian Neanderthal component.
Just a thought...
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Take the putative Neanderthal-like ancestry in Eurasians for instance. If this admixture affected Eurasians who left Africa but never made it to the Northeast African groups who evolved into ancient Egypto-Nubians, maybe said Egypto-Nubians might appear more "equatorial/southern African" in DNA Tribes' analyses than they actually are due to the relative absence of a Eurasian Neanderthal component.
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals 2012
Federico Sánchez-Quinto equal contributor, Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Sergi Civit, Conxita Arenas, María C. Ávila-Arcos, Carlos D. Bustamante, David Comas Carles Lalueza-Fox
Abstract
One of the main findings derived from the analysis of the Neandertal genome was the evidence for admixture between Neandertals and non-African modern humans. An alternative scenario is that the ancestral population of non-Africans was closer to Neandertals than to Africans because of ancient population substructure. Thus, the study of North African populations is crucial for testing both hypotheses. We analyzed a total of 780,000 SNPs in 125 individuals representing seven different North African locations and searched for their ancestral/derived state in comparison to different human populations and Neandertals. We found that North African populations have a significant excess of derived alleles shared with Neandertals, when compared to sub-Saharan Africans. This excess is similar to that found in non-African humans, a fact that can be interpreted as a sign of Neandertal admixture. Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals.
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: I just want to point out that racists like Swenet, Troll, Djehuti, etc wants to attribute the Ancient Egyptians civilizations to back migrating Eurasian (the dynastic/hamitic race theory). This is what it's all about.
Exactly how did you come to above conclusion??! Neither I, nor Troll-Patrol, nor Swenet have said anything about "dynastic" or "Hamitic" race at all! And the only one talking about "back-migrations" is Lioness, yet for some bizarre reason you do not include lioness in your accusations!!
In fact, Troll-Patrol and I have been doing nothing else but refuting lyinass's claims of back-migrations to Africa, yet you accuse US of being racists who want to white-wash Africa!!
Either your are incredibly stupid OR you are incredibly psychotic. Perhaps both. I suggest you leave this forum and seek professional help. Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It's not even funny anymore. How wrong can you be and act like you're right. Notice that the image he posts shows the same natural (i.e. non-admixture mediated) closeness of some Africans to OOA populations he vehemently denies. It shows that Khoisan and Pygmies split off first from the human tree, and the Cushitic and Fulani speakers split off lastly when it comes to the African populations. Then, the OOA populations are next up; the Oceanians split off early and head East, then East Eurasians and West Eurasians split off lastly.
Yet his constipated brains look at this image, and come to the conclusion that it says that the only cause of relative closeness of Africans to Eurasian populations can be admixture. I've seen this sort of mental denseness before. It's typically ES trolls who have this dense-beyond-help condition.
Apparently Ahmanut does not understand that since Out-of-Africans are a subset of East Africans, East Africans tend to show closer relation to OOA than West Africans do. There is NO equal distance to OOA by all African populations. Even a grade school child can understand this.
In the meantime...
I find it rather interesting that the West African Fulani show closer distance to OOA than the East African Cushitic peoples. What is this about??
Could it have something to do with my argument that there were multiple waves of OOA so some populations not necessarily in East Africa could show affinities with OOA populations?
The above wiki graph which Ahmanut keeps citing is questionable. It assumes that CF and its derivative F* (M89) is 'Eurasian', yet F-M89 is found in significant frequencies in the Kordofan region of central Sudan but not in the Arab hub north.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: I just want to point out that racists like Swenet, Troll, Djehuti, etc wants to attribute the Ancient Egyptians civilizations to some back migrating Eurasian (the dynastic/hamitic race theory). This is what it's all about.
'nuff said!
What Swenet and other have stated, including myself. Is that the groups mentioned are at the axis of OOA. Thus creating Eurasian populations. In other words, the gave rise to Eurasian populations. This doesn't mean that ancient Egyptians are due to hypothetical back migrations into Africa. We have gathered abundance of evidence of this other the many years. Long before you appeared here. What is racist is, trying to segregate the rest of Africa from a so-called "sub Sahara Africa".
quote: For many of the individuals for which we have obtained DNA, we also collected phenotype data for traits likely to play a role in adaptation, some of which demonstrate a complex pattern of inheritance and are likely influenced by multiple loci and environmental factors. In addition to case/control analyses of variation at candidate genes, we are using whole-genome association studies to identify novel genes that are associated with these traits. Together with collaborators, we are also developing methods for mapping complex traits (including disease) in highly structured African populations.
quote: A number of novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations have also evolved in Africans in response to dramatic variation in environment, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent.
quote: Although the study's main focus was on Africa, Tishkoff and her colleagues studied DNA markers from around the planet, identifying 14 "ancestral clusters" for all of humanity. Nine of those clusters are in Africa. "You're seeing more diversity in one continent than across the globe," Tishkoff said.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It's not even funny anymore. How wrong can you be and act like you're right. Notice that the image he posts shows the same natural (i.e. non-admixture mediated) closeness of some Africans to OOA populations he vehemently denies. It shows that Khoisan and Pygmies split off first from the human tree, and the Cushitic and Fulani speakers split off lastly when it comes to the African populations. Then, the OOA populations are next up; the Oceanians split off early and head East, then East Eurasians and West Eurasians split off lastly.
Yet his constipated brains look at this image, and come to the conclusion that it says that the only cause of relative closeness of Africans to Eurasian populations can be admixture. I've seen this sort of mental denseness before. It's typically ES trolls who have this dense-beyond-help condition.
Apparently Ahmanut does not understand that since Out-of-Africans are a subset of East Africans, East Africans tend to show closer relation to OOA than West Africans do. There is NO equal distance to OOA by all African populations. Even a grade school child can understand this.
In the meantime...
I find it rather interesting that the West African Fulani show closer distance to OOA than the East African Cushitic peoples. What is this about??
Could it have something to do with my argument that there were multiple waves of OOA so some populations not necessarily in East Africa could show affinities with OOA populations?
The above wiki graph which Ahmanut keeps citing is questionable. It assumes that CF and its derivative F* (M89) is 'Eurasian', yet F-M89 is found in significant frequencies in the Kordofan region of central Sudan but not in the Arab hub north.
quote: This branching pattern, along with the geographical distribution of the major clades A, B, and CT, has been interpreted as supporting an African origin for anatomically modern humans,10 with Khoisan from south Africa and Ethiopians from east Africa sharing the deepest lineages of the phylogeny.15 and 16
[...]
--Fulvio Cruciani et al
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa (2011)
quote:The CF(xDE) haplogroup was the common ancestor of all people who migrated outside of Africa until recent times. The defining mutation occurred 31-55,000 years bp in North East Africa and is still most common in Africa today in Ethiopia and Sudan.
quote:Specifically, both of these ancient individuals (Edit:Ramses III and the screaming mummy) inherited the alleles D21S11=35 and CSFIPO=7, which are found throughout Sub-Saharan Africa but are comparatively rare or absent in other regions of the world . These African related alleles are different from the African related alleles identified for the previously studied Amarna period mummies (D18S51=19 and D21S11=34).11 This provides independent evidence for African autosomal ancestry in two different pharaonic families of New Kingdom Egypt
The results of the autosomal analyses do indicate to me that the ancient Egyptians sampled were biologically indigenous Africans. However, they may not necessarily negate the existence of the Northeast African substructure as described by Swenet et al. Even if Northeast Africans have a fraternal relationship to the ancestors of Eurasians, Eurasians could have still picked up some genetic components that distinguish them from the former.
Take the putative Neanderthal-like ancestry in Eurasians for instance. If this admixture affected Eurasians who left Africa but never made it to the Northeast African groups who evolved into ancient Egypto-Nubians, maybe said Egypto-Nubians might appear more "equatorial/southern African" in DNA Tribes' analyses than they actually are due to the relative absence of a Eurasian Neanderthal component.
Just a thought...
^^^You are welcome to post but it would be nice if you read the rest of the thread instead of just jumping in without reading the rest.
I already discussed all of this in a previous post in this thread . Basically there was indeed some substructure (obviously) among African population during the OOA migrations of non-Africans but it's between the CT haplogroup and the A and B haplogroups. So only 3 basal grandfathers left uniparental lineage descendants on earth, the A grandfather, the B grandfather and the CT grandfather. This is the substructure that was actually present as CT haplogroup carriers were closer to future non-Africans than A or B carriers. But then of course A and B haplogroup carriers continued to eventually interact, intermarry and admix with E haplogroup carriers in Africa (East Africa period, Green Sahara period, Bantu migration, various population movements and admixtures throughout history, etc). Between the time non-Africans left Africa some 65kya and their back migrations into Africa they had more than enough time to become their own people (with their own genetic make up, history, general physiological appearences, etc). Combined with the founder/bottleneck effect, that's why there's a relatively large genetic distance between African populations and non-African populations. Nowadays population living in African borderlines states have non-African gene flow because of back to Africa migrations (much later than the OOA migrations). The same way some Europeans are of African origin because of "recent" immigration of Africans in Europe.
So there was an A, B and CT substructure in Africa before the OOA migrations. But CT is an haplogroup common to most African populations including east and west Africans as most of them are E carriers. So OOA migrants were closer to future E haplogroup carriers than A and B haplogroup carriers. Not just Northeast Africans like Swenet and you are trying to claim but also West, Central and Southern Africans. The CT and its E descendant haplogroups are common all across Africa. Then between the time non-Africans left Africa some 65kya and their back migration into Africa they had more than enough time to become their own people (with their own genetic make up, history, general physiological appearances, cultures, etc).
Nowadays populations living in African borderlines states have significant non-African gene flows because of the back to Africa migrations (much later than the OOA migrations).
Nowadays population living in African borderlines states have significant non-African gene flows because of the back to Africa migrations (much later that the OOA migrations).
It is you who is claiming back migrations. Without giving archeological and anthropological support to this.
While the opposite happened, in most cases. As many of these mutations already arose within Africa. You see this as an obstacle for the rise of KMT, when it's not. Because Eurasian were cold adapted by that time, while ancient Egyptians themselves were tropical adapted, like former populations from the Sahara, Sahel to which they cluster with.
quote:The CF(xDE) haplogroup was the common ancestor of all people who migrated outside of Africa until recent times. The defining mutation occurred 31-55,000 years bp in North East Africa and is still most common in Africa today in Ethiopia and Sudan.
Take the putative Neanderthal-like ancestry in Eurasians for instance. If this admixture affected Eurasians who left Africa but never made it to the Northeast African groups who evolved into ancient Egypto-Nubians, maybe said Egypto-Nubians might appear more "equatorial/southern African" in DNA Tribes' analyses than they actually are due to the relative absence of a Eurasian Neanderthal component.
North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals 2012
Federico Sánchez-Quinto equal contributor, Laura R. Botigué equal contributor, Sergi Civit, Conxita Arenas, María C. Ávila-Arcos, Carlos D. Bustamante, David Comas Carles Lalueza-Fox
Abstract
One of the main findings derived from the analysis of the Neandertal genome was the evidence for admixture between Neandertals and non-African modern humans. An alternative scenario is that the ancestral population of non-Africans was closer to Neandertals than to Africans because of ancient population substructure. Thus, the study of North African populations is crucial for testing both hypotheses. We analyzed a total of 780,000 SNPs in 125 individuals representing seven different North African locations and searched for their ancestral/derived state in comparison to different human populations and Neandertals. We found that North African populations have a significant excess of derived alleles shared with Neandertals, when compared to sub-Saharan Africans. This excess is similar to that found in non-African humans, a fact that can be interpreted as a sign of Neandertal admixture. Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals. [/QB]
You know this is a lie, right?
And what is the purpose anyway, for "comparing the sub-Sahara" anyway? Nor can you or the author prove with any archeological and anthropological evidence any of this ancient Paleolithic, Holocene back to Africa migrations. What it shows is that these authors are parroting each other.
However, what the author failed to mention was the many recent invasions in Northern Africa. What this shows is that these authors are listening other's echoes.
Thus the author even mentions, that North Africans carry only "a fraction" of what is found in Europeans. We also now know that population replacement took place in Europe, recently.
And we know that the demographic changed in Northern Africa recently, by recent immigrants who shifted the population. These are facts.
quote: Figure 3. Neandertal genetic introgression in North African populations as a fraction of that found in Europeans.
fraction (ˈfrækʃən)
1. (Mathematics) maths a. a ratio of two expressions or numbers other than zero b. any rational number that is not an integer
2. any part or subdivision: a substantial fraction of the nation.
3. a small piece; fragment
4. (Chemistry) chem a component of a mixture separated by a fractional process, such as fractional distillation
In western Eurasia, the process led to the replacement of an archaic population (Neandertals) with Middle Paleolithic technologies by a population of modern humans (Homo sapiens) with Upper Paleolithic ones [3]–[5].
[...]
Into the 1980’s many paleoanthropologists argued that the Neandertals had evolved into modern humans (or modern Europeans) and that the Upper Paleolithic derived from the Middle Paleolithic Neandertal culture. The opposite view assumed a single origin of modern humans and replacement of archaic populations, including Neandertals, by modern humans immigrating from an unknown source area [6]. This view became widely accepted with advances in genetic studies and dating of fossils and sites in Africa, Europe and the Near East. In 1987 the work of Cann and colleagues [7] provided compelling mitochondrial evidence for a recent African origin of all modern humans. Later, the genetic evidence was supported by fossils which showed that Africans were far more modern looking than their Neandertal contemporaries, with dates for the Omo Kibish 1 and Herto skulls in Ethiopia suggesting that the early modern human morphology emerged in East Africa possibly as early as 195,000 year ago [8]–[10]. There is now general agreement that modern humans originated in Africa, and subsequently expanded their range into the Near East and later into Europe. This is the core of the so-called Out-of-Africa hypothesis [11].
In tandem with these developments, archaeologists began looking for modern behavioral markers in African sites dated between 200,000 and 60,000 years ago. Many (see below) would now suggest that there is indeed evidence for significant behavioral and cognitive differences between Neandertals and their African contemporaries, and that when early moderns encountered Neandertals in Western Eurasia, these differences would have entailed the demise of the Neandertals.
--Paola Villa, Wil Roebroeks
Neandertal Demise: An Archaeological Analysis of the Modern Human Superiority Complex
quote: I just want to point out that racists like Swenet, Troll, Djehuti, etc wants to attribute the Ancient Egyptians civilizations to some back migrating Eurasian (the dynastic/hamitic race theory). This is what it's all about.
'nuff said!
I don't see how this for example is in support of Eurasian back migrations?
quote:"Analysis of Predinastic skeletal material showed tropical African elements in the population of the earliest populations of the earliest Badarian culture" [...]
--Frank Yurco
quote:Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations.
--Sonia R. Zakrzewski, American Journal of Physical Anthropology Volume 121, Issue 3, pages 219–229, July 2003
quote: The results indicate overall population continuity over the Predynastic and early Dynastic, and high levels of genetic heterogeneity, thereby suggesting that state formation occurred as a mainly indigenous process. Nevertheless, significant differences were found in morphology between both geographically-pooled and cemetery-specific temporal groups, indicating that some migration occurred along the Egyptian Nile Valley over the periods&time; studied.
--Am J Phys Anthropol, 2007.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
A new hype is coming out, for some odd reason the Pharaoh is being played by the cold adapted in body portion "Australian actor Joel Edgerton". The role player of Moses is laughable too.
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
This Holliday chart shows the Mechta-Afalou marked on the chart "Afalou" from Algeria were cold adapted
They were a late Paleolithic and Mesolithic Iberomaurusian population However I'm not saying that has anything to do with Nile Valley cultures.
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Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age 2010
Chunxiang Li,1,2 Hongjie Li,2 Yinqiu Cui,1,2 Chengzhi Xie,2 Dawei Cai,1 Wenying Li,3 Victor H Mair,4 Zhi Xu,5 Quanchao Zhang,1 Idelisi Abuduresule,3 Li Jin,4 Hong Zhu,1 and Hui Zhou1,2
Abstract Background
The Tarim Basin, located on the ancient Silk Road, played a very important role in the history of human migration and cultural communications between the West and the East. However, both the exact period at which the relevant events occurred and the origins of the people in the area remain very obscure. In this paper, we present data from the analyses of both Y chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) derived from human remains excavated from the Xiaohe cemetery, the oldest archeological site with human remains discovered in the Tarim Basin thus far.
Results
Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that the Xiaohe people carried both the East Eurasian haplogroup (C) and the West Eurasian haplogroups (H and K), whereas Y chromosomal DNA analysis revealed only the West Eurasian haplogroup R1a1a in the male individuals.
Conclusion
Our results demonstrated that the Xiaohe people were an admixture from populations originating from both the West and the East, implying that the Tarim Basin had been occupied by an admixed population since the early Bronze Age. To our knowledge, this is the earliest genetic evidence of an admixed population settled in the Tarim Basin.
_______________________________________________
similarly:
Kefi's Taforalt and Afalou samples from North Africa also had high H frequencies. Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup in Europe.
Taforalt skull
The Libyan Tuareg have the highest H frequencies in the world but low diversity Second to the Libyan Tuareg are Basques
quote: This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.
It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades. Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.
The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward.
As for the Libyan Tuareg, the extremely low values of the diversity indices confirm that the outstanding high frequency of H1 in this population is the result of even more recent founder events. --Ottoni 2010
H1 as a whole has a higher diversity in the Near East than in Iberia (Ennafaa et al., 2009).
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
A new hype is coming out, for some odd reason the Pharaoh is being played by the cold adapted in body portion "Australian actor Joel Edgerton". The role player of Moses is laughable too.
quote: In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.
--Holliday TW, Hilton CE. Body proportions of circumpolar peoples as evidenced from skeletal data: Ipiutak and Tigara (Point Hope) versus Kodiak Island Inuit.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
This Holliday chart shows the Mechta-Afalou marked on the chart "Afalou" from Algeria were cold adapted
They were a late Paleolithic and Mesolithic Iberomaurusian population However I'm not saying that has anything to do with Nile Valley cultures.
If you like to copy-paste behind my back, then do it right.
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
quote: Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008).[ Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
quote: we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008).[ Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
The prehistory of Western Sahara in a regional context: the archaeology of the "free zone"
Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, Saharan Studies Programme and School of Environmental Sciences, University of East Anglia, Norwich, UK Coauthors: Di Lernia, Savino ((Department of Scienze Storiche, Archeologiche, e Antropologiche dell’Antichità, Faculty of Human Sciences, University of Rome “La Sapienza”, Via Palestro 63, 00185 – Rome, Italy) and Drake, Nick (Department of Geography, King’s College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS).
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Evidence that a West-East admixed population lived in the Tarim Basin as early as the early Bronze Age 2010
Chunxiang Li,1,2 Hongjie Li,2 Yinqiu Cui,1,2 Chengzhi Xie,2 Dawei Cai,1 Wenying Li,3 Victor H Mair,4 Zhi Xu,5 Quanchao Zhang,1 Idelisi Abuduresule,3 Li Jin,4 Hong Zhu,1 and Hui Zhou1,2
Abstract Background
The Tarim Basin, located on the ancient Silk Road, played a very important role in the history of human migration and cultural communications between the West and the East. However, both the exact period at which the relevant events occurred and the origins of the people in the area remain very obscure. In this paper, we present data from the analyses of both Y chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) derived from human remains excavated from the Xiaohe cemetery, the oldest archeological site with human remains discovered in the Tarim Basin thus far.
Results
Mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that the Xiaohe people carried both the East Eurasian haplogroup (C) and the West Eurasian haplogroups (H and K), whereas Y chromosomal DNA analysis revealed only the West Eurasian haplogroup R1a1a in the male individuals.
Conclusion
Our results demonstrated that the Xiaohe people were an admixture from populations originating from both the West and the East, implying that the Tarim Basin had been occupied by an admixed population since the early Bronze Age. To our knowledge, this is the earliest genetic evidence of an admixed population settled in the Tarim Basin.
_______________________________________________
similarly:
Kefi's Taforalt and Afalou samples from North Africa also had high H frequencies. Haplogroup H is the most common mtDNA haplogroup in Europe.
Taforalt skull
The Libyan Tuareg have the highest H frequencies in the world but low diversity Second to the Libyan Tuareg are Basques
quote: This process of autochthonous differentiation continues in the Libyan Tuareg who, probably due to isolation and recent founder events, are characterized by village-specific maternal mtDNA lineages.
A high degree of homogeneity in the Libyan H1 lineages was observed, suggesting that the high frequency of H1 in the Tuareg may be the result of genetic drift and recent founder events.
It is worth noting the extensive village-specificity of the sub-clades. Indeed H1v1b and H1w harbored frequencies of 22% and 63% in Al Awaynat, but were not found at all in Tahala, and 80% of the mtDNAs from the village of Tahala were members of H1v1a in contrast to the only four out of 54 (7%) from the village of Al Awaynat. Similar to H1v1a, haplogroup H1x was also shared between the two groups with two instances in Tahala and four in Al Awaynat.
The sharp homogeneity of H1 in the Libyan Tuareg, who show extremely low values of haplotype diversity (0.165), is straightforward.
As for the Libyan Tuareg, the extremely low values of the diversity indices confirm that the outstanding high frequency of H1 in this population is the result of even more recent founder events. --Ottoni 2010
H1 as a whole has a higher diversity in the Near East than in Iberia (Ennafaa et al., 2009).
Likely the opposite happened. Since older stems are found locally as well. (16223T)
quote: Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b). [...] Indeed, taking into account the Tunisian sequences belonging to haplogroup L2a from Sejnane, Zriba, Kesra, Matmata, Sned, and Chenini-Douiret, we obtain a divergence age of about 28,000 ± 8,900 years, which is the same age calculated for this haplogroup including all the described sequences. However, we noticed two pairs of related haplotypes in the Kesra population, where we detected a local evolution of the L2a cluster, suggesting that this haplogroup could have been introduced earlier in Kesra.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Excuse me for my laziness, but hard work has been put in already here, by IronLion in tracing the locus:
quote: Evolutionary history of mtDNA haplogroup structure in African populations inferred from mtDNA d-loop and RFLP analysis.
(A) Relationships among different mtDNA haplogroup lineages inferred from mtDNA d-loop sequences and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies (Kivisild, Metspalu, et al. 2006). Dashed lines indicate previously unresolved relationships.
(B) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, L5, L2, L3, M, and N in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies.
(C) Relative frequencies of haplogroups L0, L1, and L5 subhaplogroups (excluding L2 and L3) in different regions of Africa from mtDNA d-loop and mtDNA coding region SNPs from previous studies. Haplogroup frequencies from previously published studies include East Africans (Ethiopia [Rosa et al. 2004], Kenya and Sudan [Watson et al. 1997; Rosa et al. 2004]), Mozambique (Pereira et al. 2001; Salas et al. 2002), Hadza (Vigilant et al. 1991), and Sukuma (Knight et al. 2003); South Africans (Botswana !Kung [Vigilant et al. 1991]); Central Africans (Mbenzele Pygmies [Destro-Bisol et al. 2004], Biaka Pygmies [Vigilant et al. 1991], and Mbuti Pygmies [Vigilant et al. 1991]); West Africans (Niger, Nigeria [Vigilant et al. 1991; Watson et al. 1997]; and Guinea [Rosa et al. 2004]). L1*, L2*, and L3* from previous studies indicate samples that were not further subdivided into subhaplogroups.
Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages
quote:"The new topology here reported has important implications as to the origins of the haplogroup E1b1. Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1 trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa, as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa.
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups."
Before (A) and after (B):
--Beniamino et al.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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RootsWeb: GENEALOGY-DNA-L [DNA] Spanish mtDNA and 16223
I originally wrote this in response to Grant's earlier message:
Grant wrote: >I know that women pass on mtDNA >as a sealed unit, and the U-2 with >16129-A has a lot of other baggage, >but Spanish mtDNA might explain >the source of that results. It came >from my g-grandmother, Dorah Francisco >MIDDLETON. Francisco was her >middle name, proudly recorded >in several places, and passed on >to one of her sons.
But -- I've just now read the followup from Bennett that you forwarded, explaining that what you have is 16129C. I'm so happy for you, and delighted that he was so good about correcting the error!
what other mutations it's found with, as I'll explain.
As implied by what Ana (below) said, 16129A is a widespread mutation, found in many haplogroups all over the world, including L1a, L1c and M1. Since it's in L1, it can be considered a feature of earliest mtDNA strain coming out of Africa, and the loss of it would constitute a marker of distance from African origins.
That is certainly the case with the mutation 16223T>C. Macaulay says, "Eurasian mtDNAs are split, by 16223 C/T, into two substantial classes (e.g., 16223T is in 7% of Europeans .... and 65% of Mongolians...), whereas Africans predominantly have 16223T [91%...] The 16223T state also characterizes the Neanderthal sequence ... Whether the thymine-cytosine transition, inferred to have occurred around the time of "out-of-Africa" event, happened just once has never been clear... [However], there is another T>C transition] at np 12705 that also splits off the 16223C clusters (J, T, U, H, and V). Thus, we confidently can identify a single common 16223 event, at least for these clusters. ...This is fully consistent with modern Eurasian mtDNA being derived from the 16223[T] sequence (in HVS1) which, during an Upper Paleolithic expansion, gave rise to, among others, clusters A, I, M, W, X, and, after the 16223T-C/12705T-C events, all the Reference-Sequence-derived clusters (e.g., B, F, T, J, U, H, and V) in the concomitant rapid branching of the genealogy."
He refers more than once to the 16223T>C transition as causing a "deep split in the phylogeny."
What does this mean? It means that any time you see an mtDNA haplotype that includes 16223 in its list of mutations, you can assume that it does not belong to U, K (they left that out of their list since it's really a clade of U), T, J, H, V, etc., but instead belongs to one of the less common European groups, I, W, or X, or else one of the many non-European haplogroups who retain this ancestral marker.
Since samples 18, 34, 39, and 48 in the Spanish database, who have 16129A, also have 16223T, the ancient African state of that marker, you can be sure they are not in haplogroup U, for example.
Since your haplotype does not have 16223T (but instead 16223C), you can be pretty sure that you are in one of the haplogroups B, F, T, J, U, K, H, or V. Since you do have the key mutation 16051, and the other typical U2 mutations you can be pretty sure that you're in that haplogroup.
For the samples 6, 47, 54, and 90, they have the mutation 16129A, but not 16223T. Thus, we can presume that like you, they are in one of those haplogroups that has the modern 16223C, but one would have to examine their other mutations more carefully to determine which one.
Since sample 99 does have 16051, there's a chance that it could be in U2. But it's hard to say for sure, given just this data.
And Ana wrote: >Although we are L1c, we also have >16129 A as one of our 13 HVR1 >mutations and we do have documented >direct ancestors from Spain. Do you >have any idea where your great- >grandmother was born or what area >she was from? We could check to >see if anyone with the surname Francisco >is listed in Spain's Archivos de las Indias . . .
Searching on the surname Francisco in Spanish records is a worthwhile idea in and of itself, if you want to try that, regardless of the mtDNA involved. I did a tiny bit of research on the Francisco surname. They often intermarried with the Dutch in colonial America, seem to have been French, Belgian, or from the Spanish Netherlands, are reputed to be Huguenots, and many believe them to have Spanish origins, though this isn't clear. I'll send you more off-list.
The fact that Ana has 16129A does not link her family particularly to Spain, though.
The haplogroup L1c would be indicative of African ancestry, probably in historical times, while, as I mentioned, your U2 mtDNA is Eurasian, and on the other side of the 16223 split from L1c (and L1a, M, etc.)
Apparently the so called C-split 16223C, is found in Africa as well, clustering with old clades. This split they tend to cluster with out of Africa migrations. And since it is out of Africa, and then became predominant, they say it's Eurasian. However, the root is already found within African populations.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Here again we can see East and West Africans clustering very close with one another along with other African populations (biologically, physiologically).
At the top, we can see African populations, at the bottom non-African populations.
It's nothing special since it has been demonstrated many times that almost all black African people have their origin in Northeastern Africa at a period of time postdating the OOA migrations. From where they later immigrated in the Green Sahara and eventually in the rest of Africa. For example, most Africans are from the E haplogroups or have their language family originating there in Northeastern Africa.
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Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Here again we can see East and West Africans clustering very close with one another along with other African populations (biologically, physiologically).
At the top, we can see African populations, at the bottom non-African populations.
It's nothing special since it has been demonstrated many times that almost all black African people have their origin in Northeastern Africa at a period of time postdating the OOA migrations. From where they later immigrated in the Green Sahara and eventually in the rest of Africa. For example, most Africans are from the E haplogroups or have their language family originating there in Northeastern Africa.
This chart does not prove that modern Africans priginated in East Africa, it probably reflects the role of diet in determining selected craniometric feature of African populations overtime. for example Kerma is located in Nubia, but the populations according to this chart are distantly related.
posted
Generally, physical anthropologists can tell the difference between the skeletal remains of an African,and European. This is due to “extremes” in African craniometrics. Carlson and Gerven observed that the variance in craniofacial features in African populations may be due to diet( See: Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.) .
. The research indicates that craniofacial features, in relation to the skull can be shaped, in evolutionary terms by heritability and high biomechanical load. This is reflected in the morphological heterogeneity within the same population studied by Carlson and Gerven when they studied Nubian craniometrics.
These researchers explained that the differences in Nubian skeletal remains was not the result of populaton changes resulting from invasion. They argued that the skeletal remains represented the same population.
So instead of the changes in crania reflecting biological diffusion, the changes in facial features result from changes in diet that lead to less masticatory stress associated with changes in subsistence patterns . Research shows that changes in diet lead to variation in the size and position of the muscles of mastication which inturn lead to reduction in the robustness of the craniofacial complex. This would explain why the use of multivariate techniques show variability between modern and ancient crania and skulls of African people and the broad or fine features associated with diverse African populations. .
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
The above article is about the the African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian berbers It is not about the Eurasian haplogroups in Tunisian berbers which is a serparate topic and at are higher mtDNA frequencies then local haplogroups. -when you read the article indtead of just the abstract
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin, though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998).
--Lawrence Barham
The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology)
this is from a book, not primary research. Barham' reference is Joel Irish 2000
"Results revealed: (1) a relationship between the Iberomaurusians, particularly those from Taforalt, and later Maghreb and other North African samples, and (2) a divergence among contemporaneous Iberomaurusians and Nubian samples." --Joel Irish 2000
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer
similarities in dental traits has no bearing on cranio-metric revelations that said coastal northwestern specimens do not form some homogeneous cranial type, which a number of researchers had been compelled to acknowledge, despite attempts to force them into a preconceived taxonomic type(s) spanning several of some or the other of the groups that Irish mentions above.
For instance, as pointed out here before, Briggs came up with four "types" from his analysis of EpiPaleolithic and early Holocene Maghrebi specimens [including the so-called "Ibero-Maurusians" and so-called "Capsian" groups], three of which were described as "Mediterranean" sub-types, while the remainder was reckoned to be a mixture of these "Mediterranean" sub-types; these "types" were named respectively as follows: "Type A", "Type B", "Type C", and "Type D".
Chamla on the other hand, came up with two primary "types" and a derivative type namely, the "Mectha-Afalou", the "Mediterranean" types (the "Proto Mediterranean"), and the "Mechtoids" respectively. The "Mechta-Afalou" were associated with the "Ibero-Maurusian" industry, while the latter two were associated with the "Capsian" industry, with the Mechtoids being representative of the Upper Capsian industry [which is interesting, considering that Chamla saw them as the "gracile" version of the "Mechta-Afalou" type, whom as noted, had been associated with "Ibero-Maurusian" industry]. The "Mechta-Afalou" were considered to be generally more robust than the latter Capsian groups.
It is not inconceivable that Mesolithic Maghrebi groups [who do not appear to be ancestors of recent Maghreb Tamazight or "Berber" speaking groups based on cranial findings and genetic material] may have interacted and exchanged genes with geographically proximate groups that "back-migrated" into the African continent
quote:Univariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from North or Sub-Saharan African samples. In contrast, multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ and UPGMA cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba hominins is closest to that of recent Sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000), who, using non-metric dental and osseous oral traits, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent Sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their contemporaries in other parts of North Africa. This study was funded in part by NSF (grant number SBR-9321339).
Body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample.
TRENTON W. HOLLIDAY1.
In other words the Irish study cited in Barham's book leads to a conclsuion opposite to what you think it leads to
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008).[ Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Iberomaurusians lived before the arid glacial maximum
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote: The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
TAFORALT MAN IN SAHARA : SAHARAN EXTENSION OF MAGHREBIAN
Hassi-el-Abiod remains dated 7000 BP
Taforalt specimins 12,000 BP (culture goes back further)
The 89 cold adpated skeletons of Hassi-el-Abiod Mauritania are thought by the authors to be an extension of Taforalt, meaning coming from, there is 5000 years separating them
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Reevaluating the Age of the Iberomaurusian in Morocco
quote: Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008).[ Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
--Fiona Marshall
Iberomaurusians lived for 10,000 years before the arid glacial maximum
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Domestication Processes and Morphological Change Through the Lens of the Donkey and African Pastoralism Fiona Marshall and Lior Weissbrod
quote:Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when [b]we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
--Nick Brooks et al.
5th and 6th millenium is 5000 + years after Iberomaurusians
Iberomaurusian culture is approximately 10 kya and lates approx 10 k as well
quote: Population replacement. Population replacement rather than gradual phenotypic evolution best explains the distinctive craniofacial morphology and funerary practices of the human occupants during phases 2 and 3 in the early and mid-Holocene, respectively, particularly considering the relatively short intervening occupational hiatus.
Early Holocene sedentism. The early Holocene occupants at Gobero (7700–6300 B.C.E.)
Lakeside Cemeteries in the Sahara: 5000 Years of Holocene Population and Environmental Change Paul C. Sereno 2008
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
The above is about the same topic as I have described. What you call Eurasian, already was present in Africans before these small pockets of people moved out of Africa.
To the Editor: We are also concerned about errors in GenBank sequences, and that is why we took precautions to evaluate the effects of potential sequence errors. But many of the potential errors reported by Yao et al. are highly subjective. They defined “phantom mutations” as (with exceptions) the exclusive presence of rare transversions in a specific data set. Although it is reasonable to be skeptical of such variations, surely such rare variations do actually occur without being errors. To deal with potential sequence errors, we took the step of doing the analysis twice; once for all reported variations and once for only variations present in more than 0.1% of the sequences. We made the latter choice to filter out sequencing errors, assuming that specific errors would not be repeated in many different sequences. This filtering process did remove 94% of their listed “phantom mutations.” As Yao et al. acknowledge, the removal of these rare variations (some of which may be sequencing errors) had little effect on most of our results.
Yao et al. define “missing variants” as those variants expected to be seen in a particular haplogroup but not reported in a sequence assigned to it. The problem with this definition is that it presupposes that we already have a complete picture of mtDNA variation and that all deviations from it are errors. There are many examples of such “missing variants” being true variations. It was once thought that all L- sub-Saharan haplogroups had the substitution at position 16223, but later some lineages were characterized without it (L0d1a, L1c1a1, L2d, L3x2a). Also, the M1- defining substitution at position 16249 is absent in the branch M1a1a.
After the careful data mining of Yao et al., potential errors were found in < 200 of the 5140 sequences. So, ~96% of the sequences deposited in GenBank by the end of August 2008 did pass their extreme quality filter. Yao et al. list many cases in which errors in the original sequences have been acknowledged and corrected by authors but the GenBank sequence has not been updated. GenBank allows the sequence depositor to update that sequence, but it depends on each depositor to carry out this procedure. Identifying these possible sequence errors is complex and is arguably highly subjective. To expect every author of a sequence data-mining project to carry out such a very subjective quality-control step is not reasonable, in our opinion.
Though we may disagree on specifics raised by Yao et al., we do share with them a concern about mtDNA sequence quality. Spirited discussions such as this one have been going on for the past decade. It is time to provide the mtDNA research community with analysis tools that allow them to efficiently check their sequences for potential problems, such as sequencing errors or unusual variations. We tried to go forward in this direction with our paper by providing the mtDNA Gene-Syn software. Fortunately, others are also advancing along the same path.
Response to Yao et al.
Main Text
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Population replacement. Population replacement rather than gradual phenotypic evolution best explains the distinctive craniofacial morphology and funerary practices of the human occupants during phases 2 and 3
This part of the paper covers Gobero, which is in Niger, if I'm not mistaking. And it speaks of recent migrations in to that region, during phases 2 and 3.
What are phase 2 and 3?
Figure 3. Radiocarbon (14C AMS) dates for human skeletons, ceramics, charcoals, middens, fauna, artifacts and sediment.
quote: Timelines and occupation phases 1–4 are shown at the bottom. Associated chronometric data are compiled in Table 2 using current atmospheric standards [55]. All of the burials that have been dated at Gobero fall within phases 2 and 3, which are shown as green to indicate favorable humid climate conditions; more arid intervals are shown as tan including occupation phases 1 and 4. Multiple dates on individual specimens or features are boxed. A dotted line separates early and mid-Holocene human burials. Abbreviations: B.C.E., before current era (registered to calendar year zero); B.P., before present (1950); G1B8, burial 8 on G1; G1B11, burial 11 on G1; G3B8, burial 8 on G3; K, Kiffian; LT, Late Tenerean doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0002995.g003
quote:
1)Early Holocene sedentism. The early Holocene occupants at Gobero (7700–6300 B.C.E.) were largely sedentary hunter-fisher-gatherers with lakeside funerary sites that include the earliest recorded cemetery in the Sahara dating to ~7500 B.C.E.
2)Trans-Saharan craniometry. Principal components analysis of craniometric variables closely allies the early Holocene occupants at Gobero, who were buried with Kiffian material culture, with Late Pleistocene to mid-Holocene humans from the Maghreb and southern Sahara referred to as Iberomaurusians, Capsians and “Mechtoids.” Outliers to this cluster of populations include an older Aterian sample and the mid-Holocene occupants at Gobero associated with Tenerean material culture.
3)Arid interruption. Early and mid-Holocene occupation phases 2 and 3 at Gobero are separated in time by a barren interval (6200–5200 B.C.E), which is associated with a period of severe aridification recorded across the Sahara.
4)Dietary diversification. Diversification of dietary resources, perhaps in response to increasing or episodic aridification, characterizes mid-Holocene subsistence strategies at Gobero (5200–2500 B.C.E.), as reflected in dated middens containing clams, fish, wild bovids and domesticated cattle.
5)Population replacement. Population replacement rather than gradual phenotypic evolution best explains the distinctive craniofacial morphology and funerary practices of the human occupants during phases 2 and 3 in the early and mid-Holocene, respectively, particularly considering the relatively short intervening occupational hiatus.
6)Regional differentiation. The timing of population change observed at Gobero may only characterize a restricted area. Other areas in the southern Sahara, even those with comparable environmental conditions such as Hassi-el-Abiod in Mali, appear to show a later transition between human populations. The data from Gobero, when combined with existing sites in North Africa, indicate we are just beginning to understand the complex history of biosocial evolution in the face of severe climate fluctuation in the Sahara, a vast region that was occupied for much of the Holocene by an anatomically diverse series of human populations.
On the short intervening occupational hiatus, I recall Zarahan's evaluation.
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Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
The above is about the same topic as I have described. What you call Eurasian, already was present in Africans before these small pockets of people moved out of Africa.
I have never called haplogroup L Eurasian
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
again, the analysis is of those mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African. Only their Y DNA is considered primarily African (M81)
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Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
The above is about the same topic as I have described. What you call Eurasian, already was present in Africans before these small pockets of people moved out of Africa.
I have never called haplogroup L Eurasian
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
again, the analysis is of those mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African. Only their Y DNA is considered primarily African (M81)
No you did not, but as I repeat. Former alleles as well as the C-split were already present in African populations before they migrated out of Africa. You yourself posted Taf III.
Quote: Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. Unquote.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Quote: Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. Unquote.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
again, the analysis is of those mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: this is from a book, not primary research. Barham' reference is Joel Irish 2000
How do you know there was no primary research done?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Iberomaurusians lived before the arid glacial maximum
Which correlates with the following:
quote:
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
[...]
[b]Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. [b]
Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
Followed by the following:
quote:
Regular Middle Paleolithic inventories as well as Middle Paleolithic inventories of Aterian type have a long chronology in Morocco going back to MIS 6 and are interstratified in some sites. Their potential for detecting chrono-cultural patterns is low. The transition from the Middle to Upper Paleolithic, here termed Early Upper Paleolithic—at between 30 to 20 ka—remains a most enigmatic era. Scarce data from this period requires careful and fundamental reconsidering of human presence. By integrating environmental data in the reconstruction of population dynamics, clear correlations become obvious. High resolution data are lacking before 20 ka, and at some sites this period is characterized by the occurrence of sterile layers between Middle Paleolithic deposits, possibly indicative of a very low presence of humans in Morocco. After Heinrich Event 1, there is an enormous increase of data due to the prominent Late Iberomaurusian deposits that contrast strongly with the foregoing accumulations in terms of sedimentological features, fauna, and artifact composition. The Younger Dryas again shows a remarkable decline of data marking the end of the Paleolithic. Environmental improvements in the Holocene are associated with an extensive Epipaleolithic occupation. Therefore, the late glacial cultural sequence of Morocco is a good test case for analyzing the interrelationship of culture and climate change.
--Jörg Linstädter, Prehistoric Archaeology, Cologne University, GERMANY Josef Eiwanger, KAAK, German Archaeological Institute, GERMANY Abdessalam Mikdad, INSAP, MOROCCO Gerd-Christian Weniger, Neanderthal Museum, GERMANY
Late Pleistocene Human Occupation of Northwest Africa: A Crosscheck of Chronology and Climate Change in Morocco
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Quote: Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. Unquote.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
again, the analysis is of those mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African.
THE ROOT OF THE GENE WAS ALREADY PRESENT WITHIN AFRICANS. THE T/C SPLIT WAS ALREADY IN AFRICA, AS THESE POPULATIONS MIGRATED OUT OF AFRICA. THE C-SPLIT BECAME PREDOMINANT, THUS IT IS CALLED EURASIAN.
Then the after the Hg L occurrence the following happened.
quote:
Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
It the same story with skin color gene. It was too was already present in Africans.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
again, the analysis is of those mtDNA L haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians in general of which some are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
Quote: Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. Unquote.
--Frigi et al., 2010
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations
again, the analysis is of those mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians which are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African.
The alleles of the later mutations of the C-split were already in Africans. The papers you cited are making this distinction in the C-split.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: again, the analysis is of those mtDNA L haplogroups in Tunisians which are African
It is not an analysis of the mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisians in general of which some are Eurasian and are at higher frequencies than the African haplogroups
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African.
Let's try it different, what arose from L? And how come TafIII carried loci 16223T, which was along in Africans. As well as other transitions.
quote: ["No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe DO NOT FOLLOW similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote:
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311. We have collected sequences from the literature that fall into this cluster. From these sequences we have built a median-joining network by specifying the transversion at np 16114 and the deletion at np 16166 (Rando et al. 1998). The populations are scattered over the network; six nodes are shared between sub-Saharan and northwest African populations. The structure of the network can roughly be described as a double star with one of the centers being the ancestral haplotype. These nodes are separated at np 16293 (transition), testifying to an expansion event that involved both central sequence types. The age of this expansion is calculated as 16,000 years.
[...]
There were eight different haplotypes, and all were unique. Most of these haplotypes are phylogenetically divergent, indicating unrelated introduction to Tunisian populations from western or eastern sub-Saharan populations. Indeed, taking into account the Tunisian sequences belonging to haplogroup L2a from Sejnane, Zriba, Kesra, Matmata, Sned, and Chenini-Douiret, we obtain a divergence age of about 28,000 ± 8,900 years, which is the same age calculated for this haplogroup including all the described sequences. However, we noticed two pairs of related haplotypes in the Kesra population, where we detected a local evolution of the L2a cluster, suggesting that this haplogroup could have been introduced earlier in Kesra.
The article is not a general anaysis of mtDNA in Tunisians As the title states it is specific only to the local evolotion component so it cannot be used to argue that all mtDNA in Tunisians is African In fact most is not African.
This paper was obviously about the oldest clades in the region.
Further more they speak:
quote: The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). However, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies reflect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
--Frigi et al.
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posted
The Explorer, also noticed the same pattern.
Update on Investigation into the "Mysterious" EpiPaleolithic Maghrebi Remains!
quote:
Introduction
This entry is supposed to serve as an update and add-on to a blog entry that was first published here back in May 5th, 2010, under the heading, An Investigation into the "Mysterious" Mesolithic Maghrebi populations.
The arguments made there—in the main, are still quite sound, but over the years, some DNA-assignment shuffling within the reconstructed human mtDNA phylogenetic network had taken place. This sort of thing happens quite a bit in the field of molecular genetics, usually in the form of either changing the phylogenetic location of a newly identified clade or a preexisting one, and/or renaming entire clades with new naming schemes, since researchers tend to see information about larger phenomena in the form of fragments. As such, sometimes previous information (source material), especially on newly identified clades, becomes obscure or rarer. To address a situation such as this, in the few occasions where they may have occurred, this entry has revisited elements of the aforementioned entry, modify as necessary, or simply add to information previously posted.
Discussion
Another driver, though a minor one, for revisiting this subject, is the tremendous popularity of population genetics of coastal northern Africa in the so-called "west". People in the so-called "west" tend to have a bizarre fascination with coastal northern Africa, in contrast to enthusiasm greeted upon other areas of the continent, and in doing so, the people of the sub-region have been taken to "mystical" proportions, that is almost as ridiculous as speaking of extraterrestrial aliens transplanted into a new land where they would subsequently be cordoned off from preexisting inhabitants. With that said, as of this 2013 writing...
L1b and L2a subclades have tested positive for transition 16126C. L3 was earlier implicated (see older content of the main entry) in this mutation; examples for this, reportedly occur in the L3d, L3e (L3e2), and L3f clades [4].
Transition 16355T appears in subclade L5a, L2c, L2b, L2e [1], L1c3a1b, L3k1 [2], L4b2 [5] and L2d [3]. It’s worth noting the presence of this polymorphism in the so-called L-type aforementioned clades, but also, that while it appears in the R sub-haplogroup of the L3N clade, the location of both transition 16126C and 16355T in 2 mutually independent sub-haplogroups of the R clade, which are in turn mutually independent of hg N sub-haplo-groups N1a1a and N11 [2], where 16355T again appears, whereas either polymorphism is rendered absent in other sub-haplogroups of hg R and hg N super-clades, suggests that these polymorphisms have independently emerged multiple times in distinct mtDNA organelles.
These sites are thus highly polymorphic compared to some other sites, and chance occurrence in mutually independent mtDNA clades is also quite high; in other words, these polymorphisms in on themselves, cannot reliably be used in absence of additional differentiating data to draw solid conclusions about haplogroup assignment with high confidence. Also helpful, is the possible necessity of not only solid reproduction of results in more than a single individual [e.g. polymorphisms 16126C and 16355T were pinned on a single individual], but as noted in the earlier passages, solid reproductions of results involving several different runs of DNA sequencing involving the very same individuals.
More examples of convergent mutations across different mitochondrial clades, recalling other earlier posted material: Take the aforementioned mutations at np 16298 rendering the mtDNA clade assignment into divergent super-clades; to this end, L3 was given as an example—add hg M7b or M8, as other exemplary alternatives.
Likewise, the transition at np 16179 (16179T) has been reportedly identified in L3 (xL3M, L3N). While it remains valid that the noted mutations at np 16179 and 16298 respectively occur in hg L3h1, it is important to note, and hence clarify, that they don’t occur in a single haplotype, but two different sub-clades (L3h1b1 and L3h1a1 respectively [2]); better phylogenetic resolution of this clade over the course of nearly the last three years, i.e. since the main entry passages were posted, has now made it possible to pinpoint such specifics. On the other hand, no material yet available to the present author has shed light on occurrence of the 16179T mutation in hg V, the clade of Kefi et al.’s choice.
In the older passages of the main entry, it was mentioned that L1 could well be a relatively “distant possibility”, or alternative to that which Kefi & co. preferred to associate with the alleged incidence of the 16179T; it appears that since then, further shuffling of the human mtDNA phylogenetic network has now rendered the initial sourcing, which had led to the drawing of that assessment, obscure. However, in lieu, new publication puts forward L0dx [6], which is reportedly defined by 16179T and is reckoned to be a possible subclade of hg L0d1, as a possible candidate for DNA-assignment consideration. Clades L4b (L4b1), L3d, and L3e (L3e1) happen to be yet other such candidates.
Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example. The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).
The aforementioned L3h1b1 clade had been implicated in the polymorphism at np 16179; however, the same clade had also been implicated in the earlier entry as a possible candidate for clade assignment for the polymorphisms at np 16172 (16172C) and np 16126 (16126C). With regards to the latter situation, it appears that DNA network reshuffling has—once again—now rendered the primary source for this observation either obscure or outdated, in contrast to what the situation was back in 2010. The subclade which may have had the necessary nucleotide attributes that fit these two latter polymorphisms under L3h1b may have been reassigned to some other position within the mtDNA network. As such, it’s only fitting to look towards what currently available information suggests:
Citing from earlier posting, it was noted...
The positions "16172C" and the aforementioned "16126C" could place a specimen (Taf XXIV) in a rare L3h1b1 marker, and likewise, Taf V19E in either some L3h1b1 derivative, L1a subclade, or even M1 subclade, which all have variants bearing the 16172C mutation, assuming that Kefi et al.'s reports for either specimens doesn't involve exogenous mutations, and that homoplasic mutational events took place across hgs L3h1b1, L1a, U6, M1 and possibly, per Kefi et al.'s reckoning, JT in the HVR1 control region. - An Investigation into the "Mysterious" Mesolithic Maghrebi populations, 2010.
The earlier noting of 16172C location within Hgs M1, U6, and L1a still have merit, although it’s worth noting that L1a has been re-assign in the network or treated as L0a in some publications. L1, L3e1, L3, and L4b2a2 (L4b2a2b) have all tested positive for 16172C polymorphism.
With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.
To build on the last few observations, L3e2b clades (including L3e2b1a1, L3e2b3 sub-clades [4]) have tested positive for both 16126C and 16172C [4]. There is rarely, if any, publication that treats 16126C as a primary identifying polymorphism for U6, yet Kefi et al. has treated this mutation just as that.
References are as follows:
1 - Kerchner.com
2 - PhyloTree.org
3 - Howell et al. 2004, African Haplogroup L mtDNA Sequences Show Violations of Clock-like Evolution.
4 - Family Tree DNA
5 - SNPedia
6- Schlebusch et al. 2013, MtDNA control region variation affirms diversity and deep sub-structure in populations from southern Africa.
— Kefi et al. (2005), Mitochondrial Diversity of the Population of Taforalt (12,000 years b.p. - Morocco): A Genetic Study Approach to the Peopling of North Africa.
Recommended reading: An Investigation into the "Mysterious" Mesolithic Maghrebi populations
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Kefi's haplogroup assignments are biased because she omits many Hg L possibilities.
Also, if one literally does the math, one will see Kefi overlooks Taf VIII as African component but then slyly and covertly figures it into her total Eurasian component freq no way to get to 100% without counting Taf VIII.
Kefi was hell bent on denying any African contribution to Maurusian industry and people except local littoral Maghreb.
One of the things she plainly proposed was to see if SSA had anything to do w/Maurusian.
Kefi quite clearly and w/o any ambiguity strikes off what she calls sub-Sudanese in the peopling of Maurusian.
To do that she ignores any L haplogroup possibilities and what's worse for the one sample she couldn't find a non-SSA hg (Taf VIII) she blithely ignores as if no one can see it too is a part of Maurusian peopling.
Again, do the math, no joke. Kefi's math doesn't add up.
Well at least in 2009 Kefi admitted Sudan genetics go back to 9k in NA. But she still didn't 'fess up her 2005 errors about 13k Taforalt having no non-local African mtDNA, i.e., L3/M/N per her own report.
And when we use Kefi2005's raw data, as sparse as it is, we uncover a 29% supposedly "SSA" component from a variety of L haplogroups.
2 of the 4 Kefi H? samples could be L. 2 of the 3 Kefi JT samples could be L. 1 of the 2 Kefi _V samples could be L.
For instance, in her PPt slide, posted above by the Lioness, Kefi throws out TafVIII. Is it in order to deny an inner African component in epipaleolithic Taforalt? It is her only sample of possible L3, M, or N affiliation. There were only two U6 samples yet Kefi did not exclude them among originators of "Ibero-Maurusians."
Clearly if the L3/M/N individual was found at Taforalt then she was just as much an "Ibero-Maurusian" originator as the two U6 females were. 4% is as weighty as 8% when the true heavy weight ranks in at 50%.
Kefi's table has 23 entries.
The three Taf V entries were reduced to one, leaving a base of 21 entries.
Kefi has: * local North African U6 at 9.5% (2/21) * presumed foreign H U JT V at 90.5% (but 18/21 = 85.7%) * presumed "sub-Sudanese" L3/M/N at 0% (but 1/21 = 4.8%)
Note that 9.5 + 85.7 = 95.2 not 100
To arrive at 90.5% for H U JT V Kefi had to add the sub-Sudanese 4.8% to the foreign 85.7%. Kefi, with a stroke of the pen and hoping no one would notice, added sub-Sudanese L3/M/N to the Eurasiatic component.
Also, it is very significant that an L3/M/N female was living that far north so near the very shoreline of N Africa at that point in time with her other African mtDNA sisters of the U6 haplogroup.
Taf VIII one of the Taforalt physical remains This is the one Kefi had to admit its DNA was in the L/M/N category i.e., same as her sub-Sudanese.
Since climatology disallows for flow from 15 north lat from 22 - 12 kya then its ancestress was there from the start of the Maurusian industry just like the U6, H, and the alleged V and JT ancestresses.
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posted
Amun Ra it's like you say, they sneak these proxies in by showing only their African DNA Then once they taken up residence in your house, it's too late to bring up their Eurasian component- they already got let in the door
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Some of these haplogroups H, U , JT, V, U6, L are Eurasian others are African The sample is 12,000 years old
Therefore Eurasians were in Morocco 12,000 years ago right Trollkillah?
I need a yes, no, or " I'm not sure" otherwise I can't continue
THE ROOT OF THE GENE (alleles in T/C) WAS ALREADY PRESENT WITHIN AFRICANS. THE T/C SPLIT WAS ALREADY IN AFRICA, AS THESE POPULATIONS MIGRATED OUT OF AFRICA. THE C-SPLIT BECAME PREDOMINANT, THUS IT IS CALLED EURASIAN. THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT EURASIAN. BUT THEY SIMPLY SEGREGATED IT FOR THE BENEFIT.
I've posted cited several other posters, like IronLion and The Explorer, who have noticed the same I did. And Tukuler also gave the same explanation.
Instead of circumventing, you could have answered my questions. What arose out off Hg L? And why is Taf VIII carrying the oldest signatures?
I've even posted databases. So let's just say, you don't get it, as usually.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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^this Plaza et al article is the source for Fadhlaoui-Zid 's article > Genetic structure of Tunisian ethnic groups revealed by paternal lineages, 2011
So as we can see TUN = Tunisian They have both African and Eurasian DNA
So your claim that Tunisians only have L mtDNA is false They also have significant frequencies of Eurasian mtDNA
Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome microstructurein Tunisia Hajer Ennafaa 2011
No one is saying there is on "L". What is being said is that from L these other haplotypes arose, within the region. Since these transitions were already in place. In L sequences. The segregation is being made in T/C. While T and C remarkably and ironically both arose within Africa (Africans). But as was stated before, you don't research, you just copy and paste, all day, everyday.
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Some of these haplogroups H, U , JT, V, U6, L are Eurasian others are African The sample is 12,000 years old
Therefore Eurasians were in Morocco 12,000 years ago right Trollkillah?
I need a yes, no, or " I'm not sure" otherwise I can't continue
THE ROOT OF THE GENE (alleles in T/C) WAS ALREADY PRESENT WITHIN AFRICANS. THE T/C SPLIT WAS ALREADY IN AFRICA, AS THESE POPULATIONS MIGRATED OUT OF AFRICA. THE C-SPLIT BECAME PREDOMINANT, THUS IT IS CALLED EURASIAN. THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT EURASIAN. BUT THEY SIMPLY SEGREGATED IT FOR THE BENEFIT.
I've posted cited several other posters, like IronLion and The Explorer, who have noticed the same I did. And Tukuler also gave the same explanation.
Instead of circumventing, you could have answered my question. What arose out off Hg L?
I've even posted databases. So let's just say, you don't get it, as usually.
Every maternal haplogroup has an African Hg L ancestor However some of the haplogroups descendant of L evolved outside of Africa, thousands of years after their ancestors left Africa
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Some of these haplogroups H, U , JT, V, U6, L are Eurasian others are African The sample is 12,000 years old
Therefore Eurasians were in Morocco 12,000 years ago right Trollkillah?
I need a yes, no, or " I'm not sure" otherwise I can't continue
THE ROOT OF THE GENE (alleles in T/C) WAS ALREADY PRESENT WITHIN AFRICANS. THE T/C SPLIT WAS ALREADY IN AFRICA, AS THESE POPULATIONS MIGRATED OUT OF AFRICA. THE C-SPLIT BECAME PREDOMINANT, THUS IT IS CALLED EURASIAN. THIS DOESN'T MAKE IT EURASIAN. BUT THEY SIMPLY SEGREGATED IT FOR THE BENEFIT.
I've posted cited several other posters, like IronLion and The Explorer, who have noticed the same I did. And Tukuler also gave the same explanation.
Instead of circumventing, you could have answered my question. What arose out off Hg L?
I've even posted databases. So let's just say, you don't get it, as usually.
Every maternal haplogroup has an African Hg L ancestor However some of the haplogroups descendant of L evolved outside of Africa, thousands of years after their ancestors left Africa
What I'm asking is, what arose from L, why is the question so difficult for you to understand?
And again, as has been shown, the transitions of T/C were already in place. Thousands of years before they left Africa. Thus we have Taf VIII as evidence for this. Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
I just told you every mtDNA haplogroup derives from L, the immediate sub branches M and N That does not mean every mtDNA haplogroup arose in Africa
If you think haplogroup H, arose from L inside Africa then be a man and say it, stop playing games trying to test me
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I just told you every mtDNA haplogroup derives from L, the immediate sub branches M and N That does not mean every mtDNA haplogroup arose in Africa
If you think haplogroup H, arose from L inside Africa then be a man and say it, stop playing games trying to test me
No, you told something else as from now.
Anyway, these oldest branches in Africa already had these T/C transitions.
However, you still can't explain Taf VIII, and why these alleles were already present in the older "L" variants. Thus why the C-split of T/C, becomes Eurasian all of a sudden. Even though the basal is within Africa.
So they real question becomes, who is really trying to play games here?
quote: "No southwest Asian specific clades for M1 or U6 were discovered. U6 and M1 frequencies in North Africa, the Middle East and Europe DO NOT FOLLOW similar patterns, and their sub-clade divisions do not appear to be compatible with their shared history reaching back to the Early Upper Palaeolithic."
--Erwan Pennarun, Toomas Kivisild et al.
Divorcing the Late Upper Palaeolithic demographic histories of mtDNA haplogroups M1 and U6 in Africa
quote: The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). However, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies reflect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
--Frigi et al.
Don't say the L-word. Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] I just told you every mtDNA haplogroup derives from L, the immediate sub branches M and N That does not mean every mtDNA haplogroup arose in Africa
If you think haplogroup H, arose from L inside Africa then be a man and say it, stop playing games trying to test me
No, you told something else as from now.
Anyway, these oldest branches in Africa already had these T/C transitions.
However, you still can't explain Taf VIII, and why these alleles were already present in the older "L" variants. Thus why the C-split of T/C, becomes Eurasian all of a sudden. Even though the basal is within Africa.
Taf VIII is listed as L3 or M or N (M btw has highest diversity in India) If one specimen may or may not have been African or part African that does not mean you can disregard the alleles of all the other specimens -which is what you are doing
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Here again we can see East and West Africans clustering very close with one another along with other African populations (biologically, physiologically).
At the top, we can see African populations, at the bottom non-African populations.
It's nothing special since it has been demonstrated many times that almost all black African people have their origin in Northeastern Africa at a period of time postdating the OOA migrations. From where they later immigrated in the Green Sahara and eventually in the rest of Africa. For example, most Africans are from the E haplogroups or have their language family originating there in Northeastern Africa.
This chart does not prove that modern Africans priginated in East Africa, .
It is a strong indication, although it does not prove it by itself, but both genetic and linguistic analysis of most modern African people demonstrates they had their origin relatively recently, later than the OOA migrations, in northeastern Africa. The rest of your post comes back to ignoring any kind of morphological study of human remains to analyse population affiliation because of local adaptation. Physiological traits, like post-cranial morphology, are both (genetically) inherited and influenced by local variations. In the graph posted we see both similarities and differences between African post-cranial data. African populations are at the top and cluster with one another, non-African populations are at the bottom, while at the same time African population expresses differences between one another even within the same population (same for European and other population of course see for example France and Germany two neighboring countries). Still, basically African populations cluster with one another at the top and non-African at the bottom. In particular, East and West Africans don't just share post-cranial physiological similarities but also the same genetic origin as most of them are from the E-P2 haplogroups which originated in northeastern Africa.
As for the genetic and linguistic origin of most modern African people in Northeast Africa, I made many elaborate threads and posts about it, but this is enough to make my point:
LINGUISTIC ORIGIN OF MOST MODERN AFRICAN PEOPLE :
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)
Clearly all modern African language families are said to have originated in Northeastern Africa.
GENETICS ORIGIN OF MOST MODERN AFRICAN PEOPLE :
quote: Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa , as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .
-- from A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms (Trombetta 2011)
The same probably can be said about (downstream or midstream) A and B haplogroups carrier populations (like Khoisan, many Nilo-Saharans), even more so considering their linguistic origin. E and E-P2 is the dominating lineage across Africa.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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You better stop citing all these researchers because they don't support you. Just give it up. Ehret doesn't support you either. Ehret doesn't believe that all African populations historically have an origin in NRY E, regardless of whether all African populations today have it. Ehret also doesn't support that the populations who speak these putative East African languages historically have a biological origin which coincides with these languages. How many more thrashings do you intent on soliciting over this "Africans are historically linguistically and biologically close" fairy tale? You are completely in the dark as to what these researchers think, you are completely in the dark about what these data say and you're completely on your own; no one with a shred of sense in the anthropological community supports or even entertains your fairy tales.
*African populations don't all have a historical origin in E. If that were true than the Chadic Ouldeme population, which consists almost exclusively of NRY R bearers, have a historical origin in NRY R and the Ouldeme population has no African paternal roots beyond 7ky.
*Africans don't all have biological origins which coincide with the languages they speak.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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So let me understand... the arguments on here is that Amun-Ra The Ultimate thinks that since Africans liken Ethiopians are closer to Eurasians that those types of Africans are admixed? If that's the case then he is incorrect.
Eurasians only descend from a small pocket of Africans(East Africans):
quote:The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity—and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis—makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998)—that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe.
Again doesn't mean East Africans are heavily mixed, but that Eurasians descend from those SPECIFIC Africans. And thus East Africans are closer to Eurasians than any other Afrcian. Duh!
This is the same thing with the Greeks:
quote:HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum[B], like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) [B]Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt.
When it comes to genetic distance Greeks are closer to Africans than any other European group, but they are still indigenous Europeans.
Djehuti mentioned that there were multiple OOA's. Not only that we know like India; Europe was populated many time throughout time. Could Greeks be descendant of migrating Northeast Africans into Western Asia and then Southeast Europe? I mean they carry mutated E-V13 in high frequencies. Along with Benin sickle cell haplotype.
Not saying modern Greeks are African of course.
Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012
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The problem with what he is saying is that what inevitably follows out of his proposition is that Ethiopians are 40-50% African and that Dinka are also Near Eastern to an extent that most people would intuitively find preposterous.
What follows out of his crackpot reasoning is that all Africans can be genetic stand-ins for each other's ancestry, e.g. when you want to gauge the African component in a Rendille or Tuareg individual, you can do this by counting the amount of Nigerian haplotypes in the Rendille and you will have an approximation of how African a given Rendille individual is. This is completely false seeing as Rendille have ancestry subsets of their own which they do not share with Africans elsewhere on the continent. This ancestry includes ancestry which post-dates the Rendille-YRI split as well as ancestry which the ancestors of OOA populations had and this is reflected by various tests..
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@Son of Ra: At the end of it, you can believe what you want it wont change the facts. Of course if you don't address any of my points posted above, we can't move the discussion forward.
The situation is pretty simple. ***After*** the OOA populations left Africa. Yes AFTER. E carriers and eventually E-P2 carriers were part of the SAME population. The population of the E and eventually the E-P2 grandfathers. E and E-P2 weren't part of the OOA migrations (nor MtDNA L haplogroup carriers for that matter).
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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I advise everyone to periodically check Amun-Ra's claims for accuracy by tracing the sources he's attributing his shaky beliefs to (that is, when he's actually posting selectively from various sources; most of the time he provides his own dogma-based fairy-tale opinions on dendrograms and visual graphics from from actual studies).
For instance, contra to what he's saying repeatedly, Tishkoff et al don't align themselves at all with his shaky claims. Neither does Ehret. Ehret doesn't think that the distribution of languages spoken in Africa today reflect Pleistocene realities. This is diametrically opposed to what Amun Ra attributes to Ehret, namely, that most Africans have their biological roots in Late Pleistocene East Africa, because their languages derived from Late Pleistocene East Africa.
quote:"Now, does that mean that the proto-languages of those four families were the only languages spoken in Africa, at the close of the Pleistocene? Of course it doesn't. There would have been hundreds of other languages spoken in Africa just as there are today. But since the end of the pleistocene, the speakers of those four families [Niger-Kordofanian, Khoisan, Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan] happen to have been the ones that mostly did the spreading out into new areas. And as they spread in new areas, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, they eventually spread over larger parts of the continent. As they gradually expanded into new territories, they incorporated eventually the people already living in those areas, into their societies. And so as a result, the other languages that might have been spoken in the Late Pleistocene in Africa, eventually passed out of use; they became extinct."
quote:Originally posted by Trollkillah # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] I just told you every mtDNA haplogroup derives from L, the immediate sub branches M and N That does not mean every mtDNA haplogroup arose in Africa
If you think haplogroup H, arose from L inside Africa then be a man and say it, stop playing games trying to test me
No, you told something else as from now.
Anyway, these oldest branches in Africa already had these T/C transitions.
However, you still can't explain Taf VIII, and why these alleles were already present in the older "L" variants. Thus why the C-split of T/C, becomes Eurasian all of a sudden. Even though the basal is within Africa.
Taf VIII is listed as L3 or M or N (M btw has highest diversity in India) If one specimen may or may not have been African or part African that does not mean you can disregard the alleles of all the other specimens -which is what you are doing
The alleles sequenced were already in place in Africans long before they migrated out of Africa. What part don't you get about this?
The T/C split already was in Africans before the left Africa, what part don't you get about this?
C-split was already within Africa, what part don't you get about this?
The small pockets of people who left Africa, to populate world carried these alleles along with them, what part don't you understand about this?
Whether Hg M is highest diverse in Indian has nothing to do whit the subject at hand. We are speaking of the root of the locus, which is in Africa. Meaning it migrated out, not in!
This is why Taf VIII is definitely African. As well as the others which arose from this older one. Fact is written in the old clades.
code:
Geography Founder Analysis
Migration Time (ka) % of L3 Lineages (SE)
East Africa 58.8 74.0 (0.5)
1.8 20.1 (2.6) 0.1 5.9 (2.5)
Central Africa 42.4 75.0 (2.7) 9.2 24.1 (2.8) 0.1 0.9 (0.2)
North Africa 35.0 7.4 (2.7) 6.6 67.0 (4.0) 0.6 25.7 (3.1)
South Africa 3.2 86.7 (4.3) 0.1 13.3 (4.3)
South Africa (southern)1.8 83.4 (3.7) 0.1 16.6 (3.7)
quote: "This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP"
[...]
Our results demonstrate an ancient local evolution in Tunisia of some African haplogroups (L2a, L3*, and L3b).
--Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity—and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis—makes simple-admixture models less likely;[/b] rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998)—that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] @Son of Ra
and that Dinka are also Near Eastern to an extent that most people would intuitively find preposterous.
Sudan has a population over 30 million, many are of Arab/Levantine descent others Arabized. The Dinka are around 5 million If you speak of the Eurasian component of Sudan, Dinka are averaged in That doesn't mean each ethnic group has the same proportion of Eurasian admixture, some may have little to none, others may be primarily non-African So you can't take an intuitive look at the physical appearance of one ethnic group in the country and then say because they might not allign to the statistcal average of Near East ancestry for the whole country that the the statistcal average is preposterous
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Here again we can see East and West Africans clustering very close with one another along with other African populations (biologically, physiologically).
At the top, we can see African populations, at the bottom non-African populations.
It's nothing special since it has been demonstrated many times that almost all black African people have their origin in Northeastern Africa at a period of time postdating the OOA migrations. From where they later immigrated in the Green Sahara and eventually in the rest of Africa. For example, most Africans are from the E haplogroups or have their language family originating there in Northeastern Africa.
This chart does not prove that modern Africans priginated in East Africa, .
It is a strong indication, although it does not prove it by itself, but both genetic and linguistic analysis of most modern African people demonstrates they had their origin relatively recently, later than the OOA migrations, in northeastern Africa. The rest of your post comes back to ignoring any kind of morphological study of human remains to analyse population affiliation because of local adaptation. Physiological traits, like post-cranial morphology, are both (genetically) inherited and influenced by local variations. In the graph posted we see both similarities and differences between African post-cranial data. African populations are at the top and cluster with one another, non-African populations are at the bottom, while at the same time African population expresses differences between one another even within the same population (same for European and other population of course see for example France and Germany two neighboring countries). Still, basically African populations cluster with one another at the top and non-African at the bottom. In particular, East and West Africans don't just share post-cranial physiological similarities but also the same genetic origin as most of them are from the E-P2 haplogroups which originated in northeastern Africa.
As for the genetic and linguistic origin of most modern African people in Northeast Africa, I made many elaborate threads and posts about it, but this is enough to make my point:
LINGUISTIC ORIGIN OF MOST MODERN AFRICAN PEOPLE :
Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)
Clearly all modern African language families are said to have originated in Northeastern Africa.
GENETICS ORIGIN OF MOST MODERN AFRICAN PEOPLE :
quote: Using the principle of the phylogeographic parsimony, the resolution of the E1b1b trifurcation in favor of a common ancestor of E-M2 and E-M329 strongly supports the hypothesis that haplogroup E1b1 originated in eastern Africa , as previously suggested [10], and that chromosomes E-M2, so frequently observed in sub-Saharan Africa, trace their descent to a common ancestor present in eastern Africa .
-- from A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms (Trombetta 2011)
The same probably can be said about (downstream or midstream) A and B haplogroups carrier populations (like Khoisan, many Nilo-Saharans), even more so considering their linguistic origin. E and E-P2 is the dominating lineage across Africa.
I wonder why you're trying to segregate African people. Like that old colonial divide and conquer.
The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 88 Supplemental Data
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Fulvio Cruciani, Beniamino Trombetta, Andrea Massaia, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Daniele Sellitto, and Rosaria Scozzari
See, Table S1. Haplogroup Affiliation of the Seven Chromosomes that Were Re-sequenced.
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