quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Your dog here are Berbers. It's pretty obvious. You must think people are really stupid so they don't see what's going on.
That sounded pretty racist if you ask me.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You Africans (North , West and East) need to stop bickering amongst your selves.. As a diasporan I have an objective and impartial viewpoint. I have no dog in this fight.
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Y’all P2. Nilo-Saharans(East) being the parent of both North And West Africans. West Africans being the lil brother.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: You Africans (North , West and East) need to stop bickering amongst your selves.. As a diasporan I have an objective and impartial viewpoint. I have no dog in this fight.
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posted
xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? 2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. 3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. 4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Your dog here are Berbers. It's pretty obvious. You must think people are really stupid so they don't see what's going on.
Whats wrong with Troll Patrol being Berber???
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Your dog here are Berbers. It's pretty obvious. You must think people are really stupid so they don't see what's going on.
Whats wrong with Troll Patrol being Berber???
Nothing. For one Troll Patrol is NOT a Berber, the same way Djehuti is NOT a Filipino. (those 2 ids are both white racists pretending to be something else). Berbers or North Africans in general (beside those who actually are) don't pretend they are black Africans. Only stupid white racists would come up with ridiculous things like this. They are a mix of Middle Eastern, European and African people closer genetically, culturally and historically to Eurasians and the Middle East. Which is great. I was talking to xyyman pretending he had no "dog" in this forum.
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@Amun-Ra The Ultimate. What about berber culture is Eurasian and middle Easetern?
Is it their language? Their music? Their dance? Their food and customs? Their facial tattoos and clothing? Their pastoralism?
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @Amun-Ra The Ultimate. What about berber culture is Eurasian and middle Easetern?
Is it their language? Their music? Their dance? Their food and customs? Their facial tattoos and clothing? Their pastoralism?
Thanks for admitting they are closer to Eurasian and the Middle East genetically and historically.
As for the answer to your questions, I would say all of the above particularly history and religion. It must be said that all the traditional cultures of the world are pretty similar. Berbers are their own people, differentiated genetically, historically and culturally from black Africans, but still great people as any people of course.
I'm always interested into tracing the real history of the people, not typologically separating them. That point is very important. The culture of Ancient Greeks is pretty similar to traditional culture in Ancient Egypt, Celts, Africa and over the whole world. Still Ancient Greeks are culturally and historically Europeans. It's not about finding differences or similarities but truly determining their history (and the history of their culture, customs, languages, religions, etc).
For example, let's say Ancient Greeks danced the same way as Shinto practitioners in Japan, so they have similar culture points, it doesn't mean Ancient Greeks are Japanese culturally or vice-versa. Ancient Greeks are culturally Europeans no matter their similarities with other cultures. They are the products of European people who migrated into that area and developed their culture. Albeit often in a similar way as other people around the world.
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I cannot post pics right now but…. ---------- Quote by Beyoku xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? Alec knight et al – African Y Chromosomes….Table 1 page 3. clearly shows M35 limited in Bantus, infact upstream YAP is also limited in Bantus. Proving that Bantus are youngest in the African groups and language. M112, M150, B2a, B2b is found more in Nilo-Saharan and “pygmies”. Ingact hg-B iis widely considered a “pygmie” lineage. So.. What is your point?
2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. Pygmies are not Agriculturist although they speak a Bantu language. Bantu agriculturist are essentially E-M2. Se same table 1.
3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. ?? M81 is a sub-clade of M-35. M-35 has highest frequency in North West Africa and the Nile region. M-35 occupied North Africa prior to M-2 entering West Africa!!. If you Look ate the table TP posted, the para-Hg to M-35 is found through-out North Africa, into Europe and parts of Souuth Africa. Significance?
4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree: ??do not have the phyloTree in front of me just right now.
Nevertheless - ------ Quote: M112 has been observed only very RARELY outside of Khwe and San, forest, and Hadzabe populations. Two exceptions considered here likely reflect RECENT gene flow from foraging Hadzabe and Biaka to NEIGHBORING AGRICULTURAL peoples. --- See , I do know something about African ethnic groups. I need to remind Y’all. Take notes when I post.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? 2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. 3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. 4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: ^^^Your dog here are Berbers. It's pretty obvious. You must think people are really stupid so they don't see what's going on.
Whats wrong with Troll Patrol being Berber???
Nothing. For one Troll Patrol is NOT a Berber, the same way Djehuti is NOT a Filipino. (those 2 ids are both white racists pretending to be something else). Berbers or North Africans in general (beside those who actually are) don't pretend they are black Africans. Only stupid white racists would come up with ridiculous things like this. They are a mix of Middle Eastern, European and African people closer genetically, culturally and historically to Eurasians and the Middle East. Which is great. I was talking to xyyman pretending he had no "dog" in this forum.
Last time I checked in the mirror, I wasn't white.
Perhaps something happened...
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @Amun-Ra The Ultimate. What about berber culture is Eurasian and middle Easetern?
Is it their language? Their music? Their dance? Their food and customs? Their facial tattoos and clothing? Their pastoralism?
Berbers are their own people, differentiated genetically, historically and culturally from black Africans, but still great people as any people of course.
I'm always interested into tracing the real history of the people, not typologically separating them.
Thus far you haven't done a great job. It actually sounded ridiculous.
posted
To sum up. B2a, B2b is NOT a ethnic Bantu line. It is primarily pygmy and Nilo-Saharan. E-M2 is the primary ethnic Bantu line. It is the youngest of all three. B2a, M35 and E-M2. The nutation spawning M-81 probably occurred in North West Africa, Why? The presence of the paragroup (M-35) as far as Iberia and other Sardinia, including Southern Africa. Source posted by TP.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
OK. Here is your answer. ----- A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms - Beniamino Trombett eta l Pg 3 Fig 1 (B). E-V68 and E-V257 are upstream of E-M81 and E-M78. The same two are downstream of E-M35. Significance? Answer- as the author also pointed out. These are Africans migrating into Europe through Northern Africa and NOT the Middle East. This points to a presence of E-M35 occuping North Africa PRIOR to the Bantu incursion into West Africa. E-M329 has no “age” assigned to it but agreed it is a paragroup of E-M2. I don’t see an age for E-M329 but I see one for E-M2 as little as 7kya!!!
So what I stated still stands. Bantus are the youngest of Africans. All the cited data corraborate each other. Get it! Got it! Take notes.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I cannot post pics right now but…. ---------- Quote by Beyoku xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? Alec knight et al – African Y Chromosomes….Table 1 page 3. clearly shows M35 limited in Bantus, infact upstream YAP is also limited in Bantus. Proving that Bantus are youngest in the African groups and language. M112, M150, B2a, B2b is found more in Nilo-Saharan and “pygmies”. Ingact hg-B iis widely considered a “pygmie” lineage. So.. What is your point?
2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. Pygmies are not Agriculturist although they speak a Bantu language. Bantu agriculturist are essentially E-M2. Se same table 1.
3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. ?? M81 is a sub-clade of M-35. M-35 has highest frequency in North West Africa and the Nile region. M-35 occupied North Africa prior to M-2 entering West Africa!!. If you Look ate the table TP posted, the para-Hg to M-35 is found through-out North Africa, into Europe and parts of Souuth Africa. Significance?
4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree: ??do not have the phyloTree in front of me just right now.
Nevertheless - ------ Quote: M112 has been observed only very RARELY outside of Khwe and San, forest, and Hadzabe populations. Two exceptions considered here likely reflect RECENT gene flow from foraging Hadzabe and Biaka to NEIGHBORING AGRICULTURAL peoples. --- See , I do know something about African ethnic groups. I need to remind Y’all. Take notes when I post.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? 2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. 3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. 4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @Amun-Ra The Ultimate. What about berber culture is Eurasian and middle Easetern?
Is it their language? Their music? Their dance? Their food and customs? Their facial tattoos and clothing? Their pastoralism?
Berbers are their own people, differentiated genetically, historically and culturally from black Africans, but still great people as any people of course.
I'm always interested into tracing the real history of the people, not typologically separating them.
Thus far you haven't done a great job. It actually sounded ridiculous.
I'm doing a great job, your stupid undercover ass just don't like it. Even Swenet and Beyoku had to admit I was right about the common origin of East and West Africans on both MtDNA and Y-DNA sides. Now Beyoku and you are just trying to distract us with some other proxy Eurasian populations in Africa.
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I should be paid for this!!! Sammy/Neal where are you?
@ Lioness – this also support my view that Kinky hair may be recent “adaptation’. Going back to that thread with the Lunatic. This does not negate the fact that most indigenous Africans are black skinned …….as they should be
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Judging by Cesare de Filippo et al Y-Chromosomal Variation in Sub-Saharan Africa: Insights Into the History of Niger-Congo Groups Mol Biol Evol (2011) 28 (3): 1255-1269
BaNtu nrY signatures are far from basal; E1b1a7a (E-U174), E1b1a8 (E-U175). Their far derivitive lineages show their comparatively young age of ~3.3k.
E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), the "Berber" signature, is not that much older at ~5.6k.
In genetic relationship the two are more like 3rd cousins than brothers.
E-M2 and E-M35 are cousin haplogroups from E-P2. E-M2 basically flourished in Africa from Sahara southward E-M35 expanded towards the north and east in Africa.
E-M81 derives from E-M35
E-M2 is mostly Sub-Saharan is one kind of African hg. E-M81 is Northwestern is another African hg variety.
Both are African, but E-M81 though related to sub-Sahara isn't there, so not an SSA-category.
Here are the E kin in a Chiaronia 2009 graphic phylogeny and here're the E kin by Trombetta's 2011 text phylogeny .
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I cannot post pics right now but…. ---------- Quote by Beyoku xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? Alec knight et al – African Y Chromosomes….Table 1 page 3. clearly shows M35 limited in Bantus, infact upstream YAP is also limited in Bantus. Proving that Bantus are youngest in the African groups and language. M112, M150, B2a, B2b is found more in Nilo-Saharan and “pygmies”. Ingact hg-B iis widely considered a “pygmie” lineage. So.. What is your point?
2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. Pygmies are not Agriculturist although they speak a Bantu language. Bantu agriculturist are essentially E-M2. Se same table 1.
3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. ?? M81 is a sub-clade of M-35. M-35 has highest frequency in North West Africa and the Nile region. M-35 occupied North Africa prior to M-2 entering West Africa!!. If you Look ate the table TP posted, the para-Hg to M-35 is found through-out North Africa, into Europe and parts of Souuth Africa. Significance?
4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree: ??do not have the phyloTree in front of me just right now.
Nevertheless - ------ Quote: M112 has been observed only very RARELY outside of Khwe and San, forest, and Hadzabe populations. Two exceptions considered here likely reflect RECENT gene flow from foraging Hadzabe and Biaka to NEIGHBORING AGRICULTURAL peoples. --- See , I do know something about African ethnic groups. I need to remind Y’all. Take notes when I post.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: xyyman - Few questions and things to ponder:
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? 2 - What of E2 and B2a - Lineages that are pretty frequent in Bantu speakers ..particularly East and Southern.....both predating the origin of the M81 SNP classic of Berber speakers. 3 - Notice the image that you keep posting with the distribution maps: The dates of M2*, M58, M191, M154 (also M75 and M329) are all older than M81....in fact the M2 lineages are 10ky older in that image. 4 - Notice M329. You do know that M329 and M2 are united right.....look at their ages in comparison to M81. This is the new tree:
1 - You said PN2* You didnt saying anything about M35. You do understand that "PN2*" is not "M35" right? Keep up.
2 - This is ONE Article. Again keep up. There are E2b1 and B2a1a lineages found in Bantu speakers that are very old. In fact both these lineages have peaks in Central Western Africa and the Sahel that predate Bantu speakers....or in places where there are no Bantu speakers. B2a1a in the Sahel in fact seems to be Associated with Nilo-Saharan and Chadic speakers. B2a is also found in Northern and Southern Egyptians owing to its ancient diversity across the continent. Then you haven't addressed M2* and its age.....older than M81. Considering the AGE of the modern Sahara and the Ages of M2 and M81 what would stop M2 from Traveling North and would stop M81 from going south? - THe Sahara correct? Under what circumstance would E1b1a span both sides but M81 is restricted to the North and is noted in RECENT migration south only 500 years ago....basically in the Tuareg?
3 - M35* ancestral reaches peaks in Ethiopia. The far derived lineage of M81 peaks in the Maghreb @ 100% : M215>M35>Z827>V257>M81. Other derived and ancestral lineages peak in the Horn at 100%....See the Beja in Hirbo et al. Speak of which specific lineages you are talking about because making an argument using "M35" is a nonstarter as M35 is NOT the diagnostic marker of "Berbers", M81 is. Every time you open your mouth = FAIL because you admittedly decided long ago it wasn't important to research intra-African genetic variation.
4 - B-M112 or B2b is a marker Diagnostic of Hunter-gatherers of East Africa, Pygmies and those that have mixed with them. B2b has a TOTALLY difference history compared to B2a. Not even sure why you brought up B2b. You dont know shiit,. M35 being in North Africa prior to M2 being in West Africa really means nothing in relation to Berbers. The have a RECENT split paternally....and a RECENT split linguistically.
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Ok let me dumb it down. For those who learn through pictures....Notice E-M35 is NOt found in Topical West Africa!!!
I haven't looked at African sub-groups under a microscope. I am referring to the upstream h-group from the git go.
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posted
E-M2 may be as young as 7kyo!! Sage cited a source putting it at only 3kyo.
Bantus are the youngest African yet they think they own Africa.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Hey! I am keeping it real. I am E1b1a(E-M2)(not the sub-clade) diasporan. So my line is older than the younger E1b1a7. IIRC you tested as E1b1a7
So My line go back further in Africa. Same as Rameses III!!(wink)
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers? Alec knight et al – African Y Chromosomes….Table 1 page 3. clearly shows M35 limited in Bantus, infact upstream YAP is also limited in Bantus. Proving that Bantus are youngest in the African groups and language. M112, M150, B2a, B2b is found more in Nilo-Saharan and “pygmies”. Infact hg-B is widely considered a “pygmy” lineage. So.. ...
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posted
1 - Can you give us a screen shot of PN2* being high among Nilo-Saharan speakers?
Nilo Sahrans and Click speakers essentially carry ALL clades within hg-E. And a high amount within hg-A. Meaning?? Proving their ancient connection.
To those who are NOT connecting the dots...Rameses III and the Amarnas are closest to ..you guessed it. Nilo-Saharans and South Africans. Does it make sense now. 3rd in line are the West Africans over Maghrebians. Why? Magrebians had already migrated out of the Nile region. " The big brother had already left home"
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Retard Retard Retard. XYY...Nowhere in your literature does it speak of PN2* or E1b1* "Underived".
Pn2* also known as E1b1* also known as E3* is NOT found in Northern Africa. It is restricted to Sub Saharan East and West Africa. You cannot even argue about the lineages because you are unfamiliar with the terminology.
Older intances of E1b1* "Underived"
NOtice the lack in Egyptian samples but presence in the Horn.
A more comprehesive study on Africa Y that show additional E (xE1b1a)diversity in Bantu Speakers:
Matter of fact...since you are looking at Hirbo, it is the most comprehensive to date.
-M2 as a SNP is older....far Older than M81. -M2 in the Pylogenetic Tree, is earlier, far earlier than M81: Pn2>M215>M35>Z827>V257>M81 Pn2>V38>M2
Bantu speakers "Migrate" about 5000 years ago. Berbers Speakers "Migrate" about 5000 years ago.
Berber as a Language family is not even on the Same level as Bantu. Its not even an apples to apples comparison. In essence you are comparing what is possibility a root language group To Bantu which is way down on the tree: Afroasiatic > Berber. Niger Kordofanain > Atlantic Congo > Benue Congo > Bantoid > Bantu Linguistically which one has a longer history from the root?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Ok let me dumb it down. For those who learn through pictures....Notice E-M35 is NOt found in Topical West Africa!!!
I haven't looked at African sub-groups under a microscope. I am referring to the upstream h-group from the git go.
.
Yep, you dumbed it!
Step up to Trombetta and learn E-M35 and E-M2 are not siblings.
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
Pn2>M215>M35>Z827>V257>M81 Pn2>V38>M2
See? Beyoku tried to show you even one more intermediate between M215 and M81. It's M215 and V100 who are brothers pending a more up to date tree than Trombetta.
Just chill and accept M191 baNtu and M81 Berber are 2nd 3rd cousins not brothers. They great grandaddies wz bros, bro.
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xyyman you make it appears as if the Berbers are older than the Bantu but as you can see they carry many of the same E haplogroups; especially in relation to the Black Berbers who live in Morocco and the Atlas Mountains.
Map Citation: Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
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posted
The tree I am citing has M-35 and M-2 as brothers. Trombetta has them as 1st cousins based upon the newly discovered(2011) mutations, V100 /V38 and M215. The bottom-line is M-35 is much younger than M-2. The Amazigh Hg-E lineage is much older than Bantus. This was my argument from the git go and it still stands. M-2 is much younger than M-35.
M-35 has been in North Africa before M-2 ever existed. This is evidenced by the European specific hg-E line found in Iberia and Italy.
The resolution technology is ever improving but the fact will always remain that M-35 is older than M-2 whether they remain brothers to become 5th cousins in the future phylotree.
Point is the Amazigh line have been African longer than Bantu line.
Quote: .... pending a more up to date tree than Trombetta....Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @Amun-Ra The Ultimate. What about berber culture is Eurasian and middle Easetern?
Is it their language? Their music? Their dance? Their food and customs? Their facial tattoos and clothing? Their pastoralism?
Berbers are their own people, differentiated genetically, historically and culturally from black Africans, but still great people as any people of course.
I'm always interested into tracing the real history of the people, not typologically separating them.
Thus far you haven't done a great job. It actually sounded ridiculous.
I'm doing a great job, your stupid undercover ass just don't like it. Even Swenet and Beyoku had to admit I was right about the common origin of East and West Africans on both MtDNA and Y-DNA sides. Now Beyoku and you are just trying to distract us with some other proxy Eurasian populations in Africa.
Un No retard. Nobody admits anything. First of all the fact that West African maternal lineages come from an East African root is not a new Revelation. L3* is East African...and nearly all the root lineages are East African except from the one that could be Central African (L3e)...and the 2 that could be Eurasian (M,N). You are not gaining any points by stating a KNOWN FACT.
What you fail to recognize is that the common origin of African Mtdna in East Africa....and E1b1* in East Africa is NOT THE driving force in Africa autosomal variation and Sub Saharan genetic Sub-Structure....it hardly has anything to do with it. This is why Southern Sudanese are closer to Eurasians being very high and exclusive in A and B and having only 1/3rd L3.
The dumbass above was stating that E and L3 backmigrated. L0,A,B were "Archaic" and L3/E populations were in essence Eurasian migrants. What this jackass could not explain is how Non L3 Non Hap E fit BOTH Sides of the genetic spectrum in reference to OOA. See Khoi and Dinka. You are saying the same thing.
@xyyman... For us people "in the know"...with all kinds of "early access" to papers... Things that happen in 2011 are not "newly discovered" E-M215 is not newly discovered. Nor is V38/1oo. Everyone is not as slow as you. IN reference to M215 your are over 10 years late.
Moving on M35 is NOT the diagnostic of Berber speakers. You cannot use this genetic lineage to describe Berber speakers. They are dominated by M81. Some of the populations are fixed M81. The age of M35 and how long it was in North Africa has no bearing on Berber speakers. Also M81 is NOT known to have originated in the Maghreb. It is hypothesized to have an origin around Egypt based on the distribution and diversity. Here is something to Ponder. Look at the Autosomal ancestry of Fulani and tell me what you find in reference to their non-African admixture. See Hirbo. Then look at their Y-dna profile and tell me whats missing?
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Yes Dr Winters. That is exactly my point. There are several things you need to consider. First is the placement of the haplogroup-(in this case hg-E) in the PhyloTree, 2nd the age of the mutation and 3rd the upstream clades. As my chart shows. The Nilo-Saharans and Click Speakers carry ALL combination of the upstream clades of hg-E , YAP and underived E, but the Bantus do NOT. Proving the Nilo-Saharans and the Click Speakers are the “parental” group. Next down the tree, the oldest sub-clade(M-35) is found in the Amazigh Tribal groups. Following that the youngest sub-clade is (M-2) found with the tropical West Africans. In fact the tropical West Africans do NOT carry a high frequency of the upstream clades …of hg-E. Therefore they were probably the last group, and recent, that migrated from the Nilo-Saharan region. This is borneout by the linguistics-tree I posted earlier which you disputed. To sum up. Bantus carry “ZERO” E-M35. E-M35 is 10,000 years older than M-2!! (see Table 1.Knight et al).
- Beyoku is blowing smoke by trying to classify B2a, B2b(M112) as Bantu marker. It is NOT, it is a pygmy marker.
Quote by Dr Winters: xyyman you make it appears as if the Berbers are older than the Bantu but as you can see they carry many of the same E haplogroups; especially in relation to the Black Berbers who live in Morocco and the Atlas MountainsPosts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Granted I do not have a “close-up” knowledge of different African ethnic groups. I look at the Continent as a whole. The 10,000ft view. And based upon the published work I posted it is obvious what I say stands. Eg Knight et al. E-M35 absence in Tropical West Africans. M-35 is diagnostic of an EARLIER occupation of North Africa. M-81 is a sub-clade of M-35 with higest frequency in North West Africa. Source cited above. Meanin? The mutation to M-81(from M-35) occurred in North West Africa. Meaning North West Africa was occupied then. This is supported by the fact the European “leg” of hg-E is found in Iberia and Italy. This is the first I have heard that E-M-81 ihas an East African origin. I will check it out.
Quote by Beyoku - @xyyman... with all kinds of "early access" to papers... Moving on M35 is NOT the diagnostic of Berber speakers. You cannot use this genetic lineage to describe Berber speakers.
They are dominated by M81. Some of the populations are fixed M81. The age of M35 and how long it was in North Africa has no bearing on Berber speakers. Also M81 is NOT known to have originated in the Maghreb. It is hypothesized to have an origin around Egypt based on the distribution and diversity. Here is something to Ponder. Look at the Autosomal ancestry of Fulani and tell me what you find in reference to their non-African admixture. See Hirbo. Then look at their Y-dna profile and tell me whats missing?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Xyyman. You are confused. You just found out-something 2 seconds ago and now you are trying to school the forum. First of all understand what "underived" and "Ancestral" mean when you use the terms. You are saying something that you may not want to say. Secondly, if you mean M81* dont say M35. Specifically state M81*. The way you are using "M35" you could be talking about any of the subclades even the recent E-V32.
In reference to "E" a nd Tropical western Africans. -DE* the parental marker of E* is found ONLY in Western Africa....in "Tropical West Africans" - See the Wiki page. I am related to some African Americans that are DE* too.
-E* is found in Tropical West Africans. More frequently than in East Africans. The studies where it is found in East Africa dont have sufficient resolution to rule out other lineages.
Nilo-Saharans nor Khoisan have Underived E*. You either dont know what you are looking at or you are incorrectly using the term "Underived". Neither of these populations carry YAP underived either. I see what you are looking at on the Chart...you simply dont know what that means due to Ignorance of African Y-dna.
-IN ref to B2a. I am not stating it is a Bantu marker. What I am saying is that it is pretty widespread in Africa. It is mostly diagnositc of Nilotic speakers but it has significan frequency in Eastern and Southern Bantu. It also has a significance showing in the Sahel. It is also found in Northern and Southern Egytians. IT has ANCIENT distribution. -E2 as well has ANCIENT distribution and is found on the whole continent...including tropical west Africans. -E1a - Again It is nearly tropical West African exclusive with a strong presence in the Sahel.
E2b, E1a, B2a all predate the M81 SNP. some of these by 10's of thousands of years. The Migration of the Bantu is around the same age as the migration of Berber. The expansion dates of M2 with the bantu will be similar to M81 in North Africa. The dates of the SNP will be different. You dont know how to differentiate the two.....and after all of this your next post will go on to talk about M35.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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But the fact that its absent West Africa has nothing to do with the Recent migration of Berber speakers. The age of M35 in Africa has nothing to do with the recent migration of berber speakers.
You are making the mistake of thinking the M35 lineages in Northern Africa MUST have been a representation of "Berber speakers".....and any habitation of North Africa regardless of how old must be Berber Speakers...Wrong assessment.
Like I said, take a look at the autosomal profile of the Fulani. Think of Henn and when the Berber component is supposed to have originated. See their berber component and how much they have of it. Compare that to the Lactose genes they share with Berbers....now compare those dates with the presence or lack thereof of M81.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Granted I do not have a “close-up” knowledge of different African ethnic groups. I look at the Continent as a whole. The 10,000ft view. And based upon the published work I posted it is obvious what I say stands. Eg Knight et al. E-M35 absence in Tropical West Africans. M-35 is diagnostic of an EARLIER occupation of North Africa.
You are right researchers claim E-M35 is absent among Tropical Africans. But this is not true, they just changed the name of SSA E-M35 to E-M293. The 7 Southern Africans may have been Bantu speakers.
.
Source: A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani, Daniele Sellitto, Rosaria Scozzari Research Article | published 06 Jan 2011 | PLOS ONE 10.1371/journal.pone.0016073
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: [qb] @Amun-Ra The Ultimate. What about berber culture is Eurasian and middle Easetern?
Is it their language? Their music? Their dance? Their food and customs? Their facial tattoos and clothing? Their pastoralism?
Berbers are their own people, differentiated genetically, historically and culturally from black Africans, but still great people as any people of course.
I'm always interested into tracing the real history of the people, not typologically separating them.
Thus far you haven't done a great job. It actually sounded ridiculous.
I'm doing a great job, your stupid undercover ass just don't like it. Even Swenet and Beyoku had to admit I was right about the common origin of East and West Africans on both MtDNA and Y-DNA sides. Now Beyoku and you are just trying to distract us with some other proxy Eurasian populations in Africa.
Un No retard. Nobody admits anything. First of all the fact that West African maternal lineages come from an East African root is not a new Revelation. L3* is East African...and nearly all the root lineages are East African except from the one that could be Central African (L3e)...and the 2 that could be Eurasian (M,N). You are not gaining any points by stating a KNOWN FACT.
Both West and East African maternal lineages and paternal lineages we discussed comes from East Africa at a period after the OOA migrations. Thanks for admitting this as a FACT. You now say it's obvious in a desperate attempts to save face but you and Swenet were disputing me about it, trying to fool people, until I posted the evidences.
quote: What you fail to recognize is that the common origin of African Mtdna in East Africa....and E1b1* in East Africa is NOT THE driving force in Africa autosomal variation and Sub Saharan genetic Sub-Structure....it hardly has anything to do with it. This is why Southern Sudanese are closer to Eurasians being very high and exclusive in A and B and having only 1/3rd L3.
Yeah, time for Beyoku to shift goalposts because he ain't sure scoring any points in this thread (or any other threads for that matter). Now that the common origin of East and West Africans is solidly understood and internalized (see my posts above for complete explanations). OK, let's talk about something else. The Southern Sudanese!
Southern Sudanese are not closer to Eurasian, they are closer to other African populations like East and West African populations (from the E-P2 haplogroup for example). Same for any other African populations for that matter like Ancient Egyptians.
In general, I say African populations (including AEians of course) are closer to each others than they are to Eurasian populations. So for example, Dinka or Ancient Egyptians would cluster closer to let's say Somali or Yoruba populations than any French, Arabians or Germans populations. AKA Southern Sudanese and AEians(according to current aDNA results) are Africans not Europeans or West Asians. They are genetically closer to other Africans populations.
The dumbass above was stating that E and L3 backmigrated. L0,A,B were "Archaic" and L3/E populations were in essence Eurasian migrants. What this jackass could not explain is how Non L3 Non Hap E fit BOTH Sides of the genetic spectrum in reference to OOA. See Khoi and Dinka. You are saying the same thing.
E and L3 didn't backmigrated. Shame on you dumb undercover asshole for even bringing that up.
I guess I can repeat myself:
African haplogroups are Y-DNA A, B and E and MtDNA L haplogroups. Non-African are Y-DNA F and MtDNA M and N (and all their descendants haplogroups).
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Since I'm here, I can add this is all also in line with the common origin of modern African languages families (thus people) in Eastern Africa (at a time period after the OOA migrations). So all the pieces fit.
From Reconstructing Ancient Kinship in Africa by Christopher Ehret (From Early Human Kinship, Chap 12)Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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I know you will get it! Bravo! Took some brow beating but...you got it. BTW the Sahel stretches from East Africa to West Africa. Meaning?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @ Xyy. M35 is mostly Absent in Sub Saharan West Africans...but it has a pretty strong showing the Sahel.
But the fact that its absent West Africa
The age of M35 in Africa has nothing to do with the recent migration of berber speakers.(SPECULATION!!! - Prove it).
You are making the mistake of thinking the M35 lineages in Northern Africa is MUST have been a representation of ".../North African occupation by AMH".....and any habitation of North Africa .
Like I said, take a look at the autosomal profile of the Fulani. Think of Henn and when the Berber component is supposed to have originated. See their berber component and how much they have of it. Compare that to the Lactose genes they share with Berbers....now compare those dates with the presence or lack thereof of M81.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: African haplogroups are Y-DNA A, B and E and MtDNA L haplogroups. Non-African are Y-DNA F and MtDNA M and N (and all their descendants haplogroups).
You are wrong about these haplogroups are of African originL3(M,N). The date for hg M1 clearly posits its origin before the OoA.
Moreover, hg N was taken to Europe by the Khoisan.
It would appear that the Khoisan probably spread L3(M,N) across Africa, and took the haplogroup to Europe.
Much of the hypothesis that hg M originated in Eurasia is based on the diversity of this haplogroup in India. Using this data is unfounded because the Dravidians were members of the C-Group before they migrated to India.
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I know you will get it! Bravo! Took some brow beating but...you got it. BTW the Sahel stretches from East Africa to West Africa. Meaning?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: @ Xyy. M35 is mostly Absent in Sub Saharan West Africans...but it has a pretty strong showing the Sahel.
But the fact that its absent West Africa
The age of M35 in Africa has nothing to do with the recent migration of berber speakers.(SPECULATION!!! - Prove it).
That's easy. Firstly, the Amazigh carry European genes and they speak a language based on the Germanic group. Secondly, the Amazigh claim they only recently migrated to Siwa, and the Tuareg only moved Eastward also.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans ? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
No way. There were no pale skinned Africans until the introduction of the People of the Sea and Vandals.
There is no iconographic evidence of pale skinned people in Africa before the Egyptian records. The people in Northwest Africa were described as Blacks until the coming of the Vandals. Please post evidence of Caucasoids in Africa before People of the Sea.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I know you will get it! Bravo! Took some brow beating but...you got it. BTW the Sahel stretches from East Africa to West Africa. Meaning?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: [qb] @ Xyy. M35 is mostly Absent in Sub Saharan West Africans...but it has a pretty strong showing the Sahel.
But the fact that its absent West Africa
The age of M35 in Africa has nothing to do with the recent migration of berber speakers.(SPECULATION!!! - Prove it).
That's easy. Firstly, the Amazigh carry European genes and they speak a language based on the Germanic group.
which genes are European ? I know you will never answer this
---And if that DNA is Eurasian it is primarily their MtDNA
Clyde, the Y DNA of berbers is primarily African (see charts in post to follow) So xyyman can still argue that their African side is older than Bantu Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Dr Winters. You should know by now I am not into the Caucasoid and Negroid thing….in the traditional sense. My point has been noted. I can say it in so many different ways. M-35 has been present in North Africa maybe since Paleoltihc times. The remnants of these first inhabitants are still there because E-M35 is still present and absent in Tropical Africa(west) as I illustrated. The remnants of these people speak an AfroAsiatic Language. M-81 which has a high frequency there is a direct decendent of M-35. M-35 is older than M-2. Conclusion is simple – Berberl-Like people have been occupying Africa(west) before Bantu like people. Bantus are recent migrants from the Nile-region. Secondly – light skin does NOT indicate admixture with Europeans. Case in point – La Brana was black skinned. As it is now being known light skin was “recently” INTRODUCED(from ourside) to Europe by Neolithics eg Stuttgart woman. Shriver et al also speculated on that based upon his analysis. It is not about black or white or Caucasoids or Negroid. Or West African vs Horners and North Africans. It is about disclosing the truth and exposing the lies perpetuated by the Eurocentric scientist.....and historians
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@ Amun ra. You are still so dumb your dont understand what is going on.
The UNIPARENTAL position of CT-M168 lineages like E1b1....And L3 lineages shared between all Africans have nothing to do with the AUTOSOMAL position and genetic Sub Structure of Sub Saharan Africans. You are missing the forest for the trees. You are like the confused White american on 23andme aksing "I am 100% European, how am I E1b1a or L1b1a?"
Uni-parental position and autosomal position are two different things. Obviously Berbers at 80 to 100% Haplogroup E are "Closer" as far as Y-chromosomes to central African Bantu than Europeans or Arabs. This is a totally different case when we are talking about their AUTOSOMAL profile.
You, in your infinite stupidity are arguing as if uniparental will override and influence the Autosome. That is what the entire argument is about. YOU were saying that Africans have no substructure. YOU were saying that All Aficans derive recently and can be used as genetic proxies for each other. YOU were saying that NO specific group of Africans were closer to Eurasians and they all that the same genetic distance to Eurasians. ALL These ideas are speaking of AUTOSOMAL Genetics and have nothing to do with Y-dna or mtDNA.
In relation to Africans being closer to Africans than Eurasians that actually may NOT be the case. That is the entire idea about substructure and ideas like "Basal Eurasian". It really depends on what SNP's you are looking at because APPARENTLY my wife's SNP profile was close to Europeans than the West/Central/South Africa populations present in the database. And THAT is the issue at hand. The cline of what is considered "African" vs "Eurasian" can be a cline that runs SMOOTHLY into the Levant and Arabia....there is no reason to believe there would be a sharp cutoff. This is the entire idea of Basal Euraisan. A component representing something that originated in Africa but it closer to the Eurasians it went on to represent.
Put your thinking cap on.
@XYYMAN - give up you are hopeless. So now every population in Ancient North Africa was some type of Berber one? Does that include Ancient Egyptians? Put in your thinking cap.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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@XYYMAN - give up you are hopeless. So now every population in Ancient North Africa was some type of Berber one? Does that include Ancient Egyptians? Put in your thinking cap.
posted
Excellent come back – retort (sic) Translation – You are right but I don’t want to admit I am wrong. BTW – AEians are black and African. Just like many Africans North, West And East of the continent. But the fact is they also spoke an Afro_asiatic language which is sourced near the Nile. So , No, they were not Berbers in the modern sense. But like all Africans, the Berbers(and Language) ancestral land is near the Nile, just as the Bantus. Quote by Beyoku : Put your thinking cap on.
@XYYMAN - give up you are hopeless. So now every population in Ancient North Africa was some type of Berber one? Does that include Ancient Egyptians? Put in your thinking cap.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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AEians are closest to Nilo-Saharans and South Africans. Why? Ding ding. Ding Because they are Nilo-Saharans! What are novel concept. (sic). The South African groups are closely related to Nilo-Saharans. Next closest……Bantu/West Africans. Why? Ding Ding Ding. Recent migrants from the Nile region. Amazigh are further back of the line. Why? They are older and left long before the inception of AE carrying the AfroAsiatic Language. It all goes back to the Great Lakes..source of the Nile.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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AEians are closest to Nilo-Saharans and South Africans. Why? Ding ding. Ding Because they are Nilo-Saharans! What are novel concept. (sic). The South African groups are closely related to Nilo-Saharans. Next closest……Bantu/West Africans. Why? Ding Ding Ding. Recent migrants from the Nile region. Amazigh are further back of the line. Why? They are older and left long before the inception of AE carrying the AfroAsiatic Language(proto?). It all goes back to the Great Lakes..source of the Nile. Genetics don’t lie!! Ignore the “labels” put on the markers and their intepretation. YOU interpret the data. YOU know the African culture, history, Geography and language more than these genetic scientist. Berbers are Africans. They are NOT Europeans. Even their women carrying hg-H! But that is another discussion.
The lies are in the “documented” history books and data manipulation.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Proto-Berber shows features which clearly distinguish it from all other branches of Afroasiatic, but modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 10000~9000 BP, according to glottochronological studies,[2] Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3000 BP. Louali & Philippson (2003) propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) stage around 7000 BP and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) stage as the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages.[3] In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels;[4] in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.[5] The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pastoralists.
Militarev, A. (1984), "Sovremennoe sravnitel'no-istoricheskoe afrazijskoe jazykoznanie: chto ono mozhet dat' istoricheskoj nauke?", Lingvisticheskaja rekonstrukcija i drevnejshaja istorija Vostoka 3, Moscow, pp. 3–26, 44–50
Jump up ^ Louali & Philippson 2003, "Les Protoméditerranéens Capsiens sont-ils des protoberbères ? Interrogations de linguiste.", GALF (Groupement des Anthropologues de Langue Française), Marrakech, 22-25 septembre 2003.
Heine, Bernd; Derek Nurse (2000). African languages: an introduction. Cambridge University Press. p. 396. ISBN 0-521-66629-5.
Blench, R. (2006). Archaeology, language, and the African past. Rowman Altamira. p. 361. ISBN 0-7591-0466-2.
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I am a Bantu Diasporan(via trans Atlantic) who speak only English.....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: wiki:
Proto-Berber shows features which clearly distinguish it from all other branches of Afroasiatic, but modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 10000~9000 BP, according to glottochronological studies,[2] Proto-Berber might be as recent as 3000 BP. Louali & Philippson (2003) propose, on the basis of the lexical reconstruction of livestock-herding, a Proto-Berber 1 (PB1) stage around 7000 BP and a Proto-Berber 2 (PB2) stage as the direct ancestor of contemporary Berber languages.[3] In the third millennium BC, proto-Berber speakers spread across the area from the central North Africa to Egypt. In the last millennium BC, another Berber expansion created the Berber peoples noted in Roman records. The final spread occurred in the first millennium BC, when the Tuareg moved into the central Sahara, by then possessing camels;[4] in the past, the northern parts of the Sahara were much more inhabitable than they are now.[5] The fact that there are reconstructions for all major species of domestic ruminant except for the camel in Proto-Berber implies that its speakers produced livestock and were pastoralists.
Militarev, A. (1984), "Sovremennoe sravnitel'no-istoricheskoe afrazijskoe jazykoznanie: chto ono mozhet dat' istoricheskoj nauke?", Lingvisticheskaja rekonstrukcija i drevnejshaja istorija Vostoka 3, Moscow, pp. 3–26, 44–50
Jump up ^ Louali & Philippson 2003, "Les Protoméditerranéens Capsiens sont-ils des protoberbères ? Interrogations de linguiste.", GALF (Groupement des Anthropologues de Langue Française), Marrakech, 22-25 septembre 2003.
Heine, Bernd; Derek Nurse (2000). African languages: an introduction. Cambridge University Press. p. 396. ISBN 0-521-66629-5.
Blench, R. (2006). Archaeology, language, and the African past. Rowman Altamira. p. 361. ISBN 0-7591-0466-2.
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E-M215 is not newly discovered. Nor is V38/1oo. Everyone is not as slow as you. IN reference to M215 your are over 10 years late.
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