posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.

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Clyde what do indigenous North Africans look like?

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They probably looked like these people.


Ghadamès





.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.

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Clyde what do indigenous North Africans look like?


Do they look like this

Seti I

___________________________


Or do they look like this:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


___________________^^^^

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Fragment of glazed tile showing a Libyan captive
From the palace of Ramesses III, Tell el-Yahudia, Egypt
20th Dynasty, around 1200 BC
British Museum

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To put things in perspective.


Leontopolis (Tell el-Yahudia)







On what is it based that this fragment is a ancient Libyan captive?

quote:

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Fragment of glazed tile showing a Libyan captive

From the palace of Ramesses III, Tell el-Yahudia, Egypt
20th Dynasty, around 1200 BC

One of the traditional enemies of Egypt

This image on this fragment represents a Libyan, a traditional enemy of Egypt. He is shown in the conventional Egyptian manner: a short beard, a long sidelock of hair, and simple clothing; the marks on his body may be tattoos.

Tiles showing the traditional enemies of Egypt (known as the 'nine bows') may have been part of the decoration of a throne room in a palace, placed either on the base of the throne or on the floor in front of the throne. The king would then literally and metaphorically trample on his enemies.

Tell el-Yahudia is a town-site on the Nile delta, about twenty kilometres north-east of Cairo. At some time in the past there was a Jewish temple and fortress, as well as a cemetery, at Tell el-Yahudia and its modern arabic name reflects this. The nineteenth-century excavators, Henri Naville and Flinders Petrie, were particularly interested in the site because they hoped for finds with a biblical connection. This fragment came from a clandestine excavation carried out some time before 1870, but other similar fragments found by Petrie suggest that they came from a building of Ramesses III. Ramesses made major modifications to the settlement, essentially building a new town.

F.D. Friedman (ed.), Gifts of the Nile: ancient Egy (London, Thames and Hudson, 1998)

G. Robins, The art of ancient Egypt (London, The British Museum Press, 1997)

W.M.F. Petrie, Hyksos and Israelite cities (London, School of Archaeology, University College; Quaritch, 1906)

E. Naville, The Mound of the Jew and the c (London, Egypt Exploration Fund, 1890)

S. Quirke and A.J. Spencer, The British Museum book of anc (London, The British Museum Press, 1992)

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How ancient Libyans represented themselves.


Lybians of the Egyptian/Lybian Oasis..

Dakhla:

The master of the house ..





Above the front door, travel by boat.
Pilgrimage to Abydos



26th Lybian Dynasty Tomb..

The founder of the dynasty was Psammetichus I, originally a member of the Libyan royal house in Saïs (which is why the period is also called the Saite Period). Psammetichus originally ruled in Egypt with the help of Assyria and ruled over Lower Egypt with other local princes (Herodotus speaks of twelve kings). With the help of Greek and Carian mercenaries he eventually succeeded in ruling alone.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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LEONTOPOLIS, locality in the district of Heliopolis in Egypt, N.E. of *Memphis, 6 mi. (10 km.) N. of Cairo. A settlement of Jewish soldiers was established in Leontopolis under the leadership of the former high priest, *Onias, IV sometime after the outbreak of the Maccabean revolt, in the middle of the second century B.C.E., with the approval of Ptolemy Philometer and his wife Cleopatra (Jos., Ant., 13:62ff.). Its nucleus was made up of emigrants from Judea. The Jewish soldiers of the region subsequently played a role in the political life of Egypt and the area was also called "the land of Onias." Onias erected here a temple to the God of Israel by restoring a ruined Egyptian temple which stood on the site. This temple served the Jewish inhabitants of the region for more than 200 years until it was closed down by the Romans in 73 C.E. (Wars, 7:433–646). The present name of the locality, Tell al-Yahūdiyya, is a survival from this ancient Jewish settlement. In archaeological excavations, Jewish inscriptions were found there. Some wish to associate the "Camp of the Jews" mentioned by Josephus (Ant., 14:133), and also the Castra Judaeorum mentioned in the Byzantine era, with this region.

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

Tcherikover, Corpus, 1 (1957), 44–46; idem, Hellenistic Civilization and the Jews (1959), 278–9; Delcor, in: RB, 75 (1968), 188–205; Rapaport, in: Revue de Philologie, 43 (1969), 80–81.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.

.
The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.

Reference:
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 [/QB]

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Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

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Clyde you say

"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.

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There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor

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http://www.pnas.org/content/111/3/954.full

Earliest evidence for caries and exploitation of starchy plant foods in Pleistocene hunter-gatherers from Morocco

Louise T. Humphreya,1, Isabelle De Grootea,b, Jacob Moralesc,d, Nick Bartone, Simon Collcuttf, Christopher Bronk Ramseyg, and Abdeljalil Bouzouggarh,i
Author Affiliations

Charred aerial root (rhizome) fragments of esparto (alfa) grass (Stipa tenacissima L.) are common throughout the Grey Series samples. Leaves from esparto grass are a traditional material for basketry and rhizome fragments are a common by-product of this process. Charred rhizome fragments have been recorded at other prehistoric sites from the Iberian Peninsula and Morocco (25)

http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/element/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-03fe0532-7e5f-3900-b7a0-32cf87b4d843

[25] Morales J, et al. (2013) The origins of agriculture in North-West Africa: Macro-botanical remains from Epipalaeolithic and Early Neolithic levels of Ifri Oudadane (Morocco)

This research aims to shed light on the early stages of agricultural development in Northern Africa through the analysis of the rich macro-botanical assemblages obtained from Ifri Oudadane, an Epipalaeolithic–Early Neolithic site from North-East Morocco. Results indicate the presence of domesticated plants, cereals (Hordeum vulgare, Triticum monococcum/dicoccum, Triticum durum and Triticum aestivum/durum) and pulses (Lens culinaris and Pisum sativum) in the Early Neolithic. One lentil has been dated to 7611 ± 37 cal BP representing the oldest direct date of a domesticated plant seed in Morocco and, by extension, in North Africa. Similarities in both radiocarbon dates and crop assemblages from Early Neolithic sites in Northern Morocco and the Iberian Peninsula suggest a simultaneous East to West maritime spread of agriculture along the shores of the Western Mediterranean. Wild plants were abundantly collected in both the Epipalaeolithic and the Early Neolithic periods pointing to the important role of these resources during the two periods. In addition to fruits and seeds that could have been consumed by both humans and domesticated animals, fragments of esparto grass (Stipa tenacissima) rhizomes have been identified. This is a western Mediterranean native plant that may have been used as a source of fibres for basketry.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.

.
The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.

Reference:
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543

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Pierron did not mention a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
He is saying that H spread all over Europe (22-16 Kya) from the Middle East ( origin 29 kya)

-from Iberia it layer spread to North Africa and due to isolation it reaches it highest frequencies in the world in Libyan Turaegs ( who have low diversity of H)
-as well as Taforalt Morocco

The Y DNA of Tuaregs is primarily E

However maternally:

. Epub 2009 May 20.

First genetic insight into Libyan Tuaregs: a maternal perspective.

Ottoni C1, Martínez-Labarga C, Loogväli EL, Pennarun E, Achilli A, De Angelis F, Trucchi E, Contini I, Biondi G, Rickards O.

Abstract
The Tuaregs are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of northwest Africa. Their origins are still a matter of debate due to the scarcity of genetic and historical data. Here we report the first data on the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genetic characterization of a Tuareg sample from Fezzan (Libyan Sahara). A total of 129 individuals from two villages in the Acacus region were genetically analysed. Both the hypervariable regions and the coding region of mtDNA were investigated. Phylogeographic investigation was carried out in order to reconstruct human migratory shifts in central Sahara, and to shed light on the origin of the Libyan Tuaregs. Our results clearly show low genetic diversity in the sample, possibly due to genetic drift and founder effect associated with the separation of Libyan Tuaregs from an ancestral population. Furthermore, the maternal genetic pool of the Libyan Tuaregs is characterized by a major "European" component shared with the Berbers that could be traced to the Iberian Peninsula, as well as a minor 'south Saharan' contribution possibly linked to both Eastern African and Near Eastern populations.

...Of note is that the other Tuareg sample described in the literature (Watson et al., 1996) (Western Tuaregs) did not show a close genetic relationship with the Libyan Tuaregs, implying a genetic heterogeneity of the Tuaregs. This difference appears to be primarily caused by the low frequency (8%) of the European component in the Western Tuaregs, characteristic of northern African populations. After the removal of the H and V haplotypes, the Libyan Tuaregs showed a strong affiliation with the Eastern populations, while theWestern Tuaregs associated more with the Central and Western African populations (Fig. 2)

________________________________

^^^ The Western Tuaregs here the Sahelain Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are not homogeneous [/QB]

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Above you'll see the profile of a Taforalt.


Now, below is some data for you to skew on. You have some explaining to do.


http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/1077329/7908829/mmc2.xls


http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v56/n9/extref/jhg201171x2.xls


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182259/table/TB1/

quote:

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Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.

[...]

Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).

[...]

The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.

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quote:

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Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.

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quote:

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This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.

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quote:

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Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm

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posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why repost what I already put up?
What a waste of time and bandwidth.

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Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why repost what I already put up?
What a waste of time and bandwidth.

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---

quote:

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Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.

[...]

Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).

[...]

The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.

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quote:

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PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.

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--Wolfgang Haak
Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities



Above you'll see the profile of a Taforalt.

quote:

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The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)

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quote:

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we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.

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quote:

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Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).


[...]


Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:



The Western Tuaregs here the Sahelain Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are not homogeneous

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


The Siwa of Egypt are notably different in their genetics from other berbers. They have E lineages that are not M81 like many other berbers
And maternally they have higher M frequenices and instead of U6 as some other berbers have they carry U5

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quote:

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Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).

---

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posted                      

Will being in my quest...I found this one.

quote:

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Archaeological excavations were carried out in 1990 in prehistorically inhabited caves sites in the Taza locality along the eastern Algerian coast. Recovered materials included stone and bone artifacts, faunal remains and a single human skull (Taza 1). A radiocarbon date for the upper cave level from which the skull was found was 16,100 B.P. While the skull, which is likely female, is very small overall, its shape compared closely with other North African cranial series. The obtained date and archaeological materials are characteristic of the Iberomaurusian industry of the Late Paleolithic period of North Africa.

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posted                      

Taloralt grottes des piguon is located near OUJDA

quote:

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This is from Ramadan in 1997. As the fast breaking festival is getting closer and closer more cookies are baked. These guys, working in a small bakery down from Bab el-Wahab, probably looked forward to the day when life returned to normal, forced as they were to work day and night to keep customers happy.

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http://looklex.com/morocco/oujda05.htm

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posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

---

Clyde you say

"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.

---

There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor

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---

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.


.


It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.

.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

---

Clyde you say

"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.

---

There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor

---

---

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.


.


It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.

---

quote:

---

Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective

U Roostalu1,*, I Kutuev*†, E-L Loogväli*, E Metspalu*, K Tambets*, M Reidla*, EK Khusnutdinova†, E Usanga‡, T Kivisild* and R Villems*
+ Author Affiliations

The peopling of Europe by AMH probably started more than 40,000 YBP (Mellars 2006), with the first evidence in the Lower Danube Basin (Churchill and Smith 2000; Conard and Bolus 2003), suggesting the Near East–Anatolia as a likely route for these pioneer hunter–gatherers to Europe.

It has a coalescence age of about 31,000 YBP according to HVS-1 (table 1) and about 25,000 or 19,000 YBP when calculated using coding region mutations.

The reason for this could lie in its area of spread, centered in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East (fig. 3), having presumably milder and less arid climate during the LGM, favorable for human occupation (Adams and Faure 1997; Ramrath et al. 1999; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000; Aksu et al. 2002).

These estimates overlap with the coalescence dates calculated here for the oldest subclades of hg H. We assume, therefore, that the first expansion wave of hg H may have taken place during this favorable time frame, probably in the northern part of the Near East and the southern Caucasus, where the oldest clades of hg H appear to be more diverse until now. It has been shown that the Upper Paleolithic archaeological culture was present in the South Caucasus more than 30,000 YBP, well before the LGM (Adler et al. 2006), giving support for our estimates of past population expansions in this region.

How far the pre-LGM expansion of hg H from the Near East may have reached before the onset of the LGM is indicated by the distributions of some hg H subclades (H1, H3) (Achilli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), as well as its sister clade hg V (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001). In Europe, these clades display frequency clines radiating from the Iberian Peninsula. This pattern has been associated with the spread of the carriers of the Magdalenian culture after the LGM, suggesting that hg H had reached Europe (Pereira et al. 2005) and, perhaps, western Siberia/Inner Asia (Loogväli et al. 2004), before the LGM.

It is most likely that the initial population expansion in the southern Caucasus and the Near East involved other maternal lineages besides hg H as well. In this context, it is worth pointing out that hg U3 has been shown to be most divergent in this region, having begun to expand about 30,000 YBP (Metspalu et al. 1999). Similarly, hg HV1, with an analogous coalescence estimate, is most common and diverse in the southern Caucasus, present in the eastern Mediterranean. On the other hand, neither of the 2 became ever as frequent in Europe as hg H did (Tambets et al. 2000), suggesting that profoundly different later migration scenarios apply to them.

It should be stressed that for the majority of hg H subclades, the signal of expansion in the Near East and the Caucasus lies in a time frame between 18,000 and 10,000 YBP (table 1). It may suggest that such subclades not only expanded but also in fact arose much later than the earliest limbs of hg H. The European hg H gene pool differs significantly from that in the southern Caucasus and the Near East (fig. 4A) because different sub-hgs have expanded after the LGM in different large subcontinental areas. Most importantly, it appears that after the initial migration of the carriers of hg H into Europe, presumably already before or during the Gravettian period, there was little subsequent admixture of the West Asian and European hg H lineages.

As for Europe, a number of frequency/diversity clines in the Near East and the Caucasus could be associated with the postglacial population expansion phase. This can be partially ascribed, as in Europe, to the (re)colonization of areas that were unsuitable for human occupation during the LGM due to aridity and lower temperatures. Sub-hgs H5*, H20, and H21 are the most frequent and diverse in the western Caucasus hg H gene pool. The region, stretching over the southeastern coast of the Black Sea, was a refugium area for forest (Adams and Faure 1997; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000) and could have thus provided better conditions for fauna, as well as perhaps for human beings during the LGM. The phylogeography of H20 and H21 appears to be strictly limited within the immediate neighboring populations, suggesting their autochthonous origin in the Caucasus, whereas H5* has also been found throughout western Eurasia, albeit at a lower frequency (Loogväli et al. 2004). The expansion of humans to the Arabian Peninsula likely took place later, due to persisting aridity, which is still characteristic of the region today. As a consequence, the overall genetic diversity of hg H lineages in this region is very low (fig. 1), and the corresponding frequency pattern of hg H subclades differs from that observed elsewhere in the Near East (fig. 3).

Furthermore, our analysis provides evidence for possible back migration to the Caucasus and the Near East from the European populations. This possibility, as far as the Near East is concerned, has been discussed in some details by Richards et al. (2000), where a need for rigorous comparative phylogeographic lineage analysis (founder analysis) has been stressed. Complete mtDNA sequence based phylogeographic analysis—an approach that became available only recently—offers a new and more powerful means for such analysis (Torroni et al. 2006). Our results show that hg H-related gene flow from the East European Plain to the Caucasus populations is particularly evident in the mtDNA pool of the Turkic-speaking Karatchaians–Balkarians, where typically European sub-hgs of hg H, such as H1a, H1b, and H3, are present at a high frequency (figs. 1 and 2 and Supplementary Material online). This apparent overlap may have ancient roots, such as shared ancestry of Karatchaians–Balkarians and northern Ponto-Caspian nomadic people.

Taken together with recent series of predominantly “eurocentric” high-resolution phylogeographic analysis of hg H (Achilli et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), presented here data suggest that hg H had already expanded before the LGM, with its oldest lineages being frequent in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East. A new phase of expansion followed the climate amelioration after the LGM. Later on, there appears to be only limited mtDNA flow from the Near East/the southern Caucasus toward Europe, as far as the dominant maternal lineage cluster—hg H—is concerned. As a result, different frequency spectra of hg H subclades characterize an otherwise largely joint Near Eastern heritage of maternal lineages for both West Asia and Europe.

Previous Section
Next Section

---

Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

quote:

---

The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

---

Clyde you say

"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.

---

There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor

---

---

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.


.


It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.

---

^Clyde you have a chart here with the pie diagrams.
I don't see that chart in the Pierron article
It shows in red color Malians having 50% mtDNA haplogroup H
This leads one to believe that that chart is taken out of context to put it mildly
Similalry there is nothing showing for Spain where there are high frequencies of H
So what is the source of this chart?

---

---

Sorry. The chart is from:


Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616




.

Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

---

Clyde you say

"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.

---

There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor

---

---

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.


.


It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.

---

^Clyde you have a chart here with the pie diagrams.
I don't see that chart in the Pierron article
It shows in red color Malians having 50% mtDNA haplogroup H
This leads one to believe that that chart is taken out of context to put it mildly
Similalry there is nothing showing for Spain where there are high frequencies of H
So what is the source of this chart?


You argue that Levantine Haplogroups would likely back Migrate into Africa>

"Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia."

However researchers believe it originated in Anatolia where it has high diversity not the Levant

From this points is spreads into Europe and then North Africa
and reaches some very high frequency in certain isolated Tunisian berber populaltions

quote:

---

Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective

U Roostalu1,*, I Kutuev*†, E-L Loogväli*, E Metspalu*, K Tambets*, M Reidla*, EK Khusnutdinova†, E Usanga‡, T Kivisild* and R Villems*
+ Author Affiliations

The peopling of Europe by AMH probably started more than 40,000 YBP (Mellars 2006), with the first evidence in the Lower Danube Basin (Churchill and Smith 2000; Conard and Bolus 2003), suggesting the Near East–Anatolia as a likely route for these pioneer hunter–gatherers to Europe.

It has a coalescence age of about 31,000 YBP according to HVS-1 (table 1) and about 25,000 or 19,000 YBP when calculated using coding region mutations.

The reason for this could lie in its area of spread, centered in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East (fig. 3), having presumably milder and less arid climate during the LGM, favorable for human occupation (Adams and Faure 1997; Ramrath et al. 1999; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000; Aksu et al. 2002).

These estimates overlap with the coalescence dates calculated here for the oldest subclades of hg H. We assume, therefore, that the first expansion wave of hg H may have taken place during this favorable time frame, probably in the northern part of the Near East and the southern Caucasus, where the oldest clades of hg H appear to be more diverse until now. It has been shown that the Upper Paleolithic archaeological culture was present in the South Caucasus more than 30,000 YBP, well before the LGM (Adler et al. 2006), giving support for our estimates of past population expansions in this region.

How far the pre-LGM expansion of hg H from the Near East may have reached before the onset of the LGM is indicated by the distributions of some hg H subclades (H1, H3) (Achilli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), as well as its sister clade hg V (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001). In Europe, these clades display frequency clines radiating from the Iberian Peninsula. This pattern has been associated with the spread of the carriers of the Magdalenian culture after the LGM, suggesting that hg H had reached Europe (Pereira et al. 2005) and, perhaps, western Siberia/Inner Asia (Loogväli et al. 2004), before the LGM.

It is most likely that the initial population expansion in the southern Caucasus and the Near East involved other maternal lineages besides hg H as well. In this context, it is worth pointing out that hg U3 has been shown to be most divergent in this region, having begun to expand about 30,000 YBP (Metspalu et al. 1999). Similarly, hg HV1, with an analogous coalescence estimate, is most common and diverse in the southern Caucasus, present in the eastern Mediterranean. On the other hand, neither of the 2 became ever as frequent in Europe as hg H did (Tambets et al. 2000), suggesting that profoundly different later migration scenarios apply to them.

It should be stressed that for the majority of hg H subclades, the signal of expansion in the Near East and the Caucasus lies in a time frame between 18,000 and 10,000 YBP (table 1). It may suggest that such subclades not only expanded but also in fact arose much later than the earliest limbs of hg H. The European hg H gene pool differs significantly from that in the southern Caucasus and the Near East (fig. 4A) because different sub-hgs have expanded after the LGM in different large subcontinental areas. Most importantly, it appears that after the initial migration of the carriers of hg H into Europe, presumably already before or during the Gravettian period, there was little subsequent admixture of the West Asian and European hg H lineages.

As for Europe, a number of frequency/diversity clines in the Near East and the Caucasus could be associated with the postglacial population expansion phase. This can be partially ascribed, as in Europe, to the (re)colonization of areas that were unsuitable for human occupation during the LGM due to aridity and lower temperatures. Sub-hgs H5*, H20, and H21 are the most frequent and diverse in the western Caucasus hg H gene pool. The region, stretching over the southeastern coast of the Black Sea, was a refugium area for forest (Adams and Faure 1997; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000) and could have thus provided better conditions for fauna, as well as perhaps for human beings during the LGM. The phylogeography of H20 and H21 appears to be strictly limited within the immediate neighboring populations, suggesting their autochthonous origin in the Caucasus, whereas H5* has also been found throughout western Eurasia, albeit at a lower frequency (Loogväli et al. 2004). The expansion of humans to the Arabian Peninsula likely took place later, due to persisting aridity, which is still characteristic of the region today. As a consequence, the overall genetic diversity of hg H lineages in this region is very low (fig. 1), and the corresponding frequency pattern of hg H subclades differs from that observed elsewhere in the Near East (fig. 3).

Furthermore, our analysis provides evidence for possible back migration to the Caucasus and the Near East from the European populations. This possibility, as far as the Near East is concerned, has been discussed in some details by Richards et al. (2000), where a need for rigorous comparative phylogeographic lineage analysis (founder analysis) has been stressed. Complete mtDNA sequence based phylogeographic analysis—an approach that became available only recently—offers a new and more powerful means for such analysis (Torroni et al. 2006). Our results show that hg H-related gene flow from the East European Plain to the Caucasus populations is particularly evident in the mtDNA pool of the Turkic-speaking Karatchaians–Balkarians, where typically European sub-hgs of hg H, such as H1a, H1b, and H3, are present at a high frequency (figs. 1 and 2 and Supplementary Material online). This apparent overlap may have ancient roots, such as shared ancestry of Karatchaians–Balkarians and northern Ponto-Caspian nomadic people.

Taken together with recent series of predominantly “eurocentric” high-resolution phylogeographic analysis of hg H (Achilli et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), presented here data suggest that hg H had already expanded before the LGM, with its oldest lineages being frequent in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East. A new phase of expansion followed the climate amelioration after the LGM. Later on, there appears to be only limited mtDNA flow from the Near East/the southern Caucasus toward Europe, as far as the dominant maternal lineage cluster—hg H—is concerned. As a result, different frequency spectra of hg H subclades characterize an otherwise largely joint Near Eastern heritage of maternal lineages for both West Asia and Europe.

Previous Section
Next Section

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---

Your reaction is rejection...like the simple mind you are. In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.


However, you still have some explaining to do.


http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/1077329/7908829/mmc2.xls


http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v56/n9/extref/jhg201171x2.xls


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182259/table/TB1/

quote:

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Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.


[...]

The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The above "might be " portion of the Frigi quote is speculation. It does not accord with other researchers and ignores highest diversity regions of H and coalescence estimates

---

quote:

---

With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.


Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example.

The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ H is not even mentioned there

---

Good Lord, this is not normal.


I am taking about alleles and SNP's, which I have emphasized in my citations. I am not talking about a haplogroup name like H. That's just a name. They could have called it ancient blue balloons as well, no difference, just a name. I'm referring to the content of Hg H.


However, I asked you how it's possible that these ancestral alleles were already percent in these older stems.


Many of us have noticed this and explained this. So you either don't know what you're talking about, or you just bolster this lie.


The Explorer did awesome research into this.


I have emphasized the specific markers. Since you have difficulty with the this. So, all you have to do is look and compare.

quote:

---

With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.


Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example.

The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).

---

quote:

---

Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.

---

--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] The above "might be " portion of the Frigi quote is speculation. It does not accord with other researchers and ignores highest diversity regions of H and coalescence estimates

---

I have asked you to explain why ancestral alleles were already in Africans with older stems. These stems can be found in general publications. This included the SPN's in Hg H as well.

As I have posted these sources, including the links. Many times. And I am not taking about frequencies, for the billionth time. But the polymorphisms.

---

Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] The above "might be " portion of the Frigi quote is speculation. It does not accord with other researchers and ignores highest diversity regions of H and coalescence estimates

---

I have asked you to explain why ancestral alleles were already in Africans with older stems. These stems can be found in general publications. This included the SPN's in Hg H as well.

As I have posted these sources, including the links. Many times. And I am not taking about frequencies, for the billionth time. But the polymorphisms.

---

So if somebody like Frigi is talking about haplogroup H and I had a long quote about Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H,
( Roostalu et al)

Why do you always switch topic to alleles, mutations, Hg L and U?

And why are you not dealing with the Alleles that are listed on that Taforalt chart ?

---

Stop derailing the subject. Even after I have
emphasized the specific markers similar to the Taforalt chart. Which I have posted prior to this.


So, when are you going to explain why these alleles and polymorphisms were already in older clades, of African populations?

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


^^^ and you have referenced all these particular alleles?

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quote:

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9. Genetics, Biochem. the linear order of monomers in a polymer, as nucleotides in DNA or amino acids in a protein.
v.t.
10. to place in a sequence.
11. Genetics, Biochem. to determine the order of (chemical units in a polymer chain), esp. nucleotides in DNA or RNA or amino acids in a protein.
1350–1400; Middle English ...Late Latin sequentia= Latin sequ- (s. of sequī to follow) + -entia -ence

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quote:

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al·lele (-ll)
n.
One member of a pair or series of genes that occupy a specific position on a specific chromosome.
German Allel, short for Allelomorph, allelomorph, from English allelomorph.
al·lelic (-llk, -llk) adj.
al·lelism n.

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quote:

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pol•y•mor•phism (ˌpɒl iˈmɔr fɪz əm)

n.
1. the state or condition of being polymorphous.

2.
a. genetic variation that produces differing characteristics in individuals of the same population or species.

b. the occurrence of different castes or types within the same sex, as in social ants.

3. crystallization into two or more chemically identical but crystallographically distinct forms.

[1830–40]

pol`y•mor′phic, adj.

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quote:

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With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.


Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example.

The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).

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Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.

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--Frigi et al.
Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.

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Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.

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I claimed WHAT was genetic drift?
please can we have a complete thought ?

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Instead of derailing the subject, why don't you simply respond to my question?


How come these alleles/ polymorphism were already present in older African clades?


And yes, earlier on you've posted about the intrusion (drift) from Europe into Africa. Remember the Iberia? When I posted archeological evidence of African presence there long before modern day Spaniards did?

You are good at derailing and lying. You indeed lie so much, that you even forget about your own lies.


I have to go to the Gym now, I'll be reading your explanation later on.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.

---

I claimed WHAT was genetic drift?
please can we have a complete thought ?

---

Instead of derailing the subject, why don't you simply respond to my question?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

these alleles/ polymorphism were already present in older African clades

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

And yes, earlier on you've posted about the intrusion (drift) from Europe into Africa. Remember the Iberia? When I posted archeological evidence of African presence there long before modern day Spaniards did?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

You are good at derailing and lying. You indeed lie so much, that you even forget about your own lies.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer, Africa Timeline

From the rather ambiguous assignments that they provide the reader throughout their report, it is estimated that at least one specimen could very well be a carrier of a hg L marker. The remains of this one individual with plausible "sub-Saharan" African ancestry,

This individual—designated as Taf VIII....


It is not inconceivable that Mesolithic Maghrebi groups [who do not appear to be ancestors of recent Maghreb Tamazight or "Berber" speaking groups based on cranial findings and genetic material] may have interacted and exchanged genes with geographically proximate groups that "back-migrated" into the African continent,

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

I have to go to the Gym now, I'll be reading your explanation later on.

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Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

because your question is derailing the subject and I don't play test

the subject is migration from one part of the world to another

If any such migration is described you say that there is no genetic evidence for it because

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My question is permeant to the subject. I of focusing on the core essentials of genetic Hg's.

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
But no, some polymorphisms were clearly not already present in older African clades


and if you were to start looking up all the alleles listed you would see that but you are lost because Explorer didn't remark on many of the alleles and you don't know what to do,


he was talking about specifc specimins within a group of 23 individuals

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
this demonstrates that you you don't now what the term "drift" means in genetics, that's basic, further evidence tht you don't know what you are talking about, do a remedial on genetic drift

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Look at you the lying dumbo of EgyptSearch.


Genetic drift—along with natural selection, mutation, and migration—is one of the basic mechanisms of evolution.

In each generation, some individuals may, just by chance, leave behind a few more descendents (and genes, of course!) than other individuals.

The genes of the next generation will be the genes of the “lucky” individuals, not necessarily the healthier or “better” individuals.

That, in a nutshell, is genetic drift. It happens to ALL populations—there’s no avoiding the vagaries of chance.





Genetic drift affects the genetic makeup of the population but, unlike natural selection, through an entirely random process. So although genetic drift is a mechanism of evolution, it doesn’t work to produce adaptations.


http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIIDGeneticdrift.shtml

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
you are good at pretending to what you are talking about
Alleles are gene mutations relating to HAPLOGROUPS

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
You keep quoting Explorer when he's talking about specific sepecmins at Taforalt, the ones marked U6 and L ?
No the alleles are not a sequence

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Explorer's complete remarks

http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2013/04/Investigation-into-the-Mysterious-Epipaleolithic-Maghrebi-Update.html

Explorer's conclusion

There is rarely, if any, publication that treats 16126C as a primary identifying polymorphism for U6, yet Kefi et al. has treated this mutation just as that.

The earlier noting of 16172C location within Hgs M1, U6, and L1a still have merit, although it’s worth noting that L1a has been re-assign in the network or treated as L0a in some publications. L1, L3e1, L3, and L4b2a2 (L4b2a2b) have all tested positive for 16172C polymorphism.

[quote]


Again, I have posted the polymorphisms, as well on alleles.


Oh, you forgot to post this part, how peculiar.

To build on the last few observations, L3e2b clades (including L3e2b1a1, L3e2b3 sub-clades [4]) have tested positive for both 16126C and 16172C [4].


[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
Wake up, he's is talking about one specimen out of 23
> Taf V19E and also talking about Taf 8

That is why when I ask you to look at the other alleles of all the other specimins you don't know what to do because Explorer didn't talk about most of the samples he is critiqing one of the assignments of one sample

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Originally posted by The Explorer, Africa Timeline

From the rather ambiguous assignments that they provide the reader throughout their report, it is estimated that at least one specimen could very well be a carrier of a hg L marker. The remains of this one individual with plausible "sub-Saharan" African ancestry,

This individual—designated as Taf VIII....


It is not inconceivable that Mesolithic Maghrebi groups [who do not appear to be ancestors of recent Maghreb Tamazight or "Berber" speaking groups based on cranial findings and genetic material] may have interacted and exchanged genes with geographically proximate groups that "back-migrated" into the African continent,


http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/05/Investigation-into-the-Mysterious-Epipaleolithic-Maghrebi.html#more

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
In other words none of his remarks speak to the origin of haplogroup H

--but you keep acting like the origin of H is determined by alleles already present in Africa and he didn't say that, and you keep repeating this misinterpretation over and over and asking me to verify your wrong interpretation

Explorer's piece is a critique on Kefi's methods NOT an alternative view on the origin of Haplogroup H !!!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
In other words none of his remarks speak to the origin of haplogroup H

--but you keep acting like the origin of H is determined by alleles already present in Africa and he didn't say that, and you keep repeating this misinterpretation over and over and asking me to verify your wrong interpretation

Explorer's piece is a critique on Kefi's methods NOT an alternative view on the origin of Haplogroup H !!!

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
dup

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quote:

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Sequence

The noun: the order in which subunits appear in a chain, such as amino acids in a polypeptide or nucleotide bases in a dNA or rNA molecule.

The verb: To find out in what order the subunits appear in the chain.

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quote:

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Genetic polymorphism

Dictionary » G » Genetic polymorphism
Definition

noun

(1) The existence together of many forms of DNA sequences at a locus within the population.

(2) A discontinuous genetic variation that results in different forms or types of individuals among the members of a single species.


Supplement

Genetic polymorphism promotes diversity within a population. It often persists over many generations because no single form has an overall advantage or disadvantage over the others regarding natural selection. A common example is the different allelic forms that give rise to different blood types in humans.

---

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genetic_polymorphism




As can seen above, and as Tukuler has mentioned many times. The polymorphisms sequenced by Tafi are synonyms with L types. Odd, umh?


16239T

16204C 16226T

16189C 16261T

16126C 16355T

16126C 16304C

16126C

16126C 16172C 16174T

16172C 16174T

16298T/C

16179T 16298T/C

16223T

quote:

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Allele

Dictionary » A » Allele
Definition

noun, plural: alleles

(genetics)

One member of a pair (or any of the series) of genes occupying a specific spot on a chromosome (called locus) that controls the same trait.


Supplement

For example, a pair of alleles controlling the same trait, i.e. eye color: one allele codes for blue eyes, another allele for brown eyes.

In humans, simple traits such as eye color may be caused by the interaction of only one pair of alleles. But for complex traits, such as height, they are usually caused by the interactions of series of alleles. Some alleles are dominant over other alleles, as in the case of heterozygous pairings (where paired alleles are different, in contrast to homozygous pairings where alleles are the same). In the above example, since the alleles code for different eye colors they are heterozygous.

Colloquially, the term gene is used when referring to an inherited trait that is usually accompanied by a phenotype as in ‘tall genes’ or ‘bad genes’ – but the more proper (scientific) term for this is allele.


Word origin: From German Allel, shortened from Allelomorph, from English allelomorph.
Related forms: allelic (adjective), biallelic (adjective), diallelic (adjective), monoallelic (adjective), allelism (noun), nonallelic (adjective).
Synonym: allelomorph.

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quote:

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Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

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quote:

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Frequencies display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European pop- ulations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).

[...]

Phased haplotypes were retrieved from HapMap, Release 21. For phylogenetic analysis, graphs were drawn by the use of a sim- ple nearest-neighbor approach and rooted by the use of ancestral alleles determined by comparison with other primate sequences.

[...]

"Of the remaining 10 common core haplotype groups, all ancestral at rs1426654, eight clearly have their origins in Africa (Figure 3B, Figure 4, and Table S4). Three early diverging haplotypes, C1, C2, and C4, are rare outside of Africa and clearly originated there."

"In the lineage containing the majority of haplotypes, each of the three branches, containing C5, C6-C7, and C8-C11, give strong evidence of having originated in Africa. C5 reaches its greatest abundance in West Africa and is rare outside of Africa. Within the other two branches, C6 and C9, which are the most common haplotypes in Africa, are also common worldwide, whereas C7 is abundant in East Asia and much less common but widespread in Africa. "

[...]

Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin. The most likely location for the origin of C11 is, therefore, within the region in which it is fixed or nearly so. As both models for the origin of C11 imply that C3 and C10 were present in ancestors of Europeans, the observed and inferred distributions of these autosomal haplotypes are consistent with the single-out-of- Africa hypothesis derived using uniparental markers (Oppenheimer 2003; Macaulay et al. 2005).

---

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
dup

---

quote:

---

Sequence

The noun: the order in which subunits appear in a chain, such as amino acids in a polypeptide or nucleotide bases in a dNA or rNA molecule.

The verb: To find out in what order the subunits appear in the chain.

---

quote:

---

Genetic polymorphism

Dictionary » G » Genetic polymorphism
Definition

noun

(1) The existence together of many forms of DNA sequences at a locus within the population.

(2) A discontinuous genetic variation that results in different forms or types of individuals among the members of a single species.


Supplement

Genetic polymorphism promotes diversity within a population. It often persists over many generations because no single form has an overall advantage or disadvantage over the others regarding natural selection. A common example is the different allelic forms that give rise to different blood types in humans.

---

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genetic_polymorphism




As can seen above, and as Tukuler has mentioned many times. The polymorphisms sequenced by Tafi are synonyms with L types. Odd, umh?

• 16239T
  
  16204C 16226T
  
  16189C 16261T
  
  16126C 16355T
  
  16126C 16304C
  
  16126C
  
  16126C 16172C 16174T
  
  16172C 16174T
  
  16298T/C
  
  16179T 16298T/C
  
  16223T

quote:

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Allele

Dictionary » A » Allele
Definition

noun, plural: alleles

(genetics)

One member of a pair (or any of the series) of genes occupying a specific spot on a chromosome (called locus) that controls the same trait.


Supplement

For example, a pair of alleles controlling the same trait, i.e. eye color: one allele codes for blue eyes, another allele for brown eyes.

In humans, simple traits such as eye color may be caused by the interaction of only one pair of alleles. But for complex traits, such as height, they are usually caused by the interactions of series of alleles. Some alleles are dominant over other alleles, as in the case of heterozygous pairings (where paired alleles are different, in contrast to homozygous pairings where alleles are the same). In the above example, since the alleles code for different eye colors they are heterozygous.

Colloquially, the term gene is used when referring to an inherited trait that is usually accompanied by a phenotype as in ‘tall genes’ or ‘bad genes’ – but the more proper (scientific) term for this is allele.


Word origin: From German Allel, shortened from Allelomorph, from English allelomorph.
Related forms: allelic (adjective), biallelic (adjective), diallelic (adjective), monoallelic (adjective), allelism (noun), nonallelic (adjective).
Synonym: allelomorph.

---

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Allele

quote:

---

Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."

---

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm

quote:

---

Frequencies display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European pop- ulations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).

[...]

Phased haplotypes were retrieved from HapMap, Release 21. For phylogenetic analysis, graphs were drawn by the use of a sim- ple nearest-neighbor approach and rooted by the use of ancestral alleles determined by comparison with other primate sequences.

[...]

"Of the remaining 10 common core haplotype groups, all ancestral at rs1426654, eight clearly have their origins in Africa (Figure 3B, Figure 4, and Table S4). Three early diverging haplotypes, C1, C2, and C4, are rare outside of Africa and clearly originated there."

"In the lineage containing the majority of haplotypes, each of the three branches, containing C5, C6-C7, and C8-C11, give strong evidence of having originated in Africa. C5 reaches its greatest abundance in West Africa and is rare outside of Africa. Within the other two branches, C6 and C9, which are the most common haplotypes in Africa, are also common worldwide, whereas C7 is abundant in East Asia and much less common but widespread in Africa. "

[...]

Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin. The most likely location for the origin of C11 is, therefore, within the region in which it is fixed or nearly so. As both models for the origin of C11 imply that C3 and C10 were present in ancestors of Europeans, the observed and inferred distributions of these autosomal haplotypes are consistent with the single-out-of- Africa hypothesis derived using uniparental markers (Oppenheimer 2003; Macaulay et al. 2005).

---

--Victor A. Canfield et al.
Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection

Bye bye...

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Just to be clear and precise about my possible
L's in Kefi's chart, I based myself on her given
"sequences" not on stand alone polymorphisms.

I underlined, bolded, and italicized Ish's
list but but don't expect the PussyPuss to
get it since he didn't as much as know the
diff between a sample's sequence and the
supposed range of tested locations. I say
'supposed' because perusal of Kefi's report
shows not every location of a span was observable.

Thing is, in certain cases her 'sequences'
are no more than a single location and
never more longer than three such.

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA : Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA Dr Rym KEFI MIGOD- Institut Pasteur -Tunis Slide2: Plan: I- Introduction II- Example: Phylogenetic and Neandertal enigma. II- Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco). Slide3: The main aim of Human population genetics is to find answers concerning: Introduction Differentiation in single population (Bertranpetit et al 1995; Ann Hum Genet) Slide4: the migration patterns in certain geographic areas. Slide5: human evolution, and the spread of modern humans (Richards et al 1996, Am J Hum Genet ) Slide6: Mitochondrial DNA an important tool for Human population genetics Slide7: The studies of mtDNA polymorphism in human populations were based: initially on restriction enzyme (RFLP) analysis : Low resolution restriction and high resolution restriction mapping (Horai et al 1984, Johnson et al 1983, Horai et al 1984, Cann et al 1987, Torroni et al 1993 ) , Brown and Wallace in 1970: Pioneers in mtDNA investigation Mitochondrial DNA Studies history: Slide8: on combined method using sequence analysis and restriction mapping (Bertranpetit et al 1995, Vigilant et al 1991, Richards et al 1996, Richards et al 1998, Macaulay 1999, Torroni et al 2001, Maca-Meyer et al 2001, Salas et al 2002) on sequence analysis of the mtDNA control region Slide9: Mitochondrial Eve Cann et al; Nature 1987 147 individuals from five geographic populations: Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, New Guinea have been analysed by high-resolution restriction mapping Slide10: Different mtDNA lineages have been diverged from an ancestral women originated in Africa. Mitochondrial Eve Slide11: RFLPs studies of mtDNA from a wide range of Human populations have revealed a number of stable polymorphic sites in the mtDNA coding region .


Mutations observed in both mtDNA coding region and control region in modern human populations have occurred on these pre-existing haplogroups Define the individual mtDNA type or haplotypes Define related groups of mtDNA called haplogroups Slide12: Alignment of sequences with mtDNA reference (CRS) using “Blast 2 sequences” Haplotype and Haplogroup + RFLP analysis Slide13: Examples : Individual 1: Slide14: Mitochondrial haplogroups Slide15: The phylogenetic relationships between haplotypes were inferred in the first studies by Maximum parsimony tree Then by Neighbor- joining trees Later by Median joining network. Trees were based on distance data calculated from Nucleotide sequence or RFLPs data or Nucleotide sequence combined with RFLPs data. Slide16: Macaulay et al, 1999; , Am J Hum Genet, Slide17: Dr Rym KEFI and Dr Eliane BERAUD-COLOMB U600 INSERM-FRE2059 CNRS Laboratoire d'Immunologie, Hôpital de Sainte-Marguerite- Marseille- France Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco).


Slide18: Knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region Study of molecular diversity of modern Human populations Study of archaeological specimens and their environment Slide19: Anthropologic data Transition from Homo erectus towards Homo sapiens archaic Slide20: Ibero-Maurusian man Ibero-Maurusian industry Slide22: Ibero-maurusian man 1-Europian origin? (Vallois 1969, Ferembach 1985) 2- Near East origin ? (Vandermeersch 1978) 4- North African origin ? (Camps 1989, Dutour 1995) 3- Subsaharian origin? (Ferembach 1976) Origins ??? Slide23: Ancestral indigenous component: U6- (Paleolithic: 45.000 years) Eurasiatic component: T, H, U, J…(Neolithic?: 9000 years) Sub-Saharan component : L (Historic?) Former studies
(Neolithic?: 9000 years) Sub-Saharan component : L (Historic?) Former studies using Mitochondrial DNA (Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Rando et al. 1998; Comas et al. 2000; Brakez et al. 2001; Esteban et al. 2004…) showed that the genetic structure of North Africa is composed of 3 components: Genetic data Slide24: to contribute to the knowledge of North Africa settlement We proposed to analyse the mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (13,000 years BP- Morocco).


Aim: Slide25: The cave of Taforalt in Morocco The cave of Taforalt is Located at 55 km in the North-West of Oujda Slide26: Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt Phenol/Chloroforme Extraction Dissolution of bone powders ADN Hypervariable segment 1 (HVS1) of control region (D-Loop) was amplified by PCR and sequenced (R. Kefi et al; C.R.Palévol 2003) Slide27: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of Taforalt population Genetic structure of Taforalt: Eurasiatic Component : H, U, JT, V: 90,5% North African component: U6: 9,5% In modern Human population, JT is presents only in: 1,6% Berbers from the North of Morocco 1,8% of Sicilians, 1,6% of Italians. Slide28: The genetic inheritance of Taforalt population (12,000 years) is composed of: Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V) North African component (U6). Similarities between Taforalt and Moroccan populations (Berbers from the North of Morocco) Underline a genetic continuity Slide29: Ibero-maurusian Origin 4- local origin ? (Camps 1989, Dutour 1995) 3- Sub-Saharan origin? (Ferembach 1976) 1-European origin? (Vallois 1969, Ferembach 1985) 2- Near East origin ? (Vandermeersch 1978) Kefi et al 2005 Anthropologie ; Xliii/1: 55-64 Slide30: Phylogenetic and Neandertal enigma Example 2: Neandertal lived in Europe and west Asia between 150.000 and 30.000 years (Grimaud–Hervé et al 2001, Klein et al 2003) Neandertal has specific morphological characters (lengthened Cranium, presence of Taurus on orbits , big cranial capacity...) which distinguish him from the anatomically modern man Neandertal coexisted with anatomically modern man, before disappearing 30.000 years ago Slide31: Many interrogations about the role of Neandertal in the Human evolution.


Neandertal is he our ancestor? Did he contribute in our genetic inheritance? or did he disappear without leaving any trace in our genome? Homo Sapiens sapiens Homo neandertalensis Did he belongs to another species? Slide32: Krings and collaborators (Krings et al. 1997, Cell) studied for the first time ancient DNA extracted from Neandertal humerus. Neandertal was discovered in West Germany. 377 bp Neandertal sequence was aligned with CRS (Cambridge reference sequence). The alignment shows 27 differences (24 transitions, 2 tranversions, 1 deletion) Ancient bone DNA Slide33: Neandertal sequence was compared to 994 mt DNA sequences from the five continents.


The difference between the Modern Man and Neandertal is higher than the intra specific diversity in Modern Human specie. Slide34: indicates that Neandertal position is distinct from the group including all the Modern Human sequences. NJ tree constructed with 986 modern Human mt DNA sequences, 16 chimpanzee sequences and Neandertal sequence Slide35: These results show that Neandertal is not the ancestor of the modern Human. Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo neandertalensis constitute two distinct species. Homo sapiens sapiens Homo neandertalensis Slide36: Marseille

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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged |