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Author Topic: Ancient Kush: the missing link?
Barachit
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Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...

The studies on this civilization is very scarce which is a pity. People will blame eurocentrism, but i sound to me that afro-centered scholars are doing the same thing that european, which an over fixation on Kemet. It's a trend now to declare that such African tribes came directly from Kemet whitout taking into consideration that another African civilization exist along with Kemet in the Nile Valley during thousands of years. So i hope that some of y'all will drop informations, books reference on our kushite roots,peace!

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Nebsen
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...

The studies on this civilization is very scarce which is a pity. People will blame eurocentrism, but i sound to me that afro-centered scholars are doing the same thing that european, which an over fixation on Kemet. It's a trend now to declare that such African tribes came directly from Kemet whitout taking into consideration that another African civilization exist along with Kemet in the Nile Valley during thousands of years. So i hope that some of y'all will drop informations, books reference on our kushite roots,peace!

Most Afrocentric scholars that I have read say just the opposite that ancient Egypt( Khemt) came from ancient Kush( Nubia)

Here are some books you should check out.

1.Kush: The Jewel Of Nubia, by Miriam Ma'at Ka Re Monges, Excellent introduction into Nubia !

2.Nubian Pharaohs & Meroitic Kings : The Kingdom Of Kush , by Necia Desiree Harkless Another great introduction into Kush by a black women who has studied with one of the leading Nubiologist Dr. William Y. Adams

3.Ancient Nubia: African Kingdom On The Nile Edited by Marjorie M. Fisher & others .
This is a up to date on all the archeological excavations being done in the Sudan; most excellent, somewhat for the advanced reader, but also for those that are truly interested in ancient Nubia . All books can be gotten at Amazon

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...

The studies on this civilization is very scarce which is a pity. People will blame eurocentrism, but i sound to me that afro-centered scholars are doing the same thing that european, which an over fixation on Kemet. It's a trend now to declare that such African tribes came directly from Kemet whitout taking into consideration that another African civilization exist along with Kemet in the Nile Valley during thousands of years. So i hope that some of y'all will drop informations, books reference on our kushite roots,peace!

Right ....... You're "new" and want this information,
like it has never been posted here before in numerous
threads. But see below nevertheless..


NEBSEN says:
Most Afrocentric scholars that I have read say just the opposite that ancient Egypt( Khemt) came from ancient Kush( Nubia)

Indeed. So I don't see what mysterious "trend" is
being talked about. What "trend" by the strawman "Afrocentrics"?

----

 -

HERE'S A RECAP FROM ANOTHER POST ON RELOADED
REPRODUCED BELOW AS TO ALLEGED "OVER FOCUS" ON
EGYPT

1) Attention on Egypt is partly attention to what's large scale.
It hooks into a UNIVERSAL "history" problem.
Many people simply find history overall boring. I
don't see many white people for example hunched
over books dealing with white Slavic civilization
circa 900BC, or for that matter Germany 900BC.
There has to be something for people that captures
the imagination, something that would make them
passionate if you want a popular response.
That's why we have historians - to dig into all
the tedious detail. Henry the Seventh for example
according to a number of historians was a guy who
did some good for England, increasing revenues and
running a relatively efficient administration. But
who the hell ever heard of or cares about Henry
the Seventh, when you have the dramatic sex, lies
and cruelty of Henry the Eight? Who do people know
or care about? Certainly not the accomplishments
of Henry the Seventh.

2) Documentation is a big factor. Ancient Egypt left
over 3,000 years of documentation, compared to
say, the 50-60 years span of the Zulu kingdom. With
that kind of long term, even spectacular documentation
in the form of monuments and pyramids, it is a slam
dunk ancient Egypt would get more attention. It gets
more, because it generated more detail over the ages.
White people themselves in some instances seem
to prefer Egypt to their own cold climate civilizations.
What do white people flock by the hundreds of
thousands, and spend tens of millions to see
every year? Ancient mud huts in Ireland,
circa 200BC, or spectacular Egyptian pyramids, c. 2000BC?
White people themselves have made their preference
known on this score, and have appropriated to a great
extent, the history, symbols and some might say
even the religion of Egypt.
White people have especially been obsessive about
"Egyptomania" - throughout history, even consuming
human flesh from Egypt as part of their history.
White hypocrisy is rife on this score. As Van
Sertima rhetorically asked those hypocritical
whites who question why blacks "should" be interested in Egypt.

"What does it matter so much to you who we are interested in?"

--------------------------------------------------------
-
--------------------------------------------------------

3) Various areas of Europe suffer the same problem.
You dont hear much about the Slavic zones for
example, or pre-Vike Scandanavia compared to Greece or Rome.
In fact that is a complaint among some European
historians, who lament the dominance of northern
Europeans in writing the "official" line on Europe.
In the northern European narrative, white eastern
peoples of the Balkans, the Baltics and the Slavic zone appear
less important because the people who control the
presses and propaganda organs slanted the picture that way.
Quick modern example is WWII, and the
tendency of Western historians (until recent decades)
to downplay the fact that it was the massive Russian
onslaught that ultimately defeated Hitler, not the
Normandy invasion and Western front (although this
assisted the "Slavic" effort in very important ways).


4) Time periods are another factor. You don't hear
much about the Nordics- Sweden, Dennmark, Norway etc
until you get the Viking age, and the modern age,
in which the Vikings were then written up and
popularized by Europeans and nordic partisans
worldwide.

5) Egypt is also a prominent because it plays an
influential part, indirectly, in Western religious heritage.
The experience in Egypt was a formative one on the
Hebrews in many ways- from Moses, to the Exodus,
to the moral/religious aspects of Egypt in Hebrew and thus
eventually Western thought. The Hebrew religion eventually spread
to huge parts of the world, with massive spaces
dominated by Christianity and Islam. Some black
folk in "the West" get their first exposure to
Egypt in a religious setting. They may note that Moses
who himself married an Ethiopian, openly gives the allegedly
"cursed" Black sons of Ham credit where it is due.
He groups Kush, Egypt, Punt etc all into one
grouping, unlike the artifical racial splitting
and stereotyping that was to follow, pronounced no
bogus "curse of Ham" (it was conjured millennia
later via Jewish, Arab and European writers),
and openly acknowledges the superior material
culture and and learning of the pre-Hebrew "Ham" civilizations.
This is why even Diop hisself quotes approvingly
from Moses, and uses his writings as one of the
threads in his argument for an African Egypt.


6) Egypt is also important to Africans because it is a
child of the African environment- one child, and a
spectacular child, but still a progeny of Africa.
Indeed Egypt itself is no initiator of the Dynastic civilization
that sprung up. Egypt developed out of the common
cultural complex of the Sudanic/Nubian regions, including
Qustul and Kerma, as credible scholars demonstrate (Ehret
2010, Wendorf 1998 et al). Indeed it is no surprise that the people
ethnically the closest to the ancient Egyptians are Nubians as
scholars have shown for decades (Yurco 1989, Godde 2009, etc)
Eurocentrics attempts at "splittism", to downplay this, pumping
up Egyptian exceptionalism as if it has little part in the Nilotic
cultural complex that gave it birth fail when the whole picture
is examined. Continual Eurocentric denials, deception
and distortion of this fact is what pisses people
off. Desire to set the FACTUAL record straight,
means that Egypt will continue to draw plenty
of attention. BUt keep in mind, that in and of
itself, Egypt is interesting, more so that numerous
European historical venues, as Europeans themselves
attest by their travel and dollars.

7) Ancient Egypt was never a leading light of disaporan inspiration among African
Americans. Other things like Ethiopiansim are bigger historically. Marcus Garvey's
movement is but one example. Look at the opening lines on UNIA's famous anthem:
"Ethiopia, land of our fathers.." Egypt is not much of a consideration.
Likewise look at the influential Rasta movement. The dreads center on
Ethiopia not Egypt. You sometimes hear white people pontificate bout
"Black Americans" who are supposedly "too concerned" about Egypt.
Apart from white hypocrisy in making such statements, it is complete
nonsense. Ethiopia has always been a clear first among the diaspora ahead of Egypt.
The 2 are not mututally exclusive of course, and Egypt has always
been part of the mix.

ANother factor in the mix is the millions of African immigrants here on US
soil- Nigerians, Ethiopians etc. These people are making a definite impact.
They are reproducing their own cultures and creating new blends for
the American environment. They are not focused on Egypt much.


8) African history, once it shakes loose of
biased, distorted European models will increasingly approach
a more balanced, accurate. state you call for. With some
"enthusiasts" there may be a danger of seeing Egypt as some sort
of "central headquarters" of civilization in Africa.
THis may be so with some. But a balanced model,
that acknowledges African bio-historical
diversity (rather than Eurocentric distortion,
stereotyping and splitting), & that respects the
dynamic nature of the African environment and its peoples,
(rather than static Eurocentric thinking
- i.e. the Sahara and rigid "sub-Saharan" Africans notion), and
that sees Egypt as a child of Africa (rather than
part of some other outside venue as in Arabized
/Eurocentric conceptions), will move along a more
accurate, balanced African history. Keita's
"Saharao-Tropical complex" notion is one good
alternative starting point. Such models should
be specifically focused and rooted in clear evidence, rather
than a grand theory that is supposed to account for
everything African. A grand "central headquarters
Egypt" theory for example is one of the things to be avoided.
On the flip side, narrow "West Africanism"
or "Bantuism" approaches play into hypocritical
Eurocentric/Arabized hands. A balanced model is needed.

---------------------------------------------------

We know now of course that the Biblical "Cush" deals more
with the Sudan not present day Horn of Africa, though
trade links with Yemen and south Arabia are part
of that whole region. "Cushite" king Tirharqua, who
is mentioned in the Bible came from the Sudan not
the present day Horn. Haile Selassie types and the Rastas
make a number of claims about "Cush" or "Kush" or
"Ethiopia", but the Bible points to the Sudan, not
present day Ethiopia. Trade links or contacts with Yemen
or south Arabia is of course in the mix, but the Sudan
is the main field.

"Kush" or "Cush" is a sub-Saharan entity, with part
of its culture/empire/zone of influence extending
past the present day Sahara. The shift of the desert
southward obscures the fact that numerous African
cultures
once roamed far north- another factor exposing the
dubious nature of "sub-Saharan" claims, as if the
desert is some sort of natural "apartheid" line.


-----------------------------------------------------

HERE' ANOTHER POST FROM RELOADED, QUESTIONING SOME
"SELASSIE SUPREME" HORNER CLAIMS TRYING TO INCORPORATE
BIBLICAL "CUSH" OR "KUSH'..


 -


---------------------------------------


1) Cush/Kush is the biological brother of Mizraim which means Egypt in the Bible text.
We know from studies that the closest people to the Egyptians are Nubians/Sudanics,
not Yemenis, or today's Ethiopians

2) Cush/Kush means "black" in Hebrew- used sometimes in clear reference
to dark skin- "Can the Ethiopian [or Cushite] change his skin, or the leopard
his spots?" asks Jeremiah. The use of "Cushite" is linked closer to the Egyptian
zone peoples not Yemen.


3) Numbers 12 where they get upset at Moses wife- specifically references the
word Cushite interchangeably in footnotes, pointing to the Sudan again, not
simply Ethiopians who might be near Yemen. Arabia may be in the mix but
the primary weight goes back to 'Cushite' and how it is often grouped
with other nations in Africa- like Egypt. See item 7 below.

"And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian
woman whom he had taken; for he had taken a Cushite as wife."

--Numbers 12:1

4) Zerah the Ethiopian came out against Asa king of Judah in 2 Chronicles.
The Jewish Encyclopedia places Zerah near Egypt, indeed holding that he was
an Egyptian pharaoh (Osorkon II). The Biblical narrative says he was an Ethiopian,
literally "Cushite" as footnotes to the good, detailed translations show.
This again shows that Cush, in this context, is identified with the region
of Egypt/Nubia/Sudan

5) The Sons of Mizraim are those renowned for handling the bow and shield- Cush, Lud etc
Jeremiah 46:9- "let the mighty men go forth: Cush and Phut that handle the shield, and the Ludim that handle the bow."
Isa 66:19 also refers to Pul or Put and Lud "that draw the bow."

Per scholar David Goldenberg 2003 The Curse of Ham:
"In a description of the foreign contingents in the Egyptian army at the battle of Carchemish in 605 B.C.E, Jer 46:9 says: "Let the warriors go forth, Kush and Put who grasp the shield. And the Ludim who grasp and draw the bow.".. However because Lud is grouped with Kush in Jer 46:9 and Ezek 30:5 and because Put, whether it is to be identified with modern Somalia or Libya is in Africa, most scholars today agree that Lud too is in Africa. And just as the bows, so too the shields of the Kushites must have made an impression. Apparently their striking feature was also their size. Similarly Strabo (17.1.54) mentions the Ethiopians' long oblong shields."
--David M. Goldenberg. The Curse of Ham: Race and Slavery in Early Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

7) As Goldenberg shows the Biblical text often groups Cush, Put, Lud etc together.
They are all related- sons of Ham or sons of Mizraim (Egypt). This again leans
the weight towards the Egyptian-Sudanic side not the Horn.

The Pharaoh who came to help his Hebrew ally pharaoh was Shebitku, who came from Kush (or Nubia), located in what it today northern Sudan. He sent an expeditionary army to Jerusalem headed by his 21-year-old cousin, Prince Taharqa, ((2 Kings 19:9; Isaiah 37:9)
"And he heard say of Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He has come forth to make war with thee."

[8] Phillip the Apostle baptized an important official from "Cush"
or "Ethiopia" in Acts 8. But that chapter specifically
mentions that the man's boss was Candace, a Sudanic
title of queens. That has little to do with the Horn.
Likewise we are told "Cush" or "Kush" stands for today's Ethiopia.
But the Bible mentions Taharqua specifically as coming to help his
Hebrew allies in Jerusalem. Taharqua came from Nubia/Sudan not today's
Ethiopia. What are we to make of claims of SOME of today's Ethiopians
as to how they appear in the Biblical record? In fact the Biblical record
points to the Sudan- and Kush more than anything.

IN the Biblical record both "Kush" (meaning black) and "Mizraim" (meaning Egypt)
are biological brothers, sons of Ham. We know from all our ES studies that the
closest people to Egyptians are Nubians from the Sudan, confirming the Biblical
narrative. So how could today's Ethiopia be Biblical Kush/Cush?


Again, while not ruling out other areas as a secondary, this shows
the weight of things is towards the Sudanic-Nubian-Egyptian area or zone
in the Bible text.


 -

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^ The Rescue of Jerusalem is a very interesting book which I read many years ago. I certainly suggest it for a good reading.
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Barachit
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No need to be sarcastic Entique Cordova yes im new in this forum where you got hundreds and hundreds of threads. Anyway thans you and Nebsen for the informations,it's very informatie=ve [Smile]

I never said that afro scholars deny that ancient egyptians came from Kush. I was talking about modern day africans. Are ALL moderne "tribes" migrte directly from Egypt? The answer is YES for many afro centered scholars . You will find hundreds of linguistic,anthropological and cultural comparison between modern african group like the Yoruba, Akan, Wolof etc... and the ancient egytians. But what about Kush/Nubia? Here some example:

http://www.ankhonline.com/ankh_num_16/ankh_16_t_obenga_ancient%20egyptian%20and%20modern%20yoruba.pdf

Check this out :

quote:
Any group of people that derives its language from one parent language has one Cosmology, and Cosmology is defined here as a process of how a homogenous group of people relate and interpret their perception of the world in the realm of all human experience, such as religion, morality, ethics, economics, education, culture, and jurisprudence. The poetic language the Asantes, Ewes, Gas and various African ethnic groups swear in their kings is the same way as the Ancient Egyptians swore in their kings and the reader is directed to read, ‘The Book Of Coming Forth By The Day’ which is erroneously called, ‘The Egyptian Book Of The Dead’, (Page 347) by E.A. Wallis Budge.
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/artikel.php?ID=246932

^^^this is what i meant by "trend". If ancient egyptian culture arose from Kush, then we can theorize that some kushite went in other parts of Africa like Ghana or Togo.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^^Almost all African populations, including AEians and Kushite of course, originated in Northeastern Africa possibly around Sudan but that was *before* the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian and Kushite empires.

 -

The linkage between various African populations including Ancient Egyptians and Kushites is mostly related to this common origin in Northeast Africa/Sudan and the Green Saharan culture which lasted for more than 3000 years.

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ausar
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:

im new in this forum where you got hundreds and hundreds of threads.

Hi and welcome to Egyptsearch [Smile]

If you need materials for a school report
you're writing, or whatever, to get to
our archives I suggest a search with keys
* site:egyptsearch.com
* subject1 (in your case taseti wawat kerma napata meroe etc
* subject2 (whatever aspect interests you)
* subject3 (name of particular ES member(s) for their individual ideas)

Hope that helps.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Barachit says:
I was talking about modern day africans. Are ALL moderne "tribes"
migrte directly from Egypt?
The answer is YES for many afro centered scholars
.

^^I don't think many Afro-centered scholars necessarily
hold this as a sacred theory. SOME do but whether this
is even a majority is open to question. The claim of
some sort of huge migration out of Egypt to West
Africa due to the Assyrian conquest circa 700-600BC
is an old one, associated with assorted diffusionists
or with Chancellor Williams circa 1970. But this is old
scholarship from 1970 and the 1960s. Few credible modern scholars
are going round claiming that West African civilization
came about because of the "fleeing blacks" scurrying
out of Egypt ahead of Persians or Assyrians, or that
the "Bantu" migrations were started by allegedly "fleeing" blacks.
The Bantu migrations were already underway centuries
before alleged "fleeing negroes" reputedly began them.
Again, few credible scholars today advance such extreme notions.
Molefi Asante, a leading "Afrocentric" scholar, makes
few such claims in his books. If he has somewhere,
I would indeed like to see an exact quote and specific
reference. They may exist but to date few have been
able to produce said references.

The Obenga link details his argument for linkages
between Egyptian and the West African Yoruba, but
others see a better link with Northeast African peoples
and the Chadic peoples, not West Africans. In any event
the linkages are with AFRICAN peoples, so the attempt
by some to play a non-African "splittism" game fails. There are
differing schools of thought, not the monolithic 'Afrocentric'
bogeyman invoked in many quarters.


Barachit says:
You will find hundreds of linguistic,anthropological and cultural
comparison between modern african group like the
Yoruba, Akan, Wolof etc... and the ancient egytians.


^^So what? Cross cultural comparisons are the stuff of
Anthropology. In fact we can thank WHITE scholars
for making numerous such comparisons. The detailed
analyses of Frankfort for example show us numerous
cultural parallels between Egyptians and other Africans.

Here is the conservative Encyclopedia Britannica on
Egyptian religion for example:


"A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a
cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped
figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some
rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground,"
and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt)
presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in
southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or
Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are
closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal
cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual
dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African
origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the
king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal
of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a
matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in
Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)."


(Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian
Religion" , pg 506-508)

And here are some more conservative white scholars
on comparisons. In fact, one of them, a leading
Egyptologist, Redford, is on record as a sometime
CRITIC of 'Afrocentrism"..


".. but his [Frankfort's] frequent citations from African ethnography- over
60 are listed in the index- demonstrate that there is a powerful resonance
between recent African concepts and practice on one hand, and ancient
Egyptian kingship and religion on the other.."

Rowlands (Chapter 4) provides much additional evidence suggesting that
'sub-Saharan Africa and Ancient Egypt share certain commonalities in
substantiative images and ideas, yet whose cultural forms display
differences consistent with perhaps millennia of historical divergence and
institutionalization'.

"First, kingship in Egypt was 'the channel through which the powers of
nature flowed into the body politic to bring human endeavour to fruition'
and thus was closely analogous to the widespread African belief that
'chieftains entertain closer relationship with the powers in nature than
other men' (Frankfort 1948: 33, ch. 2). Second, the Egyptian king's
metaphorical identification as an all powerful bull who tramples his
enemies and inseminates his cow-mother to achieve regeneration was
derived from Egyptian ideas and beliefs abut cattle for which best parallels
can be found in some, but not all, recent African societies.."

"Like the chiefs discussed by Rowlands, the king combines 'life giving
forces with the power to kill" (Rowlands, CHaptr 4:52). Overall, this
Egyptian concept of kingship, so akin to African models, seems very
different to that held in the ancient Near East (Frankfort 1948; Postgate
1995)"

"In conclusion, there is a relative abundance of ancient materials relevant
to contact and influence, as well as striking correlations between ancient
Egyptian civilization and the ethnography of recent and current
sub-Saharan communities, chiefdoms and states... Perhaps the fact that
commonalities do exist suggests that, because of great time depth and
different organization, these commonalities may result from inherently
African processes."

--David O'Connor, Andrew Reid (2007) ANCIENT EGYPT IN AFRICA.
pp 15-22

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OTHER MAINSTREAM SCHOLARS SUPPORT THE WORK ABOVE-
EXAMPLES:

Conservative mainstream Oxford
Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt shows
ancient Egypt derived from an African
cultural sub-stratum


[QUOTE:]

[i]"The evidence also points to linkages to
other northeast African peoples, not
coincidentally approximating the modern
range of languages closely related to
Egyptian in the Afro-Asiatic group
(formerly called Hamito-Semetic). These
linguistic similarities place ancient
Egyptian in a close relationship with
languages spoken today as far west as
Chad, and as far south as Somalia.
Archaeological evidence also strongly
supports an African origin. A widespread
northeastern African cultural assemblage,
including distinctive multiple barbed
harpoons and pottery decorated with
dotted wavy line patterns, appears during
the early Neolithic (also known as the
Aqualithic, a reference to the mild
climate of the Sahara at this time).
Saharan and Sudanese rock art from this
time resembles early Egyptian
iconography. Strong connections
between Nubian (Sudanese) and
Egyptian material culture continue in
later Neolithic Badarian culture of Upper
Egypt. Similarities include black-topped
wares, vessels with characteristic
ripple-burnished surfaces, a special
tulip-shaped vessel with incised and
white-filled decoration, palettes, and
harpoons...

Other ancient Egyptian practices show
strong similarities to modern African
cultures including divine kingship, the
use of headrests, body art, circumcision,
and male coming-of-age rituals, all
suggesting an African substratum or
foundation for Egyptian civilization.."

-- Source: Donald Redford (2001) The
Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt,
Volume 3. Oxford University Press. p.28

Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:

http://www.ankhonline.com/ankh_num_16/ankh_16_t_obenga_ancient%20egyptian%20and%20modern%20yoruba.pdf

This is a very interesting 2007 article by Obenga. It's my first time reading it so thank you for posting it (I'm familiar with Obenga works since I have read some of his books including Origine commune de l'egyptien ancien, du copte et des langues negro-africaines modernes )

Beyond the lexical and various linguistic similarities between various African languages including Ancient Egyptians and Kushite languages. What is important to understand is how they are related to each others. Their language genealogy. This is what has historical repercussions.

It's important to understand, as I stated above, that according to Obenga's research. Yoruba, Akan, Dinka, etc are NOT (yes I said NOT) descendants of Ancient Egyptians. Modern African languages are not descendants of Ancient Egyptians or the Kushite languages.

It's the Ancient Egyptian language, the Kushite language, as well as modern African language which are descendant of a common language. Thus of a common population. We can call maybe proto-Egypto-African.

For example look at this partial language tree taken from the Obenga document you just posted a link to:
 -

What we learn above is that Niger-Congo languages like Yoruba, Wolof and Akan are NOT descendants of Ancient Egyptians. We can see that Niger-Congo languages along with Cushitic and Chadic language are descendant of a common ancestor language. Called here Egypto-African Common Stock.

It means there was probably at some ancient time a group of people who spoke a common language we can call proto-Egypto-African, who then migrated away in different direction (possibly still in the same region at first), creating that way language differentiations.

Ehret doesn't go as far as finding a common Egypto-African ancestor language, but considering that all African languages spoken today originated in the same region, is a strong clue that they may derive from the same common language and population before migrating away in other regions of Africa. I could say the language of the E-P2 haplogroup carriers (even if it includes A carriers too).

Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo language are also already said to be related to each other through the Kongo-Saharan language family proposed by some linguists (google search 'Kongo-Saharan'). According to this theory, and combined with Obenga's African language classification, you could change in the graph above Niger-Congo for Kongo-Saharan.

So modern African populations and tribes are NOT descendants of the Ancient Egyptian language or the Kushite language. It's AEians, the Kushite language and modern African languages which are all equally descendants of a common ancestor language. This has historical implication.

This is a more elaborate language classification table from Obenga (Negro-Egyptian is the same thing as Egypto-African):
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6195/tableaunegroegyptienthe.png (the image is big so I won't post it)

More can be read about it here:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008390;p=1

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...

The studies on this civilization is very scarce which is a pity. People will blame eurocentrism, but i sound to me that afro-centered scholars are doing the same thing that european, which an over fixation on Kemet. It's a trend now to declare that such African tribes came directly from Kemet whitout taking into consideration that another African civilization exist along with Kemet in the Nile Valley during thousands of years. So i hope that some of y'all will drop informations, books reference on our kushite roots,peace!

בָּרַךְ, you are mistaken on a lot of your arguments.

Did I you actually do any reseach, before you started this question?

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Barachit
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Thanks you all for the answers. Thanks Ardo for the advice, now i will not bother the veterans of this forum with topics which were already discuss [Big Grin] .

Amun-Ra The Ultimate, what you said make sense. Like i said earlier, the issue i raise is the lack of study on Kush and it's influence in the rest of Africa. But thanks to you guys i can see that some studies have been made on this subject.

Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor, shalom! The link i posted with the Akan and Ewe, testify that there is a trend to see an egyptian infuence in all african cultures. It's maybe true,but what about Kush?

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:

Thanks Ardo for the advice, now i will not bother the veterans of this forum with topics which were already discuss [Big Grin] .


.

Now I know that's a joke?! [Big Grin]

תזכה לשנים רבות גברת

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
[QB] Thanks you all for the answers. Thanks Ardo for the advice, now i will not bother the veterans of this forum with topics which were already discuss [Big Grin] .

There's no bother. This is a history website, every subjects have been discussed before and will be discussed again and again. It's not like sports or news websites where the main discussions is about the new things and game results happenings everyday. Historical subjects can always be discussed many times over in light of new research or new analysis of old data. In short, new threads are welcome on any historical subject. We always got new evidence, data and analysis about things discussed many years ago.

quote:

Amun-Ra The Ultimate, what you said make sense. Like i said earlier, the issue i raise is the lack of study on Kush and it's influence in the rest of Africa. But thanks to you guys i can see that some studies have been made on this subject.

Of course, the influence question is a "if". Maybe, there's not a lot of study about the influence of Kush in the rest of Africa, because there is simply no such influence.

You are right to say there hasn't been many studies on that subject. If we consider Kush to be the Kushite empires, starting with the Kushite speaking people (Kerma, Kush, Meroe, Napata) who eventualy built the pyramids and developed the Nilo-Saharan Meroitic language and script, who were then later on conquered by the Axumites kings and their Nubian speaker allies around 350 CE. I don't think any Kerma/Kushite cultural practices spread to other African populations like Akan, Zulu, and even Dinka, Maasai, Luo.

There's indeed a lack of studies on that front.

The question you're asking is: "Is there cultural traces of diffusion from the Kushite empire (or Ancient Egypt) toward other African populations?". For example, similar artifacts or cultural practices. In my opinion, I don't think it is the case. If there is, it would be very limited.

For example, we know headrests can be seen all over black African populations. Hinting at a common origin. But I don't think the common origin of headrests in Africa can be located during the Ancient Egyptian or the Kushite empires (including the early Kerma Kingdom). It probably predates those empires. The origin of the headrest cultural artifact, probably predates both the AEian and Kerma/Kushite empires. It probably originates at a time period when AEians and Kushites and most African populations were part of the same culture (either at the period of their common origin in Northeastern Africa or more likely later on in the Green Sahara period which covered the region from the Atlantic coast to the Nile).

Maybe the best place to start to look for such cultural linkage would be in modern populations around modern Sudan and East Africa who may have kept some ancient Kushite traditions alive even if they received those themselves through diffusion (Nubians, Nuba, Dinka, Karrayyu, Afar, Oromo, etc), then try to look for it in other African populations (Akan, Yoruba, Zulu, Maasai, Luo, etc). But personally, I don't think there's evidence of such diffusion all over Africa. If any it would be limited to modern populations now living in eastern Africa around Sudan, Ethiopia, Kenya, etc who may have kept their ancestral traditions alive. Traditions which may be traced back to the Kushite empires (Kerma, Kush, etc). The Meroitic language itself, the language of the Kerma and Kushite people, disappeared without descent replaced by the Nubian language and people which originated from western Sudan and put an end to the Kushite Meroitic kingdom in league with the Axumites (Semitic speakers).

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Nebsen:

quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...

The studies on this civilization is very scarce which is a pity. People will blame eurocentrism, but i sound to me that afro-centered scholars are doing the same thing that european, which an over fixation on Kemet. It's a trend now to declare that such African tribes came directly from Kemet whitout taking into consideration that another African civilization exist along with Kemet in the Nile Valley during thousands of years. So i hope that some of y'all will drop informations, books reference on our kushite roots,peace!

Most Afrocentric scholars that I have read say just the opposite that ancient Egypt( Khemt) came from ancient Kush( Nubia)

Here are some books you should check out.

1.Kush: The Jewel Of Nubia, by Miriam Ma'at Ka Re Monges, Excellent introduction into Nubia !

2.Nubian Pharaohs & Meroitic Kings : The Kingdom Of Kush , by Necia Desiree Harkless Another great introduction into Kush by a black women who has studied with one of the leading Nubiologist Dr. William Y. Adams

3.Ancient Nubia: African Kingdom On The Nile Edited by Marjorie M. Fisher & others .
This is a up to date on all the archeological excavations being done in the Sudan; most excellent, somewhat for the advanced reader, but also for those that are truly interested in ancient Nubia . All books can be gotten at Amazon

I think part of the problem is that people tend to identify or rather confuse Kush with Nubia. Nubia is a broad region south of Egypt where many cultures existed with Kush being just one of them. Does Egypt have roots in Nubia? This certainly seems to be the case but that does not mean Kush as a cultural or political entity was the source of that culture. The culture of Kush proper didn't exist until the Middle Kingdom.

But I agree there is not as much focus on Kush as on Egypt and I think this does seem to be the case with so-called 'Afrocentrists' as Eurocentrists.

Here are several more books:

Egypt, Kush, Aksum: Northeast Africa by by Kenny Mann

The Kingdom of Kush: The Napatan and Meroitic Empires by Derek A. Welsby & Markus Wiener

Wretched Kush: Ethnic Identities and Boundaries in Egypt's Nubian Empire by Stuart Tyson Smith

The Double Kingdom Under Taharqo: Studies in the History of Kush and Egypt, C. 690-664 BC by Jeremy W. Pope

Note to be careful about the racial bias when reading these books especially those older works. There seems to be a lot less of it in more recent works but even then sometimes pops up.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:

Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor, shalom! The link i posted with the Akan and Ewe, testify that there
is a trend to see an egyptian infuence in all african cultures. It's maybe true,but what about Kush?

Dubious. The link you posted shows no such "trend" at
all. T. Obenga has argued for Ancient Egyptian - West African language
links since the 1980s if notbefore. The mysterious "trend"
you keep talking about does not exist. What strawman "trend"?
ANd who outside a small group of so-called 'Afrocentrists"
sees sweeping Egyptian influence in all African cultures?
Long-standing scholars of West Africa for example
see no such vast influence of Egypt. Where for
example does a respected heavyweight African scholar like
Adu Boahen talk much about ancient Egyptian influence
pervading other African cultures? Answer- he doesn't-
which again raises the question as to the location
of these mysterious "trends"...

Djehuti says:
I think part of the problem is that people tend to identify or rather confuse Kush with
Nubia. Nubia is a broad region south of Egypt where many cultures existed with Kush being just one of them.


Indeed. Part of the confusion is that Kush emerged
from the Nubian region, and is seen by some scholars
as a successor kingdom to the Nubian polities to
the south of Egypt. Kush almost overran Egypt in
the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550 BC). It was already
a major player in the ancient Nile Valley way back when
not only during the Christian era. Of course, Kush
went on to do quite nicely after the Dynastic era's
collapse as well, and conquered Egypt under the 25th
Dynasty, circa 800BC. So Kush indeed sprang from that
Nubian region.

TOMB REVEALS ANCIENT EGYPT'S HUMILIATING SECRET
http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html
------------------------------------------------------------

Folks should keep in mind that while its territory
overlapped far north, even to the Mediterranean,
in various eras, Kush can be legitimately be
called a "sub-Saharan" entity, as noted above.
This means "sub-Saharan" Africa had its own writing,
wheeled tech like chariots, pyramids, etc etc millennia
before any "Arabs" appeared. Indeed, Kush is so
recognized by a number of scholars, such as Collins
and Burns 2013- A History of Sub-Saharan Africa.
Old claims about "sub-Saharan" Africa having to wait
for "Arabs" or "Islam" to show up to bring this or that, are
increasingly revealed as dubious by modern scholarship.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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Nubia was a never a term used by Ancient Egyptians to refer to Kushite people or their territory. It never appeared in any Ancient Egyptian text. Ancient Egyptians used to refer to the Kushite territory and people as Ta-Seti (Land of the Bow) since the Old Kingdom. During the Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty), the word Kush began to be used alongside Ta-Seti. Nubia, a term often used by modern egyptologists, was first used to refer to people and territory by Strabo a Greek geographer and has no relation to Kush or Ta-Seti.

Here's the chronology of the Kushite Kingdoms:
 -

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Djehuti
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^ That's because the term 'Nubia' is a Roman designation for lands south of Egypt. Though many scholars speculate the etymology to be of Egyptian origin i.e. Nubia is derived from 'nub' the Egyptian word for gold as in the gold rich areas south of Egypt. Either way Nubia again is a broad land region while Kush or 'Kesh' as the Egyptians probably use is a specific polity or ethnic group from that region.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Either way Nubia again

Ancient Egyptians never used the word Nubia to refer to any people or land, so come back to us with Ancient Egyptian words if you want your post to make any sense.
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Son of Ra
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Either way Nubia again

Ancient Egyptians never used the word Nubia to refer to any people or land, so come back to us with Ancient Egyptian words if you want your post to make any sense.
Do you have poor reading comprehension or what? Djehuti NEVER AGREED that the Ancient Egyptians used the word Nubian. He said scholars themselves SPECULATE that the word "Nubia" ITSELF etymology may have Ancient Egyptian origin. By that Djehuti has nothing to try and prove. He said he agrees that Nubia was a Roman term and also that it is just a broad term that means land south of Egypt.
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Djehuti
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^ I think Ahmanut is probably still butt hurt from certain FACTS that I told him before and/or FACTS Swenet and others have told him. Either way, he is behaving very stupidly more than his usual way now.
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Either way Nubia again

Ancient Egyptians never used the word Nubia to refer to any people or land, so come back to us with Ancient Egyptian words if you want your post to make any sense.
And where in any of my posts did I ever say they did??!! [Eek!]

The Egyptians never used the word 'Egypt' for their land or 'Egyptians' to refer to themselves but you use those terms also, so quit with the self righteous b.s., you hypocrite! [Embarrassed]

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the lioness,
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quote:


Strabo's
Geography

Book XVII

The lower parts of the country on each side Meroe,
along the Nile towards the Red Sea,
are occupied by Megabari and Blemmyes,
who are subject to the Ethiopians,
and border upon the Egyptians;
about the sea are Troglodytae.
The Troglodytae, in the latitude of Meroe,
are distant ten or twelve days' journey from the Nile.
On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubians [Nubians] in Libya, a populous nation.
They begin [220] from Meroe,
and extend as far as the bends (of the river).
They are not subject to the Ethiopians,
but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.



 -
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^Calm down Son of Ra and Djehuti. I know you are both fellow undercover racists but there's no need for any of this.

It's obviously the part after "Either way Nubia again...", that needs to be demonstrated with Ancient Egyptian words and text.

My question to Dhehuti was not a trick question. It's a completely legitimage question that can be answered directly.

Then of course, it opens up to other line of analysis/inquiries to see in what context each words appears in Ancient Egyptian literature.

It's important because many egyptologists in books and various works translate everything related to the people and land south of Ancient Egypt as "Nubia" including the word Kush (Ksh) (even if Nubia is not even an Ancient Egyptian word).

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:


Strabo's
Geography

Book XVII

The lower parts of the country on each side Meroe,
along the Nile towards the Red Sea,
are occupied by Megabari and Blemmyes,
who are subject to the Ethiopians,
and border upon the Egyptians;
about the sea are Troglodytae.
The Troglodytae, in the latitude of Meroe,
are distant ten or twelve days' journey from the Nile.
On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubians [Nubians] in Libya, a populous nation.
They begin [220] from Meroe,
and extend as far as the bends (of the river).
They are not subject to the Ethiopians,
but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.



 -
In Meroitic the word Nob, did not mean slave, it was used as an ethnonym for the Nob(a) or Nubian people.

 -

.

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Clyde Winters
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The best site on the Kushites is Arkamani. ARKAMANI Sudan Electronic Journal of Archaeology and Anthropology published articles on the various Kushite empires.The papers are written in Arabic and English. Check it out.


See:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070913062518/http://arkamani.org/arkamani-library/library-contents.htm

.

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KING
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Let me post that I feel that Nubian is an term used by Euros as an LIE about the original egtyptians.

Modern Nubians are in fact Egyptians, and South Sudnaese are actually the Nubians of Ancient Egypt.

Why the cover up?? Because Euros wanted to explain away why Egupt had an popualation that was Clearly Black African. So they claimed the people Nubians were actually apart of an different kingdom. The Shift is evident in the meaning and to think that Lower Nubia is in Egypt is just 1 way. To me personally, Nubians are remnants of Egyptians who stayed in the country after being overrun by Outsiders.

The Ancestors of the Dinka, nuer Shilluk etc created Kush and I feel that this is evident since Egyptians majority painted Nubians Coal Black

Let me explain, AE were crushed by The Most High because of enslaving the Hebrews. God states in the Bible that Egypt would no longer be a power or country. And so we see Egypt being flooded by foreigners etc. You can't fight god people. Repent and change.

Let me move on...Euros are trying to write themselves into regions in the world that they were not their. Africa is 1 of them. Many euros are empty people who feel the only way to uplift, is to lie about where they come from and who is their people. Now not all Whites are like that. I call the enlightened whites, really Pigment less Africans. These whites are people that Africans MUST Unite with and rally around because they are their people. These whites are conscious people who know what has happened since whites started documentaing the world.

These whites get yelled at and sometimes feel they are alone in their fight against the other whites in the world, since Africans don't trust them, and Racists whites they dispsie. Often times these Whites are White Rastas, involoved in African culture etc. The spirit of the African is in them and I think that we see that in the people of the past who fought against the lies of the establishemnt.

The Black and white devide is what keeps the system thriving and growing and oppressing the majority. When Whites and blacks realzie they have an common enemy and can hold hands together, then and nonly then can the Mass throw off the shackles of Brain fog the keeps us in chains.

What I mean is that the system is set up to dictate everything in our lives. From Birth to death, we are supposed to put our faith into the machine, instead of each other. This is why Euros like Alessi Berri can come on these forums and post LIES about the protrait of Egyptisns even creating pics of euros as there brainwashed lies of how Egyptians looked like. It's an disease that they suffer from since the system conditioned them to think that they are the purseveyors of everything right in the world and the white burden. Blacks are taught from the system that their colour is something to hate and eradicate, and that the have no claim to any elevated cultures. We see this with Mike and his anti African bias even though I feel he is hard on Africans, because he cares and deeply wants them to elevate themselves. Its and divide and conquer tatic done to the people to keep them to busy fighting to realize that they all suffer from the system.

If the people realized just how duped they were, then the matrix collapse. If Blacks and Whites realzie they have been conditioned to hate each other from birth and that the fear of the system is an unified Black and White mass, they would put the guns down and be as one.

Wake Up.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Meroitic the word Nob, did not mean slave, it was used as an ethnonym for the Nob(a) or Nubian people.


Rilly claims what you are saying is not a problem, that in texts written in Greek the Nubians describe themselves with the meriotic word nob meaning slave or day laborer, so this word is also an ethnonym for the Nob(a) or Nubian people.


Example

It has been suggested that the meaning of "free" was adopted because, after the conquest of Gaul, only Franks were free of taxation. It is traditionally assumed that Frank comes from the Germanic word for "javelin" (such as in Old English franca or Old Norse frakka).There is also another theory that suggests that Frank comes from the Latin word francisca meaning ("throwing axe").[citation needed] Words in other Germanic languages meaning "bold" or "fierce", (Middle Dutch vrac, Old English frǣc and Old Norwegian frakkr), may also be significantThe name France comes from Latin Francia, which literally means "land of the Franks".

^^^ so the ethnonym is not just a made up name. It has a meaning and then is applied to people as an ethnonym and is descriptive

Is Claude Rilly right that Nubians in Greek texts called themselves slaves? I don't know


http://www.ityopis.org/Issues_files/ITYOPIS-I-Rilly.pdf

[PDF] Recent Research on Meroitic, the Ancient Language of Sudan


 -


wiki:

At one point, Kerma came very close to conquering Egypt. Egypt suffered a serious defeat at the hands of the Kushites.According to Davies, head of the joint British Museum and Egyptian archaeological team, the attack was so devastating that if the Kerma forces chose to stay and occupy Egypt, they might have eliminated it for good and brought the nation to extinction. When Egyptian power revived under the New Kingdom (c. 1532–1070 BC) they began to expand further southwards. The Egyptians destroyed Kerma's kingdom and capitol and expanded the Egyptian empire to the Fourth Cataract. By the end of the reign of Thutmose I (1520 BC), all of northern Nubia had been annexed. The Egyptians built a new administrative center at Napata, and used the area to produce gold. The Nubian gold production made Egypt a prime source of the precious metal in the Middle East. The primitive working conditions for the slaves are recorded by Diodorus Siculus who saw some of the mines at a later time. One of the oldest maps known is of a gold mine in Nubia, the Turin Papyrus Map dating to about 1160 BC.

_________________________________


http://www.ancientsudan.org/dailylife_04_trade.htm


Gold was also a natural mineral the Kushites were known for in the ancient world. The Egyptians in the New Kingdom benefited from the conquest of Kush, mainly by excavating gold sites there. New Kingdom Egyptian paintings and relieves depict Kushites presenting gold as tribute to the Egyptian pharaohs. Wiring in the first century CE, Diodorus writes that in Meroe, "there are mines of gold, silver, iron and brass, besides abundance of ebony and all sorts of precious stones.”(Diodorus i. 33).
It has been recorded in ancient sources that the Kushite pharaohs never applied the death sentence; convicts in Kush were rather sent to work in gold mines. In the Meroitic period the Ptolemies and later the Romans heavily excavated the Nubian Desert for gold.5 There are no evidence on whether the Ptolemies and the Romans paid taxes to the Kushites to excavate in the gold sites there.During the Napatan-Meroitic period, the Kushites also exported slaves from the sub-Sahara to other regions.6 By the sixth century CE, the Kushites have exanded their trade routes with the east. Kush exported to Arabia dates,7 slaves,8 and until date-wine.9

______________________________

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3A*.html#12

DIODORUS SICULUS

LIBRARY OF HISTORY
Book III
12/1

12 1 At the extremity of Egypt and in the contiguous territory of both Arabia and Ethiopia there lies a region which contains many large gold mines, where the gold is secured in great quantities with much suffering and at great expense.21 For the earth is naturally black and contains seams and veins of a marble22 which is unusually white and in brilliancy surpasses everything else which shines brightly by its nature, and here the overseers of the labour in the mines work recover the gold with the aid of a multitude of workers. 2 For the kings of Egypt gather together and condemn to the mining of the gold such as have been found guilty of some crime and captives of war, as well as those who have been accused unjustly and thrown into prison because of their anger, and not only such persons but occasionally all their relatives as well, by this means not only p117inflicting punishment upon those found guilty but also securing at the same time great revenues from their labours. 3 And those who have been condemned in this way — and they are a great multitude and are all bound in chains — work at their task unceasingly both by day and throughout the entire night, enjoying no respite and being carefully cut off from any means of escape; since guards of foreign soldiers who speak a language different from theirs stand watch over them, so that not a man, either by conversation or by some contact of a friendly nature, is able to corrupt one of his keepers. 4 The gold-bearing earth23 which is hardest they first burn with a hot fire, and when they have crumbled it in this way they continue the working of it by hand; and the soft rock which can yield to moderate effort is crushed with a sledge by myriads of unfortunate wretches. 5 And the entire operations are in charge of a skilled worker who distinguishes the stone24 and points it out to the labourers; and of those who are assigned to this unfortunate task the physically strongest break the quartz-rock25 with iron hammers, applying no skill to the task, but only force, and cutting tunnels through the stone, not in a straight line but wherever the seam of gleaming rock may lead. 6 Now these men, working in darkness as they do because of the bending and winding of the passages, carry lamps bound on their foreheads; and since p119much of the time they change the position of their bodies to follow the particular character26 of the stone they throw the blocks, as they cut them out, on the ground; and at this task they labour without ceasing beneath the sternness and blows of an overseer.

13 1 The boys there who have not yet come to maturity, entering through the tunnels into the galleries formed by the removal of the rock, laboriously gather up the rock as it is cast down piece by piece and carry it out into the open to the place outside the entrance. Then those who are above27 thirty years of age take this quarried stone from them and with iron pestles pound a specified amount of it in stone mortars, until they have worked it down to the size of a vetch. 2 Thereupon the women and older men receive from them the rock of this size and cast it into mills of which a number stand there in a row, and taking their places in groups of two or three at the spoke or handle of each mill they grind it until they have worked down the amount given them to the consistency of the finest flour. And since no opportunity is afforded any of them to care for his body and they have no garment to cover their shame, no man can look upon unfortunate wretches without feeling pity for them because of the exceeding hardships they suffer. 3 For no leniency or respite of any kind is given to any man who is sick, or maimed, or aged, or in the case of a woman for her weakness,28 but all without exception are compelled by blows to persevere in their labours, until through ill-treatment they die in the midst of their tortures. Consequently the poor unfortunates believe, p121because their punishment is so excessively severe, that the future will always be more terrible than the present and therefore look forward to death as more to be desired than life.


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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Meroitic the word Nob, did not mean slave, it was used as an ethnonym for the Nob(a) or Nubian people.


Rilly claims what you are saying is not a problem, that in texts written in Greek the Nubians describe themselves with the meriotic word nob meaning slave or day laborer, so this word is also an ethnonym for the Nob(a) or Nubian people.


[/i]

Think about what you wrote. Do you really believe the Nubians would call themselves slaves?

The Meroitic records make it clear they had kings and were powerful fighters. I did not see in any Meroitic text I read where they were subjugated by the Meroites. In fact according to Axumite records the Nubians helped conquer the Meroites.

 -

Did Rilly cite the Nubian document where he found the Nubians describing themselves as slaves.

You have to take much of what Rilly says about Meroitic with a grain of salt. He admits he can not read the script. Rilly believes it belongs to the Nilo-Saharan phylum and more accurately to a sub-branch termed “Northern East Sudanic” (NES), together with Nara, Nubian, Tama and Nyimang. He claims he has been possible to reconstruct parts of the remote history of the Proto-NES speakers, who were originally cattle-herders nomadising in the Wadi Howar reach, between Kordofan and Darfur.

The reconstruction of Proto-NES is well and good, but the Meroites did not speak Nubian. In fact as I have pointed out on numerous occasions the Nubians were their enemies.

I outline in detail the Meroitic language in my book. Here you can find out how to read Meroitic inscriptions.

Meroitic Writing and Literature

 -


Meroitic Writing and Literature is divided into three parts. The first part of the book explains how I used the Kushana hypothesis to decipher the Meroitic script. It will outline the Classical literature that informed my decipherment of Meroitic and how Buddhists early settled in Upper Egypt and the Meroitic Empire and spread their religion and writing system: Tocharian.

In Part two we outline the grammar of Meroitic. It will provide readers with a detailed overview of the Meroitic language and its grammar.

Part Three provides translations of key Meroitic text. These texts provide knowledge of the lifeway’s of the Meroites especially their religion and some historical data.

The Meroitic literature discussed in this book include : The Inscriptions of Tanyidamani; The Meroitic Chamber Inscription of Philae; and Meroitic Evidence for a Blemmy Empire in the Dodekaschoinas. These text were chosen because they include text written in archaic Meroitic (Tanyidemani), and other text written in late Meroitic.

Meroitic Writing and Literature, is the first account of the Meroitic language and literature. It will allow readers the opportunity to learn how to read/decipher Meroitic text, while acquiring an intimate knowledge of the Meroites as individuals.

Createspace e-Store: https://www.createspace.com/4241733

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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According to Rilly, the etymology of the cognate word 'nob'/'log' from the common North-Eastern Sudanic roots means silt, clay, fertile soils. The word is still used today in that sense in the modern Nara, Nyama, Taman people. All fellow North-Eastern Sudanic (NES) speakers. The only two NES languages discussed by Rilly using "nogu/nob" as slave are the Nobiin language and the Meroitic language (according to him). As a side note, in AEians the word with the sound 'nub', meant gold.

It's important to understand again that Kushite people and people who are known as Nubian (modern Nubian) are not the same people. Modern Nubians, as they are called by other people, are "recent" migrants who settled along the Nile after having help in the destruction of the Kushite empires along with the Axumites. Before that time, they were nomadic people living in the west of the Sudanese Nile (all according to Rilly). Even at that time, they they were different people than the Kushite. The same way Igbo and Yoruba are different people with their own language despite being linked together through their common Benue-Congo language root. Kushite and "Nubians" spoke different languages and lived differently (settled farmers-cattle raiser vs nomadic people). According to Riley "Nubians" called themselves 'Magur'/'Magi' people in the past. Kushite did called themselves Kush (according to Rilly again). King Kashta is an example (kings have many names). Kashta was also the personal name of many people in the Kushite kingdoms.

Nubian/Murgi people were nomadic people even after the establishment of agriculture along the Nile so its possible a term related to the soil came to mean slaves for them (other explanations are possible like foreign influence).

But Kushtic people, as Ancient Egyptians, were themselves farmers (as well as raising cattle, horses, hunting, etc). So I don't think it's plausible they would use the proto-NES cognate word for clay/fertile soils to mean slaves. There's about a 1000 Meroitic texts and most of them have not been translated yet, so Rilly put forward is theory on very flimsy ground (although I will investigate it further). I don't know on what basis he made those claims (as the evidence were not stipulated in any of his works I read yet, but maybe he confuses the fact that all the land belong to the King and that all people, like in Ancient Egypt, and most of Africa, are his servants. Or simply extrapolate too much on the word workers/laborers. This warrant further investigation)

While modern Nubian Nobiin speakers (who don't call themselves Nubians as far as I know, some call themselves Murgi) may consider the cognate word Nogu/Nob to mean slave, I have hard time believing the same for Meroitic people. The cognate term nob (log in proto-NES) in most other related NES language means silt/clay/fertile soils according to Rilly. It's ridiculous that any people in Ancient Greek times would call themselves slave. If any people in Ancient Greek times would call themselves "Nob" or a related word it would probably mean something like "People of the soil" aka the indigenous/current inhabitant of the land. That is if the Greek text is right (since nobody today call themselves Nubian as far as I know). Modern Nara, Nyama, Taman people still use the cognate word in that sense (earth, clay, soil) according to Rilly (as we can see in the google book - The Meroitic Language and Writing System posted by the lioness above). Unfortunatley Rilly in his english books doesn't provides any proof of (any) of his claims which I'm sure are exposed in his other french books which should be investigated.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]

Strabo's
Geography

Book XVII

The lower parts of the country on each side Meroe,
along the Nile towards the Red Sea,
are occupied by Megabari and Blemmyes,
who are subject to the Ethiopians,
and border upon the Egyptians;
about the sea are Troglodytae.
The Troglodytae, in the latitude of Meroe,
are distant ten or twelve days' journey from the Nile.
On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubians [Nubians] in Libya, a populous nation.
They begin [220] from Meroe,
and extend as far as the bends (of the river).
They are not subject to the Ethiopians,
but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.


The Nubians described were likely the Noba who originated west of the Nile, yet the term 'Nubian' as used by the Romans predates the appearance of the people.

quote:
 -
The I agree with the part that the term 'Nubia' might have something to do with agricultural labor since the riverine Nubians were long an agricultural people but I disagree with the slave etymology especially since nuba/noba and noga are very different words with the 'g' being phonetically very different from 'b'.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^^As usual other bullshit from this stupid racist.

According to Rilly, modern people called Nubians (some call themselves Murgi) originate in the West of the Sudanese Nile:

quote:
This kingdom [Kingdom of Meroe] lasted until its destruction around AD 350 under the combined strokes of the Nubian tribes from the west and the Axumite kings from the east.
Which we can read here: http://www.ityopis.org/Issues_files/ITYOPIS-I-Rilly.pdf

As well as here:
quote:
quote:
The movements of the Proto-Nubians, the third group of the Eastern branch, are more difficult to reconstruct. As argued elsewhere (Rilly 2008), it is not plausible that they ever reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD. On the other hand, the chronology of phonetics changes in the Nubian languages indicates that the split in the Nubian groups did not occur much prior to this date. The proximity of proto-Nubian and Meroitic , despite two millennia of separation, and Meroitic's conservative character in relation to proto-NES are such that they presuppose a relatively isolated position during a long period. The phonology of proto-Nubian, for instance, was not affected by influences that changed Meroitic or Nyimang phonology. It is likely that the Proto-Nubians were nomads wandering between still hospitable zones until the first millennium BC. Some portion of the middle part of Wadi Howar or the valley of Gebel Tageru may have served that purpose.

From the book The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt

It's written clearly: Nubian people (proto-Nubian) didn't reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Ahmanutcase The Ultimate:

Calm down Son of Ra and Djehuti. I know you are both fellow undercover racists but there's no need for any of this.

I am calm, I merely replied to your off-the-rail attack at me for using the word 'Nubian'. As for what you "know" is of course a lie since obviously I am not a racist and as a veteran poster on this forum for years making contributions to the knowledge of Egypt and other African civilizations everyone in here knows it. But you go ahead and keep repeating that lie to yourself because I and others choose to disagree with you. LOL [Big Grin]

quote:
It's obviously the part after "Either way Nubia again...", that needs to be demonstrated with Ancient Egyptian words and text.
How so, when I never said Nubian was an Egyptian word?? As Son of Ra says, you have no reading comprehension or are just a plain psychopath with your false accusations of us as "racists".

quote:
My question to Dhehuti was not a trick question. It's a completely legitimage question that can be answered directly.
I already answered it, fool.

quote:
Then of course, it opens up to other line of analysis/inquiries to see in what context each words appears in Ancient Egyptian literature.

It's important because many egyptologists in books and various works translate everything related to the people and land south of Ancient Egypt as "Nubia" including the word Kush (Ksh) (even if Nubia is not even an Ancient Egyptian word).

And again even the Egyptians themselves never used 'Egypt' or 'Egyptian' yet YOU like the hypocrite you are continue to use those terms while chastising me about using 'Nubian'!

How about this, the Kemuwi or Kemetawi (Egyptians) used the term Ta Nehesi for the land we call 'Nubia' and its inhabitants Nehesi though the Kemuwi specified different ethnicities like Kesh (Kush), Irem, Mentenu, Iuntu, etc.

So get your crazy ass off of my nuts already! [Embarrassed]

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^ If I were you I would shut up for your own good. You're only shaming yourself every time you post and yet again. You don't even have the intellectual capacity to understand my question directed to you which was not a trick question. Swenet/Anglo-Pyramidalogist (Cass) may be fellow racist veterans like you but at least they had the intellectual capacity to argument their points with some twisted and dishonest logic from the pseudo-science era of the dynastic/hamitic race myth. You're just an idiot. At least, you don't pretend to be African, but you still pretend to be something you're not. Why the cloak and dagger?
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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by Ahmanutcase The Ultimate:

^^^As usual other bullshit from this stupid racist.

The only one spouting bullshit is YOU as usual calling me stupid and racist. LOL

quote:
According to Rilly, modern people called Nubians (some call themselves Murgi) originate in the West of the Sudanese Nile:

quote:
This kingdom [Kingdom of Meroe] lasted until its destruction around AD 350 under the combined strokes of the Nubian tribes from the west and the Axumite kings from the east.
Which we can read here: http://www.ityopis.org/Issues_files/ITYOPIS-I-Rilly.pdf

As well as here:
quote:
quote:
The movements of the Proto-Nubians, the third group of the Eastern branch, are more difficult to reconstruct. As argued elsewhere (Rilly 2008), it is not plausible that they ever reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD. On the other hand, the chronology of phonetics changes in the Nubian languages indicates that the split in the Nubian groups did not occur much prior to this date. The proximity of proto-Nubian and Meroitic , despite two millennia of separation, and Meroitic's conservative character in relation to proto-NES are such that they presuppose a relatively isolated position during a long period. The phonology of proto-Nubian, for instance, was not affected by influences that changed Meroitic or Nyimang phonology. It is likely that the Proto-Nubians were nomads wandering between still hospitable zones until the first millennium BC. Some portion of the middle part of Wadi Howar or the valley of Gebel Tageru may have served that purpose.

From the book The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt

It's written clearly: Nubian people (proto-Nubian) didn't reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD

[Eek!]

ROTFLMAO
 -

Wow. Son of Ra is correct, your reading comprehension is non-existent. Where in my post that you responded to do I say anything contrary??! In fact I clearly stated that the Noba i.e. ancestors of modern Nubians originated west, so what are you arguing about?!!

 -

It's obvious that the more you post, the more idiotic and deranged you appear. And since there is no point in arguing with someone who's lost his faculties I will no longer respond to you.

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Son of Ra
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@Djehuti

What I noticed is that his poor reading comprehensions is what always gets him in trouble. Always. He picks arguments with many people for no reason due to not even understanding the context of what they post. I've realized that from him ever since I joined this site. Either that or he's trolling.

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
According to Rilly, the etymology of the cognate word 'nob'/'log' from the common North-Eastern Sudanic roots means silt, clay, fertile soils. The word is still used today in that sense in the modern Nara, Nyama, Taman people. All fellow North-Eastern Sudanic (NES) speakers. The only two NES languages discussed by Rilly using "nogu/nob" as slave are the Nobiin language and the Meroitic language (according to him). As a side note, in AEians the word with the sound 'nub', meant gold.

It's important to understand again that Kushite people and people who are known as Nubian (modern Nubian) are not the same people. Modern Nubians, as they are called by other people, are "recent" migrants who settled along the Nile after having help in the destruction of the Kushite empires along with the Axumites. Before that time, they were nomadic people living in the west of the Sudanese Nile (all according to Rilly). Even at that time, they they were different people than the Kushite. The same way Igbo and Yoruba are different people with their own language despite being linked together through their common Benue-Congo language root. Kushite and "Nubians" spoke different languages and lived differently (settled farmers-cattle raiser vs nomadic people). According to Riley "Nubians" called themselves 'Magur'/'Magi' people in the past. Kushite did called themselves Kush (according to Rilly again). King Kashta is an example (kings have many names). Kashta was also the personal name of many people in the Kushite kingdoms.

Nubian/Murgi people were nomadic people even after the establishment of agriculture along the Nile so its possible a term related to the soil came to mean slaves for them (other explanations are possible like foreign influence).

But Kushtic people, as Ancient Egyptians, were themselves farmers (as well as raisin cattle, horses, hunting, etc). So I don't think it's plausible they would use the proto-NES cognate word for clay/fertile soils to mean slaves. There's about a 1000 Meroitic texts and most of them have not been translated yet, so Rilly put forward is theory on very flimsy ground (although I will investigate it further). I don't know on what basis he made those claims (as the evidence were not stipulated in any of his works I read yet, but maybe he confuses the fact that all the land belong to the King and that all people, like in Ancient Egypt, and most of Africa, are his servants. Or simply extrapolate too much on the word workers/laborers. This warrant further investigation)

While modern Nubian Nobiin speakers (who don't call themselves Nubians as far as I know, some call themselves Murgi) may consider the cognate word Nogu/Nob to mean slave, I have hard time believing the same for Meroitic people. The cognate term nob (log in proto-NES) in most other related NES language means silt/clay/fertile soils according to Rilly. It's ridiculous that any people in Ancient Greek times would call themselves slave. If any people in Ancient Greek times would call themselves "Nob" or a related word it would probably mean something like "People of the soil" aka the indigenous/current inhabitant of the land. That is if the Greek text is right (since nobody today call themselves Nubian as far as I know). Modern Nara, Nyama, Taman people still use the cognate word in that sense (earth, clay, soil) according to Rilly (as we can see in the google book - The Meroitic Language and Writing System posted by the lioness above). Unfortunatley Rilly in his english books doesn't provides any proof of (any) of his claims which I'm sure are exposed in his other french books which should be investigated.

I have read his books and articles he has no proof because he can not read Meroitic.

Moreover, there is no way you can read an ancient language using a Proto-Language. That is because a proto-language is a theorectical assumption which can never be proven because we don't have documented examples of the language to confirm our reconstructions.

.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

In fact I clearly stated that the Noba i.e. ancestors of modern Nubians originated west, so what are you arguing about?!!

Ok, my mistake, I misread you on that one.
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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Moreover, there is no way you can read an ancient language using a Proto-Language. That is because a proto-language is a theorectical assumption which can never be proven because we don't have documented examples of the language to confirm our reconstructions.

.

I don't know why you keep saying this. It seems very logical to try to read an ancient language we don't know by using modern descendant languages from the same family (proto-NES in this case).

For example, if all descendant proto-NES languages have the word ita (or a cognate word to ita) meaning sky, it's highly possible that if you find the word ita in Meroitic it may also means sky too. The analysis of the context where the word ita appears in meroitic text may help determine if ita also means sky in Meroitic. Is that what you say is impossible to do? It seems very logical and possible to me.

I didn't read Rilly's french book, but his english book and papers certainly didn't show, using Meroitic text, how he arrives to his conclusions regarding the definition of words. He just state them as facts stipulating his french books goes in more depth.

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Child Of The KING:
Let me post that I feel that Nubian is an term used by Euros as an LIE about the original egtyptians.

Modern Nubians are in fact Egyptians, and South Sudnaese are actually the Nubians of Ancient Egypt.

Why the cover up?? Because Euros wanted to explain away why Egupt had an popualation that was Clearly Black African. So they claimed the people Nubians were actually apart of an different kingdom. The Shift is evident in the meaning and to think that Lower Nubia is in Egypt is just 1 way. To me personally, Nubians are remnants of Egyptians who stayed in the country after being overrun by Outsiders.

The Ancestors of the Dinka, nuer Shilluk etc created Kush and I feel that this is evident since Egyptians majority painted Nubians Coal Black

I agree that so-called modern Nubians are ethnically distinct from the ancient Kushite civilization, but I wouldn't say they are surviving Kemetics either. They speak a language inherited from Saharan nomads west of the Nile, not anything like the ancient Egyptian language. They probably do resemble AE in phenotype, but such a suite of physical traits would have been common throughout the Eastern Sahara.

As for whether ancient Kushites physically resembled today's South Sudanese, honestly I haven't heard of any osteological analyses that even used South Sudanese samples, let alone in comparison with ancient Egyptian or Kushite remains. We do know there was a lot of phenotypical overlap between ancient Egyptians and Kushites (for example, Kushites from Kerma were found to be practically indistinguishable for Naqadan Egyptians in Keita's 1990 study), and a recent analysis on remains from way down in Khartoum showed a similar dental pattern to historical Egypto-Nubians as far back as the pre-Mesolithic time frame. Ergo I'm no longer sold on the widespread notion that ancient Egyptians and Kushites ever looked more than subtly different, certain artistic portrayals notwithstanding.

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the lioness,
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http://books.google.com/books?id=i54rPFeGKewC&pg=PA1&dq=%22László+Török+%22%22++term+Nubia%22&hl=en&

Der Nahe und Mittlere Osten ( The Near and Middle East)
By László Török

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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Moreover, there is no way you can read an ancient language using a Proto-Language. That is because a proto-language is a theorectical assumption which can never be proven because we don't have documented examples of the language to confirm our reconstructions.

.

I don't know why you keep saying this. It seems very logical to try to read an ancient language we don't know by using modern descendant languages from the same family (proto-NES in this case).

For example, if all descendant proto-NES languages have the word ita (or a cognate word to ita) meaning sky, it's highly possible that if you find the word ita in Meroitic it may also means sky too. The analysis of the context where the word ita appears in meroitic text may help determine if ita also means sky in Meroitic. Is that what you say is impossible to do? It seems very logical and possible to me.

I didn't read Rilly's french book, but his english book and papers certainly didn't show, using Meroitic text, how he arrives to his conclusions regarding the definition of words. He just state them as facts stipulating his french books goes in more depth.

Please show one ancient language deciphered using a proto-language.

You wrote

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
From the book The Meroitic Language and Writing System By Rilly and Voogt

It's written clearly: Nubian people (proto-Nubian) didn't reached the Nile prior to the end of the Meroitic Kingdom in the third century AD

Your theory fails on three points. Firstly, it has been proven repeatedly that Meroitic and Nubian are not related. Secondly, Meroites were writing Meroitic documents for 400 years before Nubians came into the region. Finally, Nubians never joined the Meroite Nation.

Please denote any ancient language deciphered using a proto-language.

.

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quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...



Here some threads/info about past chat on this.


Topic: The Ancient Nubia Military Thread:What was the military power of Ancient Nubia?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008743;p=1


Topic: Darfur: The Arabs and their "Authentic" Genealogy
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004296


Topic: Nubian aDNA: what the hell is stopping ES members from claiming CL Fox 1997?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008387;p=1#000000


By the way i think i should bump these threads as well,because there is a lot of good info posted about the kushites,noba,modern nubians etc...

I posted some info on some books too about kush etc..in some threads,but i will have take time to find those.

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why bump a thread if you can link it?
I do it occasionally but it generally disrupts the flow of the forum.
Often nobody replies to it
It simply goes to the top and then sinks again
It's better to have a new reply to the content of the thread which bumps it up, my opinion

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There is list of books about kush and the later periods too in this other forum.


Egypt's 25th dynasty - the black pharaohs

http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/67484-egypt-s-25th-dynasty-black-pharaohs.html#post1710642


and

Topic: Has anyone read the medieval kingdoms of nubia?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=008748

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Why is their so much divison and hate spewed at each other over nonsense?

Posters should be able to be civil with one another without the constant back and forth insult war.

We are all learners on these forums. Why not discuss without the disparaging insults?

While I aint really knowledgable on Kush or merowe, the topic is an fundamental need since to understand the people south of Egypt, is to understand AE better.

Like I posted before Kushites were maybe not the people reagrded as Modern nubians, but are in fact probably the South Sudanese people.


Also found this website that Talks about Ancient Kush or Ethiopia:


quote:
History of Early Ethiopia or Kush (13,000-7500 BC)

The region known as Kush has been inhabited for several millennia. Royal Ontario Museum and University of Khartoum researchers found a "tool workshop" south of Dongola, Sudan with thousands of paleolithic axes on rows of stones, dating back 70,000 years. As early as 13,000 BC, ceremonial burial practices were taking place at Jebel Sahaba and Wadi Halfa in the northern part of modern-day Sudan (known to archaeologists as the "Qadan" period, 13,000-8,000 BC). At the Toshka site in modern-day "Lower Nubia," archaeologists have uncovered tombs where domesticated wild cattle were placed above human remains, indicative of the use of cattle in a ceremonial fashion. Circular tomb walls with above-ground mounds are further evidence of the beginnings of ceremonial burials.

At other sites nearby, we can see the development of Ethiopian (better known as "Egyptian") civilization. At the Kadruka cemetery, spouted vessels were found, and the tombs at El Gaba were filled with jewelry, pottery, ostrich feathers, headrests, facial painting, etc.--all of which were present in "dynastic Egypt," and are still used today amongst different peoples of modern-day Ethiopia. The neolithic Sabu rock paintings even depict dynastic Egyptian-style boats.

Just west of the city of Kerma lies the site of Busharia, where shards of pottery dating from 8000 to 9000 BC have been found. A nearby discovery at El-Barga shed light on foundations of round buildings, graves and pottery shards from 7,500 BC.

Therefore Kushitic civilization began on the banks of the Nile over 15,000 years ago and was settled at least 55,000 years prior.

Furthermore, based on the traditions of the first settlers and the artifacts found in this region, Kushitic civilization gave birth to that of so-called "Egypt" (see also: Nile Valley Civilization).


quote:
Ethiopia in Greek History (800 BC-200 AD).

Few other nations are mentioned in ancient European literature as much as Ethiopia, and even fewer as highly esteemed. Ethiopians are first mentioned in the oldest of Greek texts, Homer's Iliad (circa 800 BC), as a place frequented by the Greek gods. Homer states, "...twelve for Jupiter's stay with the Ethiopians, at whose return Thetis prefers her petition" and "Zeus is at Ocean's river with Ethiopians, feasting, he and all the heaven-dwellers."

In Homer's Odyssey (c. 800 BC), Poseiden also spends time in Ethiopia: "But Poseidon, the earthquake lord, making his return from Ethiopia where he had visited for a celebration in his honor..."

Homer also tells us that an Ethiopian ruled Troy and Arabia:

"Tithonus was the son of Laomedon, king of Troy and the Nymph Strymo. He was an extremely handsome youth, and when Eos (Dawn) first saw him, she fell in love with him and brought him to her palace by the stream of Ocean in Ethiopia. They had two children, Memnon and Emathion. Emathion became a king of Arabia...Memnon took a force of Ethiopians to Troy and died while fighting the Greeks"


Herodotus (Histories, Book II, c. 440 BC) informs us that Ethiopians also jointly ruled over the Siwa Oasis:

"Ammonians [Siwa Owasis], who are a joint colony of Egyptians and Ethiopians, speaking a language between the two..."

quote:
Herodotus describes their physical characteristics and provides great detail about the traditions of Ethiopians in his era, stating,

"...and the men are taller, handsomer, and longer lived than anywhere else. The Ethiopians were clothed in the skins of leopards and lions, and had long bows made of the stem of the palm-leaf, not less than four cubits in length. On these they laid short arrows made of reed, and armed at the tip, not with iron, but with a piece of stone, sharpened to a point, of the kind used in engraving seals. They carried likewise spears, the head of which was the sharpened horn of an antelope; and in addition they had knotted clubs. When they went into battle they painted their bodies, half with chalk, and half with vermilion... and

http://www.taneter.org/ethiopia.html


quote:
Development of Kush

As Nubia to the south sought separation from Egypt and as Asian invasions of Northeast Alkebu-lan (Africa) increased, Egypt lost control of the Sudan. From 1000 BCE, Nubians began to build the independent state called Kush. Although the Kushites had been under the control of Egypt for more than 500 years, they eventually created their own identity. From 730 to 656, Kush invaded and controlled Egypt led by Pianki. Although Western writers give Pianki's successor Shabaka credit for establishing Kemet's 25th Dynasty, Pianki was the first true Kushite pharaoh of this era. The succeeding Nubian rulers were Taharqa and Tanutamon (Williams 115). Around 661, invading Assyrians drove Kush out of Lower Egypt. Even though Nubia still controlled Upper Egypt, the leaders decided to move their permanent headquarters south to the cities of Napata and Meroe.

Their decision to move was strategic for three reasons. First, the land in the Ethiopian region was rich in both hardwood timber and iron ore. Hardwood timber was the key ingredient for the chemical process needed to smelt iron, which separated the chemically infused iron from the rock. Kush produced a class of skilled iron workers to make tools, household products, jewelry and weapons. They learned from their experiences in Egypt that it was imperative to construct a high level iron industry featuring the production of strong and reliable defense weapons. As a result, Kush became the leading iron producing nation in the world. Second, rainfall was plentiful on the Ethiopian plains, which was excellent for farming and grazing animals. Third, the location made trading across the Red Sea with India and China easier (Shillington 40).
Kushite Culture

Sometimes referred to as Meroites, Kushites developed their own language and writing system that replaced Egyptian language and Hieroglyphics. They created a type of alphabetic script around 653 BCE. It was not as sophisticated as the sign and symbol dominated Hieroglyphics. However, according to Chancellor Williams, Kushite writing featured "23 characters or letters with 17 consonants, 4 vowels and 2 signs of the syllable" (127). Even though Kushite writing was not as complicated to use as Hieroglyphics was, linguists today have been unable to decipher it.

Kush had fabulous artistic development in other areas, including improvement on mathematical systems, the creation of various types of sculptures as well as an extraordinary amount of engravings, drawings and paintings. The artists often depicted the representation of their God, Apedemek, as a human with the head of a lion (Shillington 42). Kush’s artists created intricately crafted, finely painted luxury pottery for decoration and affect. In addition, they made beautifully designed architectural edifices, including some structures that resembled pyramids.

https://suite.io/william-cook/2j1a2r1


KUSH, THE JEWEL OF NUBIA
Reconnecting the Root System of African Civilization

by Miriam Ma'at-Ka-Re Monges

 -
http://www.africaworldpressbooks.com/servlet/Detail?no=694


quote:
“Those piles of ruins which you see in that narrow valley watered by the Nile, are the remains of opulent cities, the pride of the ancient kingdom of Ethiopia. … There a people, now forgotten, discovered while others were yet barbarians, the elements of the arts and sciences. A race of men now rejected from society for their sable skin and frizzled hair, founded on the study of the laws of nature, those civil and religious systems which still govern the universe.” Count Volney
quote:
Now that we have straightened out ourselves on the issue of the classification of races, we may property turn to the main subject matter of this essay, i.e., the ancient Ethiopians and their widespread influence on the early history of civilization. In discussing the origin of civilization in the ancient Near East, Professor Charles Seignobos in his History of Ancient Civilization, notes that the first civilized inhabitants of the Nile and Tigris-Euphrates valleys, were a dark-skinned people with short hair and prominent lips; and that they are referred to by some scholars as Cushites (Ethiopians), and as Hamites by others. This ancient civilization of the Cushites, out of which the earliest cultures of Egypt and Mesopotamia grew, was not confined to the Near East. Traces of it have been found all over the world. Dr. W. J. Perry refers to it as the Archaic Civilization. Sir Grafton Elliot Smith terms it the Neolithic Heliolithic Culture of the Brunet-Browns. Mr. Wells alludes to this early civilization in his Outline of History, and dates its beginnings as far back as 15,000 years B.C. “This peculiar development of the Neolithic culture,” says Mr. Wells, “which Elliot Smith called the Heliolithic (sun-stone) culture, included many or all of the following odd practices: (1) Circumcision, (2) the queer custom of sending the father to bed when a child is born, known as Couvade, (3) the practice of Massage, (4) the making of Mummies, (5) Megalithic monuments (i.e. Stonehenge), (6) artificial deformation of the heads of the young by bandages, (7) Tattooing, (8) religious association of the Sun and the Serpent, and (9) the use of the symbol known as the Swastika for good luck. … Elliot Smith traces these associated practices in a sort of constellation all over this great Mediterranean / Indian Ocean-Pacific area. Where one occurs, most of the others occur. They link Brittany with Borneo and Peru. But this constellation of practices does not crop up in the primitive home of Nordic or Mongolian peoples, nor does it extend southward much beyond equatorial Africa. … The first civilizations in Egypt and the Euphrates-Tigris valley probably developed directly out of this widespread culture.” (Outline of History, pp. 141–143).
quote:
The traditions concerning Memnon are interesting as well as instructive. He was claimed as a king by the Ethiopians, and identified with the Pharaoh Amunoph or Amenhotep, by the Egyptians. A fine statue of him is located in the British Museum, in London. Charles Darwin makes a reference to this statue on his Descent of Man which is well worth reproducing: “When I looked at the statue of Amunoph III, I agreed with two officers of the establishment, both competent judges, that he had a strongly marked Negro type of features.” The features of Akhnaton (Amennhotep IV), are even more Negroid than those of his illustrious predecessor. That the earliest Egyptians were African Ethiopians (Nilotic Negroes), is obvious to all unbiased students of oriental history. Breasted’s claim that the early civilized inhabitants of the Nile Valley and Western Asia were members of a Great White Race, is utterly false, and is supported by no facts whatsoever. A similar racial bias is shown by Elliot Smith in his work, The Ancient Egyptians and Their Influence Upon the Civilization of Europe, p. 30, New York & London, 1911. “Not a few writers,” says he, “like the traveler Volney in the 18th century, have expressed the belief that the ancient Egyptians were Negroes, or at any rate strongly Negroid. In recent times even a writer so discriminating as Ripley usually is has given his adhesion to this view.” (The writers referred to here, are Count Volney, the French Orientalist and Professor William Z. Ripley, of Harvard University, an eminent American Anthropologist.) Professor Smith is convinced that these men are wrong, because he holds that there is a “profound gap that separates the Negro from the rest of mankind, including the Egyptian.” (Ancient Egyptians, p. 74.) Another English scholar, Philip Smith, is far more rational in discussing this point:

No people have bequeathed to us so many memorials of its form complexion and physiognomy as the Egyptians. … If we were left to form an opinion on the subject by the description of the Egyptians left by the Greek writers we should conclude that they were, if not Negroes, at least closely akin to the Negro race. That they were much darker in coloring than the neighboring Asiatics; that they had their frizzled either by nature or art; that their lips were thick and projecting, and their limbs slender, rests upon the authority of eye-witnesses who had traveled in the country and who could have had no motive to deceive. … The fullness of the lips seen in the Sphinx of the Pyramids and in the portraits of the kings is characteristic of the Negro. (The Ancient History of the East, pp. 25-26, London, 1881.)

We read of Memnon, King of Ethiopia, in Greek mythology, to be exact in Homer’s Iliad, where he leads an army of Elamites and Ethiopians to the assistance of King Priam in the Trojan War. His expedition is said to have started from the African Ethiopia and to have passed through Egypt on the way to Troy. According to Herodotus, Memnon was the founder of Susa, the chief city of the Elamites. “There were places called Memnonia,” asserts Professor Rawlinson, “supposed to have been built by him both in Egypt and at Susa; and there was a tribe called Memnones at Moroe. Memnon thus unites the eastern with the western Ethiopians, and the less we regard him as an historical personage the more must we view him as personifying the ethnic identity of the two races.” (Ancient Monarchies, Vol. I, Chap. 3.) The ancient peoples of Mesopotamia are sometimes called the Chaldeans, but this is inaccurate and confusing. Before the Chaldean rule in Mesopotamia, there were the empires of the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians and Assyrians. The earliest civilization of Mesopotamia was that of the Sumerians. They are designated in the Assyrio-Babylonian inscriptions as the black-heads or black-faced people, and they are shown on the monuments as beardless and with shaven heads. This easily distinguishes them from the Semitic Babylonians, who are shown with beards and long hair. From the myths and traditions of the Babylonians we learn that their culture came originally from the south. Sir Henry Rawlinson concluded from this and other evidence that the first civilized inhabitants of Sumer and Akkad were immigrants from the African Ethiopia. John D. Baldwin, the American Orientalist, on the other hand, claims that since ancient Arabia was also known as Ethiopia, they could have just as well come from that country. These theories are rejected by Dr. II. R. Hall, of the Dept. Of Egyptian & Assyrian Antiquities of the British Museum, who contends that Mesopotamia was civilized by a migration from India. “The ethnic type of the Sumerians, so strongly marked in their statues and reliefs,” says Dr. Hall, “was as different from those of the races which surrounded them as was their language from those of the Semites, Aryans, or others; they were decidedly Indian in type. The face-type of the average Indian of today is no doubt much the same as that of his Dravidian race ancestors thousands of years ago. … And it is to this Dravidian ethnic type of India that the ancient Sumerian bears most resemblance, so far as we can judge from his monuments. … And it is by no means improbable that the Sumerians were an Indian race which passed, certainly by land, perhaps also by sea, through Persia to the valley of the Two Rivers. It was in the Indian home (perhaps the Indus valley) that we suppose for them that their culture developed. … On the way they left the seeds of their culture in Elam. … There is little doubt that India must have been one of the earliest centers of human civilization, and it seems natural to suppose that the strange un-Semitic, un-Aryan people who came from the East to civilize the West were of Indian origin, especially when we see with our own eyes how very Indian the Sumerians were in type.” (The Ancient History of the Near East, pp. 173–174, London, 1916.) Hall is opposed in his theory of Sumerian origins by Dr. W. J. Perry, the great anthropologist, of the University of London. “The Sumerian stories or origins themselves tell a very different tale,” Perry points out, “for from their beginnings the Sumerians seem to have been in touch with Egypt. Some of their early texts mention Dilmun, Magan and Meluhha. … Dilmun was the first settlement that was made by the god Enki, who was the founder of Sumerian civilization. … Magan was famous among the Sumerians as a place whence they got diorite and copper, Meluhha as a place whence they got gold. Dilmun has been identified with some place or other in the Persian Gulf, perhaps the Bahrein Islands, perhaps a land on the eastern shore of the Gulf. … In a late inscription of the Assyrians it is said that Magan and Meluhha were the archaic names for Egypt and Ethiopia, the latter being the south-western part of Somaliand that lay opposite.” (The Growth of Civilization, pp. 60–61, 2nd Edition, Harmondsworth, Middlesex, England, 1937, Published by Penguin Books, Ltd.)

http://abundancechild.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/kushthe-origin-of-civilization-a-summary-of-various-perspectives/


^Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire Review


This is an Forum that discusses Egypt and Kush from an poster named Asante90 its a good read on just where this fight is now, You can really see the hate that whites have for the truth:

Sub Saharan origins for pharaohs (new DNA studies)
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=492254


According to Kushite (Nubian) beliefs, before creation, the world was all covered with water.[1] Then a mound of earth has risen out of the water. On top of this mound, Atum the first god on earth, was born. Atum then gave birth to Shu, the first man on earth, and Tefnut, the first woman goddess. Shu and Tefnu married and gave birth to Geb (the god of Earth) and Nut (god of the Skies).

Geb and Nut then were responsible for giving birth to the most important gods in Nubia, Osiris (god of the pharaohs) and Seth (god of devastation), and Isis (god of motherhood) and Nephthys (protector of the dead). Atum signified the concept of creation. Atum was also believed to have created the heavens and earth. He was portrayed as an old man and sometimes with a ram head in connection to Amon.

Re was the most publicly worshiped form of Atum, though the cult of Re emerged as a universal god. The symbol of Re is a sun disk, which is found to be pictured on chapels of pyramids as well as on temples.
http://www.africanbelief.com/

The Economic Importance of Nubia
By
Peter A. Piccione
© 1995. All rights reserved.
(from Joseph Schaffner Library Collection-Northwestern University Library http://www.library.nwu.edu/class/history/B94/)

-quote-
Exploitation by Egypt

Precious Metals and Stone. Egyptian interests in Nubia were always driven by economics. The one factor that chiefly characterized Egypt's relationship with Nubia through most of their history was exploitation. Nubia's most important resource for Egypt was precious metal, including gold and electrum. The gold mines of Nubia were located in certain valleys and mountains on either side of the Nile River, although the most important mining center was located in the Wadi Allaqi. That valley extended eastward into the mountains near Qubban (about 107 km. south of Elephantine). Nubia was also an important source of valuable hard stone and copper, both of which were necessary for Egypt's monumental building projects.

Trading in African Goods. Especially important for Egypt was that Nubia was also a corridor to central Africa and a point for the trans-shipment of exotic goods from that region, including: frankincense, myrrh, "green gold," ivory, ebony and other exotic woods, precious oils, resins and gums, panther and leopard skins, monkeys, dogs, giraffes, ostrich feathers and eggs, as well as pygmies (who became important to Egyptian religious rituals). In the Old Kingdom, the Egyptians regularly penetrated as far as the Second Cataract to barter for these products which were coming down through the upper Nile Valley (viz., the expeditions of Harkhuf, Hekayib, Mekhu and Sabni).

Manpower. Nubia was also an important source of manpower and labor for the Egyptians. The Palermo Stone records that early in the Fourth Dynasty, King Snefru led a military campaign into Nubia reputedly to crush a "revolt" there (the Egyptians considered all enemies--whether foreign or domestic--as "rebels" against the natural order). According to that text, he captured 200,000 head of cattle and 7,000 prisoners, all of whom were deported to Egypt as laborers on royal building projects. While some archaeologists argue that this campaign was limited to Lower Nubia, others note that the amount of 7,000 is rather high for a country that was fairly depopulated at the time. If the number was not inflated as royal propaganda, then Snefru could have penetrated into Upper Nubia as far as the Land of Yam and made his conquests there.
http://www.thenubian.net/nubold.php


http://www.nathanielturner.com/originofcivilizationfromthecushites.htm


This is an PDF OF nubia over 200 pages:


Introduction

The Nuba are a group of peoples who share a common geography in Sudan’s Southern Kordofan Province, known as Jibal al-Nuba or Nuba Mountains. The origins of most Nuba peoples are obscure, but there is no doubt that they are Africans. They arrived to the area from various directions and in the course of thousands of years. Today there are over fifty Nuba tribes, who speak as many different languages. Their combined number is estimated at 2.5 million people.

Until the Egyptian occupation of Sudan during the nineteenth century, most Nuba tribes lived relatively isolated. Contiguous events that shaped their history are the short but extremely violent rule of the Mahdi and his successor, and colonial rule by the British. Sudan took its independence in 1956 and since the 1960s the Nuba have been at odds with their successive National Governments. From 1987 to 2001 the Nuba Mountains were a battle zone in one of the civil wars that continue to devastate the country.

Traditionally the Nuba are farmers, but they are now employed in all segments of society. Since the beginning of the twentieth century, labour migrants have formed large Nuba communities in the large cities of North Sudan, like El Obeid, Khartoum and Port Sudan. In the 1980s and 1990s, the migrants were joined by hundreds of thousands of people who fled from violence. Since fighting in the Nuba Mountains was officially ended in January 2002, many refugees are returning home.

The following brief history aims at providing a broad perspective on the history of the Nuba. I have drawn from many different sources, and consulted scientists considered to be expert in their field for the more remote history. For the most recent history I have relied largely on interviews with Nuba who were closely involved in the developemts leading to the war in the Nuba Mountains and eventually the signing of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement in 2004.

I. The name Nuba

For centuries, the geographical area where the Nuba tribes live has been known as Dar Nuba: the land of the Nuba. The Tegali Kingdom (a truly Nuba kingdom indeed) was known on its own accord, as were several individual hills, but to the Arab people living around the area, the people of the Mountains were all Nuba. The Europeans, relying on the Arabs for information, used the same name.

Until very recently the Nuba people themselves would rather use their tribal name and many didn’t really consider themselves to be Nuba. In the words of Yousif Kuwa Mekki:

It is one of the funniest things: when you were in the Nuba Mountains, you just knew your own tribe. We for example were Miri. So if we were asked: "Who are the Nuba?" we would try to say: "The other tribes - but not us." Only when we came out of the Nuba Mountains, to the north or south or west, we learned that we are all Nuba.1

Please note the word ‘try’ here: linguist and anthropologist A.C. Stevenson noticed that:

Some of the more educated are also shy of applying the term to themselves, they tend to reserve it for those they think of as rustic hill-dwellers: for them ‘Nuba’ is the reverse of a status symbol.2

An old theory supposes a relationship between the word ‘Nuba’ and the Archaic Egyption nbw [nebu], meaning ‘gold’. In ancient times the land south of Egypt produced a lot of gold and so the people were gold diggers; or the ‘land of gold’ would be called Nubia (which it wasn’t) and its people Nuba… Brief: lot’s of charming nonsense.3 And then there is A.J. Arkell’s expalantion:

The name of the Nuba apparently comes, like so many other tribal names in the Sudan (Berti, Berta, Burgu, etc-) from a word in their own language which means 'slaves'.4

Surely there is a connection: the Nuba were harassed by slave raiders for many centuries and to the Arabs ‘Nuba’ became nearly synonymous with ‘slave’. But since Arkell doesn’t mention in which of the many Nuba languages their name means ‘slave’, there is little we can say about his theory, except quoting anthropologist S.F. Nadel:

I will not attempt to trace the origin of this name or to speculate on its original meaning. Suffice to say that in none of the groups which I have studied is the term Nuba indigenous […]5

II. Kingdoms on the Nile

1. Nubia
There are Nuba and there are Nubians and this is cause for great confusion. The Nuba are the different peoples living in the Nuba Mountains in Southern Kordofan. The Nubians today are a people who live along the Nile at the border between Egypt and Sudan. Many of them were relocated when the Nasser Dam was built. The Nubians are considered to be descendants of the great Nubian Kingdoms of Kush; Meroe; Nobatia; Makuria (Dongola) or Alodia (Alwa).

I will first run through Nubian history and then turn to the present insights on any connections between the Nuba of Kordofan and the Nubian Kingdoms.

The word ‘Nubia’ is used to describe the land along the Nile south of Egypt; divided into a ‘lower Nubia’ for the area between the first and the second cataract, and an ‘upper Nubia’ for the land beyond the second cataract. Historically however there never was any kingdom or tribe or civilisation by the name Nubia. The use of ‘Nubia’ for the region seems to originate with European atlas makers of the early renaissance who drew maps based on the work of the astrologist and geographer Claudius Ptolemaeus (90-168 AD).6

The earliest Egyptian kings (pre-dynastic and those of the first dynasties) referred to the people to their south as Ta Seti or ‘people of the bow’, for their skill as archers. The Ta Seti were well organised, and their civilisation was not unlike that of the first Egyptians. They disappeared however.

By the Sixth Dynasty (ca. 2323-2150 BC), Egyptian references to Wawat, Irtjet, and Setju seem to identify different small kingdoms in Lower Nubia. They also mention Yam, a kingdom in upper Nubia. There was trade between Yam and Egypt.

While the Middle Kingdom replaced the Old Kingdom in Egypt (ca. 2134-2040 BC), political changes also took place in Upper Nubia. ‘Yam’ disappeared from Egyptian texts and was replaced by Kush, which the Egyptians described as ‘vile’ or ‘contemptible’. Kush became a major power in the south and it took over Lower Nubia around 1700 BC.

Chances turned again and the Egyptians of the New Kingdom (c.1532-1070 BC) crushed the Kush kingdom and its capital Kerma. By the end of the reign of Thutmose I in 1520 BC, all of Upper Nubia had been annexed. The Egyptians built a new administrative and religious centre at Napata; the Nubian elite adopted the worship of Egyptian gods and the hieroglyphic writing system. This way a lot of the ancient Egyptian culture was kept alive for many centuries while the power of Egypt slowly declined.

By 800 BC Egypt had fragmented into rival states, but in 747 BC the Kushite king Piankhy (Piyi) marched north from his capital at Napata and reunified Egypt. Kushite kings ruled both Nubia and Egypt until the invasion of an Assyrian army in 667 BC. The Nubian king fled back to Napata and was defeated decisively in 664 BC.

In 656 BC Psamtik I, founder of the 26th Saite Dynasty, reunited Egypt. In 591 BC his successor Psamtik II invaded Kush and sacked and burned Napata. The kings of Kush moved their capital to Meroë, where they continued to build temples to Nubian and Egyptian gods. The kings were buried in pyramid tombs. Meroë developed a new script and began to write in the Meroitic language, which has yet to be fully deciphered.

Alexander the Great conquered Egypt in 332 BC. His empire was short lived and Egypt once again became a kingdom, under the Ptolemy Dynasty (306-30 BC). The Ptolemies were of Greek descent and in official records the people to the south are now referred to as Aethiopians: Greek for ‘burned faces’. This name, given to them by the first great historian Herodotus, was kept by the Romans, who took control over Egypt in 30 BC.

During the reign of the Ptolemies, Meroe prospered. The initial relationship with the Romans wasn’t that good. According to geographer Strabo (63 BC-24 AD), in 24 BC:

[the Aethiopians] attacked the Thebaďs and the garrison of the three cohorts at [Aswan], and by an unexpected onset took [Aswan] and Elephantine and Philae, and enslaved the inhabitants, and also pulled down the statues of Caesar.7

In 23 BC the Roman governor of Egypt, Petronius,

first compelled them to flee to Pselchis, an Ethiopian city, and sent ambassadors demanding the return of what they had taken, and the reasons why they had begun the war.

The Aethiopians didn’t respond, so in 22 BC Petronius attacked them at Pselchis. Defeating the Aethiopians there, he advanced to Premnis. He took the city and continued to the capital of the Aethiopians at Napata, which he sacked. After some more hostilities, the Aethiopians and the Romans came to a peace agreement, and trade between them flourished for several centuries.

Before turning to the Nuba, I want to stress once more that wherever Nubia is mentioned, we must remember that there are no historic sources from antiquity that use this name. For the word Nuba, it’s a different story.

http://www.occasionalwitness.com/content/nuba/01History01.htm


http://www.centerformaat.com/files/NUBIAN-PHARAOHS-AND-MEROITIC-KINGS.pdf

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Firewall
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
why bump a thread if you can link it?
I do it occasionally but it generally disrupts the flow of the forum.
Often nobody replies to it
It simply goes to the top and then sinks again
It's better to have a new reply to the content of the thread which bumps it up, my opinion

I did both.
I posted the links too.

quote:


At some point during the 4th century, the region was conquered by the Noba people, from which the name Nubia may derive (another possibility is that it comes from Nub, the Egyptian word for gold). From then on, the Romans referred to the area as the Nobatae.


quote:
Although the Noba and the Kushites were separate language and culture groups, they had probably co-existed in the region for centuries, and physically they were indistinguishable. When the power of Meroe declined, the two groups surely intermingled, if they had not done so earlier; the Noba may have assumed dominance, but they retained close ties to their Meroitic roots. One way of being certain of this is from the fact that many Nubians, even now, still wear the same facial scars that can be seen on the images of the Kushite rulers on their monuments at Meroe and other sites. These marks are handed down through families from one generation to the next and identify one's tribal affiliation. Obviously they have passed down to the present from remote antiquity, transcending dynastic, tribal, cultural, religious, and linguistic change.
quote:
Originally posted by Firewall:
quote:
Originally posted by Barachit:
Hi, everyone! I would like to get in this thread some references on ancient Kush, especially on this topic: Religions, Government, Customs, Cultures etc...



Here some threads/info about past chat on this.


Topic: The Ancient Nubia Military Thread:What was the military power of Ancient Nubia?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008743;p=1


Topic: Darfur: The Arabs and their "Authentic" Genealogy
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004296


Topic: Nubian aDNA: what the hell is stopping ES members from claiming CL Fox 1997?
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008387;p=1#000000


By the way i think i should bump these threads as well,because there is a lot of good info posted about the kushites,noba,modern nubians etc...

I posted some info on some books too about kush etc..in some threads,but i will have take time to find those.


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Clyde Winters
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Unfortunatley Rilly in his english books doesn't provides any proof of (any) of his claims which I'm sure are exposed in his other french books which should be investigated.

If Rilly does not provide any proof for his claims why do you cite his work?

.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://books.google.com/books?id=i54rPFeGKewC&pg=PA1&dq=%22László+Török+%22%22++term+Nubia%22&hl=en&

Der Nahe und Mittlere Osten ( The Near and Middle East)
By László Török

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Very nice finding the lioness. I was looking around for this one. Thanks for posting it. Especially the second part about the use of Kush by the Kushite themselves.
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Tukuler
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'Nubia' comes from the 4th century Noba
founders of Nobatae successor to Meroe.

NUBAE (link to the university standard)
Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854)
William Smith, LLD, Ed.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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Originally posted 27 January 2005

  • The Hebrew word Kush derives from the AEL word Kesh which
    which in turn comes from the word QEVS.

    Hansberry (1977) say, after Sayce and Griffith of Oxford based on an
    inscription, the people under question themselves used Qevs as the
    original indigenous designation of their own country.

    Unfortunately William Leo Hansberry died before he could publish that
    information in Africa & Africans himself and the published book's editor,
    Joseph Harris, occluded footnotes. However I did find this in the biblio:

    Griffith, F. L.
    Meroitic Studies III and IV
    Journal of Egyptian Archeaology v4

    London, 1917
    pp. 21-24, 159-173

    The precise info can be retrieved via interlibrary loan at a university.

    The northern part of QEVS they called Keneset while the
    southern area to clear past the 6th cataract they called Alu.

    One of the northern divisions was known as Athiye whence
    Aethiopia, and one of the southern divisions was Yesbe.

    Hansberry knew more than 100 native QEVS words for their
    towns and cities and neighboring inhabitations including
    designations that covered wide stretches of land and diverse
    groups of people but he didn't get to publish them. He does
    tell us that Meroe is from the QEVS word for the city Merheu.

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Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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^^Tukuler what you posted above is bullshit. One source is 1854 the other 1917 and when you do a google search on QEVS and Keneset it doesn't provide any results.

The google book excerpt thelioness posted by László Török (The Kingdom of Kush: Handbook of the Napatan-Meriotic Civilization ) is a much better source of information and practically a seminal work (often cited in many books).

http://books.google.com/books?id=i54rPFeGKewC&pg=PA1&dq=%22L%E1szl%F3+T%F6r%F6k+%22%22++term+Nubia%22&hl=en&

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