...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » The Levant an Extension of Africa/Sons of Ham (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   
Author Topic: The Levant an Extension of Africa/Sons of Ham
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I made this EXACT same thread on another site yesterday and it was well received. Basicaly a copy & paste. This is a topic that I've been wanting to make. The stuff I'm gonna be posting is most likely not gonna be anything new to most of you; since some of the sources I am going to use was most likely also posted on here before. But the reason why I decided to create this thread on here is because I want to see if any of you agree with my stance and critique it. [Smile]

The things I'm touching base on:
1. Should the Levant be an extension of Africa?
2. Hamitic theory
3. Sons of Ham and were the people of Canaan black?
4. Were the Jews black like other Southern Canaaites black?


But I want to clarify that this is just speculation on my part. This is not a confirmed opinion of mines, but something I am recently starting to research in. Again this is just speculation, basically a theory; though I will be posting some sources that back up some of my claims


Part 1: Origins of the Hamitic theory

Kush(Sudan), the oldest:
 -

Mizraim(Kemet):
 -


Phut(Libya)
 -


And finally Canaan(Levant):
 -

Going by the Bible/Hebrew definition the sons of Ham were of the black race. And were apart of the Land of Ham:
 -

From what I can see "The Land of Ham" was mostly Northeast Africa, but also extending into the Levant and some small parts of Arabia. Again from what I can see. The things of the Sons of Ham all have in common is that they were not only described as being "black" according to the bible and were mostly Northeast African, but also they had a big influence in the bible and the Sons of Ham are known for the great civilizations they had produced. Egypt being a good example. Though like I have said many times, Egypt is just a small slice in a larger pie.

From what I've seen Eurocentrics have a big obsession with the Northeast part of Africa:
 -


Not only did Northeast Africans have a very strong presence in the bible, but also one can argue that modern world religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam has ancestry in Africa. Which is kinda a shock to Eurocentrics/racist. Not only that but Afro-Asiatic which is said to have originated in modern Ethiopia, which people Hebrew/Arab is a branch of. Further supporting that modern religion may have ancestry in Northeast Africa. This is a BIG reason why Eurocentrics so desperately want to claim the entire Afro-Asiatic language family. I personally compare it to the Nazi's and Indo-Europeans. The Nazi's tried to claim Germanic people were the original/first Indo-European speakers and that the language originated in Germany; thus they are the "master race". Though we know Indo-European doesn't even originate in Germany or Europe for that matter, but outside Europe. IIRC probably India, Iran or somewhere near those locations. To me Eurocentric's use this same tactic with Afro-Asiatic with their Nostratic theory. Instead of AA originating in Africa, it originated among "Caucasoid" in Eurasia and thus the original speakers of AA were not Africans but them and by that they can claim Northeast African civilization and people.

Not only that but if we accept that Canaan was the son of Ham and thus black; wouldn't that mean the Phoenicians were maybe black!???? IIRC it is said that the Phoenicians were descendants from Caanites. The same Phoenicians who had direct/strong influence on the western world. Especially when it came to writing(who they in term got their writing from the Egyptians). Again this is a shock to Eurocentrics. And again is the reason why Egypt is a small slice in a larger pie.

This is why Eurocentrics want to claim all of Northeast Africans. Its the reason why they not only stopped saying blacks are cursed Hamites(but Canaan was only cursed), but also why they reversed/twisted the definition of Hamitic to no longer meaning black but non-black Caucasoid in general during the 19/20th century. After they only discovered the greatness of the children of Ham and their strong influence on the world. And because of that, they could no longer be black. Its a reason why Northeast Africans who look like this are considered Caucasoid:
 -

But during the days of slavery blacks were considered Hamites. BUT they were cursed, due to the myth of the curse of Ham. Funny how they twist definitions to only fit their agenda. This guys is the Eurocentric Hamitic race theory in a nutshell.

But lets continue....

Part 2 in next post...

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is all explained in the Joseph K. Pickrell study (2014):

quote:

Conclusions

Based on these analyses, we can propose a model for the spread of west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa as follows. First, a large-scale movement of people from west Eurasia into Ethiopia around 3,000 y ago (perhaps from southern Arabia and associated with the D’mt kingdom and the arrival of Ethiosemitic languages ) resulted in the dispersal of west Eurasian ancestry throughout eastern Africa. This was then followed by a migration of an admixed population (perhaps pastoralists related to speakers of Khoe–Kwadi languages) from eastern Africa to southern Africa, with admixture occurring ∼1,500 y ago. Advances in genotyping DNA from archaeological samples may allow aspects of this model to be directly tested.

LINK:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/7/2632.long

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part 2: Levant an extension of Africa? And were the Ancient Canaanite's black?
Like I said I've always held the view that at least Southern Canaan(Levent) was an extension of African until at least the period of the Romans and Christianity. To me the Levant was an extension of Northeast Africa going as far back to the Neolithic with the Natufians. This is just my personal opinion. Though the Levant is just a hopscotch away from Africa. :yeshrug: Not only that , but Southern Canaan(Levant) is ACTUALLY apart of Africa if you like at their tectonic plates. So where does Africa really end?
 -

The Levant was always a crossroad, but from the studies I read it seems the migrations were mostly coming from Africa and into the Middle East. The most known were the Natufians. Who were said to spread the AA language, but also spread agriculture to the middle east and Europe. The Natufians basically were one of the earliest colonizers of the area. African culture pre-dominated the area, even for the pre-dynastic culure of Egypt.

quote:
"Approximately 14 kya, climatic changes associated with the end of the Last Glacial Maximum resulted in regions around the world becoming more favorable to human exploitation. Northern Africa is one such region, and ~13 kya, novel technologies (“Natufian”) thought to be the immediate precursor to agricultural technologies emerged and were associated with semisedentary subsistence and population expansions in northeastern Africa (35). Moreover, before the emergence of the Natufian styled artifacts, the archaeological record includes two artifact styles, the “Geometric Kebaran” and the “Mushabian” associated with Middle Eastern and Northern African populations, respectively (35).The archaeological evidence suggests the peoples using these assemblages interacted for well over 1,000 years, and linguistic evidence suggests that the peoples using these assemblages may have spoken some form of proto-Afroasiatic (35, 36). Although the origins of the Afroasiatic language family remain contentious, linguistic data generally support a model in which the Afroasiatic language family arose in Northern Africa >10 kya (36). Moreover, analyses of the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic language family suggest that proto-Cushitic arose and diversified at least 7 kya, and this likely took place in Ethiopia .

Intriguingly, the origin and diversification of proto-Afroasiatic is consistent with the spread of intensive plant collection in the archaeological record, and some interpret this pattern to represent a model in which proto-Afroasiatic speakers developed the novel subsistence technology resulting in the expansion and spread of their Afroasiatic descendants in the region (37). Some examples of the relevant linguistic data include reconstructed Chadic root words for “porridge” and “sorghum” and the Cushitic root words for “grain” and “wheat” (37). Because these and other root words are present in many of the Chadic and Cushitic languages, it is assumed that they were present in the proto-Chadic and proto-Cushitic languages and therefore must be as old as those proto-languages (37).

The genetic data appear to be consistent with the archaeological and linguistic data indicative of extensive population interactions between North African and Middle Eastern populations.
A recent NRY study explores the distribution of haplogroups in a sample of African, Middle Eastern, and European males (38). Whereas a subclade of haplogroup E (M35) appears to have arisen in eastern Africa over 20 kya and subsequently spread to the Middle East and Europe, haplogroup J (M267) appears to have arisen in the Middle East over 20 kya and subsequently spread into northern Africa (38). A recent study of genomewide autosomal microsatellite markers reports that Middle Eastern and African samples share the highest number of alleles that are also absent in other non-African samples, consistent with bidirectional gene flow(1). In addition, a recent study of domestic goat mtDNA and NRY variation reports similar findings as well as evidence of trade along the Strait of Gibraltar (39). The combined archaeological, linguistic, and genetic data, therefore, suggest bidirectional migration of peoples between northern Africa and the Levant for at least the past ~14 ky."

Source:
http://www.pnas.org/content/107/Supplement_2/8931.full

^^^From what I read from above proto-Semitic most likely originated in the Levant among the Natufians during the period of the bronze age. So the early Semitic speakers could have just been migrating Africans.

quote:
Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.
http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.short

Cranio wise the Natufians cluster with Niger-Congo like people:
 -


I am aware that this is well before the Ancient Canaanites and Phoenicians, but again African culture pre-dominated the area. These are the people who made up part of the later Phoenicians long before there was a Phoenicia. And before the colonization of the area by the Egyptians.

But lets talk about the Ancient Canaanites and Phoenicians themselves.

With the Phoenicians I get the sense because southern Canaan was so heavily influenced by North East Africans, since at least the Neolithic, the Phoenicians were maybe a distant branch of Africans..


This makes sense because Ta-Seti established relations with Byblos even before the unification of Egypt. Egypt would come to have an overwhelming cultural and economic influence over Byblos. And one must note that Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony.

Now I am aware that there were Ancient Canaanites who did not look black, but white(keeping it real), but after doing some research around the web, I found that the white looking Canaanites/Syrians were differentiated from the majority black looking Canaanites by the Greeks. IIRC Canaan and Syria received large immigrants north from the Caucasus. The Greeks called the new non-black Syrians "Leucosyrian" meanng white and the black ones "Melanosyrians" meaning burnt. It's interesting because the Phoenicians ere said to belong to the 'black' - Melanosyrian branch along with many other Southern Canannites.

Lets see how the Greeks and others themselves described the two:


quote:
Leucosyri, to distinguish them from the people from beyond Taurus, which bear also the name of Syrians, but who, compared to the cistauric populations, are to have the dye browned by the heat of the sun, while those do not have it, difference which gave place to the denomination of Leucosyri.
Strabo
Geography 12:3:


quote:
.. the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."

Strabo
Geography 16:1:2


quote:
The Cha'ab Arabs, the
present possessors of the more southern parts of Babylonia, are nearly
black; and the "black Syrians," of whom Strabo speaks, seem intended to
represent the Babylonians.

George Rawlinson
The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 4


quote:
Sayce has identified the Hittites with the "White Syrians" of Strabo as contrasted with "the Black Syrians or Semitic Aramaeans, east of the Amanus"
Henry George Tomkins
Remarks on Mr. Flinders Petrie's Collection of Ethnographic Types from the Monuments of Egypt
The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Vol. 18.


quote:
LEUCOSYRI, the ancient name of the Syrians inhabiting Cappadocia, by which they were distinguished from the more southern Syrians, who were of a darker complexion.
(Herod. i.72, vii.72;
Strabo, xvi. p.737;
Pliny, H.N. vi.3;
Eustath. ad Dionys. 772,970.)

A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Volume II, Pages 171-172


Now lets look at how some of these "Melanosyrians" of southern Levant/Canaan were depicted:

 -

Face of a Canaanite man (fragment) from Beth Shan Painting on a jar (about 1300 BCE)


 -

A supply ship. On deck, the captain is haranguing a crew of Canaanites. Painted wood, 12th Dynasty (2000-1785 BCE), Middle Kingdom, Egypt.


 -

Canaanite God Reshef


More...


 -

 -
A Phoenician bust in the Egyptian style(from the Louvre)


So one could conclude that the Canaan was inhabited by blacks and it had a close relationship with Northeast Africa, though there were later migration from non-blacks to the area. Just my opinion. As for the Phoenicians, this thread really wasn't about them, but the area they are from but if one was to take in account of Canaanites being Ham's descendants and Phoenicians being descendants of Canaanites, then shouldn't one conclude that the Phoenicians may have been black?


Part 3 in next post...

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part 3: Were the Ancient Jews black like other Southern Canaanites?


I always held the idea of the Ancient Jews being black as nonsense due to the nonsense by radicals like the Black Hebrew Israelite's. But after doing some research around the web, I'm starting to really entertain that the early Jews were just migrating Egyptians/Ethiopians. I'm going to try and post sources that support this theory.


In part 2 we already know about Africans migrating into the Levant since the Neolithic. And also how the people of Southern Canaan, (which Israel is apart of) were described. Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony. Even during pre-dynastic times. A number of Israeli archaeologists claim ethnic Egyptians dominated some important Jewish territories which is interesting to me. Some people still believe the Jews were enslaved in Ancient Egypt, but we know from Zahi Hawass article that was not the case. But touching base on the known exodus hypothesis, Manetho and others wrote of a leprosy outbreak around 1400 BCE (Armana period) where high numbers of Egyptians and Ethiopians were forced to leave the country. I wouldn't doubt these same exiles going into Canaan and eventually taking over. Perhaps later they were seen as the Hebrew? Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony and the Hebrew retain certain customs that were once familiar to Egyptians and Ethiopians (for instance, circumcision).


But getting back on track of the early Jews being migrating Egyptians/Ethiopians, lets look at what some Greek/Roman writers state:


quote:
One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.
Strabo


quote:
The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.
Tacitus -- The Histories Book V


But more importantly Upper-Egyptians had a very long presence in one of the largest Hebrew cities such as Lachish, making up the majority of the population as late as the 6th century.


quote:
"The excavation uncovered a mass of human bones, which was estimated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals [...] Remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expedition [...] Curiously, the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time [...] 'the relationships found suggests that the population of the town in 700 B.C. was entirely, or almost entirely, of Egyptian origin...' They show further, that the population of Lakish was probably derived from Upper Egypt [...] If so, this indeed is a conclusion of far-reaching implications."
(David Ussiskhin: "The Conquest of Lachish by Sennacherib"; Tel Aviv University, The Institute of Archaeology, Tel Aviv, 1982: p.56-57)


Gezer and Megiddo showed similar affinities with Upper-Middle Egyptian-related populations. Judah and Egypt had strong ties during the Kush*te period. It is not a stretch to suggest they assisted Judah against the Assyrians because had close ties, going back to Neolithic times, when overpopulation along the upper Nile led to rather large scale migrations to the Levant. Also here's an interesting quote though I can not find the source, IIRC its by a Roman:


quote:
That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo, even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod: But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accredited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem represents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.
Here is something that agree's with that Lachish find:


quote:
D. L. Risdon in BIOMETRIKA 1939 31:99-166 reports
the Lachish cranial series has its closest resemblance
to the 4th dynasty series from Deshasheh and Medum
in Lower Egypt and the 18th dynasty samples from Thebes
and Abydos in Upper Egypt. Cranial samples from other
Palestinian sites (Gezer, Megiddo) agree with the Lachish
cranium. Thus we have a clear African "racial" continuum
in the Hebrews and Egyptians.


The phrase "black and beautiful" ( sh*hhora w*nawa )
originates from a Hebrew document, Song of Songs 1:5,
where an Israelite woman from Shunem exclaims her sun
enhanced ebon beauty to some color and class struck
dusky members of the royal household who kept themselves
behind palace walls out of sunlight
. For the Shulammite to
have tanned black she must have already been very brown.

In the midrash (Hebrew legendary lore) Shem teamed up with
Hham in the war against Yapheth, progenitor of the northern
people of pallour. The PIRQE DE RIBBI ELI`EZER 28a classes
Shem with people of colour. It says that Shem was especially
blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the
raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over.

Shem who is belived to be parent of the Jews, iirc.


quote:
Tacitus, a younger contemporary of Josephus, lists
common Roman opinions on Jewish origins. He wrote
that many were assured Judahites were descendents
of Kush*tes
(The Histories V.2). Is this a view lurking
within Amos 9:7?

IMO this is why the Romans stated the Jews are from Ethiopia/Kush:

 -


And to elaborate more...Note the hair depicted on David (dreadlocks) is consistent with the depictions of Egyptians, Ethiopians and Berbers in Greco-Roman art:


 -
Joseph being sold to Ishmaelites.


 -

Peter weeping after denying Christ three times, and the cock crowing; a deep pit represented by large jar with a mir of clay.


 -
 -
David and Goliath, each accompanied by a personification: David by Might and Goliath by Pride.


 -

The capture of David by Philistines in Gath.


 -

David in the cave of Adullam.


 -


David being crowned king of Israel.


Again this is just my personal theory that the early Jews were a subset of Egyptians/Ethiopians. But I think damn good one. The origins of the early Jews is really anyone's guess. But imo the Jews being black is more possible than them being white.


Conclusion:


Again all of this was just speculation on my part. Though the argument for Ancient Canaanites/Jews being black is not Afrocentric at all, but a very, very high possibility. Since the Levant was a crossroad and a hopscotch away from Northeast Africa. The race on the Jews/Canaanites is anyone's argument really. The root of my argument is based off Canaan being a son of Ham which is the black race in the bible. Though I still hold on that the Levant is an extension of Africa and don't think it is speculation. But what is for sure is that Eurocentrics have an obession with the children of Ham and areas surrounding their location.

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tukuler , Djhuti, Lioness, Matu, Ardo? What are you guys stance on this? Because I seen you guys having a similar discussion on this particular thread.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008446;p=4

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ausar
Member
Member # 1797

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for ausar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tukuler = Ardo = al~Takruri

the Tekrur bordering Senegal & Mauritania = Futa Toro = the Tekrur in the Western Sahel


and this thread is
really testing the boundaries of what's in
EGYPTOLOGY's domain vs that of ANCIENT EGYPT.
We'd like tighter documentation i.e. citations
when
quoting references (author, title, publisher, year).

Technically when you quote a "blogger" and
don't credit them by name you're violating
intellectual property rights (don't get sced
[Big Grin] )

Appreciate the Dawiydh with naziruth hair images.

Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ardo:
Tukuler = Ardo = al~Takruri

the Tekrur bordering Senegal & Mauritania = Futa Toro = the Tekrur in the Western Sahel

Gotcha.

quote:
Originally posted by Ardo:
and this thread is
really testing the boundaries of what's in
EGYPTOLOGY's domain vs that of ANCIENT EGYPT.
We'd like tighter documentation i.e. citations
when
quoting references (author, title, publisher, year).

Technically when you quote a "blogger" and
don't credit them by name you're violating
intellectual property rights (don't get sced
[Big Grin] )

Just a habit I picked up in college. Whenever I used a source I had to use author,title,etc. But again some of the sources I used I got from some threads on here, while others elsewhere.

quote:
Originally posted by Ardo:
Appreciate the Dawiydh with naziruth hair images.

Thanks. But may I ask, what is your opinion on the origins of the early Jews?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 3 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

I made this EXACT same thread on another site yesterday and it was well received. Basicaly a copy & paste. This is a topic that I've been wanting to make. The stuff I'm gonna be posting is most likely not gonna be anything new to most of you; since some of the sources I am going to use was most likely also posted on here before. But the reason why I decided to create this thread on here is because I want to see if any of you agree with my stance and critique it. [Smile]

The things I'm touching base on:
1. Should the Levant be an extension of Africa?
2. Hamitic theory
3. Sons of Ham and were the people of Canaan black?
4. Were the Jews black like other Southern Canaaites black?

Blessed, this topic has been discussed too many times in this forum on different occasions most recently here. I suggest you try looking into the archives or do google searches on past Egyptsearch topics that deal with this.

I will say that it pretty much established FACT that were expansions from Egypt into the Levant during the mesolithic i.e. Natufians who were once labeled as proto-Canaanites and even proto-Semites.

quote:
And finally Canaan(Levant):
 -

Are you sure that the above picture depicts Canaanites? I thought I've seen the above image tributaries labeled as Mesopotamians.

Anyway, here is the only known depiction of black Canaanites paying tribute.

 -

^ Note that there are white types among them as well.

[ 22. August 2020, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]

Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Blessed, this topic has been discussed too many times in this forum on different occasions most recently here. I suggest you try looking into the archives or do google searches on past Egyptsearch topics that deal with this.

I will say that it pretty much established FACT that were expansions from Egypt into the Levant during the mesolithic i.e. Natufians who were once labeled as proto-Canaanites and even proto-Semites.

Aye... I am aware that this was discussed on here before, but again the reason I made this thread on here is because I wanted you guys to critique my theory.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Are you sure that the above picture depicts Canaanites? I thought I've seen the above image tributaries labeled as Mesopotamians.

Anyway, here is the only known depiction of black Canaanites paying tribute.

 -

^ Note that there are white types among them as well.

You are correct. Thats actually a depiction of a Edomite correct me if I'm wrong. I got that image from a site and the person may have posted it out of context.

Mods is it alright if you change the picture in the OP to the one Djehuti posted?

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

Part 3: Were the Ancient Jews black like other Southern Canaanites?


I always held the idea of the Ancient Jews being black as nonsense due to the nonsense by radicals like the Black Hebrew Israelite's. But after doing some research around the web, I'm starting to really entertain that the early Jews were just migrating Egyptians/Ethiopians. I'm going to try and post sources that support this theory.


In part 2 we already know about Africans migrating into the Levant since the Neolithic. And also how the people of Southern Canaan, (which Israel is apart of) were described. Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony. Even during pre-dynastic times. A number of Israeli archaeologists claim ethnic Egyptians dominated some important Jewish territories which is interesting to me. Some people still believe the Jews were enslaved in Ancient Egypt, but we know from Zahi Hawass article that was not the case. But touching base on the known exodus hypothesis, Manetho and others wrote of a leprosy outbreak around 1400 BCE (Armana period) where high numbers of Egyptians and Ethiopians were forced to leave the country. I wouldn't doubt these same exiles going into Canaan and eventually taking over. Perhaps later they were seen as the Hebrew? Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony and the Hebrew retain certain customs that were once familiar to Egyptians and Ethiopians (for instance, circumcision).

I suggest you read this thread about Lachish crania here

As for ancient depictions of Judaeans/Judahites, Tukuler originally posted these:

 -

 -

 -

 -

As Tukuler/Ardo noted interestingly there were ethnic differences between the Judaeans especially southern Judaeans and the people of Israel further north. Even though both groups tend to be lumped together as Israelites.

I can't help to think that such differences may have something to do with the Retenu (Canaanites) portrayed by Egyptians as being black and white types.

[ 22. August 2020, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]

Posts: 26237 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I suggest you read this thread about Lachish crania here

Posted that study in part 3. Again not surprising to me personally, considering Southern Canaan was EGypt's oldest colony/trading post going back in pre-dynastic time. And lets not forget Will Durant noted early Hebrews close relationship with Ancient Egyptian gods/goddess iirc.

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
As for ancient depictions of Judaeans/Judahites, Tukuler originally posted these:

 -

 -

 -

 -

As Tukuler/Ardo noted interestingly there were ethnic differences between the Judaeans especially southern Judaeans and the people of Israel further north. Even though both groups tend to be lumped together as Israelites.

I can't help to think that such differences may have something to do with the Retenu (Canaanites) portrayed by Egyptians as being black and white types.

Seen those pictures tons of times around the net. Very interesting.


As for the differences. Correct me but I believe Southern Canaan was at least black while Northern Canaan/Levant was more white. Which is why we see such diverse depictions of them imo. Do you agree?

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
A poster on this site I originally posted this thread on posted this to me:

quote:
Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete, who settled on the nearest coast of Africa about the time when Saturn was driven from his throne by the power of Jupiter. Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighboring tribe, the Idaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name. Others assert that in the reign of Isis the overflowing population of Egypt, led by Hierosolymus and Judas, discharged itself into the neighboring countries. Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbors to seek a new dwelling-place. Others describe them as an Assyrian horde who, not having sufficient territory, took possession of part of Egypt, and founded cities of their own in what is called the Hebrew country, lying on the borders of Syria. Others, again, assign a very distinguished origin to the Jews, alleging that they were the Solymi, a nation celebrated in the poems of Homer, who called the city which they founded Hierosolyma after their own name. Most writers, however, agree in stating that once a disease, which horribly disfigured the body, broke out over Egypt; that king Bocchoris, seeking a remedy, consulted the oracle of Hammon, and was bidden to cleanse his realm, and to convey into some foreign land this race detested by the gods.
The Jewish Question: Biography of a World Problem


Its interesting because it kinda correlates with my leprosy outbreak theory. Not only that but it also seems like most historians back then used Manethosas a primary source.

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just found something interesting that supports some of the things I said.

quote:
The discovery of an Egyptian-style tomb at Tel Halif in the Negev Desert suggests an Egyptian colonial presence in southern Israel ca. 3000 B.C. Most burials in the region are in caves or shaft tombs attributed to the Canaanites, but this one, built during the Early Bronze 1B period (3300-3000 B.C.), is typical of contemporary tombs in Egypt, according to excavators Thomas Levy of the University of California, San Diego, and David Alon of the Joe Alon Regional Research Center in Israel. A 30-foot-long passageway descends to the burial chamber, which is about 26 feet long, 16 feet wide, and nine and one-half feet high. Within the dome-shaped chamber is a plastered stone platform on which the skeleton of a woman was found. About 25 years old when she died, she was found in a fetal position facing east, characteristic of Egyptian burials.

That an Egyptian was buried at Tel Halif "gives us evidence of a full-blown Egyptian colony in Israel right after the crystallization of the first Egyptian state," says Levy. "Egyptians were known to have very profound and elaborate belief systems about the afterlife and what was required to get there. One of these requirements was to die and be properly entombed on Egyptian soil. I think it's very likely that this part of southern Israel was considered part of greater Egypt during this period."

Egyptian ceramics, seal impressions, and bread molds found at Tel Halif support an Egyptian occupation. Among these artifacts is a potsherd engraved with the serekh, or sign, of King Narmer, who is believed to have united Upper and Lower Egypt between 3050 and 3000 B.C.

Source:
http://archive.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/negev.html

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Found some genetic stuff on the Phoenicians but don't know how accurate(since some studies I read correlate J2 with the Phoenicians) it is but note it is a European based site.

quote:

  • E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews, in addition to the propagation of agriculture. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain. However, the Mediterranean route for the diffusion of agriculture (see map above) went through the exact same regions. It is therefore impossible to know at present which of the two periods (Neolithic or Classical Antiquity) played the stronger role in the spread of V22 around the Mediterranean.

quote:

E-M123 is most commonly found in Ethiopia (5-20%), where it appears to have originated. Its main subclade E-M34 probably emerged in the southern Levant, where it reaches its maximum frequency (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews, 8% among the Bedouins, 5% in Lebanon), then expanded in every direction across North Africa (3-5%), the Middle East and South Asia, Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%). The distribution of E-M123 matches almost exactly the early expansion of farming in the Middle East (see map above) during the Neolithic period, but not so much in Europe, where the only possible association with a Neolithic culture is as a minor haplogroup of the Cardium Pottery culture. E-M123 is conspicuously absent from the part of the Balkans where E-V13 reaches its maximum (Thessaly, Albania, Kosovo) as well as from most Slavic countries, which is strong evidence that M123 wa not associated with the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, like the Linear Pottery culture.

In Europe E-M123 is only observed at frequencies over 2.5% in southern Italy, in the Spanish region Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%). E-M123 could have been brought to the Mediterranean coasts of Europe by the Phoenicians, and to Italy by the Etruscans (from Anatolia). The Romans might have contributed to spreading it around their empire at low frequencies.

 -
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Son of Ra
Member
Member # 20401

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Son of Ra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Awesome and informative thread! [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

You seem to have gone more in depth in this subject than I have! I also see that you used some material from my thread on Egyptsearch reloaded which I dont mind.

Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Awesome and informative thread! [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

Thanks. [Smile]


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
You seem to have gone more in depth in this subject than I have!

I recently started researching heavily in this subject after finding out that the Greeks differentiated between the "black Syrians" and the "white Syrians", that really caught my attention. And also the areas of southern Canaan being dominated by Nile Valley civilizations. But the root of my theories are really based off the bible's definition.


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I also see that you used some material from my thread on Egyptsearch reloaded which I dont mind. [/QB]

Which material? I don't remember getting material from Reloaded.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Son of Ra
Member
Member # 20401

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Son of Ra     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Awesome and informative thread! [Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

Thanks. [Smile]


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
You seem to have gone more in depth in this subject than I have!

I recently started researching heavily in this subject after finding out that the Greeks differentiated between the "black Syrians" and the "white Syrians", that really caught my attention. And also the areas of southern Canaan being dominated by Nile Valley civilizations. But the root of my theories are really based off the bible's definition.


quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I also see that you used some material from my thread on Egyptsearch reloaded which I dont mind.

Which material? I don't remember getting material from Reloaded. [/QB]
Great! Also im talking about these hebrew images showing David, Joseph,etc.
 -

I also used them for my thread on ES reloaded.

Posts: 1135 | From: Top secret | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually those images I found on The Bristol Psalter gallery.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Geber     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

Go to the Horn and tell them this. See how you get laughed at!
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

Go to the Horn and tell them this. See how you get laughed at!
I won't. This is common knowledge (both genetically and historically) and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia (or the middle east in general).
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I won't. This is common knowledge and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia.

What? This makes absolutely no sense. By your logic some West Africans Like Senegalese, Malians, Northern Nigerians, etc like to trace their genealogy back to Saudi Arabia since they are Muslim too. But that does not mean they are from Saudi Arabia.

Also a horn of African state like Ethiopia is majority Christian and I doubt they want to trace their genes back to a majority Muslim country. Also most Ethiopians I met online seemed to be some of the most pro-black people. Since IIRC Ethiopia is basically the capitol for pan-Africanism.

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I won't. This is common knowledge and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia.

What? This makes absolutely no sense. By your logic some West Africans Like Senegalese, Malians, Northern Nigerians, etc like to trace their genealogy back to Saudi Arabia since they are Muslim too. But that does not mean they are from Saudi Arabia.

Right or wrong many people in Eastern Africa like to trace their genealogy to the Middle East and Saudi Arabia. So nobody would laugh at me. Far from it. It is also proven by genetics and history.

quote:

Also a horn of African state like Ethiopia is majority Christian and I doubt they want to trace their genes back to a majority Muslim country. Also most Ethiopians I met online seemed to be some of the most pro-black people. Since IIRC Ethiopia is basically the capitol for pan-Africanism. [/qb]

For me the spiritual "capitol" of pan-Africanism is Ghana with Nkrumah. And this had nothing to do with history. Pan-Africanism is only a political union similar to the the European Union, the Arab League, etc. It already exist as the African Union.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Arab League:
 -
(this map still include South Sudan)

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Right or wrong many people in Eastern Africa like to trace their genealogy to the Middle East and Saudi Arabia. So nobody would laugh at me. Far from it. It is also proven by genetics and history.

Can you give specifics? Because again Ethiopian, which a horn of African country is majority Christian and I doubt they want to trace their roots back to Saudia Arabia. And can you clarify on what you mean by genetics? Because from what I see the the most admixed group of the horn are the Amhara people who are not even the majority of the horn.

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
For me the spiritual "capitol" of pan-Africanism is Ghana with Nkrumah. And this had nothing to do with history.

Black pride movements like the Rastafarian movement have links to Ethiopia. Not only that but Marcus Garvey who was a pan Africanist had close links with Ethiopia.

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Pan-Africanism is only a political union similar to the the European Union, the Arab League, etc. It already exist as the African Union.

Pan-Africanism is much more deeper than the EUand Arab League. Its true object is to "unify and uplift" people of African descent around the world. Something the EU and Arab League have nothing in common with. The African Union is only a form of Pan-Africanism; the AU which is headquartered in Ethiopia btw.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'll start with this since it has nothing to do with history.
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Its true object is to "unify and uplift" people of African descent around the world.

I hate to break it to you but every political unions like the European Union, Arab League and African Union have the goal to unify and uplift their people through their union. Of course, each union can have their own policies like the monetary system of the EU with the Euro (which I don't think would be good just yet for Africa), which the other 2 unions cited don't have (yet). The African Union is indeed headquartered in Ethiopia.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Again the EU and Arab League are political-economical union, not an ideology/movement like Pan-Africanism. Again they are NOT the same thing.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Again the EU and Arab League are political-economical union, not an ideology/movement like Pan-Africanism. Again they are NOT the same thing.

Explain the differences IN YOUR OPINION in practical terms. You said "unify and uplift" but all political unions have that goal.

Imo, people like Nkrumah were pan-Africans and the African Union was (and still is) the main vehicle to express this pan-Africanism. It is indeed similar to the recent European Union and the Arab League. That's why people like Nkrumah were at the forefront of creating the African Union.

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 - - Nkrumah
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Explain the differences IN YOUR OPINION in practical terms. You said "unify and uplift" but all political unions have that goal.

The Pan-Africanism means "unify and uplift" spiritually and not just economically like the EU. Again PA is a movement, while the EU is a political/economical union.

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Imo, people like Nkrumah were pan-African and the African Union was (and still is) the main vehicle to express this pan-Africanism. It is indeed similar to the recent European Union and the Arab League. That's why people like Nkrumah were at the forefront of creating the African Union. [/QB]

Nobody said the AU wasn't. But like I said the AU is only just a form of AU since it doesn't even include the diaspora. Again Pan-Africanism=movement. European Union/Arab League=Political/Economical union. Pan-Africanism is too broad for it to be similar to the EU/Arab League.

Anyways I think we should get back on topic.

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Explain the differences IN YOUR OPINION in practical terms. You said "unify and uplift" but all political unions have that goal.

The Pan-Africanism means "unify and uplift" spiritually
What do you mean uplift spiritually? Like a religion or something? How does pan-Africanism does that? Do you mean like the Rastafari movement?
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Meaning attitude and outlook. Installing pride in being a person of African descent.

Again I'm getting back on topic. Whats your opinion on the thread and my stuff on the Canaanites/early Hebrews. Do you agree with my theory or do you think its faulty?

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Again I'm getting back on topic. Whats your opinion on the thread and my stuff on the Canaanites/early Hebrews. Do you agree with my theory or do you think its faulty?

I don't want to be too hard on you but since you asked for it it's all bullshit. Hebrews are great people and have a great history but it's not our history. We are not descendants of Abraham. We have our own history, spiritual traditions and cultures in Africa which have nothing do to with Hebrews, Jewish, Christians (European/Jews) or Muslims(Arabs).

You still have a lot to learn about your own history, not the great history of other people, if you're indeed someone of African descents.

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I don't want to be too hard on you but since you asked for it it's all bullshit. Hebrews are great people and have a great history but it's not our history. We are not descendants of Abraham. We have our own history, spiritual traditions and cultures in Africa which have nothing do to with Hebrews, Jewish, Christians (European/Jews) or Muslims(Arabs).

I never said we are descendants of Abraham nor did I say it was "our" history. It was a theory and I wanted you to critique. But you should at least note that those two religions you listed have ancestry in Africa. Not only that but Africans played a vital part in the history of those religions; whether the early people of those religions were African or not.

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
You still have a lot to learn about your own history,

Actually I know fairly a lot about African/black history based on many research. I do know a lot about my "own history" thank you very much.

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
not the great history of other people, if you're indeed someone of African descents.

I am. Nor do I need to prove it.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I don't want to be too hard on you but since you asked for it it's all bullshit. Hebrews are great people and have a great history but it's not our history. We are not descendants of Abraham. We have our own history, spiritual traditions and cultures in Africa which have nothing do to with Hebrews, Jewish, Christians (European/Jews) or Muslims(Arabs).

I never said we are descendants of Abraham nor did I say it was "our" history. It was a theory and I wanted you to critique. But you should at least note that those two religions you listed have ancestry in Africa. Not only that but Africans played a vital part in the history of those religions; whether the early people of those religions were African or not.

It's true that there's some influence of Ancient Egypt on Hebrew people, but on the religious angle Hebrew people made something completely different than what existed in Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece or Romes (before constantine). Judaism, and it's children, Christianity and Islam, were all about destroying "pagan" religions to replace it with new doctrines almost completely disconnected from what existed previously on fundamental levels.

Based on current genetic and archaeological studies Ancient Egyptians seems to be mostly black Africans but still more research needs to be done. Nevertheless, black Africans from ancient times (common origin in Eastern Africa, Green Sahara period) had no doubt a lot of influence on Ancient Egypt culturally, religiously and in its peopling.

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
It's true that there's some influence of Ancient Egypt on Hebrew people, but on the religious angle Hebrew people made something completely different that what existed in Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece or Romes (before constantine).

All I'm saying is that Africans played big parts in the history of the three main religions than you think. Whether the first practitioners of those religions were black or not is anyones guess imi. And both parties offer compelling arguments. As for the Hebrew religious angle being completely different from what was practiced in Egypt; I don't know how true, but there are some good arguments that suggest that the early Jews were Atenist. Christopher Ehret being the most well known of this argument.

quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Judaism, and it's children, Christianity and Islam, were all about destroying "pagan" religions to replace it with new doctrines almost completely disconnected from what existed previously on fundamental levels.

I don't know about Christianity or Islam, but weren't the people of Jerusalem allied with pagan people AKA the Kushites/Ethiopians?
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
It's true that there's some influence of Ancient Egypt on Hebrew people, but on the religious angle Hebrew people made something completely different that what existed in Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece or Romes (before constantine).

All I'm saying is that Africans played big parts in the history of the three main religions than you think. Whether the first practitioners of those religions were black or not is anyones guess imi. And both parties offer compelling arguments. As for the Hebrew religious angle being completely different from what was practiced in Egypt; I don't know how true, but there are some good arguments that suggest that the early Jews were Atenist.

The Jewish religions is completely different than Akhenaton's religion (which is like the Ancient Egyptian religion twisted for his own purpose by a megalomaniac) which was himself an heretic king in relation to Ancient Egyptian spiritual traditions (of diversity and tolerance). As soon as he died, Ancient Egyptians, including his mother iirc, rejected anything related to Akhenaten and abandoned the city.

But you still must see the irony of people trying to make linkage between an heretic king who was destroying religious traditions of diversity and tolerance in Ancient Egypt with their own religions (not that it's anywhere written in their religious books). Akhenaten, which was some kind of megalomaniac, didn't last long and the previous religious traditions were quickly restored after his death.

In short, Akhenaten broke with traditions and that's why christians and muslims in some quarters like him so much. Pitiful.

quote:
I don't know about Christianity or Islam, but weren't the people of Jerusalem allied with pagan people AKA the Kushites/Ethiopians?

Yes, as you know I talked about the 'Rescue of Jerusalem' which is an excellent book on this forum before. People can be allied without having the same exact culture or tradition (beside a culture - a worldview- of tolerance and respect of what is different I guess). In fact, usually people becomes allies without having the same culture, that's what being allied means which is different than being colonized and coerced into an union. By definition, an alliance is the joining of 2 or more DIFFERENT people or groups for a common purpose.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My point with the Kushites were is that you said religions like Judaism were enemies of people of pagan belief, yet the Hebrews who were of Jewish faith were allied with a pagan people.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
My point with the Kushites were is that you said religions like Judaism were enemies of people of pagan belief, yet the Hebrews who were of Jewish faith were allied with a pagan people.

Yes, IIRC, it's the Kushites who did rescue the Hebrew people not the other way around (so it tells us about their -the Kushites- worldview).

Pagans, infidels, heathens shouldn't be words used by anybody or written in any books as no religious traditions are better than the others beside by the virtue of being our own. When you truly respect your own traditions, you also respect the ancestral traditions of other people because it's their own traditions too.

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not talking about "who rescued who". You're not understanding my point, the fact is both groups were allies and yet they had different religions. The Hebrews did not see the Kushites as "infidels" but allies. The Hebrews even praise them in their OWN book.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I'm not talking about "who rescued who". You're not understanding my point, the fact is both groups were allies and yet they had different religions.

We agree on this. They were allied even if they practiced different religions.

quote:

The Hebrews did not see the Kushites as "infidels" but allies. The Hebrews even praise them in their OWN book.

I don't remember this precisely. Can you post extracts about it. About Hebrews praising Kushites in their own book.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
IIRC King Taharqa who was a Kushite/Ethiopian king was praised by the Hebrews for saving Jerusalem. I cant find the exact quotes.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
IIRC King Taharqa who was a Kushite/Ethiopian king was praised by the Hebrews for saving Jerusalem. I cant find the exact quotes.

It's the exact quotes I would like to see.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Again I cant find the exact quotes.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tukuler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Because it doesn't exist.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Then I'm wrong. I thought there was a part in the bible where the Hebrews thanks an Ethiopian king for saving them.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tukuler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What saved the Kingdom of Judah
from the Assyrians was set of
circumstances that caused
Sennacherib to return
home where later his
sons offed him.

Be sure of facts or be,
unintentionally, just
like Eurocentrics,
who lead astray
and distort.

Remember, some young
impressionable black
mind is depending on
you for facts about
history not wishes
that don't hold up
under critical
examination.

Don't leave them thinking
black history and African
history is a fantasy only
designed to make blacks
"feel good".

Haven't read this but it may be enlightening

Dan’el KAHN
TAHARQA KING OF KUSH, AND THE ASSYRIANS

Page 1
JSSEA 31 (2004)


I've asked Kahn for his latest on the subject
and await his, hopefully favorable, reply.

meanwhile qqv
http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=941&journal=1&type=pdf

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Askia_The_Great
Administrator
Member # 22000

Member Rated:
5
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Askia_The_Great     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^^^The thing is I never said I knew it was true/fact, which is why I said "IIRC" so by that any impressionable black mind would know I wasn't sure of my claim. And also it should be his/her duty to do the research themselves, imo. Since we are in the information age. And no none of what I posted even correlated to black history being "feel good". So I don't get where you got that from? I said from the beginning of this thread that this is all speculation on my part and I wanted the material I posted to and my theory to be critiqued.

What is your opinion on what I posted in parts 1, 2 and 3? Again I let the viewers of this thread know right from the get-go that none of the things posted shouldn't be taken as fact because they are not even confirmed opinions by me.

Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
What saved the Kingdom of Judah
from the Assyrians was set of
circumstances

Like the alliance with the Kushites.

Have you read the book? It was a long time ago but I remember the evidences were pretty compelling.

Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tukuler   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
@ARtU (who will just argue to argue without any basis in fact just so long as its blaaaaaaaaaaaaack babee
and will label anyone racist once they disagree with him and give them flack everafter even if they say water is wet)

Owned and Read the book when it first came out.
Have you read the ancient documents left by
Tarharqa or by Sennacherib themselves?


@ BbH (a valueable ES newbie)

You did ask for critique
not a pat on the back,
no?

Why say it if you're not sure.

This is EgyptSearch Egyptology forum.
We want "verifiable" facts here.

Speculate @ Egyptsearch Ancient Egypt forum.

There's also EgyptSearchReloaded
for "feel good" kind of stuff.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 5 pages: 1  2  3  4  5   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3