quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @ BbH (a valueable ES newbie)
Why say it if you're not sure.
Aye... What I said about the Hebrews praising the Ethiopians in the bible wasn't even serious nor was apart of this topic/thread. It was a topic me and Amun were discussing that was off-topic. So I don't know why you're keep bringing it up, when its not really a big deal.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: We want "verifiable" facts here.
I did post "verifiable" facts, which I used to try and back up my theories about the early Canaanites/Hebrews. Some primary sources at that. My theory itself was speculation, not the sources themselves. Which is why I asked many people again and again to critique them, yet most decided not to.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Speculate @ Egyptsearch Ancient Egypt forum.
There's also EgyptSearchReloaded for "feel good" kind of stuff.
I don't get where you're trying to go? Are you going to critique the info or not?
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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Aw fugeddaboudit.
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From what I've seen from you, you know your stuff. The reason why I came off hot-heated with this comment, " Are you going to critique the info or not?" Is because I'm really interested in this subject and want to hear other people opinions. I didn't mean to come off rude or impatient. Anyways we shouldn't argue.
Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
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S'alright bruh I ain't THAT sensitive i just not feelin' it now so fuhgeddaboutit
Havanna Hunny's rollin' me a cigar on her thighs bye
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Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.
Iwhre did you get the idea that the Greeks spoke of "black Syrians" and "white Syrians" ?
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Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.
Iwhre did you get the idea that the Greeks spoke of "black Syrians" and "white Syrians" ?
Read part 2 on page 1...
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Found some genetic stuff on the Phoenicians but don't know how accurate(since some studies I read correlate J2 with the Phoenicians) it is but note it is a European based site.
E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews, in addition to the propagation of agriculture. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain. However, the Mediterranean route for the diffusion of agriculture (see map above) went through the exact same regions. It is therefore impossible to know at present which of the two periods (Neolithic or Classical Antiquity) played the stronger role in the spread of V22 around the Mediterranean.
E-M123 is most commonly found in Ethiopia (5-20%), where it appears to have originated. Its main subclade E-M34 probably emerged in the southern Levant, where it reaches its maximum frequency (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews, 8% among the Bedouins, 5% in Lebanon), then expanded in every direction across North Africa (3-5%), the Middle East and South Asia, Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%). The distribution of E-M123 matches almost exactly the early expansion of farming in the Middle East (see map above) during the Neolithic period, but not so much in Europe, where the only possible association with a Neolithic culture is as a minor haplogroup of the Cardium Pottery culture. E-M123 is conspicuously absent from the part of the Balkans where E-V13 reaches its maximum (Thessaly, Albania, Kosovo) as well as from most Slavic countries, which is strong evidence that M123 wa not associated with the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, like the Linear Pottery culture.
In Europe E-M123 is only observed at frequencies over 2.5% in southern Italy, in the Spanish region Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%). E-M123 could have been brought to the Mediterranean coasts of Europe by the Phoenicians, and to Italy by the Etruscans (from Anatolia). The Romans might have contributed to spreading it around their empire at low frequencies. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
J2 actually correlates to various Levantine groups in general and not just Phoenicians. But in regards to E1b1b derived lineages, note how your source states that E-M34 originates in the Levant. This is the common conjecture in academia as noted in this paper: Modern carriers of haplogroup E1b1b1c1 (M34) are the descendants of the ancient Levantines. However many Eurocentrics wittingly do not take into account that E-M34 arose among an African derived population OR that it may have likely arose in Africa first. The same assumption was made about ancestral E-V22 until its discovery among Egyptians. In fact Cruciani et al. back in a 2004 study has made this argument: From the Near East, E-M34 chromosomes could also have been introduced into Europe, possibly by Neolithic farmers, but the paucity of E-M34 chromosomes in southeastern Europe (Semino et al. 2004;) weakens this hypothesis. Indeed, as for E-M78δ chromosomes, introduction of E-M34 from Africa directly to southern-central Europe cannot be excluded at the present.
Yet the Euronuts like to use prove of Ethiopia's lower variance of E-M34 as proof that it originated in Asia. By the way, Ethiopia's J lineages largely derive from the neolithic period around the exact same time its E-M34 clades appeared. And judging by the appearance of J carrying Asians in next door Yemen and southern Arabia they apparently weren't the light-skinned hairy Middle Easterners many would have you believe. Then again, I remember reading somewhere that the J derived lineages found in Ethiopia actually post-date the E-M34 derived clades found there.
Speaking of which, I suggest you read the discussion had in this thread: Y-chromosome variation in Jordan ABSTRACT A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.
. ..As Bedouin tribes had an important role in the colonization of southeast Jordan, it could be that the haplogroup composition of the Dead Sea reflected genetic affinities to them, but that is not the case. The most striking characteristic of the Dead Sea sample is the high prevalence of R1*-M173 lineages (40%), contrasting with the lack of them and of its derivatives R1b3-N269 in Bedouin from Nebel et al. (2001) and its low frequencies in Amman. It is worth mentioning that until now, similar frequencies for R1*-M173 have only been found in northern Cameroon (Cruciani et al. 2002). The possibility that the Dead Sea and Cameroon are isolated remnants of a past broad human expansion deserves future studies.
Interestingly, when the molecular heterogeneity of the G6PD locus was compared between the Amman and the Dead Sea samples, a lower number of different variants and a higher incidence of the African G6PD-A allele was detected in the latter (Karadsheh, personal communication). Another singularity of the Dead Sea is its high frequency (31%) of E3b3a-M34, a derivative of the E3b3-M123 that is only found in 7% Bedouins (Cruciani et al. 2004). Until now, the highest frequencies for this marker (23.5%) had been found in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al. 2004). On the contrary, most Bedouin chromosomes (63%) belong to the haplogroup J1-M267 (Semino et al. 2004) compared with 9% in the Dead Sea. All these evidences point to the Dead Sea as an isolated region perhaps with past ties to sub-Saharan and eastern Africa.
Strong drift and/or founder effects might be responsible for its anomalous haplogroup frequencies...Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.
where did you get the idea that the Greeks spoke of "black Syrians" and "white Syrians" ?
Read part 2 on page 1...
Ok I see you have good Strabo references on that
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J2 actually correlates to various Levantine groups in general and not just Phoenicians.
Studies I read, like this one specifically try to link J2 with the Phoenecians and people who carry this paternal clade in general are descendants from the Phoencieans. Especially Lebanense who carry J2, but I agree 100% that J2 is just a general clade for Levantine people.
If we take Europedia stating that the Phoenicans carried E-V22 with a grain of salt, then I think it supports the view of Herodotus saying they came from the Red sea(near Yemen/Somalia). Which also isn't surprising considering they were counted under the "Melanosyrians".
of the ancient Levantines. However many Eurocentrics wittingly do not take into account that E-M34 arose among an African derived population OR that it may have likely arose in Africa first. The same assumption was made about ancestral E-V22 until its discovery among Egyptians. In fact Cruciani et al. back in a 2004 study has made this argument:
From the Near East, E-M34 chromosomes could also have been introduced into Europe, possibly by Neolithic farmers, but the paucity of E-M34 chromosomes in southeastern Europe (Semino et al. 2004;) weakens this hypothesis. Indeed, as for E-M78δ chromosomes, introduction of E-M34 from Africa directly to southern-central Europe cannot be excluded at the present.
Indeed. They never take into consideration of what Keita said here:
quote:The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.
-- Keita, In Hot Pursuit of Language in Prehistory ed. John Benjamins. (2008) I know he's touching base on the "Paloelithic", which is a far earlier time but it's still true that there was back and forth migration. Clades that are not considered African that are right next door to Africa, very well could be African or originated among dervied African people like you said. This is why not only me believes that the Levant could very well be a extension of Africa. And let's not forget that E-M34 parent is E-M123 which arose in Ethiopia. And I don't even believe they even found an SNP event for E-M34 to say its not even African.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yet the Euronuts like to use prove of Ethiopia's lower variance of E-M34 as proof that it originated in Asia.
They do the same thing with E-V13 since its hardly found in Africa, though there is an SNP event for E-V13 and its no longer really African, but like you said couldn't it been carried by African devrived people??? Since the parent clade of E-V12(E-V36) is African... But yeah E-V13 being found in Europe in high freqency and being a child of African E clades is the reason why Eurocentrics have this big obession with the E haplogroup in general; and also Northeast Africans like I said, due to their strong influence on "western Eurasian" people.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way, Ethiopia's J lineages largely derive from the neolithic period around the exact same time its E-M34 clades appeared. And judging by the appearance of J carrying Asians in next door Yemen and southern Arabia they apparently weren't the light-skinned hairy Middle Easterners many would have you believe. Then again, I remember reading somewhere that the J derived lineages found in Ethiopia actually post-date the E-M34 derived clades found there.
In my personal opinion I don't think we see lighter toned Arabians until at least the mid-bronze age. Again my opinion. But again it isn't surprising that early Arabians and Levantines would resemble Africans due to such close promixity. And J linages being found in Ethiopia being neolithic in origins is interesting and new to me. So imo how "mixed" are Ethiopians? Since those early J carriers would have resembled Africans themselves.
A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.
.
..As Bedouin tribes had an important role in the colonization of southeast Jordan, it could be that the haplogroup composition of the Dead Sea reflected genetic affinities to them, but that is not the case. The most striking characteristic of the Dead Sea sample is the high prevalence of R1*-M173 lineages (40%), contrasting with the lack of them and of its derivatives R1b3-N269 in Bedouin from Nebel et al. (2001) and its low frequencies in Amman. It is worth mentioning that until now, similar frequencies for R1*-M173 have only been found in northern Cameroon (Cruciani et al. 2002). The possibility that the Dead Sea and Cameroon are isolated remnants of a past broad human expansion deserves future studies.
Interestingly, when the molecular heterogeneity of the G6PD locus was compared between the Amman and the Dead Sea samples, a lower number of different variants and a higher incidence of the African G6PD-A allele was detected in the latter (Karadsheh, personal communication). Another singularity of the Dead Sea is its high frequency (31%) of E3b3a-M34, a derivative of the E3b3-M123 that is only found in 7% Bedouins (Cruciani et al. 2004). Until now, the highest frequencies for this marker (23.5%) had been found in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al. 2004). On the contrary, most Bedouin chromosomes (63%) belong to the haplogroup J1-M267 (Semino et al. 2004) compared with 9% in the Dead Sea. All these evidences point to the Dead Sea as an isolated region perhaps with past ties to sub-Saharan and eastern Africa.
Strong drift and/or founder effects might be responsible for its anomalous haplogroup frequencies...
Whoa... I don't think I've seen this before!!! Yeah I already started reading through the thread you linked. Seen a character named "Evil Euro", I think he's a mod on that Euronut site "Racial Realities". But yeah this study you posted support African migration into the Levant.
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posted
^ Note that most studies on Levantine genetic ancestry tend to focus on the Israel-Palestine area as well as Syria and Lebanon. You don't see as many studies on Jordan and the Sinai at least I don't.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: some examples to look at when considering how the Greeks may have spoken about these people
You presume that peoples of these areas whom the Greeks described remained the same with no changes in appearance. The fallacy of this argument is no different from that of Egypt, that is modern day Egyptians especially in the Delta look the same as when the Greeks described them and obviously they don't!
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
quote:.. the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."
Strabo Geography 16:1:2
. A precision, the above reference is from Pliny the Elder Natural History 6.3.18 EDIT: Oops, you are correct. Pliny was quoting Strabo. I fouled up!
Otherwise I commend you on the Melanosyrii. Thanks for fleshing out the term with text left uncited by DJ back in 2010.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Now lets look at how some of these "Melanosyrians" of southern Levant/Canaan were depicted:
A supply ship. On deck, the captain is haranguing a crew of Canaanites. Painted wood, 12th Dynasty (2000-1785 BCE), Middle Kingdom, Egypt.
. My six year old: "Daddy, all those boat people are 'gyptians." So, I beg to differ w/t National Maritime Museum, Haifa, Israel.
Here are Canaanites on a boat with an Egyptian or two mucking with 'em. Ludwig Borchardt (1910) Das Grabdenkmal des Königs S'ahu-Re
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
More...
A Phoenician bust in the Egyptian style(from the Louvre)
. Phoenician bust or either * the pharaoh Senwosret II * the pharaoh Amenemhet II * one of the minor 13th dyn 'Sekhem' named pharaohs?
DJ or somebody please help me out w/t cartouche.
[ 07. October 2014, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Ardo ]
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
You presume that peoples of these areas whom the Greeks described remained the same with no changes in appearance. The fallacy of this argument is no different from that of Egypt, that is modern day Egyptians especially in the Delta look the same as when the Greeks described them and obviously they don't!
. C'mon DJ, this is just another photo spam clown antic by the Lioness,. TL's posted it earlier elsewhere.
"The fallacy of this argument is" there's not one Syrian in the bunch.
@ All For Syria, an author's context's necessary because of its various applications. But in general, Syria refers to north Levant while Palestine to south Levant. Syria isn't any of the Arabias. Levant means the eastern Mediterranean. It never means Mesopotamia, the Land between the Rivers (Tigris and Euphrates).
Be careful of compound terms like Syro Phoenicia. Remember, Syria derives from Ssur/Tsur/Tyre, Phoenicia's premier city (eg coterminous with Ssiydon, K*na'an's eldest "son").
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Note that most studies on Levantine genetic ancestry tend to focus on the Israel-Palestine area as well as Syria and Lebanon. You don't see as many studies on Jordan and the Sinai at least I don't.
You're right those three countries seem to be the only.
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Do you have anything on Herodotus saying the Phoenicians originated near the "Eritrea sea" aka the Red Sea? And thanks for addressing my posts. But your picture is not showing. And from what I've seen that Phoenician bust definitely appears to be Phoenician. Most sites I've seen label it as such. IIRC its from the Louvre Museum, Paris, France.
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Lets not derail this thread Lioness. Just ignore.
It's too late you should have told Djehuti that I don't ignore anything everybody knows that
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.
But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.
Go to the Horn and tell them this. See how you get laughed at!
I won't. This is common knowledge (both genetically and historically) and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia (or the middle east in general).
Of course you won't because it's common knowledge that what you type is outrageous rubbish, all picked out of your behind.
What you appearently still don't get is the people from the Mid East are a subset of these East Africans. Not the other way around. It was shown to you on many levels and in many ways. (Archeological, genetically, linguistically, historically, anthropologically).
In your mind Mid Easterns popped-out from nowhere.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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As xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa
Technically he is correct, when you speak in terms of expansion. And that map is nice thou.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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You do know that Syria has had a lot of slave input from (east) Europe, don't you?
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Nice map you made. No Afrocentric researcher I know of ever made this map.
I am surprised that you would make this map supporting the research of xyyman.
It does reflect his views that Arabians carry East African genes, while Europe generally given the presence of R1, as xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa.
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Can we get back on topic please? Everyone.
Ok let's look at the historical timeline of the Syria and how it's an Extension of Africa
SYRIA
BC
(800,000 BC) oldest remains found in Syria, Neanderthal (10,200 - 8,000 BC) Mureybet culture (6,500 BC-1160 BC) Ugarit, Caananite port city (3000 BC) Ebla, semetic Kingdom (2400 BC) Mesopotamian city of Nagar became powerful state (2100 BC) Amorites came from Arabian Peninsula, established many small states (1500 BC) Arameans developed language that dominated Syria (1200 BC) Hebrews/Israelites moved to southern Syria (538 BC) Syria became part of the Persian Empire. (332 BC) Alexander the Great conquered Syria (300 BC) Greek colony, Dura-Europos, built on the Euphrates in eastern Syria (300 BC – 64 BC) Antioch was the capital of the Kingdom of Syria (274 BC – 271 BC) Ptolemies defeated Antiochus I, Seleucid king who was trying to expand empire's holdings in Syria and Anatolia (64 BC) Roman general, Pompey, defeated Seleucid Antiochus XIII, Syria became a Roman province
AD
(117) Hadrian became emperor (262 - 266) Syria was restored to the Roman Empire after defeat of Valerian (266) King Odenathus, ruler of Roman province of Syria, was murdered; his wife, Zenobia Septimia, took control (270) Zenobia of Syria proclaimed herself to be Queen of the East, attacked adjoining Roman colonies, conquered Egypt (636) At Battle at Yarmuk, Islamic forces defeated Byzantine army, gained control of Syria (661) Umayyad Caliphate rule began founded by Muawiya ibn Abi Sufyan (661) Muawija became caliph, moved capital to Damascus (1098) First Crusaders captured, plundered Mara in Syria (1110) Crusaders captured Syrian city of Saida (1174 - 1183) Nureddin, ruler of Syria died; led by Saladin, the Ayyubids took control, brought stability and positive economic growth (1202) Major earthquake killed over 30,000 (1250) Egyptian Mamlukes controlled most of Syria (1300) Last of the Crusaders were driven out of Syria (1492) After expulsion from Spain, Jews began arriving in Syria (1496) Jews were expelled from Syria (1516) At battle of Marj Dabik, Turks beat Syria, Ottoman Empire began (1831) Syria and Jordan were conquered by Egypt (1840) Egypt withdrew from Syria and Jordan following pressure from Britain and Austria (1860) Over 25,000 Christians in Damascus were massacred (1860) France sent 5,000 troops to Syria to stop massacres (1869) Syria's economic importance diminished with opening of the Suez Canal 1900s (1916) Great Britain and France signed Sykes-Picot Agreement, divided Middle East, Syria and Lebanon given to France (1918) Ottoman rule over Syria ended when Arab troops, led by Emir Feisal, captured Damascus (1919) First parliamentary elections took place
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Perhaps the Ham period would correspond to the ancient of Canaanite port city of Ugarit
The site of Ugarit lies some six miles north of the Syrian port of Latakia on the Mediterranean coast. Its ruins, in the form of a mound or tell, lie half a mile from the shore. Although the name of the city was known from Egyptian and Hittite sources, its location and history were a mystery until the accidental discovery in 1928 of an ancient tomb at the small Arab village of Ras Shamra. A French archaeological mission under the direction of Claude F.-A. Schaeffer (1898–1982) began excavations in 1929. This was followed by a series of digs through 1939. Limited work was undertaken in 1948, but full-scale work did not resume until 1950.
The city's location ensured its importance through trade. To the west lay a good harbor (the bay of Minet el Beidha), while to the east a pass led to the heart of Syria and northern Mesopotamia through the mountain range that lies parallel with the coast. The city also sat astride an important north-south coastal trade route linking Anatolia and Egypt.
It is clear from excavations that Ugarit was first settled in the Neolithic period (about 6500 B.C.) and had grown into a substantial town by the early third millennium B.C. Ugarit is mentioned in cuneiform documents discovered at Mari on the Euphrates dating to the Middle Bronze Age (ca. 2000–1600 B.C.). However, it was in the fourteenth century B.C. that the city entered its golden age. At that time, the prince of Byblos, the wealthy trading coastal city (in modern Lebanon), wrote to the Egyptian king Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten, r. ca. 1353–1336 B.C.) to warn him about the power of the neighboring city Tyre and compared its magnificence with that of Ugarit:
See, there is no mayor's residence that can compare with that of Tyre. It is like the residence at Ugarit. Extraordinary large are the riches there.
Ugarit was a flourishing city, its streets lined with two-story houses dominated on the northeastern side of the tell by an acropolis with two temples dedicated to the gods Baal and Dagan. A large palace, built from finely dressed stones and consisting of numerous courtyards, pillared halls, and a columned entrance gate, occupied the western edge of the city. In a special wing of the palace were a number of rooms apparently devoted to administration, since hundreds of cuneiform tablets were discovered there covering almost all aspects of the life of Ugarit from the fourteenth to the twelfth century B.C. It is clear that the city dominated the surrounding land (though the full extent of the kingdom is uncertain).
From around 1500 B.C., the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni had dominated much of Syria, but by 1400 B.C., when the earliest tablets at Ugarit were written, Mitanni was in decline. This was mainly a result of repeated attacks by the Hittites of Central Anatolia. Eventually, around 1350 B.C., Ugarit, along with much of Syria as far south as Damascus, fell under Hittite domination. According to the texts, other states had tried to draw Ugarit into an anti-Hittite alliance, but the city refused and called on the Hittites for help. After the Hittites conquered the region, a treaty was drawn up that made Ugarit a Hittite subject-state. The Akkadian version of the treaty, covering several tablets, was recovered at Ugarit. The Ugarit state grew as a result, gaining territories from the defeated alliance. The Hittite king also recognized the ruling dynasty's right to the throne. Texts, however, suggest that an enormous tribute was paid to the Hittites.
Merchants figure prominently in Ugarit's archives. The citizens engaged in trade and many foreign merchants were based in the state, for example from Cyprus exchanging copper ingots in the shape of ox hides. The presence of Minoan and Mycenaean pottery suggests Aegean contacts with the city. It was also the central storage place for grain supplies moving from the wheat plains of northern Syria to the Hittite court.
The population was mixed with Canaanites (inhabitants of the Levant) and Hurrians from Syria and northern Mesopotamia. Foreign languages written in cuneiform at Ugarit include Akkadian, Hittite, Hurrian, and Cypro-Minoan. But most important is the local alphabetic script that records the native Semitic language "Ugaritic." From evidence at other sites, it is certain that most areas of the Levant used a variety of alphabetic scripts at this time. The Ugaritic examples survive because the writing was on clay using cuneiform signs, rather than drawn on hide, wood, or papyrus. While most of the texts are administrative, legal, and economic, there are also a large number of literary texts with close parallels to some of the poetry found in the Hebrew Bible.
Around 1150 B.C., the Hittite empire suddenly collapsed. Many letters of this late period are preserved at Ugarit and reveal a city suffering from raids by pirates. One of the groups, the Shikala, can be connected with "sea peoples" who appear in contemporary Egyptian inscriptions as a vast hoard of looting vandals. Whether the fall of the Hittites and Ugarit should be attributed to these people is not certain, and they may have been more a result than a cause. However, the magnificent palace, harbor, and much of the city were destroyed and Ugarit was never resettled.
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^^^ So should the people of Ugarit be regarded as Africans? It seems that if they began in 6-6,500 BC then in order to be regarded as Africans they would have had to have been migrants from Africa right before that and not have deeper roots in the region There is a time period at which people leave Africa and settle in places outside Africa that they adapt to new conditions and become considered non-Africans So it depends how far outside of Africa you still want to call part of Africa and for what reason Another point of view is that "Africa" and "non Africans" are useless terms all people in theory come from Africa and are therefore Africans. There could be a future time when people are differentiated by genetic markers in way disregarding geography.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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So should the people of Ugarit be regarded as Africans? It seems that if they began in 6-6,500 BC then in order to be regarded as Africans they would have had to have been migrants from Africa right before that and not have deeper roots in the region There is a time period at which people leave Africa and settle in places outside Africa that they adapt to new conditions and become considered non-Africans So it depends how far outside of Africa you still want to call part of Africa and for what reason Another point of view is that "Africa" and "non Africans" are useless terms all people in theory come from Africa and are therefore Africans. There could be a future time when people are differentiated by genetic markers in way disregarding geography.
It depends on the period when identifying people in Syria as African. Naturally 8000ya the people were probably Anu, and related to the Natufians.And as you know they also came from Africa.
The Ugarits after 2000 were mainly Africans who had migrated to the area recently, to replace the Anu people who went into decline after the great flood.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@Tukuler
Do you have anything on Herodotus saying the Phoenicians originated near the "Eritrea sea" aka the Red Sea? And thanks for addressing my posts. But your picture is not showing. And from what I've seen that Phoenician bust definitely appears to be Phoenician. Most sites I've seen label it as such. IIRC its from the Louvre Museum, Paris, France.
. I've read of old school ideas from the Phoenician themselves supposedly of them working up from the Red Sea after, I think, coming from a more remote location. Try one of the Rawlinson works (free online all volumes of the Histories and Five Great Monarchies).
Ardo EDIT: Oh, I guess you mean the boat. Some sites don't like direct linking and some sites block linking from ES. Gimme a sec to upload my copy of the plate from Borchardt. OK, did it. Slid it into the original post up above.
The Levant was an Egyptian province in pre and proto dynastic times and oscillated from free to subject status over the ages.
Clearly the bust is Egyptian as the cartouche makes plain. there were like 70 some 13th dyn kings. I spent hours paging through my hardcopy library looking for matches of the cartouche and the style of sculpture before posting my best guesses.
As you see, I am hyper-critical and don't necessarily trust what a museum says about a piece it "owns". Sometimes, though rarely so, they are wrong.
[ 07. October 2014, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Ardo ]
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: fvck your mother and your whole family
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: Lets not derail this thread Lioness. Just ignore.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ]It's too late you should have told Djehuti that I don't ignore anything everybody knows that
.
Um DJ, I take it somebody don't like how we pronounce Lion ess, so howsabout we honor tL's right of self-determination respecting the name. Now other folk don't mind nicknames, well go on and call them whatever they'll tolerate. But no more tL out of name calling. Don't turn tL on so she's all hot and bothered and ready to do you your moms and your family (are y'all sexual athletes or something?) OK.
tL, please help ES move out the red (rated X) and into the gold (PG-13, R) OK. We got a mod now and I'll accomodate reasonable requests. I've proven that to you.
Everbody, I don't read ever post. Something rub you raw? There's the !They gotsa go thread. Make it public gripe there so if I act on it the whole board can see it wasn't my idea if a post ot thread gotsta go! Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Nice map you made. No Afrocentric researcher I know of ever made this map.
I am surprised that you would make this map supporting the research of xyyman.
It does reflect his views that Arabians carry East African genes, while Europe generally given the presence of R1, as xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa.
I've read of old school ideas from the Phoenician themselves supposedly of them working up from the Red Sea after, I think, coming from a more remote location. Try one of the Rawlinson works (free online all volumes of the Histories and Five Great Monarchies).
Ardo EDIT: Oh, I guess you mean the boat. Some sites don't like direct linking and some sites block linking from ES. Gimme a sec to upload my copy of the plate from Borchardt. OK, did it. Slid it into the original post up above.
Its showing now. Thanks.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: The Levant was an Egyptian province in pre and proto dynastic times and oscillated from free to subject status over the ages.
And this is one of the reason that drove me into making this topic. And I think I said before on page one that the Egyptians considered the Levant apart of Egypt since they controlled it.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Clearly the bust is Egyptian as the cartouche makes plain. there were like 70 some 13th dyn kings. I spent hours paging through my hardcopy library looking for matches of the cartouche and the style of sculpture before posting my best guesses.
As you see, I am hyper-critical and don't necessarily trust what a museum says about a piece it "owns". Sometimes, though rarely so, they are wrong.
Noted.
And from past threads, you definitely know how to read some hieroglyphics. Like your past arguments here.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I think in the tale of Sinuhe or whatever is the AE notion that the Levant was just a submissive backwater but not a part of KM.t the way Wawat was or how later Kush was added as legitimate extensions.
The guy was living like a king in Retenu(?) but all he could think of was wallowing in the Nile silt of home.
quote:.. the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."
Strabo Geography 16:1:2
. A precision, the above reference is from Pliny the Elder Natural History 6.3.18 EDIT: Oops, you are correct. Pliny was quoting Strabo. I fouled up!
Otherwise I commend you on the Melanosyrii. Thanks for fleshing out the term with text left uncited by DJ back in 2010.
I have read texts about Leucosyrians but this is the first I've heard of Melanosyrians. Can anyone send me full texts with possible explanations about them??
quote:
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Now lets look at how some of these "Melanosyrians" of southern Levant/Canaan were depicted:
A supply ship. On deck, the captain is haranguing a crew of Canaanites. Painted wood, 12th Dynasty (2000-1785 BCE), Middle Kingdom, Egypt.
. My six year old: "Daddy, all those boat people are 'gyptians." So, I beg to differ w/t National Maritime Museum, Haifa, Israel.
Here are Canaanites on a boat with an Egyptian or two mucking with 'em. Ludwig Borchardt (1910) Das Grabdenkmal des Königs S'ahu-Re
I would also like more information about these Canaanite boatmen. Are the people painted the same color as Egyptians really Canaanites and if so, are there anymore such painted depictions??
I am really interested because depictions of Canaanites or at least black ones are rare to almost non-existent from what I can tell. I have seen one colorless engraving depicting Canaanites having the same features and wearing fillets like Egyptians on a Biblical history program and that's about it.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
More...
A Phoenician bust in the Egyptian style(from the Louvre)
. Phoenician bust or either * the pharaoh Senwosret II * the pharaoh Amenemhet II * one of the minor 13th dyn 'Sekhem' named pharaohs?
DJ or somebody please help me out w/t cartouche.
I find it difficult to believe the statue depicts a Phoenician man since the bust has all the features of Egyptian royalty i.e. a wadjet (uraeus) on his brow, and a royal shenu (cartouche) bearing a name inside. As for what the glyphs say, I can only make out the scarab which roughly translates as kpr and the sekhem staff conveying its name as well as a circle above which is either the sun or the symbol for pupil which is djedef. I don't know how to put it together especially as there are other glyphs in the bottom which I can't make out too well. Below the scarab is another circle and I think one glyph below that is an adze which says stp which means 'chosen' or 'choose' and below that looks like water ripples.
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posted
Just pointing out, the Phoenicians were heavily influenced by Nile Valley culture. So wouldn't some Phoenician bust resemble Egyptian? Again just pointing out.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
^ Yes but it depends on the 'resemblance'. The uraeaus and cartouche are emblems of Egyptian royalty ONLY.
In fact, now that I've done a cursory google search, I see that the statue is not of a Phoenician at all but of the Egyptian king Osorkon I of the 22nd dynasty!! Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes but it depends on the 'resemblance'. The uraeaus and cartouche are emblems of Egyptian royalty ONLY.
In fact, now that I've done a cursory google search, I see that the statue is not of a Phoenician at all but of the Egyptian king Osorkon I of the 22nd dynasty!!
Thanks for the correction!
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: C'mon DJ, this is just another photo spam clown antic by the Lioness,. TL's posted it earlier elsewhere.
"The fallacy of this argument is" there's not one Syrian in the bunch.
Of course.
quote:@ All For Syria, an author's context's necessary because of its various applications. But in general, Syria refers to north Levant while Palestine to south Levant. Syria isn't any of the Arabias. Levant means the eastern Mediterranean. It never means Mesopotamia, the Land between the Rivers (Tigris and Euphrates).
Be careful of compound terms like Syro Phoenicia. Remember, Syria derives from Ssur/Tsur/Tyre, Phoenicia's premier city (eg coterminous with Ssiydon, K*na'an's eldest "son").
Yes, I am aware of this. In fact according to both the Bible and Josephus blacks lived as far north as the mountains of Lebanon.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Note that most studies on Levantine genetic ancestry tend to focus on the Israel-Palestine area as well as Syria and Lebanon. You don't see as many studies on Jordan and the Sinai at least I don't.
You're right those three countries seem to be the only.
This bias only serves to eschew the picture of early Levantine populations, especially since even the Bible describes black peoples to their south in the Negev area, Jordan, and the Sinai, let alone the Arabian wilderness.
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @Tukuler
Do you have anything on Herodotus saying the Phoenicians originated near the "Eritrea sea" aka the Red Sea? And thanks for addressing my posts. But your picture is not showing. And from what I've seen that Phoenician bust definitely appears to be Phoenician. Most sites I've seen label it as such. IIRC its from the Louvre Museum, Paris, France.
You're referring to this passage from Herodotus' Histories: According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began the quarrel. These people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit, began at once, they say, to adventure on long voyages, freighting their vessels with the wares of Egypt and Assyria ...
A pretty good source on this issue is 'WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND DIODORUS SICULUS?' (look it up on google, since the forum won't allow me to post the link).
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Also Melanosyrians were just to described the dark complexioned Canaanites. I'm sorry to say that I am having some trouble finding a full explanation about them. But again like I said I remember the Greeks labeling the Phoenicians under them.
IMO these would be good examples of "Melanosyrians". Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^^^Do you have a source for that. Would appreciate it.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.ii.vi.html The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. For of the four sons of Ham, time has not at all hurt the name of Chus; for the Ethiopians, over whom he reigned, are even at this day, both by themselves and by all men in Asia, called Chusites. The memory also of the Mesraites is preserved in their name; for all we who inhabit this country [of Judea] called Egypt Mestre, and the Egyptians Mestreans. Phut also was the founder of Libya, and called the inhabitants Phutites, from himself: there is also a river in the country of Moors which bears that name; whence it is that we may see the greatest part of the Grecian historiographers mention that river and the adjoining country by the apellation of Phut: but the name it has now has been by change given it from one of the sons of Mesraim, who was called Lybyos. We will inform you presently what has been the occasion why it has been called Africa also. Canaan, the fourth son of Ham, inhabited the country now called Judea, and called it from his own name Canaan. The children of these [four] were these: Sabas, who founded the Sabeans; Evilas, who founded the Evileans, who are called Getuli; Sabathes founded the Sabathens, they are now called by the Greeks Astaborans; Sabactas settled the Sabactens; and Ragmus the Ragmeans; and he had two sons, the one of whom, Judadas, settled the Judadeans, a nation of the western Ethiopians, and left them his name; as did Sabas to the Sabeans: but Nimrod, the son of Chus, staid and tyrannized at Babylon, as we have already informed you. Now all the children of Mesraim, being eight in number, possessed the country from Gaza to Egypt, though it retained the name of one only, the Philistim; for the Greeks call part of that country Palestine. As for the rest, Ludieim, and Enemim, and Labim, who alone inhabited in Libya, and called the country from himself, Nedim, and Phethrosim, and Chesloim, and Cephthorim, we know nothing of them besides their names; for the Ethiopic war49 which we shall describe hereafter, was the cause that those cities were overthrown. The sons of Canaan were these: Sidonius, who also built a city of the same name; it is called by the Greeks SidonPosts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: This bias only serves to eschew the picture of early Levantine populations, especially since even the Bible describes black peoples to their south in the Negev area, Jordan, and the Sinai, let alone the Arabian wilderness.
Indeed. I also heard of Arabia mostly being sparsely populated around that time.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: You're referring to this passage from Herodotus' Histories: According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began the quarrel. These people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit, began at once, they say, to adventure on long voyages, freighting their vessels with the wares of Egypt and Assyria ...
A pretty good source on this issue is 'WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND DIODORUS SICULUS?' (look it up on google, since the forum won't allow me to post the link).
Again this makes since considering the Phoenicians were counted under the "darker skinned" Syrians by the Greeks. And if that Y-DNA.
A source I posted by Europedia is to go by then it would make sense that the Phoenicians carried E-V22. And thanks. You and Tukuler have been good help.
Posts: 1891 | From: NY | Registered: Sep 2014
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Also Melanosyrians were just to described the dark complexioned Canaanites. I'm sorry to say that I am having some trouble finding a full explanation about them. But again like I said I remember the Greeks labeling the Phoenicians under them.
IMO these would be good examples of "Melanosyrians".
The above mural (in much better photo) was posted in this forum countless times for years now.
The above portrays Syrians in general, but note that most are yellowish brown in color while a couple are very dark.
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Let's also not forget about the ethnic diversity in the Levant at that time. Many people tend to focus too much on Biblical texts when the Egyptians themselves give a whole list of names of tribes and ethnicities not mentioned in the Bible.
Can anyone find Egyptian texts of such lists and or descriptions of these peoples??
Posts: 26267 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: ^^^Do you have a source for that. Would appreciate it.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.ii.vi.html The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. For of the four sons of Ham, time has not at all hurt the name of Chus; for the Ethiopians, over whom he reigned, are even at this day, both by themselves and by all men in Asia, called Chusites. The memory also of the Mesraites is preserved in their name; for all we who inhabit this country [of Judea] called Egypt Mestre, and the Egyptians Mestreans. Phut also was the founder of Libya, and called the inhabitants Phutites, from himself: there is also a river in the country of Moors which bears that name; whence it is that we may see the greatest part of the Grecian historiographers mention that river and the adjoining country by the apellation of Phut: but the name it has now has been by change given it from one of the sons of Mesraim, who was called Lybyos. We will inform you presently what has been the occasion why it has been called Africa also. Canaan, the fourth son of Ham, inhabited the country now called Judea, and called it from his own name Canaan. The children of these [four] were these: Sabas, who founded the Sabeans; Evilas, who founded the Evileans, who are called Getuli; Sabathes founded the Sabathens, they are now called by the Greeks Astaborans; Sabactas settled the Sabactens; and Ragmus the Ragmeans; and he had two sons, the one of whom, Judadas, settled the Judadeans, a nation of the western Ethiopians, and left them his name; as did Sabas to the Sabeans: but Nimrod, the son of Chus, staid and tyrannized at Babylon, as we have already informed you. Now all the children of Mesraim, being eight in number, possessed the country from Gaza to Egypt, though it retained the name of one only, the Philistim; for the Greeks call part of that country Palestine. As for the rest, Ludieim, and Enemim, and Labim, who alone inhabited in Libya, and called the country from himself, Nedim, and Phethrosim, and Chesloim, and Cephthorim, we know nothing of them besides their names; for the Ethiopic war49 which we shall describe hereafter, was the cause that those cities were overthrown. The sons of Canaan were these: Sidonius, who also built a city of the same name; it is called by the Greeks Sidon
posted
I'm aware some of these photos been posted on here from looking through older thread. My point was giving an example on how the "melanosyrians' would've looked like.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus: @DJ
Also Melanosyrians were just to described the dark complexioned Canaanites. I'm sorry to say that I am having some trouble finding a full explanation about them. But again like I said I remember the Greeks labeling the Phoenicians under them.
IMO these would be good examples of "Melanosyrians".
The above mural (in much better photo) was posted in this forum countless times for years now.
The above portrays Syrians in general, but note that most are yellowish brown in color while a couple are very dark.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Let's also not forget about the ethnic diversity in the Levant at that time. Many people tend to focus too much on Biblical texts when the Egyptians themselves give a whole list of names of tribes and ethnicities not mentioned in the Bible.
Can anyone find Egyptian texts of such lists and or descriptions of these peoples??
Wouldn't be surprised if the Levant showed ethic diversity like the Nile Valley. The Greeks/Romans already touched base on the two different Syrian branches. Though I know thats not enough in terms of what your asking.
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quote:The Cushite origin of these cities is so plain that those most influenced by the strange monomania which transforms the Phoenicians into Semites now admit that the Cushites were the civilizers of Phoenicia.
posted
A PHOENICIAN LIMESTONE SARCOPHAGUS LID CIRCA 5TH-4TH CENTURY B.C.
Phoenician - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man
Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC. Classical Period. Grave marker depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus).
Phoenician coffin, c5th BC White marble anthropoid coffin
Phoenician, 5th century BC From Sidon, Lebanon
Reflecting the wealth of the city of Sidon
This white marble coffin is typical of a large number found in the nineteenth century at Sidon, one of the wealthy Canaanite (Phoenician) ports of the first millennium BC. Canaanite territory at this time was restricted to the coast and included the cities of Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, Aradus and Marathus. These centres produced objects of superb quality to meet the demands of the great powers of the Near East from Egypt to Mesopotamia and Iran. They also extracted and processed a dye from the murex sea shell which was used to create the most valuable and sought-after purple fabrics. It is from the Greek word for this colour, phoinix, that these Canaanites have acquired the name Phoenician. Their close trading links with Egypt influenced their burial practices and the male head on this coffin wears a headdress in Egyptian style. The quality of the stone work suggest the owner must have been wealthy.
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I don't think I've seen this before!!! Yeah I already started reading through the thread you linked. Seen a character named "Evil Euro", I think he's a mod on that Euronut site "Racial Realities". But yeah this study you posted support African migration into the Levant.
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