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• The Egyptian writers/historians Cheremon and Manetho propose
  an expelling of Aamw but neither posits Akhnaton not Tutmosis
  
  The Torah of Moshe extensively details laws of leprosy (which trait
  ties in with the Egyptians' account). Biblical leprosy wasn't Hanson's
  disease but an affliction which in humans turns the skin pale and the
  hair yellow or white. Lepers who turned pale from head to foot could
  pass the trait on to their descendents and were not considered impure
  by Torah law.
  
  Manetho writes of two royal advisors [of Ramses II]
  suggesting the expulsion of a population of "lepers"
  and such from Egypt which we infer as the origins of
  the Judeans of Manetho's time. He writes that those
  to be cast out were led by a man named Osarsif from
  Heliopolis who changed his name to Moses demanding
  of the "impure" people stationed in Avaris that they slay
  roast and eat the sacred animals and cease worship of
  the gods. The then reigning pharaoh was supposed to
  have fought the impure people and their foreign allies
  to the point of persuing those in retreat clear to the
  border of Syria.
  
  Another Egyptian writer, Cheremon, tells a similar story as
  compared to the ones in the Torah and of Manetho. Cheremon
  makes Yoseph a conspirator alongside Moshe!?! This author
  also introduces a character who, after as a babe being born
  of a mother who concealed herself in a cave, delivers Egypt
  from the polluted ones when he grows up.
  
  Manetho gives these royal names in his version:
  
  0) Ramses - father of Amenophis
  1) Amenophis
  2) Sethos Ramses - son of Amenophis
  
  Cheremon mentions:
  
  1) Amenophis
  2) Messene - his son
  
  Torah tells us the Hebrews worked on the cities Pithom and Raamses.
  If so, the Exodus had to happen after there was a Ramses.
  Currently Egyptologists know of these successive 19th
  dynasty pharaohs. They fit Torah, Manetho and Cheremon:
  
  1) _Ramses I_ -1307
  2) _Sethos I__ -1306
  3) _Ramses II_ -1290 (as Manetho's Ramses)
  4) _Merneptah -1224 (as Manetho's and Cheremon's Amenophis)
  5a) Sethos II_ -1214 (as Manetho's Sethos grandson of Ramses son of Amenophis)
  5b) Amenmesse co-regent w/Sethos II (as Cheremon's Messene son of Amenophis)
  
  Seeing Manetho and Cheremon possibly using the name Amenophis
  for Merneptah -- of "Israel stele" fame --, their sequence otherwise
  fits known history though the dates are skewed by 100 years when
  compared with the Jewish reckoning of circa 1313 BCE (i.e., 2448 AM)
  as the year of the Exodus.
  
  Still, knowing Moshe was 80 at the Exodus and 80 years before
  Merneptah's reign gives -1304 to -1294 for the beginning years
  of repair work on Pithom and Raamses which allows the latter city
  to be named in honor of Ramses I.
  
  I used Josephus, his fragments of Manetho and Cheremon, as my source.
  Against Apion I.25 through I.35 http://www.fullbooks.com/Against-Apion1.html

• In the Kmty record neither Cheremon nor Manetho make Hyksos out of
  the leper expellees. They rather state the expellees recruited Hyksos
  descendants already living in the Levant to come and assist them.
  
  Then there's Merneptah's "Israel" stela. Doesn't say much except that
  Merenptah anihilated a beduin group with a name very similar if not
  identical to the Semitic word YSR'L. And the Hebrews do have a
  recollection of a fragment of a tribe leaving KM.t a generation before
  the Exodus. They say that tribal fragment was wiped out. Later Judaean
  commentary suggests the reason the Exodus wended through Sinai was to
  avoid the disheartenment of seeing the remains of that decimated host.

Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by alTakruri:


As a postscript
Mereneptah's so-called "Israel stele"
lends reason to posit Ramses II as a
contender for pharaoh of the Exodus
except there is a midrash intimating
a pre-Moses exodus that failed with
all the flee-ers slain which tends
to a post-Ramses II exodus as in
Cheremon and Manetho.

• In the Kmty record neither Cheremon nor Manetho make Hyksos out of
  the leper expellees. They rather state the expellees recruited Hyksos
  descendants already living in the Levant to come and assist them.
  
  Then there's Merneptah's "Israel" stela. Doesn't say much except that
  Merenptah anihilated a beduin group with a name very similar if not
  identical to the Semitic word YSR'L. And the Hebrews do have a
  recollection of a fragment of a tribe leaving KM.t a generation before
  the Exodus. They say that tribal fragment was wiped out. Later Judaean
  commentary suggests the reason the Exodus wended through Sinai was to
  avoid the disheartenment of seeing the remains of that decimated host.

[/QB]

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Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by the lioness,:


here's a bible archaeology website arguing Thutmose III

I haven't looked at it closely but it;s highly detailed


http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-date-1440bc.htm

17 reasons why Thutmoses III is the Exodus Pharaoh:

1) "Moses" derives his name from Thutmoses I and the "Thutmoses" dynasty of kings. Thutmoses I was the father of Hatshepsut who named Moses. This is obviously where Moses got his name, not from the 19th dynasty era of Rameses II. Because archeologists generally dismiss the exodus as a Bible myth, they actually chose any variant of the correct, "Thutmoses" that breaks any connection with "Moses". These variant spellings include: Tuthmosis, Thuthmose, Thutmose. Remember that the name "Thutmoses" was written in hieroglyphics (pictures), but the name Moses is written in Hebrew and Greek. Because we are certain of how Moses' name was spelled in English, and because we know he got his name from the Hatshepsut. the daughter of Thutmoses I, the modern archeological world, and all Bible students would be both prudent and correct to begin spelling the 18th dynasty pharaohs as "Thutmoses". This is a case of using the inspired text of the Bible to teach us how to correctly spell the Thutmoses dynasty of kings of Egypt!

2) Hatshepsut is "Pharaoh's daughter" who adopted Moses:
Hatshepsut, is the only candidate for the "Pharaoh's daughter" who drew Moses out of the Nile. Born in 1541 BC, she would have been 15 when Moses was born in 1526. Hatshepsut's father was Thutmoses I and her mother was Queen Amoses. Queen Ahmose had four children with Thutmosis I, but three died young leaving Hatshepsut as the only person who could wear the title of "Pharaoh's daughter". (Ex 2:7-10; Acts 7:21; Heb 11:24) The bible says that pharaoh's daughter adopted Moses out of pity. However, since she was unable to ever bear a son to Thutmoses II, Moses became her only chance for personal succession. This all changed when Moses was about 30, when Thutmoses II's second wife named Iset, bore him a son named Thutmoses III. Remember that Thutmoses II was Hatshepsut's step-brother whom she married jointly and raised Moses to adulthood. Moses was heir apparent, until Thutmoses III was born when Moses was 30 in 1496 BC.


__________________________________

15 more reasons at link


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Thutmose is another Greek/Anglo name. The restored 'Semite' nose is fraudulent on principle and it gets worse on examination. It's dubious for a person in ancient history to have have facial features based on recent linguistic terminology.

Thutmose was not his name and he did not look like that however historic falsification have a tendency to fool 'white daddied' historians. I get that the article does not make that case. It even displays the mummy and other bust however his name and the restorations sent people on the myth maker chase.

At one point this article makes the case that:

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Egyptian chronology is a mess and must be grounded upon Biblical dating: The Bible is the far more reliable dating system for historical chronology and synchronisms

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Jesus...

Ok

Let's be realistic. The Biblical exodus never happened. Another Exodus might have.

Egyptian history doesn't just display a lack of evidence for it. If you look closer you can see how it was created. The movie, The Usual Suspects reminded me of the the nature this lie.

The word Pharaoh is also Greek which suggest that this was written more than 1,000 years after the Exodus. Already we are playing a game of telephone. I theorize that it was worse than telephone. It was butt hurt telephone.

The Hyksos Pharaohs had no names and neither did the Exodus Pharaoh. Why not? The Bible mentions Taharqa by name.

So put me in the camp that believes that the Biblical Pharaoh was a Hyksos and that Moses was a stolen story by butt hurt expelled Hyksos.

The story of Ahmose parallels the story of Moses. He was the great patriarch and slave liberator. He was an incest born foreign mixed prince who freed slaves and built the only pyramid in the age. If any Pyramid was built with slave labor it was probably that pyramid since it's the only time Egyptians were enslaved on their own soil and they may have taken slaves after the Hyksos were overthrown. It was also a terrible piece of work.

Like the Usual Suspects the authors could see that Ahmose

Married a black woman by skin tone since the black race did not exist; they heard stories about wizard battles and plagues that would later enter the Exodus. You can further dissect the Exodus story and find such occurrences that were originally in Egyptian culture and literature. Building in the land of Ramses is another example which is why Ramses II is often attributed.

When there are pieces of the story scattered in Egyptian history while the actual story isn't there at all the logical conclusion is that the story was based on myths borrowed from people who left with little but a cursory knowledge that was put together in a way to make them seem not the overthrown and still illiterate slaver. These slavers hooked up the story nicely parting the red sea Djadjamankh style 2 million strong running from a handful of chariots before going on to massacre and enslave people in the name of a god.

Or I'm wrong and the Bible is the far more reliable dating system for historical chronology and synchronisms (is that a word?) and there are tyrannically deities who grant magical Sea splitting powers to murderous homeless cattle herders.

Posts: 1254 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | 

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Reflections on the Classification of the New Kingdom
Divine Birth Cycle as a Ritual

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Posts: 8897 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

^ Interesting point about that Midrash stating there was a prior attempt at 'Exodus'.

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This brings to mind the fact that ever since the Hyksos invasion if not earlier wasn't there constant movements back and forth between the Delta and Levant?

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... do you know of any clues to cryptic references in the Torah as there are plenty of them in the TNK? And what about the Ten Plagues including the 10th that killed pharaohs son? Where do these fit chronologically?

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What do you make of the Hebrew's relation to the Hyksos?

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We're familiar with the story of Joseph and his family seeking refuge in Kmt to escape a famine but how does this event chronologically tie in with the Hyksos presence in Kmt as the texts you speak say that Hyskos descendants in the Levant aided them?

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The famous painting in
Khnum Hotep II's tomb shows them
intercepted by customs and security.
These Aamu of Shu were checked in
in the Eastern Desert anywhere as
far south as Wadi Hammamat. Khnum
administered the 11-12th Dynasty
Eastern Desert,keeping desert
Chaos at bay for Balance.

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I ask these questions because there are many naysayers mainly from the atheist secular side who tend to dismiss Biblical stories are purely fictional or made up, then there are others from the other side-- the zealot fundamentalist side who insist everything happened exactly as stated without any historical context.

And then you have guys like Simcha Jacobovici, a Canadian Ashkenazi journalist and film-maker popularly known as the 'Naked Archaeologist' and friend of Hollywood's James Cameron who produced 2006 History Channel documentary The Exodus Decoded.

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As Xyyman might say: "below my pay grade"

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I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Doug M:

The Bible is a story based on fables and narratives based around a single group of people: the Hebrews. It is based on the blind faith in the passages not literal facts and evidence. It uses actual historical people and places as the basis for its own validity, but is not a historical text.

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There are parallels between the Biblical narratives and historical records from Egypt and elsewhere to corroborate the narrative. But those parallels cover the full extent of Ancient Egypt's history from Old Kingdom to late period. Which again reinforces the point that the bible is not a literal historical narrative. So lets start with the books of the bible and writing itself. The fact is the earliest writing came from the AE and therefore influenced the development of writing in the Levant...

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Most of the earliest existing fragments of the bible or scrolls were found in Egypt after the Greek period. These writings did not come directly from Israel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library

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So in that context, it must be understood that much of the bible is of later writers from the Greek and Roman era interpreting ancient histories according to their own historical narrative. For example, we know no Asiatic slaves built the great pyramid, yet the great pyramids are referenced in the Bible? So did the Exodus happen in the Old Kingdom? Probably not. Then you have the references to plagues and storms which affected Egypt, many of which did occur in Egypt during the late Old Kingdom and Early Middle Kingdom. So did the Exodus happen then? Probably not. The point is that during the Greco-Roman era, when the Bible and Early Chistianity were formulated in Egypt, many writers have tried to historical events from Egypt to the story of the bible. Manetho and Josephus are examples of that.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela

https://www.thetorah.com/article/joseph-and-the-famine-the-storys-origins-in-egyptian-history

Then on top of all of that you have the cultural parallels between ancient Egypt and the Bible. For example, the story of Moses himself. "Mose" was a popular surname in Egypt meaning "who is born" or "is born". For example Thuthmose means "thoth is born". In the language of the ancients it was "Djehutimes" or "Djehuti is born". This idea of being born of the gods when ascending to the throne was a key part of the rituals of the throne in ancient times. Each King went through a ceremony to become the living embodiment of whichever deity they chose and that became their throne name. And during the 18th dynasty this reached its greatest extent with all the symbolism of the AE cosmology. Hence "Moses" As part of this ritual the King is born from Isis as the "immaculate conception" of the god. Thoth/Djehuti is considered the god of writing and thought and thus Djehutimes is almost literally similar to "word is born". And as part of these ceremonies were the processions of the Royal and sacred barques in the Nile which was the symbol of life and birth. And hence Moses, has a similar narrative for his birth and life in Egypt which parallels the historical and cultural practices of Egypt. But did the exodus happen in the 18th dynasty? Probably not.

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Reflections on the Classification of the New Kingdom
Divine Birth Cycle as a Ritual

https://journal.fi/scripta/article/view/67291

This is not to mention the various wisdom texts and other iconography which have parallels in the bible such as the 42 negative confessions which are paralleled by the 10 commandments. Therefore, it is impossible to use the Bible as a literal historical narrative especially concerning the exodus. There could have been many cases of Asiatics invading and being expelled from Egypt over the dynastic period. And later writers simply fused various historical events and cultural elements to produce a narrative.

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Posts: 26285 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Not just Egypt but Mesopotamia, specifically Babylonia as well. In fact two major mythological parallels namely the Garden of Eden and the Great Flood tie in with Babylonian beliefs but not with Egypt. In fact Egypt was considered unique for not having a flood myth though it put them on par with other African civilizations who also lacked a flood myth. Israel being located in the literal crossroad between the Nile Valley and Mesopotamia it's no surprise its myths had elements of both regions. Also is the tradition of exile in both regions first in Egypt and then in Babylonia though tradition claim the Hebrews had their origins in Mesopotamia anyway.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Yes especially Christianity which developed in Hellenistic Levant and Egypt. I believe Egypt was a key place in the development of Christianity and not just Israel. The story of Mary and Joseph fleeing into Egypt with baby Jesus to escape Herod's forces and the apocrypha surrounding Jesus childhood there are big hints.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
How are the pyramids referenced? I don't recall any passage of Hebrews building them. It's likely reference is made to the Pyramids since they were the largest known man-made structures in the world.

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This comes from Hollywood of course But seriously this is found in Christian circles outside the bible:
https://www.fringepop321.com/did-the-israelites-build-the-pyramids.htm

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Isis never conceived "immaculately" but I get your point. It was a tradition that became common throughout the New Kingdom that the pharaoh is born of divine union between his mother and a god and the nativity of the pharaoh is celebrated. By the way, Moses being placed in a tiny ark in a river and being found in the bulrushes echoes the story of King Sargon of Akkad!

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
The style of liturgical poems like the Psalms come from a style credited to the world's earliest author Princess Enheduanna the daughter of Sargon of Akkad and high-priestess of Inanna. While the style of architecture they used for the Jerusalem temple is based on Egyptian.

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Osarseph is a legendary figure of Ancient Egypt who has been equated with Moses. His story was recounted by the Ptolemaic Egyptian historian Manetho in his Aigyptiaca (first half of the 3rd century BC); Manetho's work is lost, but the 1st century AD Jewish historian Josephus quotes extensively from it.

The story depicts Osarseph as a renegade Egyptian priest who leads an army of lepers and other unclean people against a pharaoh named Amenophis; the pharaoh is driven out of the country and the leper-army, in alliance with the Hyksos (whose story is also told by Manetho) ravage Egypt, committing many sacrileges against the gods, before Amenophis returns and expels them. Towards the end of the story Osarseph changes his name to Moses.[1]

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Master of the three roads,
before you stands a man who has walked on his feet,
Walked on his belly, walked on his backside,
Since Elam, since Akkad, since Sumer.

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Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged |