( ^ see blog archive at left for earlier articles)
SATURDAY, MAY 30, 2015 Thuya Related to Dynasty 20?? I was going over the autosomal DNA of Ramesses III and that of his son, "Unknown Man E", who could be Pentaweret--when I noticed that some of their alleles at the various loci looked familiar. Then I recalled where I had seen them previously. In the autosomal DNA of Thuya--the mother of Queen Tiye!
Thuya was the wife of Yuya, who seems to have been a relative of Amunhotep III. But Yuya and Thuya don't appear to be closely related at all, according to their DNA profiles. In fact, old Thuya has much more in common, genetically, with the men of Dynasty 20! Why this would be I am not at all sure. A man called Setnakht was the founder of the 20th Dynasty. We have no idea who he was, but the evidence points to his having had a brief reign. Ramesses III was most certainly the son of Setnakht and "Unknown Man E" the son of Ramesses III, according to their autosomal DNA profiles. The mother of "Unknown Man E" was named Tiye. But see this at the various markers or loci:
CSF1P0
Ram. III 7/10 Unknown E 7/10 Thuya 7/12
D7S820
Ram. III 6/15 Unknown E 6/13 Thuya 10/13
D2S1338
Ram. III 15/28 Unknown E 19/28 Thuya 19/26
D21S11
Ram. III 28/35 Unknown E 29.2/35 Thuya 26/35
D16S539
Ram. III 8/11 Unknown E 8/12 Thuya 11/13
D18S51
Ram. III 8/12 Unknown E 12/26 Thuya 8/19
FGA
Ram. III 24/34.2 Unknown E 24/26 Thuya 24/26
D13S317
Ram. III 9/12 Unknown E 9/13 Thuya 9/12
As you can see, Thuya does not fail to have at least one matching allele to either the father or the son at eight microsatellites or loci. I'll have to investigate further, if possible. The distance in time between Thuya and these men can be roughly calculated. One can estimate that the mother of Queen Tiye died in Year 30 of Amunhotep III. Allowing for an 8-year coregency between that pharaoh and Akhenaten [in which I have come to believe] the ensuing reigns up to Setnakht add up to about 155 years. We can't be certain of the durations of all the kings involved. Since Setnakht had a short reign [only up to Year 4 attested] it may be that he was not young and had been born during the long kingship of Ramesses II. Autosomal DNA can reveal near relatives as well as distant ones.
"Unknown Man E", probably Prince Pentaweret, was involved in a plot against his father and Tiye, his mother, was also accused. Evidently, these two believed Pentaweret had a strong claim to the throne. Thuya, for her part, appears to have had a connection to both Ramesses III and the mother of "Unknown Man E", according to the DNA.
_____________________________________________ In 1999 Marianne Luban, an independent scholar, was the first to identify a female from the tomb of Amunhotep II as being a likely candidate for the mummy of the famed beauty, Queen Nefertiti of Dynasty 18. Ever since that time, Luban has continued her investigation into the matter. This book represents a work of detection, involving texts, images, and DNA, to which the author devotes an entire fascinating chapter.
FRIDAY, MAY 15, 2015 MY QUEST FOR NEFERTITI
My latest book! Don't miss it because I devote an entire chapter to the DNA of the royal mummies and make it easy to understand with a brief tutorial. I also explain the rare alleles of the autosomal DNA in the extended family of Tutankhamun and where they can be found outside of Egypt. It's quite fascinating, really, and more than a little mysterious. I think it's important that persons with an interest in Egyptology begin to get a better handle on how all that works because it's a new facet of the field and isn't going to go away. At least I hope not! There are so many things in “My Quest For Nefertiti” that aren't discussed in any other book about the Amarna Era. You may never view the royal family at the end of the 18th Dynasty in the same way again.
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2014 Next Generation Sequencing and Egyptian Mummies This is the first study on Egyptian mummies [albeit Late Period ones] that I know of using the technique of Next Generation Sequencing:
FRIDAY, AUGUST 29, 2014 Where Is the DNA of Thutmose IV?
Recently, I wrote an email to the Secretary-general of the SCA in Egypt, asking for publication of the autosomal DNA of the pharaoh Thutmose IV, as I feel our understanding of the 18th Dynasty can go no farther without this information. Ever since Zahi Hawass et al published the DNA testing results of Tutankhamun and his family members in JAMA, people have found it odd that Thutmose IV was not included in the study. His mummy is fairly securely identified and, besides, the face resembles his own portraits from antiquity and also bears some resemblance to the head of the mummy of his father, Amenhotep II.
Amenhotep III was tested and so was the mummy formerly called "the Elder Lady", long thought by some, including myself, to be Queen Tiye. This was confirmed, as her DNA showed her to have been the daughter of Yuya and Thuya, also included in the study. Moreover, it looks quite likely that Yuya was a relative of Amenhotep III, a rather surprising and not insignificant development. We do not, evidently, have the mummy of Mutemwia, the mother of Amenhotep III, but there is Thutmose IV for sure. Had this last been tested, it would have been possible to know if Yuya was related to Nebmaare Amenhotep on the paternal or maternal side. Persons are speculating that Yuya was a brother to Mutemwia, but I do not concur, as one can see in my paper, "The Name of Thuya", which can be read here:
It is up to the Egyptians to explain why Thutmose IV was left out of the DNA study or publication when it would seem his inclusion might have answered some questions that arose out of the study, itself.
___________________________________
MONDAY, JUNE 23, 2014 DNA of the 12 Tribes I don't completely get what the people who have this "Etz Yoseph" page think they can accomplish. Evidently, they believe the 12 Tribes of Israel can be identified via DNA--and perhaps each tribe will have its own y-haplogroup. I placed a comment on the page, saying that if one believes in these 12 tribes and that the founders were all sons of Jacob, the yDNA of all should belong to the same haplogroup. A father passes on his yDNA to all his sons and this continues as long as the male generations exist. I also wrote that, to account for the varying haplogroups of the Jews, one needs to recall that even the Torah states that a "mixed multitude" left Egypt under the leadership of Moses.
Exodus 12:38..."Now the sons of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, aside from children. A mixed multitude also went up with them, along with flocks and herds, a very large number of livestock."
With the giving of the Law of Moses is when the Jewish religion really began, but a religion has no DNA. Converts, such as the Khazars, have to be taken into account, as well. Otherwise, for a very long time, he who professes to be a Jew is considered a Jew as long as he has a Jewish mother--so the yDNA [male lineage] is not essential to the question "Who is a Jew" let alone can indicate to which original tribe ones ancestors belonged. In the days of persecutions and pogroms, a Jewish woman can have found herself impregnated by a non-Jewish rapist. The comments on that site are moderated and mine was not published. As it was reasonably worded, I don't know why--unless my words went contra some agenda.
As far as I can tell, the Messianic Jews [people who believe Jesus is the Messiah] who run that website are urging Jews to undergo DNA testing in order to find some lost tribe. That's what I gather, but if I am wrong they can come here and correct me. However, if that is what they are advocating--that the yDNA of Jewish males can be separated into "tribes"--then I think that is not possible now--nor will it ever be. While some over the many years have referred to Jews as belonging to a "race", the Jews, themselves, claim to be a "people". They know they are not descended of one stock alone as, for one thing, the descendants of Jacob lived in Egypt for 400 years, they would have mixed their blood with Egyptians, both males and females. There was nothing at all to prevent it.
Posts: 42932 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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( ^ see blog archive at left for earlier articles)
SATURDAY, MAY 30, 2015 Thuya Related to Dynasty 20?? I was going over the autosomal DNA of Ramesses III and that of his son, "Unknown Man E", who could be Pentaweret--when I noticed that some of their alleles at the various loci looked familiar. Then I recalled where I had seen them previously. In the autosomal DNA of Thuya--the mother of Queen Tiye!
Thuya was the wife of Yuya, who seems to have been a relative of Amunhotep III. But Yuya and Thuya don't appear to be closely related at all, according to their DNA profiles. In fact, old Thuya has much more in common, genetically, with the men of Dynasty 20! Why this would be I am not at all sure. A man called Setnakht was the founder of the 20th Dynasty. We have no idea who he was, but the evidence points to his having had a brief reign. Ramesses III was most certainly the son of Setnakht and "Unknown Man E" the son of Ramesses III, according to their autosomal DNA profiles. The mother of "Unknown Man E" was named Tiye. But see this at the various markers or loci:
CSF1P0
Ram. III 7/10 Unknown E 7/10 Thuya 7/12
D7S820
Ram. III 6/15 Unknown E 6/13 Thuya 10/13
D2S1338
Ram. III 15/28 Unknown E 19/28 Thuya 19/26
D21S11
Ram. III 28/35 Unknown E 29.2/35 Thuya 26/35
D16S539
Ram. III 8/11 Unknown E 8/12 Thuya 11/13
D18S51
Ram. III 8/12 Unknown E 12/26 Thuya 8/19
FGA
Ram. III 24/34.2 Unknown E 24/26 Thuya 24/26
D13S317
Ram. III 9/12 Unknown E 9/13 Thuya 9/12
As you can see, Thuya does not fail to have at least one matching allele to either the father or the son at eight microsatellites or loci. I'll have to investigate further, if possible. The distance in time between Thuya and these men can be roughly calculated. One can estimate that the mother of Queen Tiye died in Year 30 of Amunhotep III. Allowing for an 8-year coregency between that pharaoh and Akhenaten [in which I have come to believe] the ensuing reigns up to Setnakht add up to about 155 years. We can't be certain of the durations of all the kings involved. Since Setnakht had a short reign [only up to Year 4 attested] it may be that he was not young and had been born during the long kingship of Ramesses II. Autosomal DNA can reveal near relatives as well as distant ones.
"Unknown Man E", probably Prince Pentaweret, was involved in a plot against his father and Tiye, his mother, was also accused. Evidently, these two believed Pentaweret had a strong claim to the throne. Thuya, for her part, appears to have had a connection to both Ramesses III and the mother of "Unknown Man E", according to the DNA.
_____________________________________________ In 1999 Marianne Luban, an independent scholar, was the first to identify a female from the tomb of Amunhotep II as being a likely candidate for the mummy of the famed beauty, Queen Nefertiti of Dynasty 18. Ever since that time, Luban has continued her investigation into the matter. This book represents a work of detection, involving texts, images, and DNA, to which the author devotes an entire fascinating chapter.
FRIDAY, MAY 15, 2015 MY QUEST FOR NEFERTITI
My latest book! Don't miss it because I devote an entire chapter to the DNA of the royal mummies and make it easy to understand with a brief tutorial. I also explain the rare alleles of the autosomal DNA in the extended family of Tutankhamun and where they can be found outside of Egypt. It's quite fascinating, really, and more than a little mysterious. I think it's important that persons with an interest in Egyptology begin to get a better handle on how all that works because it's a new facet of the field and isn't going to go away. At least I hope not! There are so many things in “My Quest For Nefertiti” that aren't discussed in any other book about the Amarna Era. You may never view the royal family at the end of the 18th Dynasty in the same way again.
FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2014 Next Generation Sequencing and Egyptian Mummies This is the first study on Egyptian mummies [albeit Late Period ones] that I know of using the technique of Next Generation Sequencing:
FRIDAY, AUGUST 29, 2014 Where Is the DNA of Thutmose IV?
Recently, I wrote an email to the Secretary-general of the SCA in Egypt, asking for publication of the autosomal DNA of the pharaoh Thutmose IV, as I feel our understanding of the 18th Dynasty can go no farther without this information. Ever since Zahi Hawass et al published the DNA testing results of Tutankhamun and his family members in JAMA, people have found it odd that Thutmose IV was not included in the study. His mummy is fairly securely identified and, besides, the face resembles his own portraits from antiquity and also bears some resemblance to the head of the mummy of his father, Amenhotep II.
Amenhotep III was tested and so was the mummy formerly called "the Elder Lady", long thought by some, including myself, to be Queen Tiye. This was confirmed, as her DNA showed her to have been the daughter of Yuya and Thuya, also included in the study. Moreover, it looks quite likely that Yuya was a relative of Amenhotep III, a rather surprising and not insignificant development. We do not, evidently, have the mummy of Mutemwia, the mother of Amenhotep III, but there is Thutmose IV for sure. Had this last been tested, it would have been possible to know if Yuya was related to Nebmaare Amenhotep on the paternal or maternal side. Persons are speculating that Yuya was a brother to Mutemwia, but I do not concur, as one can see in my paper, "The Name of Thuya", which can be read here:
It is up to the Egyptians to explain why Thutmose IV was left out of the DNA study or publication when it would seem his inclusion might have answered some questions that arose out of the study, itself.
This reminds me of a thread I created a couple of years back here: Was Akhenaten Really Tut's Father?? Unfortunately the forum at that time was caught up in another round of racial b.s. so nobody paid attention!
Autosomal DNA, especially STRs are valuable for sorting out the whole mess of familial relations for the royal mummies. As for Ms. Luban's findings I wouldn't at all be surprised. I still think a great deal of the Egyptian royal families practiced a mother-right or matrilineal tradition of some sort with maternal relatives playing a significant role, hence the incest via sister or cousin marriages.
I will say that Ms. Luban's findings to seem to correlate with the cranial data as found in P.K. Manansala's findings In terms of head shape, the XVIV and XX dynasties look more like the early Nubian skulls from the mesolithic with low vaults and sloping, curved foreheads. The XVII and XVIII dynasty skulls are shaped more like modern Nubians with globular skulls and high vaults. Merenptah, Siptah and Ramesses V all have pronounced glabellae. Ramesses IV has a bulging occiput similar to the "Elder Lady." Ramesses II and his son, Merenptah, both have rather weakly inclined mandibles with long ramus. Ramesses II's father, Seti I, does not possess this feature, though, suggesting that this was inherited from Ramesses II's mother, Queen Mut-Tuy. The gonial angle of Seti I is 116.3 compared to 107.9 and 109 for Ramesses II and Merenptah respectively.
The XVIV and XX dynasty heads do not have steep foreheads, receding zygomatic arches or prominent chins. Generally, both glabella and occiput are rounded and projecting to varying degrees. The sagittal contour is usually flattened, at least to some degree, although this sometimes begins before the bregma rather than in post-bregmatic position. The whole mandible is rarely squarish, although the body sometimes has a wavy edge. The latter feature, though, is very common in both ancient and modern Nubians. According to Gill (1986), an undulating mandible is a characteristic of Negroids.
The difference between late XVII and XVIII dynasty royal mummies and contemporary Nubians is slight. During the XVIV and XX dynasties we see possibly some mixing between a Nubian element that is more similar to Mesolithic Nubians (low vaults, sloping frontal bone, etc.), with an orthognathous population. Since the Ramessides were of northern extraction, this could represent miscegenation with modern Mediterraneans of Levantine type. The projecting zygomatic arches of Seti I suggest remnants of the old Natufian/Tasian types of the Holocene period.Posts: 26260 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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