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Author Topic: Modern North Africans' recent origin is outside Africa
Ish Geber
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05.03.2012


North Africa is an especially interesting region for human population geneticists due to its strategic geographical situation between Europe, the Middle-East and the rest of Africa. It is a partially isolated geographical area due to the presence of the Mediterranean Sea and the Sahara Desert, which have conditioned human migrations.


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As a consequence, a complex scenario has been established in terms of the genetic structure of these populations, which is a combinations of their isolation and the numerous migratory movements of various origins throughout history.

The most recent migrations have been documented, but the most ancient have been inferred from archaeological remains and the genetic features of some North African Populations.

An exhaustive genetic study of North Africa's human populations was published in PLoS Genetics on January 13 th, and was undertaken jointly by researchers in the Evolutionary Biology Institute (CSIC-UPF) and Stanford University, among other institutions.

The study reveals that the genetic composition of North Africa's human populations is extremely complex, and the result of a local component dating back thirteen thousand years and the varied genetic influence of neighbouring populations on North African groups during successive migrations.

According to David Comas, coordinator of the study and researcher at the Institute for Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF), "some of the questions we wanted to answer were whether today's inhabitants are direct descendants of the populations with the oldest archaeological remains in the region, dating back fifty thousand years, or whether they are descendants of the Neolithic populations in the Middle East which introduced agriculture to the region around eight thousand years ago. We also wondered if there had been any genetic exchange between the North African populations and the neighbouring regions and if so, when these took place.


A native genetic component defines North Africans


To answer these questions, the researchers analyzed around 800,000 genetic markers, distributed throughout the entire genome in 125 North African individuals belonging to seven representative populations in the whole region, and the information obtained was compared with the information from the neighbouring populations.

The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component which defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers, shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations.


The ancestors of modern North Africans returned to Africa



The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.

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The migratory imprint has been also found

As well as this local component, North African populations were also observed to share genetic markers with all the neighbouring regions, as a result of more recent migrations, although these appear in different proportions.

There is an influence from the Middle East, which becomes less marked as the distance from the Arabian Peninsula increases, similar proportions of European influence in all North African populations, and, in some populations, there are even individuals who present a large proportion of influence from the South of the Sahara in their genome.

In this latter case, it was possible to delimit where this genetic exchange took place. It was a result of a recent migration, about 24-30 generations ago (750-900 years) at the height of the Great Berber Empires and the slave trade through the Sahara desert, which was established in this region during that period.

Last updated 26.01.2015
© Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona

https://www.upf.edu/enoticies/en/1112/0106.html


David Comas

http://biologiaevolutiva.org/dcomas/

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Ish Geber
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I find it ironic that they used the same photo collage as on Mathilda's web blog, 2008.

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/moroccan-moors2.jpg


Anyway, I am trying to understand David Coma claims he made on Henn's publication, on which he took part, ...:


quote:
Sequences from the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region were analyzed in nine European and West Asian populations. They showed low genetic heterogeneity when compared to world populations. However, a Caucasoid population tree displayed a robust east-west gradient. Within-population diversity (ascertained through various parameters) and mean pairwise differences declined from east to west, in a pattern compatible with ancient population migration and expansion from the Middle East. Estimated expansion times indicate a Paleolithic event with important differences among populations according to their geographical position and thus a slower tempo than previously believed. The replacement of Neanderthals by anatomically modern humans, fully compatible with the present results, may have been a slower and more complex process than cultural change suggests.
--David Coma et al.

Hum Genet. 1997 Apr;99(4):443-9.

Mitochondrial DNA variation and the origin of the Europeans.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9099831

quote:
After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.
--David Coma et al.

Hum Biol. 1997 Jun;69(3):295-311.

Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9164042


quote:
Eleven biallelic polymorphisms and seven short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci mapping on the nonrecombining portion of the human Y chromosome have been typed in men from northwestern Africa. Analysis of the biallelic markers, which represent probable unique events in human evolution, allowed us to characterize the stable backgrounds or haplogroups of Y chromosomes that prevail in this geographic region. Variation in the more rapidly mutating genetic markers (STRs) has been used both to estimate the time to the most recent common ancestor for STR variability within these stable backgrounds and to explore whether STR differentiation among haplogroups still retains information about their phylogeny. When analysis of molecular variance was used to study the apportionment of STR variation among both genetic backgrounds (i.e., those defined by haplogroups) and population backgrounds, we found STR variability to be clearly structured by haplogroups. More than 80% of the genetic variance was found among haplogroups, whereas only 3.72% of the genetic variation could be attributed to differences among populations-that is, genetic variability appears to be much more structured by lineage than by population. This was confirmed when two population samples from the Iberian Peninsula were added to the analysis. The deep structure of the genetic variation in old genealogical units (haplogroups) challenges a population-based perspective in the comprehension of human genome diversity. A population may be better understood as an association of lineages from a deep and population-independent gene genealogy, rather than as a complete evolutionary unit.

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Parsimony network relating the haplogroups defined by 10 of the unique-event polymorphisms analyzed. Arrowheads indicate the derived states, as inferred or established by typing nonhuman primates (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 1995; Jobling et al. 1996, 1997; Hurles et al. 1998). Blackened circles are proportional to haplogroup frequency, and unblackened circles indicate haplogroups detectable but not found in our set of 129 Y chromosomes from northwestern Africa.

--David Coma et al.

Am J Hum Genet. 1999 Dec;65(6):1623-38.

Variation in short tandem repeats is deeply structured by genetic background on the human Y chromosome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10577916


quote:
The eight short tandem repeat (STR) polymorphic systems mapping on the male-specific region of the human Y chromosome, DYS19, DYS388, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392 and DYS393, were typed in four populations from northwest (NW) Africa (Moroccan Arabs, southern Moroccan Berbers, Saharawis and Mozabites). Allele frequency distributions showed statistically significant differences for all loci among all the populations except for DYS19. Complete typing was obtained for 185 chromosomes, which showed 74 different haplotypes. The two most frequent haplotypes were found in 16.2% and 15.1% of the individuals, although the latter was almost exclusively found in the Mozabites. Locus and haplotype informativeness were measured by means of the gene diversity (D). The haplotype diversity ranged from 0.856 (Mozabites) to 0.967 (southern Moroccan Berbers). For some loci, allele frequencies in NW Africans were clearly different from those in Europeans. The most common NW African haplotype was found only in one individual out of a total of 494 Europeans typed for the whole STR set. Thus, NW African and European Y chromosomes are clearly differentiated.
--David Coma et al.

Int J Legal Med. 2000;114(1-2):36-40.

Y chromosome STR haplotypes in four populations from northwest Africa.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11197625


quote:
An analysis of 11 I Alu insertion polymorphisms (ACE, TPA25, PV92, APO, FXIIIB, D1, A25, B65, HS2.43, HS3.23, and HS4.65) has been performed in several NW African (Northern, Western, and Southeastern Moroccans, Saharawi; Algerians; Tunisians) and Iberian (Basques, Catalans, and Andalusians) populations. Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. Some degree of gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa can be detected in the southern part of North Africa and in Saharawi and Southeastern Moroccans, as a result of a continuous gene flow across the Sahara desert that has created a south-north cline of sub-Saharan Africa influence in North Africa. Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity.
Hum Genet. 2000 Oct;107(4):312-9.

Alu insertion polymorphisms in NW Africa and the Iberian Peninsula: evidence for a strong genetic boundary through the Gibraltar Straits.
quote:


BACKGROUND:

Various populations have contributed to the present-day gene pool of Morocco, including the autochthonous Berber population, Phoenicians, Sephardic Jews, Bedouin Arabs and sub-Saharan Africans.

OBJECTIVE:

The primary objective of the study was to complete a genetic description of the Berber-speaking population in the Souss region of southern Morocco, based on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequence analysis.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS:

The first hypervariable segment of the mtDNA control region was sequenced in a sample of 50 individuals from the Souss Valley, and the results compared with the extensive body of data available on mtDNA sequence variation in Europe and sub-Saharan Africa.

RESULTS:

Thirty-four different sequences were found: an estimated 68% of the sequences occurred throughout Europe, West Asia and North Africa, 26% originated in sub-Saharan Africa, and 6% belonged to the North African specific haplogroup U6. The Souss Valley mtDNA sequences indicated the presence of two populations which expanded at different times: the West Eurasian sequences in the Souss sample had a smaller average number of pairwise differences than pairs of sub-Saharan sequences.

CONCLUSION:

Detailed knowledge of the possible geographic origin of each sequence facilitated an interpretation of both internal diversity parameters and between-population relationships. The sub-Saharan admixture in the Souss Valley matched the south-north cline of sub-Saharan influence in North Africa, also evident in the genetic distances of North African populations to Europeans and sub-Saharan Africans

--David Coma et al.

Ann Hum Biol. 2001 May-Jun;28(3):295-307.

Human mitochondrial DNA sequence variation in the Moroccan population of the Souss area.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11393336


quote:
Berbers live in groups scattered across North Africa whose origins and genetic relationships with their neighbours are not well established. The first hypervariable segment of the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) control region was sequenced in a total of 155 individuals from three Tunisian Berber groups and compared to other North Africans. The mtDNA lineages found belong to a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already described in North Africa. Besides the autochthonous North African U6 haplogroup, a group of L3 lineages characterized by the transition at position 16041 seems to be restricted to North Africans, suggesting that an expansion of this group of lineages took place around 10500 years ago in North Africa, and spread to neighbouring populations. Principal components and the coordinate analyses show that some Berber groups (the Tuareg, the Mozabite, and the Chenini-Douiret) are outliers within the North African genetic landscape. This outlier position is consistent with an isolation process followed by genetic drift in haplotype frequencies, and with the high heterogeneity displayed by Berbers compared to Arab samples as shown in the AMOVA. Despite this Berber heterogeneity, no significant differences were found between Berber and Arab samples, suggesting that the Arabization was mainly a cultural process rather than a demographic replacement.

]--David Coma et al.

Ann Hum Genet. 2004 May;68(Pt 3):222-33.

Mitochondrial DNA heterogeneity in Tunisian Berbers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15180702


quote:
Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) lineages of 232 individuals from 12 Central Asian populations were sequenced for both control region hypervariable segments, and additional informative sites in the coding region were also determined. Most of the mtDNA lineages belong to branches of the haplogroups with an eastern Eurasian (A, B, C, D, F, G, Y, and M haplogroups) or a western Eurasian (HV, JT, UK, I, W, and N haplogroups) origin, with a small fraction of Indian M lineages. This suggests that the extant genetic variation found in Central Asia is the result of admixture of already differentiated populations from eastern and western Eurasia. Nonetheless, two groups of lineages, D4c and G2a, seem to have expanded from Central Asia and might have their Y-chromosome counterpart in lineages belonging to haplotype P(xR1a). The present results suggest that the mtDNA found out of Africa might be the result of a maturation phase, presumably in the Middle East or eastern Africa, that led to haplogroups M and N, and subsequently expanded into Eurasia, yielding a geographically structured group of external branches of these two haplogroups in western and eastern Eurasia, Central Asia being a contact zone between two differentiated groups of peoples.

--David Coma et al.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2004 Jun;12(6):495-504.

Admixture, migrations, and dispersals in Central Asia: evidence from maternal DNA lineages.


quote:
Africa is the homeland of humankind and it is known to harbour the highest levels of human genetic diversity. However, many continental regions, especially in the sub-Saharan side, still remain largely uncharacterized (i.e. southwest and central Africa). Here, we examine the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation in a sample from Angola. The two mtDNA hypervariable segments as well as the 9-bp tandem repeat on the COII/tRNA(lys) intergenic region have allowed us to allocate mtDNAs to common African haplogroups. Angola lies in the southern end of the putative western branch of the Bantu expansion, where it met the local Khoisan populations. Angolan mtDNA lineages show basically a Bantu substrate with no traces of Khoisan lineages. Roughly, more than half of the southwestern mtDNA pool can be assigned to west Africa, approximately 25% to central Africa and a significant 16% to east Africa, which points to the western gene pool having contributed most to the mtDNA lineages in Angola. We have also detected signals of extensive gene flow from southeast Africa. Our results suggest that eastern and western Bantu expansion routes were not independent from each other, and were connected south of the rainforest and along the southern African savannah. In agreement with historical documentation, the analysis also showed that the Angola mtDNA genetic pool shows affinities with the African lineages from Brazil, the main American destination of the slaves from Angola, although not all lineages in Brazil can be accounted for by the Angolan mtDNA pool.

--David Coma et al.

Hum Genet. 2004 Oct;115(5):439-47. Epub 2004 Sep 1.

Insights into the western Bantu dispersal: mtDNA lineage analysis in Angola.


quote:
A more recent geographically restricted enrichment of the African maternal gene pool was shown to have occurred during the early Upper Paleolithic, when populations carrying mtDNA clades M1 and U6 arrived to north and northeast Africa from Eurasia, hardly penetrating the sub-Saharan portion of the continent, except Ethiopia.13,14


Therefore, the current sub-Saharan mtDNA gene pool is overwhelmingly a rich mix of L0 and L105 clades, found at varying frequencies throughout the continent.15

--David Coma et al.

The Dawn of Human Matrilineal Diversity

The American Journal of Human Genetics 82, 1130–1140, May 2008
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929708002553


quote:
The hypervariable region-1 and four nucleotide positions (10400, 10873, 12308, and 12705) of the coding region of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) were analyzed in 441 individuals belonging to eight populations (Daba, Fali, Fulbe, Mandara, Uldeme, Podokwo, Tali, and Tupuri) from North Cameroon and four populations (Bakaka, Bassa, Bamileke, and Ewondo) from South Cameroon. All mtDNAs were assigned to five haplogroups: three sub-Saharan (L1, L2, and L3), one northern African (U6), and one European (U5). Our results contrast with the observed high frequencies of a Y-chromosome haplogroup of probable Asian origin (R1*-M173) in North Cameroon. As a first step toward a better understanding of the evident discrepancy between mtDNA and Y-chromosome data, we propose two contrasting scenarios. The first one, here termed "migration and asymmetric admixture," implies a back migration from Asia to North Cameroon of a population group carrying the haplotype R1*-M173 at high frequency, and an admixture process restricted to migrant males. The second scenario, on the other hand, temed "divergent drift," implies that modern populations of North Cameroon originated from a small population group which migrated from Asia to Africa and in which, through genetic drift, Y-chromosome haplotype R1*-M173 became predominant, whereas the Asian mtDNA haplogroups were lost.
--David Coma et al.

Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2005 Nov;128(3):678-81.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15895434


quote:
Interindividual variation of human mitochondrial DNA has been extensively studied over the last two decades, and its usefulness for reconstructing evolutionary relationships of extant populations has been proved. However, some mitochondrial lineages still need to be studied using a combination of larger and tailored datasets and increased level of resolution in order to shed light on their origin and on the processes underlying their present distribution. In this study, we analyze the phylogeny of the L1c haplogroup of human mitochondrial DNA using sequence data from hypervariable regions 1 and 2 obtained from 455 individuals (extracted from a total sampling of 2542 individuals) belonging to sub-Saharan African and African-American populations. We propose a substantial revision of L1c phylogeny, by introducing one new sub-haplogroup (L1c4), two new L1c1 clades (L1c1b and L1c1c), and by reassigning the previous L1c1a1 sequences to a clade which we termed L1c5. The new phylogeny encompasses distinct lineages with different evolutionary histories. In fact, based on population frequency, internal variation and mismatch distribution, we propose that L1c1b, L1c1c and L1c2 originated in Bantu ancestors, whereas L1c1a, L1c4 and L1c5 evolved among Western Pygmies. The population structure of L1c is not comparable to any known mitochondrial or, even, Y-chromosomal haplogroup, and challenges the current view that most of mtDNA variation in Pygmies might reflect admixture with Bantu or a persistence of plesiomorphic characters. In fact, the unique feature of the L1c is that it retains a signature of a phase common to the ancestors of the Bantu and Western Pygmies, while encompassing some specific sub-clades which can indicate their divergence. This allowed us to attempt a phylogenetically based assessment of the evolutionary relationships between the two groups. Taking into consideration estimates of the time to the most recent common ancestor of L1c and its clades together with archaeological and paleoclimatological evidence, we propose that the ancestors of Bantu and Western Pygmies separated between 60 and 30 kya.

--David Coma et al.

Phylogeography of the human mitochondrial L1c haplogroup: genetic signatures of the prehistory of Central Africa.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17107816

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Studies of large sets of single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) data have proven to be a powerful tool in the analysis of the genetic structure of human populations. In this work, we analyze genotyping data for 2841 SNPs in 12 sub-Saharan African populations, including a previously unsampled region of southeastern Africa (Mozambique). We show that robust results in a world-wide perspective can be obtained when analyzing only 1000 SNPs. Our main results both confirm the results of previous studies, and show new and interesting features in sub-Saharan African genetic complexity. There is a strong differentiation of Nilo-Saharans, much beyond what would be expected by geography. Hunter-gatherer populations (Khoisan and Pygmies) show a clear distinctiveness with very intrinsic Pygmy (and not only Khoisan) genetic features. Populations of the West Africa present an unexpected similarity among them, possibly the result of a population expansion. Finally, we find a strong differentiation of the southeastern Bantu population from Mozambique, which suggests an assimilation of a pre-Bantu substrate by Bantu speakers in the region.
--David Coma et al.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2011 Jan;19(1):84-8. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.141. Epub 2010 Aug 25.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20736976

A genomic analysis identifies a novel component in the genetic structure of sub-Saharan African populations.


quote:
Pygmy populations are among the few hunter-gatherers currently living in sub-Saharan Africa and are mainly represented by two groups, Eastern and Western, according to their current geographical distribution. They are scattered across the Central African belt and surrounded by Bantu-speaking farmers, with whom they have complex social and economic interactions. To investigate the demographic history of Pygmy groups, a population approach was applied to the analysis of 205 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences from ten central African populations. No sharing of maternal lineages was observed between the two Pygmy groups, with haplogroup L1c being characteristic of the Western group but most of Eastern Pygmy lineages falling into subclades of L0a, L2a, and L5. Demographic inferences based on Bayesian coalescent simulations point to an early split among the maternal ancestors of Pygmies and those of Bantu-speaking farmers (∼ 70,000 years ago [ya]). Evidence for population growth in the ancestors of Bantu-speaking farmers has been observed, starting ∼ 65,000 ya, well before the diffusion of Bantu languages. Subsequently, the effective population size of the ancestors of Pygmies remained constant over time and ∼ 27,000 ya, coincident with the Last Glacial Maximum, Eastern and Western Pygmies diverged, with evidence of subsequent migration only among the Western group and the Bantu-speaking farmers. Western Pygmies show signs of a recent bottleneck 4,000-650 ya, coincident with the diffusion of Bantu languages, whereas Eastern Pygmies seem to have experienced a more ancient decrease in population size (20,000-4,000 ya). In conclusion, the results of this first attempt at analyzing complete mtDNA sequences at the population level in sub-Saharan Africa not only support previous findings but also offer new insights into the demographic history of Pygmy populations, shedding new light on the ancient peopling of the African continent.

--David Coma et al.

Mol Biol Evol. 2011 Feb;28(2):1099-110. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msq294. Epub 2010 Nov 1.

Insights into the demographic history of African Pygmies from complete mitochondrial genomes.

quote:
Human population movements in North Africa have been mostly restricted to an east-west direction due to the geographical barriers imposed by the Sahara Desert and the Mediterranean Sea. Although these barriers have not completely impeded human migrations, genetic studies have shown that an east-west genetic gradient exists. However, the lack of genetic information of certain geographical areas and the focus of some studies in parts of the North African landscape have limited the global view of the genetic pool of North African populations. To provide a global view of the North African genetic landscape and population structure, we have analyzed ∼2,300 North African mitochondrial DNA lineages (including 269 new sequences from Libya, in the first mtDNA study of the general Libyan population). Our results show a clinal distribution of certain haplogroups, some of them more frequent in Western (H, HV0, L1b, L3b, U6) or Eastern populations (L0a, R0a, N1b, I, J) that might be the result of human migrations from the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and Europe. Despite this clinal pattern, a genetic discontinuity is found in the Libyan/Egyptian border, suggesting a differential gene flow in the Nile River Valley. Finally, frequency of the post-LGM subclades H1 and H3 is predominant in Libya within the H sequences, highlighting the magnitude of the LGM expansion in North Africa.
--David Coma et al.

Mitochondrial DNA structure in North Africa reveals a genetic discontinuity in the Nile Valley

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2011 May;145(1):107-17. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21472. Epub 2011 Feb 10.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21312180


quote:
The study of Y chromosome variation has helped reconstruct demographic events associated with the spread of languages, agriculture, and pastoralism in sub-Saharan Africa, but little attention has been given to the early history of the continent. In order to overcome this lack of knowledge, we carried out a phylogeographic analysis of haplogroups A and B in a broad data set of sub-Saharan populations. These two lineages are particularly suitable for this objective because they are the two most deeply rooted branches of the Y chromosome genealogy. Their distribution is almost exclusively restricted to sub-Saharan Africa where their frequency peaks at 65% in groups of foragers. The combined high-resolution single nucleotide polymorphism analysis with short tandem repeats variation of their subclades reveals strong geographic and population structure for both haplogroups. This has allowed us to identify specific lineages related to regional preagricultural dynamics in different areas of sub-Saharan Africa. In addition, we observed signatures of relatively recent contact, both among Pygmies and between them and Khoisan speaker groups from southern Africa, thus contributing to the understanding of the complex evolutionary relationships among African hunter-gatherers. Finally, by revising the phylogeography of the very early human Y chromosome lineages, we have obtained support for the role of southern Africa as a sink, rather than a source, of the first migrations of modern humans from eastern and central parts of the continent. These results open new perspectives on the early history of Homo sapiens in Africa, with particular attention to areas of the continent where human fossil remains and archaeological data are scant.

--David Coma et al.

Mol Biol Evol. 2011 Sep;28(9):2603-13. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msr089. Epub 2011 Apr 4.

Signatures of the preagricultural peopling processes in sub-Saharan Africa as revealed by the phylogeography of early Y chromosome lineages.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21478374


quote:
We have analyzed human genetic diversity in 33 Old World populations including 23 populations obtained through Genographic Project studies. A set of 1,536 SNPs in five X chromosome regions were genotyped in 1,288 individuals (mostly males). We use a novel analysis employing subARG network construction with recombining chromosomal segments. Here, a subARG is constructed independently for each of five gene-free regions across the X chromosome, and the results are aggregated across them. For PCA, MDS and ancestry inference with STRUCTURE, the subARG is processed to obtain feature vectors of samples and pairwise distances between samples. The observed population structure, estimated from the five short X chromosomal segments, supports genome-wide frequency-based analyses: African populations show higher genetic diversity, and the general trend of shared variation is seen across the globe from Africa through Middle East, Europe, Central Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia in broad patterns. The recombinational analysis was also compared with established methods based on SNPs and haplotypes. For haplotypes, we also employed a fixed-length approach based on information-content optimization. Our recombinational analysis suggested a southern migration route out of Africa, and it also supports a single, rapid human expansion from Africa to East Asia through South Asia.
--David Coma et al.

Hum Genet. 2012 Apr;131(4):601-13. doi: 10.1007/s00439-011-1104-8. Epub 2011 Oct 18.

Recombination networks as genetic markers in a human variation study of the Old World.


quote:
The expansion of Bantu languages, which started around 5,000 years before present in west/central Africa and spread all throughout sub-Saharan Africa, may represent one of the major and most rapid demographic movements in the history of the human species. Although the genetic footprints of this expansion have been unmasked through the analyses of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA lineages, information on the genetic impact of this massive movement and on the genetic composition of pre-Bantu populations is still scarce. Here, we analyze an extensive collection of Y-chromosome markers--41 single nucleotide polymorphisms and 18 short tandem repeats--in 883 individuals from 22 Bantu-speaking agriculturalist populations and 3 Pygmy hunter-gatherer populations from Gabon and Cameroon. Our data reveal a recent origin for most paternal lineages in west Central African populations most likely resulting from the expansion of Bantu-speaking farmers that erased the more ancient Y-chromosome diversity found in this area. However, some traces of ancient paternal lineages are observed in these populations, mainly among hunter-gatherers. These results are at odds with those obtained from mtDNA analyses, where high frequencies of ancient maternal lineages are observed, and substantial maternal gene flow from hunter-gatherers to Bantu farmers has been suggested. These differences are most likely explained by sociocultural factors such as patrilocality. We also find the intriguing presence of paternal lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R1b1*, which might represent footprints of demographic expansions in central Africa not directly related to the Bantu expansion.
--David Coma et al.

Mol Biol Evol. 2009 Jul;26(7):1581-9. doi: 10.1093/molbev/msp069. Epub 2009 Apr 15.

Genetic and demographic implications of the Bantu expansion: insights from human paternal lineages.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19369595


quote:
The current distribution of Bantu languages is commonly considered to be a consequence of a relatively recent population expansion (3-5kya) in Central Western Africa. While there is a substantial consensus regarding the centre of origin of Bantu languages (the Benue River Valley, between South East Nigeria and Western Cameroon), the identification of the area from where the population expansion actually started, the relation between the processes leading to the spread of languages and peoples and the relevance of local migratory events remain controversial. In order to shed new light on these aspects, we studied Y chromosome variation in a broad dataset of populations encompassing Nigeria, Cameroon, Gabon and Congo. Our results evidence an evolutionary scenario which is more complex than had been previously thought, pointing to a marked differentiation of Cameroonian populations from the rest of the dataset. In fact, in contrast with the current view of Bantu speakers as a homogeneous group of populations, we observed an unexpectedly high level of interpopulation genetic heterogeneity and highlighted previously undetected diversity for lineages associated with the diffusion of Bantu languages (E1b1a (M2) sub-branches). We also detected substantial differences in local demographic histories, which concord with the hypotheses regarding an early diffusion of Bantu languages into the forest area and a subsequent demographic expansion and migration towards eastern and western Africa.
--David Coma et al.

Mol Ecol. 2011 Jul;20(13):2693-708. doi: 10.1111/j.1365-294X.2011.05130.x. Epub 2011 Jun 1.

The Bantu expansion revisited: a new analysis of Y chromosome variation in Central Western Africa.


quote:

BACKGROUND:

When studying the genetic structure of human populations, the role of cultural factors may be difficult to ascertain due to a lack of formal models. Linguistic diversity is a typical example of such a situation. Patrilocality, on the other hand, can be integrated into a biological framework, allowing the formulation of explicit working hypotheses. The present study is based on the assumption that patrilocal traditions make the hypervariable region I of the mtDNA a valuable tool for the exploration of migratory dynamics, offering the opportunity to explore the relationships between genetic and linguistic diversity. We studied 85 Niger-Congo-speaking patrilocal populations that cover regions from Senegal to Central African Republic. A total of 4175 individuals were included in the study.

RESULTS:

By combining a multivariate analysis aimed at investigating the population genetic structure, with a Bayesian approach used to test models and extent of migration, we were able to detect a stepping-stone migration model as the best descriptor of gene flow across the region, with the main discontinuities corresponding to forested areas.

CONCLUSIONS:

Our analyses highlight an aspect of the influence of habitat variation on human genetic diversity that has yet to be understood. Rather than depending simply on geographic linear distances, patterns of female genetic variation vary substantially between savannah and rainforest environments. Our findings may be explained by the effects of recent gene flow constrained by environmental factors, which superimposes on a background shaped by pre-agricultural peopling.

--David Coma et al.

BMC Evol Biol. 2013 Jan 29;13:24. doi: 10.1186/1471-2148-13-24.

The influence of habitats on female mobility in Central and Western Africa inferred from human mitochondrial variation.

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quote:
The hypervariable segment I of the control region of the mtDNA (positions 16024-16383) was PCR-amplified from mouth scrape and hairs and sequenced in 45 unrelated individuals of pure matrilineal Basque descent. Twenty-seven different sequences were found, of which 21 are unique to the Basques. The allelic partition observed, together with resampling experiments, suggested that much more variation remained to be discovered. The mean pairwise difference in number of nucleotides between individuals was 3-15, a very low value. Moreover, the number of steps for the most parsimonious tree is very low compared to the number of different sequences. Both findings suggest that the Basque population was founded by a few lineages that diverged in a short time span. The number of nucleotide differences between individuals was shown not to be influenced by the distance between their birthplaces, thus validating the sampling strategy used a posteriori. The pairwise difference distribution agreed well with the three-parameter model proposed by Rogers & Harpending (1992). The parameter estimates found for the Basques implied that a demographic expansion (or perhaps two, given the bimodal shape of the distribution) took place sometime between 14500 and 42000 BP which is in agreement with archaeological data. Our sample was compared to other populations for which D-loop sequences were available through the Nei & Miller (1990) distance. In a neighbour-joining tree, all the Caucasoid samples, including the Basques, appeared tightly clustered, whereas African samples were the most distant to the Caucasoids and also the most heterogeneous. Although classical markers, such as blood groups and protein polymorphisms, clearly separate the Basques (and the Sardinians) from other European populations, this distinctiveness was not found using D-loop sequences.

--David Coma et al.

Ann Hum Genet. 1995 Jan;59(Pt 1):63-81.

Human mitochondrial DNA variation and the origin of Basques.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7762985


quote:
Phylogenetic analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) performed in Western Mediterranean populations has shown that both shores share a common set of mtDNA haplogroups already found in Europe and the Middle East. Principal co-ordinates of genetic distances and principal components analyses based on the haplotype frequencies show that the main genetic difference is attributed to the higher frequency of sub-Saharan L haplogroups in NW Africa, showing some gene flow across the Sahara desert, with a major impact in the southern populations of NW Africa. The AMOVA demonstrates that SW European populations are highly homogeneous whereas NW African populations display a more heterogeneous genetic pattern, due to an east-west differentiation as a result of gene flow coming from the East. Despite the shared haplogroups found in both areas, the European V and the NW African U6 haplogroups reveal the traces of the Mediterranean Sea permeability to female migrations, and allowed for determination and quantification of the genetic contribution of both shores to the genetic landscape of the geographic area. Comparison of mtDNA data with autosomal markers and Y-chromosome lineages, analysed in the same populations, shows a congruent pattern, although female-mediated gene flow seems to have been more intense than male-mediated gene flow.

--David Coma et al.

Ann Hum Genet. 2003 Jul;67(Pt 4):312-28.

Joining the pillars of Hercules: mtDNA sequences show multidirectional gene flow in the western Mediterranean.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12914566

quote:
The Iberians developed a surprisingly sophisticated culture in the Mediterranean coast of the Iberian Peninsula from the 6th century BC until their conquest by the Romans in the 2nd century BC. They spoke and wrote a non-Indo-European language that still cannot be understood; their origins and relationships with other non-Indo-European peoples, like the Etruscans, are unclear, since their funerary practices were based on the cremation of bodies, and therefore anthropology has been unable to approach the study of this people. We have retrieved mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) from a few of the scarce skeletal remains that have been preserved, some of them belonging to ritualistically executed individuals. The most stringent authentication criteria proposed for ancient DNA, such as independent replication, amino-acid analysis, quantitation of template molecules, multiple extractions and cloning of PCR products, have been followed to obtain reliable sequences from the mtDNA hypervariable region 1 (HVR1), as well as some haplogroup diagnostic SNPs. Phylogeographic analyses show that the haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians was very similar to that found in modern Iberian Peninsula populations, suggesting a long-term genetic continuity since pre-Roman times. Nonetheless, there is less genetic diversity in the ancient Iberians than is found among modern populations, a fact that could reflect the small population size at the origin of the population sampled, and the heterogenic tribal structure of the Iberian society. Moreover, the Iberians were not especially closely related to the Etruscans, which points to considerable genetic heterogeneity in Pre-Roman Western Europe
--David Coma et al.

Ann Hum Genet. 2005 Sep;69(Pt 5):535-48.

The genetics of the pre-Roman Iberian Peninsula: a mtDNA study of ancient Iberians.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16138912

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quote:
Tunisia has experienced a variety of human migrations that have modeled the myriad cultural groups inhabiting the area. Both Arabic and Berber-speaking populations live in Tunisia. Berbers are commonly considered as in situ descendants of peoples who settled roughly in Palaeolithic times, and posterior demographic events such as the arrival of the Neolithic, the Arab migrations, and the expulsion of the "Moors" from Spain, had a strong cultural influence. Nonetheless, the genetic structure and the population relationships of the ethnic groups living in Tunisia have been poorly assessed. In order to gain insight into the paternal genetic landscape and population structure, more than 40 Y-chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms and 17 short tandem repeats were analyzed in five Tunisian ethnic groups (three Berber-speaking isolates, one Andalusian, and one Cosmopolitan Arab). The most common lineage was the North African haplogroup E-M81 (71%), being fixed in two Berber samples (Chenini-Douiret and Jradou), suggesting isolation and genetic drift. Differential levels of paternal gene flow from the Near East were detected in the Tunisian samples (J-M267 lineage over 30%); however, no major sub-Saharan African or European influence was found. This result contrasts with the high amount of sub-Saharan and Eurasian maternal lineages previously described in Tunisia. Overall, our results reveal a certain genetic inter-population diversity, especially among Berber groups, and sexual asymmetry, paternal lineages being mostly of autochthonous origin. In addition, Andalusians, who are supposed to be migrants from southern Spain, do not exhibit any substantial contribution of European lineages, suggesting a North African origin for this ethnic group.
--David Coma et al.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2011 Oct;146(2):271-80. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21581. Epub 2011 Aug 16.

Genetic structure of Tunisian ethnic groups revealed by paternal lineages.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Genetic+structure+of+Tunisian+ethnic+groups+revealed+by+paternal+lineages.

quote:
The biological behavior of the Y chromosome, which is paternally inherited, implies that males sharing the same surname may also share a similar Y chromosome. However, socio-cultural factors, such as polyphyletism, non-paternity, adoption, or matrilineal surname transmission, may prevent the joint transmission of the surname and the Y chromosome. By genotyping 17 Y-STRs and 68 SNPs in ~2500 male samples that each carried one of the 50 selected Catalan surnames, we could determine sets of descendants of a common ancestor, the population of origin of the common ancestor, and the date when such a common ancestor lived. Haplotype diversity was positively correlated with surname frequency, that is, rarer surnames showed the strongest signals of coancestry. Introgression rates of Y chromosomes into a surname by non-paternity, adoption, and transmission of the maternal surname were estimated at 1.5-2.6% per generation, with some local variation. Average ages for the founders of the surnames were estimated at ~500 years, suggesting a delay between the origin of surnames (twelfth and thirteenth centuries) and the systematization of their paternal transmission. We have found that, in general, a foreign etymology for a surname does not often result in a non-indigenous origin of surname founders; however, bearers of some surnames with an Arabic etymology show an excess of North African haplotypes. Finally, we estimate that surname prediction from a Y-chromosome haplotype, which may have interesting forensic applications, has a ~60% sensitivity but a 17% false discovery rate.European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 18 February 2015; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2015.14.
--David Coma et al.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2015 Feb 18. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2015.14. [Epub ahead of print]

Y-chromosome diversity in Catalan surname samples: insights into surname origin and frequency.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25689924


quote:
East Africa is a strategic region to study human genetic diversity due to the presence of ethnically, linguistically, and geographically diverse populations. Here, we provide new insight into the genetic history of populations living in the Sudanese region of East Africa by analysing nine ethnic groups belonging to three African linguistic families: Niger-Kordofanian, Nilo-Saharan and Afro-Asiatic. A total of 500 individuals were genotyped for 200,000 single-nucleotide polymorphisms. Principal component analysis, clustering analysis using ADMIXTURE, FST statistics, and the three-population test were used to investigate the underlying genetic structure and ancestry of the different ethno-linguistic groups. Our analyses revealed a genetic component for Sudanese Nilo-Saharan speaking groups (Darfurians and part of Nuba populations) related to Nilotes of South Sudan, but not to other Sudanese populations or other sub-Saharan populations. Populations inhabiting the North of the region showed close genetic affinities with North Africa, with a component that could be remnant of North Africans before the migrations of Arabs from Arabia. In addition, we found very low genetic distances between populations in genes important for anti-malarial and anti-bacterial host defence, suggesting similar selective pressures on these genes and stressing the importance of considering functional pathways to understand the evolutionary history of populations.

 -
Map of studied region in East Africa showing Sudan, South Sudan and Ethiopia, and the approximate locations of eight populations genotyped in this study.
Nomadic Fulani are not shown in the map due to their wide distribution in the west, central and east of the Sudan. The inset in the top shows the locations of Sudan, South Sudan and Ethiopia in East Africa. Modified from d-maps.com.


--David Coma et al.

Sci Rep. 2015 May 28;5:9996. doi: 10.1038/srep09996.

The genetics of East African populations: a Nilo-Saharan component in the African genetic landscape.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26017457

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quote:
We have analysed a large set of autosomal short tandem repeat (STR) loci in several Arabic and Berber-speaking groups from north-west Africa (ie Moroccan Arabs, northern-central and southern Moroccan Berbers, Saharawis, and Mozabites). Two levels of analysis have been devised using two sets of 12STR loci, (D3S1358, vWA, FGA, THO1, TPOX, CSF1PO, D8S1179, D21S11, D18S51, D5S818, D13S317 and D7S820) and 21 (the former set plus D9S926, D11S2010, D13S767, D14S306, D18S848, D2S1328, D4S243, F13A1, and FES/FPS). For each set, data for a number of external reference populations were gathered from the literature. Several methods of analysis based on genetic distances (neighbour-joining trees, principal coordinate analysis, boundary detection), as well as AMOVA, showed that genetic differentiation among NW African populations was very low and devoid of any spatial pattern. When the NW African populations were grouped according to cultural or linguistic differences, the partition was not associated with genetic differentiation. Thus, it is likely that Arabisation was mainly a cultural process. A clear genetic difference was found between NW African populations and Iberians, which underscores the Gilbraltar Straits as a strong barrier to genetic exchange; nonetheless, some degree of gene flow into Southern Iberia may have existed. NW Africans were genetically closer to Iberians and to other Europeans than to African Americans.

--David Coma et al.

Eur J Hum Genet. 2000 May;8(5):360-6.
Genetic structure of north-west Africa revealed by STR analysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10854096


quote:
Lebanon is an eastern Mediterranean country inhabited by approximately four million people with a wide variety of ethnicities and religions, including Muslim, Christian, and Druze. In the present study, 926 Lebanese men were typed with Y-chromosomal SNP and STR markers, and unusually, male genetic variation within Lebanon was found to be more strongly structured by religious affiliation than by geography. We therefore tested the hypothesis that migrations within historical times could have contributed to this situation. Y-haplogroup J*(xJ2) was more frequent in the putative Muslim source region (the Arabian Peninsula) than in Lebanon, and it was also more frequent in Lebanese Muslims than in Lebanese non-Muslims. Conversely, haplogroup R1b was more frequent in the putative Christian source region (western Europe) than in Lebanon and was also more frequent in Lebanese Christians than in Lebanese non-Christians. The most common R1b STR-haplotype in Lebanese Christians was otherwise highly specific for western Europe and was unlikely to have reached its current frequency in Lebanese Christians without admixture. We therefore suggest that the Islamic expansion from the Arabian Peninsula beginning in the seventh century CE introduced lineages typical of this area into those who subsequently became Lebanese Muslims, whereas the Crusader activity in the 11(th)-13(th) centuries CE introduced western European lineages into Lebanese Christians.

 -

Map of Lebanon and Its Surrounding Regions Showing Historically Documented Migrations into Lebanon
 -

Geographical Distribution of WES1, the Most Common R1b Haplotype in Lebanese Christians

This haplotype is DYS19, DYS389I, DYS389b, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393 14, 12, 16, 24, 10, 13, 13. Population samples containing the haplotype are shown in red, and those lacking it are shown in blue. Note the highly specific western European distribution and the absence of the haplotype from populations near Lebanon. Data are from YHRD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/bin/gr2.jpg

Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups Identified in Lebanese Subpopulations

The phylogenetic tree defined by the markers used is shown on the left, and the haplogroup names are given in the middle. Nomenclature is based on the 2003 YCC tree9, with departures indicated by “/-”. The absolute number of chromosomes within each haplogroup in the entire sample is shown in the “Lebanon” column, and the relative frequency within each of the three religious groups is shown on the right by the relative sizes of the circles.

 -

Network of STR Variation within Haplogroup R1b

Circles represent haplotypes defined by nine STRs; area is proportional to frequency, and color indicates the region of origin. Lines represent the mutational differences between haplotypes


--David Coma et al.

Am J Hum Genet. 2008 Apr;82(4):873-82. doi:

10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.01.020. Epub 2008 Mar 27.


Y-chromosomal diversity in Lebanon is structured by recent historical events.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18374297

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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I need to look at the pdf but it seems to me right off the bat
that assorted authors do that capture a full snapshot
the region "North Africa" but mostly a very selective
coastal part. Karima et al 2011 for example use data from mostly
coastal samples for "North Africa" covering Coastal Morocco,
Algeria, Tunisia, and then Libyan Tuareg, and Northern/Lower Egypt
up near the Cairo area. Why didn't they cover southern/Upper Egypt?

Thus sweeping claims about "North Africa" can in a strict sense only apply
to COASTAL North Africa. What about the rest of the region. like
southern Egypt, etc? This is a long-standing issue- how they sample.
And once they get the coastal samples to stand in
for "North Africa" then they can conveniently juxtapose them
against distant "Sub-Saharan" samples somewhere near the Congo.

El-Sibai et al 2011 for example use the same
"coastal" approach and then compare that to
distant Congo, Gabon, Nigeria. But their "Middle
Eastern" or "Eurasian" comparison sample is right
next door- Syria, Israel, Lebanon. By contrast, they don't use
the Sudan right next door to Egypt even though
that location is also sometimes classified as
"North African" by mainstream geography writings.
We have seen this double standard time and time again, and
Keita comments on such selective sampling in the literature.

 -

The statement:
Modern North Africans' recent origin is outside Africa

Is misleading when the full picture is considered as detailed above.
It would be more accurate to say that SOME modern North African's
recent origin, using mostly COASTAL sampling, may be outside of Africa.


Here are other "North Africans"- that somehow "disappear" in many studies...

 -
Chad


 -
Sudan

 -
Mali

 -
Niger..

 -
Mauritania

The above peoples are all mostly ABOVE the Saharan line.
But apparently, they ain't "authentically" North African enough..
Maybe they ain't "really" black...

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quote:
Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

--David Coma et al.

Nat Commun. 2013;4:1764. doi: 10.1038/ncomms2656.

Neolithic mitochondrial haplogroup H genomes and the genetic origins of Europeans.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23612305


quote:
Africa is inferred to be the continent of origin for all modern human populations, but the details of human prehistory and evolution in Africa remain largely obscure owing to the complex histories of hundreds of distinct populations. We present data for more than 580,000 SNPs for several hunter-gatherer populations: the Hadza and Sandawe of Tanzania, and the ≠Khomani Bushmen of South Africa, including speakers of the nearly extinct N|u language. We find that African hunter-gatherer populations today remain highly differentiated, encompassing major components of variation that are not found in other African populations. Hunter-gatherer populations also tend to have the lowest levels of genome-wide linkage disequilibrium among 27 African populations. We analyzed geographic patterns of linkage disequilibrium and population differentiation, as measured by F(ST), in Africa. The observed patterns are consistent with an origin of modern humans in southern Africa rather than eastern Africa, as is generally assumed. Additionally, genetic variation in African hunter-gatherer populations has been significantly affected by interaction with farmers and herders over the past 5,000 y, through both severe population bottlenecks and sex-biased migration. However, African hunter-gatherer populations continue to maintain the highest levels of genetic diversity in the world.


 -

Ancestral population clusters in sub-Saharan Africa. An unsupervised clustering algorithm, ADMIXTURE (21), was used to analyze population structure among 12 sub-Saharan African populations using ≈461K autosomal SNP loci. We plot k: 2, 4, 6, 8 ancestral populations. European Tuscans were included to allow for potential recent European admixture in South Africans. We randomly chose a subset of 30 unrelated Maasai and Luhya for representation in this figure. At k = 4, all HG retain shared ancestry (in blue), and South African Bantu-speakers are likely to have recently absorbed 10–20% KhoeSan ancestry. At k = 8, HG populations emerge with four distinct, ancestral population clusters.


 -

Genome-wide LD and Fst in African populations. (A) Each line represents the LD decay averaged across populations within each of six geographic regions; regions are described in SI Appendix, Table S1. LD (r2) between SNPs was calculated in sliding 1-Mb windows. The r2 estimates were binned by the genetic distance between SNPs in 5-Kb bins. HG populations have the lowest LD curves (SI Appendix, Fig. S13 shows population-specific LD decay curves). (B) We assessed a possible point of origin by regressing LD onto geographic distance. Regression for the single best fit for geographic origin is shown, with a correlation coefficient of 0.78, to the point 14°S, 12°E. (C) Map is shown using mean LD within 0–5 Kb. The highest correlation coefficient in blue indicates the best fit with a potential geographic origin. Crosses indicate the geographic coordinates of the sampled populations. (D) We assessed a possible point of origin by regressing Fst between African populations and Europe onto geographic distance, using a waypoint in the Near East. Populations were grouped for Fst analysis; crosses indicate the geographic mean for each population grouping.

 -


Local ancestry assignment along phased chromosomes. Two individuals with potential admixture (Fig. 1) were projected onto the principal component space of three putative ancestral populations. The three ancestral populations differed for Sandawe individuals (SWE, Sandawe; HAD, Hadza; LWK, Luhya Bantu) and South African ≠Khomani Bushmen (SAN, KhoeSan; TSI, European Tuscan; LWK, Luhya Bantu). Ancestry was assigned in 40-SNP windows along phased chromosomes (haplotypes A and B) by calculating the minimal distance to an ancestral population (28). Ancestry from Bantu-speaking agriculturalists seems to have occurred relatively recently, as indicated by many ≥10-Mb segments. Switch errors in the phasing could potentially shorten the length of these migrant tracts, but with low levels of admixture, phase switch errors are less likely to lengthen inferred migrant tracts.


 -

Runs of homozygosity among Khoisan-speakers. (A) Long runs of homozygosity were calculated for individuals in the Hadza, Sandawe, and ≠Khomani Bushmen populations. Runs were constrained to a minimum of 1 Mb, and two missing genotypes were allowed per run. cROH are plotted for all individuals; the y-axis represents counts of individuals. The Hadza distribution differs markedly from the other two populations, with 65% (n = 11/17) of individuals having cROH >100 Mb. This distribution is consistent with a severe, recent bottleneck in the Hadza. (B) Simulated posterior distribution of effective population size in the Hadza, generated by sampling from a uniform distribution of Ne and keeping simulated parameters within 20% of the observed fROH with REJECTOR (29). (C) Simulated posterior distribution of bottleneck severity in the Hadza, as modeled above.

--David Coma et al.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21383195

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2011 Mar 29;108(13):5154-62. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1017511108. Epub 2011 Mar 7.

Hunter-gatherer genomic diversity suggests a southern African origin for modern humans.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
I need to look at the pdf but it seems to me right off the bat
that assorted authors do that capture a full snapshot
the region "North Africa" but mostly a very selective
coastal part. Karima et al 2011 for example use data from mostly
coastal samples for "North Africa" covering Coastal Morocco,
Algeria, Tunisia, and then Libyan Tuareg, and Northern/Lower Egypt
up near the Cairo area. Why didn't they cover southern/Upper Egypt?

Thus sweeping claims about "North Africa" can in a strict sense only apply
to COASTAL North Africa. What about the rest of the region. like
southern Egypt, etc? This is a long-standing issue- how they sample.
And once they get the coastal samples to stand in
for "North Africa" then they can conveniently juxtapose them
against distant "Sub-Saharan" samples somewhere near the Congo.

El-Sibai et al 2011 for example use the same
"coastal" approach and then compare that to
distant Congo, Gabon, Nigeria. But their "Middle
Eastern" or "Eurasian" comparison sample is right
next door- Syria, Israel, Lebanon. By contrast, they don't use
the Sudan right next door to Egypt even though
that location is also sometimes classified as
"North African" by mainstream geography writings.
We have seen this double standard time and time again, and
Keita comments on such selective sampling in the literature.


The statement:
Modern North Africans' recent origin is outside Africa

Is misleading when the full picture is considered as detailed above.
It would be more accurate to say that SOME modern North African's
recent origin, using mostly COASTAL sampling, may be outside of Africa.

The implication is:

The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component which defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers, shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations.


So the people today are not the descendants of either the earliest occupants and most recent Neolithic populations. Meaning they are not the same people, simply put.

vs

The ancestors of modern North Africans returned to Africa

The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago.


So, of which people do they speak here? Is it the former group already discussed or another group, within the previous chapter?


Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.


I assume the local part is referred to as E-M81 (?). Though, nothing is being said about that, specially. Further more they stated that it is very differnt from "sub Sahara". What's very different, they don't say. We have to take it for face value as a fact.

We now know that West Saharans and Tuareg carry the ancestral clade of E-M81.


They then returned as well. But of which North African group do they speak here, in detail?


quote:

“Haplogroup E

Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007).

Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004).


Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %). 

Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking.

[...]

Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).

--S Triki-Fendri, A Rebai 2015

Synthetic review on the genetic relatedness between North Africa and Arabia deduced from paternal lineage distributions

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
The statement:
Modern North Africans' recent origin is outside Africa


The above peoples are all mostly ABOVE the Saharan line.
But apparently, they ain't "authentically" North African enough..
Maybe they ain't "really" black...

Their clue here is to claim them as the desandants of slaves. They wrote the same on Siwa Berbers. That's the gameplay, as they quicly shift:

In this latter case, it was possible to delimit where this genetic exchange took place. It was a result of a recent migration, about 24-30 generations ago (750-900 years) at the height of the Great Berber Empires and the slave trade through the Sahara desert, which was established in this region during that period.

Of which slavetrade through the desert do they speak (750-900 years)? And who exactly was enslaved? Do they mean the return was (750-900 years)? The second largest paragroup is J1 I believe?


However, the paragroup of North Africa, east and west is E-M78.
The Masalit and Fur are the ancestral carriers of the paragroup.
And E-M78 itself arose at lake Nuba.
Yet, it is eurasian?


quote:
Haplogroup E (four different haplo- types) accounts for the majority (34.4%) of the chromo- some and is widespread in the Sudan. E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
--Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1*

Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 000:000–000 (2008)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18618658


quote:

Y-chromosome haplogroup tree


The Y-chromosome haplogroup tree has been constructed manually following YCC 2008 nomenclature20 with some modifications.35 The tree (Supplementary Figure S1) contains the E haplogroups of Eritrean populations from this study and those reported in the literature.22–34 Genotyping results for E-V13, E-V12, E-V22 and E-V32 reported for Eritrean samples and elsewhere23,27 were retracted to E-M78 haplogroup level. All the analyses in this study were done at the same resolution using the following 17 bi-allelic markers: E-M96, E-M33, E-P2, E-M2, E-M58, E-M191, E-M154, E-M329, E-M215, E-M35, E-M78, E-M81, E-M123, E-M34, E-V6, E-V16/E-M281 and E-M75.

--Eyoab I Gebremeskel1,2 and Muntaser E Ibrahim1

Y-chromosome E haplogroups: their distribution and implication to the origin of Afro-Asiatic languages and pastoralism (2014)

EJHGOpen

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v22/n12/full/ejhg201441a.html

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quote:
North African Jews constitute the second largest Jewish Diaspora group. However, their relatedness to each other; to European, Middle Eastern, and other Jewish Diaspora groups; and to their former North African non-Jewish neighbors has not been well defined. Here, genome-wide analysis of five North African Jewish groups (Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Djerban, and Libyan) and comparison with other Jewish and non-Jewish groups demonstrated distinctive North African Jewish population clusters with proximity to other Jewish populations and variable degrees of Middle Eastern, European, and North African admixture. Two major subgroups were identified by principal component, neighbor joining tree, and identity-by-descent analysis-Moroccan/Algerian and Djerban/Libyan-that varied in their degree of European admixture. These populations showed a high degree of endogamy and were part of a larger Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewish group. By principal component analysis, these North African groups were orthogonal to contemporary populations from North and South Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. Thus, this study is compatible with the history of North African Jews-founding during Classical Antiquity with proselytism of local populations, followed by genetic isolation with the rise of Christianity and then Islam, and admixture following the emigration of Sephardic Jews during the Inquisition.

 -

Principal component analysis (PCA) of Jewish populations combined with other HGDP groups in global (A) and regional contexts (B and C). Dense regions with many overlapping populations are circled for the purpose of illustration, with a list of the groups adjacent.

 -

Neighbor-joining tree showing the relationship of European, Jewish, Middle Eastern, and North African populations, using FST as the distance metric. The tree was rooted by using the reference mixed Central and Southern African population as an out-group. Major population groups are labeled at the right, with the red bar within the Jewish group denoting North African Jews. Five hundred bootstrap iterations were tested to assess the robustness of the tree [the labels at the nodes represent the number of iterations (%) in which that configuration was seen]. Populations labeled with an asterisk (*) cluster outside of their expected groups.

 -

Genome-wide IBD sharing for the average pair of individuals within (A) and across (B and C) populations. With the exception of non-Jewish Tunisian samples, IBD sharing is higher within Jewish groups, reflecting higher levels of endogamy. Jewish populations exhibit higher sharing with other Jewish populations than with geographically near groups, The average total sharing across Jewish populations is generally higher than the sharing across other population pairs, and pairs of North African Jewish populations (dark to red color bars) share more segments IBD than most other Jewish pairs.

 -

STRUCTURE results for Jewish populations combined with Middle Eastern, European, East Asian, and African populations from HGDP. K values of 3–7 are shown; each represents an alignment of 10 independent runs. Vertical bars represent individuals, which are grouped by their known populations and further combined into general regional groups, illustrated by the top bar.

 -

Ancestry deconvolution. The genome-wide ancestry of North African Jewish and non-Jewish populations is compared with respect to European (Basque), Maghrebi (Tunisian non-Jewish), and Middle Eastern (Palestinian) origins. Jewish populations exhibit increased European and decreased Maghrebi ancestry compared with corresponding non-Jewish groups. The Middle Eastern component is comparable across all groups.


--David Coma et al.

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2012 Aug 21;109(34):13865-70. doi: 10.1073/pnas.1204840109. Epub 2012 Aug 6.

North African Jewish and non-Jewish populations form distinctive, orthogonal clusters.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22869716

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quote:
The Phoenicians were the dominant traders in the Mediterranean Sea two thousand to three thousand years ago and expanded from their homeland in the Levant to establish colonies and trading posts throughout the Mediterranean, but then they disappeared from history. We wished to identify their male genetic traces in modern populations. Therefore, we chose Phoenician-influenced sites on the basis of well-documented historical records and collected new Y-chromosomal data from 1330 men from six such sites, as well as comparative data from the literature. We then developed an analytical strategy to distinguish between lineages specifically associated with the Phoenicians and those spread by geographically similar but historically distinct events, such as the Neolithic, Greek, and Jewish expansions. This involved comparing historically documented Phoenician sites with neighboring non-Phoenician sites for the identification of weak but systematic signatures shared by the Phoenician sites that could not readily be explained by chance or by other expansions. From these comparisons, we found that haplogroup J2, in general, and six Y-STR haplotypes, in particular, exhibited a Phoenician signature that contributed > 6% to the modern Phoenician-influenced populations examined. Our methodology can be applied to any historically documented expansion in which contact and noncontact sites can be identified.

 -

Geographical context of the Phoenician and Greek expansions

(A) Maritime expansions of the Phoenicians (11th century BCE) and Greeks. Red: Phoenicia, Phoenician colonies; pink: Phoenician trading posts; blue: Greece and Greek colonies.

(B) J2 haplogroup frequency comparisons between Phoenician contact regions (thick borders) and nearby non-contact regions (thin borders). Lines indicate paired haplogroup comparisons between two sites. An ellipse indicates a site with multiple population samples. Colored circles indicate the higher haplogroup J2 frequency site in each pair.

(C) Phoenician Colonization Signal 1 (PCS1+) haplotype frequency comparisons between Phoenician contact regions (thick borders) and nearby non-contact regions (thin borders). Lines indicate paired haplotype comparisons between two sites. An ellipse indicates a site with multiple population samples. Colored circles represent the higher PCS1+ frequency site in each pair.

(D–F) Geographical distribution of the PCS1+ (D), PCS2+ (E), and PCS3+ (F) haplotypes in the Mediterranean region. The PCS+ central haplotypes are shown in Table 2. Higher color intensities indicate higher haplotype frequencies; absolute frequencies are given in Table 3. Note the highly enriched coastal and island distribution of these haplotypes and the prominence of all in the Levant.


--David Coma et al.

Am J Hum Genet. 2008 Nov;83(5):633-42. doi:
10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.10.012. Epub 2008 Oct 30.

Identifying genetic traces of historical expansions: Phoenician footprints in the Mediterranean.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18976729

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quote:
One of the main findings derived from the analysis of the Neandertal genome was the evidence for admixture between Neandertals and non-African modern humans. An alternative scenario is that the ancestral population of non-Africans was closer to Neandertals than to Africans because of ancient population substructure. Thus, the study of North African populations is crucial for testing both hypotheses. We analyzed a total of 780,000 SNPs in 125 individuals representing seven different North African locations and searched for their ancestral/derived state in comparison to different human populations and Neandertals. We found that North African populations have a significant excess of derived alleles shared with Neandertals, when compared to sub-Saharan Africans. This excess is similar to that found in non-African humans, a fact that can be interpreted as a sign of Neandertal admixture. Furthermore, the Neandertal's genetic signal is higher in populations with a local, pre-Neolithic North African ancestry. Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals.


 -

Results of the ADMIXTURE analysis (k = 4) with North African populations.


ADMIXTURE was performed on a set of European, North African, Near Eastern and Sub-Saharan populations in order to account for the different admixture proportions in North Africa. Tunisians and Saharawi are the North African populations with highest proportion of autochthonous component, whereas the rest of the populations have greater amounts of admixture with neighboring populations.

 -

PCA analysis of North African, Sub-Saharan, European and Asian populations.

Upper right box: PCA analysis with the African populations (dark blue, Sub-Saharan, light blue, North African), along with three outgroups: chimpanzee, Neandertal and Denisovan. It can be seen that North African populations are placed in the direction of the Neandertal. In the population analysis, the North African groups tend to be placed in an intermediate position between Sub-Saharan and non-African human populations. Population abbreviations are the same as in Table 2.

 -

Neandertal genetic introgression in North African populations as a fraction of that found in Europeans.


Relative proportion of Neandertal ancestry for each population is presented as the dark blue section of the pies on a map of North Africa. Additionally, each population is also represented as a barplot of the different geographic genetic components; in red: North African, in blue: Sub-Saharan, in green: European, in yellow: Near East. Populations are shown as having Neandertal ancestry if the estimates are more than two standard errors from zero. Full name descriptions of these population labels are found in Table 2.



--David Coma et al.

PLoS One. 2012;7(10):e47765. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0047765. Epub 2012 Oct 17.

North African populations carry the signature of admixture with Neandertals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23082212


I always wonderd about this:

quote:
Therefore, the detected ancient admixture is not due to recent Near Eastern or European migrations. Sub-Saharan populations are the only ones not affected by the admixture event with Neandertals.
and

quote:
Recent genetic analysis of North African populations [17] have found that, despite the complex admixture genetic background, there is an autochthonous genomic component which is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow older than 12,000 years ago (ya) (i.e., prior to the Neolithic migrations). This local population substratum seems to represent a genetic discontinuity with the earliest modern human settlers of North Africa (those with the Aterian industry) given the estimated ancestry is younger than 40,000 years ago [17]. The estimated time of Neandertal admixture with modern human populations is between 37,000–86,000 years ago [18].

Figure 3. Neandertal genetic introgression in North African populations as a fraction of that found in Europeans.

--David Coma, Federico Sánchez-Quinto et al.

North African Populations Carry the Signature of Admixture with Neandertals

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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^^Good series of data roundups by the way..


Patrol said:
Their clue here is to claim them as the desandants of slaves. They wrote
the same on Siwa Berbers. That's the gameplay, as they quicly shift:


Indeed. Apparently all those black people in North Africa must only be
descended from "slaves"..


However, the paragroup of North Africa, east and west is E-M78.
The Masalit and Fur are the ancestral carriers of the paragroup.
And E-M78 itself arose at lake Nuba.
Yet, it is eurasian?


Good point. If it arose at Lake Nuba, how does it become "Eurasian"?

=====================================================================

Here are OTHER "North Africans"- that somehow "disappear" in many studies...

 -
Chad


 -
Sudan

 -
Mali

 -
Niger..

 -
Mauritania

The above peoples are all mostly ABOVE the Saharan line.
But apparently, they ain't "authentically" North African enough..
Maybe they ain't "really" black...

--------------------
Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began..

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the lioness,
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African population density, 2000

 -


"West Africa"

"North Africa"

"South Africa"

"East Africa"

The exact boundaries of all of these terms is artifically imposed, all of them are arguable

 -


For instance zarahan proposes that Mauritania, the northern half of Mali and Niger (or about 90% of it) should be regarded as North Africa rather than West Africa
Chad should also be a part of North Africa ( rather than Central Africa)

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Doug M
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As other people have noted, the European academic community is no different today than it was 200 years ago. It was founded on race and racism and is hell bent on trying to prove that "superior" European white folks are the founders of all civilizations OUTSIDE of Europe because that then gives them the claim of "masters of the world" so they can do whatever the hell they want. They have always been trying to come up with some way to introduce themselves into other people's history while not focusing on their own. Where are all the genetic studies of Northwest European DNA? Why isn't there an obsession with that history? Oh, I forgot, there isn't much there to study. And as part of this scheme they created "race science" as a way for Europeans to own and control the way humans were classified according to their "racial" subgroups. However, that scheme fell flat on its face, especially when it comes to 19th century theories like the "dynastic race" theory, which may as well be called the "superior white race theory". Not only was it logically invalid but the facts on the ground did not support it. So now they have a new strategy, which is still the same as the old strategy, but more subtle. Instead of overtly identifying people by "race" directly, now they will use genetics as a replacement for race but to serve the same purpose. Which is why they focus exclusively on coastal north Africa because that population has the metric that they care about: Eurasian mixture. And what they want to do is to say that Eurasians got to North Africa before the Africans did, in a weird backwards round about way. In other words, yeah, the black Africans were there first but sometime in the past they were replaced by Eurasian gene lines. They don't say when this happened. They don't have any ancient remains to prove when, where and how extensive this was, it is all based purely on conjecture. Then they use the fact that Eurasian admixture has dominated the history of coastal North Africa for the last 2000 years as a cover to claim that this was Always the case across all of North Africa. Using genetic markers, they can claim all North Africa was "Eurasian white" without using race labels but effectively accomplishing the same objective. And you know it is B.S. because as others have said they won't use any population in the more Southern areas of any North African countries as part of their genetic sampling. But that will not stop them from claiming these black folks, ancient and modern as part of ancient "Eurasian white" back migrants.

But actually this is good because it still backfires against them. They themselves acknowledge that the populations today in North Africa are not the ancient populations. No matter how much they try and obfuscate and smudge the data, the facts are clear that modern North Africa is the result of heavy mixture with Eurasian migrants, especially in the coastal regions of the North. And if these people are not related to the Neolithic populations then that proves the point that these are not ancient "indigenous" African populations. Secondly, it also proves that these people (those representative so called Eurasian back migrants from coastal North Africa) have nothing to do with the ancient populations who existed during the green phase of the Southern Sahara and Nile Valley as these people were blatantly from inner Africa and were "indigenous". So no matter how they try and spin it, these people are not the same and not related to the ancient ones.

Now to reinforce this, they SHOULD be doing DNA samples of the blacks in the Southern regions of these countries to understand which population has been in place longer and how extensive and ancient was this "Eurasian white" admixture. But they wont.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
African population density, 2000



"West Africa"

"North Africa"

"South Africa"

"East Africa"

The exact boundaries of all of these terms is artifically imposed, all of them are arguable



For instance zarahan proposes that Mauritania, the northern half of Mali and Niger (or about 90% of it) should be regarded as North Africa rather than West Africa
Chad should also be a part of North Africa ( rather than Central Africa)

1) Can you name 5 indigenous ethnic groups from the Sahara-Sahel region, who have been local to the region for the last 5 Kya.


2) citation: "Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara".

I assume they speak of E-M78, E-M81 and so on...?
What do,you think?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
As other people have noted, the European academic community is no different today than it was 200 years ago. It was founded on race and racism and is hell bent on trying to prove that "superior" European white folks are the founders of all civilizations OUTSIDE of Europe because that then gives them the claim of "masters of the world" so they can do whatever the hell they want. They have always been trying to come up with some way to introduce themselves into other people's history while not focusing on their own. Where are all the genetic studies of Northwest European DNA? Why isn't there an obsession with that history? Oh, I forgot, there isn't much there to study. And as part of this scheme they created "race science" as a way for Europeans to own and control the way humans were classified according to their "racial" subgroups. However, that scheme fell flat on its face, especially when it comes to 19th century theories like the "dynastic race" theory, which may as well be called the "superior white race theory". Not only was it logically invalid but the facts on the ground did not support it. So now they have a new strategy, which is still the same as the old strategy, but more subtle. Instead of overtly identifying people by "race" directly, now they will use genetics as a replacement for race but to serve the same purpose. Which is why they focus exclusively on coastal north Africa because that population has the metric that they care about: Eurasian mixture. And what they want to do is to say that Eurasians got to North Africa before the Africans did, in a weird backwards round about way. In other words, yeah, the black Africans were there first but sometime in the past they were replaced by Eurasian gene lines. They don't say when this happened. They don't have any ancient remains to prove when, where and how extensive this was, it is all based purely on conjecture. Then they use the fact that Eurasian admixture has dominated the history of coastal North Africa for the last 2000 years as a cover to claim that this was Always the case across all of North Africa. Using genetic markers, they can claim all North Africa was "Eurasian white" without using race labels but effectively accomplishing the same objective. And you know it is B.S. because as others have said they won't use any population in the more Southern areas of any North African countries as part of their genetic sampling. But that will not stop them from claiming these black folks, ancient and modern as part of ancient "Eurasian white" back migrants.

But actually this is good because it still backfires against them. They themselves acknowledge that the populations today in North Africa are not the ancient populations. No matter how much they try and obfuscate and smudge the data, the facts are clear that modern North Africa is the result of heavy mixture with Eurasian migrants, especially in the coastal regions of the North. And if these people are not related to the Neolithic populations then that proves the point that these are not ancient "indigenous" African populations. Secondly, it also proves that these people (those representative so called Eurasian back migrants from coastal North Africa) have nothing to do with the ancient populations who existed during the green phase of the Southern Sahara and Nile Valley as these people were blatantly from inner Africa and were "indigenous". So no matter how they try and spin it, these people are not the same and not related to the ancient ones.

Now to reinforce this, they SHOULD be doing DNA samples of the blacks in the Southern regions of these countries to understand which population has been in place longer and how extensive and ancient was this "Eurasian white" admixture. But they wont.

In fact what they are trying to say is that cacadoids, a word which as was used until early this century, and was replaced by the word Eurasians, have been all over the globe. And that everybody in Africa, who doesn't look stereotypical negroe has Eurasian hum cacasoid admixture. Since they penetrated Africa 40Kya and everytime in between, routinely, until this very day.

I recently encountered in to someone on YouTube, some Italian who vividly believes this. And gathers his info from the weirdest places. Wikipedia, "bio forum", YouTube videos etc.

From what we can read it is clear there a two apposing camps. Or maybe three. With the last camp being unsure. Gives some but takes back as well.

All-in-all, I do see the narcissism you refer at.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
^^Good series of data roundups by the way..


Patrol said:
Their clue here is to claim them as the desandants of slaves. They wrote
the same on Siwa Berbers. That's the gameplay, as they quicly shift:


Indeed. Apparently all those black people in North Africa must only be
descended from "slaves"..


However, the paragroup of North Africa, east and west is E-M78.
The Masalit and Fur are the ancestral carriers of the paragroup.
And E-M78 itself arose at lake Nuba.
Yet, it is eurasian?


Good point. If it arose at Lake Nuba, how does it become "Eurasian"?

=====================================================================

Here are OTHER "North Africans"- that somehow "disappear" in many studies...



The above peoples are all mostly ABOVE the Saharan line.
But apparently, they ain't "authentically" North African enough..
Maybe they ain't "really" black...

I am surprised they never speak directly on ethnic groups or "tribe" as being descendants of these supposed slaves? They never explain the history of these supposed enslaved people. They write down slave this that, and that's it. Swallow it take it, the way I give it. And don't argue.

Which looks very much like narcissism if you ask me.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
As other people have noted, the European academic community is no different today than it was 200 years ago. It was founded on race and racism and is hell bent on trying to prove that "superior" European white folks are the founders of all civilizations OUTSIDE of Europe because that then gives them the claim of "masters of the world" so they can do whatever the hell they want. They have always been trying to come up with some way to introduce themselves into other people's history while not focusing on their own. Where are all the genetic studies of Northwest European DNA? Why isn't there an obsession with that history? Oh, I forgot, there isn't much there to study. And as part of this scheme they created "race science" as a way for Europeans to own and control the way humans were classified according to their "racial" subgroups. However, that scheme fell flat on its face, especially when it comes to 19th century theories like the "dynastic race" theory, which may as well be called the "superior white race theory". Not only was it logically invalid but the facts on the ground did not support it. So now they have a new strategy, which is still the same as the old strategy, but more subtle. Instead of overtly identifying people by "race" directly, now they will use genetics as a replacement for race but to serve the same purpose. Which is why they focus exclusively on coastal north Africa because that population has the metric that they care about: Eurasian mixture. And what they want to do is to say that Eurasians got to North Africa before the Africans did, in a weird backwards round about way. In other words, yeah, the black Africans were there first but sometime in the past they were replaced by Eurasian gene lines. They don't say when this happened. They don't have any ancient remains to prove when, where and how extensive this was, it is all based purely on conjecture. Then they use the fact that Eurasian admixture has dominated the history of coastal North Africa for the last 2000 years as a cover to claim that this was Always the case across all of North Africa. Using genetic markers, they can claim all North Africa was "Eurasian white" without using race labels but effectively accomplishing the same objective. And you know it is B.S. because as others have said they won't use any population in the more Southern areas of any North African countries as part of their genetic sampling. But that will not stop them from claiming these black folks, ancient and modern as part of ancient "Eurasian white" back migrants.

But actually this is good because it still backfires against them. They themselves acknowledge that the populations today in North Africa are not the ancient populations. No matter how much they try and obfuscate and smudge the data, the facts are clear that modern North Africa is the result of heavy mixture with Eurasian migrants, especially in the coastal regions of the North. And if these people are not related to the Neolithic populations then that proves the point that these are not ancient "indigenous" African populations. Secondly, it also proves that these people (those representative so called Eurasian back migrants from coastal North Africa) have nothing to do with the ancient populations who existed during the green phase of the Southern Sahara and Nile Valley as these people were blatantly from inner Africa and were "indigenous". So no matter how they try and spin it, these people are not the same and not related to the ancient ones.

Now to reinforce this, they SHOULD be doing DNA samples of the blacks in the Southern regions of these countries to understand which population has been in place longer and how extensive and ancient was this "Eurasian white" admixture. But they wont.

Doug M, this is one of the promoters, who has inveseted a lot of time into what youve explained.

quote:
I think… the ‘out of Africa’ theory of human evolution is somewhat inaccurate, even though the media seem to be all for it. It’s not amazingly popular among anthropologists and geneticists (see blog for papers on that) although it’s repeatedly printed as the proven truth. I’ve got multiple DNA and anthropological studies that don’t support it.
https://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/about-2/
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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:


 -

Here are other "North Africans"- that somehow "disappear" in many studies...

 -
Chad


 -
Sudan

 -
Mali

 -
Niger..

 -
Mauritania

The above peoples are all mostly ABOVE the Saharan line.
But apparently, they ain't "authentically" North African enough..
Maybe they ain't "really" black...
--------------------------------------------

For instance zarahan proposes that Mauritania, the northern half of Mali and Niger (or about 90% of it) should be regarded as North Africa rather than West Africa
Chad should also be a part of North Africa ( rather than Central Africa)

I don't propose it. These countries are recognized as
"North African" by many credible geographers. The coastal sampling
is only partially valid, and relates heavily to the coast,
conveniently leaving out much of "North Africa."


Madilda bloviated:
I think… the ‘out of Africa’ theory of human evolution is somewhat inaccurate, even though the media seem to be all for it. It’s not amazingly popular among anthropologists and geneticists (see blog for papers on that) although it’s repeatedly printed as the proven truth. I’ve got multiple DNA and anthropological studies that don’t support it.

Yet numerous studies on her own website debunk her above statement,
as well as her strawman claims about "the afrocentrists."
The "afrocentrist" bogeyman is used as a tactic- pump up the bogeyman
and that way they can dismiss or minimize the hard data, as people focus
on the bogus bogeyman. Meanwhile they can pose as such paragons
of "objectivity." This is the same Lefkowitz era playbook.
And she doesn't even realize her statement contradicts itself.
If it is "not amazingly popular," why then as she says, it is
repeatedly "printed as the truth" in almost every major
(and many minor) scientific publications and textbooks?
If its repeated so often in so many mainstream publications
and venues, that in itself shows its popularity. Duh..

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Who is this Lefkowitz?


More on Mathilda:

I also think that racial differences are a long way from being cosmetic, and there’s no evolutionary reason for us to be the homogeneous species that a lot of people claim we are- it would mean evolution stopped the day modern humans evolved, which is just anti-logic. There’s biological evidence to the contrary, like different gestation spans, twinning rates etc, and more recent genetics publications that have outright backed race as valid. Which will instantly label me as a racist in many peoples eyes, which is probably why a lot of publishing Phds don’t comment publicly on race (one admitted as much to me). Anyone reading this, the majority of forensic anthropologists take the ‘race is real’ POV, and so do biologists. Anyone who spends a lot of time reading the kinds of papers I will note classic racial terminology is very much alive and in use. The rest take a ‘clinal variation stance (each to their own) but very few maintian ‘we are all the same’.


Personally… I’m currently an anthropology student, now my youngest has started school. Hence the lighter blogging schedule these days. I’ve been blogging nearly two years now.

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 -


^ For instance zarahan proposes that Mauritania, the northern half of Mali and Niger (or about 90% of it) should be regarded as North Africa rather than West Africa
Chad should also be a part of North Africa ( rather than Central Africa) [/qb][/QUOTE]

quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

I don't propose it. These countries are recognized as
"North African" by many credible geographers.


Your proposal is that the anthropology of North Africa be determined by geography rather than contiguos population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation. I disagree with that.


popualtion density map, Africa 2000
 -

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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
As other people have noted, the European academic community is no different today than it was 200 years ago. It was founded on race and racism and is hell bent on trying to prove that "superior" European white folks are the founders of all civilizations OUTSIDE of Europe because that then gives them the claim of "masters of the world" so they can do whatever the hell they want. They have always been trying to come up with some way to introduce themselves into other people's history while not focusing on their own. Where are all the genetic studies of Northwest European DNA? Why isn't there an obsession with that history? Oh, I forgot, there isn't much there to study. And as part of this scheme they created "race science" as a way for Europeans to own and control the way humans were classified according to their "racial" subgroups. However, that scheme fell flat on its face, especially when it comes to 19th century theories like the "dynastic race" theory, which may as well be called the "superior white race theory". Not only was it logically invalid but the facts on the ground did not support it. So now they have a new strategy, which is still the same as the old strategy, but more subtle. Instead of overtly identifying people by "race" directly, now they will use genetics as a replacement for race but to serve the same purpose. Which is why they focus exclusively on coastal north Africa because that population has the metric that they care about: Eurasian mixture. And what they want to do is to say that Eurasians got to North Africa before the Africans did, in a weird backwards round about way. In other words, yeah, the black Africans were there first but sometime in the past they were replaced by Eurasian gene lines. They don't say when this happened. They don't have any ancient remains to prove when, where and how extensive this was, it is all based purely on conjecture. Then they use the fact that Eurasian admixture has dominated the history of coastal North Africa for the last 2000 years as a cover to claim that this was Always the case across all of North Africa. Using genetic markers, they can claim all North Africa was "Eurasian white" without using race labels but effectively accomplishing the same objective. And you know it is B.S. because as others have said they won't use any population in the more Southern areas of any North African countries as part of their genetic sampling. But that will not stop them from claiming these black folks, ancient and modern as part of ancient "Eurasian white" back migrants.

But actually this is good because it still backfires against them. They themselves acknowledge that the populations today in North Africa are not the ancient populations. No matter how much they try and obfuscate and smudge the data, the facts are clear that modern North Africa is the result of heavy mixture with Eurasian migrants, especially in the coastal regions of the North. And if these people are not related to the Neolithic populations then that proves the point that these are not ancient "indigenous" African populations. Secondly, it also proves that these people (those representative so called Eurasian back migrants from coastal North Africa) have nothing to do with the ancient populations who existed during the green phase of the Southern Sahara and Nile Valley as these people were blatantly from inner Africa and were "indigenous". So no matter how they try and spin it, these people are not the same and not related to the ancient ones.

Now to reinforce this, they SHOULD be doing DNA samples of the blacks in the Southern regions of these countries to understand which population has been in place longer and how extensive and ancient was this "Eurasian white" admixture. But they wont.

In fact what they are trying to say is that cacadoids, a word which as was used until early this century, and was replaced by the word Eurasians, have been all over the globe. And that everybody in Africa, who doesn't look stereotypical negroe has Eurasian hum cacasoid admixture. Since they penetrated Africa 40Kya and everytime in between, routinely, until this very day.

I recently encountered in to someone on YouTube, some Italian who vividly believes this. And gathers his info from the weirdest places. Wikipedia, "bio forum", YouTube videos etc.

From what we can read it is clear there a two apposing camps. Or maybe three. With the last camp being unsure. Gives some but takes back as well.

All-in-all, I do see the narcissism you refer at.

That isn't narcissism it is just lying. There is no ancient Northern or Western European high civilization they can point at from 5,000 years ago and claim so they have to go all over the world and steal everyone else's history in order to feel good about themselves. And it just isn't feeling good about themselves, it is feeling good about STEALING from everybody else and being able to kick everyone elses behinds so bad that they are either: dead (genocide), near dead (partial genocide/assimilation), slaves (dependent on them for everything) or brainwashed wannabees who admire and uphold everything they do and emulate it and want to be part of it. And stealing the history, putting themselves into it and using that to reinforce the fact that they are the billy bad ass on the block is the whole point.
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More on Mathilda37 comment section. It's pure comedy though.


uraeus | July 28, 2008 at 9:36 pm | Reply
Dear mathilda.

I am a kabyle Berber[Amazigh], I am of pure Kabyle stock, and do not have any sub-saharan DNA. Where do you get this nonsense that Berbers have 25% sub-saharan DNA, I have had my DNA tested and I am E3b2 now known as E3b1b. And my mitochondrial DNA has no trace of sub-saharan DNA. Not all Berbers have mixed with sub-saharans, I think that you will find that the Kabyle and the Riff Berbers and many more Tribes are of pure Berber stock. For your information my mother had urburn coloured hair and my father was blond.I, myself have black hair, my brother has brown, my sister blond and she has bright blue eyes like my mother.


mathilda37 | July 29, 2008 at 10:20 am | Reply
You have no idea how many arguments I have over this subject. And that 25% is maternal only, the overall total is a bit less.

‘Berber’ covers a lot of ground, Uraeus. It includes the Tuareg and they are mostly black. The Kabyle and Northern Moroccans have very little sub Saharan ancestry in them. But if you add up all the berbers (including those in Northern Mali) that’s the average you get.

You know, I keep telling black Americans that Moroccan Berbers get insulted if you call them black, but they never believe me. Well, here’s the proof.


uraeus | September 15, 2008 at 3:06 pm | Reply
Dear matilda

The tuareg are not actually Berbers,they are more closely related to the Beja people of the Sudan, from which they broke away some 5,000 thousand years ago or so, as their DNA proves, yes they do speak a Berber dialect, after entering the Berber territories they came under the tutelage of the Berbers thus speaking a Berber dialect. They are also not black, the black ones are called Haratin, and are the descendants of the Tuareg slaves; who now live like the Tuareg.


mathilda37 | September 17, 2008 at 9:15 am | Reply
You wouldn’t believe how often I hear Tuaregs being touted as ‘the only real Berbers’ by black Americans…

They have some Berber specific DNA in them, just not much.

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the lioness,
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^ matilda is juts a blogger. I would like to know what is so comical about these comments
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ matilda is juts a blogger. I would like to know what is so comical about these comments

It's just a blogger, who a lot of stupid people love to follow. Of course I am talking about eurocentrists.

Most of them are like extremists and vivid racist. Someone told me a few weeks back that this Mathilda is now 7Phoenician7.

Anyway, this Mathilda individual is a racist or rather fascist. I have seen some of this person comments/ expressions.

Now the problem I am having here is that this universty of Barsalona has used a photo collage, which is clearly from the" internet blogger". Howcome and why?

Also, howcome Branna Henn had on her blog a link to this Mathilda blogger back in 2011-2012? I commented qbout it here on Egyptsearch. And sortly thereafter that hyperlink was gone from her page.


Now the funny/ comical part is:


quote:
Haplogroup E (four different haplo- types) accounts for the majority (34.4%) of the chromo- some and is widespread in the Sudan. E-M78 represents 74.5% of haplogroup E, the highest frequencies observed in Masalit and Fur populations.
--Hisham Y. Hassan,1 Peter A. Underhill,2 Luca L. Cavalli-Sforza,2 and Muntaser E. Ibrahim1*

Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese: Restricted Gene Flow, Concordance With Language, Geography, and History

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 000:000–000 (2008)


quote:

“Haplogroup E

Haplogroup E is the most frequent haplogroup in Africa, but is also found in the Middle East, southern Europe and Asia (Cruciani et al., 2002; Semino et al., 2004; Karafet et al., 2008). Among its sub-clades, E-M81 and E-M78 seem to be of North African origin with Paleolithic and Neolithic expansions that reached surrounding areas (Arredi et al., 2004; Cruciani et al., 2007).

Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004)) with cline frequencies decreasing eastward: Algeria (45 %), Libya (34 %) and Egypt (10 %) (Robino et al., 2008; Triki-Fendri et al., submitted; Arredi et al., 2004).


Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %). 

Hence, the distribution of this haplogroup in Africa closely matches the present area of Berber-speaking population’s allocation on the continent, suggesting a close haplogroup-ethnic group parallelism (Bosch et al., 2001; Cruciani et al., 2002; 2004; Arredi et al., 2004; Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., 2011; Bekada et al., 2013). However, knowing that the Berber dialects have been replaced by Arabic in North African populations, carriers of E-M81 haplogroup are currently Arab-speaking peoples whose ancestors were Berber-speaking.

[...]

Outside of Africa, E-M81 is almost absent in the Middle East and in Europe (with the exception of Iberia and Sicily). The presence of E-M81 in the Iberian Peninsula (12 % in southern Portugal) (Cruciani et al., 2004) has been attributed to trans-Mediterranean contacts linked to the Islamic influence, since it is typically Berber (Bosch et al., 2001; Semino et al., 2004; Beleza et al., 2006; Alvarez et al., 2009; Cruciani et al., 2007; Trombetta et al., 2011).

--S Triki-Fendri, A Rebai 2015

Synthetic review on the genetic relatedness between North Africa and Arabia deduced from paternal lineage distributions

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Repost:

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
African population density, 2000



"West Africa"

"North Africa"

"South Africa"

"East Africa"

The exact boundaries of all of these terms is artifically imposed, all of them are arguable



For instance zarahan proposes that Mauritania, the northern half of Mali and Niger (or about 90% of it) should be regarded as North Africa rather than West Africa
Chad should also be a part of North Africa ( rather than Central Africa)

1) Can you name 5 indigenous ethnic groups from the Sahara-Sahel region, who have been local to the region for the last 5 Kya.


2) citation: "Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara".

I assume they speak of E-M78, E-M81 and so on...?
What do,you think?


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The berber photo collage is not bad. You have no critique of it.
You call her a racist and fascist with no example demonstrating that. You have a bunch of data with no explantion of how it relates to the conversation from her blog on berbers. You have a bunch of comments also from a Kabyle and you are blaming her for the Kabyle's comments !
And it's not even an example of the blog post, it's just the comment section. This is what everybody is supposed to be concerned about?

You have no critcial analysis
You just put a bunch of comments, some are reasonable statements and say the whole thing is comic racist-facist

Maybe if you pointed to a particular sentence and explained why it's racist you might be able to make an argument.
But so far you have not

The woman is not even a hardcore Eurocentric or right winger, she says the Tuareg are mostly black and that the Kabyle and Northern Moroccans have very little sub Saharan ancestry in them. What the hell is wrong with that?
Anybody who thinks she is hardcore racist 7Phoenician7 is not observant as to the differences. It is ismply made up bull crap.
I should know I am Mathilda*

Again, the more controversial comments come from 'uraeus" a Kabyle berber


Other posters are able to make arguments. You simply copy and paste and think that explains everything, well it doesn't

You still have no critical analysis

You let zarahan and Doug go into their routine rhetoric instead of an in depth analysis of the David Comas are bringing up Mathilda material form 2008

That's old shyt deal with the new shyt insiead of the boring replay

_________________

You can't expect a dialog by posting tons of material
It has to go one point at a time

__________________

*just kidding

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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


2) citation: "FThe data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.".

I assume they speak of E-M78, E-M81 and so on...?
What do,you think?

Although the Siwa don't carry M81 the other berbers do and it's mainly a Maghreb haplgroup except for some Tuaregs in Burkino Faso and Mali. Many of the Mahgreb berbers have high frequencies of mtDNA H but that is not considered "native"
The above Universitat Pompeu Fabra statement is not explained. I can't figure out the exact intent. It's poorly conceived in my opinion
It's better to take out one or two David Comas statements and deal with them

Or better yet you could email Universitat Pompeu Fabra and find out what genes they are talking about

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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


mathilda37 | July 29, 2008 at 10:20 am | Reply

‘Berber’ covers a lot of ground, Uraeus. It includes the Tuareg and they are mostly black. The Kabyle and Northern Moroccans have very little sub Saharan ancestry in them.


^^ This is correct and why the Maghreb berbers are different from the Sahel berbers and why zarahan is wrong


I have also agued in the past that "North Africa" can have about 5 different defintions. Therfore it is better for reserachers to deal with the terms "Maghreb" and "Sahel" and "berber"


Nevertheless if commentary is made about "North Africa" it doen't matter which definition you choose as long as you indicate which countries you will be discussing.
The information will apply to the countries your research data is from so that if you call it North Africa or only a part of North Africa the information remains the same, according to the countries you have choosen to discuss


In other words if I choose 10 states in the U.S. and called that the United States somebody could argue I left out 40 others.
But the data would still be valid as per those 10 states, the name of the grouping is a separate issue

___________________________

Berber is a culture, they are historically nomads and include a wide range of ethnicties


For instance

Siwa

M81 1.1%
B2a1a 28.0
R1b1* 26.9

____________

Niger Tuareg

E1B1a 44.4%
R1b 33%
M81 11.1%

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


mathilda37 | July 29, 2008 at 10:20 am | Reply

‘Berber’ covers a lot of ground, Uraeus. It includes the Tuareg and they are mostly black. The Kabyle and Northern Moroccans have very little sub Saharan ancestry in them.


^^ This is correct and why the Maghreb berbers are different from the Sahel berbers and why zarahan is wrong


I have also agued in the past that "North Africa" can have about 5 different defintions. Therfore it is better for reserachers to deal with the terms "Maghreb" and "Sahel" and "berber"


Nevertheless if commentary is made about "North Africa" it doen't matter which definition you choose as long as you indicate which countries you will be discussing.
The information will apply to the countries your research data is from so that if you call it North Africa or only a part of North Africa the information remains the same, according to the countries you have choosen to discuss


In other words if I choose 10 states in the U.S. and called that the United States somebody could argue I left out 40 others.
But the data would still be valid as per those 10 states, the name of the grouping is a separate issue

___________________________

Berber is a culture, they are historically nomads and include a wide range of ethnicties


For instance

Siwa

M81 1.1%
B2a1a 28.0
R1b1* 26.9

____________

Niger Tuareg

E1B1a 44.4%
R1b 33%
M81 11.1%

What groud do the Tuareg cover?


And can you name 5 ancient Tamazight (Berber) populations/ tribes. You had your training over the years, by the well known Dana.
Except for the following of course.

 -


 -

quote:
Nevertheless if commentary is made about "North Africa" it doen't matter which definition you choose as long as you indicate which countries you will be discussing.
The information will apply to the countries your research data is from so that if you call it North Africa or only a part of North Africa the information remains the same, according to the countries you have choosen to discuss

So, they could have left out these coastal populations. And focus more on those from the Sahara, since the inhabitation took place from the South, first and foremost. Because then we do see a progression from South to North.

quote:
In other words if I choose 10 states in the U.S. and called that the United States somebody could argue I left out 40 others.
But the data would still be valid as per those 10 states, the name of the grouping is a separate issue

It depends on the purpose, usually it's called fraudulent behavior and data manipulation. In the streets they called a funking lie.

It's a bit how Tim Wise explained it.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=010614;p=1#000000

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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


2) citation: "FThe data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.".

I assume they speak of E-M78, E-M81 and so on...?
What do,you think?

Although the Siwa don't carry M81 the other berbers do and it's mainly a Maghreb haplgroup except for some Tuaregs in Burkino Faso and Mali. Many of the Mahgreb berbers have high frequencies of mtDNA H but that is not considered "native"
The above Universitat Pompeu Fabra statement is not explained. I can't figure out the exact intent. It's poorly conceived in my opinion
It's better to take out one or two David Comas statements and deal with them

Or better yet you could email Universitat Pompeu Fabra and find out what genes they are talking about

LOL you are straight up comedy.

--Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004))

--Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %).


quote:
Mahgreb berbers have high frequencies of mtDNA H but that is not considered "native"
Why isn't it "considered native"?

Hg E wasn't considered African as well as did other Hg's.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


2) citation: "FThe data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.".

I assume they speak of E-M78, E-M81 and so on...?
What do,you think?

Although the Siwa don't carry M81 the other berbers do and it's mainly a Maghreb haplgroup except for some Tuaregs in Burkino Faso and Mali. Many of the Mahgreb berbers have high frequencies of mtDNA H but that is not considered "native"
The above Universitat Pompeu Fabra statement is not explained. I can't figure out the exact intent. It's poorly conceived in my opinion
It's better to take out one or two David Comas statements and deal with them

Or better yet you could email Universitat Pompeu Fabra and find out what genes they are talking about

LOL you are straight up comedy.

--Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004))


You are speaking about M81 in Morocco like it's some correction to what I said.
Yet I said it's mainly a Maghreb haplogroup. This means you must not know that Morocco is in the Maghreb. Yes that is comical

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

--Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %).



You are speaking about M81 carried by the Tuareg like it's some correction to what I said.
Yet I said it's mainly a Maghreb haplogroup. This means you must not know that Libya is in the Maghreb. Yes that is comical

You are speaking about Claudio Ottoni who wrote about the Libyan Tuareg like it's something new to me.
The fact that you forgot I have posted about Ottoni's articles many many times and you posted in those same threads is quite comical.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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Your proposal is that the anthropology of North Africa be determined by geography rather than contiguos population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation. I disagree with that.


Re your formula- "contiguous population densities,
ethnic groups and genetic relation" can all be
found using geography at one level or another.
And indeed to determine "contiguous population
densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation" in some location,
you have to do sampling by geography
-duh. Else
what's the point of studying a location or area?
If you are going to claim something as "North African"
yet only sample limited coastal regions then you are
not getting a full picture of your own formula-
"contiguous population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation."
Your alleged "disagreement" contradicts your own standard
diversionary behavior seeking to downplay African diversity,
and your claimed desire for answers on "contiguous
population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Your proposal is that the anthropology of North Africa be determined by geography rather than contiguos population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation. I disagree with that.


Re your formula- "contiguous population densities,
ethnic groups and genetic relation" can all be
found using geography at one level or another.
And indeed to determine "contiguous population
densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation" in some location,
you have to do sampling by geography
-duh. Else
what's the point of studying a location or area?
If you are going to claim something as "North African"
yet only sample limited coastal regions then you are
not getting a full picture of your own formula-
"contiguous population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation."
Your alleged "disagreement" contradicts your own standard
diversionary behavior seeking to downplay African diversity,
and your claimed desire for answers on "contiguous
population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation.

You keep ignoring this >

 -

This thread is about analyzing David Coma's articles
Instead you are using it divide West Africans and change them into North Africans
The genetics goes against this as well

You are merely giving an opinion on the semantics of "North Africa" and the problem with that is you have said the same thing over and over again a millions times and posted your graphic a million times, enough already, deal with the articles point by point, your semantics doesn't address many of the issues raised. It is merely more zarahan diversionary tactics + promotional materials

I on the other hand have been talking about the Tuaregs, the genetics of the berbers etc,

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


2) citation: "FThe data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.".

I assume they speak of E-M78, E-M81 and so on...?
What do,you think?

Although the Siwa don't carry M81 the other berbers do and it's mainly a Maghreb haplgroup except for some Tuaregs in Burkino Faso and Mali. Many of the Mahgreb berbers have high frequencies of mtDNA H but that is not considered "native"
The above Universitat Pompeu Fabra statement is not explained. I can't figure out the exact intent. It's poorly conceived in my opinion
It's better to take out one or two David Comas statements and deal with them

Or better yet you could email Universitat Pompeu Fabra and find out what genes they are talking about

LOL you are straight up comedy.

--Firstly, E-M81 is the most common haplogroup in North Africa showing its highest concentrations in Northwestern Africa (76 % in Saharawis in Morocco (Arredi et al., 2004))


You are speaking about M81 in Morocco like it's some correction to what I said.
Yet I said it's mainly a Maghreb haplogroup. This means you must not know that Morocco is in the Maghreb. Yes that is comical

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

--Besides, Ottoni et al., (2011) have reported that E-M81 appear to constitute a common paternal genetic matrix in the Tuareg populations where it was encountered at high frequency (89 %).



You are speaking about M81 carried by the Tuareg like it's some correction to what I said.
Yet I said it's mainly a Maghreb haplogroup. This means you must not know that Libya is in the Maghreb. Yes that is comical

You are speaking about Claudio Ottoni who wrote about the Libyan Tuareg like it's something new to me.
The fact that you forgot I have posted about Ottoni's articles many many times and you posted in those same threads is quite comical.

Is E-M78 the paragroup in Northwest Africa or not?

It must mean I do not you know Libya is in the Magreb? Libya is Northeast Africa. Not Northwest Africa. So, we know know that E-V68 arose in Sudan, a neighboring country of Libya. And E-M81 becomes local to the Magreb. We also know now that the Tuareg and West Saharans are the main carriers of this gene pool. We also know the origin of "Berber" you know as a linguistic group. LOL

How have I forgotten to post on Ottoni's articles? LOL


Have you forgotten the Barbary coast pirates and invasions from Europe and middle east, as well as the enslavemnt of europenas, Orientalism? Indeed it's comical.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Your proposal is that the anthropology of North Africa be determined by geography rather than contiguos population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation. I disagree with that.


Re your formula- "contiguous population densities,
ethnic groups and genetic relation" can all be
found using geography at one level or another.
And indeed to determine "contiguous population
densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation" in some location,
you have to do sampling by geography
-duh. Else
what's the point of studying a location or area?
If you are going to claim something as "North African"
yet only sample limited coastal regions then you are
not getting a full picture of your own formula-
"contiguous population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation."
Your alleged "disagreement" contradicts your own standard
diversionary behavior seeking to downplay African diversity,
and your claimed desire for answers on "contiguous
population densities, ethnic groups and genetic relation.

You keep ignoring this >

 -

This thread is about analyzing David Coma's articles
Instead you are using it divide West Africans and change them into North Africans
The genetics goes against this as well

You are merely giving an opinion on the semantics of "North Africa" and the problem with that is you have said the same thing over and over again a millions times and posted your graphic a million times, enough already, deal with the articles point by point, your semantics doesn't address many of the issues raised. It is merely more zarahan diversionary tactics + promotional materials

I on the other hand have been talking about the Tuaregs, the genetics of the berbers etc,

LOL Such nonsense, of course the Sahara isn't going to be as populated as below and above the Sahara belt. Ironic is however that these Sahara popualions carry the main group of Hg E-M81.These people also can be found in the Sahel btw. The publication doesn't refect this image.


So, I am going to ask you again, can you name 5 ethnic groups from the Sahara who have resided their for the last 5 thousand years.

And can you mention 5 original Berber tribes.

You keep ignoring this, how typical.

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Ish Geber
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Now, lets take a map with the names of these countries/ borders on it, and review them one step at a time.

Accourding to what The Lioness posted, North Sudan, North Chad, North Niger, North Mali, Mauritania,West Sahara are not, or least likely populated. [Confused] Right. [Cool] And thus automatically don't count in the consensus. The populationdensity according to The Lioness is between 0,1% and 10%. But more likely 5%.

I wonder if this is actaully correct? [Big Grin]


 -


Population, total
39.35 million 2014

http://data.worldbank.org/country/sudan

Population, total
11.91 million 2014

http://data.worldbank.org/country/south-sudan


They don't segragate, but accumulate the data, North and South Sudan:


As of 1 January 2015, the population of Sudan was estimated to be 40 035 397 people

http://countrymeters.info/en/Sudan


Population, total
13.59 million 2014

http://data.worldbank.org/country/chad


During 2015 Chad population is estimated to be increased by 265 461 people and reach 13 479 061 in the beginning of 2016.

http://countrymeters.info/en/Chad


Population, total
19.11 million 2014

http://data.worldbank.org/country/niger


As of 1 January 2015, the population of Niger was estimated to be 19 101 274 people.

http://countrymeters.info/en/Niger


Population, total
17.09 million 2014

http://data.worldbank.org/country/mali


As of 1 January 2015, the population of Mali was estimated to be 16 047 226 people.

http://countrymeters.info/en/Mali


Population, total
3.970 million 2014

http://data.worldbank.org/country/mauritania


As of 1 January 2015, the population of Mauritania was estimated to be 4 069 988 people.

http://countrymeters.info/en/Mauritania


As of 1 January 2015, the population of Western Sahara was estimated to be 619 530 people.

http://countrymeters.info/en/Western_Sahara

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Ish Geber
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quote:

Discussion

In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians. During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (com- munities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the moun- tains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).

At present, they are restricted to some isolates in the south who maintain the Berber language and to some populations in the north who lack an origin language.

Many genetic studies on Tunisian Berber populations demonstrate the hetero- geneity of Berbers with respect to European and sub-Saharan African contributions and the mosaic structure of Tunisian Berber populations with an absence of ethnic, linguistic, and geographic effects (Cherni et al. 2010).

--Sabeh Frigi, Lotfi Cherni, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid

Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

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the lioness,
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 -

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QB] Now, lets take a map with the names of these countries/ borders on it, and review them one step at a time.

Accourding to what The Lioness posted, North Sudan, North Chad, North Niger, North Mali, Mauritania,West Sahara are not, or least likely populated. [Confused] Right. [Cool] And thus automatically don't count in the consensus. The populationdensity according to The Lioness is between 0,1% and 10%. But more likely 5%.

I wonder if this is actaully correct? [Big Grin]



You must not know how to interpret the above map and now you think your misinterprertation applies to me

It shows all of these countries are populated with millions of people but the there are much more people in the South of each country

It also shows how these populaltion densities are contiguos with West Africa rather than North Africa

Meanwhile the population of the Maghreb is concentrated in the North

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:

Discussion

In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians. During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (com- munities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the moun- tains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).

At present, they are restricted to some isolates in the south who maintain the Berber language and to some populations in the north who lack an origin language.

Many genetic studies on Tunisian Berber populations demonstrate the hetero- geneity of Berbers with respect to European and sub-Saharan African contributions and the mosaic structure of Tunisian Berber populations with an absence of ethnic, linguistic, and geographic effects (Cherni et al. 2010).

--Sabeh Frigi, Lotfi Cherni, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid

Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

"Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (com- munities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996)."

^^^ this is why genetically the Sahel is more related to West Africa than North Africa because these invasions and migrations by foreigners were not as prominent there.
-even though Tuareg as a culture overlaps both regions

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sudanese
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So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QB] Now, lets take a map with the names of these countries/ borders on it, and review them one step at a time.

Accourding to what The Lioness posted, North Sudan, North Chad, North Niger, North Mali, Mauritania,West Sahara are not, or least likely populated. [Confused] Right. [Cool] And thus automatically don't count in the consensus. The populationdensity according to The Lioness is between 0,1% and 10%. But more likely 5%.

I wonder if this is actaully correct? [Big Grin]



You must not know how to interpret the above map and now you think your misinterprertation applies to me

It shows all of these countries are populated with millions of people but the there are much more people in the South of each country

It also shows how these populaltion densities are contiguos with West Africa rather than North Africa

Meanwhile the population of the Maghreb is concentrated in the North

"It shows all of these countries are populated with millions of people but the there are much more people in the South of each country"

I know there are relatively more people at the south of each country.

However, you're suggesting that the North of these countries is densely populated, which I beg to differ. [Big Grin]

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:

Discussion

In this study we attempted to better elucidate the ancient African genetic background in the northwest African area, particularly in Tunisia. To this aim, we focused our study on Berber populations that are considered representative of the ancient North African populations that probably derived from Neolithic Capsians. During historic times, Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (com- munities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996). During these invasions, Berbers were forced back to the moun- tains and to certain villages in southern Tunisia (Fadhlaoui-Zid et al. 2004).

At present, they are restricted to some isolates in the south who maintain the Berber language and to some populations in the north who lack an origin language.

Many genetic studies on Tunisian Berber populations demonstrate the hetero- geneity of Berbers with respect to European and sub-Saharan African contributions and the mosaic structure of Tunisian Berber populations with an absence of ethnic, linguistic, and geographic effects (Cherni et al. 2010).

--Sabeh Frigi, Lotfi Cherni, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid

Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations

"Berbers experienced a long and complicated history with many invasions, conquests, and migrations by Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals, Byzantines, Arabs, Bedouins, Spanish, Turks, Andalusians, sub-Saharans (com- munities settled in Jerba and Gabes in the 16th–19th centuries), and French (Brett and Fentress 1996)."

^^^ this is why genetically the Sahel is more related to West Africa than North Africa because these invasions and migrations by foreigners were not as prominent there.
-even though Tuareg as a culture overlaps both regions

Could be, they don't say so directly.

quote:

According to David Comas, coordinator of the study and researcher at the Institute for Evolutionary Biology (CSIC-UPF), "some of the questions we wanted to answer were whether today's inhabitants are direct descendants of the populations with the oldest archaeological remains in the region, dating back fifty thousand years, or whether they are descendants of the Neolithic populations in the Middle East which introduced agriculture to the region around eight thousand years ago. We also wondered if there had been any genetic exchange between the North African populations and the neighbouring regions and if so, when these took place.


A native genetic component defines North Africans


To answer these questions, the researchers analyzed around 800,000 genetic markers, distributed throughout the entire genome in 125 North African individuals belonging to seven representative populations in the whole region, and the information obtained was compared with the information from the neighbouring populations.

The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component which defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers, shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of either the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, or descendants of the most recent Neolithic populations.


The ancestors of modern North Africans returned to Africa


The data shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations which already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region.

--David Comas

quote:

"however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood"

--Brenna Henn Published: January 12, 2012DOI: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1002397:

"Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations"

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

How did you conclude that?

"In this latter case, it was possible to delimit where this genetic exchange took place. It was a result of a recent migration, about 24-30 generations ago (750-900 years) at the height of the Great Berber Empires and the slave trade through the Sahara desert, which was established in this region during that period."


quote:
When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?
That's the riddle here. But it could be.
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sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

How did you conclude that?

I base it on the Tehenu [light skin 'Libyans'] that were first attested around 1000 BC in the reign of Ramesses III.

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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

How did you conclude that?

I base it on the Tehenu [light skin 'Libyans'] that were first attested around 1000 BC in the reign of Ramesses III.

I am not familiar with this, can you show what you mean.


Thanks in advance.

Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
sudanese
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quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

How did you conclude that?

I base it on the Tehenu [light skin 'Libyans'] that were first attested around 1000 BC in the reign of Ramesses III.

I am not familiar with this, can you show what you mean.


Thanks in advance.

The ancient Egyptians seem to have first encountered light skin Libyan tribes like the Meshwesh in the New Kingdom period. I made a mistake in one of my posts; the Tehenu were the dark skin Libyans that the Egyptians were aware of earlier than the New Kingdom period and the Tamahu were the light skin Libyans that came later on.

I'm not sure if this true, but this is apparently an image of Tehenu 'black' Libyans.

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And these are the lighter skin Meshwesh Libyans:

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http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/enemies.htm

http://www.oocities.org/zurdig/Other_Forts_Frame.htm

Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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