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Author Topic: Modern North Africans' recent origin is outside Africa
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
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From this thread:

Foreign people in Ancient Egypt
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008886

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

How did you conclude that?

I base it on the Tehenu [light skin 'Libyans'] that were first attested around 1000 BC in the reign of Ramesses III.

I am not familiar with this, can you show what you mean.


Thanks in advance.

The ancient Egyptians seem to have first encountered light skin Libyan tribes like the Meshwesh in the New Kingdom period. I made a mistake in one of my posts; the Tehenu were the dark skin Libyans that the Egyptians were aware of earlier than the New Kingdom period and the Tamahu were the light skin Libyans that came later on.

I'm not sure if this true, but this is apparently an image of Tehenu 'black' Libyans.

 -

And these are the lighter skin Meshwesh Libyans:

 -

 -

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/enemies.htm

http://www.oocities.org/zurdig/Other_Forts_Frame.htm

Does this depict Rames II, at the battle of Kadesh? If so then aren't those Hittites.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:


The general analysis (based on historical sources, epigraphy and archaeological evidence) focuses on transitions in town and country and economy from Roman to Vandal and to Byzantine rule and observing patterns and facets of continuity and change.

Background: The most recent Alu insertions reveal different series of characteristics such as stability that make them particularly suitable genetic markers for human biological studies.


Subjects and methods: Forty-seven Berbers from Sejnane and 33 from Takrouna were sampled. Alu insertion polymorphism was analysed using PCR with loci specific primers.


Results: A similar level of gene diversity was detected in Sejnane and Takrouna populations. PC results revealed genetic affinities between these two populations and some Eurasian populations ( Germany, Genova and Syria). In contrast, there is a differentiation between these two Berber communities and North African and Iberian populations.

Conclusion: The results of this study confirm the heterogeneity of Berbers in North Africa, which suggests their diverse origins. In the case of Sejnane and Takrouna populations, these results are in line with an ancient Euro Mediterranean background that has already been studied by archaeologists, particularly for the population of Sejnane.

--S. Frigi, H. Ennafaa, M. Ben Amor, L. Cherni and A. Ben Ammar-Elgaaied

Assessing human genetic diversity in Tunisian Berber populations by Alu insertion polymorphisms
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/03014460.2010.490241

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the lioness,
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Procession at The Festival of Min, the harvest God.
In this scene is a group of Egyptians.
Wearing two feathers on their heads they are sometimes mistaken for Philistines or Libyans (some who also wore two feathers).
Here, a canopy is carried by princes. The king is followed by courtiers and preceded by priests bearing censers and by soldiers.
Location: The North colonnade and part of the East colonnade,
Temple of Ramesses III at Medinet Habu, 18th Dynasty

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
 -

From this thread:

Foreign people in Ancient Egypt
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008886

^ A Biographical Dictionary of Ancient Egypt
By Dr Rosalie David, Anthony E. David, 1992
references, 1937, 1962

This book as well as Diop claims some of the ancient Libyans who the Egyptians encountered had white skin, red or blond hair and blue eyes but I question the primary sources for that.
In the Egyptiian art of them are depicted reddish brown skinned similar to some Egyptians and others appear lighter or sometimes yellowish.
How African the Libyan nation or Meshwesh was at that time is unclear -or the amount of etnic variation with Libyan tribes.
Also keep in mind some art is directly form off the walls others are modern illustrations supposedly accurately based on the wall paintings

Even if the Libyans were half or more Phoenician from Lebanon even that Phoenician-Lebanese element, while not primarily African, they tend to be light brown
not white skinned
or red/blond hair and blue eyes.

Lebanese soccer team>

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Ish Geber
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I once read that that "study" done on Phoenician-Lebanese element was faked for political purposes.


This is from one of you older posts.

 -


Libu Libyans, Book of Gates. Tomb of Rameses III

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by sudaniya:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sudaniya:
[qb] So light skin North Africans have been on the continent for at least 2000 years? When exactly did 'Eurasians' arrive to coastal North Africa? I've read about the light skin Tamahou which apparently first appeared in the New Kingdom period and were preceded by the dark skin Tehenu.

When they mention that North Africa's local component date back thirteen thousand years, is this in reference to older African genes with origins in North-East Africa that are already present in countries like Sudan?

How did you conclude that?

I base it on the Tehenu [light skin 'Libyans'] that were first attested around 1000 BC in the reign of Ramesses III.

I am not familiar with this, can you show what you mean.


Thanks in advance.

The ancient Egyptians seem to have first encountered light skin Libyan tribes like the Meshwesh in the New Kingdom period. I made a mistake in one of my posts; the Tehenu were the dark skin Libyans that the Egyptians were aware of earlier than the New Kingdom period and the Tamahu were the light skin Libyans that came later on.

I'm not sure if this true, but this is apparently an image of Tehenu 'black' Libyans.

 -

And these are the lighter skin Meshwesh Libyans:

 -

 -

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/enemies.htm

http://www.oocities.org/zurdig/Other_Forts_Frame.htm

These look so different?


 -


 -


Relief block with the heads of three Libyans

The sidelocks of the people on this relief block identify the men as Libyans. They need not be prisoners but could be members of the Egyptian army or envoys at a festival. As usual with sandstone relief pieces the block was part of a temple decoration at Karnak.

 -


Relief block with the heads of three Libyans
Period: New Kingdom, Amarna Period
Dynasty: Dynasty 18
Date: ca. 1353–1323 B.C.
Geography: From Egypt, Upper Egypt, Thebes, Karnak
Medium: Sandstone, paint
Credit Line: Gift of Ernst E. Kofler, 1965
Accession Number: 65.100.1


Timeline of Art History (2000–present)

Timelines Egypt, 2000–1000 B.C.


http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/100007165

Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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Had to repost it here,

quote:
Ruled by a succession of Egyptian-based dynasties in the later Middle Ages, Cyrenaica came under the nominal suzerainty of the Ottoman Empire after the 15th century; in the mid-19th century the region became the centre of the


Sanusiyah religious brotherhood and dynasty. As a result of the Italo Turkish war, Cyrenaica, with Tripolitania, was ceded to Italy in 1912, and by 1940 about 50,000 Italian peasant colonists were converting northern Cyrenaica into the semblance of an Italian province, cultivating cereals, vines, and fruit trees.


http://tourslibya.com/cyrenaica/


quote:
Cyrene (UNESCO)


Cyrene was the most important Greek city in North Africa, founded in the 7th century BC by a party of immigrants who had fled the drought-inflicted island of Thera in the Aegean Sea. Its early history was a volatile one and characterized by murder and conflict among the ruling families.

Under King Battus IV (515-470 BC) it enjoyed a period of relative calm and prosperity although his successor Arcesilaus IV was assassinated. From 322 BC Cyrenaica came under the control of the Greek general Ptolemy I and his dynasty.

In 96 BC the Romans took possession of Cyrenaica and it became a province of Rome eighteen years later. Thereafter it enjoyed a period of peace until a Jewish revolt in 115 AD caused widespread destruction.

Following reconstruction under the Emperor Hadrian Cyrene again entered a period of prosperity.

In 365 AD, during the Byzantine period an earthquake destroyed much of the city which at the time had not yet embraced Christianity. A grand rebuilding program took place although former places of pagan worship were desecrated including the great temple of Zeus.

 Built on a series of levels the spectacular ruins of Cyrene include the Sanctuary and Temple of Apollo, the Acropolis, the Agora, the Forum, the Stoa of Hermes and Heracles, the House of Jason Magnus, the Nine Muses and the Temple of Zeus.

http://tourslibya.com/sights/cyrene-2

quote:
Apollonia


Apollonia served as the port of Cyrene, 20 km to the southwest and it was founded by Greek colonists. Through out the years it became a significant commercial centre in the Mediterranean. The area consist of a beach cut by rugged rocks, inlands there are hills all giving Apollonia a very nice setting. The Theatre is sited in a particularly picturesque location by the sea. Other buildings include the Eastern, Central, Western Basilicas and the Byzantine Palace.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/apollonia


quote:
Alburdi


Alburdi is located on the eastern coast of Libya not far from the Egyptian border and one hour drive from Tobruk. The site attracts a number of tourists for its relation to World War Two and also for its unique mountainous landscape. A newly opened luxury hotel provides an ideal base to explore and enjoy this isolated and unknown site in Libya.

http://tourslibya.com/sights/alburdi


quote:
Qasr Libya


Qasr Libya is located about 50 miles to the west of Cyrene city. The name Qasr Libya means the “castle of Libya”. Some archaeologists referred to this location by the name of Qasr el-Lebia or Qaser Libia. Further suggested that it may have been related to the ancient village of Olbia. This settlement was the seat of a Bishopric during the Byzantine period in classical Libya. The city was attacked several times by various invaders but it was however restored to its glory by the Byzantine emperor Justinian in 539 AD. Qasr Libya is mainly known for its 6th century Byzantine church with a stunning mosaic floor panels widely viewed as some of the world’s finest examples. The theme is mainly mythical representation of the various spiritual beings of the pre-Roman era as well as those of Christian symbolism strongly indicating a time when both Paganism and Christianity were equally tolerated. The mosaic floor was discovered in 1957 by some labourers working.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/qasr-libya-libya-castle


quote:
Slontah Temple


Slonta temple is a small ancient Libyan temple dating to the period before the Greek occupation. Therefore one can safely associate the cave of Slontah with the indigenous Berber culture. Slontah Temple is located about 24 km south of al-Bayda high hidden in the Green Mountain’s groves. The Slontah structure incorporates a local architecture unique to the area consisting of a low semicircular entrance with cylindrical columns in the middle of the cave.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/slontah-temple


quote:


The Big Hole of Cyrene


Not much is known about this massive hole in the ground. There are those who say the hole was used as an ammunition dump during the two world wars. Some people believe the Big Hole of Cyrene is in effect a vertical cave represents what is known as Cave Geology and that the sides of the hole show that they were previously subjected to water or wind scouring. There are also similar holes exist around the world like the Golondrinas in Mexico (350 meters deep), and the Gaping Ghyll in England (50 meters deep). The place is located near Cyrene and is locally known as Haw Hajyre. The area is not fenced and it is possible the hole is full of skeletons of stray animals and the like. The depth of the hole is not known and throwing a stone in the hole return no echoes.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/the-big-hole-of-cyrene


quote:
Tokra


Tokra is a small village in Eastern Libya, located about 70 kilometres east of Benghazi city. Tokra was one of the five cities of the Greek Pentapolis. The village suitably located between the mountains and the sea is a wonderful Libyan village providing breathtaking scenery and landscape. According to archaeologists the village is a good example of how a modest Libyan (Berber) settlement would have looked like and how the majority of ancient locals would have lived. Tokra was an important export port during the Greek period which became a busy commercial centre after falling under Roman influence during the fist century BC. The city began to loose it’s status during the Byzantine period.


http://tourslibya.com/sights/tokra


quote:
Tolmeitha


The port of Tolmeitha is generally know as Ptolemais. The village is located in a beautiful area between the Green Mountain and the sea about 30 km east of Breqa. It was founded as port to serve Almerj(Brega) after it became a busy commercial centre during the sixth century BC with goods arriving from the nearby ports such as Alexandria port in Egypt as well as to export the main produce of the region such as silphium, honey, butter and grains.


Tolmeitha rose to fame so quickly and became the capital of Cyrenaica during the 4th and 5th centuries AD. Historical records show that the port was originally called “Berqa Port” which also indicates the existence of the site before the Greek invasions after which it became known as Ptolemais. Places of interest include the two gate towers of Tocra Gate, the theatre, the stadium, the Basilica, the Roman Villa of Columns and the museum of Tolmeita. This museum houses a number of statues, stones, and a small collection of mosaics. Also there are several marble tablets showing various records of the main historical events of the town as well as some price lists. Ptolemais also provides a unique experience to tourists namely the descent to a large complex of underground cisterns under the agora. The capacity of this system of cisterns was said to be 6 million litres of water, originally maintained via a 25 kilometre long aqueduct.

Ptolemais Museum houses a number of archaeological treasures and ruins that were found in the region such as statues, including those of the Libyan Medusa and Cleopatra, columns, tablets, burial and funerary objects and several mosaic floors, from the Punic, Greek, Roman and Byzantine periods. One of the most unique exhibits of the museum and of historical importance, is a price tablet showing prices of goods in the Roman empire dating to the 301 AD. The museum was originally a store house used during the Italian occupation in which a number of archaeological artifacts ended up for storage and most of which still are to this day piled up in its store rooms. The store house was turned into a museum in 1960. Some of the finds are actually still outside the museum with no protection from the elements whatsoever.

http://tourslibya.com/sights/tolmeitha
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:


mathilda37 | July 29, 2008 at 10:20 am | Reply

‘Berber’ covers a lot of ground, Uraeus. It includes the Tuareg and they are mostly black. The Kabyle and Northern Moroccans have very little sub Saharan ancestry in them.


^^ This is correct and why the Maghreb berbers are different from the Sahel berbers and why zarahan is wrong


I have also agued in the past that "North Africa" can have about 5 different defintions. Therfore it is better for reserachers to deal with the terms "Maghreb" and "Sahel" and "berber"


Nevertheless if commentary is made about "North Africa" it doen't matter which definition you choose as long as you indicate which countries you will be discussing.
The information will apply to the countries your research data is from so that if you call it North Africa or only a part of North Africa the information remains the same, according to the countries you have choosen to discuss


In other words if I choose 10 states in the U.S. and called that the United States somebody could argue I left out 40 others.
But the data would still be valid as per those 10 states, the name of the grouping is a separate issue

___________________________

Berber is a culture, they are historically nomads and include a wide range of ethnicties


For instance

Siwa

M81 1.1%
B2a1a 28.0
R1b1* 26.9

____________

Niger Tuareg

E1B1a 44.4%
R1b 33%
M81 11.1%

[Big Grin]
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
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