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Author Topic: When to use "black" and when not to...
xyyman
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I don’t discuss hypotheticals, What if scenarios. No one can win that battle. It will never end. I look at the data and tell you what it means. I have no idea who is who in Africa. Can’t tell the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu or Bantu from a Hausa. You may or may not be right. But I can tell you the Amarnas are related to the Southern Africans for some strange reason. Did the Southern African disperse to the south? Did the AEians migrate to the North? That still needs to be determined.


quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
BTW – Just so you know. Different world populations may carry the same STR repeats at ONE locus. But when you include a “second” STR locus the differentiation begins. That is why I said earlier in this thread that at minimum ONLY “TWO” STR are needed to give a” preliminary” geographic profile. But the more the merrier. Lol! JAMA released 8 STRs for the Amarnas. That is more than enough.

This. And this is why I stated that you have to look at the profile as a whole. One value may peak in a certain population but the combination of two, at a specific frequency not even being the peak frequency is what would differentiate continental groups. Perhaps proportion is more important in an analysis. Perhaps it's a combination of a lower African specific value in one STR and a higher African specific repeat in another that pulls or pushes the Ancient profile in whatever intra continental direction.

We are also making the mistake of assuming that these profiles were the standard ones of the region. I am assuming they are but the remains are of royals that have been inbreeding for a while.


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beyoku
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
As I posted earlier my concern is with
matching loci and alleles not DNAtribes.

I will say this, DNAtribes obviously missed
out honing in on Upper Egypt and Sudan
samples. Sudan samples offer much more
Nilo-Saharan than DNAtribes did. It is silly
to accept a search for modern occurrences
of Amarna STRs and exclude Upper Egypt
and Sudan.

I am examining autosomal STRs in profile
for Amarna haplotypes. A III had no extant
profile but Thuya's haplotype is found in
living Upper Egyptians and Sudanese.

I dont know if they "missed out". Their matching algorithm is proprietary and we dont know exactly how it produced the results it did OVER existing north East Africans.
Going back to the time when they dropped the data. Their database already contained:

Upper (Southern) Egypt (265)
Egyptian (140)
Egyptian (28)
Egyptian Berber (Siwa, Egypt) (98)
Egyptian Copt (Adaima, Egypt) (100)
El-Minia, Egypt (300)
Egyptian Muslim (Adaima, Egypt) (99)
Somalia (404)
Somalia (96)
Sudan (65)
Sudan (98)
Sudan (485)

Like I said, we know whats going on regarding individual STR values and how they match Horn and Nile Valley Populations but we dont know exactly why SSA trump these populations according to DNA TRIBES. Swenet mentions the Heterogeneity of Nile Valley populations and the pooled sample of Nile Valley moderns with Maghrebi to form "North Africa". That makes sense but that doesn't explain the preference for Sub Saharan non Horners over Horn Africans.

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KING
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Repeated Post

NO MATTER WHAT MIXTURE PEOPLE MIXED WITH, ALL OF THE MIXTURE MAKES BROWN.

BLACK COLOR, WHITE COLOR, RED COLOR, YELLOW COLOR, ORIGINAL COLORS, BROWN COLOR'S MIXTURE

Black Mixes With Red

Child Comes Out Red

THE CHILD RED OR BROWN

Child Comes out Black

THE CHILD BLACK OR BROWN

Meaning Yellow Mixes With White

Child Comes Out White

THE CHILD WHITE OR BROWN

Child Comes out Yellow

THE CHILD YELLOW OR BROWN

continued repost

Meaning Yellow Mixes With Red

Child Comes Out Yellow

THE CHILD YELLOW OR BROWN

Child Comes Out Red

THE CHILD RED OR BROWN


Black Mixes with White..

Child comes out White

THE CHILD WHITE OR BROWN

Child comes out Black

THE CHILD BLACK OR BROWN

Black mixes with Yellow..

Child comes out Yellow

THE CHILD YELLOW OR BROWN

Child comes out Black

THE CHILD BLACK OR BROWN

Black mixes with Red..

Child comes out Red

THE CHILD RED OR BROWN

Child Comes out Black

THE CHILD BLACK OR BROWN

etc for all Peoples Mixtures..

BROWN IS MIXTURE.

NO MATTER THE COLOR PEOPLES SKIN COLOR NOT DARK

ALL PEOPLE COME FROM BLACK PEOPLE

DARK SKIN ALL EUROPEANS

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
Finding which African population carries the matching Repeat of a specific STR found in AE Mummies a the highest frequency does not debunk DNA Tribes proprietary algorithm. It gives you something to talk about, a new way of taking the data and giving your own interpretation of what it means but it cannot debunk the commercial algorithm from DNA Tribes.

It is too simplistic to just look at a populations and try and break it down by peak frequency. These profiles are actual "PROFILES" so peak frequency may not be the determining factor of affinity as far a DNA TRIBES algorithm is concerned. To put things in perspective.....Lets assume the ancient DNA from the Lake Turkana remains has a heterogeneous Y-Chromosome profile of A3b, B2a, E1a, M2, M35 and E2. It would be incorrect to point to populations that Peak those respective lineages : Dinka, Nuer, Dogon, Bamileke, Somali, Alur respectively looking for some sort of parental genetic affinity. I would be equally incorrect to assume these 6 Ethnic groups individually contributed their Y-Chromosomes to the humans found at Lake Turkana in whatever proportion they are found.

When looking at Y-Chromosome STR profiles, it is the profile itself that you have to break down. You couldn't just go through each individual STR value to see where it peaks in a given population/haplogroup. One sequence of repeats may be more common in E1b1a, others more common in E1a, I2a or R1b. The totality of the STR profile will give you a better prediction of a REAL haplogroup.

I cannot sit back and say what is MORE correct. What i can say is their algorithm is proprietary. There is no way for us to know the details.

Thanks. It's just cringing to see people micro analyze individual alleles.

You can't micro analyze individual alleles. As you know (we've discussed this), there have been plenty studies that tested how AIM amount affect ancestry assignment. They all show that a ancestry assignments based on random sampling of a handful of SNPs processed by STRUCTURE look progressively different as you add more AIMs.

At least the alleles handpicked by DNAconsultant.com fit the cline of ancient Egyptian ancestry in Eurasia. And so, they're informative and self-consistent in that regard.

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Tukuler
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Examining STRs not SNPs
8 of the CODIS Core STRs
used precisely because
they point out ethnic and
geographic affinity.

Numerous articles report
efficacy of certain locus
values and allele values
as markers. No pioneering
on my part there.

And the below was posted
in evidence of allele
discrimination power

 -

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Ish Geber
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
I don’t discuss hypotheticals, What if scenarios. No one can win that battle. It will never end. I look at the data and tell you what it means. I have no idea who is who in Africa. Can’t tell the difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu or Bantu from a Hausa. You may or may not be right. But I can tell you the Amarnas are related to the Southern Africans for some strange reason. Did the Southern African disperse to the south? Did the AEians migrate to the North? That still needs to be determined.


quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
BTW – Just so you know. Different world populations may carry the same STR repeats at ONE locus. But when you include a “second” STR locus the differentiation begins. That is why I said earlier in this thread that at minimum ONLY “TWO” STR are needed to give a” preliminary” geographic profile. But the more the merrier. Lol! JAMA released 8 STRs for the Amarnas. That is more than enough.

This. And this is why I stated that you have to look at the profile as a whole. One value may peak in a certain population but the combination of two, at a specific frequency not even being the peak frequency is what would differentiate continental groups. Perhaps proportion is more important in an analysis. Perhaps it's a combination of a lower African specific value in one STR and a higher African specific repeat in another that pulls or pushes the Ancient profile in whatever intra continental direction.

We are also making the mistake of assuming that these profiles were the standard ones of the region. I am assuming they are but the remains are of royals that have been inbreeding for a while.


"Southern Africans for some strange reason. Did the Southern African disperse to the south? Did the AEians migrate to the North? That still needs to be determined."

Both happened.

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:


And the below was posted
in evidence of allele
discrimination power

 -

Huh? Your diagram does not show.
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Tukuler
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I see it

Press on missing image's place holder
Select view image
Return
Refresh

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Doug M
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I see it

Press on missing image's place holder
Select view image
Return
Refresh

http://1.1.1.1/bmi/snag.gy/vX5jv.jpg

Is not a valid URL.

You probably meant this:

http://snag.gy/vX5jv.jpg

 -

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Tukuler
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I can see it as I posted it
but thanks for the URL that
Works for everybody else.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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xyyman
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The more I look at this. It just hit me like a lightning bolt. The Amarna “exclusive” genetic materials is only found today in Central and Southern Africa. So Amarnas left very little genetic trace in “modern” Egyptians. Thoughts? Anyone? Hypotheticals?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Tukuler
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By now after repeating myself all know
my focus isn't DT. My intent's to check
Amarna nSTRs against pop dB's for
locus and individual allele matches.

Even if a sample matches all loci its
probability (a function of frequency)
could be lower than another sample's.

For its worth, Thuya haplotype is a
match for Upper Egypt. Looking at
S. Africa Bantu and the 4 loci they
share with Thuya and UE

* CSF1PO = 7 12
* D2S1338 = 19 26
* D16S539 = 11 13
* FGA = 24 26

SA Bantu's genotype probability is 7 times greater than Upper Egypt.
.


quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
As I posted earlier my concern is with
matching loci and alleles not DNAtribes.

I will say this, DNAtribes obviously missed
out honing in on Upper Egypt and Sudan
samples. Sudan samples offer much more
Nilo-Saharan than DNAtribes did. It is silly
to accept a search for modern occurrences
of Amarna STRs and exclude Upper Egypt
and Sudan.

I am examining autosomal STRs in profile
for Amarna haplotypes. A III had no extant
profile but Thuya's haplotype is found in
living Upper Egyptians and Sudanese.

I dont know if they "missed out". Their matching algorithm is proprietary and we dont know exactly how it produced the results it did OVER existing north East Africans.
Going back to the time when they dropped the data. Their database already contained:

Upper (Southern) Egypt (265)
Egyptian (140)
Egyptian (28)
Egyptian Berber (Siwa, Egypt) (98)
Egyptian Copt (Adaima, Egypt) (100)
El-Minia, Egypt (300)
Egyptian Muslim (Adaima, Egypt) (99)
Somalia (404)
Somalia (96)
Sudan (65)
Sudan (98)
Sudan (485)

Like I said, we know whats going on regarding individual STR values and how they match Horn and Nile Valley Populations but we dont know exactly why SSA trump these populations according to DNA TRIBES. Swenet mentions the Heterogeneity of Nile Valley populations and the pooled sample of Nile Valley moderns with Maghrebi to form "North Africa". That makes sense but that doesn't explain the preference for Sub Saharan non Horners over Horn Africans.


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Askia_The_Great
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LOVING the discussion that is going on. Learning a lot about how STR works.
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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
As I posted earlier my concern is with
matching loci and alleles not DNAtribes.

I will say this, DNAtribes obviously missed
out honing in on Upper Egypt and Sudan
samples. Sudan samples offer much more
Nilo-Saharan than DNAtribes did. It is silly
to accept a search for modern occurrences
of Amarna STRs and exclude Upper Egypt
and Sudan.

I am examining autosomal STRs in profile
for Amarna haplotypes. A III had no extant
profile but Thuya's haplotype is found in
living Upper Egyptians and Sudanese.

I dont know if they "missed out". Their matching algorithm is proprietary and we dont know exactly how it produced the results it did OVER existing north East Africans.
Going back to the time when they dropped the data. Their database already contained:

Upper (Southern) Egypt (265)
Egyptian (140)
Egyptian (28)
Egyptian Berber (Siwa, Egypt) (98)
Egyptian Copt (Adaima, Egypt) (100)
El-Minia, Egypt (300)
Egyptian Muslim (Adaima, Egypt) (99)
Somalia (404)
Somalia (96)
Sudan (65)
Sudan (98)
Sudan (485)

Like I said, we know whats going on regarding individual STR values and how they match Horn and Nile Valley Populations but we dont know exactly why SSA trump these populations according to DNA TRIBES. Swenet mentions the Heterogeneity of Nile Valley populations and the pooled sample of Nile Valley moderns with Maghrebi to form "North Africa". That makes sense but that doesn't explain the preference for Sub Saharan non Horners over Horn Africans.

See DNA Tribes reports on the Horn of Africa STR region. In some of its reports it's assigned ~40% Arabian ancestry. The combination of a low MLI ranking BUT a high TribeScore suggests to me that the Horn of Africa region is, in fact, scoring decently. In terms of MLI scores, it just can't score much better than what you see due to the displacement of a large amount of this region's alleles. Linguistically speaking, the Horn region has been separated from Egypt since the separation of Chris Ehret's Boreafrasan, while other DNA Tribes regions were still direct recipients of eastern Saharan ancestry, cattle, loanwords, etc. throughout the early and mid holocene.

A good case can be made that the Pharaohs have a relatively low MLI score (but high TribeScores) with DNA Tribes Horn of Africa region for the same reason that African Americans have low MLI scores (but high TribeScores) with African American and Afro-Caribbean samples.

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Punos_Rey
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Thanks a lot for all these posts guys, its filling in a lot of blanks though I personally still have quite a bit to learn so I'm glad for the information being put out by people much further along on this subject.

EDIT: Swenet can you clarify this last statement a little further?

"A good case can be made that the Pharaohs have a relatively low MLI score (but high TribeScores) with DNA Tribes Horn of Africa region for the same reason that African Americans have low MLI scores (but high TribeScores) with African American and Afro-Caribbean samples. "

I'm sure it's really obvious in hindsight I'm just trying to make sure I have the best understanding possible.

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BrandonP
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Wait a moment. Are these not the same eastern Saharans who contributed the so-called "Basal Eurasian" component in West Eurasian ancestry? West Eurasia does rank higher in the MLIs than other OOA regions, but still not as strong as sub-Sahara. So does that mean that extant SSAs are even more affected by Holocene Saharan admixture than West Eurasians, if that's the driver behind their high MLIs?

I mean, people on ES have noted the PN2 links throughout the whole of Africa since the beginning, but this implies that there's a huge hunk of Saharan, pre-OOA-affiliated ancestry in modern SSAs that I don't remember being reported in autosomal data before. And in a sense it would kinda vindicate "Afrocentric" claims that West Africans etc. have some kinship, however remote, to the Nile Valley.

Which is not to say I'm disputing the suggestion that Saharan ancestry in SSAs is a factor driving these scores. However, has anyone here considered that maybe OOAs, being descended from a bottleneck, have only a fraction of the alleles present in Saharans as well as other Africans? Maybe ancestral Saharans had a whole bunch of alleles widespread across the continent, but the bottleneck effect excised these out after OOAs proper diverged from them. This could make native Saharans look more SSA-like in MLI scores without refuting their contribution to OOA.

--------------------
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My art thread on ES

And my books thread

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Swenet
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@Punos_Rey

Good that the discussion is benefiting you and Blessedbyhorus.

See this image (the TribeScores are in parenthesis to the left, while the MLI scores are to the right of each bar):

http://www.dnatribes.com/assets/img/af-c2-2015-833x485.png

African Americans have the highest MLI scores with Sub-Saharan Africans, but the best TribeScores are with low MLI scoring Afro-Colombians (0.78), Afro-Caribbeans from the UK (0.77), Jamaicans (0.62) and from the Bahamas (0.62). African American individuals who take tests with DNA Tribes have primarily Sub-Saharan African ancestry and this ancestry is found with a higher probability in Sub-Saharan African samples than in African American samples.

Obviously, MLI scores don't tell you anything about where a STR profile is from specifically. Saying otherwise is plain delusional. How can MLI scores do this when they often list several high probability regions with completely different ancestry at the same time? All it does is say where the genetic material captured in that specific STR profile is most common.

There are many reasons why a STR profile can be more common in regions other than the actual origin of the tested individual. In the case of African Americans, their relatively low MLI scores with Africans in the diaspora is due to their heterogeneity (i.e. ~25-20% of their native alleles have been displaced by genetic contacts in the New World).

And notice how sensitive the MLI scores are. Only ~25-20% of non-African admixture in African Americans is already enough to distort the picture and rank mainland Africans higher than African Americans and Afro-Caribbeans.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Nodnarb:
Wait a moment. Are these not the same eastern Saharans who contributed the so-called "Basal Eurasian" component in West Eurasian ancestry? West Eurasia does rank higher in the MLIs than other OOA regions, but still not as strong as sub-Sahara. So does that mean that extant SSAs are even more affected by Holocene Saharan admixture than West Eurasians, if that's the driver behind their high MLIs?

I mean, people on ES have noted the PN2 links throughout the whole of Africa since the beginning, but this implies that there's a huge hunk of Saharan, pre-OOA-affiliated ancestry in modern SSAs that I don't remember being reported in autosomal data before. And in a sense it would kinda vindicate "Afrocentric" claims that West Africans etc. have some kinship, however remote, to the Nile Valley.

Which is not to say I'm disputing the suggestion that Saharan ancestry in SSAs is a factor driving these scores. However, has anyone here considered that maybe OOAs, being descended from a bottleneck, have only a fraction of the alleles present in Saharans as well as other Africans? Maybe ancestral Saharans had a whole bunch of alleles widespread across the continent, but the bottleneck effect excised these out after OOAs proper diverged from them. This could make native Saharans look more SSA-like in MLI scores without refuting their contribution to OOA.

Look at the Nile Valley haplogroup package that reached West Africa and other regions with the spread of the neolithic and prior to the neolithic. It's not the same package that reached Eurasia in the terminal pleistocene and again with Proto-Semitic speakers. The ~10kya West African A-M13 for instance, to me also suggests a Nilo-Saharan component in that eastern Saharan mix that spread to West Africa throughout the holocene.

It could be that SSA and Eurasia are affected by different kinds of so-called "Basal Eurasian". My interpretation is that the primary type that is found in West Asians and some modern Egyptian samples is different than the kind that primarily found in Egyptian Copts in Sudan, Beja, Somalis, which is different than the kind that is primarily found in Maghrebis, etc.

Hodgson et al misinterpret their data in my view (seeing all of it as a sign of Eurasian admixture in Africa), and the below isn't directly comparable to what I'm saying, but it still shows that the Maghrebi, Ethio-Somali and Arabian components have a similar ancestry from the same source that is lowering their split times to only about ~23kya. Some of SSA samples also have ancestry from this source and the kind inner Africa has seems best matched so far by the Ethio-Somali kind (you can see it in the significantly lower Fst values; Niger-Congo is just behind Nilo-Saharan and Ethiopic) as opposed to the Eurasian kind. As you know, it's also present in the European samples due to the neolithic. It's present in all these samples, but it's not really visible as such in the K graphics.

quote:
The most recent divergence date estimates for the Ethio-Somali ancestral population are with the Maghrebi and Arabian ancestral populations at 23 and 25 ka.
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393
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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The Amarna “exclusive” genetic materials is only found today in Central and Southern Africa.

stop making false statements
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xyyman
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"primarily"....better?

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:
Originally posted by lioness:
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
most if not all pharaohs produce the same results.

That seems substantially different than the other one at 7.5%
The same as in: primary affinity to North Africans in the 5 pop analysis and primary affinity to SSAs in the 3 pop analysis. Not that they can't vary in proportion of 'Eusasian' affinities.

Aside from the fact that 'Eurasian' could still mean African and that the same individual's results may differ depending on which set of a given amount of STRs you use, at this level of resolution you can't really take things overly literal and deduce which royal is more African. So when I said "the same", I was talking about the general pattern of seemingly contradictory affinities (SSA in 3 pop analysis vs North Africa in 5 pop analysis) that all the royals tend to have.

Explaining what I said earlier, re: "low resolution" and how that factors into the fact that you can't take popaffiliator predictions overly literal in terms of precise percentages or anything of that nature:

"The results indicate that 10,000 SNPs selected at random from an individual can be used to infer genome ancestry with negligible error when considering the three HapMap populations CEU, CHB, and YRI. Even so, panels of 500 rSNPs perform reasonably well in this population scenario. Below this number, errors in the inference of ancestry increase noticeably as the number of rSNPs is reduced."

"As expected, the number of rSNPs needed to infer ancestry strongly depends on the evolutionary proximity of the populations under study. For instance, we made simulations to test the number of rSNPs needed to differentiate ancestry in two different East Asian populations, Chinese and Japanese. Here the number of rSNPs needed to differentiate these populations increases significantly more than one order of magnitude; therefore, the need for searching panels of highly discriminating AIMs is more justified."

"The distinction between individual ancestries within Asian populations (or other closely related groups) would require genome-wide screenings [4] or very large panels of AIMs (probably containing thousands of SNPs)."

"During the last few years, several panels of SNPs have been designed in order to estimate ancestry using only a few markers (AIM panels). Analyses were carried out in the present study in order to assess the performance of these panels when applied to three main HapMap continental populations, CEU, CHB, and YRI. The results indicate that inference of ancestry can be seriously compromised when using panels containing small numbers of AIMs."

"For instance, out of the panels tested in the present study, those showing the best performance are ILU and GAL, that is, those that have more AIMs, while the ones including only a few dozen AIMs show higher errors and variability (Additional file 4)."
http://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-15-543

There are only 16 markers for each Amarna royal (2 x 8 STR locus alleles), which is far below the amount of the above recommended AIMs for making specific ancestry inferences about which Amarna family member gets ancestry from which population in Africa. I demonstrated that I wasn't "spinning" when I said that the alleles occur more in select northeast African samples than elsewhere and that the pooling of Egyptian and Maghrebi samples into regions is one of the factors that make a literal interpretation of DNA Tribes wrong. I demonstrated that the alleles indeed occur more in select groups in the Nile Valley region, even though the region is hybridized today and other DNA Tribes regions in Sub-Saharan Africa have an unfair advantage due to little to no displacement of their native ancestry.

Now Xyyman is moving the goalpost, talking about Khoisan affinities because of Amenhotep's CSF1PO=6. He's saying this right after he said individual alleles produce inconsistent results. What changed? I challenged him to prove me wrong with the downloadable genotype sets. That's what changed. Flip flopper.

[Roll Eyes]

Going beyond what DNA tribes did, i.e. calculating where the allele mix occurs more often, or popaffiliator's tried and tested machine learning-based predications, is purely wild unsubstantiated speculation. The original goalpost was where the pharaonic allele mix occurs more often. Hefty allegations were made that I was "spinning". Now it's about individual isolated "Khoisan alleles" in Amenhotep? SMH.

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Swenet
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Still waiting for the forum's loudest, yet sneakiest hit and run poster to respond:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
 -

Gramps. Tell the truth. Just for once.

Let's see if you can bring yourself to let the truth flow from your lips. I want to see you admit it.

Who do the do above Great Lakes Bantu speaking groups (e.g. Nairobi, Hutu, Kikiyu) cluster with in their mtDNA profile? Where did they get their L3f, L3a, L3c, L3h, L4, L5, L0 etc. contributions from? And then explain to me how such contributions don't ultimately lead back to Nile Valley and other regions you try to write off as having low MLI scores.

So lame with all that running and coming back years later talking about "you're spinning".
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xyyman
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Bzzzzz! bzzzzz! bzzzz! This has been resolved


quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Still waiting for the forum's loudest, yet sneakiest hit and run poster to respond:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
 -

Gramps. Tell the truth. Just for once.

Let's see if you can bring yourself to let the truth flow from your lips. I want to see you admit it.

Who do the do above Great Lakes Bantu speaking groups (e.g. Nairobi, Hutu, Kikiyu) cluster with in their mtDNA profile? Where did they get their L3f, L3a, L3c, L3h, L4, L5, L0 etc. contributions from? And then explain to me how such contributions don't ultimately lead back to Nile Valley and other regions you try to write off as having low MLI scores.

So lame with all that running and coming back years later talking about "you're spinning".

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the lioness,
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 -
^^ arguing with xyyman

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xyyman
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Speaking about haplogroups. You do know that no haplogroups were disclosed for the Amarnas? In addition the only hg disclosed for the AEians were for Ramesid III and man E. Take a guess what that hsplogroup was? Druuuuuuum roll....!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
Still waiting for the forum's loudest, yet sneakiest hit and run poster to respond:

quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
 -

Gramps. Tell the truth. Just for once.

Let's see if you can bring yourself to let the truth flow from your lips. I want to see you admit it.

Who do the do above Great Lakes Bantu speaking groups (e.g. Nairobi, Hutu, Kikiyu) cluster with in their mtDNA profile? Where did they get their L3f, L3a, L3c, L3h, L4, L5, L0 etc. contributions from? And then explain to me how such contributions don't ultimately lead back to Nile Valley and other regions you try to write off as having low MLI scores.

So lame with all that running and coming back years later talking about "you're spinning".

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
http://www.fontsaddict.com/images/icons/png/911.png
^^ arguing with xyyman

This is why Xyyman is running:

 -

http://snag.gy/H8oE5.jpg

DNA Tribes' Great Lakes region contains samples that are broadly similar to the samples in DNA Tribes' combined Sudan-Horn region. The exceptions are the Bantu speakers, but even they have substantial admixture from groups who are in DNA Tribes' Sudan-Horn region. In fact, many of the Great Lakes groups are migrants from the Sudan-Horn region.

There is very little difference between DNA Tribes' Great Lakes and Sudan-Horn regions other than the substantial recent Eurasian admixture in the latter region and the Bantu speakers with regional contributions in the former region. All that Sudan-Horn ancestry in the Great Lakes region and it still has the best MLI scores with most royals. Yet he tries to peddle the bs that the Sudan-Horn region's lower MLI ranking should be interpreted literally.

That's why he keeps running from the inevitable end conclusion that he has no point. In about a year he'll try to window dress what happened and tell me I'm "spinning".

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xyyman
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[Roll Eyes] ^

To the newbies. Think of the human genome as an I-95 highway from New York to Florida. Philadelphia is a city along the way. In some populations Philadelphia( STR/CSFP1O) is repeated 6 times. ie there are 6 Philadelphias connected together. In other nearby populations it is repeated 7times but in very distant populations it may be repeated 15times. That is how the process works. Also keep in mind we have primarily TWO sets of the same genes(excluding sex related genes) because one from mommy and one from daddy. That is where the 6 vs 9 in Sages table comes in. AIII and San carry 6 repeats in one of parental set. They are the only TWO in the table which means they are extremely close genetically. At the other regions it is 9 repeats which is NOT unique and relatively common in African. Not such strong connection between AIII and Somalians and other Africans. That is how the process works.
Two sets of I-95. One from mommy and one from daddy. Think High school Biology. Homo and Hetero two of the same or two different.

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Tukuler
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Its not 6 vs 9

Its 6 AND 9

Stop effin up the newbies

Newbies please consult a glossary


Meanwhile here again for the 4th time
are Amenhotep's loci and alleles of
particular significance

= - =

D2S1338 = 16 27; Egypt Sudan
D18S51 = 16 22; Egypt Sudan Somali
FGA = 23 31.2; Somali
loci are only found today as where named.

CSFP1O = 6; San
D7S820 = 6; Biaka
FGA = 31.2; Kenya Bantu
alleles are exclusive in Africa to only the above today.

D16S539 = 8 13 locus and
D2S1338 = 16
D13S317 = 10
D18S51 = 16
FGA = 23 alleles are not very specific markers.

D21S11 = 34 interestingly enough appears
only in Biaka, San, Mbuti, and NE Africa.

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Swenet
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
[Roll Eyes] ^

To the newbies. Think of the human genome as an I-95 highway from New York to Florida. Philadelphia is a city along the way. In some populations Philadelphia( STR/CSFP1O) is repeated 6 times. ie there are 6 Philadelphias connected together. In other nearby populations it is repeated 7times but in very distant populations it may be repeated 15times. That is how the process works. Also keep in mind we have primarily TWO sets of the same genes(excluding sex related genes) because one from mommy and one from daddy. That is where the 6 vs 9 in Sages table comes in. AIII and San carry 6 repeats in one of parental set. They are the only TWO in the table which means they are extremely close genetically. At the other regions it is 9 repeats which is NOT unique and relatively common in African. Not such strong connection between AIII and Somalians and other Africans. That is how the process works.
Two sets of I-95. One from mommy and one from daddy. Think High school Biology. Homo and Hetero two of the same or two different.

This is an excerpt of of the results the Euronuts got when they tried to invalidate DNA Tribes using your nonsense approach:

quote:
TUTANKHAMUN (KV62)

Locus: D13S317

*Allele: 10 (1st parent)

1. Yupik - South-Western Alaska, United States (42.5%)
2. Madia-Gond - Maharashtra, India (28%)
3. Inupiat - Northern Alaska, United States (26.61%)
4. Athabaskan - Alaska, United States (22.77%)
5. Ximeng - Inner Mongolia (20.5%)

Population affinity: Inuit, South Asian, Mongolian

Allele: 12 (2nd parent)

1. Guinean - Guinea-Bissau (48%)
2. Arab - Zriba, Tunisia (47.8%)
3. Afro-Caribbean - United Kingdom (45.5%)
4. African American - Jamaica (45.49%)
5. Berber - Ghardaia, Algeria (44.3%)

Population affinity: West African, Northwest African

Locus: D7S820

Allele: 10 (1st parent)

1. Hutu - Nyarurema, Rwanda (44%)
2. Tutsi - Central Rwanda (43.103%)
3. Arab - Zriba, Tunisia (42.2%)
4. Argentine - Salta, Argentina (41.7%)
5. Mozambican - Maputo, Mozambique (39.1%)

Population affinity: Sub-Saharan African, Northwest African, Amerindian

Allele: 15 (2nd parent)

1. Buddhist - Ladakh, India (2.8%)
2. Katkari - Maharashtra, India (1.6%)
3. Berber - Southern Morocco (1%)
4. Northern Arab - Dubai Emirate (0.5%)
5. Chinese - Eastern China (0.5%)

Population affinity: Indian, Berber, Chinese

Like I said, YOU CAN'T microanalyse these alleles individually and construct elaborate admixture histories from them. SMH.
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xyyman
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English major...?

Let me rephrase.

One = 6(mommy or daddy)

One = 9(mommy or daddy)


Happy!!??


quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Its not 6 vs 9

Its 6 AND 9

Stop effin up the newbies

Newbies please consult a glossary


Meanwhile here again for the 4th time
are Amenhotep's loci and alleles of
particular significance

= - =

D2S1338 = 16 27; Egypt Sudan
D18S51 = 16 22; Egypt Sudan Somali
FGA = 23 31.2; Somali
loci are only found today as where named.

CSFP1O = 6; San
D7S820 = 6; Biaka
FGA = 31.2; Kenya Bantu
alleles are exclusive in Africa to only the above today.

D16S539 = 8 13 locus and
D2S1338 = 16
D13S317 = 10
D18S51 = 16
FGA = 23 alleles are not very specific markers.

D21S11 = 34 interestingly enough appears
only in Biaka, San, Mbuti, and NE Africa.


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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Its not 6 vs 9

Its 6 AND 9

Stop effin up the newbies

Newbies please consult a glossary


Meanwhile here again for the 4th time
are Amenhotep's loci and alleles of
particular significance

= - =

D2S1338 = 16 27; Egypt Sudan
D18S51 = 16 22; Egypt Sudan Somali
FGA = 23 31.2; Somali
loci are only found today as where named.

CSFP1O = 6; San
D7S820 = 6; Biaka
FGA = 31.2; Kenya Bantu
alleles are exclusive in Africa to only the above today.

D16S539 = 8 13 locus and
D2S1338 = 16
D13S317 = 10
D18S51 = 16
FGA = 23 alleles are not very specific markers.

D21S11 = 34 interestingly enough appears
only in Biaka, San, Mbuti, and NE Africa.

.
.


.
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

D16S539 = 8 13 locus and
D2S1338 = 16
D13S317 = 10
D18S51 = 16


^where are these alleles found?
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Tukuler
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Whaddaya mean?

Their power of discrimination is negligible
as ethnic or 'pinpoint' geographic markers
for the target STR profile (Amenhotep III's
8 STR MiniFiler haplotype).

The fewer occurrences of a locus pair
(genotype) or an allele the more it will
discriminate firstly a subcontinental
region or possibly a major language
family and secondly ethnicity.

AFAIK a locus must have a pair of
values, different or the same, to tell
how probable the sample is to show
up in its population.

The product of a profile's genotype
probabilities limit the number of
possible matches as low as one
in a billion.

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Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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Tukuler
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quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

Amenhotep's loci and alleles of
particular significance

= - =

D2S1338 = 16 27; Egypt Sudan
D18S51 = 16 22; Egypt Sudan Somali
FGA = 23 31.2; Somali
loci are only found today as where named.

CSFP1O = 6; San
D7S820 = 6; Biaka
FGA = 31.2; Kenya Bantu
alleles are exclusive in Africa to only the above today.

D16S539 = 8 13 locus and
D2S1338 = 16
D13S317 = 10
D18S51 = 16
FGA = 23 alleles are not very specific markers.

D21S11 = 34 interestingly enough appears
only in Biaka, San, Mbuti, and NE Africa.

.
.


.
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:

D16S539 = 8 13 locus and
D2S1338 = 16
D13S317 = 10
D18S51 = 16


^where are these alleles found?
.

OK will assume you mean their specificity.
Back with that in a few

D16S539 = 8 13
nonspecific but highest in Africa

D2S1338 = 16
nonspecific but highest in Israel nonexistant in Oceania

D13S317 = 10
nonspecific but highest in E Asia Asia

D18S51 = 16
nonspecific but highest in Central-South Asia


per popSTR's database for metapopulations
Africa
Israel
Europe
Central-South Asia
Far East Asia
Central Caribbean South America
Oceania

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zarahan aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
The more I look at this. It just hit me like a lightning bolt. The Amarna “exclusive” genetic materials is only found today in Central and Southern Africa. So Amarnas left very little genetic trace in “modern” Egyptians. Thoughts? Anyone? Hypotheticals?

Well you gotta watch that word "exclusive" - DNA tribes qualifies it
per below. But if you mean certain exclusive genetic elements
yes they might primarily be found in Central Africa.

Anywho, just to make it clear to the new volk. Contrary to
various, bogus strawman constructs floating around to "refute,"
the data do not mean that the Armana people "came from
Central Africa"- but rather there are ancestral links
with other African populations from that region
and of course further south of Egypt's border. They
could have arrived a variety of ways- marriage, concubinage,
a deep-rooted remnant of an ancient sub-group finally
manifesting itself in the Armana period royals, etc. etc. Whatever
the vehicle, the bottom line of said links remains.

The lack of linkage with modern Arabized Egyptians might
also reflect sampling. But then again, other data suggest
what we have said here on ES for some time- modern Egyptians,
contrary to sweeping claims in some quarters, are not identical
to the ancients and in some cases, depending on study,
do not show strong links with the ancients. This does not mean
no links existed-far from it- but assorted claims of super continuity,
often meant to insinuate "darker" or "African looking" Egyptians
as somehow "foreign," fail repeatedly.

New reader Recap Section 2:
 -


But anyway here's an interesting item on Armana and those "southern" links:
One Dutch author, defends the hypothesis that the "expressionism"
of the Amarna art cannot have been derived from the Minoan art, but
was due to influence of Negro Africa.
Jelgersma, H.C. "Een hypothese over Echnaton en de negerkunst,"
Phoenix, Leiden 19 (1973) 231-240 - Cited in:
ANNUAL EGYPTOLOGICAL BIBLIOGRAPHY 1977


Do you, Tukler or any have any thing on this positied link of the Armana
art innovations or changes with "Negro" Africa?

 -

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alTakruri
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Here're my preliminary on unique (only one pop) or
semi-specific (two pops only) MinFiler 8 STR locus
alleles. The semi specifics were to show "links".

You can see, where exclusive, these markers are useful African geo-lingual-ethnic identifiers.

 -

I was thinking language groupings.

Shorties speak non-Shorty languages but are easily distinguishable.
Sudan data is a language pool.

Note Bantu can be identified separate from other Niger-Congo
due possibly to west vs 'south-east' geography or ethnicity.

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Tukuler
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Amarna art could be said to share
an element of abstract exaggeration
curve flow and nonlinearity similar to
art southwest to south of Egypt.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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the lioness,
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quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Amarna art could be said to share
an element of abstract exaggeration
curve flow and nonlinearity similar to
art southwest to south of Egypt.

what Nubian art? Ugandan?
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Tukuler
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, [IMG] http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_aprt_1.jpg [/IMG]
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Doug M
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Congo is famously known for practices including head binding which is the reason for the Europeans calling out the connection to Amarna art.

The DNA also tells the tale. There cannot be a coincidence. Ancient KMT is basically the ancient conduit and collection point for many very ancient streams of African collected cultural artifacts that developed over thousands of years. Breaking down all the links to various African cultures would take years. But these links are to African cultures from before Colonial destruction as the modern condition of Africa is but a mere shadow of its former self. We are talking about the pinnacle of a time where for thousands of years the innovation and advancement flowed out of Africa, not the other way around.

And the sad part is that Europeans have the biggest collection of video and photo evidence along with artifacts from these previous eras. Heck I remember an old National Geographic video where they showed African kings wearing loin cloths being carried around in palanquins, which are still found in parts of West Africa.

Late 1800s Congo expedition photos:

Young boy with head binding on a low chair (common in AE imagery) with musical instruments.
 -

Young man with large vase, looking almost identical to various old Kingdom images
 -

Tomb of Kagemni, old kingdom:
 -
http://www.osirisnet.net/popupImage.php?img=/mastabas/kagemni/photo/kagemni_tb_1174.jpg&sw=1920&sh=1200&wo=22&so=161
http://www.osirisnet.net/mastabas/kagemni/e_kagemni_03.htm

Boy holding a symbol of royal authority, with various attachments at the bottom. Very similar to various images from Egypt including Seshat, Osiris and Ptah
 -
Osiris from tomb of Tutmosis IV
 -
http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/thoutmosis4/e_thoutmosis4_01.htm

Congo images from the Congo expedition web site.

Search for "king":
http://diglib1.amnh.org/cgi-bin/database/index.cgi

Mangbetu (Congo) head elongation: (Mangbetu Girl getting a weave)
 -

Amarna princess:
 -
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Amarna_princesses


Mangbetu king:
 -
http://siris-archives.si.edu/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=1454I930UD275.9568&profile=allimg&uri=full=3100039~!119660~!222&ri=1&aspect=subtab164&menu=search&source=~!siarchives&ipp=20&sp p=20&staffonly=&term=Mangbetu&index=.SI&uindex=&aspect=subtab164&menu=search&ri=1


Discussed previously on a very old thread.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005867

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the lioness,
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http://bibini.ghanaweb.com/cultural/incredible-elongated-head-culture-mangbetu/


The incredible elongated head culture of the Mangbetus


Because of this art, the Mangbetus had a distinctive look and this was partly due to their elongated heads. This was done at birth by tightly wrapping the heads of babies with cloth in order to give their heads the streamlined look. The skulls of their babies were pressed and wrapped between pieces of giraffe hide or wood. As the head grows, the bands are replaced until an elongated head is produced. Deformation usually begins just a month after birth for the next couple of years until the desired shape has been reached or the child rejects the apparatus.As per their culture, it was believed that the process increased the brain cavity and therefore the intelligence of the child.
This deformation usually didn’t affect the brain. As long as intracranial pressure remains the same as with a normal person, the brain should was able to adapt and grow into the new shape of the skull, resulting in no damage beyond cosmetic changes. The brain is a developmentally plastic organ and grows (expands) in the shape it’s given.

 -


Now, the Lipombo’, the custom of skull elongation, was a status symbol among the Mangbetu ruling class at the beginning of the century. It was later emulated by neighboring groups but later it became a common ideal of beauty among the peoples of the northeastern Congo. According to schildkrout and Keim, this tradition survived until the middle of this century, when it was outlawed by the Belgian government.


 -


 -

quote:

Hesiod, Catalogues of Women Fragment 44 (from Strabo, Geography 1. 13) (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek Epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"No one would accuse Hesiod of ignorance though he speaks of the Hemikunes (Half-Dog people) and the Makrokephaloi (Macrocephali) (Great-Headed people) and the Pygmaioi (Pygmies)."



quote:


Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 3. 45-47 (trans. Conybeare) (Greek biographer C1st to C2nd A.D.) :

"[The C1st A.D. prophet Apollonios of Tyana asked the Indian sage Iarkhos] about the Men who live Underground (anthropoi hypogen) and the Pygmaioi (Pygmies) also and the Skiapodes (Sciapods) (Shadow-foots); and larkhas answered his questions thus: ‘. . . As to men that are Skiapodes (Shadow-foots) or Makrokephaloi (Macrocephali) (Long-heads), and as to the other poetical fancies which the treatise of Skylax recounts about them, he said that they didn't live anywhere on the earth, and least of all in India.’"


quote:


On Airs, Waters, and Places

By Hippocrates

Written 400 B.C.E

Translated by Francis Adams

Table of Contents

Part 14

I will pass over the smaller differences among the nations, but will now treat of such as are great either from nature, or custom; and, first, concerning the Macrocephali. There is no other race of men which have heads in the least resembling theirs. At first, usage was the principal cause of the length of their head, but now nature cooperates with usage. They think those the most noble who have the longest heads. It is thus with regard to the usage: immediately after the child is born, and while its head is still tender, they fashion it with their hands, and constrain it to assume a lengthened shape by applying bandages and other suitable contrivances whereby the spherical form of the head is destroyed, and it is made to increase in length. Thus, at first, usage operated, so that this constitution was the result of force: but, in the course of time, it was formed naturally; so that usage had nothing to do with it; for the semen comes from all parts of the body, sound from the sound parts, and unhealthy from the unhealthy parts. If, then, children with bald heads are born to parents with bald heads; and children with blue eves to parents who have blue eyes; and if the children of parents having distorted eyes squint also for the most part; and if the same may be said of other forms of the body, what is to prevent it from happening that a child with a long head should be produced by a parent having a long head? But now these things do not happen as they did formerly, for the custom no longer prevails owing to their intercourse with other men. Thus it appears to me to be with regard to them.


Artificial cranial deformation

Intentional cranial deformation predates written history; it was practised commonly in a number of cultures that are widely separated geographically and chronologically, and still occurs today in a few places, including Vanuatu.

The earliest suggested examples were once thought to include the Proto-Neolithic Homo sapiens component (ninth millennium BC) from Shanidar Cave in Iraq,[1][2][3] and also among Neolithic peoples in Southwest Asia.[1][4] The view that these were artificially deformed, thus representing the oldest example of such practices (by tens of thousands of years) has since been argued incorrect by Chech, Grove, Thorne, and Trinkaus, based on new cranial reconstructions in 1999, where the team concluded "we no longer consider that artificial cranial deformation can be inferred for the specimen"


 -
Pre-Inca Paracas skull, 10th Century BCE


 -
Ukraine skull, 3rd century BCE

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xyyman
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Not sure I follow what you did here. I assume the numbers represent exclusivity shared between ALL the Amarnas and these African ethnic groups? If that is the case. I see Somalia(AfraS?). Surprisingly there is such a strong Pygmy and San connection at these STRs. The definitely Sudan has closest matching sequences for exclusivity.


quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Here're my preliminary on unique (only one pop) or
semi-specific (two pops only) MinFiler 8 STR locus
alleles. The semi specifics were to show "links".

You can see, where exclusive, these markers are useful African geo-lingual-ethnic identifiers.

 -

I was thinking language groupings.

Shorties speak non-Shorty languages but are easily distinguishable.
Sudan data is a language pool.

Note Bantu can be identified separate from other Niger-Congo
due possibly to west vs 'south-east' geography or ethnicity.


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Tukuler
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Using popSTR I looked up exclusive alleles
in Africa more or less by language speakers.
Amarnas have nothing to do with it at all but
of course you can compare the data with them.


Shorties use neighboring peoples speech.
Whether or not any elements of theirown
ooriginal language remain or what extent
they share biological origins I consider
them a set, Mbuti and Biaka live in
separate regions. Exclusive African alleles
* D7S820 = 6 or 7.3 or 8.1
* D21S11 = 25.3 or 26 or 30.3
* FGA = 33.3


BaNtu speakers here are Kenyans and
South Africans. Bantu is the major sub
family of Niger-Congo Kordofanian. So
I allowed D7S820 = 14 to show that link.


These San are Namibians with
* CSF1PO = 6
* D7S820 = 10.3
* D13S317 = 23
* D18S51 = 23
* D21S11 = 36.1
alleles exclusive to them in Africa.


Niger-Congo Kordofanian reps are
Senegalese Mandenka and Nigerian
Yoruba.. The former are savannah
folk. The latter forest. I allowed
D13S317 = 11 to show western
Sahel link with SSahara 'Afro-
Asian' speakers. FGA = 30 is
Ni-Co's Horn link. Exclusives
* D7S820 = 11.3
* D13S317 = 13.2
* D18S51 = 13.2
* D21S11 = 33 or 34.1


AFRoASian, which I think a misnomer, have
Mzab and Somali repping for iMazighen and
Cushitics. Too many exclusives to list, see
chart.


Not in popSTR, but a 'control' of sorts,
Sudan is a nation. Taking away what it
shares with others leaves Nilo-Saharan(?).
* D2S1338 = 15 or 27 or 28
* D13S317 = 15
* D18S51 = 9 or 12.2


Even popSTR can show some of these
markers outside the continent. My method
was for African reality. CCSF1PO = 6 shows
up in Sweden at like 2 10ths of a percent but
it's a San African exclusive marker at 16.7%.


.

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Tukuler
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Amenbotep III and Thuya are the only
Amarnas I've checked against Upper
Egypt and Sudan.

Upper Egypt, Sudan, and Somali share
3 loci genotypes and an additional 4
alleles -- 5 in the case of Somali -- with
A III. Their claim is staked and Somali
are the winner among today's people
for affinity to the father of the founder
of 'Amarna'.

Upper Egypt and Sudan completely
match Thuya's STR profile/haplotype.
No nneed look any further per forensics.
The maternal grandmother of Amarna's
founder, her STR profile/haplotype is
found intact in living Upper Egyptians
and Sudanese. The precision is down
to n * 10 to the negative 8th power or
one in a hundred million.

Egypt's population is 83 million.
Sudan's is 31 million .

Multi-locus probability can be figured to
find how many Egyptians and Sudanese
are statistically w walking around with
Thuya's haplotype. A haplotype with
an at least 3300 year pinpoint local
continuity.


For me, the implication is Thuya's haplotype
though royal was found also elsewhere in
Ancient Egypt as native peoples profiles.

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Tukuler
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Oops, left out the baNtu markers .

- = -

BaNtu speakers here are Kenyans and
South Africans. Bantu is the major sub
family of Niger-Congo Kordofanian. So
I allowed D7S820 = 14 to show that link.
*D13S317 = 7
* FGA = 19 or 31.2
are their exclusive alleles considering
Africa.


.

--------------------
I'm just another point of view. What's yours? Unpublished work © 2004 - 2023 YYT al~Takruri
Authentic Africana over race-serving ethnocentricisms, Afro, Euro, or whatever.

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@Xyyman

You seem to change your mind, but for all the wrong reasons. You pretend to not understand a thing I say but then you change your view based on what exactly? I'm not seeing what you reading into it.

Here we have a very low resolution K-based analysis very roughly and imperfectly depicting what seems to be stereotypical African (red), non-stereotypical African (yellow) and 'pseudo Eurasian'-admixed Eurasian proper (green) at K=3. 8/15 of the STR loci used to compute this overlap with the STR loci used to genotype the Amarna family.

 -

Two observations:

1) Look at all the Eurasian green in the Egyptian sample (which is the same Omran et al Upper Egyptian sample that had the most hits with the Amarna sample in my analysis). Despite the displacement of large amounts of their own RED and YELLOW, they STILL have a more than decent showing of Amarna alleles. But you already know that. You just want to pretend to not understand that your interpretation of DNA Tribes is simply based on your confirmation bias and blatant disregard for the Eurasian ancestry in DNA Tribes' North Africa and Sudan + Horn composite regions.

2) This study uses 15 STR loci which overlap with the STR loci that were used to genotype the Amarna family. And even though 15 is almost twice the amount of the meagre 8 STR loci data we have of the Amarna family, the results are still low res and the relative proportions of red vs yellow vs green captured in each individual are STILL just rough approximations. Which is why all the individuals look more heterogeneous in their relative proportions of red, yellow and green than they'd be if they had their whole genomes sequenced and why the PCA in this study [i.e. Babiker 2011] can't really capture much beyond Africanity and nationality (i.e. the various highly differentiated ethno-linguistic sets of Sudanese samples were only barely distinguishable).

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Currently involved in a 10+ page long debate on Egypt's place in Africa that goes to the question of this very thread:

http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/101068-why-do-people-always-assume-egypt-homogenous.html

Unbelievable to me how quickly the racism comes out on even supposedly objective forums, and the denial of African variation is mindboggling

I am sick and tired of the semantic word games and ever shifting goalposts with the word black, and black people presuming to "inform" others of blacks inferiority complexes or "afrocentrist conspiracies" get my goat. As if the history of Egyptology is not rife with delusions, lies, conspiracies and all types of cherry picked evidence [Mad] [Mad] [Mad]

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BrandonP
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quote:
Originally posted by Punos_Rey:
Currently involved in a 10+ page long debate on Egypt's place in Africa that goes to the question of this very thread:

http://historum.com/middle-eastern-african-history/101068-why-do-people-always-assume-egypt-homogenous.html

Unbelievable to me how quickly the racism comes out on even supposedly objective forums, and the denial of African variation is mindboggling

I am sick and tired of the semantic word games and ever shifting goalposts with the word black, and black people presuming to "inform" others of blacks inferiority complexes or "afrocentrist conspiracies" get my goat. As if the history of Egyptology is not rife with delusions, lies, conspiracies and all types of cherry picked evidence [Mad] [Mad] [Mad]

I've decided the best way to frame the issue is to address the AE's origins and what ramifications those would have for how we picture them. In other words, emphasize they came from the interior of the eastern Sahara and so would have been indigenous Africans and therefore darker-skinned, since we know modern Mediterranean "North Africans" have Arab admixture and light-skin alleles of recent West Eurasian origin. You can mention that, in certain traditions, they could be called "black", but clarify that the lay race is a social construct and that not everyone we call "black", even south of the Sahara, is part of the same population substructure.

Sure, some people will still object, and may twist your words into saying AEs were from this or that sub-Saharan population substructure. But that's their distorted interpretation, not yours.

As an example, this is how I tried framing the issue recently.

quote:
So who would the indigenous Egyptians, who laid the groundwork of what we consider Pharaonic civilization, have been? It is fair to say that, far from being European or even Middle Eastern in appearance, they and their culture would have been native African in origin. Most probably they developed from cattle-herding African tribes roaming the savannas of the Sahara before they turned to desert around 3500 BC. When the time came for these Africans to settle along the Nile and organize themselves into larger chiefdoms that would later merge into the Egyptian nascent state, most of the foundations of classical Egyptian civilization would be laid in the southern part of the country (Upper Egypt, since it is further upriver) before they conquered the northern (Lower, or downriver) reaches.

The biological anthropologist S.O.Y. Keita, perhaps the most specialized in this topic, reports on these:

"Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000–3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians [referring to a Late Period series from 664–341 BC, regarded as a period of decline for Pharaonic Egyptian hegemony] or ancient or modern southern Europeans."
---— S.O.Y. Keita and AJ Boyce, “ The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians”, Egypt in Africa (1996: pp. 25–27

Among modern populations, perhaps the ones who most closely resemble the majority of ancient Egyptians would be those living in northern Sudan, or “Nubia” (with the caveat added that these populations may still have minor Arabic admixture). More distant proxies would come from other Northeast African countries like Somalia and Ethiopia, who nonetheless share the same common Saharan African heritage as the indigenous Egyptians and North Sudanese.


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Punos_Rey
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^Brandon I contorted myself into as many pretzels as I could emphasizing how race varies depending on how we define it, how indigenous Africans have great diversity, etc. But I will not be bullrushed into ceding the fact that the AE were tropically adapted Africans who clustered most closely with other Northeastern Africans but still have commonalities with other Africans.

I also refuse to entertain people calling the Nubians black and not the Egyptians. Not going to happen.

--------------------
 -

Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square.

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Some Euronuts don't call lower Nubians and Egyptians 'black' because they don't fit the racialized use of the word (i.e. the one one-drop is based on), but then turn around and flip flop and call lower Nubians 'black' based on AE caricatures or their jet-black skin in some paintings. These are all different usages, but people, even academics, will flip flop to different usages of 'black' in mid-conversation.
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@Nodnarb

In regards to your article: maybe we just need to come to grips with that adherence to the scientific method is not teachable, no matter what approach one takes. It doesn't work in other science/faith interfaces, so why would it work here?

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