Lioness is now posting random pictures, of unidentified individuals who's ethnic group nor background we don't know.
Doug says that the term "black" or "white" is based on color alone. Therefore their ethnic group is completely and totally irrelevant. One only need to measure how dark their skin is and make an assessment.
Divisive as that is one could use scientific methods to analyze how dark or light a person's skin color is, choose a dividing line and then give each range name "black" or "white"
Yet determining what the boundaries of an ethnic groups is and ascribing it "black" or "white" is much more vague and subjective and is much further complicated by the fact that huge masses of people, probably almost all people in this forums are comprised of more than one so called "ethnicity" -and it certainly is not color alone
Al Jahiz spoke of root and origin. You post random pictures. It makes no sense.
The thread topic is not Al Jahiz or root and origin. Read the initial post, observe the pictures and wake up
quote:Originally posted by Doug The only thing I have been saying is that black as a reference to skin color
Therefore one can simply look at a RANDOM picture of a person and determine if the person is black or not.
If you get into root or origin to define "black" then you are using a color word and that is what makes no sense, Again, East Indians are more genetically similar to light skinned Europeans therefore if they are to be regarded as "black" it has no relation to root and origin. This is above your head son, stop the cheeerleading
Once again, Al Jahiz spoke of ethnic groups and tribes specifically, from the region. What do the people you posted have to do with this? Look forward to your answer and explanation. Since it's "above my head" I urge you to post Arabic, or Swahilin sources. because I can't see how picture spams can eat above anyone's head, especially when it has nothing to do with Al Jahiz and the Zanj. LOL
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Head of an "Ethiopian" depicted in Hellenistic mode
All black Africans were termed Ethiopians by the ancient Greeks, and Greek artists had defined for them a distinct iconography well before the cosmopolitan Hellenistic period, when, especially in Ptolemaic Egypt, regular contact came about. (See the Timeline of Art History essay Africans in Ancient Greek Art http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/afrg/hd_afrg.htm)
This beautiful head of an "Ethiopian" was created as an attachment for some luxurious object of Hellenistic Greek type. A gold plug remains in the top of the head, and on the back twin loops were broken away. Possibly the head was part of a richly ornamented serving dish: for example, on one elaborate dish from Pompeii a head with a loop and ring decorates the rim next to the handle.
Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote: 4. Practice in translating kush: from Septuagint through a recent semantic shift.
Much of the translators' tendency to translate kush by a term that has modern day political significance stems from the Septuagint's use of the word Aithiopia . At the time the Septuagint was translated, this was indeed a correct Greek term to use in translating kush. The Greek word Aithiopia had both a narrow and a wide use. The narrow definition was the Nile valley, south of Egypt, such as used by Herodutus (5th century BC). "Aithiopians inhabit the country immediately above (south of] Elephantine [n.b. an island at Aswan]... you will arrive at a large city called Meroe: this city said to be the capital of all Aithiopia" (Herodutus ii.9). He also used the same definition of Aithiopia when he wrote of Cambyses procuring interpreters at Elephantine (modern Aswan) for his expedition into Aithiopia and marching in via Thebes and back out through Thebes and on to Memphis (iii 19-25). This Aithiopia is clearly the adjacent area south of Egypt. This narrow usage of Greek Aithiopia is also found in the Greek text of Acts 8:27, where the homeland of the eunuch is referred to as Aithiopia, where he served as treasurer to Candace, who is known to have reigned in Meroe. not in the modern state of Ethiopia (Adams 1977:260).
However, in recent centuries, translators into English and other languages have too often simply transliterated Aithiopia (from the Septuagint) into their target languages. This was not a problem as long as the meaning of the transliterated form in the target language was approximately the same as kush . This was the case when "Ethiopia" was first used in English Bible translation, at least as far back as 1382, when John Wyclif used it, a tradition continued by the KJV over 200 years later. When the English KJV was translated 400 years ago, the word "Ethiopia" in English was understood to mean the parts of Africa inhabited by black people. Also, at the time, there was no specific political state or government labeled "Ethiopia" known to English speakers. The use of the word "Ethiopia" in English was formerly a legitimate, though overly broad, translation of kush , well into the 1800's.
A clear example of how "Ethiopia was understood to include all of Black Africa can be seen in the founding of a denomination called the "Ethiopian Church" in 1892 (Balia 1994:20). Though these people lived far south of the borders of Ethiopia, they felt it to be a legitimate use of the word, reflecting their application of Ps. 68:31 to themselves.
Incidentally, a study of the usage of the word "Ethiopia" in English throughout the centuries disproves Adamo's argument that the use of the word "Ethiopia" in English Bibles led white English speakers to the misunderstanding that dark-skinned Africans are not a part of the Biblical narrative. A brief study of the Oxford English Dictionary, (the standard multi-volume historical dictionary of English), shows that up until at least the late 1800's, the word "Ethiopia" was understood to mean Black Africa and the term "Ethiopian" or "Ethiop" meant "a Black person", or just "black". For example, in 1684 an author described a person as "an Ethiopian, or Negro", using the labels in a synonymous sense. A botanist in 1578 referring to the seseli plant, labeled the black stalked variety as "the Ethiopian Seseli". In an apparent reference to Africa, Dryden wrote of "Ethiopian lands" (1697). We see then that "Ethiopia" and "Ethiopian" formerly did communicate the idea of Africa and black skinned people to English speakers. Adamo's assertion that translating with "Africa" will rectify a long- standing deficiency in English Bibles does not reflect an understanding of how "Ethiopia" was understood in the past. That is, the use of "Ethiopia" in the KJV conveyed exactly what he claims it did not: the people of kush were black skinned.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Ptolemy is but one source and at least 7 GrecoLatin authors were posted labeling Egyptians B L A C K
As Brandon aptly commented, Ptolemy does no more than relate the effects of mixing on colour from the heavily and longest time miscegenated Delta to the 'homogeneous' 5th cataract. But colour gradation is also natural as in Manilius.
The B L A C K scholar Chancellor Williams detailed the creaming of Egypt's 'coffee', from foreigner flooded delta ever upriver, 40 years ago. It's no new news, no bombshell.
But now for both colour and features equivalent to race science's so-called only real black physical type the true forest negro our GrecoLatin author is the Moretum . Anyone actually trying to share knowledge rather than rack up points or slander opponents knows that from their previous studies.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
From back in 2006 a member named Israel shared a list of GrecoLatin writers on Egypt's B L A C K description
quote:Originally posted by Israel: What's happening Ausar,
been a bit busy, but I got a little time now...
In terms of your question, here is Cheikh Anta Diop's summary.........
The Egyptian Race According to the Classical Authors of Antiquity
To the Greek and Latin writers contemporary with the ancient Egyptians the latter's physical classification posed no problems: the Egyptians were negroes, thick-lipped, kinky-haired and thin-legged; the unanimity of the author's evidence on a physical fact as salient as a people's race will be difficult to minimize or pass over. Some of the following evidence drives home the point.
(a) Herodotus, 'the father of history', -480(?) to -425. With regard to the origins of the Colchians25 he writes:
it is in fact manifest that the Colchidians are Egyptian by race ... several Egyptians told me that in their opinion the Colchidians were descended from soldiers of Sesostris. I had conjectured as much myself from two pointers, firstly because they have black skins and kinky hair (to tell the truth this proves nothing for other peoples have them too) and secondly, and more reliably for the reason that alone among mankind the Egyptians and the Ethiopians have practiced circumcision since time immemorial. The Phoenicians and Syrians of Palestine themselves admit that they learnt the practice from the Egyptians while the Syrians in the river Thermodon and Pathenios region and their neighbors the Macrons say they learnt it recently from the Colchidians. These are the only races which practice circumcision and it is observable that they do it in the same way as the Egyptians. As between the Egyptians themselves and the Ethiopians I could not say which taught the other the practice for among them it is quite clearly a custom of great antiquity. As to the custom having been learnt through their Egyptian connections, a further strong proof to my mind is that all those Phoenicians trading to Greece cease to treat the pudenda after the Egyptian manner and do not subject their offspring to circumcision.26
Herodotus reverts several times to the negroid character of the Egyptians and each time uses it as a fact of observation to argue more or less complex theses. Thus to prove that the Greek oracle at Dodona in Epirus was of Egyptian origin, one of his arguments is the following: '. . . and when they add that the dove was black they give us to understand that the woman was Egyptian.'27 The doves in question - actually there were two according to the text - symbolize two Egyptian women who are said to have BEEN carried off from the Egyptian Thebes to found the oracles in Greece at Dodona and in Libya (Oasis of Jupiter Amon) respectively. Herodotus did not share the opinion of Anaxagoras that the melting of the snows on the mountains of Ethiopia was the source of the Nile floods.28 He relied on the fact that it neither rains or snows in Ethiopia 'and the heat there turns men black'.29
(b) Aristotle, -389 to -332, scientist, philosopher and tutor of Alexander the Great.
In one of his minor works, Aristotle attempts, with unexpected naivete', to establish a correlation between the physical and moral natures of living beings and leaves us evidence on the Egyptian-Ethiopian race which confirms what Herodotus says. According to him, 'Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two.'30
(c) Lucian, Greek writer, +125(?) to +190.
The evidence of Lucian is as explicit as that of the two previous writers. He introduces two Greeks, Lycinus and Timolaus, who start a conversation.
Lycinus (describing a young Egyptian): 'This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin. . . his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman.'
Timolaus: 'But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus. All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place.'31
(d) Apollodorus, first century before our era, Greek philosopher.
'Aegyptos conquered the country of the blackfooted ones and called it Egypt after himself.'32
(e) Aeschylus, -525(?) to -456, tragic poet and creator of Greek tragedy.
In The Suppliants, Danaos, fleeing with his daughters, the Danaids, and pursued by his brother Aegyptos with his sons, the Aegyptiads, who seek to wed their cousins by force, climbs a hillock, looks out to sea and describes the Aegyptiads at the oars afar off in these terms: 'I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics.'33
A similar description of the Egyptian type of man recurs a few lines later in verse 745.
(f) Achilles Tatius of Alexandria.
He compares the herdsmen of the Delta to the Ethiopians and explains that they are blackish, like half-castes.
(g) Strabo, -58 to about +25.
Strabo visited Egypt and almost all the countries of the Roman empire. He concurs in the theory that the Egyptians and the Colchoi are of the same race but holds that the migrations to Ethiopia and Colchoi had been from Egypt only
'Egyptians settled in Ethiopia and in Colchoi.'34 There is no doubt whatever as to Strabo's notion of the Egyptian's race for he seeks elsewhere to explain why the Egyptians are darker than the Hindus, a circumstance which would permit the refutation, if needed, of any attempt at confusing 'the Hindu and Egyptian races'.
(h) Diodorus of Sicily, about -63 to +14, Greek historian and contemporary of Caesar Augustus.
According to Diodorus it was probably Ethiopia which colonized Egypt (in the Athenian sense of the term, signifying that, with overpopulation, a proportion of the people emigrate to new territory).
The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians `are one of their colonies,35 which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent. . . They add that the Egyptians have received from them, as from authors and their ancestors, the greater part of their laws.36
(i) Diogenes Laertius.
He wrote the following about Zeno, founder of the stoic School (-333 to -261): 'Zeno son of Mnaseas or Demeas was a native of Citium in Cyprus, a Greek city which has taken in some Phoenician colonists.' In his Lives, Timotheus of Athens describes Zeno as having a twisted neck. Apollonius of Tyre says of him that he was gaunt, very tall and black, hence the fact that, according to Chrysippus in the First Book of his Proverbs, certain people called him an Egyptian vine-shoot.37
(j) Ammianus Marcellinus, about +33 to +100, Latin historian and friend of the Emperor Julian.
With him we reach the sunset of the Roman empire and the end of classical antiquity. There are about nine centuries between the birth of Aeschylus and Herodotus and the death of Ammianus Marcellinus, nine centuries during which the Egyptians, amid a sea of white races, steadily crossbred. It can be said without exaggeration that in Egypt one household in ten included a white Asiatic or Indo-European slave.39
It is remarkable that, despite its intensity, all this crossbreeding should not have succeeded in upsetting the racial constants. Indeed Ammianus Marcellinus writes: ". . .the men of Egypt are mostly brown and black with a skinny and desiccated look."39 He also confirms the evidence already cited about the Colchoi: 'Beyond these lands are the heartlands of the Camaritae40 and the Phasis with its swifter stream borders the country of the Colchoi, an ancient race of Egyptian origin.'41
Beyond this, I know that Plutarch said that the tradition about Osiris was that he was Black........
Diodorus said that Osiris was Mitzraim(Egypt), who was the son of Ham.........(If you need me to, I can can give you the references on these last two descriptions).
This is what I know and have researched. Salaam
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Originally posted 07 March, 2006 by alTakruri:
quote: "And they said, 'The number of blacks is greater than the number of whites, because most of those who are counted as whites are comprised of peoples from Persia, the mountains, Khurasan, Rome, Slavia, France, and Iberia, and anything apart from them is insignificant.
But among the blacks are counted * Zanj * Ethiopians * Fezzani * Berbers * Copts * Nubians * Zaghawa * Moors
the people of * Sind * the Hindus * the Qamar * the Dabila * the IndoChinese and those beyond them.
The sea is more extensive than the land, and the islands in the sea between IndoChina and Zanzibar are full of blacks, like the * Sarandib * Kalah * Amal * Zabij and its islands up to Hindustan and IndoChina * Kabul and those coasts.
"They said, 'The Arabs come from us -- not from the whites -- because of the similarity of their colour to ours. The Hindus are more yellow in color than the Arabs, yet they are counted among the black peoples."
Abu Uthman Amr ibn Bahr al-Jahiz Kitab Fakhr as-Sudan 'Ala al-Bidan Baghdad: self-published, 815 C.E.
Ultimately, How does the following fit in with today's ideas of evolutionary genetics and human relatedness? I fail to see how this is useful when studying the origins or relatedness of human populations. Or maybe I am just missing the point.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
When did I say the concept of human skin colour meant any recent relatedness?
Recently on Nepal&Tibet I posit the skin colour Asian and African B L A C K s have in common goes back to southern route OoA and nrY E folk regardless of colour are obviously closer related than are eastern and western Aithiopians or Vanatu and Serere, for example.
You can't fork your argument, at one time claiming man on the street then next time claiming science whichever suits your purpose for the sake of the moment.
You could be mentoring a student at your former high school. You didn't have it but you going back to do it could make an unconceived positive impact with ripple effects.
posted
Peep the sleight of hand and note the population genetics non sense.
The claim was made repeatedly that the western use of 'black' was a modern conspiracy.
It was implied that the western use of 'black' is a corruption of al Jahiz purely skin pigmentation-based use of 'black' even though no proof of a connection between this medieval Arab and modern western use of the term was ever given in the first place. This is the type of absent-minded drivel we're dealing with. It's a complete non-sequitur fallacy that one use of black should necessarily inform the other.
Ptolemy was posted as proof that elements of the narrow use of 'black' are already attested in ancient times.
There was disagreement on whether features were included in said ancient use. But note the sleight of hand above, trying to make it seem like the Ptolemy text is now somehow irrelevant in regards to the reasons why it was posted. If not an early attestation of the combining of general outward appearance (Aethiopian) with skin pigmentation (jetblack skin), the Ptolemy text still proves that the stereotyping seen in the western use of 'black' is ancient. It's even more ancient than al Jahiz' text, the 'model' that the western use of 'black' supposedly 'conspires' against.
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
My claim remains as posited 2005 when I got here that authors since antiquity (and on three different continents) up to the Oxford Dictionary recognize Asian and African B L A C K s who aren't necessarily closely nor recently related.
I disagree with the position since the Black Americans identity went from African to coloured to negro to AfroAmerican to Black that only they and their glow are the only ones who are B L A C K.
Anyone saying anything else intentionally misrepresents me. I welcome all to ask me, without insolence, for precision, clarification, or expansion on what I mean and where I stand.
Eurocentrics used to pen 'black but not negro', now progressive deconstructionists want it 'not black unless negro'.
It's not gonna work.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My claim remains as posited 2005 when I got here that authors since antiquity (and on three different continents) up to the Oxford Dictionary recognize Asian and African B L A C K s who aren't necessarily closely nor recently related.
I disagree with the position since the Black Americans identity went from African to coloured to negro to AfroAmerican to Black that only they and their glow are the only ones who are B L A C K.
Anyone saying anything else intentionally misrepresents me. I welcome all to ask me, without insolence, for precision, clarification, or expansion on what I mean and where I stand.
Eurocentrics used to pen 'black but not negro', now progressive deconstructionists want it 'not black unless negro'.
It's not gonna work.
Describing people's skin as "black" as an adjective is a significant difference from describing a person as "black" as a noun as done in modern classification.
So many of these writers you refer to do not recognize "blacks" they are describing skin tone
and these writers are not such people describing themselves, they are the very Eurocentrics introducing this focus on skin color !
Ethiopians are are dark, East Indians are dark and Aboriginal Australians are dark. Is this some important similarity? But what importance is there in labeling these brown skinned people as "black" and putting it in capital letters with spaces between each letter?
Is that their main achievement that their skin is dark ?
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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If a white supremacist were to declare to you that "Black Africans never built a worthy civilization", would people here still choose to abstain from "Black"? Let's assume for argument's sake that you don't have the option of running away from the debate or blocking them. On the one hand, if you choose to adopt their terminology, there's the risk that they'll shift the goalpost by narrowing the definition of "Black" identity. On the other hand, since they won't listen to non-racialist anthro discourse if they even understand it, you're pretty much stuck communicating in terms they can grasp. So how would you answer them?
quote:Originally posted by Nodnarb: There is one question I want to ask.
If a white supremacist were to declare to you that "Black Africans never built a worthy civilization", would people here still choose to abstain from "Black"? Let's assume for argument's sake that you don't have the option of running away from the debate or blocking them. On the one hand, if you choose to adopt their terminology, there's the risk that they'll shift the goalpost by narrowing the definition of "Black" identity. On the other hand, since they won't listen to non-racialist anthro discourse if they even understand it, you're pretty much stuck communicating in terms they can grasp. So how would you answer them?
From what I can recall, Blumenbach called the cranium of an Ghanian woman, Ethiopian.
Anyway, I just looked at "dc legends of tomorrow", last episode, and wondered about some of the characters.
While searching I bumped into this one, blurred lines:
quote: Expanding on the work of Carolus Linnaeus, German professor of medicine Johann Friedrich Blumenbach introduced one of the race-based classifications in On the Natural Variety of Mankind.
In the second edition Blumenbach changed his original geographically based four-race arrangement to a five-group one that emphasized physical morphology (the study of the form of an organism).
Blumenbach’s five categories were: Caucasian, the white race; Mongolian, the yellow race; Malayan, the brown race; Ethiopian, the black race; and American, the red race. Although he retained geographical names for his categories, the change marked a shift from geography to physical appearance.
Since the 1980s, CBS reports, Henfy has been fighting to have the U.S. government reclassify him as black, which is how he’s always seen himself. “My classification as a white man takes away my black pride, my black heritage and my strong black identity,” Henfy told the Detroit News.
Hefny, 61, filed a suit in 1997 against the U.S. government to be reclassified, but his case was dismissed. Hefny has also reached out to President Obama for help, writing him a letter on June 29, the Detroit News reports, as well as the Justice Department and the United Nations.
“I have been awarded, inadvertently, the negative effects of being black such as racial profiling, stereotypes and disenfranchisement due to my Negroid features. However, the legal demand of my racial classification of ‘white’ prevents me from receiving benefits established for black people, “ he told CBS. Hefny says he’s lost out on university teaching positions because they were positions designed for a minority and he did not qualify.
Currently, Directive 15 for the federal Office of Management and Budget Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity defines race by the following categories: Hispanic or Latino, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black of African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific islander, White, Nonresident alien, Resident alien, and Race/ethnicity unknown.
White” is defined as “a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa” — which is why the U.S. government classifies Hefny as such. However, the desgination for “Black or African American” applies to “a person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.” According to CBS, Hefny says that he is descended from the Nubians, the ancient group of Egyptians from the northern part of Sudan and southern part of Egypt.
An article by Charles Whitaker in Ebony in 2002 entitled “Was Cleopatra Black?” explored this topic of racial classification in Egypt, and found that, among scholars, “discussions of Cleopatra’s race were so couched and so guarded that professors even fear engaging in the discussion publicly.”
“Cleopatra is one of those figures whose race often depends on the lens you use to view her,” Julia Perkins, associate directors of community programs for the Art Institute of Chicago told Ebony. Whitaker talked to various scholars who all found classifying Cleopatra to be “full of complexity, full of odd historical twists, and that there was no real, easy answer.” Her father’s mother may have been a concubine from Nubia, Whitaker writes, so that would make her African Egyptian.
Hefny also classifies himself as African Egyptian, and has co-founded The Association of Black Egyptian, Ethiopian, and Nubian Advocates to drum up support for his cause. He’s posted a petition online, and currently has collected 188 signatures.
posted
^nice write up but in his own statements Hefny reifies the "non-African" or rather more specifically "non-Black" notion of indigenous AE
Edit@Swenet: I see what you are stressing now and wby you used the quote from Ptolemy. I've always tried to be careful to keep in mind disparate uses of the word black or other synonyms and also tie those uses to their historical context. As I've tried to do in arguments outside this forum when I enter discussions avoiding the use of the term black entirely yet still get pulled into it anyway, ugh.
Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: ^nice write up but in his own statements Hefny reifies the "non-African" or rather more specifically "non-Black" notion of indigenous AE
Not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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In my last semi-public debate with someone from the opposing side i had that happen to me. I find that the problem is not so much that they're doing it but that the bystanders (often their friends) don't correct this. It's still easy to refute the crap out of them, even if they try to gang up on you. It'll just take a little longer.
A lot of debates go on longer than needed because there is no moderation or because the moderators themselves are participating in that sort of behavior. He was a mod there. I challenged him several times to continue the debate we were having publicly on a reputable anthro forum with neutral mods assigned to keep tabs on who was winning. He changed the subject and ignored my invitation several times.
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quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: My claim remains as posited 2005 when I got here that authors since antiquity (and on three different continents) up to the Oxford Dictionary recognize Asian and African B L A C K s who aren't necessarily closely nor recently related.
I disagree with the position since the Black Americans identity went from African to coloured to negro to AfroAmerican to Black that only they and their glow are the only ones who are B L A C K.
Anyone saying anything else intentionally misrepresents me. I welcome all to ask me, without insolence, for precision, clarification, or expansion on what I mean and where I stand.
Eurocentrics used to pen 'black but not negro', now progressive deconstructionists want it 'not black unless negro'.
It's not gonna work.
Describing people's skin as "black" as an adjective is a significant difference from describing a person as "black" as a noun as done in modern classification.
So many of these writers you refer to do not recognize "blacks" they are describing skin tone
and these writers are not such people describing themselves, they are the very Eurocentrics introducing this focus on skin color !
Ethiopians are are dark, East Indians are dark and Aboriginal Australians are dark. Is this some important similarity? But what importance is there in labeling these brown skinned people as "black" and putting it in capital letters with spaces between each letter?
Is that their main achievement that their skin is dark ?
I totality forgot about this post. But Egyptians can be dark as well. Especially in middle Egypt, and more so to the South. Should we include or exclude them? They themselves say black, which to them is synonymous to saying Nubian.
But this color debate certainly has a philosophical point of view, and is all relative...
quote: "The lower parts of the country on either side of Meroê, along the Nile towards the Red Sea, are inhabited by Megabari and Blemmyes, who are subject to the Aethiopians and border on the Aegyptians, and, along the sea, by Troglodytes (the Troglodytes opposite Meroê are a ten or twelve days' journey distant from the Nile), but the parts on the left side of the course of the Nile, in Libya, are inhabited by Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroê, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Aethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms. The extent of Aegypt along the sea from the Pelusiac to the Canobic mouth is one thousand three hundred stadia. This, then, is what Eratosthenes says.
posted
Ish Gabor says: Since the 1980s, CBS reports, Henfy has been fighting to have the U.S. government reclassify him as black, which is how he’s always seen himself. “My classification as a white man takes away my black pride, my black heritage and my strong black identity,” Henfy told the Detroit News.
You notice other modern Egyptians are not beating down the door to follow Hefny- what with a whopping 188 signatures on his petition. Most of the modern Egyptians I have run into rather like the "white" classification - there are benefits- and they can "distance" themselves from being black. They really gain very little from the black classification. There are few "affirmative action" advantages. 'Affirmative Action" has been a dying or minor horse since the 1980s- with minor impact for blacks- as even conservative scholars like Thomas Sowell show, contrary to the bogus propaganda claims of assorted right wingers. One, ex-felon pundit Dinesh Dsouza, has oft declared "The End of Racism" but fails to mention that EEOC has a backlog of thousands of race discrimination cases, a TWO YEAR BACKLOG, or should we say a "BLACKLOG." And credible research shows bias and discrimination based on skin color is still alive and well. See for example Hochschild 2007. The Skin Color Paradox and the American Racial Order. Social FOrces 86, 2. So much for bogus right-wing white propaganda.
Ish Gabor says: quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: ^nice write up but in his own statements Hefny reifies the "non-African" or rather more specifically "non-Black" notion of indigenous AE
Not sure what you mean, can you elaborate?
^^From what I have read on Hefny he was trying an Affirmative action" tie-in in his beef with his employers. His opponents no doubt say he "became black" only when the heat was on. But I don't blame him for fighting back using all weapons available.
FROM ARTICLE:
Currently, Directive 15 for the federal Office of Management and Budget Standards for the Classification of Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity defines race by the following categories: Hispanic or Latino, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black of African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific islander, White, Nonresident alien, Resident alien, and Race/ethnicity unknown.
“White” is defined as “a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa” — which is why the U.S. government classifies Hefny as such. However, the desgination for “Black or African American” applies to “a person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.” According to CBS, Hefny says that he is descended from the Nubians, the ancient group of Egyptians from the northern part of Sudan and southern part of Egypt.
^Again, modern Egyptians in the US with the benefit of being "white" are in no hurry to follow Hefny.
An article by Charles Whitaker in Ebony in 2002 entitled “Was Cleopatra Black?” explored this topic of racial classification in Egypt, and found that, among scholars, “discussions of Cleopatra’s race were so couched and so guarded that professors even fear engaging in the discussion publicly.”
^^The reason it is "couched" and "guarded" is that Cleopatra's exact "racial" makeup is somewhat ambiguous, and to say that is to expose the edifice of white falsity and propaganda that trumpeted white Elizabeth Taylor types as the "true representative." But also - many don't want at all to advertise the possibility of any race mix because under the American-European "one drop rule" that would make Cleo "black."
“Cleopatra is one of those figures whose race often depends on the lens you use to view her,” Julia Perkins, associate directors of community programs for the Art Institute of Chicago told Ebony. Whitaker talked to various scholars who all found classifying Cleopatra to be “full of complexity, full of odd historical twists, and that there was no real, easy answer.” Her father’s mother may have been a concubine from Nubia, Whitaker writes, so that would make her African Egyptian.
^^Which is another primary reason they are "couched" and "guarded."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Ish Gabor says: Since the 1980s, CBS reports, Henfy has been fighting to have the U.S. government reclassify him as black, which is how he’s always seen himself. “My classification as a white man takes away my black pride, my black heritage and my strong black identity,” Henfy told the Detroit News.
You notice other modern Egyptians are not beating down the door to follow Hefny- what with a whopping 188 signatures on his petition. Most of the modern Egyptians I have run into rather like the "white" classification - there are benefits- and they can "distance" themselves from being black. They really gain very little from the black classification.
Why have color classification? What good is it?
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Skin color classification pays, and most of the benefits have flowed to white people, who have rigged the game to ensure that their color gets paid handsomely indeed. White scholars who have studied the field are candid about it. See for example Daria Rothmayr's book. Her angle is to apply cartel and monopoly concepts to show how white people get paid by discrimination. Her examples are good ones- if anything they are understated, though her notion of using technical anti-trust law per se to attack discrimination is weaker. But there is a lot of literature out there.
Reproducing Racism: How Everyday Choices Lock in White Advantage.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Skin color classification pays, and most of the benefits have flowed to white people, who have rigged the game to ensure that their color gets paid handsomely indeed.
Therefore "white" and "black" should be discarded
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Skin color classification pays, and most of the benefits have flowed to white people, who have rigged the game to ensure that their color gets paid handsomely indeed.
Therefore "white" and "black" should be discarded
I agree, but that's Utopia.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Ish Gabor says: Since the 1980s, CBS reports, Henfy has been fighting to have the U.S. government reclassify him as black, which is how he’s always seen himself. “My classification as a white man takes away my black pride, my black heritage and my strong black identity,” Henfy told the Detroit News.
You notice other modern Egyptians are not beating down the door to follow Hefny- what with a whopping 188 signatures on his petition. Most of the modern Egyptians I have run into rather like the "white" classification - there are benefits- and they can "distance" themselves from being black. They really gain very little from the black classification.
Why have color classification? What good is it?
The classification was born centuries ago. It deals with superiority. People in certain positions don't want to lose control over their position.
Henfy his experiences are factual in this. No one is going to follow that path. At least not that manny.
However the question is, how does this translate into daily experience?
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Skin color classification pays, and most of the benefits have flowed to white people, who have rigged the game to ensure that their color gets paid handsomely indeed. White scholars who have studied the field are candid about it. See for example Daria Rothmayr's book. Her angle is to apply cartel and monopoly concepts to show how white people get paid by discrimination. Her examples are good ones- if anything they are understated, though her notion of using technical anti-trust law per se to attack discrimination is weaker. But there is a lot of literature out there.
Reproducing Racism: How Everyday Choices Lock in White Advantage.
posted
If you can get your hands on the one below is much better- a real eye opener. I was surprised to learn for example the extent to which white govt regimes subsidized the destruction of black neighborhoods via "urban renewal" and building of new highways so white people could get out to the suburbs an commute back to the central area for jobs. Meanwhile the same governments (a) did not replace all the housing they had destroyed, (b) supported racist real estate practices freezing out black buyers (though talking piously about "free markets"), (c) turned over some of the "renewed" areas to white corporate interests so they could profit and (d) refused to give black people federal or other loans to buy housing in areas designated as "white."
The presence of just one or two black families in an area could cause it to be "redlined" off- with very few or no govt backed loans available. This is one reason white homeowners so often responded violently when blacks tried to buy into an area. Their own white banks and govt agencies might "seal off" the area in red- meaning their property values would suffer, and loans to help finance sale or purchase would be hard to come by in the "tainted area." It was not an abstract "government" doing this but government ruled by white people and backed and supported by white people.
Then there are the white unions, who murdered black railroad workers in some areas so whites could take over their jobs. Even President Harry Truman commented on this phenomenon.
In some ways - it is a very disturbing read, but an eye opener shattering many myths and propaganda tropes.
posted
Zarahan, I had several discussions with white racist online. About 90% of them claimed to have some college or university degree. They were always very hostile, with clear racist intentions.
A real eyeopener was:
He may have unravelled DNA, but James Watson deserves to be shunned
"But it’s not awful. Watson has said that he is “not a racist in a conventional way”. But he told the Sunday Times in 2007 that while people may like to think that all races are born with equal intelligence, those “who have to deal with black employees find this not true”. Call me old-fashioned, but that sounds like bog-standard, run-of-the-mill racism to me."
His view was based on a traditional/ classic view, and reinforced with the bestseller, the bell-curve. Hence bestseller.
When, I posted at Topix, there was this individual who stated that blacks should be banned from higher-education because of Afrocentric fews. This was a way to prevent spread of Africana, as he sated. He claimed to be a professor and called blacks who disagree on his views, Afro-nazis. Yes.
This individual goes by the name of Barros, amongst other nicknames.
A few snippets: The Possessive Investment in Whiteness
posted
Ish Gebor I wonder if this "Barros" is the same personage as "David Bowden" who for months claimed to have a doctorate in African Studies and was proven to be lying.
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Meet on the Level, act upon the Plumb, part on the Square. Posts: 574 | From: Guinee | Registered: Jul 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Punos_Rey: Ish Gebor I wonder if this "Barros" is the same personage as "David Bowden" who for months claimed to have a doctorate in African Studies and was proven to be lying.
I have never heard of "David Bowden". But Barros does has different screen names.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Most of the people who argue for a non-black Egypt are racist. When I say argue I don't mean asking questions. There are some racially ambiguous traits to Egyptian art. I'm talking about people who will continue to argue against evidence and logic because they struggle with the realization that white daddy lied to them.
Someone talking about the relation with Berbers and people in the Nile Valley but you can't name more than three other African tribes is a racist.
Someone like the dude at Historum who said Amenhotep iii, Narmer and Huni looked mixed race is a racist.
Someone who questioned the Amarna results even after you explained to them that it links to Jama and showed them the Carsten Pusch interview is a racist.
Someone who talks about African Americans stealing history while Hollywood white washes the hell out of ancient Egyptian casting is a racist.
Someone who uses the term Afrocentric for any black scholar they disagree with or think they might disagree with is a racist.
Then you have that breed that does racist stuff based on a deeper bit of programming. Example:
quote: People have always enslaved each-other
quote:Have you studied African history before Christ?
posted
Ish Gabor says: "But it’s not awful. Watson has said that he is “not a racist in a conventional way”. But he told the Sunday Times in 2007 that while people may like to think that all races are born with equal intelligence, those “who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.
Call me old-fashioned, but that sounds like bog-standard, run-of-the-mill racism to me."
Indeed, it is basic racism, and typically, and conveniently, Watson and assorted white right-wingers skip over the behavior of alleged WHITE "role models" in comparison. As regards pace-setting northern Europeans for example the white Irish were notorious for violence, drunkenness and sloth in the workplace as even CONSERVATIVE authors like Thomas Sowell shows. Irish employees of certain railroads for example were reported to commit “a murder a mile” of track laid. Let's recap:
[QUOTE:]
Northern European "role models" unimpressive
"Such living patterns reflected not only the poverty of the Irish but also their being used to squalid living conditions in mud huts in Ireland... Sewage piled up in backyard privies until the municipal authorities chose to collect it, or else it ran off in open trenches, fouling the air and providing breeding grounds for dangerous diseases. The importance of proper garbage disposal, to keep the neighborhood from being overrun with rats, was one of many similar facts of urban life that every rural group new to the city would have to learn over the years, beginning with the Irish, and continuing through many others until the present day. Cholera, which had been unknown before, swept through Boston in 1849, concentrated almost exclusively in Irish neighborhoods. In New York, cholera was also disproportionately observed in Irish wards. In various cities, both tuberculosis and fire swept regularly through the overcrowded tenements where the Irish lived, and there was a high rate of insanity among the Irish immigrants.. The incidence of tuberculosis in Boston varied closely with the proportion of the Irish living in a neighborhood.
Patterns of alcoholism and fighting brought over from Ireland persisted in the United States. Over half the people arrested in New York in the 1850s were Irish.. Police vans became known as 'Paddy wagons" because the prisoners in them were so often Irish. "The fighting Irish" was a phrase that covered everything from individual brawls to mass melees (known as "Donnybrooks" for a town in Ireland) to criminal gangs.. Irish neighborhoods were tough neighborhoods in cities around the country. The Irish Sixth Ward in New York was known as "the bloody ould Sixth." Another Irish Neighborhood in New York was known as "Hell's Kitchen," and another as 'San Juan Hill" because of the battles fought there. In Milwaukee, the Irish section was called the "Bloody Third".. Where the Irish workers built the Illinois Central Railroad, people spoke of "a murder a mile" as they laid track. The largest riot in American history was by predominantly Irish rioters in New York in 1863. . .
Even the proportion of the black population who were laborers and house servants in Boston in 1850 was much lower than among the Irish, and the free blacks in mid-century Boston were in general economically better off than the Irish. The Irish-women's work as domestic servants and washerwomen was usually more steadily available than that of Irishmen- a situation later to be repeated among blacks.
As in Ireland itself, the poverty and improvidence of the Irish immigrants to America often reduced them to living on charity when hard times came. In early nineteenth-century Ireland, even before the famine, it was common for whole families of the poor to go 'tramping about it for months, bragging from parish to parish.' Recourse to public charity was a well-established habit carried over to America. Expenditures for relief to the poor in Boston more than doubled from 1845 to 1855, during the heavy influx of the Irish, after such expenditures had been relatively stable for years. In New York City in the same era, about 60 percent of the people in almshouses had been born in Ireland. As late as 1906, there were more Irish than Italian paupers, beggars and inmates of almshouses, even though the Italians arrived a generation later and were generally poorer at the turn of the century. radically different attitudes toward accepting charity existed in Ireland and Italy, and these attitudes apparently had more effect than their respective objective economic conditions in America. There were similar cultural differences in attitudes toward the abandonment of wives and children. In the 1840s, 'it was almost automatically assumed than an orphan was Irish," and as late as 1914, about half the Irish families on Manhattan's west side were fatherless. No such pattern appeared among the Italians.
Although the Irish immigrants (like other immigrants) had a disproportionate representation of young people in the prime of life, the mortality rate shot up after their arrival. Boston's mortality rate in 1850 was double that of the rest of Massachusetts, even though there were relatively fewer aged people in Boston. The difference was due to the extremely high mortality rate in the Irish neighborhoods. Diseases that had become rare in America now flourished again. In 1849, cholera spread through Philadelphia to New York and to Boston- primarily in Irish neighborhoods. There had not been a smallpox epidemic in Boston since 1792, but after 1845, it became a recurring plague, again primarily among the Irish. The spread of the Irish into other neighborhoods, mean, among other things, the spread of these and other diseases. The residential flight of middle-class Americans from the Irish immigrants was by no means all irrationality...
Today's neighborhood changes have been dramatized by such expressions was 'white flight' but these patterns existed long before black-white neighborhood changes were the issue. When the nineteenth-century Irish immigrants flooded into New York and Boston, the native Americans fled. With the first appearance of an Irish family in a neighborhood, 'the exodus of non-Irish residents began. 'White flight' is a misleading term, not only because of its historical narrowness, but also because blacks too have fled when circumstances were reversed. Blacks fled a whole series of neighborhoods in nineteenth-century New York, 'pursued' by new Italian immigrants who moved in. The first blacks in Harlem were fleeing from the tough Irish neighborhoods in mid-Manhattan, and avoided going north of 145th Street for fear of encountering more Irish there." [ENDQUOTE] --FROM: Sowell, T. (1981). Ethnic America
On the violence front, putative white "role models" are unimpressive. In fact in some eras rates of murder and other violence far exceed anything by blacks. One only has to examine different historical periods, and we are not even getting into 20th century violence by those paragons of white virtue- the northern European Germans and their "final solution."
The white Irish for example posted arrest rates well above their population representation- 50% in some years of NYC compared to an Irish population of about 24% of the city. If the comparison is to the Irish as a proportion of the total population the disparity is even more shocking. More than 5 times as many Irish were convicted in court than among the native population. Back then the "law and order" problem, was essentially a white Irish problem. In Philadelphia in the 1860s and thru the mid 1870s the indictment rate for crimes for the white Irish was almost twice that of other groups, even though the Irish made up less that 20% of the city's people- posting an indictment rate of 4.7 per 100,000 compared to the citywide average of 2.9 per 100,000. The murder rate among the white Irish exceeded that of blacks. In 1860 in Boston the white Irish accounted for 75% of arrestees and police detainees, though only making up about 40% of the population. Again if the comparison is to the Irish as a percentage of the national population the disparity looms wider. This pattern was all over where the Irish settled: from New York, to Philly, to Boston, to Chicago.
If violent Irish group riots are added on top of the above the picture is even grimmer. Leaving aside from the worse Irish riots in US history- the Draft Riots- Irish gangs actually grew in size and ferocity afterwards. Groups like the Dead Rabbits or the Bowery Boys fought for days, deploying thousands, and requiring the National Guard or the militia to suppress them. Indeed, allegedly more ":restrained" whites posted the bloodiest street violence in US History. As one history notes:
"The New York Draft Riot has gone down in history as one of the nation's bloodiest urban riots. Moreover, the behavior of the Irish during these fateful days and the racism they exhibited reinforced their reputation for violence." (Dolan, JP, The Irish Americans: A History. p. 49)
On the political scene, the Irish used thuggish violence and intimidation on a mass scale- with street riots, stabbings and shootings as squads of drunken Irishmen packing clubs, knives gun and razors went from precinct to precinct assaulting the opposition. Chicago was the scene of much of this election mayhem. People complain about intimidation by ACORN? ACORN ain't nothing really but a bunch of old ladies, compared to the Irish intimidation and murder squads of the past. (Source: Micahel Barone, 2001: The New Americans p 41-45)
On other measures of social propriety, assorted whites were no paragons. One survey of prostitutes in the 1800s in heavily Irish NYC for example "revealed that 35 percent were Irish and 12 percent German." The Irish also posted higher rates of female-headed families than other ethnic groups in the same time period. (Binder, F, and Reimers D. (1996) All the Nations Under Heaven: An Ethnic and Racial History of New York City. Columbia University Press.)
More violence..
As regards the 2011 black homicide rate of 17.51 per thousand this is high, but often surpassed by whites- it just depends on the time period you want to study. The supposedly more self-restrained Dutch of Amsterdam posted a whopping 47 per 100,000 in the 16th century, higher than any rate ever recorded for New York City, Irish and all. (Epstein and Gang 2010. Migration and Culture, Vol 8) In Maryland the rate at which unrelated European adults killed was 29 per 100,000 adults per year in the mid 1600s. In white Virginia it was 37 per 100,000. The supposedly more virtuous Yankee peoples in colonial America in the Chesapeake posted a rate of 12 per 100,000.
In some decades of the 1800s, white San Francisco posted rates well above 17.5. Even allegedly milder white Oregon posted a rate around 30 per 100,000. (Randolph Roth- Homicide Rates in the American West) Using modern FBI formulas, mostly white Los Angeles County in the 19th century ran up a body count of about 414 homicides per 100,000. (McKanna 2002. Race and Homicide in 19th Century California). Nor is the West unique. Studies show the heavily white Scotch-Irish Kentucky-Tennessee borderlands posting a rate of 24 per 100,000 starting in the 1850s. ( –Randolph Roth, 2009. American Homicide). In a study of homicides in white Russia, it was found that in 1998, the homicide victimization rate was 23.9 per 100,000. The 1999 homicide figures were substantially up over those for 1998.” –Encyclopedia of Crime and Punishment, Vol 1. 2002 (David Levinson ed) p. 1426. ============================================ ==========
As regards marriage and morality, white northern European “role models” are equally unimpressive.
It is a fact that for decades prior to the 1960s, black folk in the US posted higher marriage rates and lower divorce rates than whites. Furthermore white OOW rates are hardly sterling. Among the supposedly more virtuous northern Europeans for example, like the white Irish, the OOW rate in some decades of the 19th century exceeded 50% in heavily Irish areas of settlement in cities like NYC, even though the Irish made up less than 26% of the population at the time (Sowell 1981, 1983).
Supposedly virtuous white "Nordic" Europeans are no better. In the 1850s, in Sweden's biggest city, Stockholm, for example, the illegitimacy rate was close to 50%. As Burns and Scott (1994) show, by the mid 19th century when reliable cross-national figures are widely available, it was found than in illegitimacy, (Stockholm (with a 46% rate in the 1850s) was second only to Vienna (49%) among European capitals. Indeed this trend was a continuation since the early 1800s. Nor was this solely a pattern for mid century 1800s. In ultra-white Sweden at the start of the 20th century, barely half of Swedish women married and around one-sixth of children were born out of wedlock. Nor was this solely an urban Stockholm phenomenon. High illegitimacy rates and declining marriage rates were also found in rural areas as well (A companion to nineteenth-century Europe, 1789-1914, By Stefan Berger, Wiley 2006.) By contrast, as late as 1950 the US black illegitimacy rate stood at 17%, well below that of the touted white Swedish "role models" above, and for 50 years, black marriage rates were higher than that of US whites (Sowell 2004- Black Rednecks, White Liberals), and better than the Swedish pattern over several decades. The black illegitimacy rate in 1965 was STILL lower than the 28% posted by US whites in 2000.
Closer into the 20th century, white Nordic "role models" are no paragons of virtue: By the year 2000, out of wedlock births in Nordic Sweden had reached 53% of all births- a steep rise from a mere 10% illegitimacy rate in mid century. (A population history of the United States By Herbert S. Klein, Cambridge University Press. 2004. p. 216) Nor are supposedly more virtuous white people of other "Nordic" nations any better. In the early 1980s illegitimacy rates were on the order of 45% in Iceland and Sweden and 40% in Denmark. (Report on Immigrant populations and demographic development in the member states of the Council of Europe. Rinus Penninx, Council of Europe. 1984.)
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Unfortunately the author did not refer to the original Ptolemy text. So I had to look it up. But from what I understand the author of the classical Greek text is Claudius Ptolemaeus.
I will do deep search, research on this; Γεωγραφικὴ Ὑφήγησις.
Thanks for the post.
quote:
The Geographike Hyphegesis , which can be translated as Geographical Guide (or manual, handbook ), comprises eight Books (I-VII). In Book I, containing 24 chapters, Ptolemy develops his theories on both world cartography ( γεωγραφία , geography ) and regional topography ( χωρογραφία , chorography ), explains the method of constructing a map of the then inhabited world ( oikoumene ) in proportion to the real world. In that map is depicted Europe without Scandinavia, Asia and the northern part of Africa with the famous terra incognita to the south of the Equator unifying Africa with Asia.
This video is miss leading. He proposes that Bayesian statistics represent is the best way to do research. This is false . The example he provides of a 60/50 comparison of data will naturally provide false results because the two groups are unequal.
Scientific method vs.Bayesian statitics Research is the foundation of good science, or knowing in general. There are four methods of 1) Method of tenacity (one holds firmly to the truth, because "they know it" to be true); 2) method of authority (the method of established belief, i.e., the Bible or the "experts" says it, it is so); 3) method of intuition (the method where a proposition agrees with reason, but not necessarily with experience); and 4) the method of science (the method of attaining knowledge which calls for self-correction).
The aim of science is theory construction (F.N. Kirlinger, 1986, pp.6-10; R. Braithwaite, 1955, pp. 1-10). A theory is a set of interrelated constructs, propositions and definitions that provide a systematic understanding of phenomena by outlining relations among a group of variables that explain and predict phenomena. Scientific inquiry involves issues of theory construction, control and experimentation.
Scientific knowledge must rest on testing, rather than mere induction which can be defined as inferences of laws and generalizations, derived from observation. Karl Popper (2002) rejects this form of logical validity based solely on inference and conjecture (pp. 33-65). Popper maintains that confirmation in science is arrived at through falsification.
I will admit that I am a falsificationist . It can be defined as “ Falsificationism is an inductivist approach to knowledge production that basically asserts that theories cannot be proved but that theories or hypotheses can be disproved, or falsified. “
Therefore to confirm a theory in science one tests the theory through rigorous attempts at falsification. In falsification the researcher uses cultural, linguistic, anthropological and historical knowledge to invalidate a proposed theory. If a theory can not be falsified through yes of the variables associated with the theory it is confirmed. It can only be disconfirmed when new generalizations associated with the original theory fail to survive attempts at falsification.
In short, science centers on conjecture and refutations.
John P. A. Ioannidis recommends the use of Bayesian statistical methods to get a better understanding of research, instead of statistical significance to falsify a hypothesis. Bayesian statistical method, is a subjective research design/method that provides a rational method of updating the researcher's beliefs. Since Bayesian statistics are only updating a researcher’s beliefs there is no hypothesis testing and reality: no science, since you can not have science without hypothesis testing.
Instead of using Bayesian statistics researchers should use random sampling to secure a sample population for the study. This is done because a Random sample makes the groups equal. It also controls the extraneous variables. In this way statistical significance will provide a good measure for the reliability and validity of your research, as oppose to simply using Bayesian statistics updating your prior beliefs
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Unfortunately the author did not refer to the original Ptolemy text. So I had to look it up. But from what I understand the author of the classical Greek text is Claudius Ptolemaeus.
I will do deep search, research on this; Γεωγραφικὴ Ὑφήγησις.
Thanks for the post.
quote:
The Geographike Hyphegesis , which can be translated as Geographical Guide (or manual, handbook ), comprises eight Books (I-VII). In Book I, containing 24 chapters, Ptolemy develops his theories on both world cartography ( γεωγραφία , geography ) and regional topography ( χωρογραφία , chorography ), explains the method of constructing a map of the then inhabited world ( oikoumene ) in proportion to the real world. In that map is depicted Europe without Scandinavia, Asia and the northern part of Africa with the famous terra incognita to the south of the Equator unifying Africa with Asia.
It's somewhat odd, because. he lived at Alexandria.
This is why wikipedia is useful. One easily discovers that Claudius Ptolemaeus AD 100 – c. 170 is the latin version of "Claudius Ptolemy" and the man is often referred to by his just his last name Ptolemy. When you see Ptolemy I with the roman numeral "I" after it, that is when it is referring to the a Macedonian king of Egypt a few hundred years prior
wikipedia:
Ptolemaeus (Πτολεμαῖος – Ptolemaios) is a Greek name. It occurs once in Greek mythology, and is of Homeric form.[8] It was common among the Macedonian upper class at the time of Alexander the Great, and there were several of this name among Alexander's army, one of whom made himself King of Egypt in 323 BC: Ptolemy I Soter. All the kings after him, until Egypt became a Roman province in 30 BC, were also Ptolemies.
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Unfortunately the author did not refer to the original Ptolemy text. So I had to look it up. But from what I understand the author of the classical Greek text is Claudius Ptolemaeus.
The book I quoted clearly says in its title and elsewhere that it's a translation of Ptolemy's Geography. Are you saying the quote isn't in Ptolemy's Geography?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It's somewhat odd, because Claudius Ptolemaeus lived at Alexandria.
That he lived near the Tropic of Cancer is implied in that quote when he says "on our side of the equator . . . on the Summer Tropic" and refers to place in Nubia as "places to the south of here". Please clarify what is odd about his residence in the Delta.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Unfortunately the author did not refer to the original Ptolemy text. So I had to look it up. But from what I understand the author of the classical Greek text is Claudius Ptolemaeus.
I will do deep search, research on this; Γεωγραφικὴ Ὑφήγησις.
Thanks for the post.
quote:
The Geographike Hyphegesis , which can be translated as Geographical Guide (or manual, handbook ), comprises eight Books (I-VII). In Book I, containing 24 chapters, Ptolemy develops his theories on both world cartography ( γεωγραφία , geography ) and regional topography ( χωρογραφία , chorography ), explains the method of constructing a map of the then inhabited world ( oikoumene ) in proportion to the real world. In that map is depicted Europe without Scandinavia, Asia and the northern part of Africa with the famous terra incognita to the south of the Equator unifying Africa with Asia.
It's somewhat odd, because. he lived at Alexandria.
This is why wikipedia is useful. One easily discovers that Claudius Ptolemaeus AD 100 – c. 170 is the latin version of "Claudius Ptolemy" and the man is often referred to by his just his last name Ptolemy. When you see Ptolemy I with the roman numeral "I" after it, that is when it is referring to the a Macedonian king of Egypt a few hundred years prior
wikipedia:
Ptolemaeus (Πτολεμαῖος – Ptolemaios) is a Greek name. It occurs once in Greek mythology, and is of Homeric form.[8] It was common among the Macedonian upper class at the time of Alexander the Great, and there were several of this name among Alexander's army, one of whom made himself King of Egypt in 323 BC: Ptolemy I Soter. All the kings after him, until Egypt became a Roman province in 30 BC, were also Ptolemies.
I have seen it, and have been avoiding it on purpose. LOL I am looking for the actual validated info on this.
But since we are in the wiki, realm:
quote:The Geography (Greek: Γεωγραφικὴ Ὑφήγησις, Geōgraphikḕ Hyphḗgēsis, lit. "Geographical Guidance"), also known by its Latin names as the Geographia and the Cosmographia, is a gazetteer, an atlas, and a treatise on cartography, compiling the geographical knowledge of the 2nd-century Roman Empire. Originally written by Ptolemy in Greek at Alexandria around AD 150, the work was a revision of a now-lost atlas by Marinus of Tyre using additional Roman and Persian gazetteers and new principles.[1] Its translation into Arabic in the 9th century and Latin in 1406 was highly influential on the geographical knowledge and cartographic traditions of the medieval Caliphate and Renaissance Europe.
quote:Claudius Ptolemy (/ˈtɒləmi/; Greek: Κλαύδιος Πτολεμαῖος, Klaúdios Ptolemaîos, [kláwdios ptolɛmɛ́ːos]; Latin: Claudius Ptolemaeus; c. AD 100 – c. 170)[2] was a Greco-Egyptian writer, known as a mathematician, astronomer, geographer, astrologer, and poet of a single epigram in the Greek Anthology.[3][4] He lived in the city of Alexandria in the Roman province of Egypt, wrote in Koine Greek, and held Roman citizenship.[5] Beyond that, few reliable details of his life are known. His birthplace has been given as Ptolemais Hermiou in the Thebaid in an uncorroborated statement by the 14th-century astronomer Theodore Meliteniotes.[6] This is a very late attestation, however, and there is no other reason to suppose that he ever lived anywhere else than Alexandria,[6] where he died around AD 168.[7]
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: Unfortunately the author did not refer to the original Ptolemy text. So I had to look it up. But from what I understand the author of the classical Greek text is Claudius Ptolemaeus.
The book I quoted clearly says in its title and elsewhere that it's a translation of Ptolemy's Geography. Are you saying the quote isn't in Ptolemy's Geography?
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: It's somewhat odd, because Claudius Ptolemaeus lived at Alexandria.
That he lived near the Tropic of Cancer is implied in that quote when he says "on our side of the equator . . . on the Summer Tropic" and refers to place in Nubia as "places to the south of here". Please clarify what is odd about his residence in the Delta.
1) in and during my posting I had some crossovers, as I was trying to figure things out. So yes, the source is Ptolemy's Geography by the author Claudius Ptolemaeus. But I only found about that later, to who this particular Ptolemy is. Initially it tought it was about/ referring to the Ptolemaic's.
But I like to see what the actual Greek text states. Whether it's semantics and a matter of interpretation, or has a philosophical approach to it. Do I doubt the translation, a bit yes.
2) the odd part is, did he only see people of darker complexion at far South? It appears as odd to me, since he had to cross Siwa etc... I need to read more on his endeavors and journeys. I am trying to understand what gradient of color complexion the text is referring at.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:In 150 AD, the Greek scholar Claudius Ptolemy wrote a textbook entitled the Geography, which earned him the title ‘The Father of Geography’. Drawing on nearly a thousand years of classical learning, Ptolemy’s book provided a list of over 8,000 locations known to Greco-Roman civilization, centered on the Mediterranean. Ptolemy’s world stretches from the Canary Islands in the west to Korea in the east. Iceland is the northernmost point, there is no Pacific or American landmass, and South Africa is joined to Asia. Ptolemy’s book also provided a written description of how to draw world maps, using a grid of intersecting lines known as a graticule. He also invented two map projections. Ironically, no maps drawn by Ptolemy have ever been found; the first ones appeared in Byzantium over a thousand years after his death.
quote:IntroPtolemy (c.100-178) was a hugely important geographer and astronomer working in Ancient Rome. This map takes valuable information from his famous book Geographia. His work informed mapmakers on the size of the Earth, and the co-ordinates for the positions of all the places and features indicated on the map. Until a copy of Geographia was translated from Greek into Latin in 1407, all knowledge of these co-ordinates had been lost in the West. The book created a sensation, as it challenged the very basis of medieval mapmaking – mapmakers before this had based the proportions of countries, not on mathematical calculations, but on the importance of different places - the more important a country was, the bigger it appeared on the map. In fact, many of Ptolemy’s calculations were later proved to be incorrect. However, the introduction of mathematics and the idea of accurate measurement were to change the nature of European mapmaking forever. This copy of Ptolemy's World Map was produced slightly later, in 1482.
A comparison between two Egyptians.At left, Mostafa Hefny, an Egyptian who lives in America and wishes to be classified as black and Jermy Shenouda, a Coptic youtube video maker who calls himself "arealegyptian" and does not want to be called "black" and is angry with "blacks"
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Ish Gabor says: Since the 1980s, CBS reports, Henfy has been fighting to have the U.S. government reclassify him as black, which is how he’s always seen himself. “My classification as a white man takes away my black pride, my black heritage and my strong black identity,” Henfy told the Detroit News.
You notice other modern Egyptians are not beating down the door to follow Hefny- what with a whopping 188 signatures on his petition. Most of the modern Egyptians I have run into rather like the "white" classification - there are benefits- and they can "distance" themselves from being black. They really gain very little from the black classification. There are few "affirmative action" advantages. 'Affirmative Action" has been a dying or minor horse since the 1980s- with minor impact for blacks- as even conservative scholars like Thomas Sowell show, contrary to the bogus propaganda claims of assorted right wingers. One, ex-felon pundit Dinesh Dsouza, has oft declared "The End of Racism" but fails to mention that EEOC has a backlog of thousands of race discrimination cases, a TWO YEAR BACKLOG, or should we say a "BLACKLOG." And credible research shows bias and discrimination based on skin color is still alive and well. See for example Hochschild 2007. The Skin Color Paradox and the American Racial Order. Social FOrces 86, 2. So much for bogus right-wing white propaganda.
Perhaps the difference is that despite a certain amount of racism in America identifying as black in America has more advantages than identifying as black in Egypt. This is probably because most Americans accept two skin colors "black" and "white" as primary identity classification and that people have organized more along these lines. It demonstrates well the political nature of the term "black". And the term "black power" is an example
Posts: 42937 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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A comparison between two Egyptians.At left, Mostafa Hefny, an Egyptian who lives in America and wishes to be classified as black and Jermy Shenouda, a Coptic youtube video maker who calls himself "arealegyptian" and does not want to be called "black" and is angry with "blacks"
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: [QB] Ish Gabor says: Since the 1980s, CBS reports, Henfy has been fighting to have the U.S. government reclassify him as black, which is how he’s always seen himself. “My classification as a white man takes away my black pride, my black heritage and my strong black identity,” Henfy told the Detroit News.
You notice other modern Egyptians are not beating down the door to follow Hefny- what with a whopping 188 signatures on his petition. Most of the modern Egyptians I have run into rather like the "white" classification - there are benefits- and they can "distance" themselves from being black. They really gain very little from the black classification. There are few "affirmative action" advantages. 'Affirmative Action" has been a dying or minor horse since the 1980s- with minor impact for blacks- as even conservative scholars like Thomas Sowell show, contrary to the bogus propaganda claims of assorted right wingers. One, ex-felon pundit Dinesh Dsouza, has oft declared "The End of Racism" but fails to mention that EEOC has a backlog of thousands of race discrimination cases, a TWO YEAR BACKLOG, or should we say a "BLACKLOG." And credible research shows bias and discrimination based on skin color is still alive and well. See for example Hochschild 2007. The Skin Color Paradox and the American Racial Order. Social FOrces 86, 2. So much for bogus right-wing white propaganda.
Perhaps the difference is that despite a certain amount of racism in America identifying as black in America has more advantages than identifying as black in Egypt. This is probably because most Americans accept two skin colors "black" and "white" as primary identity classification and that people have organized more along these lines.
arealegyptian is mentally disturbed, I had a conversation with him. Posted a few sources here and there. And he retrieved. His thing is that African Americans claim Egyptian history. The ironic pat is that eurocentrism started out as claiming a white Egypt, by folks from the North. Then Afrocentrism started to counteract, saying no, it is African and black.
And, yep I have heard on instances where darker Egyptians have been discriminated, in Egypt. Obviously this wasn't at the South, but more so in Northern parts.
By the way at Luxor you'll see people in this "caramel complexion" and in darker hues.
I was at Luxor, and the captain of a boat looked like a Hollifield twin. Except for having somewhat more narrower features.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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This is why wikipedia is useful. One easily discovers that Claudius Ptolemaeus AD 100 – c. 170 is the latin version of "Claudius Ptolemy" and the man is often referred to by his just his last name Ptolemy. When you see Ptolemy I with the roman numeral "I" after it, that is when it is referring to the a Macedonian king of Egypt a few hundred years prior
wikipedia:
Ptolemaeus (Πτολεμαῖος – Ptolemaios) is a Greek name. It occurs once in Greek mythology, and is of Homeric form.[8] It was common among the Macedonian upper class at the time of Alexander the Great, and there were several of this name among Alexander's army, one of whom made himself King of Egypt in 323 BC: Ptolemy I Soter. All the kings after him, until Egypt became a Roman province in 30 BC, were also Ptolemies.
This reads peculiar.
quote:Beyond his being considered a member of Alexandria's Greek society, few details of Ptolemy's life are known. He wrote in Ancient Greek; some scholars have concluded that Ptolemy was a Greek, and others, a Hellenized Egyptian. He was often known in later Arabic sources as "the Upper Egyptian", suggesting that he may have had origins in southern Egypt. Ptolemy is also known to have used Babylonian astronomical data.
quote:We know very little of Ptolemy's life. He made astronomical observations from Alexandria in Egypt during the years AD 127-41. In fact the first observation which we can date exactly was made by Ptolemy on 26 March 127 while the last was made on 2 February 141. It was claimed by Theodore Meliteniotes in around 1360 that Ptolemy was born in Hermiou (which is in Upper Egypt rather than Lower Egypt where Alexandria is situated) but since this claim first appears more than one thousand years after Ptolemy lived, it must be treated as relatively unlikely to be true. In fact there is no evidence that Ptolemy was ever anywhere other than Alexandria.
posted
arealegyptian is mentally disturbed, I had a conversation with him. Posted a few sources here and there. And he retrieved. His thing is that African Americans claim Egyptian history. The ironic pat is that eurocentrism started out as claiming a white Egypt, by folks from the North. Then Afrocentrism started to counteract, saying no, it is African and black.
And, yep I have heard on instances where darker Egyptians have been discriminated, in Egypt. Obviously this wasn't at the South, but more so in Northern parts.
Mentally disturbed sounds about right. And Black Americans don't have to "claim" any Egyptian history. They claim AFRICAN history, and Egypt is an integral part of that history. It is laughable to hear some modern Egyptians act as if ancient Egyptians somehow sprang up spontaneously out of thin air or be like space aliens suddenly emerging from the Nile. They talk about history and heritage but want to airbrush that same "heritage" away because -gasp- there may be "blacks" in it. Same with their pious denials to be "beyond race" but as soon as anything African shows up they want to "distance" themselves. These are some of the same people talking bout those incompetent Africans when they let their asses get repeatedly kicked by the small Israeli state.
^^Mystical Egyptian springing spontaneously from the Nile
Ad today there is a clear pattern of discrimination against darker skinned folk- its not only refugees, but native Egyptians who are "too black". hence application of the rule- If you black, get back.
Black Egyptians decry daily racism Non-Arab Africans say they are routine victims of discrimination by officials and on the street. Black refugees fall into a legal grey area where the government has no obligation to provide for them [AFP] By Max Siegelbaum
Cairo, Egypt - When Mohamed Ahmed Mohamed first started receiving calls on his mobile phone from an unknown number telling him to leave Egypt, he ignored them.
But when the threats against the Sudanese asylum-seeker increased and he began to receive emails and Facebook posts with the same message - "Get out of the country" - he grew nervous.
A member of one of Sudan's multitude of opposition groups, Mohamed tracked the messages back to a Sudanese embassy official - and took his concerns to the police. But he says the duty officer's response was terse - "Why should I believe you?". Other police stations also dismissed his fears.
"No one helps us. They never do," Mohamed said.
Black, non-Arab Africans say the case reveals long-standing racism that threatens the security and livelihoods of Egypt's sizeable sub-Saharan population. While refugees in the country face an overburdened and highly bureaucratic asylum system and aid organisations are underfunded and ill equipped to help them, non-Arab refugees face much more serious problems.
"You can be here 15 years as a recognised refugee and not for a moment of that will you ever be recognised legally or have a home," said Christopher Eades, director of legal programming at AMERA, a British NGO for refugees.
Aid workers believe sub-Saharan refugees are treated by different informal rules than those of Arab origin - excluded from schools, facing hurdles opening businesses and finding work, and hampered in legal cases.
Refugee hurdles
Lengthy UNHCR registration processes mean most refugees in Egypt must remain in the country without identification or any means of subsistence for at least three years.
They are forced into the dark economy, working illegally at cafes, on construction sites, and in other manual jobs where abuse is routine and they have little protection in law. Al Jazeera talks to Amnesty about abuse claims in Egypt
"Even if you're a recognised refugee, and you have a blue card, you have no right to medical treatment, no right to education, no right to work," Eades said.
As far as the state is concerned, the refugees fall into a legal grey area where the government has no obligation to provide for them.
"Egypt is part of the Arab world, and any place in the Arab world is your home," said Reda Sada El-Hafnawy, a member of the Shura Council's Human Rights Committee and the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood. "They are welcomed but we can't put them under the protection of Egyptian law."
El-Hafnawy insists: "There is no racism in Egypt, so if there's abuse, it's from the absence of the law."
But aid workers and community organisers say otherwise - and believe not all refugees are created equal.
"When there was an influx of African refugees, there was no attention from the NGOs," said Yagoub Hamdan a Sudanese refugee and community outreach leader at AMERA.
However, when Syrians began pouring into the country in late 2012, the UN set up mobile stations throughout Cairo and the rest of the country, Hamdan pointed out.
"Why did they do that for Syrians when we had the same problem?"
Hamdan and other community organisers say Islamic aid organisations provide ample support to Syrians and Libyans, but rarely to non-Arab Africans.
Christian organisations
Lack of state support means non-Arab African refugees are forced to turn towards smaller NGOs and Christian organisations.
Most Egyptians don't consider themselves African.
-Nada Zeitoun, Nubian filmmaker
But lack of funding - and the hazards of operating in a climate often hostile towards Christians - greatly limits the ability of these groups to function effectively.
"We have always been told there is no space in Egyptian schools, they are overcrowded. Now we have Iraqi and Syrians, and they find a place in these schools," said an Italian priest working at a Catholic organisation who requested anonymity.
"Africans face deep political racism, and as an organisation, we get no help from the Egyptian state."
Racism faced by black Africans can also be found in politics, he added. When meeting with their Egyptian counterparts, black African embassy officials are often "told that being black, they have to keep a distance".
'Egyptians are not African'
This discrimination finds its was onto the street, and black Egyptians say they encounter constant social hurdles.
Nada Zeitoun, a Nubian filmmaker from the upper Egypt city of Aswan, was recently denied service at a pharmacy in central Cairo because the pharmacist said he "didn't accept money from black hands".
Zeitoun exposed the incident on social media and eventually the pharmacist was fired, but she says it was just one example of a broader culture of racism.
"Most Egyptians don't consider themselves African," she said.
Although Nubians are among the first inhabitants of what is now considered modern Egypt, "[Egyptian people] don't believe we have a huge provenance of Nubian people."
Zeitoun adds: "Even [deposed President Mohammed] Morsi thinks we are foreigners."
Several weeks after the incident, Zeitoun says she received a call from one of the owners of the pharmacy.
He told her: "I'm sorry, [the pharmacist] didn't know you were Egyptian. He thought you were an African refugee."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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"They claim AFRICAN history, and Egypt is an integral part of that history."
My bad Zarahan, you're correct. It's part of Africana curriculum.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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"Aid workers believe sub-Saharan refugees are treated by different informal rules than those of Arab origin - excluded from schools, facing hurdles opening businesses and finding work, and hampered in legal cases."
I am not sure if that is necessarily the case, .... But my focus was more on indigenous dark complected Egyptians from way-back, not recent immigrants.
I know Syrian refugees received the same kind of treatment. So they too had flee to Europe. The case you described could be because of xenophobia.
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