30/04/2015 "As far as I see it, all this obsession and refusal to accept that the ancient Egyptians were a mixed race, not all Blacks as they claim, has a psychological foundation in most Afro people's deep and perhaps also unconscious inferiority complex as to white people.
They carry a chip on their shoulder and must try to grasp whatever they can to bolster their self-esteem at any price."
22/04/2015 “Let's not forget that the ancient Egyptians themselves when in wall paintings of tombs tried to depict the "four races' of mankind made a clear difference between them and the Black Sudanese with crinkly hair, facial features and very dark skin.In some Afrocentrist pages this is falsified depicting both the Egyptians and Sudanese as equally very dark skinned people, which is dishonest.
You will find in the internet papers on this subject by Yurco and Macy Roth that you may find helpful.”
I replied: 23/04/2015 “You mentioned that in some "Afrocentrist pages this image is falsified depicting both the Egyptians and Sudanese as equally very dark-skinned people, which is dishonest." It might be interesting for you to read the attached pages written by American, Charles Grantham from the Kemetic Institute in Chicago. He pursued Frank Yurco at the Field Museum over Yurco's claim that the images of the Nubians and Egyptians in the tomb of Ramesses III were as different as in the tomb of Sety I. As you can see from the attached image of the Egyptians in the tomb, Yurco's claim was not true.”
“Could you comment on the Nubians and Egyptians being depicted as virtually the same in the tomb of Ramesses III?”
Professor of Egyptology 23/04/2015 “I don't have handy that image, but even if it were so, it can be explained as a Black ancient Egyptian artist depicting all Egyptians as himself, the ancients would not mind since I repeat, racism is a modern construction, but the Afrocentrists very carefully avoid mentioning other images like that of the Sety I location with an entirely different perception.
I would say that arguing these points with Afrocentrists is like having a debate with evangelists or mormons or muslims, to them is like an article of faith that has to be defended at all cost. No point in going on endlessly wasting one's time.”
“ I find it very difficult to accept Yurco's slander in the book you sent me, he was probably exasperated by the trickery and close-mindedness of the Afrocentrist he dealt with, that is why he probably tried to avoid him, not out of any fear of the 'truth', but he was an honest egyptologist with a good reputation, in spite of the occasional mistake he could make like anyone else.”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
In case you're unaware of the incident referred to, it's described in The Unwrapping of Egyptology , chapter 3 of Charles Grantham'sThe Battle for Kemet:
"In 1998, after reading Yurco’s “Two Tomb-Wall Painted Reliefs of Rameses III and Sety I and Ancient Nile Valley Population Diversity” in which he proclaimed that the “four races of man” pastiche used by many African-centred writers to demonstrate that the ancient Egyptians viewed themselves as a black people, is based on a nineteenth century copy that is incorrect, I informed Yurco that not only had I been in the tomb of Ramesses III but that I personally photographed the wall painting. He seemed somewhat surprised at the time. I invited him to view the photos at a training session for volunteers that I was conducting the following day at the Field Museum of Natural History . He did not show. Although we would occasionally see one another at the museum , nothing more was said about his article or my photographs, that is until the museum conducted another volunteer training session for the new Cleopatra exhibit which opened in October 2001. I saw Yurco at the first session and decided then and there that I would give him a copy of “The Unwrapping of Egyptology”, which was first published in the Kemetic Voice in 1999. The following week I did just that. I personally handed him a copy of the Kemetic Voice and asked him to read the article and to give me feedback. Amiably, he agreed. However, he did not show for the final training session. I do not know whether my article had anything to do with his absence, but I was reminded of the first time I tried to present him with this information in 1998.
Finally an opportunity presented itself during a walk-through of the Cleopatra exhibit. As I stood near the exit of the exhibit, I saw Yurco explaining certain aspects of the exhibit to a group of volunteers. I positioned myself so that it was virtually impossible for him to pass without seeing me. To my amazement, Yurco scurried right past me without uttering one word. I literally ran after him. Fortunately, there were two other members of the Kemetic Institute present to witness this encounter. When I caught Yurco and asked him what he thought about the article, the first thing he said was “I still maintain that it is a pastiche.” It was obvious from his statement that he had read the article. I again agreed with him on that point and pressed him further with regard to the contents of the pastiche and my photographs. In other words, were the ancient Egyptians as depicted in the tomb of Ramesses III shown in the same skin colour and dress as the Kushites?
Still walking hurriedly and looking quite ill at ease Yurco finally conceded that the depiction of the ancient Egyptians in the tomb of Ramesses III shows them to have the same black skin colour and dress as the Kushites. When asked if this was a valid representation of the ancient Egyptians, Yurco again conceded"(p34).
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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quote: Dear Paul, Those figures in the Lepsius Erganzungsband, pl. 48 are actually not Lepsius' work, but a re-edition done in 1913, as I showed in my article in Egypt in Africa (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1997). To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts between these figures were garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's tomb and in Ramesses III's tomb showed the Egyptians and the Kushites as distinctly different. Also, the hieroglyphs on the real walls are distributed between each of the four figures depicting each type. You can now view the real photographs of both the Sety I and Ramesses III walls in Hornung's volumes on the Valley of the Kings. I have been inside both tombs myself and have seen these scenes and their texts, and on the basis of this, the depiction in the Erganzungsband is not a real depiction of what is on the walls but rather a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the process. It is unfortunate that so many people have depended on this depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs shows that patently it is not reality.
quote: Dear Paul, Those figures in the Lepsius Erganzungsband, pl. 48 are actually not Lepsius' work, but a re-edition done in 1913, as I showed in my article in Egypt in Africa (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1997). To make matters worse, the hieroglyph texts between these figures were garbled. The original scenes both in Sety I's tomb and in Ramesses III's tomb showed the Egyptians and the Kushites as distinctly different. Also, the hieroglyphs on the real walls are distributed between each of the four figures depicting each type. You can now view the real photographs of both the Sety I and Ramesses III walls in Hornung's volumes on the Valley of the Kings. I have been inside both tombs myself and have seen these scenes and their texts, and on the basis of this, the depiction in the Erganzungsband is not a real depiction of what is on the walls but rather a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the process. It is unfortunate that so many people have depended on this depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs shows that patently it is not reality.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
I'm not sure what the late Mr. Yurco was trying to pull off here. Erganzungsband only means supplement and it contains artwork from the very artists Lepsius commissioned in his lifetime. The pieces are ones Lepsius himself didn't get to publish before his death.
There's no hieroglyphic "garbling" nor are the "Egyptians and Kushites" on Ramesses III's tomb wall distinct in any way less than a trained detailist would notice.
To that effect, I submit that the Book of Gates 4:5 scene 30 as depicted in Rameses III tomb (KV11f), besides displaying not one phenotypical distinguishing feature, has RT RMT and NHHSW dressed precisely the same down to the minutest detail.
They only differ in that the RT RMT sport earrings and their fabric kilt is form fitting. The NHHSW have nothing attached to their ears and their fabric kilt is loose, hanging to the same level as the skin kilt.
Yurco makes pretend he doesn't know Lepsius' artist was rendering a condensation. He goes on about real walls real photos as if fake walls and fake photos are all that were available before Hornung.
Yurco's poor recall of the KV11f scene, if indeed he ever entered KV11f instead of KV11j, is no excuse for a professional to claim Lepsius' artist's deliberate condensation amounts to no more than "a pastische, arranged from Lepsius' notes and garbled in the process."
His statement "It is unfortunate that so many people have depended on this depiction as reality, when a look at the walls in both tombs shows that patently it is not reality." is only applicable to himself and what he's just written in his letter to Paul.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: [QB] ...same professor who wrote this....
30/04/2015 "As far as I see it, all this obsession and refusal to accept that the ancient Egyptians were a mixed race, not all Blacks as they claim, has a psychological foundation in most Afro people's deep and perhaps also unconscious inferiority complex as to white people.
They carry a chip on their shoulder and must try to grasp whatever they can to bolster their self-esteem at any price."
How can anyone put this in context, an answer to some question but the question not shown ?
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: [QB] ...same professor who wrote this....
30/04/2015 "As far as I see it, all this obsession and refusal to accept that the ancient Egyptians were a mixed race, not all Blacks as they claim, has a psychological foundation in most Afro people's deep and perhaps also unconscious inferiority complex as to white people.
They carry a chip on their shoulder and must try to grasp whatever they can to bolster their self-esteem at any price."
posted
What's with all this nonsense about ancient Egypt being 'mixed raced'? What is it based on? The People in the North may have been 'mixed-raced', but the majority of ancient Egypt's population was concentrated in Upper Egypt between Aswan and Luxor, so I have to dismiss this assertion immediately.
Butzer’s (1976) figures demonstrate that throughout the dynastic period the Egyptian population numbers were denser between Aswan and Qift, and between the Faiyum and the head of the Delta. The Delta and the southern wide floodplain were more sparsely populated.
Maybe we should find out what proportion of ancient Greece was 'mixed-raced' and insist that Greece be described as 'mixed-raced', if they insist on playing this game. Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
@Sudanaiya Interesting. In your view, would most indigenous ancient Egyptians today be considered 'black' in the US and elsewhere in the West?
quote: What's with all this nonsense about ancient Egypt being 'mixed raced'? What is it based on? The People in the North may have been 'mixed-raced', but the majority of ancient Egypt's population was concentrated in Upper Egypt between Aswan and Luxor, so I have to dismiss this assertion immediately.
quote: There's no hieroglyphic "garbling" nor are the "Egyptians and Kushites" on Ramesses III's tomb wall distinct in any way less than a trained detailist would notice.
Indeed, one of the Egyptologists I'm in touch with said:
28/08/2014
quote: The Ramses III tomb image of the four peoples of humankind in the afterlife composition we call the Book of Gates is an extremely important test-case in the debate over ethnicity/race in ancient Egypt: on the one side, Egyptologists like Frank Yurco could argue fairly that most of the (rather few) detailed coloured versions of the composition do have different colours for the nHsyw “Nile Valley Nubians” and rmT “people” (to be understood presumably as “people of Egypt”; on the other hand, quite clearly the artists (draughtsmen and sculptors as well as painters) of the Ramses III tomb did not make that difference, and Egyptologists have failed to address this or even admit its veracity – this was the focus of dispute between Yurco and Charles Grantham, but there is no ambiguity that I can see: the caption rmT “people” is very clear (it reads from left to right, even though the hieroglyphs face right and would normally read right to left: this “reverse writing” seems to be an occasional feature of more sacred compositions as it is found on some early ritual papyri too).
I hope that is useful – the pages you scanned and sent me from Charles Grantham made the point well.
All the very best, XXX
Regarding the Charles Grantham-Yurco incident, the Egyptologist had previously stated:
17/12/2013
quote: very many thanks, these pages are very important for me to see, as it is such a crucial point and it is extremely important always to document these moments in print – the danger is that other Egyptologists will dismiss the encounter as a personal moment of weakness by Yurco, and that they will not acknowledge the structural impersonal significance of that encounter as revealing underlying mind-sets – hopefully, the publication of one instance will be reinforced by others, and it will be possible to publish a broader summary in the way that Edward Said managed to do for European misappropriations of the ‘Orient’ – thank you again, and a very Happy Christmas and New Year,
quote:Originally posted by sudaniya: What's with all this nonsense about ancient Egypt being 'mixed raced'? What is it based on? The People in the North may have been 'mixed-raced', but the majority of ancient Egypt's population was concentrated in Upper Egypt between Aswan and Luxor, so I have to dismiss this assertion immediately.
Butzer’s (1976) figures demonstrate that throughout the dynastic period the Egyptian population numbers were denser between Aswan and Qift, and between the Faiyum and the head of the Delta. The Delta and the southern wide floodplain were more sparsely populated.
Maybe we should find out what proportion of ancient Greece was 'mixed-raced' and insist that Greece be described as 'mixed-raced', if they insist on playing this game.
What "they" claim is actually that people from the South are the mixed ones. And coastal populations from the North are "pure". Pure Eurasians/ Caucasoids, who entered Africa at different stages in history, this depends on the convenience.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: @Sudanaiya Interesting. In your view, would most indigenous ancient Egyptians today be considered 'black' in the US and elsewhere in the West?
quote: What's with all this nonsense about ancient Egypt being 'mixed raced'? What is it based on? The People in the North may have been 'mixed-raced', but the majority of ancient Egypt's population was concentrated in Upper Egypt between Aswan and Luxor, so I have to dismiss this assertion immediately.
What's so 'interesting' about what I said? I know the western media would have you believe that Northern Sudanese deny their blackness and that we have race wars, when this is actually a gross and insulting simplification of dynamics in Sudan. Our President repudiated the notion that we deny our blackness.
Not only could the ancient Egyptians be clearly identified as black in any place on earth, their modern descendants in Luxor, Esna, Edfu, Kom Ombo, the Siwa Oasis and the Red Sea coast [admixed with foreigners as they are] can still be described as black.
To be clear, I don't support Bashir and I recognize that he actually did support the Baggara Arabs against the Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa tribes, but it wasn't a race war.
Posts: 1568 | From: Pluto | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Really not sure why you felt the need to reference what's happened in Sudan. I wondered because I wasn't sure what to make of some of your previous comments regarding my standpoint.
But as it happens, I asked a friend (black African) who'd worked in Khartoum for a number of years whether the northern Sudanese would be regarded as black in the US, and he said:
quote: I would say yes that in American terms most northern Sudanese would be regarded as black in America. There are some - like two of the landlords that I had when I lived there - that wouldn't because they basically look like Egyptians and the Coptics too fall into that same boat of looking like Egyptians. Actually in the north I guess there is an upper class elite that are basically Arabs or in some cases Greek but otherwise most of the rank and file look like and would be called black...and I suspect that doesn't go down so well with some of them!
quote: How can anyone put this in context, an answer to some question but the question not shown ?
Context?
Am I reading this right?
Lioness, are you trying to spin this Egyptologist's bigoted response as somehow my misrepresentation?
They weren't answering a specific question, but commenting on the debate over the racial backgrounds of the Egyptians.
Their reply is offensive and would be considered so in the reality of life offline.
"As far as I see it, all this obsession and refusal to accept that the ancient Egyptians were a mixed race, not all Blacks as they claim, has a psychological foundation in most Afro people's deep and perhaps also unconscious inferiority complex as to white people.
They carry a chip on their shoulder and must try to grasp whatever they can to bolster their self-esteem at any price."
^^^ This is offesive in any context to me
However you are still not presenting it properly or fairly, that's a problem. That should be a basic given, what was said before a reply. Maybe you are trying to hide this for some reason.
Also I would like to know is this a private email correspondance to the professor of yours or is it from some other source?
In America it's a free country to an extent. You have the right to hate white people or black people and write about it publically.
If one expresses these things publically one is more accountable to to society. If people have these views privately it is somewhat disturbing but it depends on if it effects what they do publically or not.
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: Amun-ra sez:
quote: It's based on tropicals redacted(aka Swenet). Everything he/she writes is fake.
You're completely nuts.
HHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
This comment betrays you again.
It's obvious for most people that anybody can invent anything on the internet. So if any of your posts were true, you wouldn't react like it's such a big deal people not believing the crap you post.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012
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posted
^^Two Egyptsearch nutjobs. I'll ignore Amun, who thinks Swenet and I are the same person...
But for Lioness...please, get real.
quote: However you are still not presenting it properly or fairly, that's a problem. That should be a basic given, what was said before a reply. Maybe you are trying to hide this for some reason.
Also I would like to know is this a private email correspondance to the professor of yours or is it from some other source?
It's private e-mail correspondence and I've already told you that it was a comment on the general Egyptian race debate, not an answer to a specific question.
The 'discussion' they and I had would cover, I estimate, maybe 20 sides of A4, if not more.
But you're still trying to spin it as if I'm engaging in some sort of subterfuge.
quote: If people have these views privately it is somewhat disturbing but it depends on if it effects what they do publically or not.
You really think this person's going to give a fair conclusion to their students on the Egyptian race question?
WTF?!
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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quote: How can anyone put this in context, an answer to some question but the question not shown ?
Context?
Am I reading this right?
Lioness, are you trying to spin this Egyptologist's bigoted response as somehow my misrepresentation?
They weren't answering a specific question, but commenting on the debate over the racial backgrounds of the Egyptians.
Their reply is offensive and would be considered so in the reality of life offline.
"As far as I see it, all this obsession and refusal to accept that the ancient Egyptians were a mixed race, not all Blacks as they claim, has a psychological foundation in most Afro people's deep and perhaps also unconscious inferiority complex as to white people.
They carry a chip on their shoulder and must try to grasp whatever they can to bolster their self-esteem at any price."
^^^ This is offesive in any context to me
However you are still not presenting it properly or fairly, that's a problem. That should be a basic given, what was said before a reply. Maybe you are trying to hide this for some reason.
Also I would like to know is this a private email correspondance to the professor of yours or is it from some other source?
In America it's a free country to an extent. You have the right to hate white people or black people and write about it publically.
If one expresses these things publically one is more accountable to to society. If people have these views privately it is somewhat disturbing but it depends on if it effects what they do publically or not.
If that is the case, one should not try to come off as being in a "natural position", while behind the screen expressing hate. That text expresses hate on many levels. Not one word about eurocentrism btw. lol
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: tropicals redacted = fake
You try to restricted blacks, by putting them in a box. This is a typical eurocentric ideology.
Posts: 22235 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: [QB] ...same professor who wrote this....
30/04/2015 "As far as I see it, all this obsession and refusal to accept that the ancient Egyptians were a mixed race, not all Blacks as they claim, has a psychological foundation in most Afro people's deep and perhaps also unconscious inferiority complex as to white people.
They carry a chip on their shoulder and must try to grasp whatever they can to bolster their self-esteem at any price."
quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
You really think this person's going to give a fair conclusion to their students on the Egyptian race question?
tropicals do you think the professor should be
a) fired
b) reprimanded privately by his superiors at the university
c) suspended for a period
d) have his name and comments published in a university publication that students would see
e) have his name and comments published in a book about racism in contemporary academia or Egyptology
f) be threatened privately that he is being watched and if he gets out of line the comments will be made public
g) have his comments but not his name published in a book about racism in contemporary academia or Egyptology
h) just discussed about anonymously here
Posts: 42935 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: @Sudanaiya Interesting. In your view, would most indigenous ancient Egyptians today be considered 'black' in the US and elsewhere in the West?
quote: What's with all this nonsense about ancient Egypt being 'mixed raced'? What is it based on? The People in the North may have been 'mixed-raced', but the majority of ancient Egypt's population was concentrated in Upper Egypt between Aswan and Luxor, so I have to dismiss this assertion immediately.
What's so 'interesting' about what I said? I know the western media would have you believe that Northern Sudanese deny their blackness and that we have race wars, when this is actually a gross and insulting simplification of dynamics in Sudan. Our President repudiated the notion that we deny our blackness.
Not only could the ancient Egyptians be clearly identified as black in any place on earth, their modern descendants in Luxor, Esna, Edfu, Kom Ombo, the Siwa Oasis and the Red Sea coast [admixed with foreigners as they are] can still be described as black.
To be clear, I don't support Bashir and I recognize that he actually did support the Baggara Arabs against the Fur, Masalit and Zaghawa tribes, but it wasn't a race war. [/qb]
There is nothing "interesting" about it, well, not to most of us anyway. What he's trying to do is drum up support for his deceptive use of racial terminology to vindicate himself after a discussion I had with him elsewhere. By getting you and others to say certain things, he's basically trying to redeem his deceptive way of using 'black' and the way he slanders academics (since some people criticized him for publishing people's emails in the other thread).
That's what all his recent threads are about: damage control.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
@Lioness None of the above...if I do anything with these e-mails, I'll self-publish and people, offline in the real world where common sense and standards of decency still prevail, can make up their own minds when they read the dialogues.
quote: tropicals do you think the professor should be
a) fired
b) reprimanded privately by his superiors at the university
c) suspended for a period
d) have his name and comments published in a university publication that students would see
e) have his name and comments published in a book about racism in contemporary academia or Egyptology
f) be threatened privately that he is being watched and if he gets out of line the comments will be made public
g) have his comments but not his name published in a book about racism in contemporary academia or Egyptology
posted
^ Gee, and not a word from Lioness or Swenet/Sidney Anson on the academic's comments in the OP.
Funny that they seem to be more pissy with me, than with the Egyptologist's offensive language and bias.
Damage control? You're sounding hurt, Sid. As well as the support from academics and others behind the scenes, there are people here on ES now validating my efforts.
And there you go again, using that word 'slander'. This is the very same person that misrepresented and lied about my interactions with Egyptologists, saying that I slandered them if they didn't agree with me that the ancient Egyptians were black. This is the very same person who said that I exhibited "pedo-ish" behaviour...and the little flip-flopping inadequate, the squirming little worm, says that I slander???
Remember this Swenet/Sidney Anson/Willy Emblem:
quote:
“Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Slander??? Just grow up.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
I have no reason to respond to the academic in the OP. I know they exist and I know you're posting this to clean up your image (strange, because you were criticized for doing things you're conveniently leaving out). Besides, much of the stuff you're using against him you probably got from me (which you vehemently lied about earlier). So what else is new?
Don't you think it's time to leave all your lies behind? You got angry with Hawass because he said that modern day 'blacks' in Egypt who descended from the pharaohs don't necessarily look like Africans elsewhere on the continent. You then started bad mouthing Keita for a similar reason. I then criticized your deceptive use of 'black', which is a clumsy knock off of the US use of the term. You do this to deliberately hide and marginalize Saharan diversity as we've seen earlier in the conversation I posted.
Obfuscating what you really mean with the term and then trying to make it seem others mean the same thing as you.. don't you think that's a tad bit deceptive and fully in line with the compulsive liar I've already proven you to be?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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Whatever hurt sh1t you've got going on in your head, keep it to yourself, I can't help you with it.
You mischaracterize, misrepresent and yes, lie. You're a known liar, with a huge yet fragile ego. A flip-flopping egotist who gets his validation from unfiltered online 'friends'.
quote: I have no reason to respond to the academic in the OP. I know they exist, and much of the stuff you're using against him you got from me. So what else is new?
You don't want to respond to the academic because his comments validate what I'm doing-- and you're approach is to undermine my efforts. Out of a grudge.
Much of what I'm using against him is from you? Extraordinary. I have an MA in African Studies from SOAS...like I can't read and conduct independent research, and haven't had correspondence with others on and offline. Like I didn't study an online Egyptology course. Like I don't live in London and have access to a range of libraries and museums. An academic let me borrow Charles Grantham's book, mailing it to me, and that's where the text/reference upthread comes from. From memory, I even posted the content here on ES before I had PM contact with you.
Stop lying.
quote:Don't you think it's time to leave all your lies behind? You got angry with Hawass because he said that 'blacks' in Egypt who descended from the pharaohs didn't necessarily look like Africans elsewhere on the continent. You then started bad mouthing Keita. I then criticized your deceptive use of 'black'.
Obfuscating what you really mean with the term and then trying to make it seem others mean the same thing as you.. don't you think that's a tad bit deceptive and fully in line with the liar I've already proven you to be?
You're idiotic. A flip-flopping time waster with a dummy tabloid predilection for the word 'slander'.
I've never contacted Zahi Hawass, and I don't remember getting angry about what that buffoon said.
And regarding Shomarka Keita, I disagreed with his stance on the (non)use of the term 'black'. You 'forget' that I defended him against Larry Owens when he called Keita's work "sh1t" and said that he was a "super-Africanist" with "an axe to grind." But you don't want to mention that, do you? Doesn't fit your narrative.
You're thoroughly dishonest in your interactions, and I don't want to waste anymore time arguing with some needy, attention-seeking fantasist.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
Hang on, is he trolling me? Feels like he and Lioness are trying to derail the thread, and make it more about me than bias in academia.
Anyway...
Regarding the Four races depiction...
Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:
Noticing some differences between the merenpath second glyph (?) and the Rameses second glyph (T rope). Not sure what this means:
Sidney Anson/Swenet replied:
quote: Its astonishing, that this b!tch just can't cope with the idea that Egyptians were depicted in this manner. It's mind boggling, how someone can be so terrified by the possibility, that the Egyptians actually did this, that they will desperately latch onto every oppertunity to descredit and falsify anything that hints at the Egyptians thinking of themselves as alligned with fellow black Africans .
Yes, if there is one thing one can say that has been consistent about Lioness, it is that she has always been uncomfortable with Ancient Egyptians saying they're unapologetically African. Her anxieties have also reared their ugly heads when the texts accompanying the images discussed here, were brought to her attention, and those who have seen her angsts come out when I included that text in my Youtube video, know this.
I can honestly and gladly say that I'm done going back and forth on this forum with those wackjobs. Should've made this decision a long time ago.
posted
Yesterday, I put the following to Swenet/Sidney Anson three times, when he obfuscated on whether Somalis and Ethiopians are regarded as 'black'--there was no response:
quote: @Swenet (third attempt)
What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
Let's see if he responds and if so, what he says.
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
All these opinionated rants, but no link or evidence to prove any of his accusations. Any 4 year old can point fingers and raise make angry gestures. Where is your evidence, Carlos Coke?
I have, what? Two dozen worth of thread pages with citations showing your lies and foul behind the scenes activities. I have on record your admission to blackmailing academics, etc. That's the difference between me and you. You're all talk.
We've seen how you manipulated Kemp's citation to slander him. So all that indignation about being falsely accused is transparent to the people who remember that incident. Carlos Oliver Coke thinks being the loudest and making the most unsubstantiated claims equals having credibility.
Let's get down to the specifics, shall we? Let's see who the compulsive liar is. We should start with the Kemp quote you deliberately tampered with to cast him in a bad light. Would you say that's slander, Carlos Oliver Coke, or nah?
quote:I have on record your admission to blackmailing academics, etc
Hahahahahahaha!
Stupid little boy!
--------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
-------------------------------------
“Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
Why did you cut up the most relevant parts of this Kemp quote, and would you say that's slander, Carlos Oliver Coke? Am I lying Carlos? Let's get to the bottom of this, right now. Then, we can look at the other examples of your slander.
quote:you credit me with more knowledge and understanding of the subject than I have.
Simply because of the geographical position of the Nile Valley, intuitively one would expect a shading from north to south of genetic mix. But what does that mean? Ancient Egypt developed from a foundation of settled, farming communities whose way of life and, more particularly, style of farming originated in the Near East where it already had two or three thousand years of development behind it. Was this way of life brought by people or was it a set of practices that were adopted by indigenous communities? Its beginnings in Egypt are themselves not well documented. An early predynastic delta site, Tell el-Fara'in, has produced pottery that the experts say is Palestinian and it seems to belong to a northern culture that, in terms of its material culture, was somewhat separate from the south. But pots are not people, nor are they ideas, and so the significance remains obscure. --Kemp
What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
--------------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
Do you think I'm going to play this childish back and forth game? You deny the slander charge? No problem. I'll let the people decide.
So no, you don't have to answer. What matters to me is that people read it. You call me a liar? OW hell naw. Lol.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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quote: Do you think I'm going to play this childish back and forth game? You deny the slander charge? No problem. I'll let the people decide.
So no, you don't have to answer. What matters to me is that people read it. You call me a liar? OW hell naw. Lol.
@Swenet/Sidney Anson ( seventh attempt )
What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
--------------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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posted
Notice how he refuses to comment on the incident where he tampered with Kemp's words. I bet that also isn't slander to him. All the poor guy can do is spam his irrelevant questions to hide the embarrassing incident.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^Bullshit. Nothing was excluded that impacted on the meaning of Kemp's reply. But to avoid stupid accusations of quote-mining, if I write this up, whole emails will be published.
Now, notice how he refuses to address this...
@Swenet/Sidney Anson (eighth attempt )
What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
--------------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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quote:Nothing was excluded that impacted on the meaning of Kemp's reply. But to avoid stupid accusations of quote-mining, if I write this up, whole emails will be published.
"Quote mining"? "Accusations"? "if I write this up". "Nothing that impacted the meaning of the reply". HAHAHAHA. He still thinks he can come back from this. Your credibility is DONE DONE DONE. Do you really think the academic world is going to be forgiving? You sick, sick, heap of festering fungus. Lol!
Can you also point out where I was lying or wrongly accused you of slander, blackmail, breaches of privacy and breaches of confidentiality? (*grabs popcorn*)
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
--------------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
Do you realize people reading this are going to look at your evasiveness and take that as a sign that you have something to hide? Don't insult their intelligence by spamming irrelevant questions, Carlos. You're not fooling anyone. Let's look at your allegations and examine them one by one. Stop running.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
^These questions are irrelevant apparently...well, at least your buddy Brandon Pilcher/Nodnarb addressed them:
quote: quote: Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egyptian and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
Brandon Pilcher said: For what it's worth, last year I made a mod for the game Age of Mythology that gave its ancient Egyptian characters darker skin. You can see it and the attached comments panel here. I did not modify the characters' facial features, nor did I invoke obvious racially loaded language like "black" or "African" in my description. That still didn't stop commentators from complaining I made the Egyptians look "Black", in many cases implying I had confused them with the "Nubians" or Kushites.
Obviously none of these guys are specialists in Egyptology or bio-anthropology, so their commentary is not necessarily informative of what academics (even old racist ones like Coon) would think. And some of them could very well consider Northeast Africans a different "race" from West and Central Africans. But I will admit that for these trolls at least, merely darkening the Egyptian characters' skin color in that mod was enough to make them scream "Afrocentrism".
Again, I for one would say Northeast Africans are popularly considered to be somewhat related to "Black people" in Africa; they're just assumed to be hybrid between "pure Blacks" as seen in West and Central Africa and Middle Easterners. Hence all the speculation that any perceived overlap between their features and those of "Caucasoids" has to be the product of non-African admixture. Would public opinion of Northeast Africans' "Black" status change if people could be convinced that their peculiar range of phenotypes isn't necessarily all due to non-African genetic influences? I dunno.
posted
Why did you cut up the most relevant parts of this Kemp quote, and would you say that's slander, Carlos Oliver Coke? Am I lying Carlos? Let's get to the bottom of this, right now. Then, we can look at the other examples of your slander, breaches of privacy, etc, etc.
quote:you credit me with more knowledge and understanding of the subject than I have.
Simply because of the geographical position of the Nile Valley, intuitively one would expect a shading from north to south of genetic mix. But what does that mean? Ancient Egypt developed from a foundation of settled, farming communities whose way of life and, more particularly, style of farming originated in the Near East where it already had two or three thousand years of development behind it. Was this way of life brought by people or was it a set of practices that were adopted by indigenous communities? Its beginnings in Egypt are themselves not well documented. An early predynastic delta site, Tell el-Fara'in, has produced pottery that the experts say is Palestinian and it seems to belong to a northern culture that, in terms of its material culture, was somewhat separate from the south. But pots are not people, nor are they ideas, and so the significance remains obscure. --Kemp
What do you think the reaction would be if a Hollywood studio made a major film about ancient Egypt and used Ethiopians and Somalis?
Do you think there'd be no comments on their racial backgrounds?
Do you think the term 'black' would be mentioned in the press and online?
--------------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
| IP: Logged |
posted
What other emails did you tamper with Carlos? As a matter of fact, since you're so evasive, are these all real? I don't know, since you lie so much and refuse to own up to your tampering.
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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See what I mean about this boy's lies? The idiocy. The same fool who said I exhibited "pedo-ish" behaviour.
You've just gifted me another example of your stupidity, you really have.
quote:What other emails did you tamper with Carlos? As a matter of fact, since you're so evasive, are these all real? I don't know, since you lie so much and refuse to own up to your tampering.
-------------------------------- “Slander Willy? Whoever defames you? I see five pages of argument and five pages ( defensive , irritated and sometimes aggressive ) responses from you on what is brought forward. ”
Posts: 805 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2013
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1) You lie about your tampering (when you're not being evasive, that is) 2) You went on record excusing yourself to me for your mendacity in a private conversation. 3) You lie about your attempts to blackmail several people. 4) You lie about certain circumstances in which I deleted an individual from the FB group, to portray me a certain way. You were aware of the reasons why they were deleted, and when you discussed the incident here, you lied. Don't make me post the conversation, compulsive liar. 5) You lie about what happened in that Dutch thread you keep spamming. etc.
I could go on and on. You have no credibility. Given all these lies and the fact that you tampered with Kemp's emails, what is stopping anyone from being suspicious about where else you're tampering with quotes?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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